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Speaker 1: Hey, everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome back to work in progress.

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Speaker 1: Where do the New York Times bestseller list, rock and

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Speaker 1: roll and award winning comedy intersect Wherever today's work in

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Speaker 1: progress guest happens to be. Carrie Brownstein is a name

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Speaker 1: you probably recognize most from the Emmy and Peabody Award

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Speaker 1: winning sketch series Portlandia, which she wrote and starred in

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Speaker 1: alongside Fred Armison. But before and after that, Carry has

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Speaker 1: done equally groundbreaking work and an entirely different artistic areas.

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Speaker 1: She was a hard rocking riot girl as a band

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Speaker 1: member of Slater Kinney and a critically acclaimed memoir writer.

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Speaker 1: And now she's written and starred in a genre bending

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Speaker 1: film called The Nowhere, in which was released in September.

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Speaker 1: I think Carrie is a really fascinating individual. I am

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Speaker 1: such an enormous fan of her work and her brain,

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Speaker 1: and I am betting that as you get to know

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Speaker 1: her better over the course of this interview, you all

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Speaker 1: will feel the same. So let's get to it. How

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Speaker 1: have you been, How how's your how's your pandemic year

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Speaker 1: and a half gone? Uh? It's been okay, you know.

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Speaker 1: I feel lucky. People in my family were safe and

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Speaker 1: no one really got too sick, but you know, it

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Speaker 1: was also hard, just a lot of experiences becoming sort

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Speaker 1: of muted and strange, and then this search for the

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Speaker 1: return to normalcy, but then realizing that perhaps that's sort

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Speaker 1: of a fallacy, like just normal as a concept seems

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Speaker 1: to be slipping away, and then also like what of

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Speaker 1: normal do we want to hold onto. I just feel

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Speaker 1: like I went into the same or similar existential crisis

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Speaker 1: as anyone. But I also I'm an introvert. There are

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Speaker 1: things about it that aligned with how I am as

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Speaker 1: a human in terms of just the insularity. So that

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Speaker 1: was nice after a while, Like after I you know,

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Speaker 1: when we got past the point of thinking like, well,

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Speaker 1: we're all done for then I was like, okay, I

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Speaker 1: guess certain parts of this are good for contemplation. Yeah, um,

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Speaker 1: what about you? I think what was interesting for me.

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Speaker 1: I'm kind of a community animal. I always joke that,

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Speaker 1: like I'm a puppy, and my best friend as a cat,

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Speaker 1: she is she's like up on the shelf, leans back,

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Speaker 1: checks things out, it's very quiet, observes, and I like,

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Speaker 1: I want to be right in a pile of all

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Speaker 1: the bodies cuddling, and I've really I realized I'm actually

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Speaker 1: much more introverted than I understood. And I think I

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Speaker 1: think I I love community, you know, and in some

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Speaker 1: of what we do and making stuff with other people,

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Speaker 1: I love the collaboration. And I actually think I need

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Speaker 1: a lot more quiet time than I've ever realized because

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Speaker 1: I'm always on set. And so I've been like, I

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Speaker 1: love this, this is what I'm the best at. And

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Speaker 1: and I spent so much time at home, and there

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Speaker 1: was I'll never forget a week where my partner looked

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Speaker 1: at me and he was like, hey, honey, I don't

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Speaker 1: think you've been outside the front door in five days,

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Speaker 1: and I think maybe we should go for a walk.

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Speaker 1: And I was like, oh, I'm really I'm hermiting hard,

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Speaker 1: aren't I. Okay, let's go outside. Yeah, you can definitely

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Speaker 1: go into the other stream. But I do agree because

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Speaker 1: so much of the work we do is collaborative, and

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Speaker 1: I think I have gotten accustomed to that kind of

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Speaker 1: communication and togetherness where it's very productive, we're all working

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Speaker 1: towards the same goal. But then at the end, I

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Speaker 1: feel at the end of the day like very sort

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Speaker 1: of fulfilled and edified and socially as well as creatively.

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Speaker 1: But I think that's actually my preferred mode of socializing.

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Speaker 1: I realized it doesn't have to be work related, but

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Speaker 1: when we're all like kind of working towards something. So

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Speaker 1: maybe I like structured, structured activities like like just an

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Speaker 1: kind of like an aimless Like I get social anxiety

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Speaker 1: around like a dinner party that's not close friends, you

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Speaker 1: know where I'm just like, I don't know what the

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Speaker 1: expectations are, and those things all went to the wayside

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Speaker 1: during the pandemic, So I haven't been to an awkward

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Speaker 1: dinner party or event. In many industries, including ours, there's

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Speaker 1: things called events, which not everyone has, like not every

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Speaker 1: industry has an event, but many do. And I'm like, oh,

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Speaker 1: I haven't had to do an event, Like what is

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Speaker 1: an event? You know what I mean? Like it's just

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Speaker 1: so much pageantry, like all these things that I kind

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Speaker 1: of do not miss. I get such terrible anxiety at

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Speaker 1: those things. Yeah, for sure, So there has been some

