Speaker 1: Pushkin. Just a quick note here. You can listen to
Speaker 1: all of the music mentioned in this episode on our playlist,
Speaker 1: which you can find a link to in the show
Speaker 1: notes for licensing reasons, each time a song is referenced
Speaker 1: in this episode, you'll hear this sound effect. All right,
Speaker 1: enjoyed the episode. My name is Malcolm Gladwell. Welcome to
Speaker 1: Broken Record Today. On the show, he's called the greatest
Speaker 1: songwriter alive by Elton John no Less. Rufus Wainwright, the
Speaker 1: writer and performer, has transformed his love of pop, cabaret,
Speaker 1: and even opera into a series of extraordinary albums. They
Speaker 1: explore his own life and the world around him, from
Speaker 1: his sexuality to his famous musical family. Rufus sat down
Speaker 1: with Bruce Headlam at Sunset Sound in Hollywood, just four
Speaker 1: days after he premiered his late opera Hadrian in Toronto,
Speaker 1: and just as he was preparing for a new tour.
Speaker 1: He showed up at the studio with his guitar, I
Speaker 1: beat up Gibson Acoustic and a terrible cold. But Rufus
Speaker 1: with a cold is better than most of us healthy.
Speaker 1: Before we play his interview with Bruce, I just want
Speaker 1: you to hear Rufus playing one of his gorgeous songs
Speaker 1: at the studios piano. Well, I was wonderful, thank you.
Speaker 1: This first thing, I'll say, what did that song come
Speaker 1: out of? That song came out of I was living.
Speaker 1: I was at the time, I was living at the
Speaker 1: Chelsea Hotel, and I had had you know, it's funny
Speaker 1: because I went to New York earlier on before my
Speaker 1: first record. You know, my dad had always louder at
Speaker 1: the Third you know, he'd always lived in New York.
Speaker 1: And so I went down there and you know, slummed
Speaker 1: around and really had a terrible time. Nobody got me.
Speaker 1: It was at the time that Jeff Buckley was was
Speaker 1: was on the rise, and and and I'd go to
Speaker 1: this place, Shenaise in the Lower East Side, and I'd
Speaker 1: give I gave them my tape three times, they refused
Speaker 1: it three times, they gave it back to me three times,
Speaker 1: and uh, and just New York did not embrace me
Speaker 1: at all. And so I left. And then I ended
Speaker 1: up coming to Hollywood and and and doing it there
Speaker 1: and making my first record. Anyways, so then I came
Speaker 1: back to New York with with having made a record,
Speaker 1: and and and and being, you know, being well known
Speaker 1: and sort of the hot new guy on the block.
Speaker 1: And of course everybody loved me. Everybody wanted to have
Speaker 1: a piece of me. Everybody, you know. I was suddenly
Speaker 1: king of the city. And that's when I wrote poses.
Speaker 1: At that point I went into my New York because
Speaker 1: I was like, I'm going to have my New York experience.
Speaker 1: And so I moved into the Chelsea and proceeded to
Speaker 1: uh debaucherize my existence and and and that song and
Speaker 1: instagressed Chuck about those two of those two came of that.
Speaker 1: Are there traces of your I mean, and of course
Speaker 1: there's traces of your mother in what you do, but
Speaker 1: her her her musical influences and what you do. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean my mother, Kate would play piano all the time.
Speaker 1: She would listen to records a lot, and uh and
Speaker 1: had incredibly high taste for artists. I mean, she loved,
Speaker 1: of course, you know, all the great blues players like
Speaker 1: blind Willie Johnson, and she loved the Rolling Stones. She
Speaker 1: loved Sly of course that we're all obsessed with Debt Dylan.
Speaker 1: They loved all the Field recordings, you know, the Harry
Speaker 1: Smith recordings or they'd listened to, you know, Mahler's Fifth Symphony.
