1 00:00:08,360 --> 00:00:13,360 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Just a quick note here. You can listen to 2 00:00:13,400 --> 00:00:16,320 Speaker 1: all of the music mentioned in this episode on our playlist, 3 00:00:16,360 --> 00:00:18,440 Speaker 1: which you can find a link to in the show 4 00:00:18,480 --> 00:00:22,200 Speaker 1: notes for licensing reasons, each time a song is referenced 5 00:00:22,200 --> 00:00:27,440 Speaker 1: in this episode, you'll hear this sound effect. All right, 6 00:00:28,040 --> 00:00:32,120 Speaker 1: enjoyed the episode. My name is Malcolm Gladwell. Welcome to 7 00:00:32,200 --> 00:00:35,680 Speaker 1: Broken Record Today. On the show, he's called the greatest 8 00:00:35,720 --> 00:00:41,000 Speaker 1: songwriter alive by Elton John no Less. Rufus Wainwright, the 9 00:00:41,040 --> 00:00:44,840 Speaker 1: writer and performer, has transformed his love of pop, cabaret, 10 00:00:44,880 --> 00:00:48,319 Speaker 1: and even opera into a series of extraordinary albums. They 11 00:00:48,320 --> 00:00:50,880 Speaker 1: explore his own life and the world around him, from 12 00:00:50,880 --> 00:00:55,000 Speaker 1: his sexuality to his famous musical family. Rufus sat down 13 00:00:55,040 --> 00:00:58,360 Speaker 1: with Bruce Headlam at Sunset Sound in Hollywood, just four 14 00:00:58,440 --> 00:01:03,200 Speaker 1: days after he premiered his late opera Hadrian in Toronto, 15 00:01:03,360 --> 00:01:05,720 Speaker 1: and just as he was preparing for a new tour. 16 00:01:06,800 --> 00:01:09,280 Speaker 1: He showed up at the studio with his guitar, I 17 00:01:09,319 --> 00:01:13,040 Speaker 1: beat up Gibson Acoustic and a terrible cold. But Rufus 18 00:01:13,080 --> 00:01:15,400 Speaker 1: with a cold is better than most of us healthy. 19 00:01:15,720 --> 00:01:18,520 Speaker 1: Before we play his interview with Bruce, I just want 20 00:01:18,560 --> 00:01:21,360 Speaker 1: you to hear Rufus playing one of his gorgeous songs 21 00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:27,080 Speaker 1: at the studios piano. Well, I was wonderful, thank you. 22 00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:30,840 Speaker 1: This first thing, I'll say, what did that song come 23 00:01:30,880 --> 00:01:33,919 Speaker 1: out of? That song came out of I was living. 24 00:01:34,360 --> 00:01:35,800 Speaker 1: I was at the time, I was living at the 25 00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:39,039 Speaker 1: Chelsea Hotel, and I had had you know, it's funny 26 00:01:39,080 --> 00:01:43,600 Speaker 1: because I went to New York earlier on before my 27 00:01:43,640 --> 00:01:46,960 Speaker 1: first record. You know, my dad had always louder at 28 00:01:46,959 --> 00:01:48,720 Speaker 1: the Third you know, he'd always lived in New York. 29 00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:53,080 Speaker 1: And so I went down there and you know, slummed 30 00:01:53,080 --> 00:01:58,360 Speaker 1: around and really had a terrible time. Nobody got me. 31 00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:02,480 Speaker 1: It was at the time that Jeff Buckley was was 32 00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:04,520 Speaker 1: was on the rise, and and and I'd go to 33 00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:07,320 Speaker 1: this place, Shenaise in the Lower East Side, and I'd 34 00:02:07,320 --> 00:02:10,280 Speaker 1: give I gave them my tape three times, they refused 35 00:02:10,280 --> 00:02:12,679 Speaker 1: it three times, they gave it back to me three times, 36 00:02:12,840 --> 00:02:18,200 Speaker 1: and uh, and just New York did not embrace me 37 00:02:18,320 --> 00:02:20,600 Speaker 1: at all. And so I left. And then I ended 38 00:02:20,680 --> 00:02:23,200 Speaker 1: up coming to Hollywood and and and doing it there 39 00:02:23,240 --> 00:02:25,919 Speaker 1: and making my first record. Anyways, so then I came 40 00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:28,959 Speaker 1: back to New York with with having made a record, 41 00:02:28,960 --> 00:02:31,800 Speaker 1: and and and and being, you know, being well known 42 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:34,400 Speaker 1: and sort of the hot new guy on the block. 43 00:02:34,440 --> 00:02:37,560 Speaker 1: And of course everybody loved me. Everybody wanted to have 44 00:02:37,639 --> 00:02:39,440 Speaker 1: a piece of me. Everybody, you know. I was suddenly 45 00:02:39,520 --> 00:02:42,080 Speaker 1: king of the city. And that's when I wrote poses. 46 00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:44,880 Speaker 1: At that point I went into my New York because 47 00:02:44,919 --> 00:02:46,919 Speaker 1: I was like, I'm going to have my New York experience. 48 00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:50,520 Speaker 1: And so I moved into the Chelsea and proceeded to 49 00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:57,880 Speaker 1: uh debaucherize my existence and and and that song and 50 00:02:57,919 --> 00:03:00,680 Speaker 1: instagressed Chuck about those two of those two came of that. 51 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:06,079 Speaker 1: Are there traces of your I mean, and of course 52 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:08,080 Speaker 1: there's traces of your mother in what you do, but 53 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:12,480 Speaker 1: her her her musical influences and what you do. Yeah, 54 00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:16,720 Speaker 1: I mean my mother, Kate would play piano all the time. 55 00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:20,040 Speaker 1: She would listen to records a lot, and uh and 56 00:03:20,200 --> 00:03:26,280 Speaker 1: had incredibly high taste for artists. I mean, she loved, 57 00:03:26,320 --> 00:03:30,520 Speaker 1: of course, you know, all the great blues players like 58 00:03:30,720 --> 00:03:35,960 Speaker 1: blind Willie Johnson, and she loved the Rolling Stones. She 59 00:03:36,080 --> 00:03:38,360 Speaker 1: loved Sly of course that we're all obsessed with Debt Dylan. 60 00:03:38,440 --> 00:03:41,320 Speaker 1: They loved all the Field recordings, you know, the Harry 61 00:03:41,320 --> 00:03:45,440 Speaker 1: Smith recordings or they'd listened to, you know, Mahler's Fifth Symphony. 