1 00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:15,920 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Greece all across America at this 2 00:00:16,239 --> 00:00:21,880 Speaker 1: very minute, people are going to McDonald's, whether you drive through, 3 00:00:22,200 --> 00:00:25,600 Speaker 1: or a diet coke or a decaf, whether you go 4 00:00:25,720 --> 00:00:30,280 Speaker 1: in for a big mac. That slogan sticks in everybody's 5 00:00:30,320 --> 00:00:33,800 Speaker 1: mind in the back to all be Patty special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, 6 00:00:33,800 --> 00:00:35,919 Speaker 1: and he's on a sesame seed bun. You can get 7 00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:39,600 Speaker 1: whatever you want there, but the shock of a lifetime 8 00:00:40,560 --> 00:00:47,280 Speaker 1: one McDonald's customer's got. It's something she'll never forget. I 9 00:00:47,400 --> 00:00:50,160 Speaker 1: Meanancy Grace, this is Crime Stories. Thank you for being 10 00:00:50,159 --> 00:00:54,120 Speaker 1: with us here at Fox Nation and Serious XM one eleven. 11 00:00:54,760 --> 00:00:58,440 Speaker 1: I very often told yourrs when I saw them cringe 12 00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:03,800 Speaker 1: or turn away, I felt the same way reviewing the evidence, 13 00:01:03,920 --> 00:01:08,240 Speaker 1: much less delivering the message to the jury. But I 14 00:01:08,319 --> 00:01:14,200 Speaker 1: begged them, do not turn away from the truth. Take 15 00:01:14,200 --> 00:01:18,360 Speaker 1: a listen to our friends at three TV and CBS five. 16 00:01:18,720 --> 00:01:21,800 Speaker 1: It's just as awful as you can imagine. Somebody inside 17 00:01:21,800 --> 00:01:25,319 Speaker 1: of that McDonald's restaurant found the child's body, and tonight, 18 00:01:25,360 --> 00:01:27,800 Speaker 1: with the help of surveillance video, please hope they can 19 00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:30,960 Speaker 1: catch mom. I was responsible. New video shows the women 20 00:01:31,040 --> 00:01:34,080 Speaker 1: police are looking for last scene wearing a black Calvin 21 00:01:34,120 --> 00:01:38,200 Speaker 1: Kleine's shirt, black pants and sandals, who left the bathroom 22 00:01:38,200 --> 00:01:41,440 Speaker 1: around the same time. Police say someone found a dead 23 00:01:41,520 --> 00:01:45,199 Speaker 1: newborn baby twenty four hours removed from a horrifying scene, 24 00:01:45,240 --> 00:01:49,000 Speaker 1: and the restaurant is still open with some people changing 25 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:51,480 Speaker 1: their lunch plans when we told them what happened. I 26 00:01:51,640 --> 00:01:55,200 Speaker 1: think somebody that would do that like that man. Wow. 27 00:01:55,400 --> 00:01:59,280 Speaker 1: Phoenix Police responded to the fast food locations Sunday afternoon 28 00:01:59,640 --> 00:02:02,960 Speaker 1: after someone inside the restaurant saw the dead newborn. It's 29 00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:05,280 Speaker 1: the scene that you can ever be prepared for, is 30 00:02:05,720 --> 00:02:09,640 Speaker 1: walking in somewhere and locating an infant, a newborn infant. 31 00:02:09,840 --> 00:02:13,359 Speaker 1: Heather Burner, with a National Safe Haven Alliance, says situations 32 00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:17,160 Speaker 1: like this should never happen, but it has. She counts 33 00:02:17,280 --> 00:02:21,359 Speaker 1: this as the eighth child abandonment this year across America. 34 00:02:21,600 --> 00:02:27,400 Speaker 1: That's our friend David called beano speaking guys. According to 35 00:02:27,440 --> 00:02:31,320 Speaker 1: one study, eight children abandoned. That's that we know of. 36 00:02:32,240 --> 00:02:39,720 Speaker 1: How many other children, babies, infants are either thrown away 37 00:02:39,760 --> 00:02:46,079 Speaker 1: in dumpsters or killed and abandoned, their bodies hidden somewhere. 38 00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:53,160 Speaker 1: It happens all the time. This time a tiny baby's 39 00:02:53,320 --> 00:02:59,480 Speaker 1: body found in a busy McDonald's. Again, I'm Nancy Grace. 40 00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:02,000 Speaker 1: This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. 41 00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:06,480 Speaker 1: You know, I was just talking about telling a jury 42 00:03:07,880 --> 00:03:11,480 Speaker 1: not to turn away from the evidence, but I actually did. 43 00:03:11,720 --> 00:03:14,960 Speaker 1: I let our friends at three TV and CBS five 44 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:20,960 Speaker 1: describe what happened, but I will now describe it. A 45 00:03:21,080 --> 00:03:27,560 Speaker 1: tiny baby found in a busy McDonald's near Phoenix, Arizona. 46 00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:33,080 Speaker 1: Video surveillance shows a woman walking out wearing a black 47 00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:41,560 Speaker 1: Calvin Cline T shirt, black tights. She has long, dark hair, 48 00:03:41,920 --> 00:03:46,000 Speaker 1: seems to me it may be frosted. She appears to 49 00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:51,080 Speaker 1: be a white female. What more do we know about her? 50 00:03:52,200 --> 00:03:56,480 Speaker 1: Not much, but I can guarantee you this, when this 51 00:03:56,600 --> 00:04:01,480 Speaker 1: picture is disseminated across the Americas, someone's going to recognize her. 52 00:04:02,600 --> 00:04:07,120 Speaker 1: And let me be clear, we are not discussing or 53 00:04:07,160 --> 00:04:12,280 Speaker 1: attacking the right to choose the debortion. That's a whole 54 00:04:12,320 --> 00:04:17,920 Speaker 1: another cannon worms. What we are talking about is delivering 55 00:04:18,040 --> 00:04:25,720 Speaker 1: a child, a healthy child, then murdering the child and 56 00:04:25,839 --> 00:04:30,760 Speaker 1: disposing of the body. Catherine marsh is joining US Special 57 00:04:30,839 --> 00:04:35,120 Speaker 1: Victims Liaison for State Attorney's Office in Charles County, con 58 00:04:35,279 --> 00:04:40,360 Speaker 1: founder of Right Response Counseling and the No Gray Zoned podcast, 59 00:04:41,120 --> 00:04:46,080 Speaker 1: also with me. Renowned psychoanalyst joining us from Beverly Hills, 60 00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:50,440 Speaker 1: doctor Bethany Marshall, not only renowned psychoanalysts, but star of 61 00:04:50,440 --> 00:04:55,800 Speaker 1: a new Netflix series, Bleeding Empire. Doctor Kendall Crowns joining 62 00:04:55,880 --> 00:04:59,880 Speaker 1: US Chief Medical Examiner Tarrant County. That's Fort Worth let 63 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:04,160 Speaker 1: Sure University Texas, Texas, A and M. Also faculty at 64 00:05:04,240 --> 00:05:09,640 Speaker 1: University Texas Medical Branch. Greg Schaeffer joining US investigator with 65 00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:14,600 Speaker 1: the international anti human trafficking organization Hope for Justice, A 66 00:05:14,640 --> 00:05:20,280 Speaker 1: former Phoenix PD detective twenty two years. But first, let's 67 00:05:20,279 --> 00:05:22,800 Speaker 1: go to special guest reporter with A twelve News Phoenix 68 00:05:22,880 --> 00:05:26,000 Speaker 1: Bianca Bono, Bianca, thank you for being with us. Tell 69 00:05:26,080 --> 00:05:28,599 Speaker 1: me what happened at the McDonald's. What do we know? 70 00:05:28,960 --> 00:05:31,880 Speaker 1: So what we know is that on March twenty seventh, 71 00:05:31,920 --> 00:05:35,920 Speaker 1: around two o'clock in the afternoon, in broad daylight. Okay, 72 00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:38,800 Speaker 1: wait a minute, you just stole my cash phrase and 73 00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:43,599 Speaker 1: broad daylight. I mean, that's a whole nother layer that 74 00:05:43,640 --> 00:05:50,320 Speaker 1: we're gonna throw at doctor Bethany Marshall. Will everybody statistically, mentally, psychologically, 75 00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:56,120 Speaker 1: broad daylight is a whole nother animal. That said, sorry, Bianca, 76 00:05:56,200 --> 00:06:00,600 Speaker 1: Bono twelve news, go ahead is no problem. So police 77 00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:04,960 Speaker 1: officers responded to that McDonald's restaurant near thirty third Avenue 78 00:06:05,360 --> 00:06:09,280 Speaker 1: and Indian School, about ten minutes northwest of downtown Phoenix, 79 00:06:09,880 --> 00:06:13,159 Speaker 1: to a call about an injured person, is what they said. 80 00:06:13,279 --> 00:06:17,240 Speaker 1: And when they showed up, they located a newborn baby 81 00:06:17,279 --> 00:06:21,039 Speaker 1: boy inside the bathroom of the McDonald's. We're told that 82 00:06:21,200 --> 00:06:24,880 Speaker 1: officers then attempted life saving measures, and then the Phoenix 83 00:06:25,040 --> 00:06:28,599 Speaker 1: Fire Department showed up and did the same, but unfortunately, 84 00:06:28,640 --> 