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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class from how

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Speaker 1: Stuff Works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast.

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Speaker 1: I'm Katie Lambert and I'm Sarah Dowdy. And before we

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Speaker 1: start today's episode, we'd like to say that there is

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Speaker 1: a lot of grisly content in this particular podcast and

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Speaker 1: it's not appropriate for kids. This is a rated R podcast,

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Speaker 1: and you should not be fooled by our fairytale title,

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Speaker 1: which is, of course, who was the real blue Beard?

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Speaker 1: And there are many versions of the blue Beard story,

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Speaker 1: but the one most of us know comes from Charles Perel,

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Speaker 1: who was the French author of many a fairy to

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Speaker 1: beat the best right type of things. You know. Um,

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Speaker 1: But the story of blue Beard isn't a nice fairy tale,

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Speaker 1: it's a grim one. In the story, a blue bearded

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Speaker 1: man has had many wives, but they all disappear and

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Speaker 1: no one knows what's become of them. But yet another

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Speaker 1: woman is married to him against her will, and after

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Speaker 1: their marriage, blue Beard leaves her in charge of the

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Speaker 1: house with an admonition to stay out of this one

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Speaker 1: particular room. But she, of course is human and can't resist,

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Speaker 1: and when she opens the door, all she sees is

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Speaker 1: blood and dead bodies on hooks, which are the wives

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Speaker 1: before her. And in Perolt's tale, of course, the wife

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Speaker 1: is rescued at the last moment, but in the story

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Speaker 1: we're going to tell that is possibly the inspiration for

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Speaker 1: the tale, the rescues were not to be had. So

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Speaker 1: before we get to all the gor nous, let's talk

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Speaker 1: a little bit about who we're dealing with. Gill Day

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Speaker 1: was born in fourteen oh four or thereabouts. There are

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Speaker 1: some discrepancies um as to the year, and he was

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Speaker 1: the son of Gui de Laval and Marie de Carolan,

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Speaker 1: and his father died when he was young. He and

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Speaker 1: his brother Renee were raised by their grandfather, and he

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Speaker 1: was married young as well, at sixteen, to Katwine de

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Speaker 1: tur who was also very rich. And I can't emphasize

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Speaker 1: enough just how rich Deray was. He was probably the

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Speaker 1: richest nobleman in Europe. But even then there were some

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Speaker 1: rumors about him that weren't so nice. Part of this

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Speaker 1: legend was that he had been affianced a few times

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Speaker 1: before Katraine, but they all died. Really, the reality is

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Speaker 1: probably just that the betrothals were broken off. And he's

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Speaker 1: impressive as a young man too, though, in addition to

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Speaker 1: being extremely wealthy, he distinguished himself fighting with Jean Dark

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Speaker 1: in the Hundred Years War Joan of Arc, of course

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Speaker 1: and um. He was there for the Siege of Orleans

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Speaker 1: and was recognized for being extremely brave. Right. He was

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Speaker 1: made Marshal of France at age by Charles the Seventh

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Speaker 1: because of everything he'd done in the war. But then

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Speaker 1: there comes a switch in his life. Gil tired of

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Speaker 1: military life, and his grandfather, who may have been a

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Speaker 1: check on his actions, died when he was in his

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Speaker 1: young thirties. So he began spending. So remember how gigantic

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Speaker 1: this fortune is. He spends pretty much all of it.

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Speaker 1: Much of it was on theatrical productions. He loved putting

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Speaker 1: on these very lavish plays for free. He hired hundreds

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Speaker 1: of extras, and I would have hundreds of costumes constructed

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Speaker 1: and then just thrown away and he would begin again. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And he spends a lot of his money on bodyguards

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Speaker 1: and courtiers and entertaining as well, things that might be

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Speaker 1: more expected than his own personal theatrical productions. And he

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Speaker 1: also built a very fancy chapel, the Chapel of the

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Speaker 1: Holy Innocence, and in case you don't remember um biblically,

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Speaker 1: the Holy Innocence are all the innocent little boys that

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Speaker 1: Herod had killed to you know, avoid Jesus coming along