62 00:03:45,480 --> 00:03:47,920 Speaker 1: I mean, they were it was it was a it 63 00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:52,560 Speaker 1: was a high end music environment. So my mother would 64 00:03:52,600 --> 00:03:56,080 Speaker 1: play the Goldberg Variations every morning, parts of them, not that, 65 00:03:56,200 --> 00:03:58,680 Speaker 1: not the most complicated ones, but you know, so there's 66 00:03:58,680 --> 00:04:00,280 Speaker 1: a lot of Glenn Gould and there was a lot 67 00:04:00,320 --> 00:04:05,040 Speaker 1: of stuff like that. So so yeah, she was just 68 00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:10,200 Speaker 1: a fountain of musical curiosity. Okay, did your father's songwriting 69 00:04:10,200 --> 00:04:13,040 Speaker 1: influence you? Yeah, I mean we saw, you know, my dad. 70 00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:15,400 Speaker 1: I didn't see a lot of my father growing up. 71 00:04:15,920 --> 00:04:18,440 Speaker 1: He was touring a lot and didn't He and my 72 00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:20,800 Speaker 1: mom didn't really get along, so I didn't see him 73 00:04:20,839 --> 00:04:23,640 Speaker 1: so much, and most but mostly when I saw him, 74 00:04:23,640 --> 00:04:26,440 Speaker 1: it was in the context of a concert or show, 75 00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:28,920 Speaker 1: So I saw him on stage. I probably related to 76 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:32,359 Speaker 1: him more as a person while watching him perform than 77 00:04:32,440 --> 00:04:36,200 Speaker 1: as I did as a person or as a father, 78 00:04:36,400 --> 00:04:39,120 Speaker 1: you know, living And that was not hard to do 79 00:04:39,200 --> 00:04:42,120 Speaker 1: because his work is so confessional and that's sort of 80 00:04:42,120 --> 00:04:45,280 Speaker 1: really where he became who he really is, and he 81 00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:47,200 Speaker 1: it was where I could get a lot of the 82 00:04:47,279 --> 00:04:51,680 Speaker 1: answers to my questions concerning the family, concerning his his 83 00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:56,920 Speaker 1: inner thoughts and desires and fears and and so going 84 00:04:56,920 --> 00:05:00,279 Speaker 1: to see his shows was always a real education on 85 00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:03,240 Speaker 1: so many levels, whether it was about songwriting or just 86 00:05:03,320 --> 00:05:06,960 Speaker 1: you know, what was going on in my life. It's 87 00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:09,280 Speaker 1: not only a musical family, but you're a family that 88 00:05:09,440 --> 00:05:11,839 Speaker 1: tends to I don't know if you work out your issues, 89 00:05:11,839 --> 00:05:16,240 Speaker 1: but you certainly address your issues. Yes in song. Yes, 90 00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:22,520 Speaker 1: what's that? First of all, where does that impulse come from? Well, 91 00:05:24,520 --> 00:05:28,560 Speaker 1: I mean, arguably it started with my grandfather on my 92 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:32,360 Speaker 1: father's side, with loudon when right the second he was 93 00:05:33,200 --> 00:05:37,120 Speaker 1: a very well known writer for Life Magazine had a 94 00:05:37,160 --> 00:05:40,919 Speaker 1: column for years called the View from Here, which was 95 00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:44,360 Speaker 1: incredibly popular in the sixties, you know, and we're and 96 00:05:44,480 --> 00:05:47,520 Speaker 1: Life Magazine was, you know, the the be all and 97 00:05:47,640 --> 00:05:51,279 Speaker 1: end all of American culture. So so he and he 98 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:54,080 Speaker 1: would write about his kids, and write about his dog, 99 00:05:54,160 --> 00:05:57,479 Speaker 1: and write about Kennedy, or write about you know, his 100 00:05:57,600 --> 00:06:01,600 Speaker 1: relationship to you know, the Moonland or something. So so 101 00:06:01,720 --> 00:06:05,320 Speaker 1: it was that that's that's how that thing was set up. 102 00:06:05,360 --> 00:06:07,839 Speaker 1: So so on my father's side, with my mom, I 103 00:06:07,880 --> 00:06:12,919 Speaker 1: think you know, she got into folk music she then 104 00:06:13,200 --> 00:06:16,560 Speaker 1: and she was obviously quite talented, and she came from 105 00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:20,160 Speaker 1: a generation of singers too that I'm finding out now 106 00:06:20,880 --> 00:06:23,840 Speaker 1: though they were more kind of vaudevillian. But I think 107 00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:27,520 Speaker 1: when she came to, you know, the Philadelphia Folk Festival 108 00:06:28,200 --> 00:06:31,359 Speaker 1: in the sixties and stuff, you know, and Bob Dylan 109 00:06:31,480 --> 00:06:33,320 Speaker 1: was around, and it was just it was the thing 110 00:06:33,400 --> 00:06:38,280 Speaker 1: to do, you know, to really bury your soul and 111 00:06:38,279 --> 00:06:43,400 Speaker 1: and be truthful and kind of live your life through music. 112 00:06:43,560 --> 00:06:47,080 Speaker 1: So so all of that kind of collided. It's strange 113 00:06:47,120 --> 00:06:50,640 Speaker 1: to revisit those songs now, my mother's songs or my 114 00:06:50,680 --> 00:06:53,200 Speaker 1: father's no, but even your songs at dinner at eight 115 00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:55,800 Speaker 1: or other songs you've written. You know, you wrote a 116 00:06:55,839 --> 00:06:59,400 Speaker 1: song to your sister, like your mother being sick. Very personal. Yeah, 117 00:06:59,480 --> 00:07:04,480 Speaker 1: I mean I've I you know, I singing my songs 118 00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:06,360 Speaker 1: is kind of my day job. I mean, I go, 119 00:07:07,720 --> 00:07:11,480 Speaker 1: I have to do shows every month, you know, three 120 00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:15,840 Speaker 1: or four shows at least, just to maintain my existence. 121 00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:21,680 Speaker 1: But financially, and I believe me, I do not have 122 00:07:21,760 --> 00:07:24,160 Speaker 1: the luxury to kind of, you know, pick and choose 123 00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:29,680 Speaker 1: what to present. I have to go with with what works. 124 00:07:29,720 --> 00:07:34,640 Speaker 1: And thankfully, you know, over over my the the crest 125 00:07:34,680 --> 00:07:37,960 Speaker 1: of my career, there have been many periods that I 126 00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:41,720 Speaker 1: can borrow from, and so I'm constantly going in and 127 00:07:41,760 --> 00:07:45,800 Speaker 1: out of those worlds. And and there's songs that I've seen. 128 00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:48,600 Speaker 1: There are many songs I sing now for my first records, 129 00:07:48,640 --> 00:07:51,120 Speaker 1: and yeah, so it's it's not weird to me. I'll 130 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:54,080 Speaker 1: look at good song is a good song, and I'll 131 00:07:54,160 --> 00:08:04,880 Speaker 1: just you know, and an audience deserves that. Tell me 132 00:08:04,960 --> 00:08:09,040 Speaker 1: where in my arms came from? Well, that came from 133 00:08:09,400 --> 00:08:13,640 Speaker 1: I was living in Montreal, Quebec, and uh, you know, 134 00:08:13,720 --> 00:08:18,520 Speaker 1: I had gone to McGill for two seconds. I was 135 00:08:18,560 --> 00:08:20,600 Speaker 1: there for about a year and maybe maybe even a 136 00:08:20,680 --> 00:08:23,360 Speaker 1: year and a half U and I and before that, 137 00:08:23,400 --> 00:08:26,560 Speaker 1: i'd been in boarding school in upstate New York at 138 00:08:26,560 --> 00:08:29,920 Speaker 1: Millbrook School, at the Millbrook School. And when I arrived 139 00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:32,520 Speaker 1: back in Montreal, where I had grown up previously, I 140 00:08:32,559 --> 00:08:35,640 Speaker 1: was I was really excited to sort of dive into 141 00:08:36,160 --> 00:08:41,280 Speaker 1: the heady, head or hedonistic i should say, society that 142 00:08:41,280 --> 00:08:44,560 Speaker 1: that city can offer. And ended up at McGill and 143 00:08:44,720 --> 00:08:48,240 Speaker 1: was shocked by how boring it was and and you know, 144 00:08:48,360 --> 00:08:55,360 Speaker 1: uptight and