1 00:00:05,280 --> 00:00:08,600 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome back to the Psychology of Your Twenties, 2 00:00:09,160 --> 00:00:11,400 Speaker 1: the podcast whereby we talk through some of the big 3 00:00:11,480 --> 00:00:14,560 Speaker 1: changes and transitions of our twenties and what they mean 4 00:00:14,720 --> 00:00:24,480 Speaker 1: for our psychology. Okay, this week we're talking about narcissism 5 00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:27,640 Speaker 1: and the narcissist. You know, what better week to kind 6 00:00:27,640 --> 00:00:31,200 Speaker 1: of talk about this. My ex boyfriend popped up to 7 00:00:31,240 --> 00:00:35,800 Speaker 1: me in case anyone was interested, So I was like, Wow, 8 00:00:35,800 --> 00:00:37,480 Speaker 1: that kind of reminds me of a topic I haven't 9 00:00:37,520 --> 00:00:40,519 Speaker 1: covered yet. What better way to kind of take some 10 00:00:40,680 --> 00:00:43,160 Speaker 1: inspiration from my own life. Let him know him still 11 00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:48,600 Speaker 1: thinking about him, No old jokes aside. I have really 12 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:50,280 Speaker 1: wanted to cover this for a while. I think it's 13 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:53,840 Speaker 1: a really interesting personality disorder, and a lot of the 14 00:00:53,840 --> 00:00:56,360 Speaker 1: time on this show we don't really discuss I think 15 00:00:56,920 --> 00:01:00,520 Speaker 1: clinical disorders or pathological disorders. It's more like a broader 16 00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:04,840 Speaker 1: discussion of things with I think some tenuous links to 17 00:01:04,880 --> 00:01:07,559 Speaker 1: psychology and kind of jumping into it. But I really 18 00:01:07,560 --> 00:01:11,480 Speaker 1: wanted to discuss the psychology of narcissism because I think 19 00:01:11,520 --> 00:01:15,520 Speaker 1: that it's become a term used very frequently. It's one 20 00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:19,280 Speaker 1: of those crossovers between pop culture and psychology. That's we're 21 00:01:19,280 --> 00:01:23,160 Speaker 1: seeing a lot more of these days. Another example is 22 00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:26,600 Speaker 1: like gaslighting, People use that all the time, or saying 23 00:01:26,600 --> 00:01:30,720 Speaker 1: that someone is a narcissist is obviously at a pretty 24 00:01:30,760 --> 00:01:33,200 Speaker 1: big one, but I do think we all know someone 25 00:01:33,200 --> 00:01:36,920 Speaker 1: who's a narcissist. Just take a moment think about the 26 00:01:36,920 --> 00:01:42,800 Speaker 1: people in your life. Maybe self diag knows them. Maybe 27 00:01:42,800 --> 00:01:44,920 Speaker 1: you've even had thoughts that you are a narcissist. And 28 00:01:44,959 --> 00:01:47,480 Speaker 1: if you have no fear, because that probably means that 29 00:01:47,520 --> 00:01:49,760 Speaker 1: you're not, which we're going to discuss in this episode. 30 00:01:50,480 --> 00:01:53,920 Speaker 1: I think in your twenties, you are very likely to 31 00:01:54,040 --> 00:01:56,640 Speaker 1: encounter kind of a new breed of person as our 32 00:01:56,680 --> 00:02:00,600 Speaker 1: identities become more developed, someone who's egos a little bit 33 00:02:00,640 --> 00:02:03,640 Speaker 1: too big for their boots to hold. So if these 34 00:02:03,640 --> 00:02:08,200 Speaker 1: people exist and we're likely to encounter them, and you know, now, 35 00:02:08,200 --> 00:02:10,360 Speaker 1: twenties is probably the first time we really meet someone 36 00:02:10,440 --> 00:02:12,640 Speaker 1: that's like this and we're able to see that that's abnormal. 37 00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:15,640 Speaker 1: How do we have relationships with these people? How do 38 00:02:15,680 --> 00:02:18,519 Speaker 1: we interact with them, how do we work with them, 39 00:02:18,639 --> 00:02:21,919 Speaker 1: how do we date them? I also really wanted to 40 00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:25,560 Speaker 1: explore some of the misconceptions around narcissism, like I said, 41 00:02:25,600 --> 00:02:27,920 Speaker 1: it is such a popularized term, but how often do 42 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:31,960 Speaker 1: we just use it quite flippantly without really knowing what 43 00:02:32,080 --> 00:02:35,760 Speaker 1: it actually means and whether someone actually is a narcissist, 44 00:02:35,760 --> 00:02:38,120 Speaker 1: whether we can call them that. So we're going to 45 00:02:38,160 --> 00:02:41,680 Speaker 1: discuss also some of the clinical implications of narcissism. So 46 00:02:42,160 --> 00:02:45,920 Speaker 1: where does it come from, this discussion that it's in 47 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:51,359 Speaker 1: every corner of psychology. Is narcissism nature or nurture? Yeah, 48 00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:53,520 Speaker 1: that's a huge debate that's been raised for a long time, 49 00:02:53,840 --> 00:02:56,799 Speaker 1: and I don't think psychology is coming any closer to 50 00:02:57,080 --> 00:03:00,280 Speaker 1: finding a real answer for that. Another big question is, 51 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:03,240 Speaker 1: you know, does narcissism have a cure and should we 52 00:03:03,280 --> 00:03:10,520 Speaker 1: deal with it? Well, there we go, brief intermission, bless me. 53 00:03:10,760 --> 00:03:14,440 Speaker 1: Anyhow does narcissism have a cure? And should we deal 54 00:03:14,480 --> 00:03:17,560 Speaker 1: with it as a mental disorder, perhaps a condition, rather 55 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:22,000 Speaker 1: than just seeing it as maybe a fault of someone's character. Yeah, 56 00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:23,760 Speaker 1: just some really big questions. But I think on a 57 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:27,239 Speaker 1: more personal note, we're going to discuss narcissism in our 58 00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:29,760 Speaker 1: own lives. What it means for someone to be a narcissist, 59 00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:32,760 Speaker 1: how they operate their behaviors, what it's like to date 60 00:03:32,800 --> 00:03:34,920 Speaker 1: someone who's a narcissist, what it's like to be around 61 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:38,040 Speaker 1: people who are narcissist, and how to kind of escape 62 00:03:38,680 --> 00:03:42,480 Speaker 1: the manipulation in the charisma of a narcissist. And don't worry, 63 00:03:42,640 --> 00:03:45,480 Speaker 1: I do get the irony. I think it's kind of funny. 64 00:03:45,520 --> 00:03:48,640 Speaker 1: Like here I am, you know, making my own podcast, 65 00:03:48,680 --> 00:03:50,920 Speaker 1: like listening to the sound of my voice, and the 66 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:56,160 Speaker 1: episode is on narcissism. But maybe I'll I don't know. 67 00:03:56,200 --> 00:03:58,760 Speaker 1: I don't think I'm a narcissist, but maybe someone will 68 00:03:58,760 --> 00:04:02,280 Speaker 1: think I am after listening to some of these criteria. 69 00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:05,000 Speaker 1: So buckle in because I've got a lot of energy today. 70 00:04:05,720 --> 00:04:09,240 Speaker 1: Like I said, it's been a very complicated week, and 71 00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:11,800 Speaker 1: this is a topic I really want to dig into, 72 00:04:11,840 --> 00:04:17,400 Speaker 1: so let's do it. So narcissism is extreme self involvement 73 00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:20,400 Speaker 1: to the degree that it makes a person ignore the 74 00:04:20,440 --> 00:04:24,320 Speaker 1: needs of those around them. So while everyone you know 75 00:04:24,480 --> 00:04:28,719 Speaker 1: may show occasional narcissistic behavior, because as my good friend 76 00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:32,160 Speaker 1: Kate says, everyone is the center of their own universe, 77 00:04:32,320 --> 00:04:35,680 Speaker 1: so it makes sense that sometimes you have self involvement. 