Speaker 1: I mean, they were it was it was a it
Speaker 1: was a high end music environment. So my mother would
Speaker 1: play the Goldberg Variations every morning, parts of them, not that,
Speaker 1: not the most complicated ones, but you know, so there's
Speaker 1: a lot of Glenn Gould and there was a lot
Speaker 1: of stuff like that. So so yeah, she was just
Speaker 1: a fountain of musical curiosity. Okay, did your father's songwriting
Speaker 1: influence you? Yeah, I mean we saw, you know, my dad.
Speaker 1: I didn't see a lot of my father growing up.
Speaker 1: He was touring a lot and didn't He and my
Speaker 1: mom didn't really get along, so I didn't see him
Speaker 1: so much, and most but mostly when I saw him,
Speaker 1: it was in the context of a concert or show,
Speaker 1: So I saw him on stage. I probably related to
Speaker 1: him more as a person while watching him perform than
Speaker 1: as I did as a person or as a father,
Speaker 1: you know, living And that was not hard to do
Speaker 1: because his work is so confessional and that's sort of
Speaker 1: really where he became who he really is, and he
Speaker 1: it was where I could get a lot of the
Speaker 1: answers to my questions concerning the family, concerning his his
Speaker 1: inner thoughts and desires and fears and and so going
Speaker 1: to see his shows was always a real education on
Speaker 1: so many levels, whether it was about songwriting or just
Speaker 1: you know, what was going on in my life. It's
Speaker 1: not only a musical family, but you're a family that
Speaker 1: tends to I don't know if you work out your issues,
Speaker 1: but you certainly address your issues. Yes in song. Yes,
Speaker 1: what's that? First of all, where does that impulse come from? Well,
Speaker 1: I mean, arguably it started with my grandfather on my
Speaker 1: father's side, with loudon when right the second he was
Speaker 1: a very well known writer for Life Magazine had a
Speaker 1: column for years called the View from Here, which was
Speaker 1: incredibly popular in the sixties, you know, and we're and
Speaker 1: Life Magazine was, you know, the the be all and
Speaker 1: end all of American culture. So so he and he
Speaker 1: would write about his kids, and write about his dog,
Speaker 1: and write about Kennedy, or write about you know, his
Speaker 1: relationship to you know, the Moonland or something. So so
Speaker 1: it was that that's that's how that thing was set up.
Speaker 1: So so on my father's side, with my mom, I
Speaker 1: think you know, she got into folk music she then
Speaker 1: and she was obviously quite talented, and she came from
Speaker 1: a generation of singers too that I'm finding out now
Speaker 1: though they were more kind of vaudevillian. But I think
Speaker 1: when she came to, you know, the Philadelphia Folk Festival
Speaker 1: in the sixties and stuff, you know, and Bob Dylan
Speaker 1: was around, and it was just it was the thing
Speaker 1: to do, you know, to really bury your soul and
Speaker 1: and be truthful and kind of live your life through music.
Speaker 1: So so all of that kind of collided. It's strange
Speaker 1: to revisit those songs now, my mother's songs or my
Speaker 1: father's no, but even your songs at dinner at eight
Speaker 1: or other songs you've written. You know, you wrote a
Speaker 1: song to your sister, like your mother being sick. Very personal. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean I've I you know, I singing my songs
Speaker 1: is kind of my day job. I mean, I go,
Speaker 1: I have to do shows every month, you know, three
Speaker 1: or four shows at least, just to maintain my existence.
Speaker 1: But financially, and I believe me, I do not have
Speaker 1: the luxury to kind of, you know, pick and choose
Speaker 1: what to present. I have to go with with what works.
Speaker 1: And thankfully, you know, over over my the the crest
Speaker 1: of my career, there have been many periods that I
Speaker 1: can borrow from, and so I'm constantly going in and
Speaker 1: out of those worlds. And and there's songs that I've seen.
