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Speaker 1: Also media.

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Speaker 2: Okay, hello, welcome to it could happen here. This is

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Speaker 2: Sharene today. I am joined by you know him, you

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Speaker 2: love him. It's Robert.

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Speaker 3: Hi, Robert Ah. Someone knows me and loves me. That's nice.

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Speaker 2: Robert is here today to talk with me to Charles McBride.

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Speaker 2: But I met Charles fairly recently doing just pro Palestine

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Speaker 2: stuff online, and I really liked his work. He's here

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Speaker 2: to talk about some things that I think are very

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Speaker 2: important to like Ukraine, and why helping Ukraine is not

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Speaker 2: the same thing as aid to Israel and all that

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Speaker 2: good stuff. And yeah, let's just get right into it.

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Speaker 2: I want to know your experience with Ukraine. Can you

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Speaker 2: just tell us a little bit about that first?

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Speaker 3: Sure.

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Speaker 4: First of all, thank you Sharen so much for having

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Speaker 4: me on. This has been one of my favorite podcasts

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Speaker 4: for a while. So this is kind of a slightly

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Speaker 4: surreal moment going into my experience with Ukraine. I double

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Speaker 4: majored in history in comparative religion in college, and I

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Speaker 4: was kind of interested in sort of the post Soviet sphere,

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Speaker 4: and I worked on some kind of post Soviet issues

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Speaker 4: when I lived in Washington, d C. After school, and

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Speaker 4: also was deeply interested in Eastern Orthodox Christianity, which is

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Speaker 4: kind of why I took an interest in that region.

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Speaker 4: So I remember, in like twenty fifteen, I watched this

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Speaker 4: Vice video called Russian Roulette that popped up on my

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Speaker 4: YouTube feed, and it just completely it just put Ukraine

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Speaker 4: on the map for me in a way that I'd

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Speaker 4: never really thought about before. I thought of it as

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Speaker 4: the Ukraine. Yeah, my Muscovite Russian history professor had always

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Speaker 4: talked about it as a part of Russia, and she

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Speaker 4: had denied, you know, I was during the Midan the

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Speaker 4: Revolution of Dignity, I was in college, and she denied

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Speaker 4: that Ukraine had any autonomy. She echoed all the putinesque

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Speaker 4: sort of talking points about CIA intervention and neo Nazis

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Speaker 4: and stuff, and I didn't really know what. I didn't

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Speaker 4: know at that point. So then I, yeah, I got

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Speaker 4: I got interested in in sort of what was happening

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Speaker 4: in the lead up to the Russian invasion. And I

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Speaker 4: had been following this guy who went over to Syria

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Speaker 4: a couple of years ago named Aidan Aslin. And in

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Speaker 4: my conversations with with aid and he'd sort of told

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Speaker 4: me a little bit about kind of what stuff was

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Speaker 4: like in going on in Ukraine, and I got very

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Speaker 4: interested in I was following him and all of his

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Speaker 4: friends and what they were doing. And at that point,

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Speaker 4: I had, you know, about four or five years of

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Speaker 4: nonprofit humanitarian experience under my belt, as long as as

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Speaker 4: well as sort of a historical political understanding of the region.

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Speaker 4: And so when the when the war happened, when the

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Speaker 4: full scale invasion happened, I immediately started trying to fundraise, trying

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Speaker 4: to help out, trying to educate, and sleep to try

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Speaker 4: and cut through Russian propaganda because there were a lot

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Speaker 4: of people in my sphere who were just retweeting straight

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Speaker 4: up Russian propaganda. They were elevating you know what you

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Speaker 4: and I know who are basically Krimlin adjacent individuals in

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Speaker 4: the United States who have Sway and leftist circles, some

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Speaker 4: of whom have re emerged in the Palestine discussion, much

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Speaker 4: to my chagrin.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, I'm sure we'll talk about that more like

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Speaker 5: I would love to.

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Speaker 3: Get into that.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, And so yeah, in my hope was to kind

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Speaker 4: of to do that, and as I was sort of

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Speaker 4: working with Ukrainian it's one of the things they said is, hey, man,

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Speaker 4: everything happens here. You have to be in Ukraine for

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Speaker 4: to get anything off the ground, so you need to

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Speaker 4: come here. And I'm like, are you insane? It's there's

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Speaker 4: a war going on in your country. So I said yes,

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Speaker 4: and yes, yes, I am in retrospect. So the second

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Speaker 4: week of the war, I booked a plane ticket, flew

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Speaker 4: over there, across the train and the pole, and scared

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Speaker 4: out of my mind, got in touch with the Ukrainians

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Speaker 4: I'd been talking to previously, and after a mad hustle

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Speaker 4: from the train station, was very comfortably drinking tea in

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Speaker 4: a cute little apartment in Leviv with somebody's grandmother. And

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Speaker 4: I was like, this is this is crazy experience. So

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Speaker 4: I spent two months in Ukraine. At the beginning, my

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Speaker 4: attention was to sort of identify gaps in the medical

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Speaker 4: supply chain, particularly things that were going to be initially

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Speaker 4: overlooked in the mad dash of refugees and resettlement and

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Speaker 4: all that sort of stuff. And one of the things

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Speaker 4: we identified was like prescription medication for people coming from

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Speaker 4: the East to the West. And yeah, I think it's

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Speaker 4: important that not a lot of realized that people coming

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Speaker 4: from Eastern Ukraine. A lot of them had never visited

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Speaker 4: cities like Leviv until the start of full scale invasion,

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Speaker 4: predominantly Russian speakers, and you know, for them, Leviv was

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Speaker 4: almost like going to Poland, and it was a very

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Speaker 4: new thing for them. But you know, your medical issues

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Speaker 4: don't stop just because someone invades their country. In fact,

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Speaker 4: oftentimes they get worse. And so what I was trying

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Speaker 4: to do initially was was find a way to address that,

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Speaker 4: and that led me into contact with Rostislov Philippinko, who's

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Speaker 4: one of my dear friends and the co founder of

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Speaker 4: the organization that we started together called Mission HARKV. So

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Speaker 4: that organization worked initially on prescription medications and then started

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Speaker 4: distributing high end oncology drugs, which are very difficult to transport,

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Speaker 4: very lucrative to steel, and very difficult to store because

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Speaker 4: they have to be kept at a constant temperature. So

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Speaker 4: we focused on those things while everybody else was focusing

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Speaker 4: on tints and you know, and clothes for refugees and

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Speaker 4: that sort of stuff. And as a result, we carved

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Speaker 4: out a very interesting niche in terms of the humanitarian

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Speaker 4: response and are still you know, going strong with that

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Speaker 4: today and so that was initially kind of why I

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Speaker 4: went over there for that first two months, and since

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Speaker 4: then I've been back over to film a documentary, sort

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Speaker 4: of an artistic short documentary called Note of Defiance, and

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Speaker 4: then I was involved with another documentary project which is

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Speaker 4: hopefully forthcoming in the next year.