00:06:32,920 Speaker 1: they pronounced that infant dead at the scene. Bianca, you've 85 00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:36,000 Speaker 1: got a ranking from the fire Hydrump. You're giving me 86 00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:41,159 Speaker 1: so much so quickly, I can't digest it. I've got 87 00:06:41,240 --> 00:06:44,080 Speaker 1: a breakdown every sentence you said. Oh, you gave me 88 00:06:44,120 --> 00:06:47,679 Speaker 1: a flashback to law school. I was a Shakespearean literature 89 00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:51,600 Speaker 1: major when I got a hold of my first US 90 00:06:51,680 --> 00:06:55,760 Speaker 1: Supreme Court decision. One sentence can be a paragraph. I 91 00:06:55,760 --> 00:06:58,719 Speaker 1: would have to dissect each part of the sentence to 92 00:06:58,880 --> 00:07:03,040 Speaker 1: understand what they were saying. Okay, let's take let's take 93 00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:06,320 Speaker 1: an analysis. Let's analyze what Bionka Bono has just told us, 94 00:07:06,520 --> 00:07:10,600 Speaker 1: first of you, doctor Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst. Doctor Bethany, you're 95 00:07:10,680 --> 00:07:18,160 Speaker 1: throwing away at newborn baby boy, an infant dead, And 96 00:07:18,320 --> 00:07:19,800 Speaker 1: of course I'm going to come back to you, doctor 97 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:22,720 Speaker 1: Kendall Crowns on how long had the baby been dead? 98 00:07:22,760 --> 00:07:26,640 Speaker 1: How do we know could have just died? All that, 99 00:07:26,760 --> 00:07:29,040 Speaker 1: I'm going to come back to you. To Greg Sheffer, 100 00:07:29,440 --> 00:07:32,880 Speaker 1: how often is this kind of crime, a murder affected 101 00:07:32,960 --> 00:07:36,200 Speaker 1: in daylight hours, in broad in plain view. But to 102 00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:42,600 Speaker 1: doctor Bethany Marshall, I mean, no shame, no shame. I mean, 103 00:07:42,640 --> 00:07:45,200 Speaker 1: there's one thing, dumping a baby in a dumpster out 104 00:07:45,240 --> 00:07:49,840 Speaker 1: behind a building at midnight, which is bad enough, But 105 00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:55,480 Speaker 1: to have the khonies to walk into a McDonald's in 106 00:07:55,680 --> 00:07:58,800 Speaker 1: broad daylight when people are in there ordering their cheeseburgers, 107 00:07:58,880 --> 00:08:01,280 Speaker 1: or is David and I deuces, we don't drink soda 108 00:08:01,320 --> 00:08:05,720 Speaker 1: at home, A sneaky DCA. I mean, they're in there 109 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:11,000 Speaker 1: and she walks in with a dead baby and leaves 110 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:14,360 Speaker 1: it in the bathroom. There's so many layers. Just let's 111 00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:16,920 Speaker 1: start with broad daylight. Nancy. There's a lot of layers. 112 00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:19,520 Speaker 1: There's so much to say about this. I mean primarily 113 00:08:19,600 --> 00:08:24,680 Speaker 1: to say layers to the onion's that's very old. Please 114 00:08:24,720 --> 00:08:27,800 Speaker 1: don't okay, go, Okay, Well, then let's start with the 115 00:08:27,840 --> 00:08:32,400 Speaker 1: fact that this woman probably never bonded with this baby, 116 00:08:32,520 --> 00:08:36,720 Speaker 1: even in utero, even at conception that something happened in 117 00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:40,000 Speaker 1: this woman's life. Have you have you looked at up 118 00:08:40,640 --> 00:08:43,920 Speaker 1: because very often people ask me, what are you looking 119 00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:48,240 Speaker 1: down at? Well, for the longest time at HLN, they 120 00:08:48,240 --> 00:08:51,760 Speaker 1: had installed, as you know, Bethany a baby, a baby 121 00:08:51,840 --> 00:08:54,320 Speaker 1: cam so I could see the children because I couldn't 122 00:08:54,520 --> 00:08:56,680 Speaker 1: bear to be away from them at night. I remember 123 00:08:56,800 --> 00:09:01,200 Speaker 1: the man cam. It was actually part of the disk. Okay, 124 00:09:01,720 --> 00:09:03,480 Speaker 1: I look at them on one side and on the 125 00:09:03,520 --> 00:09:05,480 Speaker 1: other side, I would look at pictures. That's what I'm 126 00:09:05,520 --> 00:09:08,320 Speaker 1: looking at right now. I'm looking at a picture of 127 00:09:08,400 --> 00:09:11,640 Speaker 1: her walking out in the black tides, down to the ankle, 128 00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:15,600 Speaker 1: some brown sandals. Okay, I'm not sure, but I believe 129 00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:20,640 Speaker 1: she's got a pedicure, a black T shirt that says 130 00:09:20,679 --> 00:09:25,240 Speaker 1: Calvin Kleine something under it. She's got hair just below 131 00:09:25,280 --> 00:09:30,200 Speaker 1: her shoulders. Oh, it's definitely frosted, dark maybe light brown, 132 00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:34,320 Speaker 1: hair parted I think kind of in the middle it's long, 133 00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:39,240 Speaker 1: and from about the eye level down it looks like 134 00:09:39,280 --> 00:09:42,840 Speaker 1: it's been frosted a little bit. That's what I'm looking at. Okay, 135 00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:46,520 Speaker 1: go ahead, m well, Nancy. In order to assess the situation, 136 00:09:46,640 --> 00:09:49,800 Speaker 1: we could look historically, what happened when she was impregnated, 137 00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:53,800 Speaker 1: what happened in terms of her family relationships. Why during 138 00:09:53,840 --> 00:09:56,600 Speaker 1: the day, Why is she waddling When I was looking 139 00:09:56,640 --> 00:09:59,200 Speaker 1: at the video you're looking at it looks like she's 140 00:09:59,240 --> 00:10:03,480 Speaker 1: kind of w budding into the McDonald's and she's waddling out. 141 00:10:03,760 --> 00:10:06,080 Speaker 1: And it's hard to know from the security camera what 142 00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:09,920 Speaker 1: the time laps is between when she enters the bathroom 143 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:12,160 Speaker 1: and when she aches it. So I have no idea 144 00:10:12,240 --> 00:10:16,640 Speaker 1: because I'm a non medical psychoanalyst. Did she give birth 145 00:10:16,640 --> 00:10:19,320 Speaker 1: in the bathroom or did she carry the baby in 146 00:10:19,480 --> 00:10:22,120 Speaker 1: These are so many questions for other guests, But what 147 00:10:22,160 --> 00:10:26,160 Speaker 1: I will say from a psychodynamic perspective is that this 148 00:10:26,280 --> 00:10:28,559 Speaker 1: is a woman. While she may have been motivated by 149 00:10:28,600 --> 00:10:33,880 Speaker 1: criminality and being homicidal, she likely never bonded with the baby. 150 00:10:34,040 --> 00:10:38,199 Speaker 1: And a large recent study of women who secretly abandoned 151 00:10:38,240 --> 00:10:41,040 Speaker 1: their babies, one of the things that was learned is 152 00:10:41,040 --> 00:10:43,720 Speaker 1: that these women have a great deal of shame about 153 00:10:43,760 --> 00:10:47,360 Speaker 1: the pregnancy. They do not bond with the baby from 154 00:10:47,400 --> 00:10:52,080 Speaker 1: the time of conception. There's often intimate partner violence, poor 155 00:10:52,240 --> 00:11:00,720 Speaker 1: levels of parental support, appolling, lack of prenatal care play. 156 00:11:01,840 --> 00:11:07,960 Speaker 1: I know, I know to go with that fine, because 157 00:11:08,679 --> 00:11:14,160 Speaker 1: doctor Bessani, I'm not asking you about the historical analysis 158 00:11:14,320 --> 00:11:16,920 Speaker 1: of her impregnation. I believe you said that when she 159 00:11:16,960 --> 00:11:20,240 Speaker 1: got pregnant, because I don't care, and I don't care 160 00:11:20,280 --> 00:11:24,200 Speaker 1: what her family situation is, if she did not want 161 00:11:24,240 --> 00:11:28,520 Speaker 1: to commit murder, um don't If don't you have a 162 00:11:28,679 --> 00:11:35,000 Speaker 1: very unfettered pro choice position in Arizona. Bianca Bono, the 163 00:11:35,120 --> 00:11:39,120 Speaker 1: position is actually largely pro life in Arizona. You do 164 00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:41,840 Speaker 1: you do? You have abortion laws there? I mean, can 165 00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:52,040 Speaker 1: a woman get an abortion there? She can't. Spring Breakers 166 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:55,720 Speaker 1: and parents beware the disappearance of honor student Natalie Holloway 167 00:11:55,880 --> 00:11:58,840 Speaker 1: is a warning. We had to Aruba with Natalie's mom. 168 00:11:58,920 --> 00:12:02,679 Speaker 1: What can we learn? Nancy Grace's shocking new investigation streaming 169 00:12:02,720 --> 00:12:11,800 Speaker 1: now only on Fox Nation. Sign up today Crime Stories 170 00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:18,240 Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace to Katherine Mars joining me special victim's Liaison, 171 00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:22,560 Speaker 1: I'm not taking a position for or against abortion. Right now, 172 00:12:22,840 --> 00:12:25,840 Speaker 1: I'm not discussing pro choice or pro life right now. 173 00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:31,520 Speaker 1: I am discussing murdering a baby right now. You give 174 00:12:31,520 --> 00:12:34,640 Speaker 1: birth to the baby and then you murder it. Why 175 00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:39,720 Speaker 1: would you inflict that pain on a newborn infant? I 176 00:12:39,760 --> 00:12:42,160 Speaker 1: don't organ it, Catherine Well, I think it's a hard 177 00:12:42,200 --> 00:12:44,440 Speaker 1: thing for any of us to wrap our mind around. 