Speaker 1: There are many songs I sing now for my first records,
Speaker 1: and yeah, so it's it's not weird to me. I'll
Speaker 1: look at good song is a good song, and I'll
Speaker 1: just you know, and an audience deserves that. Tell me
Speaker 1: where in my arms came from? Well, that came from
Speaker 1: I was living in Montreal, Quebec, and uh, you know,
Speaker 1: I had gone to McGill for two seconds. I was
Speaker 1: there for about a year and maybe maybe even a
Speaker 1: year and a half U and I and before that,
Speaker 1: i'd been in boarding school in upstate New York at
Speaker 1: Millbrook School, at the Millbrook School. And when I arrived
Speaker 1: back in Montreal, where I had grown up previously, I
Speaker 1: was I was really excited to sort of dive into
Speaker 1: the heady, head or hedonistic i should say, society that
Speaker 1: that city can offer. And ended up at McGill and
Speaker 1: was shocked by how boring it was and and you know,
Speaker 1: uptight and uh full of truly stayed characters. I hate
Speaker 1: to say it, it it really was. And I can say
Speaker 1: that now because I work in the classical music world
Speaker 1: now and with writing operas, so I have a deep
Speaker 1: appreciation for musicians of that ilk. But at that time
Speaker 1: in my life, it was just not what I was
Speaker 1: looking for. I wanted to party my brains out and
Speaker 1: hang out with you know, the Demi moans. So so
Speaker 1: I dropped out of McGill and ended up, you know,
Speaker 1: hanging out a lot on Saint Lawrence Street and going
Speaker 1: to there was a couple of bars there. One was
Speaker 1: called the bif Tech and one was called Miami, and
Speaker 1: I kind of gravitated towards those two. And that was
Speaker 1: where all the street urchins hung out. And one of
Speaker 1: them was this boy whose name I can't remember, who
Speaker 1: you know, I just had this brief, very brief affair
Speaker 1: with and he ended up sadly committing suicide. Uh and
Speaker 1: and that song was about him. So it was, yeah,
Speaker 1: how did it come about musically? Well, I mean, I
Speaker 1: you know, I grew up. At that point, I was
Speaker 1: living with my mom and you know, she Kate mcgaragal
Speaker 1: of the mcgarrigols sisters. In my opinion, aside from being
Speaker 1: my mom, I think was also one of the greatest
Speaker 1: talents of her or any other generation in terms of songwriting.
Speaker 1: I mean, both Kate and my aunt Anna wrote some
Speaker 1: of the most perfect music of the seventies and eighties
Speaker 1: and nineties, even and and Kate was very cognizant of
Speaker 1: my desire to follow in the family footsteps and do
Speaker 1: music and become a songwriter. So she really impressed upon
Speaker 1: me that I had to, you know, gather as many
Speaker 1: experiences as possible. She told me explicitly to never get
Speaker 1: a job. She said, don't ever get a job. And
Speaker 1: she ended up giving me an allowance, which was not
Speaker 1: a lot. It was like it was like ten dollars
Speaker 1: a week, which, believe it or not, in those days,
Speaker 1: you could actually, I mean if I was living, if
Speaker 1: you were living with your parents, you could actually do
Speaker 1: quite well on ten dollars a week. So I was
Speaker 1: in that I was allowed to be in that mode
Speaker 1: and at a very young age. And even though at
Speaker 1: times I'm sure my mother was horrified by by what
Speaker 1: I was going through and what I was coming into
Speaker 1: contact with, I think she always knew deep down that
Speaker 1: it was a sort of artistic pursuit and that it
Speaker 1: was as and that as a songwriter, it's kind of
Speaker 1: where I had to go. Do you write every day?
Speaker 1: Did you write every day? Then at that point in
Speaker 1: my life, I was completely ravenous with musical hunger and
Speaker 1: and would write every day and sometimes spend you know,
Speaker 1: five or six hours at the piano just just losing
Speaker 1: myself in it. And uh and that and that had
Speaker 1: started earlier in boarding school. Uh, where I would just
Speaker 1: there was a chapel in our school, and I would
Speaker 1: go there for for a long time. I spend a
Speaker 1: lot of time in church, not praying, but but we'll
Speaker 1: sort of praying in a way. So yeah, No, I
Speaker 1: worked a lot, and uh, yeah, what you have to do?