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Speaker 3: Nice.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I don't think I've talked about this on the show,

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Speaker 5: but kind of my relationship with Ukraine and eventually going

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Speaker 5: over there and starting to report on what was happening

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Speaker 5: started weirdly enough as a result of the fact that

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Speaker 5: I had friends who went to the big Burning Man

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Speaker 5: event in Nevada, and I wound up traveling with one

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Speaker 5: of them in India, this Ukrainian woman who lived in

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Speaker 5: the Bay and when stuff started in late twenty thirteen,

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Speaker 5: which is when the Revolution of Dignity is kind of

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Speaker 5: the common Ukrainian name for it. You'll also hear it

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Speaker 5: referred to as like the twenty fourteen revolution of the

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Speaker 5: madn Revolution. They're all talking about the same thing, which

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Speaker 5: is when the guy who was the President of Ukraine

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Speaker 5: trying to make himself into a dictator, the stude Victor Yanikovich,

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Speaker 5: who is this incredibly wealthy oligarch who literally built a

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Speaker 5: golden palace for himself with like a fake lake that

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Speaker 5: had a boat on it, that was a restaurant for

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Speaker 5: just him, for like the level of rich oligarch asshole

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Speaker 5: we're talking about here, cracked down really brutally on a

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Speaker 5: student protest, which it kind of culminated in this kind

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Speaker 5: of escalating occupation of the Center Square in the capitol

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Speaker 5: that basically got built into an ice fortress in like

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Speaker 5: the middle of the Ukrainian winter. This very very like

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Speaker 5: pretty epic story of successful resistance because this guy is

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Speaker 5: eventually forced out the police riot unit, the bearcoot who

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Speaker 5: had done had been literally killing people by dropping them

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Speaker 5: naked in like ice drifts and stuff, are disbanded. It's

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Speaker 5: a really remarkable story, and I just kind of fell

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Speaker 5: into it because my friend connected me with a couple

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Speaker 5: of people who were on the ground there, who were

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Speaker 5: friends of hers, who were Ukrainian in the tech industry,

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Speaker 5: who traveled to the US every year or so for

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Speaker 5: burning Man, and so when this occupation of the madn started,

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Speaker 5: they were like, well, we know how to, like we're

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Speaker 5: used to making soup and food for large numbers of

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Speaker 5: people and like running little chunks of a camp. So

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Speaker 5: we'll just start, We'll just do the thing that we

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Speaker 5: do at our camp out over in Maidan. And they

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Speaker 5: were part of the thing they were part of was

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Speaker 5: the Automidon, which was this like mobile unit of resupply

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Speaker 5: where people would like basically drive supplies to and from

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Speaker 5: different areas of occupation in the city. It was a

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Speaker 5: pretty dangerous job as things escalated, but that was my

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Speaker 5: ind and I wound up talking to like, I don't know,

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Speaker 5: twenty or thirty people like actively the entire time the

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Speaker 5: occupation was going on. There's like two folks I never

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Speaker 5: was able to get back in touch with who just

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Speaker 5: kind of like dropped off at a certain point. Like

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Speaker 5: it was a really sketchy time for a lot of people.

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Speaker 5: But I wound up traveling there the year after, right

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Speaker 5: after the early part of the invasion, started to report

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Speaker 5: from Avdifka, which is, you know, was had been under

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Speaker 5: siege for a year at that point and is still

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Speaker 5: under siege today. For an idea of like that's a

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Speaker 5: decade now basically that that this this little town has

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Speaker 5: been shelled.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, anyway, yeah, I didn't know that about burning Man.

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Speaker 3: That's well, it was a weird way to get connected

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Speaker 3: to it. Yeah.

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Speaker 5: I just got a message from this friend of mine

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Speaker 5: who's like, hey, somebody, someboddies from my camp are like

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Speaker 5: trying to overthrow their government. Do you want to talk

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Speaker 5: to them? I was like, well, yeah, that sounds pretty dope. Yeah,

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Speaker 5: that's your mo that's wild. You know what burning Man

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Speaker 5: really does, apply It.

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Speaker 4: Provides, It really connects all, doesn't it. I have some

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Speaker 4: weird like tangential burning I've never been.

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Speaker 3: But I have like neither of I actually yeah.

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Speaker 4: I have like Burning Man devotees who play a large

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Speaker 4: role in my life. And it's just very interesting.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, the weird little connections you get. And I

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Speaker 5: was kind of disappointed, you know. To me, this was

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Speaker 5: because the whole time, especially like the late twenty thirteen

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Speaker 5: early twenty fourteen, as this was going on, I was like, well,

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Speaker 5: they're probably all going to get killed, right, like, just

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Speaker 5: you know, we were several years in the Syrian Civil

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Speaker 5: War at this point, Like I was not optimistic, and

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Speaker 5: that's not what happened. And then there was like this

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Speaker 5: counterpoint of realizing a few years later that oh, a

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Speaker 5: shocking number of people on the left think it was

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Speaker 5: a bad thing that they overthrew their government. Yeah, which, yeah,

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Speaker 5: I guess gets us into the kind of thing you

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Speaker 5: wanted to talk about, which is the difference in providing

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Speaker 5: military aid to Ukraine versus Israel.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, which I don't know.

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Speaker 5: I mean, from my standpoint, it's pretty obvious, right, Like,

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Speaker 5: one country is fighting a military that has a massive

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Speaker 5: industrial base, much more powerful than it and is killing

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Speaker 5: large numbers of civilians, and they have proven their ability

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Speaker 5: with military aid to react effectively to this invasion. And

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Speaker 5: the other case, I don't think I need to explain

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Speaker 5: which one, but it's Israel is a country with a

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Speaker 5: massive arms industry that is fighting people who have no

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Speaker 5: arms industry of any kind and primarily killing civilians. So

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Speaker 5: I can very easily justify one of those groups of

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Speaker 5: people getting US weapons and one of them not needing

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Speaker 5: any additional weapons.

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Speaker 3: That's right, Yeah, you.

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Speaker 4: See, Robert. None of that is justified because of the

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Speaker 4: existence of the Azhoh Battalion. There is no right for

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Speaker 4: any Ukrainian grandmother to get access to her insulin because

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Speaker 4: there's a couple of neo Nazis that were stationed in Mariople.

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Speaker 4: But truly, that is that is about how sophisticated. A

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Speaker 4: lot of the leftist critiques of the Ukraine, of supporting

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Speaker 4: Ukraine are. Yeah, I think a lot of it comes in.

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Speaker 4: One of the things that I talk about, and I

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Speaker 4: talked with Sharin about this when we went on Instagram

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Speaker 4: Live together, is that a lot of leftists seem to

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Speaker 4: live in kind of a weird little cinematic universe where

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Speaker 4: only the US and Israel can be the bad guys,

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Speaker 4: and by extension, France and the UK you know, and

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Speaker 4: YadA YadA. But as a result of that, they have

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Speaker 4: this just really strange view of global affairs that literally

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Speaker 4: no one in the countries they're talking about share. Somehow,

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Speaker 4: Russia and Iran and China and Cuba are all aligned

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Speaker 4: in a sort of anti imperial axis because they oppose

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Speaker 4: the interests of NATO in the United States. And I

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Speaker 4: think that's just so, that's that's patently ridiculous, but it

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Speaker 4: plays a big role in conversations like what's going on

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Speaker 4: in Palestine, yes, or people will invoke, well, why are

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Speaker 4: you giving all this money to Ukraine instead of giving

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Speaker 4: money to people the relief for the Maui fires, or

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Speaker 4: you know, doing why are we doing medical medicare for all.

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Speaker 4: So it's like it's a convenient because it's the military

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Speaker 4: industrial complex, it's the Iraq War, it's all these things

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Speaker 4: that we as leftists were taught to hate, but it's

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Speaker 4: there being used for good. It's like America is actually

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Speaker 4: being the arsenal democracy and doing the thing that we

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Speaker 4: did in World War Two that helped the Soviet Union

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Speaker 4: march into Berlin.

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Speaker 5: Well, and it's also i think an important thing to

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Speaker 5: notice when we talk about the it's always framed as

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Speaker 5: the US is giving this amount of money to Ukraine.

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Speaker 5: What's what's happening is we are taking stockpiles of arms

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Speaker 5: we already have worth that much money, and we are

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Speaker 5: sending them there like they're not right like that that

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Speaker 5: is overwhelmingly like the the what kind of aid we

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Speaker 5: are sending over So these are extant weapons that are

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Speaker 5: sitting in the US doing nothing and being like the Bradley's.

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Speaker 5: We didn't just build a bunch of new Bradley's. We

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Speaker 5: had a shitload of them, we weren't using them anymore

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Speaker 5: because they were not very useful in the conflicts that

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Speaker 5: we were fighting, right that Bradleys.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, the United States is like really itching to like

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Speaker 4: need high mars right now. No, Like all of this

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Speaker 4: stuff we're sending to them has been mothballed for yeah,

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Speaker 4: basically since the Goal War, and people don't understand that.