178 00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:47,560 Speaker 1: But as prosecutors, the first thing we have to establish 179 00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:51,440 Speaker 1: is was the baby born alive or was it a 180 00:12:51,520 --> 00:12:55,160 Speaker 1: stillborn birth? In order for us to get to that 181 00:12:55,320 --> 00:13:01,120 Speaker 1: homicide murder component for court. Okay, you know, you just 182 00:13:01,160 --> 00:13:04,880 Speaker 1: you're giving me another flashback, because if you're giving birth 183 00:13:04,880 --> 00:13:08,360 Speaker 1: to a baby and the baby is stillborn, why would 184 00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:12,320 Speaker 1: you just not call nine one one? Why? Because that's 185 00:13:12,360 --> 00:13:14,800 Speaker 1: what I would do if I had suddenly given birth 186 00:13:14,840 --> 00:13:16,920 Speaker 1: and the baby was still born, I would call nine 187 00:13:16,960 --> 00:13:19,520 Speaker 1: one one and try to revive the baby. I would 188 00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:22,760 Speaker 1: not put in a bag and dump it. Also, the 189 00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:26,200 Speaker 1: fact that nobody is identifying this woman tells me nobody 190 00:13:26,240 --> 00:13:29,760 Speaker 1: knews she was pregnant, which means she likely concealed her pregnancy. 191 00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:35,680 Speaker 1: Another indicator to doctor Kendall, Crown's chief medical examiner, Tarrant County. 192 00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:40,480 Speaker 1: How can we tell if the baby was alive or stillborn? Well, 193 00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:42,920 Speaker 1: the main thing you can do is you take the 194 00:13:43,200 --> 00:13:46,640 Speaker 1: infant flungs and you placed them in like water, and 195 00:13:46,679 --> 00:13:49,640 Speaker 1: if they float, it shows that they had taken a 196 00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:53,120 Speaker 1: breath and filled their lungs with the air. Also, you 197 00:13:53,160 --> 00:13:56,920 Speaker 1: can look at it histologically or under the microscope looking 198 00:13:57,080 --> 00:14:00,560 Speaker 1: for the actual air sex to show expansion. And those 199 00:14:00,559 --> 00:14:03,920 Speaker 1: are the two kind of rough indicators for them to 200 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:06,360 Speaker 1: have taken a breath. They're not exact, but they're the 201 00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:10,120 Speaker 1: best we have. Doctor Kendall Crowns, I'm just a j 202 00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:13,480 Speaker 1: D or the MD. Did you say that one more time? 203 00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:16,600 Speaker 1: And very slowly forming place. So the ways you can 204 00:14:16,679 --> 00:14:19,840 Speaker 1: tell if an infant has taken a breath at breath 205 00:14:19,960 --> 00:14:23,120 Speaker 1: that wasn't born as still born as you can take 206 00:14:23,160 --> 00:14:25,880 Speaker 1: the lungs out of the body cavity and so you 207 00:14:25,880 --> 00:14:30,560 Speaker 1: have an autopsy. Yes, yes, were the big gigantic cut 208 00:14:30,640 --> 00:14:33,680 Speaker 1: the v from the shoulders going mid white in a 209 00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:40,560 Speaker 1: straight down like a giant y. Right Go ahead, pluck 210 00:14:40,640 --> 00:14:43,680 Speaker 1: the skin away, cut the chest plate off, then take 211 00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:46,000 Speaker 1: the lungs out and then he placed the lungs in 212 00:14:46,240 --> 00:14:49,240 Speaker 1: a jar of water, and if they float, it shows 213 00:14:49,280 --> 00:14:51,880 Speaker 1: that the lungs had had air in them, were filled 214 00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:55,200 Speaker 1: with air. You can also cut the lungs up and 215 00:14:55,320 --> 00:14:58,280 Speaker 1: take small portions of them and look at them under 216 00:14:58,280 --> 00:15:02,560 Speaker 1: a microscope and they you'll see under the microscope that 217 00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:06,040 Speaker 1: the air sacks or the alveolol have filled with air, 218 00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:09,720 Speaker 1: showing that they took the breath. You know. Greg Shaeffer, 219 00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:14,080 Speaker 1: investigator with the international anti human trafficking organization Hope for 220 00:15:14,200 --> 00:15:20,600 Speaker 1: Justice and former Phoenix PD twenty two years and Crimes 221 00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:26,400 Speaker 1: on Children. Just hearing doctor Kendall Crowns, it's very sobering. 222 00:15:26,880 --> 00:15:32,239 Speaker 1: It's very sobering to think of a tiny baby undergoing autopsy, 223 00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:35,360 Speaker 1: having its lungs removed and putting them in a jar 224 00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:40,360 Speaker 1: of water to see if mommy murdered it. It's kind 225 00:15:40,360 --> 00:15:44,720 Speaker 1: of overwhelming. Well, yeah, obviously it's disturbing, and just like 226 00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:47,240 Speaker 1: we already talked about, there was no connection to the 227 00:15:47,360 --> 00:15:51,840 Speaker 1: child and that's why she allegedly she left it in 228 00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:56,680 Speaker 1: the McDonald's. But what's really sad is that there's four 229 00:15:57,160 --> 00:16:00,440 Speaker 1: fire stations within five minutes of that location. They're all 230 00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:04,560 Speaker 1: safe havens, and there's three hospitals within fifteen minutes of 231 00:16:04,680 --> 00:16:07,640 Speaker 1: that location, which were all safe havens as well, So 232 00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:09,760 Speaker 1: that child could have been delivered to any one of 233 00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:14,520 Speaker 1: those places, no questions asked, no questions asked, the baby 234 00:16:14,560 --> 00:16:16,960 Speaker 1: could I had researched that, and I found safe havens 235 00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:19,400 Speaker 1: less than ten minutes away from the McDonald's where the 236 00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:23,800 Speaker 1: baby was left. You're saying it's actually five minutes. Five minutes, yeah, 237 00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:27,880 Speaker 1: Well there's four fire stations right around that McDonald I 238 00:16:27,960 --> 00:16:31,080 Speaker 1: used to work in Maryville right there, so there's four 239 00:16:31,160 --> 00:16:35,640 Speaker 1: fire stations there, three hospitals less than fifteen minutes away, 240 00:16:36,280 --> 00:16:40,240 Speaker 1: one of them Phoenix Children's Hospital. So the child could 241 00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:43,640 Speaker 1: have been taken to a facility and turned over and 242 00:16:43,720 --> 00:16:46,800 Speaker 1: no questions asked, anonymous, And she could have been on 243 00:16:46,840 --> 00:16:52,160 Speaker 1: her way, but she chose this route. It's unfortunate. I 244 00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:55,080 Speaker 1: think down the road, you know she's going to get 245 00:16:55,120 --> 00:16:58,920 Speaker 1: identified and they'll probably go she's gonna get identified. Speaking 246 00:16:59,040 --> 00:17:02,280 Speaker 1: of safe haven take us an our cut too again. 