WEBVTT - Rufus Wainwright 0:00:08.360 --> 0:00:13.360 Pushkin. Just a quick note here. You can listen to 0:00:13.400 --> 0:00:16.320 all of the music mentioned in this episode on our playlist, 0:00:16.360 --> 0:00:18.440 which you can find a link to in the show 0:00:18.480 --> 0:00:22.200 notes for licensing reasons, each time a song is referenced 0:00:22.200 --> 0:00:27.440 in this episode, you'll hear this sound effect. All right, 0:00:28.040 --> 0:00:32.120 enjoyed the episode. My name is Malcolm Gladwell. Welcome to 0:00:32.200 --> 0:00:35.680 Broken Record Today. On the show, he's called the greatest 0:00:35.720 --> 0:00:41.000 songwriter alive by Elton John no Less. Rufus Wainwright, the 0:00:41.040 --> 0:00:44.840 writer and performer, has transformed his love of pop, cabaret, 0:00:44.880 --> 0:00:48.319 and even opera into a series of extraordinary albums. They 0:00:48.320 --> 0:00:50.880 explore his own life and the world around him, from 0:00:50.880 --> 0:00:55.000 his sexuality to his famous musical family. Rufus sat down 0:00:55.040 --> 0:00:58.360 with Bruce Headlam at Sunset Sound in Hollywood, just four 0:00:58.440 --> 0:01:03.200 days after he premiered his late opera Hadrian in Toronto, 0:01:03.360 --> 0:01:05.720 and just as he was preparing for a new tour. 0:01:06.800 --> 0:01:09.280 He showed up at the studio with his guitar, I 0:01:09.319 --> 0:01:13.040 beat up Gibson Acoustic and a terrible cold. But Rufus 0:01:13.080 --> 0:01:15.400 with a cold is better than most of us healthy. 0:01:15.720 --> 0:01:18.520 Before we play his interview with Bruce, I just want 0:01:18.560 --> 0:01:21.360 you to hear Rufus playing one of his gorgeous songs 0:01:21.920 --> 0:01:27.080 at the studios piano. Well, I was wonderful, thank you. 0:01:27.920 --> 0:01:30.840 This first thing, I'll say, what did that song come 0:01:30.880 --> 0:01:33.919 out of? That song came out of I was living. 0:01:34.360 --> 0:01:35.800 I was at the time, I was living at the 0:01:35.840 --> 0:01:39.039 Chelsea Hotel, and I had had you know, it's funny 0:01:39.080 --> 0:01:43.600 because I went to New York earlier on before my 0:01:43.640 --> 0:01:46.960 first record. You know, my dad had always louder at 0:01:46.959 --> 0:01:48.720 the Third you know, he'd always lived in New York. 0:01:49.120 --> 0:01:53.080 And so I went down there and you know, slummed 0:01:53.080 --> 0:01:58.360 around and really had a terrible time. Nobody got me. 0:01:59.040 --> 0:02:02.480 It was at the time that Jeff Buckley was was 0:02:02.480 --> 0:02:04.520 was on the rise, and and and I'd go to 0:02:04.560 --> 0:02:07.320 this place, Shenaise in the Lower East Side, and I'd 0:02:07.320 --> 0:02:10.280 give I gave them my tape three times, they refused 0:02:10.280 --> 0:02:12.679 it three times, they gave it back to me three times, 0:02:12.840 --> 0:02:18.200 and uh, and just New York did not embrace me 0:02:18.320 --> 0:02:20.600 at all. And so I left. And then I ended 0:02:20.680 --> 0:02:23.200 up coming to Hollywood and and and doing it there 0:02:23.240 --> 0:02:25.919 and making my first record. Anyways, so then I came 0:02:26.000 --> 0:02:28.959 back to New York with with having made a record, 0:02:28.960 --> 0:02:31.800 and and and and being, you know, being well known 0:02:32.720 --> 0:02:34.400 and sort of the hot new guy on the block. 0:02:34.440 --> 0:02:37.560 And of course everybody loved me. Everybody wanted to have 0:02:37.639 --> 0:02:39.440 a piece of me. Everybody, you know. I was suddenly 0:02:39.520 --> 0:02:42.080 king of the city. And that's when I wrote poses. 0:02:42.720 --> 0:02:44.880 At that point I went into my New York because 0:02:44.919 --> 0:02:46.919 I was like, I'm going to have my New York experience. 