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Speaker 1: and deserving his power. This will come into play a

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Speaker 1: little later, remember the Holy Innocence. He eventually spend so

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Speaker 1: much money on all these plays and these building projects

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Speaker 1: that his family goes to the King see King and intervention,

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Speaker 1: and the King agrees to make life very difficult for

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Speaker 1: him in Orleans. So he left and he went to

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Speaker 1: Brittany and around this same time, being so wealthy but

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Speaker 1: also falling into this pit of money despair, he fell

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Speaker 1: prey to many con men, and when he started to

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Speaker 1: go broke, he turned to a rather bizarre way of

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Speaker 1: making money, at least to my mind, alchemy. So he

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Speaker 1: started spending he will literally turn other things into gold.

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Speaker 1: He started dealing with occultists and necromancers, and you know,

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Speaker 1: thought maybe he could sell a soul to Satan for wealth,

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Speaker 1: depending on you know how that went. So more money,

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Speaker 1: more problems, Sara and I said earlier, But it turns

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Speaker 1: out that this is not all he was doing at

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Speaker 1: the time, and he had many other unsavory activities going on.

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Speaker 1: And Um, his first murder was right after his grandfather died.

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Speaker 1: And again this is a little hard to listen to,

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Speaker 1: probably it was hard for us to research. But his

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Speaker 1: victims were usually young boys. They were tortured, raped, and killed.

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Speaker 1: He'd often hang them from hooks, according to testimony, Um,

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Speaker 1: but take them down to comfort them when they cried,

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Speaker 1: saying that he was only playing with them, before he

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Speaker 1: put them back and start the torturing again. Sometimes he

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Speaker 1: would rape them as they were dying. Um. He also

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Speaker 1: liked to cut them open and look at their insides

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Speaker 1: and laughed while they died. So this is pretty much

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Speaker 1: the most demonic portrait of a man you can imagine.

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Speaker 1: He'd also go to sleep afterwards, so when it was

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Speaker 1: all done, he'd have somebody else clean it up. So

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Speaker 1: some of the boys were kidnapped, some were tricked into coming,

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Speaker 1: you know, by saying maybe they'd get an apprenticeship at

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Speaker 1: the castle. Some showed up unawares of what was going

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Speaker 1: on and were tricked into it. And no one knows

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Speaker 1: exactly how many children he killed. There's a huge discrepancy

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Speaker 1: as far as numbers. Estimates ranged from the cousins to

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Speaker 1: more than six thousand so you don't even know where

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Speaker 1: he stands in that series of you know, prolific serial

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Speaker 1: killers that you think of. But of course he wasn't alone.

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Speaker 1: You can't you can't do killings like this, and especially

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Speaker 1: if it was more on the scale of six thousand,

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Speaker 1: without accomplices. And one of them was Gille de Sille,

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Speaker 1: who um brought boys to one of the castles and

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Speaker 1: helped clean up after after the murders had taken place,

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Speaker 1: and helped lie for him. You know, obviously you're gonna

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Speaker 1: have all these concerned parents who are wondering where their

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Speaker 1: children have gone, and he would tell them that their

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Speaker 1: sons had been sent to the king to train his pages.

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Speaker 1: You know, had all these great opportunities, and that's why

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Speaker 1: they disappeared. So suddenly, another one of his accomplices was

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Speaker 1: a T. N. Corio, who was known as Plot, and

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Speaker 1: with his testimony later we learned a little bit more

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Speaker 1: about what happened in that castle. Some of the most

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Speaker 1: damning testimony against him came from this guy, and he

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Speaker 1: talked about killing the boys because sometimes gilder I didn't

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Speaker 1: like to do it on his own. He'd rather have

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Speaker 1: someone else do it. And he liked to play with

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Speaker 1: the dead bodies, so his accomplices would kill them by

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Speaker 1: decapitation or dismemberment or cutting their throats, breaking your neck.