78 00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:42,280 Speaker 1: But true narcissists they will frequently discard others feelings and 79 00:04:42,440 --> 00:04:44,640 Speaker 1: don't even seem to be aware of them, So they 80 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:47,120 Speaker 1: also just do not understand the effect that their behavior 81 00:04:47,200 --> 00:04:49,920 Speaker 1: has on other people, so they're unable to comprehend how 82 00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:53,800 Speaker 1: their own self involved behaviors have first and second order consequences. 83 00:04:54,839 --> 00:05:01,479 Speaker 1: There are no physical blood tests, MRIs GP appointments, or 84 00:05:01,760 --> 00:05:06,680 Speaker 1: you know, exact biological determinations that can identify a narcissist. 85 00:05:06,760 --> 00:05:10,320 Speaker 1: Even therapists do just have to go on observations of 86 00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:12,680 Speaker 1: the behavior and the attitude that a person presents. There's 87 00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:15,920 Speaker 1: no like quiz like you might see people like posting 88 00:05:15,920 --> 00:05:17,760 Speaker 1: things or like BuzzFeed quiz is are like are you 89 00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:22,040 Speaker 1: a narcissist? But that's not how it works. They basically 90 00:05:22,080 --> 00:05:25,240 Speaker 1: have to just base what they're seeing in a person 91 00:05:25,320 --> 00:05:28,600 Speaker 1: off of the DSM criteria. And some of these criteria 92 00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:33,479 Speaker 1: include superiority and entitlement, which we've talked about, So someone 93 00:05:33,560 --> 00:05:35,800 Speaker 1: feeling like they deserve anything they would like and just 94 00:05:35,880 --> 00:05:38,520 Speaker 1: go to any means to obtain that, regardless of who 95 00:05:38,520 --> 00:05:41,640 Speaker 1: they step on. For a narcissist, like there is no 96 00:05:41,720 --> 00:05:45,840 Speaker 1: such thing as being wrong or feeling inferior. This also 97 00:05:45,920 --> 00:05:48,120 Speaker 1: kind of goes along with an exaggerated need for attention 98 00:05:48,120 --> 00:05:51,520 Speaker 1: and validation, as well as like this need to control 99 00:05:52,160 --> 00:05:56,200 Speaker 1: their relationships as well as their work and their own lives. 100 00:05:56,920 --> 00:06:01,159 Speaker 1: And I think the three biggest indicators though that are like, firstly, 101 00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:04,320 Speaker 1: you know, massive red flags in any relationship but also 102 00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:07,160 Speaker 1: cause a lot of interpersonal conflict and difficulty. And then 103 00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:10,680 Speaker 1: these three huge red flags related to narcissism and how 104 00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:14,000 Speaker 1: it presents in people. These are a lack of boundaries, 105 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:18,240 Speaker 1: lack of responsibility for their own actions. So someone who 106 00:06:18,320 --> 00:06:21,520 Speaker 1: is a narcissist, they always blame outside events or people 107 00:06:21,680 --> 00:06:25,279 Speaker 1: or emotions for their own actions, which, oh my god, 108 00:06:25,320 --> 00:06:27,559 Speaker 1: I can relate to. That was just like this person 109 00:06:27,600 --> 00:06:30,160 Speaker 1: I used to date, and any time I'd be like, oh, 110 00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:32,479 Speaker 1: you know, probably shouldn't have treated me like that, probably 111 00:06:32,520 --> 00:06:35,560 Speaker 1: shouldn't have said that, didn't didn't really appreciate that. They'd 112 00:06:35,600 --> 00:06:37,840 Speaker 1: be like, oh, you know, it's just because of this 113 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:40,720 Speaker 1: that's happened, And it's because I've because I'm suffering, it's 114 00:06:40,720 --> 00:06:43,000 Speaker 1: because of my emotions, Like, it has nothing to do 115 00:06:43,080 --> 00:06:45,560 Speaker 1: with you, has nothing to do with me not caring 116 00:06:45,600 --> 00:06:48,880 Speaker 1: about you, it has everything to do with external events. 117 00:06:49,720 --> 00:06:52,000 Speaker 1: And finally, a big red flag and a big thing 118 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:57,080 Speaker 1: that narcissists often show is just a general lack of empathy. Yeah, 119 00:06:57,160 --> 00:07:00,160 Speaker 1: Like I said, like the lack of responsibility was a big, 120 00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:02,640 Speaker 1: big one for me that I think I saw in 121 00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:04,839 Speaker 1: this person that I used to date, you know, anytime 122 00:07:04,880 --> 00:07:06,840 Speaker 1: they did something wrong and we're confronted with this, they 123 00:07:06,920 --> 00:07:10,200 Speaker 1: could never see the hurt that that would cause, and 124 00:07:10,240 --> 00:07:14,040 Speaker 1: would constantly blame these external events, particularly like UNI and 125 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:18,440 Speaker 1: stress and housing situation, so they just were unable to 126 00:07:18,480 --> 00:07:21,480 Speaker 1: be held accountable for how they treated others. There was 127 00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:25,080 Speaker 1: also always like an urgency to make things right so 128 00:07:25,120 --> 00:07:30,040 Speaker 1: that they could redeem themselves as the good guy, rather 129 00:07:30,080 --> 00:07:33,640 Speaker 1: than like actually taking real and honest responsibility for their actions. 130 00:07:34,880 --> 00:07:37,320 Speaker 1: But even in those situations, he only really seemed aware 131 00:07:37,360 --> 00:07:42,040 Speaker 1: of his own emotions in terms of, like he's upset me. 132 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:44,680 Speaker 1: It's not that he wants me to feel better, it's 133 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:46,400 Speaker 1: that he doesn't want to feel bad about it anymore. 134 00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:51,120 Speaker 1: And I think that's a big common misconception about narcissism, 135 00:07:51,320 --> 00:07:54,400 Speaker 1: that they can't feel emotions. They can, they can feel emotions, 136 00:07:54,880 --> 00:07:57,720 Speaker 1: but they can't see those same emotions in others. They 137 00:07:57,720 --> 00:08:01,960 Speaker 1: can recognize them, but even that maybe not as much 138 00:08:02,080 --> 00:08:04,239 Speaker 1: as a normal person or someone who was an EmPATH 139 00:08:04,320 --> 00:08:07,600 Speaker 1: could and although they can see emotions and others, they 140 00:08:07,880 --> 00:08:11,320 Speaker 1: can never really comprehend that the intensity that someone is 141 00:08:11,360 --> 00:08:14,720 Speaker 1: feeling an emotion might be the same intensity they would 142 00:08:14,760 --> 00:08:19,880 Speaker 1: feel that emotion, So things like anger, sadness, guilt, grief, 143 00:08:19,920 --> 00:08:21,760 Speaker 1: they can feel all these things, but they're unable to 144 00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:25,440 Speaker 1: connect the emotions they're feeling with the experiences of others. 