0:02:46.960 --> 0:02:50.520 And so I moved into the Chelsea and proceeded to 0:02:50.800 --> 0:02:57.880 uh debaucherize my existence and and and that song and 0:02:57.919 --> 0:03:00.680 instagressed Chuck about those two of those two came of that. 0:03:02.000 --> 0:03:06.079 Are there traces of your I mean, and of course 0:03:06.080 --> 0:03:08.080 there's traces of your mother in what you do, but 0:03:08.280 --> 0:03:12.480 her her her musical influences and what you do. Yeah, 0:03:12.480 --> 0:03:16.720 I mean my mother, Kate would play piano all the time. 0:03:17.000 --> 0:03:20.040 She would listen to records a lot, and uh and 0:03:20.200 --> 0:03:26.280 had incredibly high taste for artists. I mean, she loved, 0:03:26.320 --> 0:03:30.520 of course, you know, all the great blues players like 0:03:30.720 --> 0:03:35.960 blind Willie Johnson, and she loved the Rolling Stones. She 0:03:36.080 --> 0:03:38.360 loved Sly of course that we're all obsessed with Debt Dylan. 0:03:38.440 --> 0:03:41.320 They loved all the Field recordings, you know, the Harry 0:03:41.320 --> 0:03:45.440 Smith recordings or they'd listened to, you know, Mahler's Fifth Symphony. 0:03:45.480 --> 0:03:47.920 I mean, they were it was it was a it 0:03:47.960 --> 0:03:52.560 was a high end music environment. So my mother would 0:03:52.600 --> 0:03:56.080 play the Goldberg Variations every morning, parts of them, not that, 0:03:56.200 --> 0:03:58.680 not the most complicated ones, but you know, so there's 0:03:58.680 --> 0:04:00.280 a lot of Glenn Gould and there was a lot 0:04:00.320 --> 0:04:05.040 of stuff like that. So so yeah, she was just 0:04:05.120 --> 0:04:10.200 a fountain of musical curiosity. Okay, did your father's songwriting 0:04:10.200 --> 0:04:13.040 influence you? Yeah, I mean we saw, you know, my dad. 0:04:13.320 --> 0:04:15.400 I didn't see a lot of my father growing up. 0:04:15.920 --> 0:04:18.440 He was touring a lot and didn't He and my 0:04:18.480 --> 0:04:20.800 mom didn't really get along, so I didn't see him 0:04:20.839 --> 0:04:23.640 so much, and most but mostly when I saw him, 0:04:23.640 --> 0:04:26.440 it was in the context of a concert or show, 0:04:26.520 --> 0:04:28.920 So I saw him on stage. I probably related to 0:04:29.000 --> 0:04:32.359 him more as a person while watching him perform than 0:04:32.440 --> 0:04:36.200 as I did as a person or as a father, 0:04:36.400 --> 0:04:39.120 you know, living And that was not hard to do 0:04:39.200 --> 0:04:42.120 because his work is so confessional and that's sort of 0:04:42.120 --> 0:04:45.280 really where he became who he really is, and he 0:04:45.760 --> 0:04:47.200 it was where I could get a lot of the 0:04:47.279 --> 0:04:51.680 answers to my questions concerning the family, concerning his his 0:04:51.800 --> 0:04:56.920 inner thoughts and desires and fears and and so going 0:04:56.920 --> 0:05:00.279 to see his shows was always a real education on 0:05:00.320 --> 0:05:03.240 so many levels, whether it was about songwriting or just 0:05:03.320 --> 0:05:06.960 you know, what was going on in my life. It's 0:05:07.000 --> 0:05:09.280 not only a musical family, but you're a family that 0:05:09.440 --> 0:05:11.839 tends to I don't know if you work out your issues, 0:05:11.839 --> 0:05:16.240 but you certainly address your issues. Yes in song. Yes, 0:05:17.360 --> 0:05:22.520 what's that? First of all, where does that impulse come from? Well, 0:05:24.520 --> 0:05:28.560 I mean, arguably it started with my grandfather on my 0:05:28.680 --> 0:05:32.360 father's side, with loudon when right the second he was 0:05:33.200 --> 0:05:37.120 a very well known writer for Life Magazine had a 0:05:37.160 --> 0:05:40.919 column for years called the View from Here, which was 0:05:40.960 --> 0:05:44.360 incredibly popular in the sixties, you know, and we're and 0:05:44.480 --> 0:05:47.520 Life Magazine was, you know, the the be all and 0:05:47.640 --> 0:05:51.279 end all of American culture. So so he and he 0:05:51.600 --> 0:05:54.080 would write about his kids, and write about his dog, 0:05:54.160 --> 0:05:57.479 and write about Kennedy, or write about you know, his 0:05:57.600 --> 0:06:01.600 relationship