247 00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:07,280 Speaker 1: This is David Kultbiano with RETV and CBS five. Arizona 248 00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:10,399 Speaker 1: law let's parents who are loved ones surrender unharmed babies 249 00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:13,359 Speaker 1: who are up to thirty days old to police departments, 250 00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:17,440 Speaker 1: fire stations, and hospitals without repercussion. Heather says, there are 251 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:20,760 Speaker 1: plenty of resources to avoid this crime. The saddest part 252 00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:23,560 Speaker 1: of all of this is that they don't have any choices. 253 00:17:23,560 --> 00:17:26,800 Speaker 1: They are at the whim or will of their parents. 254 00:17:27,040 --> 00:17:30,160 Speaker 1: It's traumatic, I think, because we know there are so 255 00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:33,439 Speaker 1: many options now, there are so many safe alternatives to 256 00:17:34,080 --> 00:17:37,760 Speaker 1: placing your baby in an unsafe or dangerous situation. Back 257 00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:40,440 Speaker 1: to this, McDonald's safe havens are less than a ten 258 00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:43,679 Speaker 1: minute drive away. Now people in this area want to 259 00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:46,879 Speaker 1: see an arrest. Another look at this security camp video 260 00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:50,760 Speaker 1: of the woman police are searching for. Okay, let's talk 261 00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:54,359 Speaker 1: about that. How are we gonna find the mom? And 262 00:17:54,800 --> 00:17:58,480 Speaker 1: to you Bianca Bono joining us from twelve News and Phoenix. 263 00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:04,640 Speaker 1: Has there been any speculation that the child had just 264 00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:10,800 Speaker 1: died or was still alive in the bathroom or is 265 00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:13,400 Speaker 1: it believed the child was dead when she brought it in. 266 00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:17,719 Speaker 1: That's the big question that we're still waiting to get answered. 267 00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:20,400 Speaker 1: But what I can tell you is more of what 268 00:18:20,520 --> 00:18:24,200 Speaker 1: police told us initially when they notified the public about 269 00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:27,800 Speaker 1: this incident. They told us that they did locate the 270 00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:31,439 Speaker 1: newborn baby boy inside the bathroom, and they said that 271 00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:35,280 Speaker 1: they did attempt life saving measures, and then the scene's 272 00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:38,080 Speaker 1: fire department showed up and did the same. I have 273 00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:42,639 Speaker 1: read a tiny portion of the police report that says 274 00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:47,639 Speaker 1: the boy was pronounced dead at the scene. Anyone with 275 00:18:47,760 --> 00:18:52,000 Speaker 1: information is asked asked to contact Silent Witness at four 276 00:18:52,240 --> 00:18:59,320 Speaker 1: eight zero Witness WI t N E SS for eight zero. 277 00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:05,760 Speaker 1: For those of you just joining us, A newborn infant, 278 00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:10,720 Speaker 1: a baby boy, has been found dead at a very 279 00:19:10,760 --> 00:19:17,680 Speaker 1: busy McDonald's in the last months. It's the second time 280 00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:21,119 Speaker 1: that a child has been abandon Take a listen to 281 00:19:21,119 --> 00:19:25,000 Speaker 1: our cut four our friends at kpn X twelve. In 282 00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:28,560 Speaker 1: twenty nineteen, another infant was found in the bathroom trash 283 00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:31,600 Speaker 1: can at an Amazon warehouse. The mother in that case 284 00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:34,760 Speaker 1: later telling officials she didn't know she was pregnant and 285 00:19:34,840 --> 00:19:38,240 Speaker 1: had given birth to a stillborn. She was not prosecuted. 286 00:19:38,359 --> 00:19:40,920 Speaker 1: In the US this year, in twenty twenty two, there 287 00:19:40,960 --> 00:19:44,480 Speaker 1: have been eight illegal abandonments. For some reason, we are 288 00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:46,919 Speaker 1: seeing that there are a lot of these cases right 289 00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:50,480 Speaker 1: now in Arizona. There are options. Infants can be brought 290 00:19:50,520 --> 00:19:54,159 Speaker 1: to a designated safe haven location like hospitals and fire 291 00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:58,639 Speaker 1: departments up to thirty days after birth. Why didn't that 292 00:19:58,760 --> 00:20:02,200 Speaker 1: happen here now in the case, since this is becoming 293 00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:05,480 Speaker 1: the point of our discussion. In the case of the 294 00:20:05,560 --> 00:20:11,080 Speaker 1: mother in twenty nineteen, that child was determined to have 295 00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:16,159 Speaker 1: been born still born, still a crime to disposed of 296 00:20:16,320 --> 00:20:22,760 Speaker 1: human body, but in this case we have no indication 297 00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:28,679 Speaker 1: this baby was still born. It's not by far the 298 00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:32,439 Speaker 1: first time this has happened. Take a listen to our 299 00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:37,760 Speaker 1: friends at Station fifteen on the Allison lightsh case. Now 300 00:20:37,800 --> 00:20:41,119 Speaker 1: at six day in court, a young mother who abandoned 301 00:20:41,119 --> 00:20:44,800 Speaker 1: her infant inside a dumpster is formally charged with attempted murder. 302 00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:47,480 Speaker 1: Good evening, I'm Heather Heren, I'm Mark Bellinger. Thanks for 303 00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:51,320 Speaker 1: joining us. Alison Lesh is nineteen. She was emotional as 304 00:20:51,359 --> 00:20:54,480 Speaker 1: she appeared in Decalp Superior Court this afternoon where she 305 00:20:54,680 --> 00:20:57,560 Speaker 1: entered a plea of not guilty. News Channel fifteen Janie 306 00:20:57,600 --> 00:21:00,240 Speaker 1: Allen was inside the courtroom and joins us. Now the 307 00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:03,280 Speaker 1: courthouse with the latest well Mark and had there. Alison 308 00:21:03,359 --> 00:21:05,800 Speaker 1: lesh gets face up to fifty years behind bars for 309 00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:09,040 Speaker 1: attempt and murder. She allegedly gave birth and then threw 310 00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:12,040 Speaker 1: her newborn baby away like trash, and tonight we are 311 00:21:12,119 --> 00:21:16,120 Speaker 1: learning new shocking details about how she did it. Alison 312 00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:18,000 Speaker 1: will tell us what happened. People want to know your 313 00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:22,280 Speaker 1: side of the story. Nineteen year old Alison Lesh didn't 314 00:21:22,280 --> 00:21:24,480 Speaker 1: have anything to say to our cameras as she made 315 00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:27,600 Speaker 1: her way to Declp Superior Court, but she did become 316 00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:31,080 Speaker 1: emotional as she neared the door inside. She was formally 317 00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:34,960 Speaker 1: charged with attempted murder for allegedly wrapping her newborn baby 318 00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:38,240 Speaker 1: girl inside a trash bag and tossing her inside a dumpster. 319 00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:41,359 Speaker 1: Lesh had only been living here at Forest Point Apartments 320 00:21:41,359 --> 00:21:44,199 Speaker 1: in Auburn for about a month, and court documents are 321 00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:46,520 Speaker 1: now shutting some light on the hours leading up to 322 00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:49,800 Speaker 1: the discovery of her baby. They say Lush delivered the 323 00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:53,159 Speaker 1: baby inside her bedroom late Saturday night. She then wrapped 324 00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:55,359 Speaker 1: the newborn in a blanket and left her on the 325 00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:58,440 Speaker 1: floor while she cleaned up the mass, showered, and tried 326 00:21:58,480 --> 00:22:01,560 Speaker 1: to go to sleep. According to those documents, the next day, 327 00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:03,960 Speaker 1: she put the baby in a trash bag and into 328 00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:06,919 Speaker 1: the dumpster as she left for work. You know, to you, 329 00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:11,000 Speaker 1: doctor Bethany Marshall, we keep seeing the same scenario putting 330 00:22:11,040 --> 00:22:14,880 Speaker 1: the baby in a blanket then a trash bag. The 331 00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:21,440 Speaker 1: dichotomy of wrapping an infant in a baby blanket and 332 00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:25,960 Speaker 1: then putting it in a black trash bag and a dumpster. 