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Speaker 1: clear it's been clarifying. I guess to just think, like

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Speaker 1: who are my people and or this is the kind

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Speaker 1: of interactions I want slightly more, slightly more intimate or

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Speaker 1: just like, I don't know, not a bunch of superfluous

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Speaker 1: things where I have to navigate all the unknowns, which

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Speaker 1: makes you sound adverse to like new experiences, which I

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Speaker 1: don't think I am. But I definitely get more anticipatory

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Speaker 1: anxiety around new experiences. I get that. I mean, I

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Speaker 1: don't know. I'm not a doctor. I feel like that's

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Speaker 1: pretty normal. I think for me, it's part of the

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Speaker 1: reason that I've leaned into this medium because I really love, Like,

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Speaker 1: the thing I love about a dinner party is that

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Speaker 1: you can sit for hours and talk to someone I

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Speaker 1: don't know how to do the the events small talk.

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Speaker 1: I'm like, what are people here talking about? What? What's

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Speaker 1: on your insides? What do you believe in? Not an

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Speaker 1: appropriate event question? Okay, see, like I don't know. So

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Speaker 1: I think I've I've laved into this because they're even

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Speaker 1: through a screen, being able to sit with someone and

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Speaker 1: really dive into their thoughts and what makes them tick

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Speaker 1: and why they make the things they make. It feels

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Speaker 1: so luxurious and and yeah and safely intimate in a way. Yeah, well,

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Speaker 1: there's sort of a it's boundary. Still, this this small

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Speaker 1: talk thing really makes me anxious, Like I I wish,

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Speaker 1: and I think everyone, even people that are good at

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Speaker 1: small talk, just wish there was like a little button

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Speaker 1: or something that you could like, I don't know how

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Speaker 1: to extricate myself where you just you're like, okay, we've

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Speaker 1: talked whether sports, whatever else, I think these categories, and

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Speaker 1: then you're like we're done. Usually I'm just like I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna go, and I always say like I'm gonna go

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Speaker 1: to the bathroom, I'm gonna go get a drink. And

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Speaker 1: then you just it's a taskit agreement that you're never

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Speaker 1: going to come back to that person, which is so

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Speaker 1: awkward and it's not about them and people have done

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Speaker 1: it to me, but you just you don't know how

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Speaker 1: to like start or end those things. At the end

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Speaker 1: of those nights, I come home and I'm like, did

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Speaker 1: I talk to anyone? Like it's just such a blur. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so yeah, this is better. Well I'm glad. I I

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Speaker 1: think of this is the proverbial At the party, you

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Speaker 1: find your friends in the corner with the tequila and

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Speaker 1: you're like, we're good. Yeah, you know. The thing we

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Speaker 1: all hung out in Austin was kind of like that.

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Speaker 1: It was like, oh, hey, you're new, but we're in

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Speaker 1: the corner and you're good. Yeah that was That was

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Speaker 1: fun and a little more like friend base than well

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Speaker 1: it's a birthday party. Yeah. So Carrie, I'm so curious

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Speaker 1: to to kind of dive in with you. And I

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Speaker 1: realized we're just chatting and there's people at home being like,

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Speaker 1: we have questions and I feel like I should get

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Speaker 1: to some of those, but I always I like to

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Speaker 1: go back with people first, because you know, I would

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Speaker 1: imagine that for your fans who are listening to this.

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Speaker 1: I know that for me as a fan, Like when

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Speaker 1: I first met like Oli Riscaracout, she's so cool. Um,

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Speaker 1: you make you are you really are. You're you're such

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Speaker 1: a talented performer, and you're a writer, and you're a director,

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Speaker 1: and you're a musician and and you have such a

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Speaker 1: like fascinating story. But I think the thing that has

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Speaker 1: always really made me curious about the way you work

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Speaker 1: is the way that you also tell other people's stories.

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Speaker 1: You know, you you've really created this like delicious world

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Speaker 1: that's so rich. There's so many um kind of textures

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Speaker 1: in your work and whether it's Portlandia, you know, winning

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Speaker 1: a Peabody or Slater Kenny or your book. I I'm

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Speaker 1: curious for all of us who look at you now,

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Speaker 1: is this woman with this amazing kind of laundry list

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Speaker 1: of accomplishments and projects? Where did the creative process begin? Like, like,

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Speaker 1: was Carrie as a little girl an introverted and curious

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Speaker 1: person or were you totally different? Yeah, I don't know

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Speaker 1: if I would call myself an introvert. As a kid,

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Speaker 1: I think I was a little more outgoing. Well, I'll

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Speaker 1: just say I think often what happens as you get older,

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Speaker 1: as you sort of if you have sort of a

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Speaker 1: performer side of yourself, which I do and obviously you do,

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Speaker 1: like you, you kind of compartmentalize that, you know a

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Speaker 1: little bit, because there's certain energy that you use for that.

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Speaker 1: And so I think I love being on stage or

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Speaker 1: doing things like that, or doing a reading or something.

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Speaker 1: But then I think in the rest of my life

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Speaker 1: I feel a little more not closed off, just like private.

