1 00:00:03,920 --> 00:00:07,320 Speaker 1: Hey bessies, Hey fam Today on the bright Side, we're 2 00:00:07,400 --> 00:00:10,280 Speaker 1: so thrilled to bring you another bonus episode, and this 3 00:00:10,400 --> 00:00:13,600 Speaker 1: time it's a shelf Life celebration. We're sharing some of 4 00:00:13,640 --> 00:00:17,919 Speaker 1: our favorite moments from our conversations with Reese's book Club authors. 5 00:00:18,400 --> 00:00:21,680 Speaker 2: We love talking to all these authors and hearing them 6 00:00:21,760 --> 00:00:24,560 Speaker 2: read their own writing. It's always so compelling to hear 7 00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:28,280 Speaker 2: the personal stories and learn what inspires them. So today 8 00:00:28,280 --> 00:00:32,880 Speaker 2: we're featuring j Courtney Sullivan, Alexian Ferrell, Falmouth, and Ali Condy. 9 00:00:33,120 --> 00:00:35,560 Speaker 1: And if you missed any of these episodes, do not worry. 10 00:00:35,560 --> 00:00:38,080 Speaker 1: We'll catch you up through this episode. And if you're 11 00:00:38,120 --> 00:00:40,519 Speaker 1: interested in checking out the full episode, go to our 12 00:00:40,520 --> 00:00:42,240 Speaker 1: show notes and we'll have more info there. 13 00:00:42,720 --> 00:00:47,080 Speaker 2: Okay, let's dive in, y'all. First up, we have a 14 00:00:47,120 --> 00:00:49,720 Speaker 2: clip from our episode with Jay Courtney Sullivan, the New 15 00:00:49,800 --> 00:00:52,440 Speaker 2: York Times best selling author of The Cliffs. 16 00:00:52,880 --> 00:00:55,800 Speaker 1: The Cliffs was the Reese's book Club pick this past July, 17 00:00:56,080 --> 00:00:58,160 Speaker 1: and it tells the story of a woman named Jane 18 00:00:58,200 --> 00:01:01,520 Speaker 1: Flanagan who moves home to the main coast after making 19 00:01:01,640 --> 00:01:04,720 Speaker 1: a terrible mistake that puts her career and marriage at risk, 20 00:01:05,240 --> 00:01:08,840 Speaker 1: and the abandoned Victorian house that has captivated her imagination 21 00:01:09,200 --> 00:01:10,320 Speaker 1: since she was a teenager. 22 00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:15,280 Speaker 2: History reverberates through all of Courtney's meticulously researched novels, and 23 00:01:15,319 --> 00:01:18,600 Speaker 2: The Cliffs is no exception. Courtney joined us to unpack 24 00:01:18,640 --> 00:01:22,320 Speaker 2: some questions about place and identity and maybe get a 25 00:01:22,319 --> 00:01:26,440 Speaker 2: little woo woo with us in the best way. You 26 00:01:26,520 --> 00:01:30,720 Speaker 2: say that your primary obsession with fiction is this idea 27 00:01:30,800 --> 00:01:34,120 Speaker 2: that quote, the moment a woman is born will determine 28 00:01:34,240 --> 00:01:37,039 Speaker 2: so much of what she's allowed to become. That is 29 00:01:37,080 --> 00:01:39,360 Speaker 2: such a powerful thought. Can you share what you mean 30 00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:39,640 Speaker 2: by that? 31 00:01:40,040 --> 00:01:40,320 Speaker 1: Yeah. 32 00:01:40,400 --> 00:01:43,080 Speaker 3: I think all of my books, although they're very different 33 00:01:43,160 --> 00:01:47,240 Speaker 3: in their subject matter, come back around to that central idea, 34 00:01:47,680 --> 00:01:51,720 Speaker 3: of course, their self determination. But also we always exist 35 00:01:51,800 --> 00:01:55,800 Speaker 3: within the confines of our cultural moment. So when I'm 36 00:01:55,840 --> 00:02:00,400 Speaker 3: writing about generations of women in one family. My book 37 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:03,400 Speaker 3: Saints for All Occasions is about an Irish Catholic family 38 00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:06,840 Speaker 3: very similar to my own in some ways, and I 39 00:02:06,880 --> 00:02:10,200 Speaker 3: think about the matriarch in that book, who, like my 40 00:02:10,400 --> 00:02:14,400 Speaker 3: own great grandmother, came over alone from Ireland at the 41 00:02:14,440 --> 00:02:18,960 Speaker 3: age of sixteen to Boston and is the reason our 42 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:22,640 Speaker 3: family has been American ever since. You know, and I 43 00:02:22,680 --> 00:02:24,680 Speaker 3: think about what I was able to do when I 44 00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:27,960 Speaker 3: was sixteen, and the thought of just like crossing an 45 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:32,480 Speaker 3: ocean and starting a whole new life is so incredible 46 00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:36,280 Speaker 3: to me. That was my great grandmother in her particular moment, 47 00:02:36,360 --> 00:02:38,880 Speaker 3: and because of what she did in her particular moment, 48 00:02:39,480 --> 00:02:42,720 Speaker 3: each subsequent generation has been able to get as far 49 00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:44,239 Speaker 3: as we've been able to get. 50 00:02:44,560 --> 00:02:47,680 Speaker 1: Do you think about her and like call in her strength? 