145 00:08:25,440 --> 00:08:28,200 Speaker 1: This is why they also seem to have really poor 146 00:08:28,240 --> 00:08:32,880 Speaker 1: emotional regulation, you know, large up and downs, falls and 147 00:08:32,960 --> 00:08:36,839 Speaker 1: self esteem and then return to this grandiose sense of self. 148 00:08:37,760 --> 00:08:41,160 Speaker 1: Another big trait is an inability to appreciate how others 149 00:08:41,360 --> 00:08:47,079 Speaker 1: see them, and an obsession with outside perceptions and being 150 00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:50,560 Speaker 1: liked and in people's focus, you know, like calling yourself 151 00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:54,360 Speaker 1: a big name for example, like constantly feeling the need 152 00:08:54,480 --> 00:08:58,160 Speaker 1: to be important, starting new projects that you think will 153 00:08:58,160 --> 00:09:02,120 Speaker 1: make others like you. So they often idealize others that 154 00:09:02,240 --> 00:09:05,440 Speaker 1: represent perfection, which is kind of followed by devaluing that 155 00:09:05,559 --> 00:09:08,560 Speaker 1: very person when they are perceived to have failed them. So, 156 00:09:09,440 --> 00:09:12,480 Speaker 1: you know, you might have someone that this anarcissists might 157 00:09:12,480 --> 00:09:16,360 Speaker 1: have someone they really look up to, and their opinion 158 00:09:16,440 --> 00:09:19,000 Speaker 1: is just seemed so so important. In the obsession of it, 159 00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:22,280 Speaker 1: whether they like them, trying to become closer to them. 160 00:09:22,679 --> 00:09:25,520 Speaker 1: But then they're also highly dismissive of that person because 161 00:09:25,920 --> 00:09:28,160 Speaker 1: if they can't live up to the expectations they feel 162 00:09:28,200 --> 00:09:30,800 Speaker 1: that person might have for them, it's a lot easier 163 00:09:30,920 --> 00:09:35,000 Speaker 1: to knock that person down in your own mind than 164 00:09:35,520 --> 00:09:40,160 Speaker 1: address your own ego. Anyhow, well, all this paints a 165 00:09:40,280 --> 00:09:44,080 Speaker 1: very flattering picture. I think it's fairly obvious how so 166 00:09:44,120 --> 00:09:46,760 Speaker 1: many of these traits would make friendships and relationships with 167 00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:50,280 Speaker 1: these kinds of people fairly difficult. I think it's hard 168 00:09:50,640 --> 00:09:54,280 Speaker 1: to be emotionally attached to someone who is incapable of 169 00:09:54,280 --> 00:09:57,600 Speaker 1: ever relating to how you feel, and clinically as well 170 00:09:57,640 --> 00:10:01,280 Speaker 1: as chronically, they just don't care. It's not even like 171 00:10:01,360 --> 00:10:03,760 Speaker 1: they have any control over it. It's just like the 172 00:10:04,120 --> 00:10:09,199 Speaker 1: path your pathological apathy, even to those that they you 173 00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:11,840 Speaker 1: would think that they would love, and they're just so 174 00:10:11,920 --> 00:10:14,640 Speaker 1: focused on themselves that they cannot really see their partner 175 00:10:14,679 --> 00:10:16,800 Speaker 1: as a separate person. They tend to only see their 176 00:10:16,840 --> 00:10:19,880 Speaker 1: partner in terms of how they feel their needs or 177 00:10:19,920 --> 00:10:22,960 Speaker 1: fail to feel their needs. And on the other side 178 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:26,880 Speaker 1: of the coin, I think often from like doing some research, 179 00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:29,400 Speaker 1: and like personal experience and just talking to people who've 180 00:10:29,440 --> 00:10:32,480 Speaker 1: had this experience, the dynamics often play out a lot 181 00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:35,840 Speaker 1: more insidiously, So you might talk about an issue and 182 00:10:35,920 --> 00:10:38,880 Speaker 1: your partner relates it immediately to something that happened to them, 183 00:10:38,960 --> 00:10:42,480 Speaker 1: and your story kind of fades as THEIRS takeover, or 184 00:10:42,520 --> 00:10:44,599 Speaker 1: you know, you and your partner or your boyfriend or 185 00:10:44,600 --> 00:10:47,800 Speaker 1: your girlfriend disagree and somehow you end up, you know, 186 00:10:47,840 --> 00:10:51,160 Speaker 1: second guessing yourself as if kind of descent will threaten 187 00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:54,160 Speaker 1: their whole well being. So you don't want to You 188 00:10:54,200 --> 00:10:55,560 Speaker 1: don't want to do that. You don't want to have 189 00:10:55,600 --> 00:10:58,959 Speaker 1: to face what happens when you tell them they're wrong, 190 00:10:59,480 --> 00:11:02,160 Speaker 1: and any needs you communicate that aren't in line with 191 00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:04,320 Speaker 1: THEIRS may just be thrown back at you as a 192 00:11:04,400 --> 00:11:07,480 Speaker 1: character floor of yourself or is something that's wrong with you. 193 00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:10,839 Speaker 1: These are just like a few examples of what a 194 00:11:10,920 --> 00:11:15,160 Speaker 1: relationship with a narcissist might look like, and I think 195 00:11:16,040 --> 00:11:19,320 Speaker 1: really importantly, falling in love can put you off balance, 196 00:11:19,920 --> 00:11:23,840 Speaker 1: but standing in a love that is that you trust, 197 00:11:24,679 --> 00:11:27,920 Speaker 1: and standing in a love when you know you're cad 198 00:11:27,960 --> 00:11:31,959 Speaker 1: about that firmly grounds you and an absolutely essential agreement 199 00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:34,520 Speaker 1: of any good relationship I think is like emotional safety, 200 00:11:34,960 --> 00:11:37,960 Speaker 1: Like you need to feel safe to be your authentic 201 00:11:38,600 --> 00:11:41,520 Speaker 1: self and to be happy. But it's very difficult to 202 00:11:41,720 --> 00:11:45,440 Speaker 1: be yourself and to feel connected to yourself when you 203 00:11:45,520 --> 00:11:48,360 Speaker 1: have such an emotionally volatile partner, which might be the 204 00:11:48,400 --> 00:11:52,600 Speaker 1: case with a narcissist. I think another really important thing, 205 00:11:52,640 --> 00:11:54,640 Speaker 1: and I read this really interesting article that was talking 206 00:11:54,679 --> 00:11:58,600 Speaker 1: about this, relationships with a person who has narcissistic traits 207 00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:02,680 Speaker 1: can and survive. They are possible if you, as the partner, 208 00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:07,000 Speaker 1: have good self esteem, You have strong boundaries, resources in 209 00:12:07,040 --> 00:12:11,120 Speaker 1: particularly that are valued by the narcissist patience and even 210 00:12:11,120 --> 00:12:14,600 Speaker 1: tempered personality, and also a reason to stay with them 211 00:12:15,160 --> 00:12:20,560 Speaker 1: throughout all these downfalls and faults. And I think over 212 00:12:20,600 --> 00:12:23,360 Speaker 1: time this sort of self esteem that you need to have, 213 00:12:23,520 --> 00:12:27,320 Speaker 1: it will acquire positive and good and strong reinforcement from 214 00:12:27,360 --> 00:12:30,400 Speaker 1: other parts of your life like work and friends, in 215 00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:33,000 Speaker 1: order to be maintained and to ensure that your relationship 216 00:12:33,040 --> 00:12:37,920 Speaker 1: with that kind of energy sucking individual can continue and 217 00:12:38,080 --> 00:12:42,840 Speaker 1: that reason to stay. I think people are attracted to 218 00:12:42,920 --> 00:12:47,480 Speaker 1: different things and confidence, motivation, power, attention, all of which 219 00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:52,920 Speaker 1: narcissistic partners can provide, and it can offer motivation to 220 00:12:53,040 --> 00:12:55,560 Speaker 1: someone who might be with a narcissistic partner in the 221 00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:58,520 Speaker 1: short term and the long term to stick around. But 222 00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:00,720 Speaker 1: of course it can be volatile, and it's not like 223 00:13:00,760 --> 00:13:02,760 Speaker 1: you can just tell that person to go to therapy 224 00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:07,080 Speaker 1: because it's unlikely they will believe that anything is wrong, 225 00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:10,560 Speaker 1: So it can become pretty one sided or dare we 226 00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:14,000 Speaker 1: say toxic, although I'm not a big fan of that word, 227 00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:18,640 Speaker 1: and I think a really good hallmark that I kind 228 00:13:18,640 --> 00:13:22,400 Speaker 1: of saw in my own relationship for realizing that things 229 00:13:22,400 --> 00:13:25,240 Speaker 1: aren't going right, that the relationship is one sided, that 230 00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:29,120 Speaker 1: it isn't healthy, is that if you wouldn't feel comfortable 231 00:13:29,320 --> 00:13:33,160 Speaker 1: telling your friends and family how someone treats you or 232 00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:35,800 Speaker 1: the things that they say to you, you probably shouldn't 233 00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:39,520 Speaker 1: be with them if their narcissistic traits are that pronounced. 