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Speaker 5: It is funny to me to imagine, like, yeah, let's

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Speaker 5: send that stuff to Maui for the virus.

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Speaker 3: That's what they need. They need long range artillery.

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Speaker 5: That's really gonna that's really gonna help them heal.

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Speaker 4: I'm in favor of sending lethal aid to the indigenous

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Speaker 4: residents of Malai, but I think that's it.

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Speaker 5: You talked me into it, and I think we have

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Speaker 5: enough mothball tanks for both of these goss.

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Speaker 2: I think for me, the comparisons for Ukraine and Palestine,

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Speaker 2: it started with how it was presented in the media.

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Speaker 2: It just it rought people the wrong way when the

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Speaker 2: Ukrainian struggle was presented in a certain way and the

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Speaker 2: Palestinian struggle was not. And people can draw some draw

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Speaker 2: like comparison like whiteness and all this stuff. Absolutely, and

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Speaker 2: I just it got me, really, it really irritates me

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Speaker 2: because it's not like the Oppression Olympics, Like we're not

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Speaker 2: trying to compare or demonize Ukrainians. We should demonize the

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Speaker 2: media for not representing Palestinians in the right way. But

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Speaker 2: I think that is kind of the origin of the

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Speaker 2: comparison that I saw anyway.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, and I think that that's really worth digging into

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Speaker 5: because there's a couple of First off, it is absolutely

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Speaker 5: an injustice that Ukrainian resistance and that light is seen

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Speaker 5: as inherently just and not just Palestinian resistance is demonized

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Speaker 5: or often ignored, But like all sorts of resistance by

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Speaker 5: people who are being harmed around the world, it partially

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Speaker 5: is or in large part as a result of like

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Speaker 5: US and other Western countries policies are not seen in

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Speaker 5: the same light as Ukrainian resistance. I certainly agree with

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Speaker 5: that stance. That's not the refault of anybody in Ukraine.

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Speaker 5: Right this we are not talking about a country that

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Speaker 5: exercises power on the global stage. We are talking about

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Speaker 5: a cash poor nation that has been struggling with Russian

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Speaker 5: imperialism for most of the time that most of the

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Speaker 5: people listening this, actually all of the time that everybody

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Speaker 5: listening to this has been alive in one form or another, right,

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Speaker 5: And so I think it's perfectly fair to point out

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Speaker 5: the ways in which the media reports unequally on these conflict,

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Speaker 5: on what's happening in Palestine, what's happening on stuff like Buka,

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Speaker 5: and on the mass slaughter of civilians in Gaza.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 5: I think that that is worth pointing out, but it's

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Speaker 5: also not worth blaming Ukrainians over they are not participating

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Speaker 5: in that, just by saying, hey, it's bad that our

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Speaker 5: civilians are being massacred by rockets, right and other forms

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Speaker 5: of weaponry. By the way, like that, right, that's not

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Speaker 5: on them.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I think to also kind of flip that on

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Speaker 4: its head. I mean, part of it is the media narrative.

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Speaker 4: You know, it's easier. Ukrainians are mostly hot white people

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Speaker 4: in the eye of the Western media, and it's easy

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Speaker 4: to cheer for the hot white people who have you know,

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Speaker 4: everyone's a lot of people have been to Ukrainian restaurant,

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Speaker 4: They're familiar with some Ukrainian maybe songs, so they have

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Speaker 4: friends if they live in a place like la or

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Speaker 4: New York. You know Ukrainians, you're familiar maybe even with

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Speaker 4: some Ukrainian media, and it's kind of like this accessible thing,

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Speaker 4: you know. And also like there's other aspects of it

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Speaker 4: to which you're even stranger, which is that Ukraines produces

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Speaker 4: like a huge amount of the world's fashion models. That's

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Speaker 4: a very accessible thing for people to get behind in

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Speaker 4: the nice liberal media. And you could see these in

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Speaker 4: these initial broadcasts being like I've never seen anything like this.

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Speaker 4: With seeing all these European looking refugees, it's like, all right.

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Speaker 2: They're multilearly cast like that, where they're like, these are

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Speaker 2: not Arabs, like they say it with their chests, you know,

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Speaker 2: like the these are people like us.

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Speaker 4: But for the flip side of that is that that

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Speaker 4: leftists are reluctant to be charitable to Ukrainians because they

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Speaker 4: also see them as hot white people who don't need

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Speaker 4: any help. Yeah, and they're they're unwilling to admit that

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Speaker 4: Ukrainian Ukrainians, like Gosins, also suffer from a settler colonial

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Speaker 4: state as their neighbor with a history of ethnically cleansing

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Speaker 4: and genociding them.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: I mean part of the reason for that is that

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Speaker 5: the neighbor that ethnically cleansed in gen well one of them,

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Speaker 5: because actually they had several neighbors ethnically cleansing genocide them.

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Speaker 5: But the Soviet Union, like did a significant amount of

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Speaker 5: that during the Holy Dolmore. Now, the Germans also carried

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Speaker 5: out a massive genocide in Ukraine. Like and by the way,

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Speaker 5: a huge number of the Red Army soldiers who successfully

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Speaker 5: helped defeat the Nazis were Ukrainians. As a note is

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Speaker 5: you often see this thing where people will point out

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Speaker 5: there were a significant number of Ukrainians that fought with

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Speaker 5: the Nazis, and they tend to ignore that, like, yeah,

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Speaker 5: and there were even more Ukrainians who fought with the

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Speaker 5: Red Army. Like, both of those things happened. It was

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Speaker 5: a world war and Ukraine was right in the middle

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Speaker 5: of it. It's a very ugly situation. And it kind

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Speaker 5: of comes down to this inability of a lot of

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Speaker 5: people to not even nuanced to care about accuracy when

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Speaker 5: that accuracy is not like ideologically convenient, when it points

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Speaker 5: to some of the ugliness and messiness of war. I

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Speaker 5: find that very frustrating. Like I sympathize with because I

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Speaker 5: was reporting on the Syrian refugee crisis from the refugee

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Speaker 5: trail right after actually I was in Ukraine, and it

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Speaker 5: is unfair that like Ukrainian refugees were treated differently. But

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Speaker 5: the people to blame for that is the news media,

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Speaker 5: not refugees who have lost their homes. In fact, I

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Speaker 5: suspect that a lot of Ukrainians have a different attitude

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Speaker 5: themselves towards the suffering that they witness during that period

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Speaker 5: of time because they've now been through it. It's just

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Speaker 5: like a human thing now, you know what that's like?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean as a Syrian person who for the

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Speaker 2: past like over a decade, I really the media really

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Speaker 2: fucking got on my nerves every time I would see

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Speaker 2: them not talk about Syria, or when they did it

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Speaker 2: was not a good way. And then when they started

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Speaker 2: really embracing Ukrainian refugees or talking about them in a

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Speaker 2: different way, I'm not gonna lie, it made me mad,

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Speaker 2: but not at Ukrainians. Like I think even now, we

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Speaker 2: should have criticized the media back then, but like they're

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Speaker 2: doing the same thing now with their fucking headlines about

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Speaker 2: Israel and Palestine. It's always how it's presented versus the

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Speaker 2: people it's presenting. Like when someone when some dumb newscaster

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Speaker 2: is standing in front of a group of Ukrainian refugees

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Speaker 2: behind him and he's like, these are not Arabs, these

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Speaker 2: are white people. They didn't say that he did, so

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Speaker 2: I don't know. Yeah, And also, like.