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Speaker 1: But as a kid, I really I loved that as

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Speaker 1: a way of performing, as a way of interacting with

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Speaker 1: my friends, Like I was always trying to get them,

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Speaker 1: like rope them in like the neighbor, you know, before

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Speaker 1: you get to middle school, where you just kind of

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Speaker 1: if you live around in a neighborhood where you hang

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Speaker 1: out with other people, it's like you just just kind

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Speaker 1: of a group of like ragtag neighborhood kids. And I

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Speaker 1: would always be like, we should be putting on a

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Speaker 1: play and everyone would be like yeah, and then I

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Speaker 1: would like assiduously like sit down and start working on it,

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Speaker 1: and like two hours later everyone else was like, wholl

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Speaker 1: We're bored. Like people would lose interest, but I'd be

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Speaker 1: like always sort of the ringleader of let's put on

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Speaker 1: this talent show, let's put on this play. And I'm

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Speaker 1: sure it was a little bit annoying but for like them,

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Speaker 1: but I really enjoyed it as a way of being

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Speaker 1: around other people. So yeah, I think it started as

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Speaker 1: just a way of, yeah, of relating and interacting in

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Speaker 1: a way that felt um like more not even in control,

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Speaker 1: because I think that's something I ascribed to it later,

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Speaker 1: taking a slightly chaotic childhood and figuring out a way

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Speaker 1: of like navigating it. But I think at the time

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Speaker 1: I wasn't conscious of that. I think I was just like,

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Speaker 1: this is a way of being in the world that

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Speaker 1: I feel comfortable and can kind of step outside myself

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Speaker 1: a little bit. So it was it was that first

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Speaker 1: and then and I also really liked writing as a kid.

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Speaker 1: Did the interest in writing come from being a big reader.

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Speaker 1: I wasn't really actually a big reader until college. Like

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Speaker 1: I read, but I didn't become bookish until later. And

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Speaker 1: then I went back and was like, oh, here's all

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Speaker 1: the books that my high school English teachers just told

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Speaker 1: me that I should read. That I was just skimming

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Speaker 1: through in order to write the paper. But now I'll

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Speaker 1: actually read these books. I think I was more interested

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Speaker 1: in film as a kid, Like I loved movies, and

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Speaker 1: I really I was very nerdy, like collect you know,

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Speaker 1: remember there was this magazine, Premier Magazine. It was like

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Speaker 1: the movie magazine like in the eighties, and you know,

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Speaker 1: I asked my parents for a subscription to Premiere and

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Speaker 1: I would why I don't remember if it was. I

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Speaker 1: think it was called Turner Classic Movies. Even then, I

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Speaker 1: would like VCR, you know, like we're having a Betty

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Speaker 1: Davis film festival this weekend. Even like when I was

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Speaker 1: thirteen or fourteen, I would record and I'd be watching

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Speaker 1: like Dark Victory or something or like these weird old

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Speaker 1: like Betty Davis movies, and I would get biographies of

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Speaker 1: James Dean and and like Marlena Dietrich, like I just

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Speaker 1: it was very anachronistic to what was actually happening in

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Speaker 1: the you know, this was not what was actually showing

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Speaker 1: in the nineteen eighties, and this is one of the

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Speaker 1: popular music. But I really dove into this past, and

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Speaker 1: so a lot of my writing I think came out

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Speaker 1: of just this imagination that that films presented to me,

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Speaker 1: and then later read some great literature and realized, oh,

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Speaker 1: this is a vast world to explore. It's interesting thinking

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Speaker 1: about that because when you talk about loving to put

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Speaker 1: these plays on and kind of being the organizer, and

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Speaker 1: I think fact what you were saying in the beginning,

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Speaker 1: you know, even about what this year's revealed, how nice

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Speaker 1: it is to just have an understanding of the expectation.

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Speaker 1: I think about it as you know, you're either like

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Speaker 1: dumping water on the floor or you're putting it in

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Speaker 1: a container. I just love a container because I know

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Speaker 1: what it is. And I think about this little girl

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Speaker 1: version of you being like, here is the container for

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Speaker 1: our experience and fun, and we will make a version

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Speaker 1: of a movie it's so Tracy Flick. It really is. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: It's like, why am I trying to like heard cats here?

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Speaker 1: Like these are other kids? I don't want that, but

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Speaker 1: I did. Yeah. I liked the formality of it. Like

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Speaker 1: to me, it helped make sense of something and provide

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Speaker 1: some structure. Ye, well, it gives you a structure. And interestingly,

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Speaker 1: the structure allows you then to have a goal. You're

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Speaker 1: not just playing, You're making a thing. You have a goal.