uh full of truly stayed characters. I hate 145 00:08:55,400 --> 00:08:58,000 Speaker 1: to say it, it it really was. And I can say 146 00:08:58,000 --> 00:08:59,960 Speaker 1: that now because I work in the classical music world 147 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:03,320 Speaker 1: now and with writing operas, so I have a deep 148 00:09:03,360 --> 00:09:06,920 Speaker 1: appreciation for musicians of that ilk. But at that time 149 00:09:06,920 --> 00:09:09,240 Speaker 1: in my life, it was just not what I was 150 00:09:09,240 --> 00:09:12,520 Speaker 1: looking for. I wanted to party my brains out and 151 00:09:12,640 --> 00:09:16,559 Speaker 1: hang out with you know, the Demi moans. So so 152 00:09:16,640 --> 00:09:20,280 Speaker 1: I dropped out of McGill and ended up, you know, 153 00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:23,760 Speaker 1: hanging out a lot on Saint Lawrence Street and going 154 00:09:23,840 --> 00:09:26,760 Speaker 1: to there was a couple of bars there. One was 155 00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:29,680 Speaker 1: called the bif Tech and one was called Miami, and 156 00:09:30,080 --> 00:09:32,199 Speaker 1: I kind of gravitated towards those two. And that was 157 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:35,960 Speaker 1: where all the street urchins hung out. And one of 158 00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:39,680 Speaker 1: them was this boy whose name I can't remember, who 159 00:09:40,160 --> 00:09:42,880 Speaker 1: you know, I just had this brief, very brief affair 160 00:09:42,960 --> 00:09:47,280 Speaker 1: with and he ended up sadly committing suicide. Uh and 161 00:09:47,280 --> 00:09:51,280 Speaker 1: and that song was about him. So it was, yeah, 162 00:09:51,320 --> 00:09:58,280 Speaker 1: how did it come about musically? Well, I mean, I 163 00:09:58,320 --> 00:10:00,480 Speaker 1: you know, I grew up. At that point, I was 164 00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:04,520 Speaker 1: living with my mom and you know, she Kate mcgaragal 165 00:10:04,760 --> 00:10:08,439 Speaker 1: of the mcgarrigols sisters. In my opinion, aside from being 166 00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:11,040 Speaker 1: my mom, I think was also one of the greatest 167 00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:16,199 Speaker 1: talents of her or any other generation in terms of songwriting. 168 00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:18,640 Speaker 1: I mean, both Kate and my aunt Anna wrote some 169 00:10:18,760 --> 00:10:23,480 Speaker 1: of the most perfect music of the seventies and eighties 170 00:10:23,559 --> 00:10:28,840 Speaker 1: and nineties, even and and Kate was very cognizant of 171 00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:32,800 Speaker 1: my desire to follow in the family footsteps and do 172 00:10:32,960 --> 00:10:37,439 Speaker 1: music and become a songwriter. So she really impressed upon 173 00:10:37,520 --> 00:10:40,840 Speaker 1: me that I had to, you know, gather as many 174 00:10:40,920 --> 00:10:45,480 Speaker 1: experiences as possible. She told me explicitly to never get 175 00:10:45,520 --> 00:10:47,679 Speaker 1: a job. She said, don't ever get a job. And 176 00:10:47,720 --> 00:10:50,120 Speaker 1: she ended up giving me an allowance, which was not 177 00:10:50,200 --> 00:10:52,040 Speaker 1: a lot. It was like it was like ten dollars 178 00:10:52,040 --> 00:10:54,720 Speaker 1: a week, which, believe it or not, in those days, 179 00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:56,520 Speaker 1: you could actually, I mean if I was living, if 180 00:10:56,520 --> 00:10:58,240 Speaker 1: you were living with your parents, you could actually do 181 00:10:58,320 --> 00:11:01,080 Speaker 1: quite well on ten dollars a week. So I was 182 00:11:01,280 --> 00:11:03,960 Speaker 1: in that I was allowed to be in that mode 183 00:11:04,200 --> 00:11:07,920 Speaker 1: and at a very young age. And even though at 184 00:11:07,960 --> 00:11:10,320 Speaker 1: times I'm sure my mother was horrified by by what 185 00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:13,080 Speaker 1: I was going through and what I was coming into 186 00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:15,240 Speaker 1: contact with, I think she always knew deep down that 187 00:11:15,280 --> 00:11:17,840 Speaker 1: it was a sort of artistic pursuit and that it 188 00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:20,240 Speaker 1: was as and that as a songwriter, it's kind of 189 00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:23,920 Speaker 1: where I had to go. Do you write every day? 190 00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:26,840 Speaker 1: Did you write every day? Then at that point in 191 00:11:26,880 --> 00:11:34,720 Speaker 1: my life, I was completely ravenous with musical hunger and 192 00:11:34,720 --> 00:11:38,080 Speaker 1: and would write every day and sometimes spend you know, 193 00:11:38,120 --> 00:11:41,360 Speaker 1: five or six hours at the piano just just losing 194 00:11:41,720 --> 00:11:45,679 Speaker 1: myself in it. And uh and that and that had 195 00:11:45,679 --> 00:11:49,120 Speaker 1: started earlier in boarding school. Uh, where I would just 196 00:11:49,160 --> 00:11:50,960 Speaker 1: there was a chapel in our school, and I would 197 00:11:50,960 --> 00:11:52,520 Speaker 1: go there for for a long time. I spend a 198 00:11:52,559 --> 00:11:55,839 Speaker 1: lot of time in church, not praying, but but we'll 199 00:11:55,880 --> 00:11:58,520 Speaker 1: sort of praying in a way. So yeah, No, I 200 00:11:58,559 --> 00:12:02,760 Speaker 1: worked a lot, and uh, yeah, what you have to do? 201 00:12:03,320 --> 00:12:05,760 Speaker 1: Was it always at the piano in those days. Mostly 202 00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:08,959 Speaker 1: at the piano, though, though I incorporated the guitar pretty 203 00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:11,760 Speaker 1: early on, because one of the main things that I 204 00:12:11,840 --> 00:12:14,720 Speaker 1: knew intrinsically was that I had to perform as much 205 00:12:14,760 --> 00:12:18,280 Speaker 1: as possible in front of an audience, and not everybody 206 00:12:18,280 --> 00:12:21,520 Speaker 1: had a piano, so so guitar was a much easier 207 00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:25,920 Speaker 1: way to kind of move your product along. So I 208 00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:30,920 Speaker 1: started writing songs on the guitar. Did the did the 209 00:12:30,960 --> 00:12:34,199 Speaker 1: melody come with the lyric? In may cases, in most 210 00:12:34,280 --> 00:12:38,200 Speaker 1: in the best cases, that it happened simultaneously. And then 211 00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:44,800 Speaker 1: you know, the melody often really completes itself holistically without 212 00:12:44,840 --> 00:12:47,280 Speaker 1: you know, much help, But and then you have to 213 00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:52,000 Speaker 1: kind of grind away at the lyrics afterwards to kind 214 00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:56,160 Speaker 1: of keep up. So, yeah, words are much harder than music. 