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Speaker 4: I encourage everyone to ask Ukrainian, particularly Eastern Ukrainian's opinions

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Speaker 4: on the Western media and like Westerners in general, because

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Speaker 4: two years into this war, they have a lot of them,

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Speaker 4: and I imagine that they would. You would find a

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Speaker 4: lot of the sentiments shared by the Ukrainians. They don't

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Speaker 4: always appreciate how they're portrayed in the Western media, as

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Speaker 4: you know, either brave defenders of their country or sook

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Speaker 4: covered refugees coming off of a railcar. You know, they

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Speaker 4: have a lot of opinions on these sorts of things.

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Speaker 4: They feel patronized, they feel babied in some senses, and

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Speaker 4: they feel like they will be ultimately abandoned by us,

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Speaker 4: which is already coming to pass. And as the attention

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Speaker 4: shifts to things like Gaza, you know, it's difficult for

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Speaker 4: them to feel like they have any friends.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I want to get into that, but let's

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Speaker 2: take our first break, and yes, we will jump back

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Speaker 2: in and we're back. Okay, we had just been talking

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Speaker 2: about how the support for Ukraine has kind of changed recently.

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Speaker 2: Can you get into that little bit.

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Speaker 4: I'm not even necessarily sure that it changed so recently.

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Speaker 4: I remember being over there and it was wall to

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Speaker 4: wall coverage from the moment I set foot, from the

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Speaker 4: moment it started to really up until the Oscars and

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Speaker 4: the Chris rock slap. Is what we all talked about

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Speaker 4: last Oscars like this is yeah, the last Oscars and

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Speaker 4: the Chris Rocks slap and all the attention that that got.

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Speaker 4: Was the moment that a lot of the volunteers talked about,

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Speaker 4: is the moment where people started to want to forget

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Speaker 4: about Ukraine. There was still a lot of bridge, but

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Speaker 4: suddenly it was like, you don't have to be obsessed

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Speaker 4: with Ukraine. You know, Ukraine's now a second page story

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Speaker 4: instead of a first page story. That was around the

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Speaker 4: same time that the Russians withdrew from Kiev, So suddenly

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Speaker 4: there wasn't there wasn't this expectation that Kiev was going

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Speaker 4: to fall and the capital be taken in Zelensky would

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Speaker 4: be captured, and it started to slow up. Even then,

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Speaker 4: you know, the donations dried up, the attention dried up,

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Speaker 4: and by the time I went there in the winter

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Speaker 4: of twenty twenty three last year, it was like people

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Speaker 4: already wanted to forget. I mean, I live in Los Angeles,

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Speaker 4: and a lot of people here were saying things like,

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Speaker 4: oh wow, is that still going on? Really nice, well

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Speaker 4: meaning people who knew I'd been over there, they were

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Speaker 4: just like, is that you know, is that still a

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Speaker 4: war going on?

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Speaker 1: Here?

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Speaker 4: We are in twenty days, it's going to be two

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Speaker 4: years of this. Yeah, my friends over there are are exhausted,

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Speaker 4: and they don't They're now a page eight story.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: And it's this comes back to like how Americans like

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Speaker 5: to think about conflict. We have an enormous appetite for

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Speaker 5: war and for you know, a particularly what we consider

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Speaker 5: a just struggle for up to a couple of months, right,

435
00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:16,960
Speaker 5: and then people were very excited when, yeah, the Russians

436
00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:20,679
Speaker 5: invade everyone. The expectation, both from like military experts in

437
00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:23,280
Speaker 5: the West and from certainly civilians, is that like Russia

438
00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:24,639
Speaker 5: is going to crush them immediately.

439
00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:25,600
Speaker 3: And then they don't.

440
00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:28,720
Speaker 5: There's this real upset, come from behind, underdog victory and

441
00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:31,959
Speaker 5: Americans love that. But then like it's not a total

442
00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:35,119
Speaker 5: immediate victory, and in fact, it turns into at this

443
00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:39,840
Speaker 5: point and really really brutal, ugly slow war of attrition

444
00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:44,240
Speaker 5: and maneuver, which is like what war is, right, Like,

445
00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:47,639
Speaker 5: that's that's how any sort of near peer conflict is

446
00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:50,679
Speaker 5: going to boil out. And it's not a kind of

447
00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:52,760
Speaker 5: thing that is resolved quickly, and it's not a kind

448
00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:56,160
Speaker 5: of thing that is resolved without cost. And as soon

449
00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:59,320
Speaker 5: as that became clear Americans, it didn't. It doesn't fit

450
00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:02,320
Speaker 5: into that like ninety minute Hollywood vision of how a

451
00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:04,760
Speaker 5: conflict is supposed to go right. There was no the

452
00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:07,520
Speaker 5: Ukrainians didn't blow up a death star and end it right,

453
00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:10,159
Speaker 5: like I mean, actually that's not what happens in the

454
00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:14,280
Speaker 5: movies either, but like it's still it was not the quick,

455
00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:17,240
Speaker 5: clean end that a lot of people were expecting and

456
00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:20,160
Speaker 5: hoping for. And as a result, people are like, well,

457
00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:22,720
Speaker 5: now it's a quagmire and now it's like we have

458
00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:25,600
Speaker 5: to start looking for some way out of this thing,

459
00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:29,239
Speaker 5: which by the way, has cost us very little. Like

460
00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:32,720
Speaker 5: my stance on like when is this over is like, well,

461
00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:36,320
Speaker 5: I guess when Ukraine says it's over, right, Like if

462
00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:39,600
Speaker 5: the Ukrainians want to come to the negotiating table and

463
00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:42,800
Speaker 5: negotiating into hostilities, then like that's their business. But up

464
00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:45,600
Speaker 5: until that point, I think the business of the United

465
00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:49,600
Speaker 5: States is to continue to meet our treaty obligations, which

466
00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:52,200
Speaker 5: we should. We should note like the United States and

467
00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:56,200
Speaker 5: NATO are obligated to support Ukraine in a war over

468
00:24:56,280 --> 00:25:01,119
Speaker 5: its sovereignty because they gave up their nukes. With that understanding, right,

469
00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:03,760
Speaker 5: this is what happened when we told the country, yeah, yeah,

470
00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:05,880
Speaker 5: we said you'll give up her nukes, and we got

471
00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:08,240
Speaker 5: your back like this. This was the promise we made.

472
00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:11,320
Speaker 5: And as far as I'm concerned, that's the only interest

473
00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:13,680
Speaker 5: I haven't like. My answer is like, how long should

474
00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:16,880
Speaker 5: we support them? Well, as long as they're fighting, and.

475
00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:20,240
Speaker 4: We've been keeping that promise for the cost of five

476
00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:23,440
Speaker 4: percent of our defense budget. And like you mentioned earlier,

477
00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:26,720
Speaker 4: it's it's already stuff that's mothballed since the Gulf War,

478
00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:29,639
Speaker 4: sitting around waiting to be used, you know. I mean,

479
00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:33,840
Speaker 4: the idea of giving them F sixteen's every every country

480
00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:36,959
Speaker 4: in the world, practically, at least in the NATO Alliance.

481
00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:38,920
Speaker 4: It seems like everyone has an F sixteen. I think

482
00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:42,480
Speaker 4: we're giving them a turkey now too, Like it's not

483
00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:44,879
Speaker 4: a big deal to give a couple of F sixteens

484
00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:48,280
Speaker 4: to the Ukrainians or a couple of Bradleys or Abrams

485
00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:53,600
Speaker 4: or what have you. And I think that people especially

486
00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:55,479
Speaker 4: on the right, but also on the left, who get

487
00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:57,600
Speaker 4: obsessed over the amount of money that we're sending or

488
00:25:57,600 --> 00:25:59,840
Speaker 4: the amount of equipment in personnel, especially when they see

489
00:25:59,840 --> 00:26:03,199
Speaker 4: these worries about corruption, they don't they don't understand the

490
00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:05,879
Speaker 4: scale of how small this actually is relative to the

491
00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:10,080
Speaker 4: United States other commitments, like to Israel. And yes, they

492
00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:15,119
Speaker 4: get sort of myopically focused on this, and they use

493
00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:17,399
Speaker 4: it as a reason to dislike Ukraine. The right will

494
00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:19,840
Speaker 4: never like Ukraine because Zelensky was the guy who made

495
00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:22,160
Speaker 4: Trump look bad and got him impeached. I think it's

496
00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:25,040
Speaker 4: that simple. Yeah, it's wild that like well, also, I

497
00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:27,280
Speaker 4: mean the Russian interference and stuff. You know, the Republican

498
00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:29,919
Speaker 4: Party now resembles Russia more. But it's wild that Republicans,

499
00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:32,040
Speaker 4: you know, thirty years ago were super anti Russia and

500
00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:34,720
Speaker 4: now they Russia's best friend, and they think Ukraine are

501
00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:36,439
Speaker 4: sort of Satanists whatever.

