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Speaker 1: Let me tell you we have a new star.

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Speaker 2: A star is born Elon pumped up on Mars Utson Kennedy.

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Speaker 3: He is the Thomas Edison plus plus plus of our age.

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Speaker 1: Probably his whole life is from a position of insecurity.

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Speaker 1: I feel for the guy.

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Speaker 3: I would say ninety eight percent really appreciate what he does.

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Speaker 3: But those two percent that are nasty, they are out.

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Speaker 2: They in four.

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Speaker 4: Post We are meant for great things in the United

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Speaker 4: States of America, and Elon reminds us of that we

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Speaker 4: don't have a fourth branch of governments called Elon Musk.

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Speaker 5: Welcome to Elon, Inc.

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Speaker 2: Max Chafkin here joining you for a special emergency edition

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Speaker 2: of the podcast. It's about one o'clock on Thursday, as

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Speaker 2: June fifth, as we're recording this, and Donald Trump has

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Speaker 2: been making comments about Elon Musk in the Oval Office.

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Speaker 2: They were so explosive, so negative, that we wanted to

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Speaker 2: get here quickly and talk about them. If you've been

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Speaker 2: listening to the podcast, the question of how long will

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Speaker 2: this relationship last? How long can these two men who

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Speaker 2: have different egos, different ideological points of view, has been

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Speaker 2: kind of something we've talked about for basically a year

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Speaker 2: and we have been saying all along, at least I

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Speaker 2: have been saying that they need each other and that

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Speaker 2: for all of the kind of tension and some of

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Speaker 2: the signaling that we've seen on Twitter or whatever from Musk,

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Speaker 2: that it's basically no big deal. And I have to

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Speaker 2: say David Papadopolis, who has been taking the opposite position,

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Speaker 2: looking a little bit more like he was right on

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Speaker 2: this one, wanted to bring in Josh Green, Bloomberg BusinessWeek

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Speaker 2: political reporter, friend of the show, author of The Devil's

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Speaker 2: Bargain to talk about this.

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Speaker 5: Josh, how are you doing?

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Speaker 1: Doing great? Just sitting down here in DC amidst all

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Speaker 1: the drama.

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Speaker 4: As somebody on Twitter said, it's like we've reached the

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Speaker 4: mom and dad or screaming at each other in the car.

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Speaker 1: Phase of the divorce. So it's a really exciting moment

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Speaker 1: to be joining.

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Speaker 2: You, all right, So about that, So let's just first

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Speaker 2: of all, Trump is in the Oval with Friedrich Murrz,

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Speaker 2: the new Chancellor of Germany. He's getting asked all sorts

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Speaker 2: of questions about Vladimir Putin and so on, and then

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Speaker 2: someone asked him about Elon Musk, who has you know,

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Speaker 2: basically for three four days now, just been essentially tweeting

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Speaker 2: NonStop about how the big beautiful bill, as Trump calls it,

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Speaker 2: I guess that's the formal name, how terrible it is.

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Speaker 2: And let's listen to a little bit about what Trump

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Speaker 2: had to say about that.

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Speaker 3: He knew every aspect of this bill. He knew it

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Speaker 3: better than almost anybody, and he never had a problem

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Speaker 3: until right after he left. And if you saw these

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Speaker 3: statements he made about me, which I'm sure you can

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Speaker 3: get very easily, it's very fresh on tape. He said

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Speaker 3: the most beautiful things about me, and he hasn't said

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Speaker 3: bad about me personally, but I'm sure that'll be next.

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Speaker 3: But I'm very disappointed in Elon. I've helped Elan a lot.

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Speaker 2: It would have been possible, I guess, for Elon to

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Speaker 2: try to kind of patch things up here, but instead

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Speaker 2: he has been going off on Twitter. He actually responded

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Speaker 2: to this one, saying false, this bill was never shown

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Speaker 2: to me even once, and was passed in the dead

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Speaker 2: of night, so fast that almost no one in Congress

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Speaker 2: could even read it. A little bit later, he said

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Speaker 2: Trump would have lost the election, Dems would control the House,

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Speaker 2: and Republicans would be fifty one forty nine in the Senate.

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Speaker 2: You know, Trump has kept talking. Let's listen to one

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Speaker 2: more clip.

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Speaker 3: He's not the first people leave my administration, and they

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Speaker 3: love us, and then at some point they miss it

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Speaker 3: so badly, and some of them embrace it, and some

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Speaker 3: of them actually become hostile. I don't know what it is.

