1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:02,800 Speaker 1: Politics is where some people are some of the time, 2 00:00:02,880 --> 00:00:05,320 Speaker 1: but culture is where everyone is all of the time. 3 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:13,960 Speaker 2: There are no girls on the Internet. As a production 4 00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:21,520 Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio and ungoss Creative, I'm Bridge Tad and this 5 00:00:21,600 --> 00:00:26,320 Speaker 2: is there are no girls on the Internet. Lately, I've 6 00:00:26,320 --> 00:00:28,280 Speaker 2: been spending a lot of time thinking about the power 7 00:00:28,280 --> 00:00:31,720 Speaker 2: of culture, how it shapes what we believe, how we vote, 8 00:00:32,040 --> 00:00:35,600 Speaker 2: and even who we grieve. So when I was a kid, 9 00:00:35,760 --> 00:00:38,239 Speaker 2: I didn't know anybody who had AIDS, or at least 10 00:00:38,280 --> 00:00:41,280 Speaker 2: I didn't think I did. But I do remember crying 11 00:00:41,320 --> 00:00:45,320 Speaker 2: when Pedro Zamora, the openly gay HIV positive cast member 12 00:00:45,360 --> 00:00:48,640 Speaker 2: from MTVS The Real World, died in nineteen ninety four. 13 00:00:49,680 --> 00:00:53,440 Speaker 2: History was powerful enough to move millions, including then President 14 00:00:53,560 --> 00:00:57,320 Speaker 2: Bill Clinton, who released a statement honoring Pedro for humanizing 15 00:00:57,320 --> 00:01:01,680 Speaker 2: the HIV crisis, especially for Latino communities, all from being 16 00:01:01,720 --> 00:01:05,760 Speaker 2: on our MTV reality show. Culture has always had the 17 00:01:05,760 --> 00:01:08,880 Speaker 2: power to move people, to shift narratives and shape politics, 18 00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:12,280 Speaker 2: which is why when one of Trump's first moves after 19 00:01:12,319 --> 00:01:15,800 Speaker 2: taking office, with the takeover the Kennedy Center right here 20 00:01:15,840 --> 00:01:19,360 Speaker 2: in my backyard in Washington, d C. I had questions, 21 00:01:20,120 --> 00:01:23,480 Speaker 2: why would Trump even care about a cultural institution best 22 00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:26,920 Speaker 2: known for music, theater, and the arts. If you ask 23 00:01:27,040 --> 00:01:30,600 Speaker 2: Carrie Twigg, co founder of Culture House Media, co host 24 00:01:30,600 --> 00:01:33,360 Speaker 2: of the podcast Pigan Jenkins, and a former member of 25 00:01:33,400 --> 00:01:36,880 Speaker 2: President Biden's Advisory Committee on the Arts, the answer is 26 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:41,920 Speaker 2: a lot. In her Rolling Stone piece Trump's cultural power 27 00:01:41,959 --> 00:01:46,000 Speaker 2: grab why his Kennedy Center takeover matters, Carrie breaks down 28 00:01:46,160 --> 00:01:49,560 Speaker 2: just how influential culture is not just in politics, but 29 00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:54,760 Speaker 2: in shaping hearts, minds, and futures. So I asked Carrie 30 00:01:54,840 --> 00:01:57,040 Speaker 2: what her first thoughts were when she heard that Trump 31 00:01:57,200 --> 00:01:58,880 Speaker 2: was moving in on the Kennedy Center. 32 00:02:00,520 --> 00:02:05,080 Speaker 1: I've felt like, oh, no, they have it together, way 33 00:02:05,080 --> 00:02:07,160 Speaker 1: more than I even thought that they did. I felt 34 00:02:07,160 --> 00:02:10,639 Speaker 1: like foreboding, which may be be more of the thing 35 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:14,520 Speaker 1: that I felt because in twenty sixteen he largely ignored culture. 36 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:18,680 Speaker 1: And culture is important for so many reasons that it 37 00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:24,080 Speaker 1: is how we determine what we consider normal, acceptable, and right. 38 00:02:24,639 --> 00:02:29,200 Speaker 1: It has also long been the sort of domain and 39 00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:33,080 Speaker 1: main tool in the toolbox, or the main weapon and 40 00:02:33,120 --> 00:02:36,880 Speaker 1: fighting back of the left. And so if Trump captures 41 00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:42,920 Speaker 1: American culture, you will It's a lot easier to convince 42 00:02:43,040 --> 00:02:45,760 Speaker 1: people if the culture is on your side. That what 43 00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:49,120 Speaker 1: is happening is normal and right and should be happening. Right. So, 44 00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:53,120 Speaker 1: if we have a culture in this country that healthcare 45 00:02:53,440 --> 00:02:56,560 Speaker 1: is an individual concern and not a government concern, whereas 46 00:02:56,639 --> 00:03:00,320 Speaker 1: so much of the rest of the industrialized world, Yeah, 47 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:06,880 Speaker 1: considers providing healthcare a government a core government function. And 48 00:03:06,960 --> 00:03:09,240 Speaker 1: so if he goes through with this budget and we 49 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:13,320 Speaker 1: see these massive cuts to Medicaid and Medicare and the 50 00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:18,119 Speaker 1: ACA is further stripped out of Americans' lives, but he 51 00:03:18,280 --> 00:03:22,160 Speaker 1: is able to propose and promote a culture that says 52 00:03:22,160 --> 00:03:25,800 Speaker 1: that that's both right and fair and just, and people 53 00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:29,040 Speaker 1: believe that, then they don't really know to push back. 54 00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:30,920 Speaker 1: They don't know that things could be better or different. 55 00:03:30,960 --> 00:03:34,000 Speaker 1: Like culture sets our boundaries in this really profound way. 56 00:03:35,160 --> 00:03:39,880 Speaker 1: And then also, so that's really problematic. And then also 57 00:03:40,160 --> 00:03:43,840 Speaker 1: like the left, whether that means democrats, so that means 58 00:03:44,080 --> 00:03:48,400 Speaker 1: something more revolutionary than democrats. Have always used culture, have 59 00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:52,040 Speaker 1: always used visual language, cultural language. I've always used protest 60 00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:56,960 Speaker 1: songs and protests, anthems, cinema, television, whether it's Mormon Lear 61 00:03:57,880 --> 00:04:01,800 Speaker 1: or Bob Dyllon. Use culture to to change America, to 62 00:04:01,840 --> 00:04:06,240 Speaker 1: push America, to make America more progressive, to more fair, 63 00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:09,960 Speaker 1: more equitable. The civil rights movement had a massive cultural 64 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:12,160 Speaker 1: component to it. The gay rights movement has had a 65 00:04:12,240 --> 00:04:16,680 Speaker 1: massive cultural component to it. It is how we understand 66 00:04:16,760 --> 00:04:21,440 Speaker 1: and start to socialize ourselves around change. And so him 67 00:04:21,760 --> 00:04:26,120 Speaker 1: using those levers and using those tools and tactics is 68 00:04:26,160 --> 00:04:27,560 Speaker 1: really quite concerning. 69 00:04:28,160 --> 00:04:31,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it was easy for me to be like, oh, 70 00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:34,240 Speaker 2: it's just the Kennedy Center, like with everything going on, 71 00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:37,960 Speaker 2: that's so trivial. But in your piece for the Rolling Stone, 72 00:04:38,040 --> 00:04:41,520 Speaker 2: Trump's cultural power grab, why his Kennedy Center takeover matters, 73 00:04:41,680 --> 00:04:45,480 Speaker 2: you actually argue that this is not disconnected from this larger, 74 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:48,200 Speaker 2: you know, power grab of democracy, and in fact those 75 00:04:48,200 --> 00:04:49,880 Speaker 2: things are like ultimately connected. 76 00:04:50,360 --> 00:04:55,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, culture provides really powerful headwinds. And you 77 00:04:55,839 --> 00:04:59,440 Speaker 1: look if you you know, if you look at fascist Italy, 78 00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:03,320 Speaker 1: if you look at fascist Germany, you know, like arts 79 00:05:03,320 --> 00:05:07,479 Speaker 1: and culture and propaganda is a cornerstone, is like the 80 00:05:07,880 --> 00:05:12,080 Speaker 1: go to, Like fascism relies on spectacle because it actually 81 00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:15,559 Speaker 1: is quite hollow from an ideological perspective, and it's actually 82 00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:20,640 Speaker 1: quite hollow from a policy perspective, right, It's not truly 83 00:05:20,720 --> 00:05:26,159 Speaker 1: about making government work better for individuals, It is about 84 00:05:26,440 --> 00:05:30,120 Speaker 1: changing an individual's belief so that they are convinced that 85 00:05:30,200 --> 00:05:33,440 Speaker 1: government should just be wanton and do whatever it wants 86 00:05:33,440 --> 00:05:36,640 Speaker 1: and really only serve a tiny, tiny, select portion of 87 00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:41,080 Speaker 1: a population. And they are able to accomplish that through spectacle. 88 00:05:41,160 --> 00:05:45,600 Speaker 1: And so the Kennedy Center, the Nations are the iconic 89 00:05:45,920 --> 00:05:49,440 Speaker 1: beautiful building on the river in DC that we've seen 90 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:52,520 Speaker 1: lit up in beautiful ways, that has the best view 91 00:05:52,560 --> 00:05:55,960 Speaker 1: of the fireworks in DC. Like that building being turned 92 00:05:56,160 --> 00:06:01,600 Speaker 1: into sort of a Maga parade ground is really will 93 00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:03,480 Speaker 1: be very potent, will be very powerful. 