333 00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:30,760 Speaker 1: It is very disturbing, Yes it is. And you know 334 00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:35,320 Speaker 1: what it shows me is actual contempt and hatred for 335 00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:38,640 Speaker 1: the child and actually prioritizing the needs of the mother 336 00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:40,480 Speaker 1: over that of the child. I know that's going to 337 00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:43,720 Speaker 1: sound strange, but think about what motherhood is all about. 338 00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:47,880 Speaker 1: When we're a mother, the child's needs are more important 339 00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:50,080 Speaker 1: than anybody else on the face of the planet, and 340 00:22:50,119 --> 00:22:53,080 Speaker 1: they're more important than our own needs. And contrast that 341 00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:56,679 Speaker 1: to double triple wrapping the child like you would a 342 00:22:56,720 --> 00:23:00,280 Speaker 1: piece of putred trash in order to hide the child 343 00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:02,320 Speaker 1: and put the child in the dumpster. So what that 344 00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:06,000 Speaker 1: mother is doing is she's trying to secrete the child 345 00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:09,080 Speaker 1: so she won't be caught. It's all about her. It's 346 00:23:09,119 --> 00:23:13,560 Speaker 1: the most profound act of selfishness. And layer that with 347 00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:16,560 Speaker 1: the fact that this woman we're talking about did it 348 00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:20,760 Speaker 1: during the day. Either that's when her labor was complete, 349 00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:22,720 Speaker 1: she went into labor and it was time for her 350 00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:26,159 Speaker 1: to deliver, or there were people in her life who 351 00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:29,480 Speaker 1: would have found out she was pregnant. So she waited 352 00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:33,920 Speaker 1: until her boyfriend, her parents, siblings, people were at work 353 00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:36,440 Speaker 1: and they wouldn't find out, and that's when she went 354 00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:39,439 Speaker 1: and did it. And to me, that's what adds the 355 00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:44,960 Speaker 1: layer of criminality, is waiting until everybody else is a way, 356 00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:48,560 Speaker 1: so that you do it secretly. There's two kinds of abandonments. 357 00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:52,240 Speaker 1: There's open abandonment where you kind of just you leave 358 00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:54,680 Speaker 1: the child with a babysitter, you take off, you never 359 00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:57,560 Speaker 1: contact the babysitter, or you leave them, leave your child 360 00:23:57,560 --> 00:24:00,200 Speaker 1: with the grandparents and then you leave the country. That's 361 00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:03,160 Speaker 1: an open abandonment. Then there's a secret one. It's when 362 00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:06,080 Speaker 1: you secrete the infant away, you kill the child, or 363 00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:08,639 Speaker 1: there's a stillborn like we talked about, you put the 364 00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:11,399 Speaker 1: child in a dumpster or in a trash can, and 365 00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:15,919 Speaker 1: at that point the child is so devalued, such a 366 00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:18,600 Speaker 1: nothing in the mind of the infant of the mother 367 00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:21,960 Speaker 1: that it turns the whole idea of motherhood on its 368 00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:26,320 Speaker 1: head and it's really a disgusting act. Nancy. The phenomena 369 00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:30,760 Speaker 1: of killing your baby at birth was brought to the 370 00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:35,480 Speaker 1: forefront with the case of the so called prom mom 371 00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:40,520 Speaker 1: Melissa Drexler, who at her prom goes into the bathroom, 372 00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:46,320 Speaker 1: gives birth, goes back onto the dance floor, and special 373 00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:53,639 Speaker 1: requests the song Unforgiven take a listen to our cut 374 00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:57,640 Speaker 1: b this is Unreasonable Doubt podcast. Upon arriving to the whole, 375 00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:01,880 Speaker 1: she soon fled to the bathroom. Concerned friends followed Melissa 376 00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:04,680 Speaker 1: and started to wait outside the toilet stool she had 377 00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:08,560 Speaker 1: barricaded herself into to get rid of her peers. She said, 378 00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:13,000 Speaker 1: go tell the boys, I'll be right out. Within just 379 00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:18,040 Speaker 1: thirty minutes, Melissa Draxsled delivered a healthy, six pound baby 380 00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:22,880 Speaker 1: boy alive. He cut the umbilical cord on the edge 381 00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:26,760 Speaker 1: of the metal sanitary waistbin inside the toilet stool. He 382 00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:29,879 Speaker 1: then took her baby out of the toilet, wrapped a 383 00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:33,440 Speaker 1: series of garbage bags around him, placed him inside into 384 00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:36,520 Speaker 1: the garbage bag, and then threw him into the trash. Can. 385 00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:42,840 Speaker 1: I mean that's a whole another layer of guilt in 386 00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:45,800 Speaker 1: my mind. Let's go out to Katherine Mars joining me 387 00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:50,080 Speaker 1: Special Victims Liaison State Attorney's Office. Katherine. There, she goes 388 00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:54,440 Speaker 1: out on the dance dooor continues to dance to Metallica's unforgiven. Absolutely. 389 00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:59,680 Speaker 1: It certainly goes to show intent, state of mind, and 390 00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:03,840 Speaker 1: quite frankly, just how callous she was in the abandonment 391 00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:07,719 Speaker 1: in that of the child after she gives birth. The 392 00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:10,639 Speaker 1: fact that she could cut the umbilical cord, wrap the 393 00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:13,080 Speaker 1: child and then take the child to the trash, those 394 00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:17,520 Speaker 1: are all steps that go to the premeditation and laying 395 00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:19,879 Speaker 1: every single bit of it out in front of a jury. 396 00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:24,600 Speaker 1: To Bianca Bona, a reporter with Knees twelve in Phoenix, 397 00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:28,720 Speaker 1: that's a really good surveillance video. I find it very 398 00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:31,680 Speaker 1: hard to believe she has not been identified yet. Where 399 00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:37,280 Speaker 1: has this been disseminated. It's been disseminated all over the 400 00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:40,200 Speaker 1: Greater Phoenix area and actually really across the entire state 401 00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:43,480 Speaker 1: of Arizona. And you're right, the video is crystal clear, 402 00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:46,880 Speaker 1: and it's a long video as well, so you get 403 00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:49,240 Speaker 1: a really good look at her top to bottom as 404 00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:53,160 Speaker 1: she goes to walk into the bathroom, attempts to open 405 00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:56,320 Speaker 1: the door a first time and it's locked, and then 406 00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:59,960 Speaker 1: goes back up second time. So it's a fairly long video. 