Speaker 1: Was it always at the piano in those days. Mostly
Speaker 1: at the piano, though, though I incorporated the guitar pretty
Speaker 1: early on, because one of the main things that I
Speaker 1: knew intrinsically was that I had to perform as much
Speaker 1: as possible in front of an audience, and not everybody
Speaker 1: had a piano, so so guitar was a much easier
Speaker 1: way to kind of move your product along. So I
Speaker 1: started writing songs on the guitar. Did the did the
Speaker 1: melody come with the lyric? In may cases, in most
Speaker 1: in the best cases, that it happened simultaneously. And then
Speaker 1: you know, the melody often really completes itself holistically without
Speaker 1: you know, much help, But and then you have to
Speaker 1: kind of grind away at the lyrics afterwards to kind
Speaker 1: of keep up. So, yeah, words are much harder than music.
Speaker 1: You say, the melody completes itself, but you are known
Speaker 1: for you much longer melody. Yeah, I have the most
Speaker 1: pop songs. Yeah yeah, Where does that come from? Where
Speaker 1: does the well, A lot of that comes from my
Speaker 1: love of opera. I, at the age of thirteen, was well,
Speaker 1: at the age of twelve, I was a normal kid,
Speaker 1: vaguely normal. But then at thirteen, I came into contact
Speaker 1: with this recording of Verdie's Requiem with Leontine Price and
Speaker 1: you see burling and and after a two hour stint
Speaker 1: of listening to that from top to bottom, I was
Speaker 1: utterly you know, changed, and and and and and turned
Speaker 1: into this seventy five year old opera in front of
Speaker 1: my horrified parents' faces. And uh and so I but
Speaker 1: I I and though I And it's interesting because you know,
Speaker 1: now my operas are produced and and you know, we
Speaker 1: just premiered Hadrian and with the coec in Toronto, and
Speaker 1: this was a big, great success, and I have and
Speaker 1: that's my second opera, so it's it's not a big
Speaker 1: part of my life. But I knew back then and
Speaker 1: even that that though you know, whether I wrote one
Speaker 1: or not, I kind of knew I'd never be an
Speaker 1: opera singer. But but whether I composed one or not,
Speaker 1: I definitely had the sense that there were so many
Speaker 1: interesting tricks and and and sensibilities and structures in areas
Speaker 1: that I could then incorporate into my own popular material,
Speaker 1: and that and that, and that I'd sort of discovered
Speaker 1: this this treasure trove or a Latin's cave that that
Speaker 1: nobody else knew about, and that I could then you know, translate,
Speaker 1: and and that was I was right in that case.
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, nobody once I hit really hit
Speaker 1: the scene officially, you know, in Los Angeles, uh, with
Speaker 1: my first album, people really had never heard anything quite
Speaker 1: like what I had created. I don't give opera the
Speaker 1: full credit necessarily, but opera was a big component of that.
Speaker 1: Were there times you were literally translating something you'd heard
Speaker 1: in an opera to a pop song or is it
Speaker 1: just more the that kind of things? A few times.
Speaker 1: But I think it was more just the structure of
Speaker 1: of of a song where where there should be a
Speaker 1: kind of climax that occurs. Uh, and then you know
Speaker 1: a denue maw after that. You know, there's a lot
Speaker 1: of a lot of my bridges kind of go into
Speaker 1: these very unusual places and and uh, yeah, it was
Speaker 1: more that sensibility of of of really the the the
Speaker 1: the aria, the or the song dominating the listener and
Speaker 1: making them follow them and not the other way around.
Speaker 1: You know. It was never a kind of background music.