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Speaker 1: And I don't know, I I get that. I am

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Speaker 1: deeply relating to that in this moment. I think it's

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Speaker 1: why I loved as a kid. I loved camp so

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Speaker 1: much because we got to be a ragtag bunch of kids,

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Speaker 1: but every day there was an activity. I knew what

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Speaker 1: I was supposed to do. I knew what I was

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Speaker 1: meant to achieve. I stayed there, you know, as I

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Speaker 1: got older, and eventually, like you know, became a counselor

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Speaker 1: in training in a camp. I love it. I loved

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Speaker 1: being a camp counselor. I was like, this is the

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Speaker 1: thing I am the best at. Plus there's a song

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Speaker 1: like I still rememb a camp song saying I have

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Speaker 1: my camp blanket from my five year I'm like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm deeply nostalgic for it. Where did you grow up?

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Speaker 1: I grew up in southern California, but I went to

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Speaker 1: camp up in the Sierra National Forest every summer and

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Speaker 1: just amazing, loved it, loved it. What about you? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I grew up outside Seattle, and the camp I went

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Speaker 1: to was on in the San Juan Islands, which are amazing,

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Speaker 1: and it was on Orcas Island, and yeah, just very

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Speaker 1: lots of things that I don't know if your camp

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Speaker 1: experience was like this, but certainly a lot of things

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Speaker 1: that kids today would not be able to do, like

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Speaker 1: archery or also shooting rifles, just like a fifteen or

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Speaker 1: sixteen year old camp counselor asking us all to lie

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Speaker 1: down on these cots and then we would like load

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Speaker 1: our little guns and shoot, and no one like thought

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Speaker 1: anything of it. No one thought like, well, this could

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Speaker 1: be dangerous. We just shot at the target and then

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Speaker 1: went on our way and then went onto the next thing,

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Speaker 1: which is like canoeing or making some kind of lanyard.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, and I'm not romanticizing it, and I'm just

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Speaker 1: certainly saying definitely different than camp right now, no one's

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Speaker 1: shooting guns at camp. It is so different, and you

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Speaker 1: think about the generational gap. I mean, fun fact, I

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Speaker 1: started going to camp when I was nine. I loved

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Speaker 1: rifle e and my dad grew up in Montreal, Canada,

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Speaker 1: but literally spent every summer of his childhood on the

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Speaker 1: family farm on the St. Lawrence River, And so my

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Speaker 1: dad remembers when he got his first twenty two rifle

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Speaker 1: when he was twelve. So I would like come home

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Speaker 1: from camp with my little sharpshooter targets like, guys, look,

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Speaker 1: I'm getting really good at this and um. And so

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Speaker 1: I got a little twenty two rifle when I turned

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Speaker 1: twelve from my dad. And I don't know if you'd

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Speaker 1: be allowed to do that now, but I don't know.

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Speaker 1: We we really loved it. That was kind of right thing.

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Speaker 1: I think in other parts of the country. And if

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Speaker 1: you have listeners that are in Montana or Wyoming, which

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Speaker 1: I assume you probably do, they're probably like, oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: because I feel like every once in a while, it's

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Speaker 1: it's easy to like, you know, when we're on like

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Speaker 1: the West coast or you know, in the big cities

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Speaker 1: on the East coast, I think no one's out shooting,

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Speaker 1: but it is traditional as like sport and hunting, you know,

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Speaker 1: our I think our association with guns is obviously rightly

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Speaker 1: so pretty dark, but there's sort of another aspect to it,

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Speaker 1: like you're talking about with your dad. Yeah, that that's

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Speaker 1: what kind of what I wish we could go back to.

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Speaker 1: As were having these debates, I'm like, well, if we

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Speaker 1: could take all the dark scarry and the you know,

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Speaker 1: weapons of war out of it, I think kids at

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Speaker 1: the range with their parents is great. I loved it.

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Speaker 1: And and yeah, I think we forget you know, if

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Speaker 1: you live in any version of a sort of dense

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Speaker 1: city or town, you're not like in the backyard doing

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Speaker 1: target practice with a rifle or a bow and arrow.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, when you get out into you know, more

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Speaker 1: rural zones, farm towns, I mean I could I spent

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Speaker 1: half my childhood life in a town of five thousand people,

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Speaker 1: like there were far more cattle than people in our town,

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Speaker 1: and so that in southern California, in central California, and yeah,

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Speaker 1: that was just like what we did big Friday night

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Speaker 1: was like We're going to the creek to catch frons

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Speaker 1: and it was so fun and I loved it and

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Speaker 1: so I, yeah, of course, there's different different activities when

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Speaker 1: you're out and about. I think about a kid in

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Speaker 1: Seattle aside from the beauty of the Pacific Northwest and oh,

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Speaker 1: my god, Or Island is the prettiest place I've ever been.

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Speaker 1: But you talk about how your movie taste was very

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Speaker 1: nostalgic for the past, despite the era that you were

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Speaker 1: growing up in. Was was your musical taste influenced by,

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Speaker 1: you know, the iconic era of grunge coming up in

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Speaker 1: Seattle are different. No, it definitely was. I mean, I

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Speaker 1: think concurrent with going back to the golden age of film.