407 00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:03,280 Speaker 1: So as of the latest information we have from police, 408 00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:06,600 Speaker 1: she hasn't been identified, but they're doing so much behind 409 00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:09,280 Speaker 1: the scenes, so I wouldn't be shocked if they already 410 00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:11,639 Speaker 1: know who this person is, you know. Another issue is 411 00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:15,720 Speaker 1: McDonald's has surveillance video on the inside, video surveillance cams 412 00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:19,480 Speaker 1: on the inside and the outside. To Greg Cheffer, I 413 00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:22,240 Speaker 1: find it really difficult to believe that there is not 414 00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:26,160 Speaker 1: video of her leaving getting into some kind of a car, 415 00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:30,480 Speaker 1: even if you can't see the tag, which I believe 416 00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:33,399 Speaker 1: in Arizona you have tag on the front and the back, 417 00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:37,040 Speaker 1: not just the back as in many states. But even 418 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:40,840 Speaker 1: if you can't see the tag, you can get the model, make, 419 00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:43,960 Speaker 1: and color of the car, figure out how many people 420 00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:48,080 Speaker 1: in that area have that car. That's not hard to do. 421 00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:51,720 Speaker 1: Then cross reference to driver's license once you get title 422 00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:55,200 Speaker 1: and registration. I mean, it takes a minute. It takes 423 00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:59,640 Speaker 1: somebody to sit down and do that research. But that's 424 00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:03,480 Speaker 1: how to do it right. Well, Like like she said, 425 00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:05,800 Speaker 1: they're probably doing a lot of that behind the scenes. 426 00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:09,080 Speaker 1: They're probably they probably grabbed all the footage and then 427 00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:12,520 Speaker 1: an entire square right there and they're going through it 428 00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:15,640 Speaker 1: doing that. I think there's a Costco right over there too, 429 00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:19,159 Speaker 1: and Costco usually has really good footage as well. Oh oh, 430 00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:22,800 Speaker 1: I imagine they're doing that across the street. Really, Oh, 431 00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:25,720 Speaker 1: it's in a parking lot. There's a big, huge right 432 00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:28,760 Speaker 1: there near thirty third Avenue in Indian School Road. I mean, 433 00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:31,879 Speaker 1: you know, Greg Cheffer, cost need to be all over 434 00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:36,440 Speaker 1: that surveillance video, including if it goes into residential which 435 00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:40,760 Speaker 1: I'm not sure of, the terrain ring, doorbell cams or 436 00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:44,680 Speaker 1: something similar to them, surveillance video in all of the businesses, 437 00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:48,000 Speaker 1: as you just said, a Costco they have an excellent 438 00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:54,120 Speaker 1: video surveillance and not only that, red light cams aren't great. 439 00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:58,560 Speaker 1: They're specifically there to get your tag number. I wonder 440 00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:01,520 Speaker 1: if all that is being done the Acabono. I would 441 00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:04,720 Speaker 1: imagine that it is. And it's worth noting that this 442 00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:07,080 Speaker 1: is an area where there's a lot of foot traffic 443 00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:11,680 Speaker 1: as well, So it's unclear if she drove to that mcdonald' 444 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:15,680 Speaker 1: they're walked up, But like the detective just said, it's 445 00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:18,320 Speaker 1: a very busy area and there are a lot of 446 00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:22,040 Speaker 1: businesses around that McDonald So you know, we only have 447 00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:25,680 Speaker 1: this one video clip from inside, but that's because that's 448 00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:27,840 Speaker 1: all that's been shared with the public. So I would 449 00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:30,680 Speaker 1: imagine there's a lot more surveillance video that's being come 450 00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:34,680 Speaker 1: through this on the heels of another knee born being abandoned, 451 00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:37,440 Speaker 1: a mystery as a baby is actually left on the 452 00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:42,960 Speaker 1: hood of a part car in Connecticut as cops hunt 453 00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:48,000 Speaker 1: for the man. We believe the dad fleeing the scene 454 00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:52,520 Speaker 1: in a dark colored vehicle. That just happened, and now 455 00:29:52,840 --> 00:30:11,120 Speaker 1: this across the country in Arizona Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. 456 00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:17,800 Speaker 1: For most of you just joining us, take a listen 457 00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:21,840 Speaker 1: to our cut one David Caltabiano at three TV. It's 458 00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:24,720 Speaker 1: just as awful as you can imagine. Somebody inside of 459 00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:28,320 Speaker 1: that McDonald's restaurant found the child's body, and tonight, with 460 00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:30,920 Speaker 1: the help of surveillance video, please hope they can catch 461 00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:34,240 Speaker 1: while I was responsible. New video shows the women police 462 00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:37,720 Speaker 1: are looking for last scene, wearing a black Calvin Klein's shirt, 463 00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:41,520 Speaker 1: black pants and sandals, who left the bathroom around the 464 00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:45,240 Speaker 1: same time police say someone found a dead newborn baby. 465 00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:48,320 Speaker 1: Twenty four hours removed from a horrifying scene, and the 466 00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:52,400 Speaker 1: restaurant is still open with some people changing their lunch 467 00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:55,080 Speaker 1: plans when we told them what happened. I think somebody 468 