to you know, the Moonland or something. So so 0:06:01.720 --> 0:06:05.320 it was that that's that's how that thing was set up. 0:06:05.360 --> 0:06:07.839 So so on my father's side, with my mom, I 0:06:07.880 --> 0:06:12.919 think you know, she got into folk music she then 0:06:13.200 --> 0:06:16.560 and she was obviously quite talented, and she came from 0:06:17.240 --> 0:06:20.160 a generation of singers too that I'm finding out now 0:06:20.880 --> 0:06:23.840 though they were more kind of vaudevillian. But I think 0:06:23.880 --> 0:06:27.520 when she came to, you know, the Philadelphia Folk Festival 0:06:28.200 --> 0:06:31.359 in the sixties and stuff, you know, and Bob Dylan 0:06:31.480 --> 0:06:33.320 was around, and it was just it was the thing 0:06:33.400 --> 0:06:38.280 to do, you know, to really bury your soul and 0:06:38.279 --> 0:06:43.400 and be truthful and kind of live your life through music. 0:06:43.560 --> 0:06:47.080 So so all of that kind of collided. It's strange 0:06:47.120 --> 0:06:50.640 to revisit those songs now, my mother's songs or my 0:06:50.680 --> 0:06:53.200 father's no, but even your songs at dinner at eight 0:06:53.360 --> 0:06:55.800 or other songs you've written. You know, you wrote a 0:06:55.839 --> 0:06:59.400 song to your sister, like your mother being sick. Very personal. Yeah, 0:06:59.480 --> 0:07:04.480 I mean I've I you know, I singing my songs 0:07:04.600 --> 0:07:06.360 is kind of my day job. I mean, I go, 0:07:07.720 --> 0:07:11.480 I have to do shows every month, you know, three 0:07:11.600 --> 0:07:15.840 or four shows at least, just to maintain my existence. 0:07:16.680 --> 0:07:21.680 But financially, and I believe me, I do not have 0:07:21.760 --> 0:07:24.160 the luxury to kind of, you know, pick and choose 0:07:25.480 --> 0:07:29.680 what to present. I have to go with with what works. 0:07:29.720 --> 0:07:34.640 And thankfully, you know, over over my the the crest 0:07:34.680 --> 0:07:37.960 of my career, there have been many periods that I 0:07:38.000 --> 0:07:41.720 can borrow from, and so I'm constantly going in and 0:07:41.760 --> 0:07:45.800 out of those worlds. And and there's songs that I've seen. 0:07:45.960 --> 0:07:48.600 There are many songs I sing now for my first records, 0:07:48.640 --> 0:07:51.120 and yeah, so it's it's not weird to me. I'll 0:07:51.160 --> 0:07:54.080 look at good song is a good song, and I'll 0:07:54.160 --> 0:08:04.880 just you know, and an audience deserves that. Tell me 0:08:04.960 --> 0:08:09.040 where in my arms came from? Well, that came from 0:08:09.400 --> 0:08:13.640 I was living in Montreal, Quebec, and uh, you know, 0:08:13.720 --> 0:08:18.520 I had gone to McGill for two seconds. I was 0:08:18.560 --> 0:08:20.600 there for about a year and maybe maybe even a 0:08:20.680 --> 0:08:23.360 year and a half U and I and before that, 0:08:23.400 --> 0:08:26.560 i'd been in boarding school in upstate New York at 0:08:26.560 --> 0:08:29.920 Millbrook School, at the Millbrook School. And when I arrived 0:08:29.960 --> 0:08:32.520 back in Montreal, where I had grown up previously, I 0:08:32.559 --> 0:08:35.640 was I was really excited to sort of dive into 0:08:36.160 --> 0:08:41.280 the heady, head or hedonistic i should say, society that 0:08:41.280 --> 0:08:44.560 that city can offer. And ended up at McGill and 0:08:44.720 --> 0:08:48.240 was shocked by how boring it was and and you know, 0:08:48.360 --> 0:08:55.360 uptight and uh full of truly stayed characters. I hate 0:08:55.400 --> 0:08:58.000 to say it, it it really was. And I can say 0:08:58.000 --> 0:08:59.960 that now because I work in the classical music world 0:09:00.120 --> 0:09:03.320 now and with writing operas, so I have a deep 0:09:03.360 --> 0:09:06.920 appreciation for musicians of that ilk. But at that time 0:09:06.920 --> 0:09:09.240 in my life, it was just not what I was 0:09:09.240 --> 0:09:12.520 looking for. I wanted to party my brains out and 0:09:12.640 --> 