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Speaker 1: My musical taste in the eighties was squarely in the

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Speaker 1: pop world, which was just you couldn't avoid it, you know,

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Speaker 1: all Madonna and Michael Jackson and George Michael and just

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Speaker 1: the biggest stars. But then when I entered high school

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Speaker 1: and segued from awkward trying to kind of hang on

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Speaker 1: to some identity that was never going to suit me,

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Speaker 1: which was just like following around more popular kids, um,

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Speaker 1: and just not knowing who I was. I was like,

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Speaker 1: who are these much more interesting kids? And um, this

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Speaker 1: is probably when I was fifteen, like ninth grade. Basically

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Speaker 1: and they were called because it was before alternative was

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Speaker 1: a word, you know, like alternative sort of came around,

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Speaker 1: like with Nirvana, So all these different little niche groups

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Speaker 1: had to kind of bond together. So you have like

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Speaker 1: the goths, the metal kids. At my school, they were

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Speaker 1: called bat Cavers, which is kind of an amalgamation, yeah,

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Speaker 1: very much a vibe definitely an amalgamation of like goths

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Speaker 1: and punks. So I was very taken by them because

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Speaker 1: they just seemed super cool, and I had just started

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Speaker 1: getting into first older punk music, but there was all

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Speaker 1: this stuff happening in Seattle and kind of like Nirvana,

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Speaker 1: let's see what they have exist They Bleach had come out,

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Speaker 1: but there were sort of these earlier Seattle bands, like

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Speaker 1: this band called Green River, which I think had someone

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Speaker 1: from mud Honey in it, and there was mud Honey

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Speaker 1: and this band called the fast Backs, and there was

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Speaker 1: Yeah Skycris Mary or sort of like the local goth band.

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Speaker 1: So that was all kind of percolating. And then at

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Speaker 1: the same time, there's all this music coming out of Olympia.

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Speaker 1: So one of my friends, who was a little more

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Speaker 1: in the know, was like, oh, there's also this music

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Speaker 1: in Olympia's beat happening in Bikini Kill, and so, yeah,

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Speaker 1: all of a sudden, this whole region was like vibrating

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Speaker 1: with a real urgency. And then I was completely on

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Speaker 1: board and at the same time like going to record

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Speaker 1: stores and being like, well, who are all the predecessors

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Speaker 1: to these bands? And you know, discovering earlier forms of

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Speaker 1: punk out of like New York or l A. So

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Speaker 1: it was a real time of discovery for me. Oh

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Speaker 1: that's so special. I feel like you need to hang

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Speaker 1: out with my best friend Kenny. He's a photographer and

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Speaker 1: he makes music videos and he literally grew up like

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Speaker 1: you know, sixteen inch mohaw plane punk shows in the

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Speaker 1: sewers of San Diego. San Diego definitely had a punk seen.

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Speaker 1: The whole southern California scene was pretty wild. Yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: pretty wild. And I just think about this sort of

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Speaker 1: historical education, you know, in the ten plus years that

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Speaker 1: we've been friends, like going through albums of all the

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Speaker 1: old punk flyers and seeing the way people used to

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Speaker 1: press their stuff, and I don't know, I I have

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Speaker 1: a nostalgia for it, even though I didn't grow up

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Speaker 1: around it. I just think it's so cool. I think

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Speaker 1: young people especially figuring out where to put their angst

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Speaker 1: and like finding an identity. You also in the corner.

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Speaker 1: Maybe that's why I like it so much now, because

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Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, I'm a corner person. I like to

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Speaker 1: be in the corner, and I just I love this

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Speaker 1: sort of energy of it and the high tension and

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Speaker 1: the exploration of it. You've You've mentioned in some other

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Speaker 1: interviews that you know, growing up, you like bounced around

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Speaker 1: before you found your interest. You know, you tried this,

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Speaker 1: and you tried that, and then you found the guitar.

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Speaker 1: Was that also in this era or did that come

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Speaker 1: later in school? No, it was in this era. So

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Speaker 1: in addition to all this, so we were in the suburbs.

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Speaker 1: We were like fifteen twenty minutes outside of Seattle, So

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Speaker 1: you know, the big city. When you're in the excerbs

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Speaker 1: or suburbs, it's just like this beacon of coolness and

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Speaker 1: it's urbane and sort of forbidden, especially if you're young

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Speaker 1: and your parents are like, no, you're not riding with

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Speaker 1: a bunch of kids in the city. So there was

395
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Speaker 1: just always this alure. So what often happens is kids

396
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Speaker 1: form their own bands. So in my high school kids

397
00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:45,040
Speaker 1: started playing music because we weren't fully allowed to engage

398
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Speaker 1: with like Seattle, because we were right on the edge

399
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Speaker 1: of being too young, or we literally were too young

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Speaker 1: to go to bar shows. So this kid Jeremy Enoch

401
00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:56,760
Speaker 1: who ended up being in Sunny Day Real Estate, and

402
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Speaker 1: then this guy William Goldsmith who was the first drum

403
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Speaker 1: and the food Fighters, Like, these guys were in the

404
00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:05,399
Speaker 1: scene and they had their own early bands, so we

405
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Speaker 1: would go and watch them, and eventually I just thought like,

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Speaker 1: I want to play guitar too, And then there wasn't

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Speaker 1: really it was a fairly It wasn't like a guy's

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Speaker 1: only seen or anything like that. But I so I

409
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Speaker 1: didn't feel left out of it in that way. But

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Speaker 1: I just knew I didn't want to just be on

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Speaker 1: the periphery observing. It felt like a form I wanted

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Speaker 1: to explore because it seemed very immediate, especially rudimentary punk.