51 00:02:47,720 --> 00:02:47,919 Speaker 4: Ever? 52 00:02:48,960 --> 00:02:51,919 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, definitely. I mean this book The Cliffs is 53 00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:54,239 Speaker 3: you know, very woo woo in a lot of ways, 54 00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:56,280 Speaker 3: and I'm pretty woo woo in a lot of ways, 55 00:02:56,320 --> 00:02:58,920 Speaker 3: And so I almost think of my grandmother, my great grandmother, 56 00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:01,520 Speaker 3: or my mother, myself, you know, my daughter now, like 57 00:03:01,720 --> 00:03:08,000 Speaker 3: versions of the same person, just with different external possibilities, 58 00:03:08,040 --> 00:03:10,320 Speaker 3: And of course that shifts and changes who you are 59 00:03:10,360 --> 00:03:13,760 Speaker 3: internally as well. And I with every book I write, 60 00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:18,120 Speaker 3: you know, I wrote this novel, The Engagements, and that's 61 00:03:18,160 --> 00:03:21,400 Speaker 3: the only book I've written that had a real person 62 00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:24,840 Speaker 3: at its center. Francis Garrity, who wrote the line A 63 00:03:24,960 --> 00:03:29,480 Speaker 3: Diamond is Forever in the nineteen forties, and I still 64 00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:32,240 Speaker 3: think about her all the time. I even this is 65 00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:34,480 Speaker 3: really Woo Woo had. When I was really in the 66 00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:38,240 Speaker 3: thick of writing that book, I had a dream where 67 00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:40,760 Speaker 3: like I was her in the dream from her point 68 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:42,600 Speaker 3: of view, which I've never had that happen before. I 69 00:03:42,640 --> 00:03:46,240 Speaker 3: don't know if that makes sense now, but I get 70 00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:48,200 Speaker 3: so close with all the women in my books, she's 71 00:03:48,240 --> 00:03:50,960 Speaker 3: the only one who was actually a real person. 72 00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:54,640 Speaker 1: One of the things that feels really distinctive about you 73 00:03:54,720 --> 00:03:57,440 Speaker 1: and your writing that I haven't heard a lot of 74 00:03:57,480 --> 00:04:00,120 Speaker 1: authors say is that you include a piece of of 75 00:04:00,440 --> 00:04:03,960 Speaker 1: your personal story in your novels. With the Cliffs, your 76 00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:07,800 Speaker 1: main character, Jane and her family struggle with alcoholism, and 77 00:04:07,840 --> 00:04:10,920 Speaker 1: you've shared that you are eight years sober, which is 78 00:04:11,080 --> 00:04:14,640 Speaker 1: just such a huge accomplishment, and so I'm curious as 79 00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:16,800 Speaker 1: to why you wanted to include that in this story. 80 00:04:17,400 --> 00:04:20,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I think that when I'm writing a novel, 81 00:04:21,080 --> 00:04:25,000 Speaker 3: it's never because I feel like I have this clear 82 00:04:25,080 --> 00:04:27,320 Speaker 3: cut thing to tell the world or that I have 83 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:30,800 Speaker 3: all the answers. It's more that whatever the burning question 84 00:04:30,920 --> 00:04:34,160 Speaker 3: in my mind is, I want to explore it and 85 00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:36,880 Speaker 3: find out how I really feel about it. And the 86 00:04:36,920 --> 00:04:39,080 Speaker 3: way to do that for me is writing fiction that's 87 00:04:39,080 --> 00:04:43,200 Speaker 3: sort of how I process everything. And so for me 88 00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:46,080 Speaker 3: writing this book, you know, I started it four years 89 00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:48,040 Speaker 3: into being sober, and I've been working on it for 90 00:04:48,080 --> 00:04:52,240 Speaker 3: four years. In some ways very helpful because Jane is 91 00:04:52,279 --> 00:04:54,960 Speaker 3: such a hot mess of a drinker that it didn't 92 00:04:55,040 --> 00:04:56,880 Speaker 3: make me want to drink, you know, writing what she 93 00:04:57,000 --> 00:04:58,719 Speaker 3: does all the time is like, oh, thank. 94 00:04:58,600 --> 00:04:59,679 Speaker 2: God, I don't drink anymore. 95 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:04,040 Speaker 3: But I think when you are a drinker, when you 96 00:05:04,120 --> 00:05:09,560 Speaker 3: have made mistakes like Jane does, like I have, the 97 00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:14,440 Speaker 3: silver lining of that is like you forgive people more easily. 98 00:05:14,520 --> 00:05:18,880 Speaker 3: You understand that everyone makes crazy mistakes all the time, 99 00:05:19,640 --> 00:05:22,200 Speaker 3: and people have forgiven you, so you can extend that 100 00:05:22,320 --> 00:05:28,000 Speaker 3: grace to them. Jane, I wanted her to be in 101 00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:32,640 Speaker 3: the process of figuring it out, so she isn't, you know, 102 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:34,440 Speaker 3: wildly drunken. 103 00:05:34,520 --> 00:05:38,000 Speaker 2: In every chapter. She isn't reformed. 104 00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:40,800 Speaker 3: She's kind of in the middle, and she's still hoping 105 00:05:40,920 --> 00:05:43,600 Speaker 3: she doesn't have a problem, even though she knows she does. 106 00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:46,840 Speaker 3: I also really wanted to write about because I think 107 00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:50,520 Speaker 3: it's very common of a high functioning woman, a woman 108 00:05:50,520 --> 00:05:54,080 Speaker 3: who's so good at her job, a woman who people 109 00:05:54,120 --> 00:05:58,120 Speaker 3: don't think of as an alcoholic until you know she's 110 00:05:58,200 --> 00:06:00,760 Speaker 3: very good at kind of siloing the different parts of 111 00:06:00,800 --> 00:06:02,480 Speaker 3: her life until she. 112 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:06,760 Speaker 2: Is You mentioned that every book starts with an open 113 00:06:06,880 --> 00:06:10,479 Speaker 2: ended question. For you, what was the question that launched 114 00:06:10,520 --> 00:06:12,640 Speaker 2: the cliffs? That's a great question. 