94 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:05,600 Speaker 2: Something that you point out in your piece that I 95 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:10,000 Speaker 2: love is that Trump has not really had any real 96 00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:13,479 Speaker 2: connection to the Kennedy Center. You're right, despite not having 97 00:06:13,480 --> 00:06:16,120 Speaker 2: attended any of the Kennedy Center's marquis events or any 98 00:06:16,160 --> 00:06:18,840 Speaker 2: event at all. In his first term or sense, Trump 99 00:06:18,920 --> 00:06:21,479 Speaker 2: installed himself as chairman of the board of the Kennedy Center, 100 00:06:21,800 --> 00:06:24,840 Speaker 2: promising to usher in quote the golden age of arts 101 00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:27,560 Speaker 2: and culture. And I guess part of me wonders, like, 102 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:30,840 Speaker 2: why does it matter that he is taking over this 103 00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:32,680 Speaker 2: thing that he doesn't really have any kind of like 104 00:06:32,760 --> 00:06:36,000 Speaker 2: real connection to. He really, as you said, ignored it 105 00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:38,080 Speaker 2: in his first term, like do you think it's just 106 00:06:38,360 --> 00:06:41,719 Speaker 2: what you were saying? That He sees the incredible power 107 00:06:41,839 --> 00:06:45,000 Speaker 2: that culture has and sees what the Kennedy Center represents 108 00:06:45,040 --> 00:06:47,719 Speaker 2: to culture, so he's like, I gotta control. 109 00:06:47,480 --> 00:06:51,520 Speaker 1: That, Yeah, I mean basically, and I have to stop 110 00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:54,520 Speaker 1: it from supporting a culture that is opposed to me, 111 00:06:54,640 --> 00:06:58,359 Speaker 1: and I have to move it into supporting a culture 112 00:06:58,440 --> 00:07:06,320 Speaker 1: that reinforces my value, my power, my centrality. I think 113 00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:09,160 Speaker 1: he has targeted the Kennedy Center because it's so successful, 114 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:11,920 Speaker 1: because it's so powerful, because it is such an important 115 00:07:11,920 --> 00:07:14,960 Speaker 1: part of our national fabric, not because he doesn't think 116 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:15,640 Speaker 1: it's important. 117 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:20,080 Speaker 2: Culture is important, and it can be used to reinforce 118 00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:24,360 Speaker 2: or challenge power as part of culture health media. Carrie 119 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:27,560 Speaker 2: produces television and film projects that connect pop culture to 120 00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:32,080 Speaker 2: political change, like Hairtails on Hulu and Ladies First, Netflix's 121 00:07:32,160 --> 00:07:35,160 Speaker 2: docuseries about women and hip hop, but her work goes 122 00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:39,160 Speaker 2: beyond producing. Carrie also collaborates with entertainment companies to help 123 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:42,840 Speaker 2: infuse their content with a more authentic and nuanced cultural lens. 124 00:07:43,680 --> 00:07:46,080 Speaker 2: She got her start as a political organizer, and even 125 00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:50,120 Speaker 2: now working in Hollywood, that foundation is still central for 126 00:07:50,240 --> 00:07:53,080 Speaker 2: Carrie storytelling is just another form of organizing. 127 00:07:55,040 --> 00:07:57,360 Speaker 1: I'm someone who, as he poorn out, like, started working 128 00:07:57,360 --> 00:07:59,640 Speaker 1: in politics really young. I've always been a big reader 129 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:02,800 Speaker 1: still to this day, and I don't watch a ton 130 00:08:02,840 --> 00:08:07,000 Speaker 1: of stuff. But I, yeah, I know it's really dirty. 131 00:08:07,040 --> 00:08:10,400 Speaker 1: It's my dirty secret, as a very surprising to hear 132 00:08:10,680 --> 00:08:13,640 Speaker 1: as a film and television producer, to my dirty, dirty 133 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:16,120 Speaker 1: secret that I don't love to watch things. I would 134 00:08:16,360 --> 00:08:19,200 Speaker 1: much rather read a script than like watch a show. 135 00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:24,080 Speaker 1: But I grew up on novels like so I would 136 00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:26,160 Speaker 1: read hundreds. I'm a total nerd and would just read 137 00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:29,800 Speaker 1: hundreds of books a year and just mostly all novels. 138 00:08:30,360 --> 00:08:33,240 Speaker 1: And I think that that's what made me good at politics. 139 00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:37,040 Speaker 1: I think my ability and the novel as a form 140 00:08:37,679 --> 00:08:41,880 Speaker 1: that ability to transport you into someone else's lived experience 141 00:08:42,840 --> 00:08:45,160 Speaker 1: and someone else's life in point of view, and their 142 00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:48,320 Speaker 1: struggles and their things that you would never have got, 143 00:08:48,360 --> 00:08:50,760 Speaker 1: like I will never have lived through the dustbel right, 144 00:08:50,880 --> 00:08:53,880 Speaker 1: but I can read John Steinbeck and have a visceral 145 00:08:54,160 --> 00:08:57,880 Speaker 1: experience about how terrifying that would have been, that hardship. 146 00:08:58,000 --> 00:08:58,160 Speaker 2: Right. 147 00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:01,280 Speaker 1: And so then you go into an a line of 148 00:09:01,280 --> 00:09:05,719 Speaker 1: work by government and politics and policymaking and having all this, 149 00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:10,120 Speaker 1: having that ability to stretch yourself and your empathetic ability 150 00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:15,200 Speaker 1: and imagination to think about lives that are different from 151 00:09:15,240 --> 00:09:18,959 Speaker 1: your own but equally valid and equally valuable, makes you 152 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:21,640 Speaker 1: a better policy maker. And so I think that is 153 00:09:21,679 --> 00:09:24,760 Speaker 1: something that directly influenced me. But then I also think 154 00:09:24,840 --> 00:09:30,000 Speaker 1: that being black and growing up in suburban Ohio and 155 00:09:30,679 --> 00:09:35,000 Speaker 1: not seeing myself reflected in broader pop culture, and then 156 00:09:35,080 --> 00:09:38,000 Speaker 1: the ways that you would really cling to the representations 157 00:09:38,040 --> 00:09:40,880 Speaker 1: that were occasionally offered to you, and the way that 158 00:09:40,880 --> 00:09:44,280 Speaker 1: that started to change over the course of the nineties 159 00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:45,880 Speaker 1: and the two thousands. 160 00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:50,880 Speaker 2: In twenty thirteen, Cheerios released an ad featuring a young 161 00:09:50,880 --> 00:09:54,880 Speaker 2: girl who adorably misunderstands when her white mother explains that 162 00:09:54,960 --> 00:09:57,680 Speaker 2: cheerios are good for the heart. Wanting to help, she 163 00:09:57,840 --> 00:10:01,080 Speaker 2: pours a box of cheerios over her sleeping who was black. 164 00:10:01,800 --> 00:10:04,800 Speaker 2: It was a sweet, funny moment that unintentionally sparked a 165 00:10:04,880 --> 00:10:08,120 Speaker 2: national dialogue about mixed race families and identity in America. 166 00:10:08,840 --> 00:10:12,640 Speaker 2: Not all of that conversation was positive. Within days, General 167 00:10:12,720 --> 00:10:15,120 Speaker 2: Mills had to disable the comment on the AD's YouTube 168 00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:18,680 Speaker 2: because of a wave of racist backlash. But here's the thing. 169 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:22,640 Speaker 2: General Mills also said that comments supporting the ad outnumbered 170 00:10:22,679 --> 00:10:26,280 Speaker 2: the hateful ones ten to one. Still, the victorial that 171 00:10:26,360 --> 00:10:29,600 Speaker 2: surfaced reflected a deeper racial tension and a country that 172 00:10:29,640 --> 00:10:33,440 Speaker 2: had just re elected its first black president, who notably 173 00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:36,720 Speaker 2: was himself by racial carrier remembers it well. 174 00:10:38,240 --> 00:10:40,800 Speaker 1: Like I even remember seeing the Cheerios commercial the little 175 00:10:40,800 --> 00:10:43,680 Speaker 1: biracial girl like pouring the cereal on her dad's heart 176 00:10:43,720 --> 00:10:46,440 Speaker 1: and just being like, oh my god, you know, like 177 00:10:46,640 --> 00:10:49,439 Speaker 1: I've never seen it, right, and it was so memorable 178 00:10:49,440 --> 00:10:52,240 Speaker 1: because you've never seen anything like that. I'd never seen 179 00:10:52,280 --> 00:10:57,160 Speaker 1: anything like that before, and so that those types of 180 00:10:57,160 --> 00:11:03,000 Speaker 1: moments are really really emotionally for me. And then finally 181 00:11:03,040 --> 00:11:05,600 Speaker 1: I think that there's just we've seen it. We've seen 182 00:11:05,679 --> 00:11:07,280 Speaker 1: the proof is in the pudding. We've seen it over 183 00:11:07,320 --> 00:11:11,120 Speaker 1: and over again. It's not a coincidence that the number 184 00:11:11,160 --> 00:11:14,319 Speaker 1: one show in television in the years preceding Barack Obama's 185 00:11:14,320 --> 00:11:17,440 Speaker 1: election was twenty four, where the president was a black 186 00:11:17,600 --> 00:11:22,839 Speaker 1: former senator basketball star with a with like a high 187 00:11:22,920 --> 00:11:27,080 Speaker 1: moral compass, and then years later, like you know, seventy 188 00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:30,680 Speaker 1: million people watch the show every week, week after week 189 00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:34,040 Speaker 1: for years and years and years, and then Barack Obama 190 00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:37,760 Speaker 1: shows up and people are like, oh, he actually seems 191 00:11:37,800 --> 00:11:41,719 Speaker 1: familiar to me. That doesn't feel like this massive departure 192 00:11:41,760 --> 00:11:45,040 Speaker 1: from something that exists in my life and in my world. 