502
00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:38,639
Speaker 3: Yeah, to and non corrupt people.

503
00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:43,439
Speaker 5: And it's to kind of emphasize how small five percent

504
00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:47,439
Speaker 5: of the Defense Department budget is the Pentagon. This is

505
00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:50,879
Speaker 5: from like a twenty twenty two story the Pentagon can't

506
00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:55,040
Speaker 5: account for several trillion dollars in assets, which doesn't mean

507
00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:57,400
Speaker 5: we don't fully know where they are, but it means

508
00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:01,320
Speaker 5: that like Pentagon record keeping has sort of like lost

509
00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:05,359
Speaker 5: huge amounts of assets over the years. At the moment,

510
00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:09,880
Speaker 5: like right now, the Pentagon, like as of November twenty sixteen,

511
00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:12,439
Speaker 5: had failed six audits in a row, and as far

512
00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:14,000
Speaker 5: as I can tell, I don't think they've actually ever

513
00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:17,320
Speaker 5: passed an audit of like all of their resources. Like

514
00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:21,679
Speaker 5: there's huge amounts trillions of dollars in assets that like

515
00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:26,200
Speaker 5: we can't fully document. It's it's when you think about

516
00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:28,560
Speaker 5: like the amount of money that we've actually sent over

517
00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:30,919
Speaker 5: there as a defense or as a percentage of just

518
00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:34,239
Speaker 5: like the stuff that we can't fully account for in

519
00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:38,360
Speaker 5: our militaries like Arsenal, it's it's a tiny fraction of that,

520
00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:42,200
Speaker 5: let alone a fraction of like our defense department's total assets.

521
00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:44,480
Speaker 5: And it also this gets back to when people talk

522
00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:47,960
Speaker 5: about like corruption in Ukraine, and by god, Ukraine has

523
00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:50,439
Speaker 5: a history of government corruption, which is part of what

524
00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:54,040
Speaker 5: the revolution in twenty fourteen was about, right, But it's

525
00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:56,760
Speaker 5: particularly silly to complain about that as a reason not

526
00:27:56,880 --> 00:28:00,439
Speaker 5: to send them weaponry when we know the US Defense

527
00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:05,160
Speaker 5: Department is massively corrupt, a huge amount of corruption, involving

528
00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:08,879
Speaker 5: not just like not specifically even like military officials, but

529
00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:13,000
Speaker 5: involving civilian contractors, involving like the agencies we contract to,

530
00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:16,600
Speaker 5: involving the money that we've sent over the course of

531
00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:18,840
Speaker 5: like the eight trillion dollars or so that we've spent

532
00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:22,000
Speaker 5: on the war on Terror. A huge chunk of that,

533
00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:24,240
Speaker 5: hundreds of billions of dollars of the money that we

534
00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:27,200
Speaker 5: spent on the War on Terror is just gone. Billions

535
00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:29,439
Speaker 5: of it disappeared in the form of cash pallets that

536
00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:33,240
Speaker 5: we just lost, right, Like, this is the amount of

537
00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:35,919
Speaker 5: money that it has cost us to support Ukraine in

538
00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:38,840
Speaker 5: this war. Is a rounding error of the shit we

539
00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:42,400
Speaker 5: lost just as a matter of business, like just as

540
00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:43,720
Speaker 5: like as.

541
00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:45,880
Speaker 4: Like a rounding earrow of like what we gave to Halliburton.

542
00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:49,160
Speaker 5: Yes, you know, yes, to build hospitals that didn't work

543
00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:50,160
Speaker 5: in Afghanistan.

544
00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:53,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly. In speaking of Afghanistan, I think a lot

545
00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:57,640
Speaker 4: of people look at you, they look at the Afghanistan withdrawal,

546
00:28:57,720 --> 00:28:59,720
Speaker 4: and they think, oh, this is what Ukraine's going to

547
00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:01,920
Speaker 4: be like but I think that brings up the point

548
00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:04,120
Speaker 4: of story, what are we getting for that five percent

549
00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:06,360
Speaker 4: of defense budget? You know, we gave a bunch to

550
00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:09,400
Speaker 4: afghan and we ended up getting the same situation that

551
00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:10,760
Speaker 4: we had when we went in there in two thousand

552
00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:12,920
Speaker 4: and one, the Taliban and control. But now they have

553
00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:15,520
Speaker 4: billions of dollars worth of America the state of the

554
00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:17,440
Speaker 4: art American military equipment.

555
00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:19,680
Speaker 5: And hundreds of thousands of Afghan people died in the

556
00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:21,240
Speaker 5: interim exactly.

557
00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:24,240
Speaker 4: And then you contrast that with like, well, what is

558
00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:26,680
Speaker 4: our five percent of military budget get us in Ukraine?

559
00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:28,920
Speaker 4: And you look at what this is doing to Russia.

560
00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:34,320
Speaker 4: Russia gained abou zero point one percent of Ukrainian territory

561
00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:36,560
Speaker 4: in the year twenty twenty three, second year of war,

562
00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:40,680
Speaker 4: and to do that, they lost about one hundred thousand soldiers.

563
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:44,000
Speaker 4: Now there's a lot of people in Russia. And that's

564
00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:45,640
Speaker 4: always been the thing about Russia is that they have

565
00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:49,480
Speaker 4: this depth of recruiting that they can pull on. But

566
00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:54,920
Speaker 4: they're taking out recruiting ads in like Saint Petersburg, in

567
00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:58,719
Speaker 4: Moscow and in like the wealthy that they're going hard

568
00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:02,720
Speaker 4: on like recruiting from wealthy urban centers instead of sort

569
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:05,320
Speaker 4: of the traditional rural areas where they bring in all

570
00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:09,640
Speaker 4: their recruits, which is evidence to me that they're suffering

571
00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:12,200
Speaker 4: from a manpower shortage in the same way that the

572
00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:14,800
Speaker 4: Ukrainians are. Yeah, and that's one of the things that

573
00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:18,400
Speaker 4: particularly frustrates me when people say that we're not what

574
00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:21,000
Speaker 4: are we getting for our money? Because that's it, Like

575
00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:23,440
Speaker 4: Russia is on the ropes. People just don't want to

576
00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:26,720
Speaker 4: admit it. People see a slight incremental Russian gain or

577
00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:29,080
Speaker 4: they feel like there's a standstill on the Ukrainian counter

578
00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:31,080
Speaker 4: offensive and they think, oh well, let's just throw in

579
00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:35,880
Speaker 4: the towel. It's like, no, you can't stop the pressure now,

580
00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:38,680
Speaker 4: and Putin is finally kind of ready to come to

581
00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:42,239
Speaker 4: the negotiating table, it seems, and the Ukrainians, you know,

582
00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:44,960
Speaker 4: need our help more than ever, And that's kind of

583
00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:48,240
Speaker 4: the frustrating aspect. I went on the Hill TV the

584
00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:52,040
Speaker 4: other day to talk with someone who said, basically, she said,

585
00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:54,800
Speaker 4: is there any hope for Ukraine? Like very already fatalistic

586
00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:57,280
Speaker 4: about the whole thing, like are they already on the ropes?