215 00:12:56,720 --> 00:12:59,320 Speaker 1: You say, the melody completes itself, but you are known 216 00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:02,040 Speaker 1: for you much longer melody. Yeah, I have the most 217 00:13:02,040 --> 00:13:05,959 Speaker 1: pop songs. Yeah yeah, Where does that come from? Where 218 00:13:05,960 --> 00:13:07,760 Speaker 1: does the well, A lot of that comes from my 219 00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:13,400 Speaker 1: love of opera. I, at the age of thirteen, was well, 220 00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:15,200 Speaker 1: at the age of twelve, I was a normal kid, 221 00:13:15,360 --> 00:13:20,640 Speaker 1: vaguely normal. But then at thirteen, I came into contact 222 00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:24,559 Speaker 1: with this recording of Verdie's Requiem with Leontine Price and 223 00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:28,920 Speaker 1: you see burling and and after a two hour stint 224 00:13:28,920 --> 00:13:30,920 Speaker 1: of listening to that from top to bottom, I was 225 00:13:31,320 --> 00:13:36,319 Speaker 1: utterly you know, changed, and and and and and turned 226 00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:40,080 Speaker 1: into this seventy five year old opera in front of 227 00:13:40,080 --> 00:13:45,040 Speaker 1: my horrified parents' faces. And uh and so I but 228 00:13:45,160 --> 00:13:47,679 Speaker 1: I I and though I And it's interesting because you know, 229 00:13:47,760 --> 00:13:50,040 Speaker 1: now my operas are produced and and you know, we 230 00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:53,560 Speaker 1: just premiered Hadrian and with the coec in Toronto, and 231 00:13:53,920 --> 00:13:55,719 Speaker 1: this was a big, great success, and I have and 232 00:13:55,960 --> 00:13:58,360 Speaker 1: that's my second opera, so it's it's not a big 233 00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:00,079 Speaker 1: part of my life. But I knew back then and 234 00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:03,240 Speaker 1: even that that though you know, whether I wrote one 235 00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:05,280 Speaker 1: or not, I kind of knew I'd never be an 236 00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:08,280 Speaker 1: opera singer. But but whether I composed one or not, 237 00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:10,600 Speaker 1: I definitely had the sense that there were so many 238 00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:16,720 Speaker 1: interesting tricks and and and sensibilities and structures in areas 239 00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:20,240 Speaker 1: that I could then incorporate into my own popular material, 240 00:14:20,800 --> 00:14:22,960 Speaker 1: and that and that, and that I'd sort of discovered 241 00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:27,920 Speaker 1: this this treasure trove or a Latin's cave that that 242 00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:31,840 Speaker 1: nobody else knew about, and that I could then you know, translate, 243 00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:34,160 Speaker 1: and and that was I was right in that case. 244 00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:38,320 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, nobody once I hit really hit 245 00:14:38,360 --> 00:14:41,600 Speaker 1: the scene officially, you know, in Los Angeles, uh, with 246 00:14:41,680 --> 00:14:46,120 Speaker 1: my first album, people really had never heard anything quite 247 00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:50,440 Speaker 1: like what I had created. I don't give opera the 248 00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:53,640 Speaker 1: full credit necessarily, but opera was a big component of that. 249 00:14:53,880 --> 00:14:57,200 Speaker 1: Were there times you were literally translating something you'd heard 250 00:14:57,200 --> 00:14:59,440 Speaker 1: in an opera to a pop song or is it 251 00:14:59,520 --> 00:15:02,880 Speaker 1: just more the that kind of things? A few times. 252 00:15:02,920 --> 00:15:06,000 Speaker 1: But I think it was more just the structure of 253 00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:08,840 Speaker 1: of of a song where where there should be a 254 00:15:08,920 --> 00:15:15,080 Speaker 1: kind of climax that occurs. Uh, and then you know 255 00:15:15,280 --> 00:15:18,200 Speaker 1: a denue maw after that. You know, there's a lot 256 00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:20,160 Speaker 1: of a lot of my bridges kind of go into 257 00:15:20,160 --> 00:15:24,280 Speaker 1: these very unusual places and and uh, yeah, it was 258 00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:28,080 Speaker 1: more that sensibility of of of really the the the 259 00:15:27,920 --> 00:15:32,280 Speaker 1: the aria, the or the song dominating the listener and 260 00:15:32,440 --> 00:15:37,040 Speaker 1: making them follow them and not the other way around. 261 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:39,080 Speaker 1: You know. It was never a kind of background music. 262 00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:43,200 Speaker 1: Do you separate writing melodies in your mind when you're 263 00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:45,520 Speaker 1: writing opera. I don't want to go too far ahead, 264 00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:51,360 Speaker 1: but there's certainly I'm thinking of maybe the first aria 265 00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:54,680 Speaker 1: in your first opera in Madonna. Yeah, yeah, that could 266 00:15:54,800 --> 00:15:59,760 Speaker 1: very much be a pop song that g road before 267 00:16:00,880 --> 00:16:04,800 Speaker 1: you heard the Requiem. Was there a pop song that 268 00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:07,360 Speaker 1: that kind of crystallized it for you? I was. I mean, 269 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:12,720 Speaker 1: what I also like to point out is that before opera, 270 00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:16,840 Speaker 1: I was heavily into pop music, and it was a 271 00:16:16,880 --> 00:16:20,840 Speaker 1: glorious period. You know, from about the age of seven 272 00:16:21,360 --> 00:16:26,160 Speaker 1: until thirteen, it was you know, the arrhythmics. Cindi Lauper, 273 00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:32,240 Speaker 1: Prince Tina Turner. I was really into the Thompson Twins, 274 00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:35,800 Speaker 1: Blondie you know, and stuff. So you know, once in 275 00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:38,120 Speaker 1: the mid eighties when it started to get a little 276 00:16:38,160 --> 00:16:41,200 Speaker 1: more or the late eighties, you know, around around you know, 277 00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:42,680 Speaker 1: I don't want to I don't I don't like to 278 00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:44,600 Speaker 1: put down people, but you know, like Huey Lewis and 279 00:16:44,680 --> 00:16:46,480 Speaker 1: the News, which you know, I think in retrospect you 280 00:16:46,560 --> 00:16:47,800 Speaker 1: kind of look at their stuff and you're like, it 281 00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:50,760 Speaker 1: was kind of amazing, but it was it got a 282 00:16:50,800 --> 00:16:54,760 Speaker 1: little heterosecond. It just got a heteronormative at a certain 283 00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:57,760 Speaker 1: point for me especially, and then and then the whole 284 00:16:57,760 --> 00:17:03,760 Speaker 1: grunge thing happened, which was simultaneous to my opera phase. 