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Speaker 3: It's sort of Trump derangement syndrome. I guess they call it.

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Speaker 3: But we'd have it with others too. They leave, and

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Speaker 3: they wake up in the morning and the glamour's gun,

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Speaker 3: the whole world is different, and they become hostile. I

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Speaker 3: don't know what it is. Someday you'll write a book

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Speaker 3: about it, and you'll let us know.

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Speaker 2: Josh, you have written about this extensively, the extent to

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Speaker 2: which people in Trump's orbit can sometimes become quote hostile,

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Speaker 2: as President calls. It's what's kind of your reaction to this?

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Speaker 2: I mean, I feel like you all along have been

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Speaker 2: predicting this, and I think all along I've been saying

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Speaker 2: I I don't know, and here we are. I feel

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Speaker 2: like that your predictions have finally been born out.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: I mean like they certainly have, just by the evidence

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Speaker 4: of the last forty eight hours.

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Speaker 1: But I don't want to.

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Speaker 4: I don't want to spike the football because I thought

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Speaker 4: this would happen back in like January. Like I'm I'm

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Speaker 4: still amazed that the bromance lasted as long as it did,

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Speaker 4: because as we're now seeing play out in the ugliest

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Speaker 4: form in Twitter and in the Oval Office, both of

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Speaker 4: these guys have tremendous egos. They have to be the

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Speaker 4: main character. There isn't room for a co star. And

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Speaker 4: you know, Elon is hurt. I think that the Doge

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Speaker 4: effort was largely a failure. Now he's going back to

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Speaker 4: deal with his private companies, including Tesla, that are reeling.

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Speaker 1: He's obviously nursing wounds over.

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Speaker 4: Over some of the in the big beautiful Bill, and

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Speaker 4: it's just decided to have a big, ugly public tantrum.

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Speaker 1: About it, which is kind of what we come to

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Speaker 1: expect from him.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and Trump mentioned this, I mean, he said, Elon's

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Speaker 2: problem with the bill is these ev subsidies. These are

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Speaker 2: the tax credits that essentially made Tesla's cars and the

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Speaker 2: cars of other EV makers cheaper.

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Speaker 5: And Trump's right. He was on the.

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Speaker 2: Campaign trail saying this, like every single day, we're gonna

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Speaker 2: end the ev mandate. We're gonna end the ev mandate.

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Speaker 2: And somehow Elon Musk like looked past it or something.

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Speaker 2: It's it's a very it's a strange thing.

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Speaker 5: Trump also said that.

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Speaker 2: The reason he pulled Jared Jared Isaacman's nomination the nomination

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Speaker 2: for the head of NASA was because this is a

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Speaker 2: friend of Elon Musk and he thought it was inappropriate.

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Speaker 2: So so it's kind of like, both these guys are

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Speaker 2: now discovering things that I think we're sort of obvious

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Speaker 2: all along.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I think that's right.

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Speaker 4: I mean, the other the other factor about the v

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Speaker 4: Man eights is I believe at some point Elon was

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Speaker 4: asked about this and indicated he was fine with it,

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Speaker 4: you know, back back when the stuff was bouncing around

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Speaker 4: during the campaign. You know, I think he's sort of

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Speaker 4: grasping for any weapon in hand to try and criticize

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Speaker 4: Trump and express his deep unhappiness over I guess how

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Speaker 4: his tenure went in Washington, what his relationship with Trump

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Speaker 4: and the Trump.

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Speaker 1: White House is like.

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Speaker 4: And I think really what he wasn't able to accomplish. Remember,

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Speaker 4: he went in originally's going to cut a trillion dollars,

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Speaker 4: and he came out in Madison Square Garden and said no, no, no,

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Speaker 4: two trillion dollars. And you know, the first legislative manifestation

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Speaker 4: of those cuts is about to come before Congress and

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Speaker 4: it's a pitdlling nine billion dollars and it's not even

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Speaker 4: clear that that's going to pass. I mean, they're talking

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Speaker 4: about wiping out NPR and Big Bird in Sesame Street,

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Speaker 4: and even that might not get over the finish line.

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Speaker 4: So I think it kind of underscores the degree to

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Speaker 4: which Elon has failed in the goals that he set

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Speaker 4: out for himself. And again that public failure is just

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Speaker 4: sort of spilling out across Twitter.

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Speaker 5: I think he does care about these EV mandates.