0:09:16.559 hang out with you know, the Demi moans. So so 0:09:16.640 --> 0:09:20.280 I dropped out of McGill and ended up, you know, 0:09:20.320 --> 0:09:23.760 hanging out a lot on Saint Lawrence Street and going 0:09:23.840 --> 0:09:26.760 to there was a couple of bars there. One was 0:09:26.800 --> 0:09:29.680 called the bif Tech and one was called Miami, and 0:09:30.080 --> 0:09:32.199 I kind of gravitated towards those two. And that was 0:09:32.240 --> 0:09:35.960 where all the street urchins hung out. And one of 0:09:35.960 --> 0:09:39.680 them was this boy whose name I can't remember, who 0:09:40.160 --> 0:09:42.880 you know, I just had this brief, very brief affair 0:09:42.960 --> 0:09:47.280 with and he ended up sadly committing suicide. Uh and 0:09:47.280 --> 0:09:51.280 and that song was about him. So it was, yeah, 0:09:51.320 --> 0:09:58.280 how did it come about musically? Well, I mean, I 0:09:58.320 --> 0:10:00.480 you know, I grew up. At that point, I was 0:10:00.480 --> 0:10:04.520 living with my mom and you know, she Kate mcgaragal 0:10:04.760 --> 0:10:08.439 of the mcgarrigols sisters. In my opinion, aside from being 0:10:08.480 --> 0:10:11.040 my mom, I think was also one of the greatest 0:10:11.080 --> 0:10:16.199 talents of her or any other generation in terms of songwriting. 0:10:16.240 --> 0:10:18.640 I mean, both Kate and my aunt Anna wrote some 0:10:18.760 --> 0:10:23.480 of the most perfect music of the seventies and eighties 0:10:23.559 --> 0:10:28.840 and nineties, even and and Kate was very cognizant of 0:10:28.880 --> 0:10:32.800 my desire to follow in the family footsteps and do 0:10:32.960 --> 0:10:37.439 music and become a songwriter. So she really impressed upon 0:10:37.520 --> 0:10:40.840 me that I had to, you know, gather as many 0:10:40.920 --> 0:10:45.480 experiences as possible. She told me explicitly to never get 0:10:45.520 --> 0:10:47.679 a job. She said, don't ever get a job. And 0:10:47.720 --> 0:10:50.120 she ended up giving me an allowance, which was not 0:10:50.200 --> 0:10:52.040 a lot. It was like it was like ten dollars 0:10:52.040 --> 0:10:54.720 a week, which, believe it or not, in those days, 0:10:54.720 --> 0:10:56.520 you could actually, I mean if I was living, if 0:10:56.520 --> 0:10:58.240 you were living with your parents, you could actually do 0:10:58.320 --> 0:11:01.080 quite well on ten dollars a week. So I was 0:11:01.280 --> 0:11:03.960 in that I was allowed to be in that mode 0:11:04.200 --> 0:11:07.920 and at a very young age. And even though at 0:11:07.960 --> 0:11:10.320 times I'm sure my mother was horrified by by what 0:11:10.400 --> 0:11:13.080 I was going through and what I was coming into 0:11:13.080 --> 0:11:15.240 contact with, I think she always knew deep down that 0:11:15.280 --> 0:11:17.840 it was a sort of artistic pursuit and that it 0:11:17.880 --> 0:11:20.240 was as and that as a songwriter, it's kind of 0:11:20.240 --> 0:11:23.920 where I had to go. Do you write every day? 0:11:23.960 --> 0:11:26.840 Did you write every day? Then at that point in 0:11:26.880 --> 0:11:34.720 my life, I was completely ravenous with musical hunger and 0:11:34.720 --> 0:11:38.080 and would write every day and sometimes spend you know, 0:11:38.120 --> 0:11:41.360 five or six hours at the piano just just losing 0:11:41.720 --> 0:11:45.679 myself in it. And uh and that and that had 0:11:45.679 --> 0:11:49.120 started earlier in boarding school. Uh, where I would just 0:11:49.160 --> 0:11:50.960 there was a chapel in our school, and I would 0:11:50.960 --> 0:11:52.520 go there for for a long time. I spend a 0:11:52.559 --> 0:11:55.839 lot of time in church, not praying, but but we'll 0:11:55.880 --> 0:11:58.520 sort of praying in a way. So yeah, No, I 0:11:58.559 --> 0:12:02.760 worked a lot, and uh, yeah, what you have to do? 0:12:03.320 --> 0:12:05.760 Was it always at the piano in those days. Mostly 0:12:05.760 --> 0:12:08.959 at the piano, though, though I