285 00:17:04,480 --> 00:17:08,200 Speaker 1: And I think, oddly enough, you know, the opera, my opera, 286 00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:11,640 Speaker 1: my love for opera was a similar kind of desire 287 00:17:11,760 --> 00:17:14,480 Speaker 1: that a lot of kids had when they got into 288 00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:16,800 Speaker 1: Kirk Cobain and stuff. It was this desire for you know, 289 00:17:16,960 --> 00:17:20,800 Speaker 1: a certain darkness that that the world needed at that point. 290 00:17:21,320 --> 00:17:25,520 Speaker 1: And you said, personally, you were you were around fourteen 291 00:17:25,520 --> 00:17:28,360 Speaker 1: at that point, Yeah, you'd come out. Well, I'd come 292 00:17:28,359 --> 00:17:30,800 Speaker 1: out to myself. I mean I hadn't, I hadn't come 293 00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:33,320 Speaker 1: out to anyone officially, but I knew I was I was. 294 00:17:33,359 --> 00:17:39,200 Speaker 1: I was. I was engaged in you know, sexual things. 295 00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:44,720 Speaker 1: I was all an aids. Was was decimating you know, 296 00:17:44,800 --> 00:17:48,320 Speaker 1: the world around me. And I had to go to 297 00:17:48,359 --> 00:17:52,400 Speaker 1: boarding school at that point. So what was the appeal 298 00:17:52,640 --> 00:17:56,639 Speaker 1: of opera at that particular point. Yeah, beyond the music 299 00:17:56,680 --> 00:17:58,560 Speaker 1: that you loved, that you talked about the well it was, 300 00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:03,480 Speaker 1: I mean it was it really spoke to the darkness 301 00:18:03,560 --> 00:18:06,399 Speaker 1: that that that was surrounding me. And uh, you know, 302 00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:11,000 Speaker 1: I I had sex first when I was around thirteen, 303 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:15,359 Speaker 1: around that time, and that I that I started, you know, 304 00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:19,760 Speaker 1: listening to opera, and I thought for a good ten 305 00:18:19,880 --> 00:18:22,680 Speaker 1: years that I was going to die. And and honestly 306 00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:25,520 Speaker 1: and in retrospect, there was a very good chance that 307 00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:29,280 Speaker 1: could have happened. You know, you know, every pimple, every 308 00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:33,679 Speaker 1: you know, scrape suddenly was corposed to sarcoma. You know. 309 00:18:33,760 --> 00:18:40,720 Speaker 1: It was this you know, real trauma that opera thrives off, 310 00:18:41,119 --> 00:18:43,760 Speaker 1: you know, And so I got a lot of solace 311 00:18:43,800 --> 00:18:47,679 Speaker 1: from that and a lot of answers, you know, in 312 00:18:47,760 --> 00:18:50,040 Speaker 1: terms of you know, the bigger questions and you know, 313 00:18:50,119 --> 00:18:52,240 Speaker 1: and what really matters and you know, the power of 314 00:18:52,280 --> 00:18:55,440 Speaker 1: love and the power of forgiveness and the power of transcendence, 315 00:18:55,840 --> 00:19:00,560 Speaker 1: which opera always does. So so I do think also 316 00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:03,680 Speaker 1: that there are these opera gods, and there's this kind 317 00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:09,040 Speaker 1: of spiritual realm where opera resides, and that those ghosts 318 00:19:09,119 --> 00:19:11,479 Speaker 1: kind of chose me as well, like there was that 319 00:19:11,520 --> 00:19:13,800 Speaker 1: there was like the art form came to me and 320 00:19:13,960 --> 00:19:17,320 Speaker 1: was like, we want you to uh do our bidding 321 00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:20,360 Speaker 1: in a very spooky kind of way. Because I've I've 322 00:19:20,480 --> 00:19:23,600 Speaker 1: I've had experiences like that with opera since then, where 323 00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:29,280 Speaker 1: it's very very there's a supernatural quality to that music 324 00:19:29,320 --> 00:19:32,760 Speaker 1: that that I wholly believe in, you know, like like 325 00:19:32,840 --> 00:19:36,080 Speaker 1: people believe in Jesus Christ or you know, stuff like that, 326 00:19:36,119 --> 00:19:38,800 Speaker 1: I believe in opera in that way. Do you believe 327 00:19:38,840 --> 00:19:41,560 Speaker 1: that of other music? Have there been other kinds of 328 00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:45,000 Speaker 1: music or songs that have changed the way maybe you've written? No, 329 00:19:45,080 --> 00:19:48,479 Speaker 1: I mean I I I view all other music as 330 00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:53,399 Speaker 1: as kind of as beautiful and fascinating and and and 331 00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:57,639 Speaker 1: and and magical, but not not. Opera is like a 332 00:19:57,680 --> 00:20:01,560 Speaker 1: religion for me that I think, you know, it helped 333 00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:05,520 Speaker 1: me at that point. It also helped me greatly down 334 00:20:05,560 --> 00:20:07,800 Speaker 1: the line when I was struggling with drugs and alcohol, 335 00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:10,840 Speaker 1: and then it also helped me when my mother was dying, 336 00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:14,119 Speaker 1: and and I'm sure it'll help me, you know, in 337 00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:18,680 Speaker 1: future disasters. If there's any that will help you get 338 00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:21,399 Speaker 1: through this interview, you feel free to put it on. 339 00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:25,919 Speaker 1: That's a song sort of addressed to my daughter Viva, 340 00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:28,960 Speaker 1: and it's I think it's going to make it on 341 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:32,359 Speaker 1: the new record. And she's how old now she's seven 342 00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:34,520 Speaker 1: and a half. There's a new there's a there's a 343 00:20:34,560 --> 00:20:37,600 Speaker 1: requirement in my family at this point, but with both 344 00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:41,960 Speaker 1: Viva and your and my husband who who basically have 345 00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:44,640 Speaker 1: stated that the rule is I have to have one 346 00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:49,520 Speaker 1: song about them on each record. So it's it's it's 347 00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:53,919 Speaker 1: it's my quota. Kind of do you do more than one? Well, 348 00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:56,600 Speaker 1: I've etten about three three songs about Viva and three 349 00:20:56,640 --> 00:21:00,880 