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Speaker 1: And he also said they usually were only allowed to

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Speaker 1: stay alive for one night. And another accomplice was Puin Marta,

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Speaker 1: who was also known as Lamfrey or the Terror. And

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Speaker 1: she sounds straight out of a fairy tale, some very

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Speaker 1: scary evil character, and she was the procure of many

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Speaker 1: of the children. She would wander around in a long

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Speaker 1: cloak looking for them. She at least suves me the shivers. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and that's according to some accounts. Some of this is

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Speaker 1: based on little historical evidence, and a lot of it

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Speaker 1: is based on tales of the time, but that, of

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Speaker 1: course is part of the allure of his story. But

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Speaker 1: you must be wondering, like Sarah and I did, how

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Speaker 1: on earth if you've done all of these terrible things,

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Speaker 1: especially if the body count is up to about six thousand.

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Speaker 1: He wasn't found out, And it turns out that he

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Speaker 1: sort of was. People knew what was going on, especially

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Speaker 1: the peasants around there. Their kids were disappearing, and his

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Speaker 1: castle at mush Cool got the reputation of being this

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Speaker 1: evil place where people eight children, like the surrounding villages,

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Speaker 1: that's what they said. If someone else came from mush Cool,

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Speaker 1: well that's the place that the reputation that pursueded them. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and some of his family and friends must have known

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Speaker 1: what was going on to some people have argued at

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Speaker 1: least at one point he sent some of his minions

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Speaker 1: to clean up his castles when he knows that family

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Speaker 1: was coming over. Um, but they couldn't get rid of

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Speaker 1: all the skeletons and body parts that littered the castle,

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Speaker 1: and the towers of the castles were filled with blood

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Speaker 1: and bodies that were later burned and tossed into the

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Speaker 1: moat and um, just as straight out of the blue

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Speaker 1: Beard fair Tail. Yeah, he was most caught several times.

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Speaker 1: According to some accounts, he was reckless about what he

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Speaker 1: was doing. He wasn't even trying very hard to hide

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Speaker 1: it because he was very, very rich and very powerful

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Speaker 1: and probably felt were afraid of it. Fairly invincible, Oh,

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Speaker 1: I'm sure. So he wasn't arrested until he abducted a

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Speaker 1: priest from a church, which is so ridiculous. You know,

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Speaker 1: people thought he was killing and raping children, but you

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Speaker 1: know once he took that priest out of that trust line,

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Speaker 1: the line had been crossed. So the bishop started an investigation,

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Speaker 1: found out all of these rumors, and then passed it

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Speaker 1: on to more secular sources of power who did their

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Speaker 1: own investigation. So he's ultimately charged with murder, sodomy, and heresy,

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Speaker 1: and of course kidnapping the priest from a church. His

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Speaker 1: trial was in fourteen forty, and at first he wouldn't

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Speaker 1: make a plea, and he denied the charges and even

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Speaker 1: said this court didn't have jurisdiction over him. But then

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Speaker 1: here's a twist. The church excommunicated him, and he was

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Speaker 1: terrified that he would go to hell, so he admitted

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Speaker 1: to some of his crimes and begged to be readmitted

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Speaker 1: to the church. And that's the crazy thing about Jill Deray,

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Speaker 1: all the things I was reading, he was tormented by

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Speaker 1: the idea of what would happen to his eternal soul,

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Speaker 1: and he was very religious. He built that Chapel of

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Speaker 1: the Holy Innocence, hoping it would expiate some of his sins.

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Speaker 1: And someone who fights alongside Joan of arc to imagine

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Speaker 1: you wouldn't see miracles in the fervor of your religion

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Speaker 1: if you are fighting with her, So you have to

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Speaker 1: somehow reconcile this idea of him as a giggling child

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Speaker 1: rapist who killed and killed again with the idea of

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Speaker 1: someone who wasn't even a sociopath, someone who had remorse

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Speaker 1: for everything he'd done and yet wouldn't stop. And that's

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Speaker 1: the scary part, because you can't say that he was

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Speaker 1: just mentally ill. He knew what he was doing, he

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Speaker 1: was sorry for what he was doing, and he kept

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Speaker 1: don't stop doing it. He's also accused of summoning demons

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Speaker 1: and dabbling in the occult and all of this with

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Speaker 1: a guy named Francesco Prelate and using children's innards as

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Speaker 1: sacrifices to the call up the devil. But um, going

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Speaker 1: back to that religious fervor, these are charges that he

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Speaker 1: would not admit to initially. None of those satanic stuff,

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Speaker 1: none of the summoning up of the demons. Those were

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Speaker 1: things he would not say that he did until he

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Speaker 1: was threatened with torture, and then he admitted everything. Or

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Speaker 1: someone who has tortured knows well just what that's like.