00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:59,600 Speaker 1: they would do that like that. Wow. Phoenix police responded 469 00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:03,600 Speaker 1: to the as Food locations Sunday afternoon after someone inside 470 00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:06,280 Speaker 1: the restaurant saw the dead newborn. It's the scene that 471 00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:09,560 Speaker 1: you can ever be prepared for, is walking in somewhere 472 00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:13,520 Speaker 1: and locating an infant, a newborn infant. Heather Burner, with 473 00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:17,280 Speaker 1: a National Safe Haven Alliance, says situations like this should 474 00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:20,720 Speaker 1: never happen, but it has. She counts this as the 475 00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:24,880 Speaker 1: eighth child abandonment this year across America. It may have 476 00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:30,160 Speaker 1: nothing to do with the mother's background, think about it. 477 00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:34,760 Speaker 1: I remember one of the first cases that gained national 478 00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:37,920 Speaker 1: notoriety in addition to all of suddrects with the so 479 00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:41,360 Speaker 1: called prom mom, who I now understand is out of 480 00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:45,080 Speaker 1: jail and is married with children. But there was the 481 00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:51,440 Speaker 1: Amy Grossman case. She and her college sweetheart. She got 482 00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:55,560 Speaker 1: pregnant with her by her college sweetheart. She had every 483 00:31:55,600 --> 00:32:02,320 Speaker 1: advantage you can imagine, loving parents, middle to upper class 484 00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:08,040 Speaker 1: family in college, the world before her. Knowing her choices, 485 00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:14,240 Speaker 1: she and the boyfriend choose to kill the baby and 486 00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:17,120 Speaker 1: throw it in a dumpster. Take a listen to our 487 00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:20,320 Speaker 1: friends at Stories from the Grave podcast cut Sea, who 488 00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:25,160 Speaker 1: were perfect teens high school sweethearts. Then she got pregnant, 489 00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:29,280 Speaker 1: they got scared, and the baby ended up dead. The 490 00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:33,880 Speaker 1: New Jersey teens both eighteen, Who's shocking baby dead and 491 00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:37,720 Speaker 1: dumpster in Baby Slayer's story made headlines around the world. 492 00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:41,720 Speaker 1: That was in nineteen ninety six. Amy delivered her baby 493 00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:46,800 Speaker 1: boy in a comfort in motel in Newark, Delaware in November, 494 00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:51,840 Speaker 1: assisted only by her then boyfriend Brian Pearson, who later 495 00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:55,400 Speaker 1: threw the baby into a dumpster. In that case, the 496 00:32:55,600 --> 00:33:00,960 Speaker 1: baby suffered severe skull fracturing. That's how the baby was 497 00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:05,200 Speaker 1: killed by Brian Peterson, and they threw the baby in 498 00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:09,800 Speaker 1: a dumpster. Very often you don't hear the name of 499 00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:12,720 Speaker 1: the biodad. In that case, we know it was Brian Peterson. 500 00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:16,160 Speaker 1: In the Connecticut case, I just mentioned to you a 501 00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:19,720 Speaker 1: male abandoned the baby on the hood of a car. 502 00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:25,280 Speaker 1: I wonder why that is, Doctor Bethany Marshall that we 503 00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:28,800 Speaker 1: blame the mom, what the dad? The bio dad doesn't 504 00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:33,040 Speaker 1: notice the girlfriend fiance a wife is pregnant and then 505 00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:36,240 Speaker 1: doesn't question, Hey, where's the baby. I think that's a 506 00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:38,960 Speaker 1: very interesting question, and I was wondering that with this 507 00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:42,480 Speaker 1: case to where was the father. And in the two 508 00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:46,120 Speaker 1: cases you mentioned where the baby had the skull fracture, 509 00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:48,680 Speaker 1: the baby was left on the hood of the car. 510 00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:53,360 Speaker 1: You have two people conspiring together to commit a crime. 511 00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:58,200 Speaker 1: Just like any other crime where there's duos involved, whether 512 00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:02,120 Speaker 1: it's the DC snipers case or you know, serial killers 513 00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:06,040 Speaker 1: acting in concert, you have two people conspiring and making 514 00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:09,880 Speaker 1: a plan together. And I think you know, as a society, 515 00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:12,520 Speaker 1: we think that if a baby is born, it's primarily 516 00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:16,320 Speaker 1: the mother's responsibility. This is the mother and the father's 517 00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:21,880 Speaker 1: responsibility to nurture the child, raise the child. But to 518 00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:25,920 Speaker 1: get around the fact that the mother apparently is the 519 00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:29,400 Speaker 1: one that leaves the baby in the McDonald's. To Bianca Bono, 520 00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:32,760 Speaker 1: a reporter with twelve News and Phoenix, what are police 521 00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:37,360 Speaker 1: doing to find or other than I hope gathering surveillance video, Well, 522 00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:39,879 Speaker 1: you know, they're they've interviewed people who were there at 523 00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:42,319 Speaker 1: the McDonald and in the area, and they've actually put 524 00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:45,000 Speaker 1: a call out to the public saying that there were 525 00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:48,080 Speaker 1: more witnesses who were there at the scene when this happened, 526 00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:51,960 Speaker 1: but they left prior to police officers arriving. So they're 527 00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:54,279 Speaker 1: asking the public right now that if you were in 528 00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:57,040 Speaker 1: that McDonald or you saw anything and you left before 529 00:34:57,120 --> 00:34:59,920 Speaker 1: officers arrived, they're asking that you come forward and give 530 00:34:59,920 --> 00:35:03,040 Speaker 1: it statement. Well, it's very difficult for me to believe 531 00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:09,279 Speaker 1: again that with this surveillance, as finally taken as it is. 532 00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:12,480 Speaker 1: You see her walking in to the McDonald's, and you 533 00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:16,920 Speaker 1: know what's interesting, Bianca Bono, I don't see her carrying anything. 534 00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:20,279 Speaker 1: That's right. You don't see her carrying anything throughout the 535 00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:24,600 Speaker 1: entirety of the video. As I mentioned before, it's a 536 00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:27,759 Speaker 1: pretty long video. You see her walk into that bathroom. 