Speaker 1: about him regardless, but it was Respectable Dive about him 350 00:21:01,119 --> 00:21:05,119 Speaker 1: that that yes, Respectable Dive is about our relationship for sure. 351 00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:08,640 Speaker 1: But yeah, but this this latest one is is very 352 00:21:08,640 --> 00:21:13,199 Speaker 1: it's a short little ditty about about Viva. So our 353 00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:18,000 Speaker 1: debt are directed towards Viva. Okay, beyond the contractual requirements 354 00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:22,040 Speaker 1: in your family, Yes, to write about. Yeah, what what 355 00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:24,760 Speaker 1: prompted the song? Well, you know, I just wanted to 356 00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:27,199 Speaker 1: write a little something, you know. You know, Viva was 357 00:21:27,240 --> 00:21:32,000 Speaker 1: born under very unusual circumstances, you know, which which at 358 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:34,760 Speaker 1: this point is not unusual. I mean, it's where we're 359 00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:40,720 Speaker 1: living in this amorphous world. Obviously that's changing so quickly, 360 00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:45,120 Speaker 1: and and and you know there's the common traditional family 361 00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:49,639 Speaker 1: construct is shifting, and and Viva is really on the 362 00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:51,720 Speaker 1: front lines of that, you know, because you know her 363 00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:54,640 Speaker 1: mother and I aren't together as a couple, and and 364 00:21:54,800 --> 00:21:57,320 Speaker 1: you know, I'm gay, and and and I have a husband, 365 00:21:57,400 --> 00:21:59,520 Speaker 1: and she she loves him, and she loves me. So 366 00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:02,360 Speaker 1: it's just sort of frame that a little bit for her, 367 00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:06,280 Speaker 1: the explanation of that, and in a very whimsical way. 368 00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:09,520 Speaker 1: And also because I think it's a it's a fascinating 369 00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:13,960 Speaker 1: story in a lot of ways. How how how she 370 00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:18,199 Speaker 1: was brought about. She definitely wanted to She definitely is 371 00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:23,680 Speaker 1: meant to be here. I can tell you that emphatically, 372 00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:29,320 Speaker 1: contracts were signed. Well, I mean, I think I think 373 00:22:29,359 --> 00:22:32,760 Speaker 1: it's more, you know, you really what's fascinating with kids, 374 00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:36,600 Speaker 1: And I don't think that when parents were in more 375 00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:40,800 Speaker 1: traditional positions that that they could maybe grasp this as 376 00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:43,879 Speaker 1: well as parents can now who are now you know, 377 00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:47,640 Speaker 1: have all these choices, they realize how much it's really 378 00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:50,480 Speaker 1: the kid that that has made the decision to arrive, 379 00:22:51,119 --> 00:22:53,359 Speaker 1: you know, because once that person is in your life, 380 00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:57,679 Speaker 1: it really fits into where you need to be and 381 00:22:57,720 --> 00:22:59,920 Speaker 1: what you need to be doing, and and how you 382 00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:05,480 Speaker 1: need to adjust your existence to cater to this new soul. 383 00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:08,399 Speaker 1: And I think a lot of that was taken for 384 00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:12,040 Speaker 1: granted when there weren't these other avenues available. And now 385 00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:14,200 Speaker 1: that there's you know, all these different types of families 386 00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:17,159 Speaker 1: and and and kids are you know, brought up by 387 00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:20,199 Speaker 1: all different types of people. It's just the kids, know, 388 00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:23,879 Speaker 1: you know, they made they made they made this that choice. 389 00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:26,359 Speaker 1: It's that thing of the kids choosing the parents as 390 00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:28,480 Speaker 1: opposed to the parents choosing the kid. I think that 391 00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:34,640 Speaker 1: is very powerfully proven in this era. I have two 392 00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:37,280 Speaker 1: young kids, and it is incredible how they basically drive 393 00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:41,080 Speaker 1: the agenda. Yeah, no, they totally. I have amazing faith 394 00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:45,480 Speaker 1: and young people and and and children of this in 395 00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:48,399 Speaker 1: this time and and and really feel like in a 396 00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:51,640 Speaker 1: lot of ways sadly that it's though, you know, though 397 00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:54,440 Speaker 1: my parents' generation, my generation, I don't know what the 398 00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:57,040 Speaker 1: hell we're doing. But but my parents' generation was so 399 00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:02,360 Speaker 1: dominant and is now you know, with Trump obviously kind 400 00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:07,560 Speaker 1: of hard to knock out. But but the younger generation, 401 00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:12,600 Speaker 1: the kids, my daughter and and and so forth, they 402 00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:15,040 Speaker 1: they're going to figure this out. I think I've heard 403 00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:16,880 Speaker 1: you do a lot of Leonard Cohen songs, and there's 404 00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:18,919 Speaker 1: a connection to your daughter there. Yes, yes, and he 405 00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:22,120 Speaker 1: is the grandfather of my daughter. Did you know him 406 00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:24,440 Speaker 1: in Montreal or I didn't know him in Montreal at all? 407 00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:26,840 Speaker 1: I mean I knew him in La I didn't know 408 00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:30,520 Speaker 1: I mean I met Laura once, that the daughter his daughter, 409 