234 00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:44,520 Speaker 1: So if you wouldn't feel comfortable telling, you know, your 235 00:13:44,559 --> 00:13:48,560 Speaker 1: best friend, oh, you know, I was really upset about this, 236 00:13:48,640 --> 00:13:52,400 Speaker 1: and he just said like, oh, he related it back 237 00:13:52,440 --> 00:13:54,719 Speaker 1: to himself and you know how hard his life is, 238 00:13:54,920 --> 00:13:57,440 Speaker 1: or taught me I was overreacting, or that the reason 239 00:13:57,520 --> 00:14:00,800 Speaker 1: I was sad was incorrect. If you wouldn't feel comfortable 240 00:14:00,880 --> 00:14:04,720 Speaker 1: telling your friend that your emotions or your needs were neglected, 241 00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:07,319 Speaker 1: then it's probably not something you should tolerate. And that's 242 00:14:07,320 --> 00:14:09,080 Speaker 1: what I found where I was like, oh, I don't 243 00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:12,240 Speaker 1: feel comfortable in telling my friends the extent to which 244 00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:14,360 Speaker 1: some of these things have been said to me or 245 00:14:14,640 --> 00:14:16,680 Speaker 1: how I'm being treated, because I know that they wouldn't 246 00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:19,160 Speaker 1: like him anymore and I want them to like him. 247 00:14:19,240 --> 00:14:22,760 Speaker 1: So it kind of became this like almost like a 248 00:14:23,520 --> 00:14:26,400 Speaker 1: like a bit of a play, I don't know, like 249 00:14:26,680 --> 00:14:29,640 Speaker 1: a like like living two lives like the one where 250 00:14:29,680 --> 00:14:32,040 Speaker 1: I was with this person who I loved, but who 251 00:14:32,120 --> 00:14:34,960 Speaker 1: had all these traits of like excessive need for attention, 252 00:14:35,040 --> 00:14:38,720 Speaker 1: a sense of self entitlement, just an excessive need to 253 00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:41,760 Speaker 1: be praised by others, to be liked by others. And 254 00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:43,520 Speaker 1: then I had my own life where I was trying 255 00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:45,560 Speaker 1: to just like do my own thing and be happy 256 00:14:45,560 --> 00:14:48,360 Speaker 1: and healthy and myself. I think this is a good 257 00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:50,720 Speaker 1: time to kind of jump into the clinical underpinnings of 258 00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:54,440 Speaker 1: narcissism before we kind of talk more about how to 259 00:14:54,440 --> 00:15:00,160 Speaker 1: set boundaries with these types of people. So narcissism has 260 00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:03,400 Speaker 1: been around as long as you know humanity has been around, really, 261 00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:06,440 Speaker 1: and the term itself comes from the story of Narcissus 262 00:15:06,520 --> 00:15:09,800 Speaker 1: in Greek mythology. Essentially, if you haven't heard the story, 263 00:15:09,800 --> 00:15:12,240 Speaker 1: but I'm pretty sure it's it's a common one, but 264 00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:14,720 Speaker 1: I'll recap it and I'll bring some some classics into 265 00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:18,520 Speaker 1: this psychology podcast. So Narcissis is the story of a 266 00:15:18,520 --> 00:15:21,760 Speaker 1: Greek hunter who is the son of a river god Cephasis, 267 00:15:21,880 --> 00:15:24,760 Speaker 1: and a nymph, and he's very beautiful blah blah blah, 268 00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:29,360 Speaker 1: and he rejects this really beautiful nymph called Echo, and 269 00:15:29,520 --> 00:15:33,640 Speaker 1: she walks around the forest, you know, in lamenting, mourning him. 270 00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:35,360 Speaker 1: And that's where the word echo comes from, you know, 271 00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:37,440 Speaker 1: until all that's heard of their voices is an echo. 272 00:15:38,160 --> 00:15:40,520 Speaker 1: And as punishment for his rejection of her, the god 273 00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:44,680 Speaker 1: of retribution and revenge, Nemesis, leads him to a pool 274 00:15:44,840 --> 00:15:48,000 Speaker 1: or a pond where he is forced to see his reflection, 275 00:15:48,040 --> 00:15:51,400 Speaker 1: and Nemesis causes him to fall in love with this reflection, 276 00:15:52,080 --> 00:15:54,760 Speaker 1: and although he doesn't really realize in the beginning that 277 00:15:54,880 --> 00:15:57,040 Speaker 1: it is just him in the face of the water, 278 00:15:57,520 --> 00:15:59,720 Speaker 1: when he comes to understands it, he falls into a 279 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:03,280 Speaker 1: bear that his love cannot materialize, that he could never 280 00:16:04,680 --> 00:16:06,840 Speaker 1: be in love with another person as much as he 281 00:16:06,880 --> 00:16:10,640 Speaker 1: loves himself and he commits suicide. So hopefully we see 282 00:16:10,640 --> 00:16:14,280 Speaker 1: the links between modern day clinical narcissism and this kind 283 00:16:14,280 --> 00:16:17,800 Speaker 1: of story of self love and indulgence. But the formal 284 00:16:17,880 --> 00:16:21,720 Speaker 1: diagnosis kind of began with Freud and different schools of psychology. 285 00:16:22,080 --> 00:16:24,760 Speaker 1: They all kind of accept slightly different understandings of the 286 00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:29,400 Speaker 1: pathology of this personality disorder and where it comes from, 287 00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:33,240 Speaker 1: if treatment is possible, and the details of what it 288 00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:37,520 Speaker 1: really means. Firstly, let's clear this up. Narcissism it is 289 00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:40,480 Speaker 1: a disorder, as would as we would classify it like 290 00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:43,680 Speaker 1: a disorder in terms that it causes impairment. It's not normal, 291 00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:46,760 Speaker 1: it's abnormal. It's a personality disorder, and it kind of 292 00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:50,720 Speaker 1: goes without saying I would hope that diagnosable narcissism is 293 00:16:50,840 --> 00:16:53,760 Speaker 1: is far more complex and often more dangerous than just 294 00:16:53,880 --> 00:16:58,120 Speaker 1: mere selfish or selfishness or vanity. So we've already discussed 295 00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:02,440 Speaker 1: some of the characteristics criteria of having narcissistic personality. We've 296 00:17:02,840 --> 00:17:05,760 Speaker 1: discussed that grandiose sense of self importance, the need for 297 00:17:05,920 --> 00:17:11,239 Speaker 1: excessive admiration, entitlement, being interpersonally exploit alivilist, goes on If 298 00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:13,280 Speaker 1: you want to read it, you can read it in 299 00:17:13,320 --> 00:17:16,679 Speaker 1: the DSM. But there's another core element of narcissism that 300 00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:19,840 Speaker 1: must be present for a disorder to be identified. So 301 00:17:19,880 --> 00:17:23,719 Speaker 1: the essential features of any personality disorder are impairments in 302 00:17:24,359 --> 00:17:28,919 Speaker 1: self and interpersonal functioning. This is why some people have 303 00:17:29,080 --> 00:17:32,480 Speaker 1: argued that figures like Donald Trump, for example, can't be 304 00:17:32,560 --> 00:17:36,119 Speaker 1: labeled narcissist, even though it seems quite possible because he 305 00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:39,080 Speaker 1: doesn't seem