Speaker 1: Do you separate writing melodies in your mind when you're
Speaker 1: writing opera. I don't want to go too far ahead,
Speaker 1: but there's certainly I'm thinking of maybe the first aria
Speaker 1: in your first opera in Madonna. Yeah, yeah, that could
Speaker 1: very much be a pop song that g road before
Speaker 1: you heard the Requiem. Was there a pop song that
Speaker 1: that kind of crystallized it for you? I was. I mean,
Speaker 1: what I also like to point out is that before opera,
Speaker 1: I was heavily into pop music, and it was a
Speaker 1: glorious period. You know, from about the age of seven
Speaker 1: until thirteen, it was you know, the arrhythmics. Cindi Lauper,
Speaker 1: Prince Tina Turner. I was really into the Thompson Twins,
Speaker 1: Blondie you know, and stuff. So you know, once in
Speaker 1: the mid eighties when it started to get a little
Speaker 1: more or the late eighties, you know, around around you know,
Speaker 1: I don't want to I don't I don't like to
Speaker 1: put down people, but you know, like Huey Lewis and
Speaker 1: the News, which you know, I think in retrospect you
Speaker 1: kind of look at their stuff and you're like, it
Speaker 1: was kind of amazing, but it was it got a
Speaker 1: little heterosecond. It just got a heteronormative at a certain
Speaker 1: point for me especially, and then and then the whole
Speaker 1: grunge thing happened, which was simultaneous to my opera phase.
Speaker 1: And I think, oddly enough, you know, the opera, my opera,
Speaker 1: my love for opera was a similar kind of desire
Speaker 1: that a lot of kids had when they got into
Speaker 1: Kirk Cobain and stuff. It was this desire for you know,
Speaker 1: a certain darkness that that the world needed at that point.
Speaker 1: And you said, personally, you were you were around fourteen
Speaker 1: at that point, Yeah, you'd come out. Well, I'd come
Speaker 1: out to myself. I mean I hadn't, I hadn't come
Speaker 1: out to anyone officially, but I knew I was I was.
Speaker 1: I was. I was engaged in you know, sexual things.
Speaker 1: I was all an aids. Was was decimating you know,
Speaker 1: the world around me. And I had to go to
Speaker 1: boarding school at that point. So what was the appeal
Speaker 1: of opera at that particular point. Yeah, beyond the music
Speaker 1: that you loved, that you talked about the well it was,
Speaker 1: I mean it was it really spoke to the darkness
Speaker 1: that that that was surrounding me. And uh, you know,
Speaker 1: I I had sex first when I was around thirteen,
Speaker 1: around that time, and that I that I started, you know,
Speaker 1: listening to opera, and I thought for a good ten
Speaker 1: years that I was going to die. And and honestly
Speaker 1: and in retrospect, there was a very good chance that
Speaker 1: could have happened. You know, you know, every pimple, every
Speaker 1: you know, scrape suddenly was corposed to sarcoma. You know.
Speaker 1: It was this you know, real trauma that opera thrives off,
Speaker 1: you know, And so I got a lot of solace
Speaker 1: from that and a lot of answers, you know, in
Speaker 1: terms of you know, the bigger questions and you know,
Speaker 1: and what really matters and you know, the power of
Speaker 1: love and the power of forgiveness and the power of transcendence,
Speaker 1: which opera always does. So so I do think also
Speaker 1: that there are these opera gods, and there's this kind
Speaker 1: of spiritual realm where opera resides, and that those ghosts
Speaker 1: kind of chose me as well, like there was that
Speaker 1: there was like the art form came to me and
Speaker 1: was like, we want you to uh do our bidding
Speaker 1: in a very spooky kind of way. Because I've I've
Speaker 1: I've had experiences like that with opera since then, where
Speaker 1: it's very very there's a supernatural quality to that music
Speaker 1: that that I wholly believe in, you know, like like
Speaker 1: people believe in Jesus Christ or you know, stuff like that,
Speaker 1: I believe in opera in that way. Do you believe
Speaker 1: that of other music? Have there been other kinds of
Speaker 1: music or songs that have changed the way maybe you've written? No,
Speaker 1: I mean I I I view all other music as
Speaker 1: as kind of as beautiful and fascinating and and and
Speaker 1: and and magical, but not not. Opera is like a
Speaker 1: religion for me that I think, you know, it helped
Speaker 1: me at that point. It also helped me greatly down
Speaker 1: the line when I was struggling with drugs and alcohol,
Speaker 1: and then it also helped me when my mother was dying,
Speaker 1: and and I'm sure it'll help me, you know, in
Speaker 1: future disasters. If there's any that will help you get
Speaker 1: through this interview, you feel free to put it on.