00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:33,520 Speaker 1: when when I was in Montreal, very briefly. But then 410 00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:35,760 Speaker 1: it was really when I came to California that that 411 00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:38,040 Speaker 1: was your relationship with him? We know, we had a 412 00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:41,520 Speaker 1: really interesting relationship. I mean I would in no way 413 00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:47,800 Speaker 1: pretend to be a good friend of his. We were 414 00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:50,760 Speaker 1: we were definitely bound by something. I mean, there was 415 00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:54,240 Speaker 1: there was a kind of acceptance. He had an acceptance 416 00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:59,000 Speaker 1: of me that I think was very rare, but not 417 00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:02,760 Speaker 1: at all open either, you know, it wasn't he kind 418 00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:05,560 Speaker 1: of I don't think he tolerated me necessarily, but but 419 00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:08,720 Speaker 1: he he knew I was going to stick around, and 420 00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:12,919 Speaker 1: he he made some room for me, you know, in 421 00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:16,560 Speaker 1: his world. And then when things you know, picked up, 422 00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:19,600 Speaker 1: and later on and we you know, Laura and I 423 00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:23,760 Speaker 1: decided to have a child, he was I think he 424 00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:27,359 Speaker 1: was very happy about that, and uh sadly, you know, 425 00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:31,400 Speaker 1: his health declined soon after Viva was born, but they 426 00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:32,960 Speaker 1: got to spend a lot of time together. You know, 427 00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:36,000 Speaker 1: they actually kind of all lived together. So, I mean, 428 00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:38,960 Speaker 1: my my favorite Leonard thing that that impressed me and 429 00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:40,560 Speaker 1: that I'll always remember him for is that, you know, 430 00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:44,760 Speaker 1: when my first opera was was was produced, there was 431 00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:48,399 Speaker 1: a New Yorker that came out New Yorker magazine and 432 00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:50,560 Speaker 1: there was a big advertisement for it, for the New 433 00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:53,320 Speaker 1: York City Opera and on one page was Prima Donna 434 00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:55,960 Speaker 1: and on the other page was a lat of traviata. Now, 435 00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:58,600 Speaker 1: Leonard had always been you know, I think he liked 436 00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:02,000 Speaker 1: liked my music, I think, and he appreciated my talent. 437 00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:05,280 Speaker 1: I think he respected me greatly, but he wasn't at 438 00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:08,159 Speaker 1: all effusive or you know, he didn't come to my 439 00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:12,000 Speaker 1: shows or anything like anything like that. But when that 440 00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:14,879 Speaker 1: New Yorker came out and he saw the two you know, 441 00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:18,760 Speaker 1: operas one next to each other. He came down and 442 00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:21,080 Speaker 1: he kind of grabbed me and he says, you know, Rufless, 443 00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:24,720 Speaker 1: this is really amazing. This is I am so impressed 444 00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:27,000 Speaker 1: by that. And I could tell deep down that he 445 00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:30,359 Speaker 1: was that he was, that he was really he was 446 00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:34,160 Speaker 1: impressed and proud of me, you know, for doing that, 447 00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:35,879 Speaker 1: because I think it was something that he could have 448 00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:38,479 Speaker 1: never done, you know, and it was something that he was. 449 00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:42,399 Speaker 1: It was like a whole other universe that he certainly 450 00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:44,879 Speaker 1: had a lot of respect for. But that but but 451 00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:48,720 Speaker 1: that also didn't necessarily, you know, encroach on history. So 452 00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:50,960 Speaker 1: but he was he was, and that was That was 453 00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:53,159 Speaker 1: a great comfort to me and a great sort of 454 00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:59,959 Speaker 1: impetus to continue. Yeah, did he did his songwriting influence 455 00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:04,840 Speaker 1: yours at all? I mean, I think his I don't 456 00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:09,280 Speaker 1: know if his style musical style necessarily influenced me too much. 457 00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:14,760 Speaker 1: I would say, you know, his lyrics are second to none, obviously, 458 00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:21,080 Speaker 1: and I've often hoped that there might be you know, 459 00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:25,399 Speaker 1: a glimmer of similarity here and there in some of 460 00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:29,159 Speaker 1: my lines. I you know that that that that I 461 00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:31,560 Speaker 1: do think the way I write is completely different. I 462 00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:36,640 Speaker 1: think he's far superior, uh in that department. But uh, 463 00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:39,439 Speaker 1: but I but I've always kept him as a as 464 00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:42,000 Speaker 1: a as a beacon, you know, uh for for in 465 00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:46,040 Speaker 1: terms of words, uh, someone to you know, put keep 466 00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:47,800 Speaker 1: in the back of your mind. I do want to 467 00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:52,040 Speaker 1: talk about one more song, and this is called the 468 00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:56,240 