incorporated the guitar pretty 0:12:09.000 --> 0:12:11.760 early on, because one of the main things that I 0:12:11.840 --> 0:12:14.720 knew intrinsically was that I had to perform as much 0:12:14.760 --> 0:12:18.280 as possible in front of an audience, and not everybody 0:12:18.280 --> 0:12:21.520 had a piano, so so guitar was a much easier 0:12:21.600 --> 0:12:25.920 way to kind of move your product along. So I 0:12:27.000 --> 0:12:30.920 started writing songs on the guitar. Did the did the 0:12:30.960 --> 0:12:34.199 melody come with the lyric? In may cases, in most 0:12:34.280 --> 0:12:38.200 in the best cases, that it happened simultaneously. And then 0:12:38.240 --> 0:12:44.800 you know, the melody often really completes itself holistically without 0:12:44.840 --> 0:12:47.280 you know, much help, But and then you have to 0:12:47.400 --> 0:12:52.000 kind of grind away at the lyrics afterwards to kind 0:12:52.000 --> 0:12:56.160 of keep up. So, yeah, words are much harder than music. 0:12:56.720 --> 0:12:59.320 You say, the melody completes itself, but you are known 0:12:59.360 --> 0:13:02.040 for you much longer melody. Yeah, I have the most 0:13:02.040 --> 0:13:05.959 pop songs. Yeah yeah, Where does that come from? Where 0:13:05.960 --> 0:13:07.760 does the well, A lot of that comes from my 0:13:07.840 --> 0:13:13.400 love of opera. I, at the age of thirteen, was well, 0:13:13.440 --> 0:13:15.200 at the age of twelve, I was a normal kid, 0:13:15.360 --> 0:13:20.640 vaguely normal. But then at thirteen, I came into contact 0:13:20.640 --> 0:13:24.559 with this recording of Verdie's Requiem with Leontine Price and 0:13:24.600 --> 0:13:28.920 you see burling and and after a two hour stint 0:13:28.920 --> 0:13:30.920 of listening to that from top to bottom, I was 0:13:31.320 --> 0:13:36.319 utterly you know, changed, and and and and and turned 0:13:36.320 --> 0:13:40.080 into this seventy five year old opera in front of 0:13:40.080 --> 0:13:45.040 my horrified parents' faces. And uh and so I but 0:13:45.160 --> 0:13:47.679 I I and though I And it's interesting because you know, 0:13:47.760 --> 0:13:50.040 now my operas are produced and and you know, we 0:13:50.200 --> 0:13:53.560 just premiered Hadrian and with the coec in Toronto, and 0:13:53.920 --> 0:13:55.719 this was a big, great success, and I have and 0:13:55.960 --> 0:13:58.360 that's my second opera, so it's it's not a big 0:13:58.400 --> 0:14:00.079 part of my life. But I knew back then and 0:14:00.240 --> 0:14:03.240 even that that though you know, whether I wrote one 0:14:03.320 --> 0:14:05.280 or not, I kind of knew I'd never be an 0:14:05.280 --> 0:14:08.280 opera singer. But but whether I composed one or not, 0:14:08.400 --> 0:14:10.600 I definitely had the sense that there were so many 0:14:10.640 --> 0:14:16.720 interesting tricks and and and sensibilities and structures in areas 0:14:16.800 --> 0:14:20.240 that I could then incorporate into my own popular material, 0:14:20.800 --> 0:14:22.960 and that and that, and that I'd sort of discovered 0:14:22.960 --> 0:14:27.920 this this treasure trove or a Latin's cave that that 0:14:27.960 --> 0:14:31.840 nobody else knew about, and that I could then you know, translate, 0:14:32.280 --> 0:14:34.160 and and that was I was right in that case. 0:14:34.200 --> 0:14:38.320 I mean, you know, nobody once I hit really hit 0:14:38.360 --> 0:14:41.600 the scene officially, you know, in Los Angeles, uh, with 0:14:41.680 --> 0:14:46.120 my first album, people really had never heard anything quite 0:14:46.200 --> 0:14:50.440 like what I had created. I don't give opera the 0:14:50.480 --> 0:14:53.640 full credit necessarily, but opera was a big component of that. 0:14:53.880 --> 0:14:57.200 Were there times you were literally translating something you'd heard 0:14:57.200 --> 0:14:59.440 in an opera to a pop song or is it 0:14:59.520 --> 0:15:02.880 just more the that kind of things? A few times. 