193 00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:50,160 Speaker 1: Will and Grace Rosie O'Donnell Ellen DeGeneres. When we started 194 00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:53,439 Speaker 1: trying to advocate for gay rights and for LGBTQ equality 195 00:11:53,520 --> 00:11:56,560 Speaker 1: and for all marriage equality, all of these things, there 196 00:11:56,679 --> 00:11:59,480 Speaker 1: was this cultural precedent that let people know what was 197 00:11:59,480 --> 00:12:01,000 Speaker 1: on the other sid side of the change that we 198 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:04,120 Speaker 1: were asking them to make. And these the people who 199 00:12:04,240 --> 00:12:07,640 Speaker 1: loved these characters, were like, I want the best for them, 200 00:12:08,120 --> 00:12:10,720 Speaker 1: and therefore I would I refuse to deny the rights 201 00:12:10,760 --> 00:12:15,800 Speaker 1: any longer. And so culture shows up and allows us 202 00:12:15,840 --> 00:12:19,480 Speaker 1: to imagine what is possible and why should what our 203 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:22,560 Speaker 1: values that truly are or could be, and then we 204 00:12:22,640 --> 00:12:26,040 Speaker 1: can legislate and policy make around them. So I think, 205 00:12:26,080 --> 00:12:29,280 Speaker 1: both from my own personal experience, but also what I've 206 00:12:29,320 --> 00:12:32,640 Speaker 1: seen in governors, like from serving governors, off if we've 207 00:12:32,640 --> 00:12:35,079 Speaker 1: been in the White House, if there is a cultural 208 00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:39,920 Speaker 1: precedent to something, it is a lot easier to create 209 00:12:40,040 --> 00:12:42,840 Speaker 1: laws and legislation around it than it is if you're 210 00:12:42,880 --> 00:12:46,240 Speaker 1: asking people to embrace a change that they don't know 211 00:12:46,280 --> 00:12:48,880 Speaker 1: what's on the other side of. Right, there was all 212 00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:52,680 Speaker 1: this sort of white space and the cultural imagination around 213 00:12:52,679 --> 00:12:55,400 Speaker 1: what the ACA could be, what Obamacare could be, what 214 00:12:55,480 --> 00:12:58,120 Speaker 1: national health care could be. And so the right filled 215 00:12:58,160 --> 00:13:00,400 Speaker 1: that white space up with like, say, we are pale 216 00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:03,400 Speaker 1: and talking about death panels. And that was so easy 217 00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:06,079 Speaker 1: to do because people didn't know what it was. There 218 00:13:06,200 --> 00:13:09,600 Speaker 1: wasn't It wasn't like er was do. It was like, 219 00:13:09,679 --> 00:13:12,040 Speaker 1: you know, what, we should have nationalized healthcare. All of 220 00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:14,680 Speaker 1: these problems would be solved that Da Datta Dug Gray's 221 00:13:14,679 --> 00:13:17,440 Speaker 1: anatomy isn't about that, like if but if they had been, 222 00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:21,240 Speaker 1: maybe that would have been a little bit easier and 223 00:13:21,400 --> 00:13:24,320 Speaker 1: less contentious of a policy to implement. 224 00:13:24,520 --> 00:13:26,480 Speaker 2: Well, I've never really thought about that before, but that 225 00:13:26,480 --> 00:13:30,160 Speaker 2: makes so much sense that really the job of culture 226 00:13:30,320 --> 00:13:34,080 Speaker 2: can be to help people imagine a future that it's 227 00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:35,760 Speaker 2: better than the future that we have now, and what 228 00:13:35,800 --> 00:13:37,400 Speaker 2: it might look like, what it might look like to 229 00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:41,840 Speaker 2: have marriage equality, affordable healthcare, like all of these things 230 00:13:41,880 --> 00:13:44,520 Speaker 2: that we want, but maybe it's a little hard to 231 00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:47,560 Speaker 2: imagine what it would actually look like or be like 232 00:13:47,640 --> 00:13:49,720 Speaker 2: or feel like if we had these things, it's about 233 00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:52,080 Speaker 2: future like world building and future looking. 234 00:13:52,240 --> 00:13:54,360 Speaker 1: Or the opposite. Right, Like, one of the most popular 235 00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:57,040 Speaker 1: shows in the country right now is Yellowstone, and that's 236 00:13:57,080 --> 00:13:59,120 Speaker 1: been true for years and years, And what does that 237 00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:02,199 Speaker 1: show about? That shows about a patriarch who runs for governor, 238 00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:07,280 Speaker 1: who operates outside the law, murders people, does whatever he wants, 239 00:14:07,320 --> 00:14:09,800 Speaker 1: but still gets to be the hero, right, And like 240 00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:12,640 Speaker 1: that's a hell of the show. I love Yellowstone, I've 241 00:14:12,679 --> 00:14:16,440 Speaker 1: seen every episode. But is it good for society? Probably not. 242 00:14:17,440 --> 00:14:20,840 Speaker 1: I mean it makes figure Donald Trump and figures like 243 00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:25,280 Speaker 1: him seem familiar, seem reasonable, seem like the hero when 244 00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:26,960 Speaker 1: they are not it's all fun and games on a 245 00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:29,720 Speaker 1: cattle ranch in Montana. But like we're talking about real 246 00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:33,120 Speaker 1: people's lives, and yet we are allowing the John Dutton 247 00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:36,640 Speaker 1: and not even a good as good of one to 248 00:14:36,640 --> 00:14:40,280 Speaker 1: be the president. Like what are we doing? But again, 249 00:14:40,560 --> 00:14:47,360 Speaker 1: like that culture allows us, like normalizes and kind of 250 00:14:47,400 --> 00:14:52,200 Speaker 1: really passively sets the parameters for the political outcomes that 251 00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:53,760 Speaker 1: we see in the country. 252 00:14:56,040 --> 00:15:08,120 Speaker 3: Let's take a quick break at our back. 253 00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:11,600 Speaker 1: A few years ago. 254 00:15:11,760 --> 00:15:13,840 Speaker 2: It was kind of a given that people who made 255 00:15:13,920 --> 00:15:16,520 Speaker 2: and cared about culture the kind of culture that anybody 256 00:15:16,640 --> 00:15:19,520 Speaker 2: was really paying attention to anyway, were not people on 257 00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:23,360 Speaker 2: the right. But today things have really changed. They may 258 00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:27,320 Speaker 2: not have Beyonce or Taylor Swift, but from podcasts to streaming, 259 00:15:27,680 --> 00:15:30,240 Speaker 2: a lot of the most powerful voices at the forefront 260 00:15:30,280 --> 00:15:33,400 Speaker 2: of culture are right wing internet personalities that you might 261 00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:37,840 Speaker 2: not have ever heard of. Tell us about this new 262 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:41,760 Speaker 2: cultural celebrity ecosystem, because I feel it, I see it. 263 00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:45,240 Speaker 2: It's hard to it's hard to verbalize, but like, you 264 00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:47,200 Speaker 2: know it when you see it, and you feel it 265 00:15:47,240 --> 00:15:48,400 Speaker 2: when it's there, you know what I mean? 266 00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:52,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean so like Trump is actually not even 267 00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:58,720 Speaker 1: particularly individually responsible for this. But ages ago, not ages ago, 268 00:15:58,720 --> 00:16:03,000 Speaker 1: fifteen years ago, twenty years ago, the best and brightest 269 00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:06,640 Speaker 1: sort of thinkers in the conservative movement understood that the 270 00:16:06,640 --> 00:16:10,760 Speaker 1: things that made Democrats powerful and meant that they would 271 00:16:10,760 --> 00:16:15,600 Speaker 1: win elections was culture and the cultural narrative of the 272 00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:20,680 Speaker 1: country and people and so storytelling and unions basically, and 273 00:16:20,720 --> 00:16:26,720 Speaker 1: they systematically have tried to either dismantle or take over both. 274 00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:30,760 Speaker 1: So unions have never been less potent in American life 275 00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:36,600 Speaker 1: than they are right now. And then two they started 276 00:16:36,640 --> 00:16:40,960 Speaker 1: making these massive investments in culture that they understood that 277 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:48,000 Speaker 1: culture reinforced progressive values that leaned more towards democrats, and 278 00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:51,400 Speaker 1: so they started creating their own distribution platforms. They started 279 00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:55,000 Speaker 1: creating their own stars and farming talent and investing in 