Speaker 1: sort of Damicles. Yes, yes, tell me about that song. Yeah. Well, 469 00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:58,760 Speaker 1: I've been hanging out quite a bit with Carrie Fisher 470 00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:06,320 Speaker 1: before she died and before she went to London. I 471 00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:09,199 Speaker 1: was at her house and you know, it was it 472 00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:14,199 Speaker 1: was a nutty period and and she was on her 473 00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:18,359 Speaker 1: on the phone with her attorney, screaming at him talking 474 00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:20,760 Speaker 1: about how she felt like the sword of Damocles was 475 00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:23,600 Speaker 1: over her head. And it kind of I just just 476 00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:27,440 Speaker 1: resonated that that saying, and that just sort of started 477 00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:31,879 Speaker 1: rolling around in my in my subconscious and uh and 478 00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:34,639 Speaker 1: I just started writing this song about about Damocles. And 479 00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:38,880 Speaker 1: then during the writing of it, I realized that, you 480 00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:42,600 Speaker 1: know that that's when you know Trump won the election. 481 00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:46,240 Speaker 1: I hadn't finished it yet, so it was it was 482 00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:49,680 Speaker 1: one of these kind of there was an ominous quality, 483 00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:52,480 Speaker 1: you know, to this song. And also, you know, Carrie 484 00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:56,960 Speaker 1: sadly passed away right before the election or maybe yeah, 485 00:28:56,960 --> 00:28:58,440 Speaker 1: it was right or maybe it was right after, but 486 00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:02,160 Speaker 1: it was it was around that period. And so there 487 00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:08,400 Speaker 1: was this there was just this dark spirit roaming uh 488 00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:11,600 Speaker 1: that I that my you know, songwriting instincts were picking 489 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:13,400 Speaker 1: up on. And it had to do with Dancles. And 490 00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:16,800 Speaker 1: then I didn't actually know the story. So then I thought, 491 00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:19,520 Speaker 1: you know, it might be good to actually know what 492 00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:23,520 Speaker 1: I'm writing about, So I googled Damocles and uh and 493 00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:27,400 Speaker 1: and learned the story by Cicero, which is actually about 494 00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:31,200 Speaker 1: you know, a king who is being courted by by 495 00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:34,600 Speaker 1: one of his subjects, uh, Damcles and and the Damles 496 00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:36,680 Speaker 1: thing is almost be wonderful to be king. And then 497 00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:40,200 Speaker 1: you know they switched places mystically and and and Dan 498 00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:43,840 Speaker 1: mccles is then the king and but he noticed the 499 00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:46,920 Speaker 1: sword over his head and and and the ideas that 500 00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:50,040 Speaker 1: with you know, great power comes great responsibility and also 501 00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:52,960 Speaker 1: great danger. So I so then I finished the song 502 00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:58,080 Speaker 1: with with having known the actual myth. And and also 503 00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:00,920 Speaker 1: after you know, Trump had been elect to president, and 504 00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:05,760 Speaker 1: it's just sort of all fit sadly very well, and 505 00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:10,080 Speaker 1: what I'll say about Dan mccles though about this song 506 00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:11,840 Speaker 1: is that it's not only and I think this is 507 00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:15,600 Speaker 1: important to point out, is that in the song, for instance, 508 00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:17,080 Speaker 1: at the end of it, I say, you know, I 509 00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:21,080 Speaker 1: am a tyrant, meaning that you know, when the sword 510 00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:24,479 Speaker 1: of Dan mcle's falls, it's on all of us, you know, 511 00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:28,920 Speaker 1: And it's not really and it should fall, it needs 512 00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:34,320 Speaker 1: to happen, but it's going to really devastate everyone. And I, 513 00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:36,960 Speaker 1: you know, I think we're just preparing for it right now, 514 00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:42,080 Speaker 1: but we will hopefully prevail. And that's when I go 515 00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:45,360 Speaker 1: to the younger generation and I realize that they do 516 00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:51,560 Speaker 1: seem ready to fight. That was rufus Wayne Wright in 517 00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:55,840 Speaker 1: conversation with Bruce Headler. Broken Records produced by Meil Label 518 00:30:56,080 --> 00:31:01,720 Speaker 1: and Jason Gambrell, with help from Bruce Hedler, Pascal, Jacob Smith, 519 00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:07,960 Speaker 1: Julia Barton, Justin Richmond, Jacob Weisberg, and of course LFA recruit. 520 00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:11,840 Speaker 1: To hear all of the songs featured in today's episode, 521 00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:16,280 Speaker 1: check out Broken Record podcast dot com. This show is 522 00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:25,520 Speaker 1: brought to you by Pushkin Industries. I'm Malcolm Glampa. When 523 00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:28,880 Speaker 1: I was growing up, my father dubbed our garden cart Rufus. 524 00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:30,640 Speaker 1: So every time I see Rufus Reynard, I think of 525 00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:35,840 Speaker 1: the garden cart by the way. Pushkin was the name 526 00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:41,040 Speaker 1: of our first dog. That's where that comes from.