overly impaired. You know, he became president. That 306 00:17:39,160 --> 00:17:42,119 Speaker 1: doesn't show an inability to hold down a job or 307 00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:45,320 Speaker 1: a lack of direction. And there are some key areas 308 00:17:45,359 --> 00:17:50,600 Speaker 1: where impairment is more likely, for example, impairments in self functioning, 309 00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:55,119 Speaker 1: especially in terms of self identity, and huge fluctuations in 310 00:17:55,160 --> 00:17:59,919 Speaker 1: self esteem and self direction. A narcissist someone who is 311 00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:03,919 Speaker 1: diagnosed as a narcissist may be unable to set goals 312 00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:07,160 Speaker 1: that are realistic or separate their goals from the approval 313 00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:11,000 Speaker 1: of others, and their personal standards are often unreasonably high 314 00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:14,480 Speaker 1: in order to maintain the idea that they are exceptional, 315 00:18:14,560 --> 00:18:17,560 Speaker 1: which can actually have the inverse effect of making them 316 00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:21,280 Speaker 1: quite unimpressive because the fallout from when they can't meet 317 00:18:21,320 --> 00:18:24,880 Speaker 1: excessive goals can be so dramatic. The other area where 318 00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:28,440 Speaker 1: impairment is common as an interpersonal functioning, specifically in terms 319 00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:33,200 Speaker 1: of intimacy. We've already talked about this, but relationships between 320 00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:37,040 Speaker 1: a narcissist and a regular person can be largely superficial 321 00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:40,520 Speaker 1: because they exist to serve their self esteem. Therefore, like 322 00:18:40,560 --> 00:18:43,800 Speaker 1: a person who is narcissistic, might experience dysfunction in their 323 00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:47,920 Speaker 1: inability to maintain a personal relationship or a long term friendship. 324 00:18:48,520 --> 00:18:51,360 Speaker 1: And other areas of impairment also relate to their excessive 325 00:18:51,359 --> 00:18:54,879 Speaker 1: attempts to attract and focus attention on themselves, and this 326 00:18:54,920 --> 00:18:58,639 Speaker 1: can cause dysfunction. For example, in a classroom amongst peers 327 00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:01,359 Speaker 1: or at work, you've got someone who always needs the 328 00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:02,880 Speaker 1: attention on them. They're not going to be a very 329 00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:05,960 Speaker 1: productive coworker. They're probably going to piss a lot of 330 00:19:05,960 --> 00:19:07,639 Speaker 1: people off, come off as being a bit of a 331 00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:10,639 Speaker 1: brown noser, and that can mean that it's harder for 332 00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:12,640 Speaker 1: them to get ahead actually at the end of the day, 333 00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:15,520 Speaker 1: or it's harder for them to be liked and to 334 00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:19,040 Speaker 1: be accepted in a workplace. There is once more caveat 335 00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:22,879 Speaker 1: that I found really interesting, So maybe I should explain this. 336 00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:24,959 Speaker 1: I think I've kind of already done it. But essentially, 337 00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:28,560 Speaker 1: if you're a psychologist or a psychiatrist and you have 338 00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:31,800 Speaker 1: someone come in, firstly, it's highly unlikely that they're going 339 00:19:31,840 --> 00:19:35,520 Speaker 1: to label themselves as a narcissist or seek help because 340 00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:38,879 Speaker 1: of their express traits that may be due to narcissism. 341 00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:41,000 Speaker 1: It's very unlikely that someone is going to come in 342 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:42,560 Speaker 1: and say, I'm a narcissist and I think this is 343 00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:45,080 Speaker 1: a problem. They're probably going to be coming in for 344 00:19:45,320 --> 00:19:48,840 Speaker 1: some other form of impairment, maybe family therapy. Maybe they've 345 00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:51,720 Speaker 1: been recommended by their workplace or by their partner. But 346 00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:53,840 Speaker 1: you talk to this person, you get a sense of 347 00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:56,680 Speaker 1: their character, and if you have a suspicion that they 348 00:19:56,720 --> 00:20:00,480 Speaker 1: may be narcissistic, you apply the criteria that is in 349 00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:03,399 Speaker 1: the DSM, and depending on the disorder you're applying it to, 350 00:20:04,119 --> 00:20:06,800 Speaker 1: a person needs to meet a certain number of set 351 00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:10,919 Speaker 1: criteria to be diagnosed for narcissism. A person needs to 352 00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:14,720 Speaker 1: exhibit only fifty five percent of the identified characteristics to 353 00:20:14,800 --> 00:20:18,359 Speaker 1: be diagnosed with the personality disorder, and this is really 354 00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:22,000 Speaker 1: low for depression or most common anxiety, disorders you have 355 00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:24,919 Speaker 1: to meet I think like it might be like five 356 00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:28,880 Speaker 1: out of seven criteria, and two of those criteria aren't optional, 357 00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:31,320 Speaker 1: so you have to have had those in the past 358 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:36,840 Speaker 1: three to twelve months to be diagnosed. But there is 359 00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:40,200 Speaker 1: one small part of the DSM when it comes to narcissism, 360 00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:44,000 Speaker 1: which says the impairments in personality functioning and the individual's 361 00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:48,439 Speaker 1: personality trade expression are not better understood as normative for 362 00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:53,960 Speaker 1: the individual socio cultural environment. This is really interesting and 363 00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:58,080 Speaker 1: I think really crucial because in some cultures where excessive 364 00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:02,720 Speaker 1: self confidence, a lack of empathy, and interpersonal exploitation are 365 00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:06,280 Speaker 1: coveted or celebrated, a person may not technically be deemed 366 00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:11,080 Speaker 1: a narcissist. For example, in capitalist and competitive societies. An 367 00:21:11,119 --> 00:21:14,240 Speaker 1: argument could be made that there are actually fewer rather 368 00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:17,919 Speaker 1: than more narcissists, because the traits can be explained and 369 00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:23,800 Speaker 1: are accepted within the socio cultural environment. Another thing about 370 00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:26,920 Speaker 1: narcissism is that you can never self diagnose, so if 371 00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:28,960 Speaker 1: you're worried