280 00:16:55,120 --> 00:16:59,200 Speaker 1: people like Ben Shapiro in The Daily Wire, who then 281 00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:04,840 Speaker 1: built these massive audiences for and shifted consumer demand. We 282 00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:08,200 Speaker 1: know that the average American spends four to six hours 283 00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:13,639 Speaker 1: watching video content today, and so the right started meeting 284 00:17:13,680 --> 00:17:17,480 Speaker 1: that demand and giving them content that would bring them further, 285 00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:21,439 Speaker 1: bring your generalized audience further and further and further to 286 00:17:21,520 --> 00:17:24,359 Speaker 1: the right. And we've seen it work extraordinarily while as 287 00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:27,240 Speaker 1: young men, but we're also seeing it in things like 288 00:17:27,320 --> 00:17:32,400 Speaker 1: tradwives and like very kind of conservative takes on how 289 00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:34,399 Speaker 1: women should be and how we should dress and makeup 290 00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:36,720 Speaker 1: desorrows and all of this stuff. And so they did 291 00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:39,959 Speaker 1: it over digital, and then it really sort of created 292 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:44,400 Speaker 1: the self fulfilling, the self feeding machine, where Hollywood, which 293 00:17:44,440 --> 00:17:47,560 Speaker 1: is a commercial enterprise, Hollywood is not a social good, 294 00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:51,320 Speaker 1: like none of these television studios care about social good. 295 00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:53,840 Speaker 1: They care about making money. And they saw that there 296 00:17:53,920 --> 00:17:57,280 Speaker 1: was this demand for these more kind of conservative esque 297 00:17:57,560 --> 00:18:01,280 Speaker 1: worldview types of shows, programs make talent, and so they 298 00:18:01,359 --> 00:18:03,359 Speaker 1: started getting into the game as well, and we started 299 00:18:03,359 --> 00:18:06,000 Speaker 1: seeing it show up in TV and movies. And so 300 00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:11,240 Speaker 1: that Donald Trump, because he's such an entertainer, say what 301 00:18:11,320 --> 00:18:13,280 Speaker 1: you want. I have a lot of critiques and criticisms 302 00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:16,199 Speaker 1: of this man, but like, he is entertaining, and he 303 00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:19,639 Speaker 1: seems fun, and he seems like he's having a good time. 304 00:18:20,080 --> 00:18:24,880 Speaker 1: And so he understood very quickly and very intuitively the 305 00:18:25,040 --> 00:18:27,520 Speaker 1: power of these entertainers. And he always has. He was 306 00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:31,000 Speaker 1: always on WWF or WWE. He was always He's on 307 00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:35,280 Speaker 1: the Apprentice, right, the massive, massive television star. He was 308 00:18:35,320 --> 00:18:38,560 Speaker 1: doing the cameos in Home Alone. Like, he understands the 309 00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:42,840 Speaker 1: power popularity and the power of sort of mass media 310 00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:46,560 Speaker 1: and pop culture to ensure a particular outcome or at 311 00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:51,240 Speaker 1: least vastly increase the likelihood of a particular outcome. And 312 00:18:51,320 --> 00:18:54,160 Speaker 1: so he really doubled down, and his campaign really doubled down. 313 00:18:54,200 --> 00:18:57,159 Speaker 1: They recognize that his celebrity and his ability to be 314 00:18:57,359 --> 00:19:01,479 Speaker 1: like Johnny good Times on a four hour lives was 315 00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:04,680 Speaker 1: this massive strength of his and so they had him 316 00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:07,359 Speaker 1: out there, they had him showing up, they had him 317 00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:11,240 Speaker 1: really participating in the rules of the game, of the 318 00:19:11,280 --> 00:19:15,640 Speaker 1: digital sphere and sort of broader culture and entertainment, and 319 00:19:15,760 --> 00:19:18,200 Speaker 1: they just understood it a lot better than we did. Right. 320 00:19:18,280 --> 00:19:22,600 Speaker 1: Andrew Breitbart, who's again like this like kind of founding 321 00:19:22,640 --> 00:19:27,000 Speaker 1: father of the modern conservative movement, understood culture in a 322 00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:30,639 Speaker 1: really potent way. And they have very quietly, over the 323 00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:34,880 Speaker 1: course of the last fifteen years been taking over culture 324 00:19:34,960 --> 00:19:37,760 Speaker 1: in a way that we have not. We have on 325 00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:42,280 Speaker 1: the left been really passive about right for so long, 326 00:19:42,359 --> 00:19:46,560 Speaker 1: culture was just inadvertently on our side without there having 327 00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:51,320 Speaker 1: to be much interaction or intervention on our part, and 328 00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:55,000 Speaker 1: so we just sort of allowed it to happen. And 329 00:19:55,080 --> 00:19:58,240 Speaker 1: so now you see these guys with these massive platforms, 330 00:19:58,280 --> 00:20:04,080 Speaker 1: the Logan Paul, the Joe Rogan's, the Neelk Boys, all 331 00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:06,920 Speaker 1: of these guys, THEO Vaughn, right, and they're all like, 332 00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:10,280 Speaker 1: they're all really really good at what they do, the 333 00:20:10,359 --> 00:20:13,119 Speaker 1: aiden rosses of the world. It might not be your taste, 334 00:20:13,320 --> 00:20:17,359 Speaker 1: but they are incredibly good at what they do, and 335 00:20:17,800 --> 00:20:23,400 Speaker 1: they operate incredibly so incredibly sophisticated ways they platform each other, 336 00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:26,400 Speaker 1: they interact with one another. They seem like they're having 337 00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:30,520 Speaker 1: a great time. And President Trump is just like, I 338 00:20:30,560 --> 00:20:32,160 Speaker 1: will give you all the time and attention you want. 339 00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:33,879 Speaker 1: You can come to the inauguration, you can come to 340 00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:36,480 Speaker 1: these parties, you can fly around on the plane. It's 341 00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:38,879 Speaker 1: gonna be great and it works. 342 00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:42,400 Speaker 2: Right. I am in the middle of a research fellowship 343 00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:47,000 Speaker 2: at Harvard's Brookman Klein Center studying exactly this phenomena, right, 344 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:49,760 Speaker 2: Like I'm a podcaster. You're a podcaster. When you go 345 00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:53,800 Speaker 2: on Apple Podcasts, the top fifty podcasts are all the 346 00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:56,560 Speaker 2: shows that you've just mentioned. And the thing that gets 347 00:20:56,640 --> 00:20:59,560 Speaker 2: me is, and I could tuckle day about this is 348 00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:04,240 Speaker 2: I do think that, specifically in podcasting, we let these 349 00:21:04,359 --> 00:21:08,960 Speaker 2: voices and these platforms grow to be astronomical in size, 350 00:21:09,119 --> 00:21:12,960 Speaker 2: in reach, and influence while simultaneously being like, oh, well, 351 00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:15,600 Speaker 2: what happens in these spaces doesn't really matter. It's just 352 00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:17,879 Speaker 2: two guys in a garage talking. 353 00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:18,760 Speaker 1: Who cares. 354 00:21:19,040 --> 00:21:22,600 Speaker 2: Meanwhile, I would argue that some of those some of 355 00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:25,200 Speaker 2: those guys with microphones and their garages are in their 356 00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:27,600 Speaker 2: dorms or whatever. Are the reasons why being out another 357 00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:31,040 Speaker 2: Trump presidency. Right during the inauguration, That's who Trump's team 358 00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:35,920 Speaker 2: exupplicitly shouted out. It was people like THEO Vonn want to. 359 00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:40,760 Speaker 1: Bet the note Boys, Aiden Ross Uh, THEO Vaughn Bottle 360 00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:44,399 Speaker 1: with the Boys, and last but not least, the mighty 361 00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:45,679 Speaker 1: and powerful Joe Rogan. 362 00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:47,639 Speaker 3: What do we do with that? 363 00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:51,720 Speaker 2: Like, there are still people who don't recognize the massive 364 00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:55,679 Speaker 2: power that these platforms hold while they continue to build 365 00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:56,840 Speaker 2: that power and influence. 