115 00:06:13,080 --> 00:06:15,200 Speaker 3: So this time around, I write a book about this 116 00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:22,040 Speaker 3: woman who reluctantly returns to her hometown and this big 117 00:06:22,160 --> 00:06:24,960 Speaker 3: Victorian house. And in the process of writing this book, 118 00:06:25,040 --> 00:06:28,120 Speaker 3: I have left New York after twenty two years there 119 00:06:28,760 --> 00:06:32,320 Speaker 3: moved home to my hometown, something I truly never in 120 00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:34,719 Speaker 3: a million years though would happen. And my husband and 121 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:38,159 Speaker 3: I and our kids now live in this Victorian house 122 00:06:38,279 --> 00:06:42,160 Speaker 3: with a plaque on the front door that is exactly 123 00:06:42,720 --> 00:06:45,599 Speaker 3: like the house in the book. And so in the book, 124 00:06:45,640 --> 00:06:47,279 Speaker 3: there's a plaque on the side of the house and 125 00:06:47,320 --> 00:06:50,080 Speaker 3: it says it's the Samuel Littleton House, right, and it 126 00:06:50,279 --> 00:06:53,520 Speaker 3: has the date that this house was built. Really, it's 127 00:06:53,560 --> 00:06:57,240 Speaker 3: the what lives of women that have sort of permeated 128 00:06:57,240 --> 00:07:00,400 Speaker 3: that house and the land on which it sits, and 129 00:07:00,880 --> 00:07:04,320 Speaker 3: the idea that if you put your name on something, 130 00:07:04,360 --> 00:07:06,440 Speaker 3: if you put a plaque on something, that means you 131 00:07:06,520 --> 00:07:09,760 Speaker 3: discovered it. I wanted to kind of really explore that 132 00:07:09,920 --> 00:07:12,120 Speaker 3: and turn it on its head, and this sort of 133 00:07:12,160 --> 00:07:16,040 Speaker 3: idea of retelling history, looking at it through a different 134 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:20,320 Speaker 3: lens and thinking about whose stories do get told and 135 00:07:20,440 --> 00:07:22,360 Speaker 3: uplifted and preserved. 136 00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:26,920 Speaker 2: We have to take a quick break, but we'll be 137 00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:31,320 Speaker 2: right back with more clips from our favorite shelf life moments. 138 00:07:40,200 --> 00:07:41,840 Speaker 2: We're back up. 139 00:07:41,880 --> 00:07:43,920 Speaker 1: Next, we have a clip from our conversation with the 140 00:07:43,960 --> 00:07:46,920 Speaker 1: author of Twelfth Night, Alexin Ferrel, Falmouth. 141 00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:50,520 Speaker 2: Alexin has published several best selling fantasy novels, including the 142 00:07:50,600 --> 00:07:53,960 Speaker 2: Atlas series and Masters of Death, all under the pen 143 00:07:54,080 --> 00:07:58,040 Speaker 2: name Olivi Blake. She only just recently started publishing books 144 00:07:58,120 --> 00:08:00,520 Speaker 2: using her real name Alexi and far Whah Fall myth 145 00:08:00,720 --> 00:08:02,960 Speaker 2: when she began writing novels for young adults. 146 00:08:03,320 --> 00:08:06,320 Speaker 1: So Twelfth Night was the Reese's book Club summer ya pick, 147 00:08:06,360 --> 00:08:09,360 Speaker 1: and it's a modern retelling of the Shakespeare play, although 148 00:08:09,400 --> 00:08:13,760 Speaker 1: in Alexin's version, Twelfth Night is spelled k nig ht I. 149 00:08:13,800 --> 00:08:16,200 Speaker 2: See what she did there. Alexin sat down with us 150 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:18,840 Speaker 2: to talk about lessons for our younger selves and why 151 00:08:18,880 --> 00:08:22,640 Speaker 2: we're all cheering for the quote unquote unlikable female character. 152 00:08:25,440 --> 00:08:30,040 Speaker 1: Your book dedications are written to versions of your past self, 153 00:08:30,440 --> 00:08:32,040 Speaker 1: and so what is the mission. 154 00:08:32,360 --> 00:08:35,920 Speaker 5: Yeah, definitely. So I was a teenager in the two thousands, 155 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:38,800 Speaker 5: and you know, not to say that any times are 156 00:08:38,800 --> 00:08:41,240 Speaker 5: more or less misogynistic, but it was definitely a different 157 00:08:41,240 --> 00:08:46,479 Speaker 5: flavor of misogyny at the time. Like the Ya protagonist 158 00:08:46,559 --> 00:08:49,480 Speaker 5: was the not like other girls girl, and you'd get 159 00:08:49,520 --> 00:08:53,920 Speaker 5: one quote unquote strong female character and then a full 160 00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:57,680 Speaker 5: cast of dynamic, diverse men. The goal, I think was 161 00:08:57,679 --> 00:09:00,679 Speaker 5: to be like the most desirable woman or the most 162 00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:04,240 Speaker 5: in the guys capable, the guy's girl, right, the cool girl. 163 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:06,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, she looks great in a bikini, but also drank 164 00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:07,640 Speaker 1: so much beer. 165 00:09:07,920 --> 00:09:09,600 Speaker 2: We didn't know how those two things were. 166 00:09:09,880 --> 00:09:12,520 Speaker 5: That character was very alive in that era, you know, 167 00:09:12,559 --> 00:09:14,360 Speaker 5: and we were all trying to be her and it 168 00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:17,280 Speaker 5: was such a waste of time. And I think, like 169 00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:19,800 Speaker 5: that's something that I didn't understand as a teenage girl. 170 00:09:19,880 --> 