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Speaker 1: You know, you're like, I don't need to know that much,

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Speaker 1: just a couple of chords and some anger and just

415
00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:44,960
Speaker 1: mesh the two together. So yeah, I convinced my parents,

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Speaker 1: and I think what you're referring to is, yeah, like that,

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Speaker 1: my parents were a little hesitant at first because they're like, oh,

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Speaker 1: kids go through phases like you know, you want the

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Speaker 1: roller blades or you want the cool new bike or whatever.

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Speaker 1: And I think my parents were like, I'm not gonna

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Speaker 1: vest in this if you're not really gonna play. So

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Speaker 1: it was one of the first things, actually the first

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Speaker 1: thing of value that I had to earn money to buy.

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Speaker 1: So I worked at a movie theater on the weekends

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Speaker 1: and saved up money to to buy a little cherry

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Speaker 1: red epiphone guitar. It was a epiphone copy of a

427
00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:23,080
Speaker 1: of a stratocaster, and I think because I bought it myself,

428
00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:27,359
Speaker 1: the relationship to it was much different. It wasn't something

429
00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:31,240
Speaker 1: filtered through my parents or that it didn't It also

430
00:24:31,280 --> 00:24:34,199
Speaker 1: didn't feel like a kid thing, you know. There was

431
00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:38,320
Speaker 1: something that felt like very empowering about just knowing now,

432
00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:42,120
Speaker 1: this is this is my first tool to like express

433
00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:44,840
Speaker 1: myself that isn't just I don't know, part of my

434
00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:47,280
Speaker 1: childhood like this. It felt like a through line to

435
00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:50,879
Speaker 1: adulthood and I really dove into it. So, yeah, that

436
00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:56,080
Speaker 1: was definitely fun and I opening and really exhilarating to

437
00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:58,240
Speaker 1: listen to music and then try to figure it out

438
00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:00,840
Speaker 1: and take the few chords I knew at the beginning

439
00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:03,400
Speaker 1: and see how many songs I could write with four

440
00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:07,119
Speaker 1: or five chords. And then how do you begin to learn?

441
00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:10,000
Speaker 1: How do you get better? Is it with other kids

442
00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:13,960
Speaker 1: or did you start seeking out lessons? Yeah, So Jeremy

443
00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:17,679
Speaker 1: um who I mentioned from Sundayday Real Estate, although that

444
00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:19,640
Speaker 1: wasn't his band at the time, he was a little

445
00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:22,119
Speaker 1: bit of our like wonder kind in school, Like he

446
00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:24,960
Speaker 1: could just you know, pick up a guitar and play.

447
00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:27,959
Speaker 1: At the time, it was like Snade O'Connor and like

448
00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:31,080
Speaker 1: r E. M. Automatic for the people had just come

449
00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:34,800
Speaker 1: out and certain some you I don't remember what the

450
00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:37,679
Speaker 1: YouTube album was at the time, probably rattling hum or something,

451
00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:40,120
Speaker 1: you know, and he would just sit and play like, oh,

452
00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:42,080
Speaker 1: here's the Shenado O'Connor song. Most of this A lot

453
00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:43,920
Speaker 1: of songs on I do not want when I haven't

454
00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:46,280
Speaker 1: got are just two or three chords. So he would

455
00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:48,280
Speaker 1: just say like, this is the last day of our

456
00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:51,200
Speaker 1: acquaintance at these two chords, and I was like okay,

457
00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:53,720
Speaker 1: So he would just show me. He just basically showed

458
00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:56,840
Speaker 1: me a few chords and I just went from there.

459
00:25:56,880 --> 00:26:00,680
Speaker 1: I never took formal lessons, and in fact, kind of

460
00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:04,639
Speaker 1: in retrospect, as I started meeting more people in music

461
00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:07,399
Speaker 1: who did have formal training, I was sort of gleaned

462
00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:09,919
Speaker 1: from them. And there's always a debate, and there's no

463
00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:11,520
Speaker 1: right or wrong, but you know, you have the people

464
00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:13,280
Speaker 1: who have been formally trained and the people who are

465
00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:15,720
Speaker 1: self taught, and everyone wants a little bit of the

466
00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:18,040
Speaker 1: other thing. You know. People that have been through tons

467
00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:20,800
Speaker 1: of music theory are like, well, you the whole point is,

468
00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:23,040
Speaker 1: then you have to forget everything. But people who never

469
00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:24,720
Speaker 1: went through that are like, but I wish I could

470
00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:27,760
Speaker 1: grasp you know. So anyway, I did kind of go

471
00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:30,760
Speaker 1: back later and learn things. And I had taken piano lessons,

472
00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:34,399
Speaker 1: so I do know notes and scales and stuff like that,