366 00:21:57,520 --> 00:21:59,960 Speaker 1: Wait, if you're not recognizing the power of these guys 367 00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:02,640 Speaker 1: and like, you're just not a serious person, Like I'm sorry, 368 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:05,080 Speaker 1: you don't know what's going on. You're out of touch, 369 00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:08,680 Speaker 1: or you're naive, or you're you're just in a closed 370 00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:13,120 Speaker 1: loop of information. Because it's incredibly obvious and very serious people, 371 00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:15,040 Speaker 1: and there's all the data to support it. Like it's 372 00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:19,960 Speaker 1: not my intuition, this, it's it is fact. And so 373 00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:23,880 Speaker 1: if people aren't taking that seriously, then like because they're 374 00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:26,919 Speaker 1: not serious. Oh, I mean I don't know what to say. Sorry, 375 00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:29,480 Speaker 1: you can send me an email, we can talk about it. 376 00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:36,000 Speaker 1: And so, but you're right, I think that for too long, 377 00:22:36,119 --> 00:22:37,960 Speaker 1: and I'm guilty of this too. A couple of years 378 00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:40,120 Speaker 1: ago I would have been like, who cares about any 379 00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:42,040 Speaker 1: of this? But about a year and a half ago, 380 00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:44,320 Speaker 1: I was like, oh my god, it's a disaster, you know. 381 00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:48,240 Speaker 1: But that's but we all want to you know, liberals 382 00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:50,280 Speaker 1: want to read the New York Times, in the Washington 383 00:22:50,359 --> 00:22:56,720 Speaker 1: Post or whatever semaphore and overly rely on journalism and 384 00:22:56,760 --> 00:23:00,680 Speaker 1: really poop poo culture and really poopoo entertained. And that's 385 00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:04,120 Speaker 1: just where that's where everyone is like, I don't. It's 386 00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:08,560 Speaker 1: been a massive judge, it's been a massive wrong choice 387 00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:11,919 Speaker 1: that we have made around how we how we think 388 00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:16,879 Speaker 1: about how information moves through the country and interacts with individuals' lives, 389 00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:21,320 Speaker 1: and to be perfectly honest, even when we do quote 390 00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:24,080 Speaker 1: unquote get it, we don't, we still don't. 391 00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:28,840 Speaker 2: As a podcaster, I was deeply fascinated watching the role 392 00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:32,440 Speaker 2: that podcasting played in the last presidential election. People even 393 00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:35,040 Speaker 2: called it the podcast election, and I kind of agree. 394 00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:38,560 Speaker 2: Trump recognized the power of podcasts early on, from Joe 395 00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:41,520 Speaker 2: Rogan tot Theovonn's This Past Weekend to the Nelk Boys's 396 00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:44,280 Speaker 2: Full Send podcast Say what you Will about Trump, and 397 00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:48,080 Speaker 2: lord knows I do. He used the podcast ecosystem effectively 398 00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:51,359 Speaker 2: to get himself out there. Vice President Harrimis got points 399 00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:54,359 Speaker 2: for an appearance on Alex Cooper's super popular Sex and 400 00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:57,879 Speaker 2: Relationships podcast Call her Daddy a smart move for sure, 401 00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:01,639 Speaker 2: but call her Daddy's listeners who call themselves the Daddy 402 00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:04,480 Speaker 2: Gang have come to expect certain things of the guests 403 00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:08,280 Speaker 2: of the podcast. For instance, guests usually share an emotional 404 00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:12,560 Speaker 2: story about their romantic lives. Host Alex Cooper usually wear 405 00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:16,919 Speaker 2: sweatpants and now did the shows let's call it relaxed style. 406 00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:19,359 Speaker 2: So how did Harris show up to this platform? 407 00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:24,040 Speaker 1: One of my sort of pet peeves from the of 408 00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:27,880 Speaker 1: which I have several, but one of my pet peeves 409 00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:32,720 Speaker 1: from the Harris campaign in twenty twenty four was the 410 00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:35,720 Speaker 1: was not even just that I'm happy that they did 411 00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:38,520 Speaker 1: call her daddy, but like the manner in which they 412 00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:40,159 Speaker 1: did it right. And so if you compare and you 413 00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:44,000 Speaker 1: can trash, I think I think Kamala Harris did an 414 00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:48,119 Speaker 1: extraordinary job. She was given a totally raw deal. She 415 00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:53,120 Speaker 1: was not served well by that campaign, and we can 416 00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:57,600 Speaker 1: have that conversation in a different way. But even when 417 00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:02,640 Speaker 1: they would do thing I call her daddy right, they 418 00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:06,479 Speaker 1: make Alex come to her. She doesn't wear a hoodie, 419 00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:11,719 Speaker 1: she doesn't talk about sex or doug or it's not 420 00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:16,040 Speaker 1: a particularly like intimate or warm conversation, there was no 421 00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:22,720 Speaker 1: airing of an insecurity, and she broke the format of 422 00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:28,040 Speaker 1: the show. Alex Cooper has built something extraordinary and she's 423 00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:30,720 Speaker 1: done it on purpose, like call her Daddy? Is that 424 00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:34,280 Speaker 1: way on purpose? Because it works because that's what the 425 00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:37,840 Speaker 1: audience wants, because that's what Alex wants. And so Kama 426 00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:41,919 Speaker 1: came on and she broke the form. She made the 427 00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:47,000 Speaker 1: show conformed to her. She went on Charlemagne and didn't 428 00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:49,879 Speaker 1: obey the rules of the show. She made the show 429 00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:52,840 Speaker 1: fit her rules. She went she talked about talking points 430 00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:55,919 Speaker 1: and Charlemagne tried to get hers Like you called her 431 00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:58,440 Speaker 1: out for it, and like she gave a peppy, sassy answer, 432 00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:01,040 Speaker 1: I get it, Like that's called this discipline. I get it. 433 00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:05,680 Speaker 1: You're right, and you are not actually doing yourself any 434 00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:10,800 Speaker 1: favors by going on a show that viewers have an 435 00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:15,680 Speaker 1: anticipated operates in a certain way, that has rules about 436 00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:17,960 Speaker 1: how it is governed, that has a structure about how 437 00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:22,040 Speaker 1: it works, and then breaking that form. It actually makes 438 00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:24,160 Speaker 1: it much more difficult for people to hear what you're 439 00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:27,600 Speaker 1: trying to say, and they're not turning into sharpes tuning 440 00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:32,280 Speaker 1: into Charlemagne for a policy lesson like people know where 441 00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:34,520 Speaker 1: to go if they want a sermon, they know where 442 00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:36,720 Speaker 1: to go if they want a lecture, and it's not 443 00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:39,719 Speaker 1: Charlemagne the Gods Show, and it's not called her Daddy. 