00:09:21,880 Speaker 5: But of course there are going to be so many 171 00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:24,000 Speaker 5: women you don't get along with. And that's actually something 172 00:09:24,040 --> 00:09:26,560 Speaker 5: I like to write into my books, is like, sometimes 173 00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:28,600 Speaker 5: it's just like you and this girl are not going 174 00:09:28,640 --> 00:09:32,520 Speaker 5: to get along, and that's fine because the spectrum of 175 00:09:32,520 --> 00:09:34,160 Speaker 5: what it is to be a woman and to grow 176 00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:36,440 Speaker 5: into womanhood is very different for everyone, and it should 177 00:09:36,480 --> 00:09:39,480 Speaker 5: appear different on the page. But anyway, so just the 178 00:09:39,520 --> 00:09:42,400 Speaker 5: idea of if I could tell my past self, power 179 00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:47,480 Speaker 5: is not desirability. Power is not being appealing, especially to men. 180 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:51,560 Speaker 5: Power is not making yourself palatable. Power is you know, 181 00:09:51,760 --> 00:09:54,000 Speaker 5: what you gain from the collective and the relationships you 182 00:09:54,040 --> 00:09:55,800 Speaker 5: have with other people, and that you are stronger with 183 00:09:55,840 --> 00:09:59,240 Speaker 5: these other women. This real fallacy of scarcity that I 184 00:09:59,240 --> 00:10:02,959 Speaker 5: think as women, we're taught that there are just limited 185 00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:05,040 Speaker 5: resources for us. There are only so many women who 186 00:10:05,080 --> 00:10:07,280 Speaker 5: can succeed, and there's only so many good men in 187 00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:09,000 Speaker 5: the world, and we're all competing for them, you know, 188 00:10:09,040 --> 00:10:10,760 Speaker 5: And that was just such a myth, and so I 189 00:10:10,880 --> 00:10:14,440 Speaker 5: try to like de escalate that myth and fiction just 190 00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:16,000 Speaker 5: to be like, you know what, you don't have to 191 00:10:16,040 --> 00:10:17,960 Speaker 5: believe that, you don't have to buy into that myth. 192 00:10:18,160 --> 00:10:20,600 Speaker 5: There are resources for everyone. You don't have to belong 193 00:10:20,800 --> 00:10:22,880 Speaker 5: in a certain place or have to be a certain way. 194 00:10:23,160 --> 00:10:26,960 Speaker 1: So I think having stories of fiction like that are 195 00:10:27,400 --> 00:10:30,440 Speaker 1: equally as powerful as nonfictional stories. 196 00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:33,480 Speaker 5: Absolutely, I think, and especially at this age, because the 197 00:10:33,559 --> 00:10:37,440 Speaker 5: teen years are about trying to fit in for safety, 198 00:10:37,960 --> 00:10:41,000 Speaker 5: like for social safety. You understand how to fit in 199 00:10:41,080 --> 00:10:43,160 Speaker 5: with other people. And so it's not like the best 200 00:10:43,160 --> 00:10:45,960 Speaker 5: time to learn about individuality, but I think it is 201 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:49,360 Speaker 5: a good time to be exposed to other perspectives and 202 00:10:49,440 --> 00:10:51,720 Speaker 5: to understand what it feels like to empathize with other 203 00:10:51,720 --> 00:10:55,120 Speaker 5: people who have different views, and like that's something specifically 204 00:10:55,120 --> 00:10:57,360 Speaker 5: for the teen years that empathy is so important. 205 00:10:57,800 --> 00:11:03,160 Speaker 2: Alexin, you are exposing so many people to your own 206 00:11:03,320 --> 00:11:05,800 Speaker 2: experience with mental health, and I think a lot of 207 00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:08,640 Speaker 2: people can feel seen through the way that you've talked 208 00:11:08,679 --> 00:11:12,800 Speaker 2: about your bipolar disorder diagnosis. You've also mentioned that that 209 00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:16,240 Speaker 2: actually played a role in your evolution as an author. 210 00:11:16,480 --> 00:11:20,240 Speaker 2: How did that diagnosis help you discover your best brain? 211 00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:24,760 Speaker 5: The process of dropping out of law school is a 212 00:11:24,800 --> 00:11:27,320 Speaker 5: really interesting one because it's related to my mental illness, 213 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:28,880 Speaker 5: but not in the way that it sounds. It's not 214 00:11:28,920 --> 00:11:30,680 Speaker 5: like I was so ill i had to leave. It's 215 00:11:30,720 --> 00:11:34,240 Speaker 5: more like, once I took steps toward being healthy, I 216 00:11:34,360 --> 00:11:36,960 Speaker 5: realized that a lot of the coping mechanisms I had 217 00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:39,560 Speaker 5: for getting myself through a life that I didn't love like, 218 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:42,120 Speaker 5: I started to see them as just coping mechanisms, and 219 00:11:42,160 --> 00:11:44,600 Speaker 5: I think I started to really look at my life 220 00:11:44,600 --> 00:11:47,280 Speaker 5: and realize that I could be happier, that I almost 221 00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:49,640 Speaker 5: had a responsibility to be happier. At that point, I 222 00:11:49,679 --> 00:11:51,760 Speaker 5: had fallen in love and I was with the man 223 00:11:51,760 --> 00:11:54,920 Speaker 5: that I was going to marry and realized that, you know, 224 00:11:55,760 --> 00:11:59,080 Speaker 5: his happiness was also it was important to me, and 225 00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:01,160 