that you might be a narcissist, you're probably 372 00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:32,480 Speaker 1: not one. Narcissists generally lack the kind of empathetic self 373 00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:34,720 Speaker 1: reflection that might make them wonder if they have a 374 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:38,680 Speaker 1: personality disorder, and this is why narcissism is so seldom 375 00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:43,040 Speaker 1: treated and why it's really hard, maybe even impossible, to 376 00:21:43,119 --> 00:21:47,280 Speaker 1: truly quantify how many people have the disorder. So let's 377 00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:49,560 Speaker 1: kind of talk about treatment, because if it is considered 378 00:21:49,560 --> 00:21:53,159 Speaker 1: a disorder and a disruption to our relationships and our functioning, 379 00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:57,160 Speaker 1: we would hope that psychologists have some form of treatment plan. 380 00:21:58,760 --> 00:22:01,840 Speaker 1: Just to put it simply, no, they don't. It's such 381 00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:05,479 Speaker 1: an elusive disorder that there is no medication, no common 382 00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:10,000 Speaker 1: form of CBT or therapy to treat narcissism. One of 383 00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:13,480 Speaker 1: the most common measures that they do use is psychotherapy. 384 00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:17,959 Speaker 1: So psychotherapy is a pretty i would say, common technique 385 00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:21,600 Speaker 1: in psychology or if you go and see a counselor, 386 00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:27,040 Speaker 1: it's basically like, by talking about your problems, you can 387 00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:31,439 Speaker 1: kind of analyze where your behaviors come from unconsciously. So 388 00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:34,760 Speaker 1: psychotherapy can help you, if you are a narcissist, kind 389 00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:37,200 Speaker 1: of learn to relate better with others so your relationships 390 00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:39,960 Speaker 1: are more intimate and rewarding. And it also helps you 391 00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:42,520 Speaker 1: understand the causes of your emotions and what drives you 392 00:22:42,560 --> 00:22:45,880 Speaker 1: to compete to distrust others and perhaps to have that 393 00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:52,240 Speaker 1: weird roller coaster of self esteem and areas of change 394 00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:56,800 Speaker 1: are directed at kind of helping you accept responsibility and 395 00:22:57,000 --> 00:23:01,320 Speaker 1: learning to accept and maintain relationship in collaboration with people 396 00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:05,560 Speaker 1: like your coworkers, or accept your actual competence and potentials 397 00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:09,080 Speaker 1: so that you can tolerate criticisms or failures. It also 398 00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:12,520 Speaker 1: aims to kind of increase a narcissists ability to regulate 399 00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:15,680 Speaker 1: their emotions and their feelings because they can be so volatile, 400 00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:19,240 Speaker 1: and to also understand and tolerate the impact of issues 401 00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:22,399 Speaker 1: related to their self esteem. So this is kind of 402 00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:25,520 Speaker 1: the basis of psychotherapy and treating a narcissist, but it's 403 00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:29,639 Speaker 1: highly ineffective and has really high drop outrates. So not 404 00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:31,680 Speaker 1: only is it hard to get someone who is a 405 00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:34,560 Speaker 1: narcissist to go to therapy, but it's hard to get 406 00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:38,000 Speaker 1: them to stick around. Sometimes it can even work against 407 00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:41,640 Speaker 1: their best interests because so many of those traits that 408 00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:45,160 Speaker 1: we might despise that we see in a narcissist can 409 00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:50,600 Speaker 1: actually make people really successful in business and in their 410 00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:55,440 Speaker 1: careers and negotiating in a lot of areas really, so 411 00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:58,080 Speaker 1: it's still a really rich area of research if you 412 00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:00,480 Speaker 1: feel like hanging around a bunch of narcissists and trying 413 00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:03,680 Speaker 1: to teach them empathy, which is why narcissists are often 414 00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:06,600 Speaker 1: used in a lot of studies around whether empathy is 415 00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:08,840 Speaker 1: nature and nurture and how it can be built in people, 416 00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:13,119 Speaker 1: specifically children. That's kind of a good segue into the 417 00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:17,679 Speaker 1: nature the nurture debate around narcissism, which is such a 418 00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:21,320 Speaker 1: huge topic when it comes to most personality disorders, but 419 00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:24,680 Speaker 1: this one in particular. So the question everyone kind of 420 00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:27,879 Speaker 1: asks is how does a person become a narcissist? Because 421 00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:30,480 Speaker 1: we kind of want to avoid these people from showing up. 422 00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:33,880 Speaker 1: And it's a hotly disputed issue in the world of psychiatry, 423 00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:36,040 Speaker 1: and there's a wealth of theories, no kind of one 424 00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:39,240 Speaker 1: size fits or answer. But the view of this very 425 00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:42,959 Speaker 1: famous psychologist whose speciality is in this area is that 426 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:47,639 Speaker 1: it's probably about twenty five percent constitutional or duty or 427 00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:52,200 Speaker 1: genetics or biological underpinnings, and seventy five percent is external. 428 00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:56,119 Speaker 1: So a narcissist doesn't necessarily come from a dysfunctional family, 429 00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:59,760 Speaker 1: but narcissism can occur because a parent or caretaker wasn't 430 00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:03,399 Speaker 1: able to provide emotional attention, or it could be the 431 00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:06,919 Speaker 1: flip side, a parent provided too much attention and the 432 00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:10,000 Speaker 1: child never learned frustration tolerance. It really depends in the 433 00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:14,399 Speaker 1: same situation can result in different outcomes for different people. 