444 00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:44,879 Speaker 1: And so that was really, i think, really poorly executed 445 00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:47,439 Speaker 1: on behalf of the campaign. She got bad strategic advice 446 00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:50,520 Speaker 1: about how to appear on those shows, and it did 447 00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:53,080 Speaker 1: her a real disservice because we know she's that girl. 448 00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:55,399 Speaker 1: We know she loves talking about dud we know she 449 00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:57,520 Speaker 1: can ki key, we know she can sit with the 450 00:26:57,560 --> 00:26:59,320 Speaker 1: girls and do the thing. We know she can sit 451 00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:01,560 Speaker 1: with the brothers and do the thing. And they didn't. 452 00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:03,520 Speaker 1: She didn't. She did not give the advice to do that. 453 00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:06,680 Speaker 1: You can trast out with how Donald Trump showed up 454 00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:08,879 Speaker 1: and he would show up. I've listened to him on 455 00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:11,000 Speaker 1: the Nolf Boys, I've listened to him on Aiden Ross. Right, 456 00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:12,880 Speaker 1: he shows up, He's like, what are we doing here? 457 00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:16,040 Speaker 1: You tell me how we're gonna do this? Am I 458 00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:17,480 Speaker 1: here for three hours? Okay? I do? 459 00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:21,920 Speaker 4: Like what are And he's just like kiking and having 460 00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:26,399 Speaker 4: great time, and he's showing up with some respect and 461 00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:30,520 Speaker 4: consideration for these massive things and these massive entertainment properties 462 00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:33,399 Speaker 4: that these individual talents have built, and is like, I 463 00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:36,240 Speaker 4: will do what your audience has said that they want 464 00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:38,480 Speaker 4: by tuning in every week, and I will, I will 465 00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:41,520 Speaker 4: conform to the to the boundaries. 466 00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:42,359 Speaker 3: Of the form. 467 00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:45,480 Speaker 1: And it works. And that's why his appearances on these 468 00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:48,000 Speaker 1: things are so much more successful. Not only did he 469 00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:50,879 Speaker 1: do volume, he did way more than she did, but 470 00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:54,400 Speaker 1: he also did it in the right way. And we 471 00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:59,639 Speaker 1: have got to be training our candidates and our leaders 472 00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:02,080 Speaker 1: and our people to do a better job of this. 473 00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:06,159 Speaker 1: AOC spectacular that she gets it. She's intuitive, She's like, 474 00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:09,200 Speaker 1: is she gonna show up on something? She shows up appropriately, 475 00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:11,480 Speaker 1: show she knows what the audience wan, she gives, she 476 00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:15,680 Speaker 1: understands the assignment, and she aces it right, but that 477 00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:18,760 Speaker 1: she can't do it by herself, Like she can't put 478 00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:21,280 Speaker 1: the Democratic Party on her back and climb us up 479 00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:25,320 Speaker 1: the hill. Same with Jasmincrockett, same with Senator Chris Murphy. 480 00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:29,920 Speaker 1: So the small number of people who get how this works, 481 00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:32,439 Speaker 1: like needs needs some more help. And I know that 482 00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:34,879 Speaker 1: people are trying. I know that you see a bunch 483 00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:37,120 Speaker 1: of influencers going to the hill and trying to get 484 00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:39,480 Speaker 1: these Congress people to get it together, which is great, 485 00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:43,600 Speaker 1: but yeah, at least for this round, it's too little, 486 00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:44,000 Speaker 1: too late. 487 00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:49,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think you're really onto something about how 488 00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:55,000 Speaker 2: it shows a further devaluing of or misunderstanding of the 489 00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:57,480 Speaker 2: power of this of culture and the power of these 490 00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:00,760 Speaker 2: spaces because call her daddy for instance, the platform that 491 00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:04,120 Speaker 2: she has built has so much power. What do you 492 00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:06,760 Speaker 2: get from going on the show and leaning away from 493 00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:09,040 Speaker 2: the power of that platform being like, oh the little thing, 494 00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:10,920 Speaker 2: Like like, what do you get from that? 495 00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:16,239 Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know, as if anyone like 496 00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:20,600 Speaker 1: because I think there's this this this obsession that Democrats 497 00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:23,520 Speaker 1: have that is really I mean, I remember this in 498 00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:24,360 Speaker 1: the Obama era. 499 00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:29,160 Speaker 5: It was just like this this continued path, a logical 500 00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:33,000 Speaker 5: belief that if only people understood the policy better, they 501 00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:34,880 Speaker 5: would know that we were the right pick. 502 00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:38,720 Speaker 1: And it's like if anyone get cared, if the American 503 00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:42,760 Speaker 1: voter cared about policy, or enough American voters cared about policy, 504 00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:46,479 Speaker 1: Elizabeth Warren would be president. Like what are you talking about? 505 00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:49,000 Speaker 1: So why are you putting her on these shows to 506 00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:54,240 Speaker 1: deliver policy talking points? Like that the political reporters at 507 00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:56,479 Speaker 1: Politico or The New York times might care about that, 508 00:29:56,600 --> 00:30:00,440 Speaker 1: but like voters don't. Obviously they care about having a 509 00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:05,600 Speaker 1: president that seems like they're like them. And that's not 510 00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:06,360 Speaker 1: what we were doing. 511 00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:11,080 Speaker 2: And I get why it might be tempting to kind 512 00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:13,440 Speaker 2: of dig in your heels and plug your ears and 513 00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:15,320 Speaker 2: say lah la lah, that's not true, but it's not 514 00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:16,280 Speaker 2: getting us anywhere. 515 00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:18,720 Speaker 1: Like it or not true. 516 00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:20,720 Speaker 2: But what you just said is the truth. And so 517 00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:23,360 Speaker 2: like I do sometimes get frustrated that I feel like 518 00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:27,440 Speaker 2: they are trying to serve something that does not align 519 00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:30,080 Speaker 2: with the reality that you just articulated, which I agree with. 520 00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:33,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, And it's like it doesn't come from a mess, 521 00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:35,280 Speaker 1: it comes from the right place. I get it. People 522 00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:37,239 Speaker 1: should care about this stuff. We want them to care 523 00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:40,400 Speaker 1: about this stuff. The problem that they don't, And so like, 524 00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:43,280 Speaker 1: play the game that's actually on the table, not the 525 00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:45,120 Speaker 1: one that you wish was on the table. 526 00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:48,440 Speaker 5: More. 527 00:30:48,480 --> 00:31:01,000 Speaker 2: After a quick break, le's get right back into it. 528 00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:04,800 Speaker 2: Everyone is talking about the role that culture can play 529 00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:08,360 Speaker 2: in shaping politics for better or worse now, but Carrie's 530 00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:10,920 Speaker 2: been talking about it for a really long time since 531 00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:12,360 Speaker 2: she was in the Obama White House. 