Speaker 5: it was it was built into my happiness, and it 226 00:12:01,200 --> 00:12:03,400 Speaker 5: was like I could make choices that could lead me 227 00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:07,040 Speaker 5: down a different path than this, Like suddenly I can 228 00:12:07,120 --> 00:12:09,520 Speaker 5: see how many paths there are and the path that 229 00:12:09,559 --> 00:12:12,240 Speaker 5: I'm on is not a good one. Going down this 230 00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:13,960 Speaker 5: path is going to get uglier for me. 231 00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:16,800 Speaker 2: Did you have a diagnosis as a kid? 232 00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:21,240 Speaker 5: No, Bipolar starts to show around like eighteen or something, 233 00:12:21,240 --> 00:12:23,400 Speaker 5: And certainly in my late teens, I knew that something 234 00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:27,280 Speaker 5: was wrong, and I think I was self medicating in 235 00:12:27,679 --> 00:12:30,520 Speaker 5: different ways and just in a way that I knew 236 00:12:30,559 --> 00:12:33,040 Speaker 5: wasn't healthy, but it wasn't important for me to be healthy. 237 00:12:33,520 --> 00:12:36,079 Speaker 5: I make a lot of jokes about how Vi in 238 00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:40,320 Speaker 5: Twelfth Night is an unlikable female character because I saw 239 00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:43,160 Speaker 5: myself as an unlikable female character. That I had the 240 00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:46,280 Speaker 5: sense that other people didn't understand me, or that my 241 00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:49,040 Speaker 5: desire to be authentic, was not coming across in a 242 00:12:49,040 --> 00:12:52,040 Speaker 5: way that other people understood or sympathized with. And so 243 00:12:52,240 --> 00:12:54,680 Speaker 5: I totally put on this whole like, fine, make me 244 00:12:54,720 --> 00:12:56,640 Speaker 5: your villain. You think I'm a bit, I'll be a bit. 245 00:12:57,040 --> 00:12:59,960 Speaker 5: You took on the persona yeah, and just was quite isolated, 246 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:01,960 Speaker 5: I think, And which is not to say that I 247 00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:04,680 Speaker 5: didn't have relationships. I just didn't take them as seriously 248 00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:07,400 Speaker 5: as I could. I never really thought I deserved them. 249 00:13:08,160 --> 00:13:11,199 Speaker 2: It's interesting that you brought up this idea that your 250 00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:14,920 Speaker 2: main character, Viola could be deemed as unlikable because in 251 00:13:14,960 --> 00:13:18,320 Speaker 2: the acknowledgments, you say, if you're the kind of person 252 00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:20,360 Speaker 2: who feels angry all the time but doesn't feel like 253 00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:23,360 Speaker 2: you're allowed to be, I see you. Why was it 254 00:13:23,360 --> 00:13:26,400 Speaker 2: important for you to write that, to vocalize that. 255 00:13:27,320 --> 00:13:31,040 Speaker 5: This book is definitely about anger and about who's allowed 256 00:13:31,080 --> 00:13:34,280 Speaker 5: to feel it. How many women, how many young girls 257 00:13:34,920 --> 00:13:38,719 Speaker 5: become aware that their anger is not acceptable, that there 258 00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:41,800 Speaker 5: is no way to remain dignified in anger, and they're 259 00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:44,280 Speaker 5: not allowed to be undignified because the moment you do, 260 00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:47,480 Speaker 5: you lose your credibility. And so to have that for 261 00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:50,000 Speaker 5: Vie to be a woman who's told to smile, who 262 00:13:50,040 --> 00:13:53,679 Speaker 5: needs to be tamed, things that I had heard growing up. 263 00:13:53,720 --> 00:13:56,400 Speaker 5: And then also to have Jack, who's based on my 264 00:13:56,880 --> 00:14:00,800 Speaker 5: best friend who I also met in high school, who's 265 00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:03,520 Speaker 5: he's half black, and so he has the cariacture of 266 00:14:03,559 --> 00:14:06,920 Speaker 5: the angry black man that he also like, can't become angry, 267 00:14:06,960 --> 00:14:10,960 Speaker 5: he cannot engage his anger in a safe way, and 268 00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:13,200 Speaker 5: for that to be so hard because he's seventeen years 269 00:14:13,240 --> 00:14:17,520 Speaker 5: old and the book is based on it's a fictionalized 270 00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:20,160 Speaker 5: version of where I grew up, which was a predominantly 271 00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:23,520 Speaker 5: white community at the time. It's not really anymore. And 272 00:14:23,560 --> 00:14:27,040 Speaker 5: that feeling of otherness that these two characters share, and 273 00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:30,560 Speaker 5: little microaggressions, these little things that like I can't put 274 00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:33,400 Speaker 5: them into words because they're not big enough on their own, 275 00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:36,280 Speaker 5: And so this feeling of I'm angry all the time, 276 00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:39,080 Speaker 5: but not about anything that I can say, because once 277 