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Speaker 2: And my take, and I should say, Elon, in this

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Speaker 2: barrage of tweets that he's been firing off over the

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Speaker 2: last hour, so did say, whatever, keep the EV in

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Speaker 2: solar incentive cuts in the bill, even though no oil.

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Speaker 5: Gas subsidies are touched.

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Speaker 2: Parentheses, very unfair, double exclamation point, but ditch the mountain

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Speaker 2: of disgusting pork all in all caps in the bill.

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Speaker 2: So he's saying, look, I'm willing to let the EV

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Speaker 2: subsidies slide. I do think, Josh, that there's been a change,

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Speaker 2: because back when Elon was sort of okay with this

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Speaker 2: tesla's finances looked way way better, and now you have

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Speaker 2: this like huge demand problem, the idea that he's facing

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Speaker 2: having to make his cars seventy five hundred dollars more expensive,

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Speaker 2: which is the potential upshot. I think I think the

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Speaker 2: state of play has changed maybe a little bit, and

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Speaker 2: that could be part of it.

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Speaker 5: But I also think you're right.

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Speaker 2: I mean, he just he you know, he set up

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Speaker 2: almost this impossible task for himself. You know, there were

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Speaker 2: lots of people at the time saying there's no way

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Speaker 2: he's ever going to be able to cut two trillion

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Speaker 2: or one trillion or even less than that. And now

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Speaker 2: like he sort of confronted with the essential failure of

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Speaker 2: this Doge project.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, he has.

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Speaker 4: And there's been a movement on the right in MAGA

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Speaker 4: circles among Elon's enemies for a few weeks now.

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Speaker 1: He was surely ramped up in the last forty eight hours.

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Speaker 4: Steve Bannon on his podcast yesterday was saying, Elon, you

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Speaker 4: promised us freight fraud, waste and interviews show us the receipts.

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Speaker 4: There's no fraud that meaningful fraud we can detect in

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Speaker 4: Medicare and Medicaid and Social Security, like show.

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Speaker 1: Us the goods.

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Speaker 4: And I think another reason the big Beautiful Bill is

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Speaker 4: so fat and ugly, as Elon put it was he

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Speaker 4: just wasn't able to come up with these compensating cuts.

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Speaker 4: And so you have the Congressional Budget Office coming out

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Speaker 4: yesterday and saying, yes, this bill is going to add

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Speaker 4: two point four trillion dollars to the deficit. So in

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Speaker 4: terms of an offset for all the spending that that

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Speaker 4: Trump and Republicans want, they were really counting on Elon

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Speaker 4: to deliver that and he failed.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, County, Like pretty unrealistic. But yes, I mean again,

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Speaker 2: like I know, he's sort of left holding the bag.

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Speaker 2: I mean in terms of in terms of blame. And

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Speaker 2: now you can see all of these people like Bannon,

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Speaker 2: like you know, trump allies in Congress kind of turning

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Speaker 2: on him and making him out to be the bad guy. Okay, Josh,

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Speaker 2: let's talk about where this goes. I mean, this is

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Speaker 2: going to continue to unfold. We'll talk about this at length,

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Speaker 2: I know, you know, on future podcasts, but they're so

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Speaker 2: sort of seemed like two possibilities to me. Like, one

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Speaker 2: is they could patch things up at some point, you know,

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Speaker 2: Trump and.

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Speaker 5: Even though they're even though they're you.

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Speaker 2: Know, at each other's you know, to see each other

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Speaker 2: on Twitter, Trump was kind of saying he hasn't been

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Speaker 2: attacking me. There seems to be just the faintest crack

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Speaker 2: for them to somehow reconcile, though it seems like it's

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Speaker 2: getting harder and harder by the minute. The other thing

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Speaker 2: is like, could eln embrace the Democrats or does he

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Speaker 2: just sort of ally with the kind of super hard

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Speaker 2: right deficit Hawk Thomas Massey ran a faction of the

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Speaker 2: Republican Party, like I assume, and he's he's sort of

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Speaker 2: said like he's gonna throw the bums out. Sounds like

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Speaker 2: he's still gearing up to spend money during the midterm,

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Speaker 2: but like where does that money go?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not exactly clear to me. I'm not sure

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Speaker 1: it's clear to him either.

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Speaker 4: I mean, he just started having an emotional crisis, like,

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Speaker 4: you know, loud and proud out across exit.

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Speaker 1: Twitter for all of us, all of us to see.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I personally have thought that like the devastating.