Speaker 1: That's a song sort of addressed to my daughter Viva,
Speaker 1: and it's I think it's going to make it on
Speaker 1: the new record. And she's how old now she's seven
Speaker 1: and a half. There's a new there's a there's a
Speaker 1: requirement in my family at this point, but with both
Speaker 1: Viva and your and my husband who who basically have
Speaker 1: stated that the rule is I have to have one
Speaker 1: song about them on each record. So it's it's it's
Speaker 1: it's my quota. Kind of do you do more than one? Well,
Speaker 1: I've etten about three three songs about Viva and three
Speaker 1: about him regardless, but it was Respectable Dive about him
Speaker 1: that that yes, Respectable Dive is about our relationship for sure.
Speaker 1: But yeah, but this this latest one is is very
Speaker 1: it's a short little ditty about about Viva. So our
Speaker 1: debt are directed towards Viva. Okay, beyond the contractual requirements
Speaker 1: in your family, Yes, to write about. Yeah, what what
Speaker 1: prompted the song? Well, you know, I just wanted to
Speaker 1: write a little something, you know. You know, Viva was
Speaker 1: born under very unusual circumstances, you know, which which at
Speaker 1: this point is not unusual. I mean, it's where we're
Speaker 1: living in this amorphous world. Obviously that's changing so quickly,
Speaker 1: and and and you know there's the common traditional family
Speaker 1: construct is shifting, and and Viva is really on the
Speaker 1: front lines of that, you know, because you know her
Speaker 1: mother and I aren't together as a couple, and and
Speaker 1: you know, I'm gay, and and and I have a husband,
Speaker 1: and she she loves him, and she loves me. So
Speaker 1: it's just sort of frame that a little bit for her,
Speaker 1: the explanation of that, and in a very whimsical way.
Speaker 1: And also because I think it's a it's a fascinating
Speaker 1: story in a lot of ways. How how how she
Speaker 1: was brought about. She definitely wanted to She definitely is
Speaker 1: meant to be here. I can tell you that emphatically,
Speaker 1: contracts were signed. Well, I mean, I think I think
Speaker 1: it's more, you know, you really what's fascinating with kids,
Speaker 1: And I don't think that when parents were in more
Speaker 1: traditional positions that that they could maybe grasp this as
Speaker 1: well as parents can now who are now you know,
Speaker 1: have all these choices, they realize how much it's really
Speaker 1: the kid that that has made the decision to arrive,
Speaker 1: you know, because once that person is in your life,
Speaker 1: it really fits into where you need to be and
Speaker 1: what you need to be doing, and and how you
Speaker 1: need to adjust your existence to cater to this new soul.
Speaker 1: And I think a lot of that was taken for
Speaker 1: granted when there weren't these other avenues available. And now
Speaker 1: that there's you know, all these different types of families
Speaker 1: and and and kids are you know, brought up by
Speaker 1: all different types of people. It's just the kids, know,
Speaker 1: you know, they made they made they made this that choice.