532 00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:13,640 Speaker 1: And it's those. 533 00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:18,920 Speaker 2: Conversations that seated her newest project, the podcast Twig and Jenkins, 534 00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:22,480 Speaker 2: It really sits at this very interesting intersection of politics 535 00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:25,920 Speaker 2: and culture. Are through the show, are you trying to 536 00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:27,440 Speaker 2: sort of shape both? 537 00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:30,920 Speaker 1: I mean, I guess honestly, Brad Jenkins and I shared 538 00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:32,880 Speaker 1: an office at the White House for five years, and 539 00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:35,320 Speaker 1: so he's the homie, you know, like that's the that's 540 00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:37,959 Speaker 1: the that's my big dog. And so he and I 541 00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:41,320 Speaker 1: just yap all the time anyway and terrorize each other 542 00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:43,960 Speaker 1: with our opinions, and so we just sort of inflicted 543 00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:46,920 Speaker 1: up decided to inflict it on the on the public. 544 00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:52,080 Speaker 1: And I think in these times when there isn't there's 545 00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:57,320 Speaker 1: so there's very very few binary right wrong answers in 546 00:31:57,360 --> 00:31:59,560 Speaker 1: this moment, right There's a lot of analysis, a lot 547 00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:01,920 Speaker 1: of data, a lot of ways of interpreting what's going 548 00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:05,160 Speaker 1: on in a country this big and this complex often 549 00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:09,440 Speaker 1: almost doesn't have a right answer. And so I think 550 00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:14,200 Speaker 1: a huge part of what Brad and I are doing 551 00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:16,800 Speaker 1: on the show is as much for us as for 552 00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:20,320 Speaker 1: anyone else, which is just like teasing out what some 553 00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:23,200 Speaker 1: of those different ways of interpreting what's going on are 554 00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:27,160 Speaker 1: and then meaning making of them, like trying to make 555 00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:31,160 Speaker 1: sense of what's actually happening, and then also sharing a 556 00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:35,240 Speaker 1: perspective that doesn't get a ton of a ton of play, right, Like, 557 00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:39,200 Speaker 1: I'm pretty upset, or not upset, it's not the right word, 558 00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:46,840 Speaker 1: but I feel pretty underwhelmed and unserved by political coverage. 559 00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:51,840 Speaker 1: I feel incredibly poorly served by cultural coverage. And so 560 00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:59,360 Speaker 1: the I think there are just obvious realities to both 561 00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:02,440 Speaker 1: Brad and I because we both said we both were 562 00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:05,240 Speaker 1: in politics, serve in the Obama administration, left and went 563 00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:08,760 Speaker 1: into culture work. And so there are things about politics 564 00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:11,160 Speaker 1: that feel really obvious to us but don't seem super 565 00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:13,360 Speaker 1: obvious to people who don't come to it from a 566 00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:16,200 Speaker 1: cultural lens. And then there's stuff about our culture that 567 00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:19,640 Speaker 1: seems really obvious to us that isn't obvious to people 568 00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:21,600 Speaker 1: in culture because they're not coming to it from a 569 00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:26,320 Speaker 1: political lens. And so I think we just are trying 570 00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:29,960 Speaker 1: to almost serve as a bridge between the two. It's 571 00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:33,280 Speaker 1: like the people over here, like people in culture, you 572 00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:35,920 Speaker 1: guys need to be paying attention to like this particular 573 00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:38,960 Speaker 1: part of politics and this particular thing. We recognize that 574 00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:42,080 Speaker 1: no one's paying attention to all of it, But like 575 00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:44,800 Speaker 1: here's something we want to point and signal to something 576 00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:46,640 Speaker 1: that you shouldn't miss or that you should be flagging. 577 00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:49,320 Speaker 1: And then in politics we want to do the same right, 578 00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:51,760 Speaker 1: so like serve as a bridge to culture. It's too 579 00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:53,920 Speaker 1: much to try and follow all of it. You're not 580 00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:58,520 Speaker 1: going to We all have a limited ability to think 581 00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:01,360 Speaker 1: about every thing when you're trying to like live your 582 00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:04,640 Speaker 1: life and drink your water and get your electrolytes or 583 00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:08,120 Speaker 1: whatever you're doing, plus do your career, plus you know, 584 00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:12,160 Speaker 1: plan for fascism. So like, here're the handful of things 585 00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:14,480 Speaker 1: that you should be paying attention to that are showing 586 00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:18,240 Speaker 1: up in culture that you're going to have to interact 587 00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:20,200 Speaker 1: with at some point down the road. So I think 588 00:34:20,239 --> 00:34:22,320 Speaker 1: we very much think of ourselves as like a bridge 589 00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:24,440 Speaker 1: between the two, just to bring them a little bit 590 00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:28,239 Speaker 1: closer into dialogue and or be a cheat sheet if 591 00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:31,200 Speaker 1: you're further on one end of the spectrum than the other, 592 00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:33,640 Speaker 1: and just sort of like, here's a couple of things 593 00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:34,960 Speaker 1: that you should be paying attention to. 594 00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:38,719 Speaker 2: I love that term a bridge, because I do think 595 00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:41,960 Speaker 2: for a long time there was this attitude where culture 596 00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:45,400 Speaker 2: was over here and like politics was over here, and 597 00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:47,239 Speaker 2: the reality of how people live their lives is that 598 00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:50,520 Speaker 2: it's it's like a then diagram or that then diagram 599 00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:53,440 Speaker 2: is a circle where culture and politics are borrowing from 600 00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:54,680 Speaker 2: each other and there in a lot of ways are 601 00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:57,040 Speaker 2: like the same thing. And I think you're right that 602 00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:00,520 Speaker 2: we don't have a lot of media that refer that 603 00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:02,160 Speaker 2: in the way that I think that it needs to 604 00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:06,640 Speaker 2: be reflected, like unserved. Something about that word really speaks 605 00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:11,480 Speaker 2: to me because it's like a hole in my diet. 606 00:35:11,239 --> 00:35:14,760 Speaker 1: That I didn't even kind of realize needed to be filled. Yeah, totally, 607 00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:18,880 Speaker 1: totally and yoc Sergent, we had him on the podcast 608 00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:22,400 Speaker 1: a couple of weeks ago and he said something really interesting, 609 00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:26,759 Speaker 1: which is, you know, politics is where some people are 610 00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:29,279 Speaker 1: some of the time, but culture is where everyone is 611 00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:33,080 Speaker 1: all of the time. And I think we lose sight 612 00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:35,520 