473
00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:39,000
Speaker 1: so I had some understanding of of what music was

474
00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:41,439
Speaker 1: and how to read it and how to how to

475
00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:44,439
Speaker 1: think about it. But it was it was more just

476
00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:48,520
Speaker 1: self exploratory. Though, that's so cool. I just started taking

477
00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:52,040
Speaker 1: piano lessons. Oh that's awesome, And are you is it

478
00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:54,199
Speaker 1: online right now or now? Are you able to go

479
00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:57,600
Speaker 1: in person online? But it's interesting because I set this

480
00:26:57,680 --> 00:27:01,760
Speaker 1: goal for myself. I realized and maybe this is where

481
00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:03,919
Speaker 1: some of my anxiety comes in. Like all set a

482
00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:06,359
Speaker 1: goal and then I it takes me like three years

483
00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:08,879
Speaker 1: to do it. Like when I turned thirty, I was like,

484
00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:11,160
Speaker 1: I'm an adult, I'm going to start going to therapy.

485
00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:14,080
Speaker 1: And I didn't find a therapist until I was thirty three.

486
00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:16,840
Speaker 1: And then like I decided I wanted to learn to

487
00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:20,240
Speaker 1: play the piano, and weirdly, as I started talking about it,

488
00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:22,879
Speaker 1: I basically said a friend of mine was like, well,

489
00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:23,880
Speaker 1: how are you going to do? What are you gonna

490
00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:25,320
Speaker 1: get a keyboard? And I was like, I, yes, I

491
00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:27,760
Speaker 1: don't know, I'll figure it out, and like I just

492
00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:30,480
Speaker 1: know that someday, And I explained the kind of piano

493
00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:32,560
Speaker 1: I wanted to have, and a week later I found

494
00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:35,200
Speaker 1: it in a flea market and it was in perfect condition,

495
00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:37,720
Speaker 1: and I was like, something weird is happening. So I

496
00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:40,280
Speaker 1: bought this piano, which sat in the entryway of my

497
00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:43,159
Speaker 1: house for a couple of years before I started actually

498
00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:44,960
Speaker 1: taking lessons. I was like, wow, I really just this

499
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:48,320
Speaker 1: a little slow to the takeoff here, but it's cool,

500
00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:54,040
Speaker 1: and I in learning now I really think about how

501
00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:57,080
Speaker 1: much I wish I had taken any instrument as a kid,

502
00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:00,199
Speaker 1: because there there is, to your point, kind of a

503
00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:03,959
Speaker 1: just an understanding of music. I think about it with

504
00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:06,960
Speaker 1: my friends, who, you know, we're lucky enough to grow

505
00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:10,720
Speaker 1: up in like international households. One of my best friends,

506
00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:13,399
Speaker 1: her mom grew up in California and her dad grew

507
00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:15,159
Speaker 1: up in Mexico, and so they grew up in a

508
00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:19,040
Speaker 1: bilingual household. And you know, our other buddy speak Swedish,

509
00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:20,919
Speaker 1: and I'm just like, God, you have a you have

510
00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:24,080
Speaker 1: a flexibility with language that those of us who try

511
00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:26,480
Speaker 1: to learn languages when we're older, it's just not quite

512
00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:29,240
Speaker 1: the same. So I think that's very cool to know

513
00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:33,560
Speaker 1: that you played piano before. Yeah, piano is a good

514
00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:38,320
Speaker 1: entryway into other instruments because it's just like the key.

515
00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:42,160
Speaker 1: It's very easy to understand what a scale is or

516
00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:44,040
Speaker 1: what an octave is when you look at a piano,

517
00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:47,920
Speaker 1: to me, compared to any other instrument. But I was

518
00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:52,320
Speaker 1: not I'm not a great piano player. I'm actually mediocret

519
00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:54,520
Speaker 1: a terrible piano player now. But I think it was

520
00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:59,160
Speaker 1: a good foundation. And I hated I hated practicing, Like

521
00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:01,760
Speaker 1: I would always get called into practice piano and always

522
00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:03,440
Speaker 1: I just wanted to play pop songs, like you know,

523
00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:06,640
Speaker 1: I'd be like going through Beeto and for beginners or whatever,

524
00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:08,640
Speaker 1: and I'd be like, but I'd rather play like a

525
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:11,080
Speaker 1: virgin on the piano. And I would just remember my

526
00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:13,160
Speaker 1: parents like buying like the sheet you could just go

527
00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:15,960
Speaker 1: buy like the sheet music for pop songs and them

528
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:19,200
Speaker 1: just like, oh god, Harry am plunking out like a virgin,

529
00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:22,880
Speaker 1: like the most the most virginal version of this song,

530
00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:28,320
Speaker 1: like you're like here, I yeah, yeah, not even sure

531
00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:32,160
Speaker 1: what the song was about. How how then did music

532
00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:35,560
Speaker 1: begin to take shape in your adult life? Because cut

533
00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:39,280
Speaker 1: to the band. When when did that all begin to change?