Speaker 1: It's that thing of the kids choosing the parents as
Speaker 1: opposed to the parents choosing the kid. I think that
Speaker 1: is very powerfully proven in this era. I have two
Speaker 1: young kids, and it is incredible how they basically drive
Speaker 1: the agenda. Yeah, no, they totally. I have amazing faith
Speaker 1: and young people and and and children of this in
Speaker 1: this time and and and really feel like in a
Speaker 1: lot of ways sadly that it's though, you know, though
Speaker 1: my parents' generation, my generation, I don't know what the
Speaker 1: hell we're doing. But but my parents' generation was so
Speaker 1: dominant and is now you know, with Trump obviously kind
Speaker 1: of hard to knock out. But but the younger generation,
Speaker 1: the kids, my daughter and and and so forth, they
Speaker 1: they're going to figure this out. I think I've heard
Speaker 1: you do a lot of Leonard Cohen songs, and there's
Speaker 1: a connection to your daughter there. Yes, yes, and he
Speaker 1: is the grandfather of my daughter. Did you know him
Speaker 1: in Montreal or I didn't know him in Montreal at all?
Speaker 1: I mean I knew him in La I didn't know
Speaker 1: I mean I met Laura once, that the daughter his daughter,
Speaker 1: when when I was in Montreal, very briefly. But then
Speaker 1: it was really when I came to California that that
Speaker 1: was your relationship with him? We know, we had a
Speaker 1: really interesting relationship. I mean I would in no way
Speaker 1: pretend to be a good friend of his. We were
Speaker 1: we were definitely bound by something. I mean, there was
Speaker 1: there was a kind of acceptance. He had an acceptance
Speaker 1: of me that I think was very rare, but not
Speaker 1: at all open either, you know, it wasn't he kind
Speaker 1: of I don't think he tolerated me necessarily, but but
Speaker 1: he he knew I was going to stick around, and
Speaker 1: he he made some room for me, you know, in
Speaker 1: his world. And then when things you know, picked up,
Speaker 1: and later on and we you know, Laura and I
Speaker 1: decided to have a child, he was I think he
Speaker 1: was very happy about that, and uh sadly, you know,
Speaker 1: his health declined soon after Viva was born, but they
Speaker 1: got to spend a lot of time together. You know,
Speaker 1: they actually kind of all lived together. So, I mean,
Speaker 1: my my favorite Leonard thing that that impressed me and
Speaker 1: that I'll always remember him for is that, you know,
Speaker 1: when my first opera was was was produced, there was
Speaker 1: a New Yorker that came out New Yorker magazine and
Speaker 1: there was a big advertisement for it, for the New
Speaker 1: York City Opera and on one page was Prima Donna
Speaker 1: and on the other page was a lat of traviata. Now,
Speaker 1: Leonard had always been you know, I think he liked
Speaker 1: liked my music, I think, and he appreciated my talent.
Speaker 1: I think he respected me greatly, but he wasn't at
Speaker 1: all effusive or you know, he didn't come to my
Speaker 1: shows or anything like anything like that. But when that
Speaker 1: New Yorker came out and he saw the two you know,
Speaker 1: operas one next to each other. He came down and
Speaker 1: he kind of grabbed me and he says, you know, Rufless,
Speaker 1: this is really amazing. This is I am so impressed
Speaker 1: by that. And I could tell deep down that he
Speaker 1: was that he was, that he was really he was
Speaker 1: impressed and proud of me, you know, for doing that,
Speaker 1: because I think it was something that he could have
Speaker 1: never done, you know, and it was something that he was.
Speaker 1: It was like a whole other universe that he certainly
Speaker 1: had a lot of respect for. But that but but
Speaker 1: that also didn't necessarily, you know, encroach on history. So
Speaker 1: but he was he was, and that was That was
Speaker 1: a great comfort to me and a great sort of
Speaker 1: impetus to continue. Yeah, did he did his songwriting influence
Speaker 1: yours at all? I mean, I think his I don't
Speaker 1: know if his style musical style necessarily influenced me too much.