0:15:02.920 --> 0:15:06.000 But I think it was more just the structure of 0:15:06.200 --> 0:15:08.840 of of a song where where there should be a 0:15:08.920 --> 0:15:15.080 kind of climax that occurs. Uh, and then you know 0:15:15.280 --> 0:15:18.200 a denue maw after that. You know, there's a lot 0:15:18.200 --> 0:15:20.160 of a lot of my bridges kind of go into 0:15:20.160 --> 0:15:24.280 these very unusual places and and uh, yeah, it was 0:15:24.320 --> 0:15:28.080 more that sensibility of of of really the the the 0:15:27.920 --> 0:15:32.280 the aria, the or the song dominating the listener and 0:15:32.440 --> 0:15:37.040 making them follow them and not the other way around. 0:15:37.120 --> 0:15:39.080 You know. It was never a kind of background music. 0:15:39.480 --> 0:15:43.200 Do you separate writing melodies in your mind when you're 0:15:43.200 --> 0:15:45.520 writing opera. I don't want to go too far ahead, 0:15:46.240 --> 0:15:51.360 but there's certainly I'm thinking of maybe the first aria 0:15:51.400 --> 0:15:54.680 in your first opera in Madonna. Yeah, yeah, that could 0:15:54.800 --> 0:15:59.760 very much be a pop song that g road before 0:16:00.880 --> 0:16:04.800 you heard the Requiem. Was there a pop song that 0:16:04.800 --> 0:16:07.360 that kind of crystallized it for you? I was. I mean, 0:16:07.720 --> 0:16:12.720 what I also like to point out is that before opera, 0:16:13.960 --> 0:16:16.840 I was heavily into pop music, and it was a 0:16:16.880 --> 0:16:20.840 glorious period. You know, from about the age of seven 0:16:21.360 --> 0:16:26.160 until thirteen, it was you know, the arrhythmics. Cindi Lauper, 0:16:26.480 --> 0:16:32.240 Prince Tina Turner. I was really into the Thompson Twins, 0:16:33.000 --> 0:16:35.800 Blondie you know, and stuff. So you know, once in 0:16:35.840 --> 0:16:38.120 the mid eighties when it started to get a little 0:16:38.160 --> 0:16:41.200 more or the late eighties, you know, around around you know, 0:16:41.360 --> 0:16:42.680 I don't want to I don't I don't like to 0:16:42.720 --> 0:16:44.600 put down people, but you know, like Huey Lewis and 0:16:44.680 --> 0:16:46.480 the News, which you know, I think in retrospect you 0:16:46.560 --> 0:16:47.800 kind of look at their stuff and you're like, it 0:16:47.840 --> 0:16:50.760 was kind of amazing, but it was it got a 0:16:50.800 --> 0:16:54.760 little heterosecond. It just got a heteronormative at a certain 0:16:54.800 --> 0:16:57.760 point for me especially, and then and then the whole 0:16:57.760 --> 0:17:03.760 grunge thing happened, which was simultaneous to my opera phase. 0:17:04.480 --> 0:17:08.200 And I think, oddly enough, you know, the opera, my opera, 0:17:08.240 --> 0:17:11.640 my love for opera was a similar kind of desire 0:17:11.760 --> 0:17:14.480 that a lot of kids had when they got into 0:17:14.520 --> 0:17:16.800 Kirk Cobain and stuff. It was this desire for you know, 0:17:16.960 --> 0:17:20.800 a certain darkness that that the world needed at that point. 0:17:21.320 --> 0:17:25.520 And you said, personally, you were you were around fourteen 0:17:25.520 --> 0:17:28.360 at that point, Yeah, you'd come out. Well, I'd come 0:17:28.359 --> 0:17:30.800 out to myself. I mean I hadn't, I hadn't come 0:17:30.840 --> 0:17:33.320 out to anyone officially, but I knew I was I was. 0:17:33.359 --> 0:17:39.200 I was. I was engaged in you know, sexual things. 