434 00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:18,760 Speaker 1: So contributing environmental factors that a lot of researchers kind 435 00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:24,360 Speaker 1: of found may include childhood abuse or neglect, excessive parental pampering, 436 00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:29,520 Speaker 1: unrealistic expectations from parents, sexual promiscuity. But there's often a 437 00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:32,720 Speaker 1: companies narcissism rather than causing it, and a lot of 438 00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:37,080 Speaker 1: cultural influences. So so far it kind of does seem 439 00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:40,320 Speaker 1: to be very environmental, but some neural models have suggested 440 00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:44,280 Speaker 1: that it is an inherited condition and have this kind 441 00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:47,840 Speaker 1: of explored the idea of a selfish gene that is 442 00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:51,560 Speaker 1: activated by parenting style. So it appears to be more 443 00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:54,480 Speaker 1: of a combination of genetics and environments. So if you 444 00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:58,520 Speaker 1: know a narcissist, as much as their behavior may annoy 445 00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:00,520 Speaker 1: you and hurt you, it's kind of necessary that we 446 00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:03,159 Speaker 1: recognize that it's not really their fault they often have 447 00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:07,920 Speaker 1: like's often something biologically that was there when they were 448 00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:11,760 Speaker 1: born that was then triggered that's created this personality this identity, 449 00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:15,359 Speaker 1: and it's pathological, it's chronic. They can't really do anything 450 00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:17,879 Speaker 1: about it. And I know this account sounds kind of 451 00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:20,320 Speaker 1: bizarre considering how much I've kind of shifted on people 452 00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:22,920 Speaker 1: who have these traits and how terrible they are in relationships, 453 00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:25,280 Speaker 1: blah blah blah blah blah. But it's one of these 454 00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:27,880 Speaker 1: confronting things that we often have to consider when looking 455 00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:32,359 Speaker 1: at personality disorders in particular, is how much is it 456 00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:37,120 Speaker 1: really that person's fault. It's part of their personality, yes, 457 00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:40,320 Speaker 1: but they also have so little control in determining this 458 00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:43,040 Speaker 1: outcome for themselves, and it does, at the end of 459 00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:46,240 Speaker 1: the day, cause them impairment, it can hurt their relationships. 460 00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:50,520 Speaker 1: It's not really a choice for them to have these traits, 461 00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:53,560 Speaker 1: to be a narcissist, to step on people, to not 462 00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:57,639 Speaker 1: have empathy, to be exploitative and need a lot of 463 00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:01,440 Speaker 1: attention and self entitled. But the question is how far 464 00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:04,000 Speaker 1: can we really stretch that logic, because then we can 465 00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:07,800 Speaker 1: kind of extend this it's not your fault claim to 466 00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:12,240 Speaker 1: any element of someone's personality and their flaws. Anyways, a 467 00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:14,440 Speaker 1: little bit of a segue. I think it's just kind 468 00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:17,359 Speaker 1: of interesting to think about that, think about where we 469 00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:20,440 Speaker 1: place personality disorders in terms of our conceptions of right 470 00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:23,720 Speaker 1: and wrong. Whether someone who is a narcissist or a 471 00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:29,120 Speaker 1: psychopath or a sociopath can be seen as bad or 472 00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:32,720 Speaker 1: worse than others, when really they didn't have any say 473 00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:34,720 Speaker 1: in the kind of person they turned out to be, 474 00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:38,120 Speaker 1: the way that we kind of didn't have any say, 475 00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:41,280 Speaker 1: and the way we turned out to be, and perhaps 476 00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:44,760 Speaker 1: our nicer temperaments or those that are more agreeable. Let's 477 00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:46,920 Speaker 1: move away from the science for a bit and kind 478 00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:50,399 Speaker 1: of conclude this episode by talking about how to cut 479 00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:53,399 Speaker 1: ties with a narcissist, which can be especially hard considering 480 00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:57,080 Speaker 1: how charismatic and powerful they can feel and the emotional 481 00:27:57,200 --> 00:28:00,199 Speaker 1: vortex they create around them. So I read up on 482 00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:02,879 Speaker 1: some tips about this. If you're maybe seeking advice, and 483 00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:06,240 Speaker 1: I'm guessing if you have listened this far, you probably 484 00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:10,120 Speaker 1: have some personal attachment or have identified someone in your 485 00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:13,199 Speaker 1: life who may be narcissistic, and probably want to know 486 00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:15,879 Speaker 1: how to deal with it, because oh my god, it 487 00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:20,159 Speaker 1: can be fucking exhausting. This might be extreme, but it 488 00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:23,720 Speaker 1: might be necessary, and it's a strategy that I saw 489 00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:26,280 Speaker 1: all over the place that is recommended, and it's called 490 00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:29,120 Speaker 1: the no contact rule, which you know you could probably 491 00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:31,160 Speaker 1: apply to a lot of people who you might deem 492 00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:34,560 Speaker 1: as a bad view or negative in your life. So 493 00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:38,520 Speaker 1: the no contact rule is a method used in order 494 00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:41,800 Speaker 1: to cut ties with a narcissist, a sociopath, or some 495 00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:45,400 Speaker 1: other form of emotional manipulator. And as the name suggests, 496 00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:49,040 Speaker 1: it's all about stopping every kind of communication with that 497 00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:51,760 Speaker 1: person and cutting all ties with them so that you 498 00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:54,360 Speaker 1: are unable to interact with them and they can't interact 499 00:28:54,440 --> 00:29:00,000 Speaker 1: with you. For instance, not facing the narcissist under any circumstances, 500 00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:03,800 Speaker 1: whether you're alone in public or surrounded by friends, not 501 00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:08,120 Speaker 1: calling or texting or communicating with them, blocking their phone number, 502 00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:12,960 Speaker 1: blocking their Instagram, blocking their Facebook, from any social media account. 