00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:42,280 Speaker 5: you start to like pick apart your feelings and rationalize them, 278 00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:44,320 Speaker 5: it's easy for people to argue with them. I think 279 00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:46,680 Speaker 5: this is the problem with a lot of politics and 280 00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:49,680 Speaker 5: a lot of just the sociopolitical context. It's like, if 281 00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:52,320 Speaker 5: you really get into the details, someone will find a 282 00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:55,640 Speaker 5: way to delegitimize what you're saying, and so for them 283 00:14:55,640 --> 00:14:57,080 Speaker 5: to just be like, well, this is my life and 284 00:14:57,080 --> 00:14:58,720 Speaker 5: this is how I've come to deal with it. One 285 00:14:58,760 --> 00:15:01,560 Speaker 5: is like she makes herself a villain and he is 286 00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:05,040 Speaker 5: a total people pleaser, and you know, they see each 287 00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:09,120 Speaker 5: other and almost admire what the other person can do 288 00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:10,200 Speaker 5: that they feel they can't. 289 00:15:12,040 --> 00:15:14,120 Speaker 1: We'll be right back after another quick break. 290 00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:23,760 Speaker 2: Our final clip comes from our conversation with Ali Condy, 291 00:15:24,080 --> 00:15:25,880 Speaker 2: and this one is a real tear jerker. 292 00:15:25,960 --> 00:15:26,160 Speaker 1: Yell. 293 00:15:26,440 --> 00:15:27,080 Speaker 2: It really is. 294 00:15:27,200 --> 00:15:29,720 Speaker 1: Ali's novel, The Unwedding, was the Reese's Book Club pick 295 00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:33,440 Speaker 1: for June, and the storyline was at least partly inspired 296 00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:35,040 Speaker 1: by events from Ali's own life. 297 00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:38,080 Speaker 2: Just like the main character. At the beginning of The Unwetding, 298 00:15:38,440 --> 00:15:42,080 Speaker 2: Ali discovered her husband was cheating, and instead of canceling 299 00:15:42,080 --> 00:15:45,160 Speaker 2: their romantic anniversary trip, she went on the trip all 300 00:15:45,280 --> 00:15:49,400 Speaker 2: by herself. Luckily for us, Ali wrote this experience into 301 00:15:49,440 --> 00:15:53,080 Speaker 2: the backdrop of the story for one riveting murder mystery 302 00:15:53,360 --> 00:15:54,960 Speaker 2: and her first adult novel. 303 00:15:55,360 --> 00:15:57,800 Speaker 1: We'll start by hearing Ali read an excerpt from the book, 304 00:15:57,800 --> 00:16:02,320 Speaker 1: and then we'll end with a true gem of parenting wisdom. 305 00:16:03,040 --> 00:16:05,600 Speaker 2: We have selected a passage that we would love for 306 00:16:05,680 --> 00:16:07,880 Speaker 2: you to read for us. Can you go ahead and 307 00:16:07,960 --> 00:16:08,560 Speaker 2: set it up? 308 00:16:09,200 --> 00:16:11,040 Speaker 4: Yeah, I'd love to do that. And I love this 309 00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:14,720 Speaker 4: passage that you suggested that I read. It's not when 310 00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:16,920 Speaker 4: I've been able to read a lot because I can't 311 00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:19,000 Speaker 4: get through it without crying. So I'll see how this goes. 312 00:16:19,480 --> 00:16:21,560 Speaker 4: But it is one of the few passages in the 313 00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:25,320 Speaker 4: book that is taken directly from real life. So Ethan 314 00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:27,400 Speaker 4: is the child and the main character is the mom. 315 00:16:29,280 --> 00:16:32,239 Speaker 4: After they'd returned from the trip, Ethan asked her repeatedly 316 00:16:32,280 --> 00:16:34,080 Speaker 4: to take him to a lake up in the mountains 317 00:16:34,080 --> 00:16:37,880 Speaker 4: that they sometimes visited. It was a beautiful spot, blue water, 318 00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:41,360 Speaker 4: perfect green pines, a sandier beach than you usually found 319 00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:44,480 Speaker 4: in Colorado, a long wooden dock stretching out into the 320 00:16:44,520 --> 00:16:47,080 Speaker 4: water from which you could launch kayaks or paddle boards. 321 00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:50,280 Speaker 4: The days she'd finally gotten around to taking Ethan had 322 00:16:50,280 --> 00:16:53,600 Speaker 4: been months after their trip to California later in the year, 323 00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:56,560 Speaker 4: when the air and water were cool bordering on cold. 324 00:16:57,080 --> 00:17:00,640 Speaker 4: There hadn't been many people at the lake. Had climbed 325 00:17:00,640 --> 00:17:03,160 Speaker 4: out of the car with a sense of purpose. Wait 326 00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:05,439 Speaker 4: for me, buddy, She said, trying to make sure she 327 00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:08,160 Speaker 4: had her keys and phone, but he was off, stalking 328 00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:11,199 Speaker 4: intently out onto the dock, since he had a pensiont 329 00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:14,399 Speaker 4: for jumping into bodies of water. Fully clothed, she hurried 330 00:17:14,440 --> 00:17:16,760 Speaker 4: after him, worried he'd gotten it into his mind to 331 00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:19,960 Speaker 4: go for a swim, But Than stopped at the end 332 00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:22,120 Speaker 4: of the dock and turned to look at her. It 333 00:17:22,160 --> 00:17:24,200 Speaker 4: was then that she saw he was holding his wand 334 00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:26,679 Speaker 4: she hadn't noticed that he'd brought it in the car. 335 00:17:27,040 --> 00:17:28,879 Speaker 4: His blue eyes and the blue T shirt he was 336 00:17:28,920 --> 00:17:31,240 Speaker 4: wearing in the blue water behind him all brightened and 337 00:17:31,320 --> 00:17:35,359 Speaker 4: deepened one another, and she thought, this is impossibly beautiful. 