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Speaker 4: Move that some trollish, enterprising, high profile Democrat would make

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Speaker 4: is to get out there, like right now and start

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Speaker 4: publicly banging the drums and saying, these ev tax credits

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Speaker 4: are good, we need to get them back in the

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Speaker 4: bill and get rid of those oil and gas credits

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Speaker 4: and see if you could kind of tempt Elon into

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Speaker 4: jumping over to your side and maybe attacking Elon even more.

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Speaker 1: Maybe somebody like a.

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Speaker 4: Gavin Newsom or a Rama manual or somebody out there who's.

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Speaker 2: Good at rokana even who's kind of doing it just

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Speaker 2: the tiniest bit, although you know, I'm not sure that

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Speaker 2: he's on the level of the Yeah, I don't.

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Speaker 4: Think Roquoid has the fire in the belly and the

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Speaker 4: kind of like implicit trollish personality that would be required

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Speaker 4: to kind of carry this off at the highest level,

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Speaker 4: because you would also need to kind of anger Trump

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Speaker 4: and turn this into like a big fight, like a

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Speaker 4: big thing.

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Speaker 1: But it's it's it's certainly doable.

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Speaker 4: I mean, I've been getting texts like all day long

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Speaker 4: from Democrats being like, oh my god, I can't believe

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Speaker 4: this is happening.

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Speaker 1: They've finally broken up.

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Speaker 4: Mom and dad are fighting Washington is riveted, So ain't

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Speaker 4: could kind of happen from this point on?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I I don't think what you're suggesting is crazy.

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Speaker 2: He's fickle and and he you know, he will go where,

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Speaker 2: you know, where he sees advantage. And I think the

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Speaker 2: one issue, the one thing that's kind of stopping this

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Speaker 2: is that he's carving out an ideological position that is

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Speaker 2: pretty incompatible with like Gavin Newsom.

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Speaker 5: It's like, hey, we need to cot Medicaid more.

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Speaker 2: It's not so So that's the That's that's what makes

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Speaker 2: me wonder if maybe there is a chance of a reconciliation.

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Speaker 1: Well, look, I would.

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Speaker 4: Say on the on the policy front, I mean Elon,

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Speaker 4: like Trump, doesn't seem to be a man of like

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Speaker 4: fixed principles when it comes to like the full panoply

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Speaker 4: of like yet US public policy that cares. Certainly cares

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Speaker 4: about ev mandates. You know, that's that's important for his business.

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Speaker 4: But you know, whether he could be tempted to come

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Speaker 4: around and maybe forswear Medicaid cuts.

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Speaker 1: For something else, you know, who knows.

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Speaker 4: I think the bigger problem for Democrats is that if

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Speaker 4: you sidle up to Elon Musk, you can anger a

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Speaker 4: lot of the base because Musk is now I think

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Speaker 4: even more unpopular among Democratic voters, and Donald Trump himself is.

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Speaker 4: And we saw the fall out of that in Wisconsin

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Speaker 4: Supreme Court raised a couple of months ago.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and we and you know, it's possible that he's

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Speaker 2: just going to find himself in some kind of weird,

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Speaker 2: uncanny valley where no one likes him, where the Trump

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Speaker 2: voters are mad at him, the Democrats are mad at him.

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Speaker 1: That's where my money would Yeah.

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Speaker 2: He I just just one more piece of late breaking news.

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Speaker 2: He has stopped following Trump advisor Stephen Miller on X.

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Speaker 1: Oh my god.

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Speaker 4: Well that that's I mean, that was his greatest ally

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Speaker 4: and perhaps his last ally in the Truff administration. So

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Speaker 4: that is that is quite a blow, and that will

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Speaker 4: lead to all sorts of gossip in Washington about whether

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Speaker 4: it's just to fallout with Trump or whether there's some

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Speaker 4: other story behind the scenes. We're not privy too about

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Speaker 4: why Steven Miller would be so angry at elon Musk.

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Speaker 1: Now.

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Speaker 2: I'm sure we will talk about all that more on

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Speaker 2: a later episode.

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Speaker 5: Josh Green, thanks for joining us. I really appreciate it all.

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Speaker 1: It's pleasure.

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Speaker 2: This episode was created, produced, conceived, supervised by Magnus Hendrickson,

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Speaker 2: our supervising producer, edited by Anamazakis. Our executive producer is

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Speaker 2: Brendan Francis Newnham Stage Bauman Heads Bloomberg Podcast. If you

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Speaker 2: like this episode, please rate and review it. We will

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Speaker 2: really appreciate it and we will see you at our

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Speaker 2: regularly schedule time next week