537 00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:30,839 Speaker 1: She pulls at the door handle of first time and 538 00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:33,600 Speaker 1: sees that the doors locked, so she comes back right 539 00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:37,040 Speaker 1: past the camera, and an undetermined amount of time later 540 00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:39,759 Speaker 1: she goes back when the doors opened up, and she 541 00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:42,120 Speaker 1: goes inside, and then she comes back out. But at 542 00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:44,880 Speaker 1: no point is she carrying anything in her hand. She 543 00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:47,920 Speaker 1: would have to have had the baby concealed on her person. 544 00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:52,200 Speaker 1: Catherine Marsh absolutely, and from what I've seen of the video, 545 00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:55,000 Speaker 1: there's not a lot of places within her outfit to 546 00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:58,000 Speaker 1: have the baby concealed either. You know, I've looked at it. 547 00:35:58,080 --> 00:36:01,040 Speaker 1: The only way I see that it could have happened 548 00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:03,440 Speaker 1: as if she had it concealed in the front of 549 00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:07,279 Speaker 1: her shirt, because when she walks in, you see her 550 00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:10,600 Speaker 1: back and her hair, her just below shoulder length hair. 551 00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:14,120 Speaker 1: I'm looking at it right now. She's pulling on the door. 552 00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:18,360 Speaker 1: She turns around like now what looks at the man's bathroom, 553 00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:23,080 Speaker 1: and walks forward, and she is adjusting her shirt on 554 00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:26,200 Speaker 1: her right side. You see her pulling at her shirt 555 00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:28,920 Speaker 1: and then if she leaves holding the bottom of her 556 00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:32,480 Speaker 1: T shirt in the front. Now she's coming back in, 557 00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:35,760 Speaker 1: and I'm wondering if she did not have the baby 558 00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:39,759 Speaker 1: concealed in the front of her shirt somehow. What about that, 559 00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:44,040 Speaker 1: Katherine Marsh That is completely a possibility. It could also 560 00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:46,520 Speaker 1: be she was holding her baby because she was having 561 00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:50,680 Speaker 1: contractions for labor and she was holding her stomach as 562 00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:54,040 Speaker 1: she's going into the bathroom and then giving birth to 563 00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:57,840 Speaker 1: the child. Bianca Bono, it doesn't look like she's pregnant 564 00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:00,960 Speaker 1: when she walks in. Was I don't know if any 565 00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:04,040 Speaker 1: report that there was blood in the bathroom at the 566 00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:07,719 Speaker 1: umbilical cord had been cut. Well, she's not in the 567 00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:10,960 Speaker 1: bathroom very long at all, certainly not a time to 568 00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:13,800 Speaker 1: give birth and the video makes it a bit unclear 569 00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:15,920 Speaker 1: to have a sense of time because there are no 570 00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:19,680 Speaker 1: timestamps on the video, and they're very well could have 571 00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:23,200 Speaker 1: been more of a scene in that bathroom. Police just 572 00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:26,360 Speaker 1: have chosen not to make those details public at this time. 573 00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:31,520 Speaker 1: Straight back to doctor Bethany Marshall, Doctor Bethany, why Nancy 574 00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:36,239 Speaker 1: contempt towards the child, hatred towards to the child, Fear 575 00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:39,960 Speaker 1: that a child is going to interfere with an idealized life, 576 00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:43,480 Speaker 1: perhaps a new romantic partner where the mother thinks, boy, 577 00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:45,480 Speaker 1: if I have a baby, he's not going to love me. 578 00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:50,160 Speaker 1: Big dreams, big plans for one's own life. Lack of 579 00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:53,920 Speaker 1: a capacity to imagine into the life of the infant, 580 00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:57,279 Speaker 1: that that infant could go to school, could go to Harvard, 581 00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:02,840 Speaker 1: a big job, could provide grandchildren, no imaginative capacity that 582 00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:07,000 Speaker 1: this little being that is ruthlessly stuffed into a trash 583 00:38:07,040 --> 00:38:10,240 Speaker 1: can is a person who could be on roller scapes, 584 00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:13,840 Speaker 1: who could blow out birthday candles. The reason I'm painting 585 00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:17,959 Speaker 1: this picture for your listeners is that this picture does 586 00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:21,080 Speaker 1: not reside in the mind of the mother. Think about 587 00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:24,440 Speaker 1: when you were pregnant with the twins. Nancy didn't you 588 00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:28,560 Speaker 1: have hopes and dreams? Didn't you think about every stage 589 00:38:28,719 --> 00:38:32,080 Speaker 1: of their life? Don't you think I'm sure today you're 590 00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:34,640 Speaker 1: going to be thinking about what Lucy and John David 591 00:38:34,719 --> 00:38:37,359 Speaker 1: have coming, what they have for their summer plans, what 592 00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:41,920 Speaker 1: you did on spring break. They are in the mind 593 00:38:42,239 --> 00:38:45,680 Speaker 1: of their mother. And in my field, we think one 594 00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:49,000 Speaker 1: of the biggest catastrophes is when a person is born 595 00:38:49,520 --> 00:38:51,879 Speaker 1: and they do not reside in the mind of the mother. 596 00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:56,200 Speaker 1: Nobody thinks about them. And this is really the catastrophe 597 00:38:56,480 --> 00:38:59,759 Speaker 1: that we're talking about today. Is not just homicide, it's 598 00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:02,560 Speaker 1: not just murder. Those are terrible things. We talk about 599 00:39:02,560 --> 00:39:05,600 Speaker 1: crime all the time, but something many of your viewers 600 00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:07,960 Speaker 1: suffer from is that they may have been born into 601 00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:11,640 Speaker 1: the world with nobody thinking about them. And that is 602 00:39:11,719 --> 00:39:14,799 Speaker 1: so essential to being human and being alive, and that's 603 00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:18,840 Speaker 1: what's absent in a catastrophic way. Here. The search is 604 00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:24,360 Speaker 1: on for the woman that police believe killed a kneeborn baby, 605 00:39:25,719 --> 00:39:31,799 Speaker 1: leaving it it's dead body in a busy McDonald's. If 606 00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:36,800 Speaker 1: you have information for eight zero witness w I n 607 00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:42,320 Speaker 1: SS We wait as justice unfolds, and let me remind 608 00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:46,479 Speaker 1: everyone we don't know if this mother regrets the deed, 609 00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:52,360 Speaker 1: but the law is clear. One may immediately regret the deed, 610 00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:56,439 Speaker 1: but that does not negate and tip at the time 611 00:39:56,480 --> 00:40:03,080 Speaker 1: of the crime. Good by the