Speaker 1: of that, especially those of us in politics full time. 613 00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:39,720 Speaker 1: I think we really lose sight of how much anyone 614 00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:44,319 Speaker 1: is paying attention anything related to politics. I remember I 615 00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:46,200 Speaker 1: grew up in Ohio and I was working when I 616 00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:48,520 Speaker 1: was in the White House at the time, and I 617 00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:51,680 Speaker 1: was home for something, and you know, ran into somebody 618 00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:54,200 Speaker 1: I knew, or was talking to one of my girl's boyfriends, 619 00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:56,560 Speaker 1: or something, and they were like, so what do you do? 620 00:35:56,600 --> 00:35:58,040 Speaker 1: And I was like, oh, I worked for the president 621 00:35:58,080 --> 00:36:01,319 Speaker 1: and they're like, the president of what? And I was 622 00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:05,400 Speaker 1: like right, like that doesn't mean any like and I 623 00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:07,800 Speaker 1: was like, oh, President Obama and they were like, oh cool. 624 00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:13,080 Speaker 1: Like I usually get a different response, you know, I 625 00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:16,160 Speaker 1: usually get a little bit more feedback, But that's because 626 00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:19,440 Speaker 1: I'm usually telling people that in DC, right, right, and 627 00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:22,200 Speaker 1: that means something, But it doesn't mean anything to people 628 00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:25,879 Speaker 1: in Columbus, Ohio, like not really other than like, oh God, 629 00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:31,000 Speaker 1: is she gonna talk to me about politics? So I 630 00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:35,640 Speaker 1: think we underestimate how how little we're how little they're 631 00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:38,600 Speaker 1: thinking about us when it comes to cultural impact. 632 00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:40,920 Speaker 2: Is it over for us? Have we given up too 633 00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:42,960 Speaker 2: much of the game when it comes to culture? Do 634 00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:44,319 Speaker 2: you see us gaining any ground here? 635 00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:46,959 Speaker 1: Well, there's nowhere to go but up from where we are, 636 00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:52,360 Speaker 1: so yeah, I mean they are running the board. We 637 00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:54,480 Speaker 1: don't live in a monoculture, right, and so there's no 638 00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:59,400 Speaker 1: one there's no one winner at any given point in time. 639 00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:02,960 Speaker 1: But I think that the trend lines are trending towards 640 00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:05,960 Speaker 1: them and have been for a while, much longer than 641 00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:09,600 Speaker 1: we've been comfortable or willing to admit. And I think 642 00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:12,160 Speaker 1: they have a lot of momentum in trajectory on their side. 643 00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:16,040 Speaker 1: That said, trends change really quickly, like I'm wearing baggy 644 00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:19,040 Speaker 1: pants again, you know what I mean? And like side 645 00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:23,040 Speaker 1: eye people and skinny jeans, so like check a picture 646 00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:26,839 Speaker 1: of me from five years ago. It's like who knew 647 00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:30,520 Speaker 1: that was? Trends can change really really quickly, but not 648 00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:36,520 Speaker 1: on accident. Like we need to start investing way more 649 00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:42,520 Speaker 1: cash into these cult into culture makers, into platforms beyond 650 00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:46,720 Speaker 1: TikTok and Instagram. We need to be investing in podcasters 651 00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:48,560 Speaker 1: like you, like Twig and Jenkins. We need to be 652 00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:51,200 Speaker 1: making sure that we're all appearing on each other's shows, 653 00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:54,040 Speaker 1: that we're all representing and digging each other up, that 654 00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:57,320 Speaker 1: we're working on big projects together, that we're paying attention, 655 00:37:57,640 --> 00:38:01,759 Speaker 1: like getting rid of the like hold my nose and 656 00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:06,799 Speaker 1: be sanctimonious and uppity about other about what they've done 657 00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:11,960 Speaker 1: on the right, like if any I don't care if 658 00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:18,080 Speaker 1: a podcast has seven hundred subscribers, Every single elected official, 659 00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:22,880 Speaker 1: every single person that cares about anything to do with 660 00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:26,600 Speaker 1: making the world a better place should be doing two 661 00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:29,359 Speaker 1: three hours of podcast time a week. Like, if you're 662 00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:33,239 Speaker 1: a senator, there is someone in your state that has 663 00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:35,759 Speaker 1: a podcast about what happens at the grocery store, I 664 00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:38,080 Speaker 1: want you on it. Like, what are you doing, baby, 665 00:38:38,719 --> 00:38:41,160 Speaker 1: You're in call time trying to raise all this cash? 666 00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:45,240 Speaker 1: Do two to three hours of podcast time per week? 667 00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:47,560 Speaker 1: Don't want to hear about it? TIK, don't pixt me, 668 00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:53,000 Speaker 1: don't DM me in October asking for some shit. I 669 00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:55,360 Speaker 1: don't want to hear it, you know what I mean? Like, 670 00:38:55,560 --> 00:38:58,439 Speaker 1: none of that dig the well before you're thirsty. It's 671 00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:03,680 Speaker 1: really basic, and so like all of that has to happen. 672 00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:06,719 Speaker 1: I don't know, you know who's doing it. There should 673 00:39:06,719 --> 00:39:09,040 Speaker 1: be a podcast studio in the DNC building. The whole 674 00:39:09,080 --> 00:39:11,200 Speaker 1: thing should be turned into a content studio. You don't 675 00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:14,680 Speaker 1: know what they're doing over there. It's like we're so 676 00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:17,480 Speaker 1: far behind, but now it's just about our cat like 677 00:39:17,560 --> 00:39:20,640 Speaker 1: it can change. We will, of course have trajectory. Again, 678 00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:23,640 Speaker 1: these are fads, These are things that go in and 679 00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:27,040 Speaker 1: out of fashion. But again, you have to build it. 680 00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:30,160 Speaker 1: You have to take advantage of the opportunities that exist 681 00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:34,000 Speaker 1: and invest in talent and invest in people who want 682 00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:35,560 Speaker 1: to participate in this infrastructure. 683 00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:44,560 Speaker 2: Got a story about an interesting thing in tech. I 684 00:39:44,680 --> 00:39:46,480 Speaker 2: just want to say hi. You can reach us that 685 00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:49,280 Speaker 2: hello at tegody dot com. You can also find transcripts 686 00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:51,719 Speaker 2: for today's episode at tengody dot com. There Are No 687 00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:53,879 Speaker 2: Girls on the Internet was created by me, which It's had. 688 00:39:54,239 --> 00:39:57,640 Speaker 2: It's a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed creative Jonathan Stricklet 689 00:39:57,680 --> 00:40:00,440 Speaker 2: as our executive producer. Tari Harrison is our pretty and 690 00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:04,239 Speaker 2: sound engineer. Michael Amado is our contributing producer. I'm your host, 691 00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:07,080 Speaker 2: Bridget Todd. If you want to help us grow, rate 692 00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:07,680 Speaker 2: and review. 693 00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:08,640 Speaker 3: Us on Apple Podcasts. 694 00:40:09,320 --> 00:40:12,160 Speaker 2: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, check out the iHeartRadio app, 695 00:40:12,160 --> 00:40:24,759 Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.