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Speaker 1: So all of the gory gory details came out during

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Speaker 1: the trial. For example, some of his associates that he

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Speaker 1: bathed in blood, which reminded us of Elizabeth Bathory, which

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Speaker 1: I think Canadas and joshed in a podcast the article

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Speaker 1: on it. So at the end of all this and

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Speaker 1: after his confessions, he's sentenced to be hanged and burned,

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Speaker 1: which interestingly kind of a luckier fate than Joan of Art.

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Speaker 1: Not luckier, but his body has taken out of the

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Speaker 1: flames and buried. And before he died, he sermonized to

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Speaker 1: the crowd and proclaimed himself a devout and good man.

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Speaker 1: So he was brought back into the church's fold at

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Speaker 1: the very end because of this um confession and repenting.

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Speaker 1: But that was the end of blue Beard, and again

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Speaker 1: the question how can a man be a hero of

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Speaker 1: war with Saint Joan no less and also a ruthless

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Speaker 1: child murderer. Some historians have argued that Jill Dere didn't

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Speaker 1: do it, that he was framed for what had happened,

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Speaker 1: that it was someone else committing the murders, and because

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Speaker 1: there were other people who had an interest in him

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Speaker 1: being gone for financial reasons, he was set up. And

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Speaker 1: others also say that the trial was a farce, and

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Speaker 1: I mean how much can you trust a confession made

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Speaker 1: under threat of torture? It was a coerced confession, So

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Speaker 1: is that even something that you can say is real

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Speaker 1: and honest? And and presumably his collabor raiders are under

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Speaker 1: similar pressure. Oh yes, two of them were killed as well,

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Speaker 1: and they did not get to be taken out of

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Speaker 1: the flames. They were burned to ash. But to sort

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Speaker 1: of bring this story full circle, we're gonna end up

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Speaker 1: how we began with the story of blue Beard and

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Speaker 1: this contradiction we were talking about earlier. Somebody who is

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Speaker 1: clearly not just a sociopath who has no sense of

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Speaker 1: right and wrong. I mean, he's somebody who repents what

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Speaker 1: he's doing. He just can't stop doing it is won't

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Speaker 1: or won't stop is hard for people to to make

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Speaker 1: sense of and to handle. And so consequently, uh, since then,

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Speaker 1: there have been all these myths that have sprung up

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Speaker 1: around him in comparisons to demonic creatures like vampires or

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Speaker 1: were wolves, because I guess it's easier to believe that

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Speaker 1: someone was driven by something evil, something other than their

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Speaker 1: own wills and desires to commit such terrible crime, because

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Speaker 1: vampire has a motive, a werewolf has a motive, you know,

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Speaker 1: something we can't tellin it. And these ideas that if

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Speaker 1: the vampire, the werewolf, or blue Beard, we're all made

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Speaker 1: after the fact, you know, after his life. Then to

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Speaker 1: explain it right, there are people who say that he

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Speaker 1: was just trying to emulate another monster of history, Caligula,

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Speaker 1: who keeps popping up lately. So we think we're going

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Speaker 1: to have to do a podcast maybe after we rest

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Speaker 1: a little bit here and you might need a little

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Speaker 1: breaks or here took its toll. But to end on

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Speaker 1: a lighter note, if you're interested in supernatural creatures like

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Speaker 1: vampires and werewolves, we have some pretty fantastic articles on

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Speaker 1: them on our web page at www dot how stuff

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Speaker 1: works dot com. For more on this and thousands of

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Speaker 1: other topics because it how stuff works dot Com, and

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Speaker 1: be sure to check out the stuff you missed in

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Speaker 1: History Class blog on the how stuff Works dot Com

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Speaker 1: home page three