338 00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:41,360 Speaker 4: He is impossibly beautiful, mom Ethan said urgency in his tone. Mom. 339 00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:45,000 Speaker 4: To her surprise, he handed her the precious wand mom. 340 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:46,080 Speaker 2: Turn me into a fish. 341 00:17:47,080 --> 00:17:50,800 Speaker 4: Oh Ethan, she said, her heart breaking, I can't. I'm 342 00:17:50,840 --> 00:17:55,120 Speaker 4: so sorry. No, Mom, he said, you can. It built 343 00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:58,080 Speaker 4: and built, the urgency in his voice, then the distress, 344 00:17:58,200 --> 00:18:00,720 Speaker 4: the break in her heart, until she they would both 345 00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:03,800 Speaker 4: shatter in order outwards. She didn't know, but neither of 346 00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:06,600 Speaker 4: them could bear this much pain, this much want, this 347 00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:11,200 Speaker 4: much failure. Mom eth had kept saying tears in his eyes, Mom, 348 00:18:11,320 --> 00:18:16,120 Speaker 4: please please turn me into a fish. When he finally 349 00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:18,920 Speaker 4: realized that she couldn't. Oh, how she hoped. He didn't 350 00:18:18,920 --> 00:18:21,520 Speaker 4: think it was that she wouldn't, they got back into 351 00:18:21,520 --> 00:18:24,639 Speaker 4: the car and drove home. They wound down the forest 352 00:18:24,720 --> 00:18:28,560 Speaker 4: roads in silence, both of their faces tear stained. She 353 00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:31,639 Speaker 4: hadn't seen the wand since he had never asked to 354 00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:34,760 Speaker 4: go to the lake again, she had thought that day 355 00:18:34,840 --> 00:18:37,320 Speaker 4: that it was the worst she could possibly fail someone. 356 00:18:38,080 --> 00:18:39,800 Speaker 4: She'd been so absolutely wrong. 357 00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:41,800 Speaker 2: Thank you for that. 358 00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:46,040 Speaker 1: Ali. Before you read, you said that you usually cry 359 00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:49,600 Speaker 1: when you read that passage. What special meaning does it 360 00:18:49,680 --> 00:18:51,679 Speaker 1: hold for you? Well? 361 00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:54,200 Speaker 4: I tried not to read it too much because it 362 00:18:54,680 --> 00:18:58,200 Speaker 4: was a real experience that happened, and I'm not it's 363 00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:03,040 Speaker 4: hard to revisit. Frankly, my son has is neuro divergent 364 00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:07,359 Speaker 4: and we had that experience post divorce, and like I 365 00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:09,919 Speaker 4: mentioned earlier, it's one of the few real experiences I 366 00:19:09,920 --> 00:19:12,600 Speaker 4: put in the book, and that was just such a 367 00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:16,320 Speaker 4: feeling that day of He desperately wanted this thing, and 368 00:19:16,359 --> 00:19:19,159 Speaker 4: he truly thought I could grant it to him. He 369 00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:21,359 Speaker 4: thought he had all the elements there, he'd brought the 370 00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:24,440 Speaker 4: wand we'd gotten too the place, and then he was 371 00:19:24,520 --> 00:19:28,360 Speaker 4: asking me to transform him into something else, take him 372 00:19:28,359 --> 00:19:31,120 Speaker 4: away from this, and there was I could not do it, 373 00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:33,199 Speaker 4: you know, there was no way for me to do that. 374 00:19:34,119 --> 00:19:36,879 Speaker 4: And as a parent, I mean, that's one of the 375 00:19:36,920 --> 00:19:39,920 Speaker 4: hardest things is when you disappoint your child or when 376 00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:43,439 Speaker 4: they desperately deeply want something and you cannot give it 377 00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:45,359 Speaker 4: to them, even though you would love to be able 378 00:19:45,359 --> 00:19:48,000 Speaker 4: to do that. And so that's tricky for me to 379 00:19:48,040 --> 00:19:52,080 Speaker 4: revisit because that was a hard day and that he 380 00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:54,119 Speaker 4: really wanted that for me and I didn't give it 381 00:19:54,160 --> 00:19:55,959 Speaker 4: to him, and it became a little bit of a 382 00:19:57,119 --> 00:19:59,160 Speaker 4: you know, a stand in for all of the things 383 00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:02,880 Speaker 4: he wanted, like tact family and different things that I 384 00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:07,120 Speaker 4: also really wanted that I also was unable to give him. 385 00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:10,200 Speaker 4: And so that that feeling is still kind of with me. Frankly, 386 00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:12,399 Speaker 4: there's still some things that I wish I could provide 387 00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:14,320 Speaker 4: that I can and as a parent, that's really tough. 