503 00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:16,560 Speaker 1: In fact, maybe even deactivating your own account as well, 504 00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:19,840 Speaker 1: if you're worried that you might not be able to 505 00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:22,000 Speaker 1: resist talking to them when you definitely need a bit 506 00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:24,400 Speaker 1: of a break, And if it's a family member, this 507 00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:26,960 Speaker 1: may be harder. We can't really expect that they will 508 00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:30,320 Speaker 1: respect your decision because well, as we kind of talked 509 00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:34,480 Speaker 1: about there, and capable of respecting boundaries or understanding emotional decisions. 510 00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:37,240 Speaker 1: But I do think it's essential to stay firm and 511 00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:39,800 Speaker 1: don't give in if you believe that nothing has changed, 512 00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:43,320 Speaker 1: which it unlikely has, because it is a chronic condition 513 00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:45,240 Speaker 1: and this doesn't just go away. This is who this 514 00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:48,920 Speaker 1: person is. And I think surrounding yourself was like a 515 00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:52,400 Speaker 1: good support network that's advice for anything, really, and writing 516 00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:54,440 Speaker 1: a list of why you've made the decision and why 517 00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:57,040 Speaker 1: you want to stick with it. And I think the 518 00:29:57,080 --> 00:29:59,680 Speaker 1: opinion I always have when making these kind of hard 519 00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:03,800 Speaker 1: to having these hard talks and making the decision to 520 00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:06,840 Speaker 1: cut someone else off or end things with someone is 521 00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:09,400 Speaker 1: you'll be so much happier you've made the decision now 522 00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:12,320 Speaker 1: rather than in three months, because it's three more months 523 00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:16,040 Speaker 1: of healing time for you. Anyhow, a bit of a 524 00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:18,480 Speaker 1: weird episode, a bit of an emotional episode, a lot 525 00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:23,920 Speaker 1: of baggage was unpacked and put away. Honestly, I'm like 526 00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:26,400 Speaker 1: getting the feeling. I do just feel like this podcast 527 00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:29,120 Speaker 1: is like a personal therapist or like source of Catharsis 528 00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:32,040 Speaker 1: for me. So much of my personal life tends to 529 00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:35,360 Speaker 1: filter in and maybe you've noticed that in my intros. 530 00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:38,320 Speaker 1: You know what really determines these episodes is what I'm 531 00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:41,520 Speaker 1: going through in my personal life rather and things I'm 532 00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:45,200 Speaker 1: interested in this, I think as well, not so much 533 00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:48,640 Speaker 1: like the things I think are like that the most relevant. 534 00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:52,280 Speaker 1: Like I think, yeah, a narcissism is interesting, but there 535 00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:54,640 Speaker 1: aren't that many narcissists. You might know one, but it's 536 00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:57,440 Speaker 1: not as common as like a breakup or feeling sad 537 00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:00,240 Speaker 1: or jealousy or things like that. But yeah, it's a 538 00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:03,840 Speaker 1: really interesting topic I think to discuss, and I've mentioned 539 00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:06,240 Speaker 1: it's just such a rich area of research. We really 540 00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:10,200 Speaker 1: don't know much about this disorder. It's so elusive, it's 541 00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:12,600 Speaker 1: so hard to find people to study it, so hard 542 00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:15,760 Speaker 1: to get people to commit to a long term therapy 543 00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:19,360 Speaker 1: and to see whether after a certain point there is 544 00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:24,640 Speaker 1: like a cure or like a treatment for narcissism, whether 545 00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:29,160 Speaker 1: it's like entirely bad. How to have a relationship with 546 00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:32,840 Speaker 1: someone who's a narcissist, because you know, people do. It's 547 00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:35,880 Speaker 1: not like the whole world of single people. It's just 548 00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:38,920 Speaker 1: people who are narcissistic, like many of them will have 549 00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:42,320 Speaker 1: relationships and they might even be functional. So how do 550 00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:44,520 Speaker 1: we kind of compute that with our idea that they're 551 00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:47,040 Speaker 1: like terrible and there are all these traits that we 552 00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:51,400 Speaker 1: really dislike in others. So anyhow, a nice little conclusion 553 00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:53,280 Speaker 1: to this episode. I hope you enjoyed it. Hope at 554 00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:56,520 Speaker 1: least it was interesting that you learned something a new 555 00:31:56,560 --> 00:31:59,800 Speaker 1: fact for the week. And yeah, thanks for listening all 556 00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:02,240 Speaker 1: the way through if you have. If you really liked 557 00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:07,120 Speaker 1: this episode, make sure you subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google, 558 00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:11,200 Speaker 1: wherever you're listening right now, and follow us on Instagram. 559 00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:14,719 Speaker 1: It's called twenty Psychology Podcast. You can see the awful 560 00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:19,360 Speaker 1: Instagram reels I've been making as of recent and yeah, 561 00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:22,120 Speaker 1: have a great week. I hope you enjoyed this episode, 562 00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:25,120 Speaker 1: that you learned something, and we will see you next 563 00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:27,200 Speaker 1: time for some more juicy discussions.