0:17:40.800 --> 0:17:44.720 I was all an aids. Was was decimating you know, 0:17:44.800 --> 0:17:48.320 the world around me. And I had to go to 0:17:48.359 --> 0:17:52.400 boarding school at that point. So what was the appeal 0:17:52.640 --> 0:17:56.639 of opera at that particular point. Yeah, beyond the music 0:17:56.680 --> 0:17:58.560 that you loved, that you talked about the well it was, 0:17:58.640 --> 0:18:03.480 I mean it was it really spoke to the darkness 0:18:03.560 --> 0:18:06.399 that that that was surrounding me. And uh, you know, 0:18:06.480 --> 0:18:11.000 I I had sex first when I was around thirteen, 0:18:12.000 --> 0:18:15.359 around that time, and that I that I started, you know, 0:18:15.480 --> 0:18:19.760 listening to opera, and I thought for a good ten 0:18:19.880 --> 0:18:22.680 years that I was going to die. And and honestly 0:18:22.720 --> 0:18:25.520 and in retrospect, there was a very good chance that 0:18:25.560 --> 0:18:29.280 could have happened. You know, you know, every pimple, every 0:18:29.440 --> 0:18:33.679 you know, scrape suddenly was corposed to sarcoma. You know. 0:18:33.760 --> 0:18:40.720 It was this you know, real trauma that opera thrives off, 0:18:41.119 --> 0:18:43.760 you know, And so I got a lot of solace 0:18:43.800 --> 0:18:47.679 from that and a lot of answers, you know, in 0:18:47.760 --> 0:18:50.040 terms of you know, the bigger questions and you know, 0:18:50.119 --> 0:18:52.240 and what really matters and you know, the power of 0:18:52.280 --> 0:18:55.440 love and the power of forgiveness and the power of transcendence, 0:18:55.840 --> 0:19:00.560 which opera always does. So so I do think also 0:19:00.720 --> 0:19:03.680 that there are these opera gods, and there's this kind 0:19:03.720 --> 0:19:09.040 of spiritual realm where opera resides, and that those ghosts 0:19:09.119 --> 0:19:11.479 kind of chose me as well, like there was that 0:19:11.520 --> 0:19:13.800 there was like the art form came to me and 0:19:13.960 --> 0:19:17.320 was like, we want you to uh do our bidding 0:19:18.160 --> 0:19:20.360 in a very spooky kind of way. Because I've I've 0:19:20.480 --> 0:19:23.600 I've had experiences like that with opera since then, where 0:19:23.680 --> 0:19:29.280 it's very very there's a supernatural quality to that music 0:19:29.320 --> 0:19:32.760 that that I wholly believe in, you know, like like 0:19:32.840 --> 0:19:36.080 people believe in Jesus Christ or you know, stuff like that, 0:19:36.119 --> 0:19:38.800 I believe in opera in that way. Do you believe 0:19:38.840 --> 0:19:41.560 that of other music? Have there been other kinds of 0:19:41.640 --> 0:19:45.000 music or songs that have changed the way maybe you've written? No, 0:19:45.080 --> 0:19:48.479 I mean I I I view all other music as 0:19:48.720 --> 0:19:53.399 as kind of as beautiful and fascinating and and and 0:19:53.400 --> 0:19:57.639 and and magical, but not not. Opera is like a 0:19:57.680 --> 0:20:01.560 religion for me that I think, you know, it helped 0:20:01.600 --> 0:20:05.520 me at that point. It also helped me greatly down 0:20:05.560 --> 0:20:07.800 the line when I was struggling with drugs and alcohol, 0:20:07.960 --> 0:20:10.840 and then it also helped me when my mother was dying, 0:20:10.960 --> 0:20:14.119 and and I'm sure it'll help me, you know, in 0:20:14.200 --> 0:20:18.680 future disasters. If there's any that will help you get 0:20:18.680 --> 0:20:21.399 through this interview, you feel free to put it on. 0:20:23.000 --> 0:20:25.919 That's a song sort of addressed to my daughter Viva, 0:20:27.000 --> 0:20:28.960 and it's I think it's going to make it on 0:20:29.000 --> 0:20:32.359 the new record. And she's how old now she's seven 0:20:32.400 --> 0:20:34.520 and a half. There's a new there's a there's a 0:20:34.560 --> 0:20:37.600 requirement in my family at this point, but with both 0:20:37.680 --> 0:20:41.960 Viva and your and my husband who who basically have 0:20:42.080 --> 0:20:44.640 stated that the rule is I have to have one 0:20:44.720 --> 0:20:49.520 song about them on each record. So it's it's it's 0:20:49.920 --> 0:20:53.919 it's my quota. Kind of do you do more than one? Well, 0:20:53.920 --> 0:20:56.600 I've etten about three three songs about Viva and three 0:20:56.640 --> 0:21:00.880 about him regardless, but it was Respectable Dive about him 0:21:01.119 --> 0:21:05.119 that that yes, Respectable Dive is about our relationship for sure. 0:21:05.680 --> 0:21:08.640 But yeah, but this this latest one is is very 0:21:08.640 --> 0:21:13.199 it's a short