Speaker 1: I would say, you know, his lyrics are second to none, obviously,
Speaker 1: and I've often hoped that there might be you know,
Speaker 1: a glimmer of similarity here and there in some of
Speaker 1: my lines. I you know that that that that I
Speaker 1: do think the way I write is completely different. I
Speaker 1: think he's far superior, uh in that department. But uh,
Speaker 1: but I but I've always kept him as a as
Speaker 1: a as a beacon, you know, uh for for in
Speaker 1: terms of words, uh, someone to you know, put keep
Speaker 1: in the back of your mind. I do want to
Speaker 1: talk about one more song, and this is called the
Speaker 1: sort of Damicles. Yes, yes, tell me about that song. Yeah. Well,
Speaker 1: I've been hanging out quite a bit with Carrie Fisher
Speaker 1: before she died and before she went to London. I
Speaker 1: was at her house and you know, it was it
Speaker 1: was a nutty period and and she was on her
Speaker 1: on the phone with her attorney, screaming at him talking
Speaker 1: about how she felt like the sword of Damocles was
Speaker 1: over her head. And it kind of I just just
Speaker 1: resonated that that saying, and that just sort of started
Speaker 1: rolling around in my in my subconscious and uh and
Speaker 1: I just started writing this song about about Damocles. And
Speaker 1: then during the writing of it, I realized that, you
Speaker 1: know that that's when you know Trump won the election.
Speaker 1: I hadn't finished it yet, so it was it was
Speaker 1: one of these kind of there was an ominous quality,
Speaker 1: you know, to this song. And also, you know, Carrie
Speaker 1: sadly passed away right before the election or maybe yeah,
Speaker 1: it was right or maybe it was right after, but
Speaker 1: it was it was around that period. And so there
Speaker 1: was this there was just this dark spirit roaming uh
Speaker 1: that I that my you know, songwriting instincts were picking
Speaker 1: up on. And it had to do with Dancles. And
Speaker 1: then I didn't actually know the story. So then I thought,
Speaker 1: you know, it might be good to actually know what
Speaker 1: I'm writing about, So I googled Damocles and uh and
Speaker 1: and learned the story by Cicero, which is actually about
Speaker 1: you know, a king who is being courted by by
Speaker 1: one of his subjects, uh, Damcles and and the Damles
Speaker 1: thing is almost be wonderful to be king. And then
Speaker 1: you know they switched places mystically and and and Dan
Speaker 1: mccles is then the king and but he noticed the
Speaker 1: sword over his head and and and the ideas that
Speaker 1: with you know, great power comes great responsibility and also
Speaker 1: great danger. So I so then I finished the song
Speaker 1: with with having known the actual myth. And and also
Speaker 1: after you know, Trump had been elect to president, and
Speaker 1: it's just sort of all fit sadly very well, and
Speaker 1: what I'll say about Dan mccles though about this song
Speaker 1: is that it's not only and I think this is
Speaker 1: important to point out, is that in the song, for instance,
Speaker 1: at the end of it, I say, you know, I
Speaker 1: am a tyrant, meaning that you know, when the sword
Speaker 1: of Dan mcle's falls, it's on all of us, you know,
Speaker 1: And it's not really and it should fall, it needs
Speaker 1: to happen, but it's going to really devastate everyone. And I,
Speaker 1: you know, I think we're just preparing for it right now,
Speaker 1: but we will hopefully prevail. And that's when I go
Speaker 1: to the younger generation and I realize that they do
Speaker 1: seem ready to fight. That was rufus Wayne Wright in
Speaker 1: conversation with Bruce Headler. Broken Records produced by Meil Label
Speaker 1: and Jason Gambrell, with help from Bruce Hedler, Pascal, Jacob Smith,
Speaker 1: Julia Barton, Justin Richmond, Jacob Weisberg, and of course LFA recruit.
Speaker 1: To hear all of the songs featured in today's episode,
Speaker 1: check out Broken Record podcast dot com. This show is
Speaker 1: brought to you by Pushkin Industries. I'm Malcolm Glampa. When
Speaker 1: I was growing up, my father dubbed our garden cart Rufus.
Speaker 1: So every time I see Rufus Reynard, I think of
Speaker 1: the garden cart by the way. Pushkin was the name
Speaker 1: of our first dog. That's where that comes from.