388 00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:18,160 Speaker 2: It's so hard what do you say to your kids 389 00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:21,960 Speaker 2: in those moments. I'm asking for a friend, because it 390 00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:25,199 Speaker 2: is really hard whenever your kids want something that you 391 00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:25,800 Speaker 2: can't deliver. 392 00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:30,760 Speaker 4: Yeah, I kind of have to. I have to acknowledge 393 00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:35,240 Speaker 4: that it's a valid want. You're not wrong to want this. 394 00:20:35,240 --> 00:20:39,199 Speaker 4: This makes sense that you want this to kind of 395 00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:41,159 Speaker 4: teach them to be able to do that for themselves. 396 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:43,760 Speaker 4: Like it's okay to want things. And often the things 397 00:20:43,760 --> 00:20:46,480 Speaker 4: that you want are really good, and you still can't 398 00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:49,159 Speaker 4: have them because someone else is making a different choice 399 00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:53,480 Speaker 4: or the circumstances don't allow it. And then sometimes you 400 00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:56,600 Speaker 4: can acknowledge, I want that too, but you don't want 401 00:20:56,640 --> 00:20:59,080 Speaker 4: to put yourself in there too much. You know it's 402 00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:02,199 Speaker 4: about their want, not about yours. And then I say 403 00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:04,959 Speaker 4: I can't fix it, but I can sit here with 404 00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:07,639 Speaker 4: you in the wanting. We can be here together, and 405 00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:11,000 Speaker 4: then what's something else that we can control that we 406 00:21:11,040 --> 00:21:14,040 Speaker 4: can maybe do. Sometimes that's the next step, and sometimes 407 00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:16,920 Speaker 4: the next step is not that. Sometimes the next step 408 00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:20,399 Speaker 4: is just Okay, we're still sad. Nothing's going to fix this, 409 00:21:21,040 --> 00:21:22,879 Speaker 4: and we'll just be here in the sadness for a 410 00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:25,520 Speaker 4: few minutes and not try to move past it until 411 00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:26,000 Speaker 4: we're ready. 412 00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:29,560 Speaker 2: Ali, have you ever thought about being a parenting coach? 413 00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:30,320 Speaker 4: No? 414 00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:35,160 Speaker 2: That was amazing. I learned so much just in that 415 00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:37,040 Speaker 2: fifteen second SoundBite. 416 00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:41,720 Speaker 4: Oh gosh, that's so kind of you, Simone. I'm muddling 417 00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:43,920 Speaker 4: my way through like everyone else, but I do really 418 00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:44,640 Speaker 4: care about. 419 00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:47,880 Speaker 2: It, so I hope that counts for something. Yeah, totally. 420 00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:52,199 Speaker 2: I think the sitting with is the hardest thing for 421 00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:54,400 Speaker 2: adults and children to do, but it's the best thing 422 00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:56,320 Speaker 2: that you can do oftentimes. 423 00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:01,240 Speaker 1: The Cliffs, Twelfth Night, and The Unwdding are all available now. 424 00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:04,200 Speaker 1: We'll link to the electronic versions in our show notes. 425 00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:11,760 Speaker 2: Join the conversation using hashtag the bright Side and connect 426 00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:15,000 Speaker 2: with us on social media at Hello Sunshine on Instagram 427 00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:18,240 Speaker 2: and at the bright Side Pod on TikTok oh, and 428 00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:20,880 Speaker 2: feel free to tag us at Simone Voice and at 429 00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:21,960 Speaker 2: Danielle Robe. 430 00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:25,480 Speaker 1: Listen and follow the bright Side on the iHeartRadio app, 431 00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:28,200 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. 432 00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:30,919 Speaker 2: We'll see you Monday, y'all. Keep looking on the bright side.