587
00:30:57,280 --> 00:31:00,000
Speaker 4: And I was like, no, they're not on the rope.

588
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:02,120
Speaker 4: So this is a narrative that we need to change.

589
00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:04,160
Speaker 4: We need to understand that there's a very there's a

590
00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:07,520
Speaker 4: huge difference between what military aid gets us in Ukraine

591
00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:10,360
Speaker 4: versus what it gets us in Israel and Afghanistan.

592
00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:13,680
Speaker 5: And there's it's also like a significant change and like

593
00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:16,840
Speaker 5: who is being killed by those weapons, right, because even

594
00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:19,680
Speaker 5: when we talk about the use of like the US

595
00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:23,520
Speaker 5: use of weapons in foreign countries, we are often talking

596
00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:27,640
Speaker 5: about these kind of these brush fire conflicts, these insurgencies

597
00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:29,840
Speaker 5: in which a great deal of the fighting takes place

598
00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:33,480
Speaker 5: in and around civilian populaces. And obviously there are Ukrainian

599
00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:35,560
Speaker 5: cities that have been under siege for quite a while.

600
00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:39,600
Speaker 5: But when we're talking about like the Ukrainians firing or

601
00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:42,400
Speaker 5: giving them him Our systems or giving them Bradley's, we

602
00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:45,200
Speaker 5: are talking about weaponry that is being used to break

603
00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:49,800
Speaker 5: fortifications on along a line of contact, which isn't as

604
00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:53,200
Speaker 5: zero never is a zero civilian casualty endeavor because those

605
00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:57,400
Speaker 5: don't exist in war, but is a significantly less like

606
00:31:57,520 --> 00:32:01,080
Speaker 5: involves significantly fewer civilian losses then the kind of wars

607
00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:02,840
Speaker 5: that we have fought for most of the time that

608
00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:05,680
Speaker 5: I've been alive, right, because we're simply not using the

609
00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:08,400
Speaker 5: weapons are not being used in the same way. Bombarding

610
00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:10,800
Speaker 5: a trench lion is not the same as firing a

611
00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:14,080
Speaker 5: cruise missile at what you're pretty sure is a terrorist

612
00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:17,240
Speaker 5: hideout in a city, you know, right.

613
00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:19,440
Speaker 4: And we have been reluctant to give them any weapons

614
00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:21,840
Speaker 4: that could do that. I mean, some notable exceptions would

615
00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:25,400
Speaker 4: be like the strike on the naval command center and Sevestopol. Yes,

616
00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:28,040
Speaker 4: some other drone limited but but ansoly. Most of those

617
00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:30,880
Speaker 4: are drone strikes from drone factories where the Ukrainians create

618
00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:33,760
Speaker 4: their own stuff, and there have been some limited civilian

619
00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:36,640
Speaker 4: casualties in their incursions into Russian territory because we won't

620
00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:39,800
Speaker 4: we won't give them any weapons that go into Russian territory.

621
00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:44,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, they've had to give is the early anything they want? Yeah, well, shit.

622
00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:48,960
Speaker 4: Anything else, everything they want.

623
00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:52,840
Speaker 5: I mean, we can't say that's not the case for

624
00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:56,640
Speaker 5: whoever comes up next, because a number of our advertisements

625
00:32:56,640 --> 00:33:13,400
Speaker 5: are random, but hopefully not and we're back all right.

626
00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:15,480
Speaker 5: One of the things you have to keep in mind

627
00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:19,920
Speaker 5: when you think about like is what is the US

628
00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:22,400
Speaker 5: capable of doing that is positive and what is the

629
00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:24,680
Speaker 5: US capable of doing. That's negative is that the United

630
00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:27,719
Speaker 5: States is fucking massive, right, Our budget is fucking massive.

631
00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:31,400
Speaker 5: And we talk on this show, on my other show

632
00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:33,680
Speaker 5: about a lot of horrible things our government has been

633
00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:38,080
Speaker 5: involved in, which doesn't which does not detract from the

634
00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:41,400
Speaker 5: fact that US aid and particularly food aid, is like

635
00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:44,480
Speaker 5: a survival matter for tens of millions of people around

636
00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:46,479
Speaker 5: the globe. Right, Like this is one of those things

637
00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:49,120
Speaker 5: when the Republicans are talking about wanting to cut all

638
00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:52,680
Speaker 5: foreign aid that the US gives to basically everyone but Israel.

639
00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:55,280
Speaker 5: What that means when you talk about that, you are

640
00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:59,680
Speaker 5: talking about like starving populations of people larger than most

641
00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:03,600
Speaker 5: major American cities. Because the US is massive, and the

642
00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:07,040
Speaker 5: aid that we give is you know, usually not it's

643
00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:09,840
Speaker 5: not really that significant a chunk of our budget, but

644
00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:12,359
Speaker 5: for the countries, for a lot of countries that receive it,

645
00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:15,200
Speaker 5: it's like critical to survival food aid and medical aid

646
00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:17,640
Speaker 5: that we've given over the years. And I think that

647
00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:21,240
Speaker 5: also gets into like one of the things that's important

648
00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:26,200
Speaker 5: about understanding like how what impact you might have on

649
00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:31,360
Speaker 5: what's going on in Ukraine. You don't have to if

650
00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:33,480
Speaker 5: you have too much of a bad taste in your

651
00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:36,759
Speaker 5: mouth over the idea of supporting US military aid to anywhere.

652
00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:40,040
Speaker 5: There's a lot of aid that's not military that's necessary

653
00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:43,920
Speaker 5: right as you do, Charles. People need medicine right like

654
00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:47,840
Speaker 5: you are having a positive outcome on like the people

655
00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:50,360
Speaker 5: in Ukraine, if you are helping to increase their access

656
00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:54,160
Speaker 5: to food and medicine. And that's not morally complicated. It's

657
00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:57,200
Speaker 5: always there's always some moral complexity in handing out weapons

658
00:34:57,239 --> 00:35:00,759
Speaker 5: around the world. Handing out medication is incredible simple from

659
00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:03,319
Speaker 5: an ethical standpoint, at least from where I. You're never

660
00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:05,839
Speaker 5: a bad guy for giving medicine. It doesn't even matter

661
00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:06,920
Speaker 5: who it's too, Like.

662
00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:10,720
Speaker 4: Well, your bad gut Israel apparently.

663
00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:15,480
Speaker 3: Yes, yes they will drone strike you. But I don't know.

664
00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:18,279
Speaker 5: I think that like one of the nice things as

665
00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:22,879
Speaker 5: an American you don't have to. Realistically, the fight over

666
00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:26,760
Speaker 5: Ukrainian aid right now is primarily something that is happening

667
00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:29,919
Speaker 5: in Congress, and at this exact moment, in that fight,

668
00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:32,239
Speaker 5: there is very little that you or I can do,

669
00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:35,920
Speaker 5: But there is a lot, as you prove, Charles, there

670
00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:38,359
Speaker 5: is a lot that individual people can do to help

671
00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:42,600
Speaker 5: other individual people. You may not have access to a

672
00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:46,000
Speaker 5: HIMR system or any more Bradley tanks to give the Ukrainians,

673
00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:48,600
Speaker 5: although if you do, please please give them over they'll

674
00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:51,200
Speaker 5: appreciate them. But there are a number of ways in

675
00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:53,640
Speaker 5: which you can help, like the actual people suffering on

676
00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:56,400
Speaker 5: the ground. And I think that that's like, that is

677
00:35:56,520 --> 00:35:59,799
Speaker 5: right now what regular people can actually do.