little ditty about about Viva. So our 0:21:13.280 --> 0:21:18.000 debt are directed towards Viva. Okay, beyond the contractual requirements 0:21:18.320 --> 0:21:22.040 in your family, Yes, to write about. Yeah, what what 0:21:22.160 --> 0:21:24.760 prompted the song? Well, you know, I just wanted to 0:21:24.760 --> 0:21:27.199 write a little something, you know. You know, Viva was 0:21:27.240 --> 0:21:32.000 born under very unusual circumstances, you know, which which at 0:21:32.000 --> 0:21:34.760 this point is not unusual. I mean, it's where we're 0:21:34.800 --> 0:21:40.720 living in this amorphous world. Obviously that's changing so quickly, 0:21:41.040 --> 0:21:45.120 and and and you know there's the common traditional family 0:21:45.840 --> 0:21:49.639 construct is shifting, and and Viva is really on the 0:21:49.640 --> 0:21:51.720 front lines of that, you know, because you know her 0:21:51.800 --> 0:21:54.640 mother and I aren't together as a couple, and and 0:21:54.800 --> 0:21:57.320 you know, I'm gay, and and and I have a husband, 0:21:57.400 --> 0:21:59.520 and she she loves him, and she loves me. So 0:21:59.600 --> 0:22:02.360 it's just sort of frame that a little bit for her, 0:22:02.800 --> 0:22:06.280 the explanation of that, and in a very whimsical way. 0:22:06.920 --> 0:22:09.520 And also because I think it's a it's a fascinating 0:22:10.760 --> 0:22:13.960 story in a lot of ways. How how how she 0:22:14.160 --> 0:22:18.199 was brought about. She definitely wanted to She definitely is 0:22:18.320 --> 0:22:23.680 meant to be here. I can tell you that emphatically, 0:22:25.200 --> 0:22:29.320 contracts were signed. Well, I mean, I think I think 0:22:29.359 --> 0:22:32.760 it's more, you know, you really what's fascinating with kids, 0:22:33.280 --> 0:22:36.600 And I don't think that when parents were in more 0:22:36.640 --> 0:22:40.800 traditional positions that that they could maybe grasp this as 0:22:40.840 --> 0:22:43.879 well as parents can now who are now you know, 0:22:43.960 --> 0:22:47.640 have all these choices, they realize how much it's really 0:22:47.680 --> 0:22:50.480 the kid that that has made the decision to arrive, 0:22:51.119 --> 0:22:53.359 you know, because once that person is in your life, 0:22:54.119 --> 0:22:57.679 it really fits into where you need to be and 0:22:57.720 --> 0:22:59.920 what you need to be doing, and and how you 0:23:00.200 --> 0:23:05.480 need to adjust your existence to cater to this new soul. 0:23:06.080 --> 0:23:08.399 And I think a lot of that was taken for 0:23:08.480 --> 0:23:12.040 granted when there weren't these other avenues available. And now 0:23:12.040 --> 0:23:14.200 that there's you know, all these different types of families 0:23:14.240 --> 0:23:17.159 and and and kids are you know, brought up by 0:23:17.160 --> 0:23:20.199 all different types of people. It's just the kids, know, 0:23:21.359 --> 0:23:23.879 you know, they made they made they made this that choice. 0:23:23.920 --> 0:23:26.359 It's that thing of the kids choosing the parents as 0:23:26.400 --> 0:23:28.480 opposed to the parents choosing the kid. I think that 0:23:28.560 --> 0:23:34.640 is very powerfully proven in this era. I have two 0:23:34.680 --> 0:23:37.280 young kids, and it is incredible how they basically drive 0:23:37.280 --> 0:23:41.080 the agenda. Yeah, no, they totally. I have amazing faith 0:23:41.200 --> 0:23:45.480 and young people and and and children of this in 0:23:45.520 --> 0:23:48.399 this time and and and really feel like in a 0:23:48.440 --> 0:23:51.640 lot of ways sadly that it's though, you know, though 0:23:51.640 --> 0:23:54.440 my parents' generation, my generation, I don't know what the 0:23:54.520 --> 0:23:57.040 hell we're doing. But but my parents' generation was so 0:23:58.000 --> 0:24:02.360 dominant and is now you know, with Trump obviously kind 0:24:02.359 --> 0:24:07.560 of hard to knock out. But but the younger generation, 0:24:08.080 --> 0:24:12.600