678
00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:03,839
Speaker 4: Yeah, I totally agree. I would push back a little

679
00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:05,560
Speaker 4: bit and saying that there's not a lot that we

680
00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:08,080
Speaker 4: can do in terms of the congressional fund because I

681
00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:12,359
Speaker 4: think that people do. I mean, I remember, from back

682
00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:16,160
Speaker 4: in my time working adjacent to politics, I remember someone

683
00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:18,120
Speaker 4: told me a statistic where it said it took five

684
00:36:18,239 --> 00:36:20,719
Speaker 4: phone calls to an office of a congressman for them

685
00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:25,040
Speaker 4: to rethink their stance on an issue interest. I have

686
00:36:25,120 --> 00:36:30,759
Speaker 4: received texts from aids to congressman Republican and Democrat who

687
00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:34,040
Speaker 4: sit on like House Armed Services Committee or you know,

688
00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:37,479
Speaker 4: Defense and that sort of stuff, saying like, hey, what's

689
00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:40,880
Speaker 4: with this Ukraine? Like what's your take on the Ukraine stuff?

690
00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:42,680
Speaker 4: Should we be giving them all this money? I don't

691
00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:44,480
Speaker 4: really support it, but you went over there, do you

692
00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:45,279
Speaker 4: think they're using it?

693
00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:45,560
Speaker 1: Well?

694
00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:48,359
Speaker 4: And I'm like, holy Holy crap, am I actually getting

695
00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:52,040
Speaker 4: this text? But yes, absolutely, Like, yeah, you need to

696
00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:53,879
Speaker 4: do that, You need to green light whatever, you need

697
00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:55,560
Speaker 4: a green light to send that over there. And I

698
00:36:55,560 --> 00:37:00,279
Speaker 4: think if more people, you know, were, especially now when

699
00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:02,719
Speaker 4: a lot of congress people don't want to engage with

700
00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:05,240
Speaker 4: the gaza issue but are looking for like good wins

701
00:37:05,239 --> 00:37:08,840
Speaker 4: with their constituencies, like get to know your local Ukrainian

702
00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:12,279
Speaker 4: constituency in your area, start a campaign to go to

703
00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:16,160
Speaker 4: the regional office of your congressmen, find out which committees

704
00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:21,200
Speaker 4: they sit on, and pressure them for sending aid to Ukraine.

705
00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:23,640
Speaker 4: I mean that is something you can do. But on

706
00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:27,560
Speaker 4: the individual level, yeah, you can still raise awareness. You

707
00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:32,319
Speaker 4: can connect the decolonial struggle of Ukrainians to that of

708
00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:37,040
Speaker 4: Palestinians and other peoples. Someone who does this extraordinarily well

709
00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:41,839
Speaker 4: is Yulia Timoshenka. Not the Ukrainian politician. She's a young

710
00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:46,120
Speaker 4: Ukrainian influencer and advocate who went to Nyu Abu Dhabi

711
00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:48,799
Speaker 4: and sort of got kind of got pilled on the

712
00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:54,000
Speaker 4: whole Palestine thing and has really eloquently tied the Palestinian

713
00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:58,280
Speaker 4: and Ukrainian struggles together. So you can point people towards

714
00:37:58,680 --> 00:38:01,040
Speaker 4: resources like that and let them know that there are

715
00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:05,200
Speaker 4: at least some people in Ukraine who see that, who

716
00:38:05,239 --> 00:38:07,640
Speaker 4: see that connection. And then you can also, of course,

717
00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:12,080
Speaker 4: you can support humanitarian initiatives in Ukraine very carefully. Please

718
00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:15,440
Speaker 4: just do so very carefully. I would say there's a

719
00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:18,359
Speaker 4: lot of there's a lot of people who went over

720
00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:21,600
Speaker 4: there and started initiatives that were more or less good,

721
00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:24,640
Speaker 4: but mostly kind of ineffective because they did not actually

722
00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:28,600
Speaker 4: engage and include Ukrainians in that process. My role with

723
00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:32,440
Speaker 4: everything involving Ukraine is just like just to ask Ukrainians

724
00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:35,680
Speaker 4: about it, Ask Ukrainians what they need, figure out what

725
00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:37,440
Speaker 4: it is that their priorities are, and make sure that

726
00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:41,080
Speaker 4: you're including them on your philanthropy and your charity. They

727
00:38:41,120 --> 00:38:45,920
Speaker 4: will understand what is most impactful. My organization has experienced

728
00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:50,440
Speaker 4: a lot of success by being entirely run by Ukrainians

729
00:38:50,640 --> 00:38:54,560
Speaker 4: and being based in Arkiv, and as everyone else is

730
00:38:54,560 --> 00:38:58,919
Speaker 4: funding and resources have dried up. Mission Arkiv is being

731
00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:03,040
Speaker 4: handed project from larger NGOs who are leaving the region.

732
00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:07,439
Speaker 4: Because we focused on a local response. It also means

733
00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:10,600
Speaker 4: that you know, donations to organizations like that go farther

734
00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:16,040
Speaker 4: because they're going to higher Ukrainians rather than paying for

735
00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:19,280
Speaker 4: the flights of some Westerner to go back and forth,

736
00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:22,600
Speaker 4: you know, and do a fundraising you know, coming in

737
00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:24,799
Speaker 4: from New York and do a fundraising pitch and go back.

738
00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:28,759
Speaker 4: It's actually going towards This was a commitment I made

739
00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:31,959
Speaker 4: to myself and my partner when I went over there.

740
00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:35,319
Speaker 4: My partner at Mission Harkive was that I was never

741
00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:37,759
Speaker 4: going to expense like a flight or a meal or

742
00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:40,480
Speaker 4: anything to Mission Harkive. So you know, all that's come

743
00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:42,359
Speaker 4: out of my own pocket. And that means that every

744
00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:44,880
Speaker 4: donation that we have gets to go pretty much directly

745
00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:48,279
Speaker 4: into our programs. So you can still do that as

746
00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:51,000
Speaker 4: an individual, you can help in that way. And the

747
00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:54,360
Speaker 4: awareness thing is a huge part people are forgetting Ukrainians

748
00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:57,760
Speaker 4: feel abandoned, like making even just the act of putting

749
00:39:57,800 --> 00:40:01,160
Speaker 4: a Ukrainian flag on your note or like tweeting about

750
00:40:01,200 --> 00:40:03,759
Speaker 4: Ukraine occasionally is seen as such a huge act of

751
00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:06,360
Speaker 4: solidarity at the stage in the game that the Ukrainians

752
00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:07,200
Speaker 4: will love you for it.

753
00:40:08,560 --> 00:40:11,560
Speaker 5: I really love that you bring up the kind of

754
00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:15,239
Speaker 5: pitfalls of and this is this is Ukraine right now

755
00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:18,400
Speaker 5: in particular because it was such a huge international story

756
00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:22,440
Speaker 5: at the start of the expanded invasion, and that always

757
00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:26,040
Speaker 5: brings out not just grifters but also well meaning people

758
00:40:26,160 --> 00:40:29,680
Speaker 5: who are going to raise money and try to start

759
00:40:29,719 --> 00:40:32,120
Speaker 5: initiatives in that country that may not be doing it

760
00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:35,040
Speaker 5: in the most cost effective way possible. And I really

761
00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:38,600
Speaker 5: like what you said about, like the importance of verifying

762
00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:42,400
Speaker 5: that where you are supporting is not just doing the work,

763
00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:44,560
Speaker 5: but is like doing the work in the best way possible.

764
00:40:44,600 --> 00:40:46,719
Speaker 5: And one of like the really important things to look

765
00:40:46,719 --> 00:40:48,319
Speaker 5: at for is like, well, how much money are they

766
00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:50,880
Speaker 5: spending on sending Westerners to and from this place?

767
00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:51,200
Speaker 3: Right?

768
00:40:51,360 --> 00:40:54,400
Speaker 5: It's one thing if like it's an area that lacks

769
00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:57,520
Speaker 5: access to medical professionals and they're flying out medical professionals

770
00:40:57,560 --> 00:40:59,759
Speaker 5: to do like trauma work or whatever, Like, there's really

771
00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:03,319
Speaker 5: like that's obviously important, but this is something that like

772
00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:06,760
Speaker 5: a lot of my friends in Iraq and Syria also experienced,

773
00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:10,279
Speaker 5: like the frustration of like NGO workers staying in nice

774
00:41:10,280 --> 00:41:13,480
Speaker 5: hotels and driving you know, fancy vehicles where there were

775
00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:17,600
Speaker 5: local organizations doing things like maintaining refugee camps that needed

776
00:41:17,600 --> 00:41:21,359
Speaker 5: the support. I think that's always really important to try

777
00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:24,719
Speaker 5: to do your research so that the support you give,

778
00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:27,200
Speaker 5: the awareness you raise, and the money that you donate

779
00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:29,640
Speaker 5: actually goes where it needs to get I think.

780
00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:32,680
Speaker 4: I mean that opens a whole broad category of maybe

781
00:41:32,680 --> 00:41:34,799
Speaker 4: this is a subset essay waiting to happen. But I've

782
00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:36,879
Speaker 4: been playing with this idea of like the idea of

783
00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:42,759
Speaker 4: conflict vultures, these people who sort of descend on a

784
00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:48,280
Speaker 4: conflict or a disaster zone for a variety of reasons.

785
00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:50,600
Speaker 4: You know, maybe it's fundraising. Maybe they work for a

786
00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:52,359
Speaker 4: big NGO and this helps get them in the news,

787
00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:54,399
Speaker 4: so they fly themselves out there. Maybe it's a war

788
00:41:54,520 --> 00:41:56,880
Speaker 4: and they want to be a hero where they want

789
00:41:56,880 --> 00:41:58,719
Speaker 4: to present themselves as a hero, and they end up

790
00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:00,760
Speaker 4: raising a bunch of money for their quick and stuff

791
00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:03,239
Speaker 4: and then stay far away from the fighting line, living

792
00:42:03,239 --> 00:42:06,000
Speaker 4: in nice hotels like you said, Or maybe it is

793
00:42:06,080 --> 00:42:08,520
Speaker 4: like you said, well, meeting people who just take up

794
00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:11,480
Speaker 4: air from the people who need it and take up

795
00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:14,680
Speaker 4: they're like sponges that just absorb all this Western energy

796
00:42:14,719 --> 00:42:18,880
Speaker 4: because they're they're a relatable face. And I've encountered all

797
00:42:18,960 --> 00:42:22,040
Speaker 4: of those people in Ukraine. The reason I went to

798
00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:24,400
Speaker 4: Ukraine is because I was like, if I'm going to

799
00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:27,960
Speaker 4: fundraise for this initiative. People are going to give more,

800
00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:30,600
Speaker 4: They're gonna be more invested if they see an English

801
00:42:30,680 --> 00:42:34,719
Speaker 4: speaking American talking to them about this stuff. But I

802
00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:37,760
Speaker 4: came in with the perspective that I can't be centering

803
00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:41,440
Speaker 4: myself on this. The idea is to deflect onto what

804
00:42:41,480 --> 00:42:44,560
Speaker 4: the Ukrainians are doing and elevate their stories rather than

805
00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:48,840
Speaker 4: saying I'm here, I'm posing with the Bakhmut entrance sign.

806
00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:54,520
Speaker 4: I just delivered seven muffins and a generator to like

807
00:42:55,000 --> 00:42:57,799
Speaker 4: a place that was cleared out by the Ukrainians, you know,

808
00:42:57,920 --> 00:43:02,480
Speaker 4: six months previously. It's more like, Okay, how do you

809
00:43:02,960 --> 00:43:06,279
Speaker 4: take Americans are very generous people, how do you take

810
00:43:06,320 --> 00:43:10,160
Speaker 4: American philanthropy, American dollars, American wallets and directed towards the

811
00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:13,200
Speaker 4: people who are actually going to change, who usually are

812
00:43:13,200 --> 00:43:17,880
Speaker 4: not Americans. These large NGOs, they serve a purpose, The

813
00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:23,040
Speaker 4: UN serves a purpose. Doctors without Borders, direct relief, you know,

814
00:43:23,080 --> 00:43:25,799
Speaker 4: World Central Kitchen. They do a great job in like

815
00:43:25,840 --> 00:43:29,640
Speaker 4: a specific thing. But a lot of times, if you're

816
00:43:29,680 --> 00:43:32,279
Speaker 4: giving to the United Nations or you're giving to one

817
00:43:32,320 --> 00:43:34,560
Speaker 4: of these big NGOs, that sets a fundraiser in the

818
00:43:34,600 --> 00:43:37,920
Speaker 4: immediate aftermath of something. Your money is going to remodel

819
00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:41,239
Speaker 4: an office in Rome or New York or Washington, DC,

820
00:43:42,320 --> 00:43:45,480
Speaker 4: and you're not really reaching the people that you're trying

821
00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:48,239
Speaker 4: to help. And I think if more Americans understood that,

822
00:43:48,280 --> 00:43:50,920
Speaker 4: they'd be more responsible with sort of how they spend

823
00:43:50,960 --> 00:43:52,680
Speaker 4: their money in a philanthropic sense.

824
00:43:53,239 --> 00:43:56,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, Charles, you have been awesome. Thank you so much

825
00:43:56,640 --> 00:44:00,760
Speaker 2: for coming on in telling us your experience. And yeah,

826
00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:02,799
Speaker 2: where can people find you on the internet if you

827
00:44:02,840 --> 00:44:03,840
Speaker 2: want to be found?

828
00:44:05,880 --> 00:44:07,799
Speaker 4: Some I go back and forth. Sometimes I don't want

829
00:44:07,840 --> 00:44:10,200
Speaker 4: to be found and sometimes I do. But you can

830
00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:14,600
Speaker 4: find me pretty much everywhere with at Charles McBride that's

831
00:44:14,719 --> 00:44:17,840
Speaker 4: McBride with a Y, except on Twitter at random, I

832
00:44:17,840 --> 00:44:20,839
Speaker 4: don't have that handle. And then I just launched a

833
00:44:20,880 --> 00:44:24,719
Speaker 4: sub stack, which is I guess Charles McBride dot substack

834
00:44:24,880 --> 00:44:28,000
Speaker 4: dot com, and that's where we'll be. I'm kind of

835
00:44:28,040 --> 00:44:31,520
Speaker 4: shifting towards more long form content to write about my

836
00:44:31,600 --> 00:44:36,520
Speaker 4: experiences with these things and sort of a more digestible

837
00:44:36,920 --> 00:44:40,200
Speaker 4: long form wave people engaging with important issues like this.

838
00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:44,920
Speaker 4: Oh and if you're interested in the organization I help

839
00:44:44,960 --> 00:44:48,719
Speaker 4: set up in Ukraine. It is mission dot harkive on

840
00:44:48,760 --> 00:44:51,480
Speaker 4: Instagram or missionharkive dot com.

841
00:44:52,160 --> 00:44:53,840
Speaker 2: And I could put all the infoon in the description

842
00:44:54,040 --> 00:44:57,279
Speaker 2: for yes, listeners and everything, but yeah.

843
00:44:57,200 --> 00:45:00,839
Speaker 3: Sweet excellent Charles. Yeah to Charlesbeth.

844
00:45:00,920 --> 00:45:08,320
Speaker 4: Thank you guys. I appreciate it.

845
00:45:08,320 --> 00:45:10,680
Speaker 1: It could happen here as a production of cool Zone Media.

846
00:45:10,880 --> 00:45:13,560
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

847
00:45:13,600 --> 00:45:16,719
Speaker 1: coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

848
00:45:16,760 --> 00:45:19,920
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can

849
00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:22,640
Speaker 1: find sources for It could Happen Here, updated monthly at

850
00:45:22,680 --> 00:45:25,920
Speaker 1: coolzonemedia dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.