534
00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:43,520
Speaker 1: I think in college. I went to liberal arts college

535
00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:47,560
Speaker 1: in Washington called Evergreen State College, and I did not

536
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:52,280
Speaker 1: study music there, and it was fairly academic, but at

537
00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:57,760
Speaker 1: the same time was very immersed in this vibrant music

538
00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:01,320
Speaker 1: scene in Olympia. There was a handful of independent labels

539
00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:06,360
Speaker 1: and all these bands who were quite incendiary, whether it

540
00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:11,040
Speaker 1: was Bikini Kill or Bratmobile or Elliott Smith was on

541
00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:14,160
Speaker 1: the label. From there, you know, it just was such

542
00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:18,920
Speaker 1: like an incubator of of art and sound and it

543
00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:22,200
Speaker 1: just I was that was as much of a school

544
00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:28,320
Speaker 1: for me as college itself, and so I formed a

545
00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:32,960
Speaker 1: band there with some friends and then eventually met Corrin Tucker,

546
00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:36,040
Speaker 1: who I'm still in Slater Kenny with, and we just

547
00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:39,760
Speaker 1: formed a band together. It felt like everyone there kind

548
00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:41,840
Speaker 1: of made music, like when you hear but you know

549
00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:44,720
Speaker 1: you're reading about like the New York like no wave

550
00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:47,400
Speaker 1: scene or something like in the seventiess, just like people

551
00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:49,960
Speaker 1: who didn't even traditionally do music. We're like, oh, I'm

552
00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:53,040
Speaker 1: going to pair this cool poem with the guitar. I'm

553
00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:54,960
Speaker 1: going to do like some avant garde thing. Like it

554
00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:56,600
Speaker 1: was a little bit like that in Olympia. There were

555
00:30:56,600 --> 00:31:02,480
Speaker 1: sort of traditional bands and then a lot of unconventional configurations,

556
00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:04,560
Speaker 1: you know, like a weird two piece or just bass

557
00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:07,600
Speaker 1: and drums. You know, there was just a lot of elasticity.

558
00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:10,000
Speaker 1: So that was very exciting. But I think it wasn't

559
00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:14,040
Speaker 1: until I started playing with Corrin that we really just thought, oh,

560
00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:16,440
Speaker 1: this this could be something we we sort of dared

561
00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:22,600
Speaker 1: to have, like ambitions beyond what was a fairly strident

562
00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:24,600
Speaker 1: I think a lot of punk scenes back then we're

563
00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:28,000
Speaker 1: kind of strident, and I I totally am glad I

564
00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:29,800
Speaker 1: came out of that scene. I think it like instilled

565
00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:34,200
Speaker 1: in me a lot of ideas and ideologies that I

566
00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:36,560
Speaker 1: I think I still in conversation with. I don't think

567
00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:38,720
Speaker 1: I subscribed to them, but I think are I am

568
00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:42,600
Speaker 1: in conversation with. But as I graduated from college, I

569
00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:45,000
Speaker 1: think we were. We had put out dig Me Out,

570
00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:48,440
Speaker 1: which was just this record that, by most metrics, is

571
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:51,800
Speaker 1: not a big record, like we never We've always been

572
00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:54,080
Speaker 1: an outsider band, like we were never on the radio,

573
00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:57,040
Speaker 1: you never were on MTV. But at that point, ding

574
00:31:57,080 --> 00:31:59,600
Speaker 1: Me Out made all these year end lists and people

575
00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:03,040
Speaker 1: were right about us, and we sort of I don't know,

576
00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:05,520
Speaker 1: I just felt like something we could continue doing. And

577
00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:08,680
Speaker 1: so instead of going to graduate school, which I thought

578
00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:11,880
Speaker 1: I would do, I was like, oh, well I love

579
00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:14,400
Speaker 1: doing this and let's keep going. And then all of

580
00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:17,040
Speaker 1: a sudden, we were putting out a record every year

581
00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:21,560
Speaker 1: for a decade, which was pretty crazy. It is pretty crazy.

582
00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:25,400
Speaker 1: I mean when you think about the achievements and and

583
00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:28,280
Speaker 1: also just the I don't know, it's funny when you

584
00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:30,320
Speaker 1: say we weren't on the radio, we weren't this, we

585
00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:33,040
Speaker 1: weren't that. I'm like, God, how does that work? Because

586
00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:36,680
Speaker 1: for me in in my sort of musical lexicon, I'm like,

587
00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:40,360
Speaker 1: you guys are iconic, Like you're a huge band. What

588
00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:44,360
Speaker 1: are you talking about? Um, so it's not wild to hear.

589
00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:48,320
Speaker 1: I don't know. As a fan, I think sometimes you forget. Yeah,

590
00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:51,000
Speaker 1: and we're kind of back to that time now where

591
00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:54,400
Speaker 1: there are so many bands that you know, like the

592
00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:57,640
Speaker 1: the kind of top down like hierarchy or the ways

593
00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:01,680
Speaker 1: that people gain access to music are so diffuse now

594
00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:04,920
Speaker 1: that it's not we're no longer in the like radio

595
00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:08,840
Speaker 1: is king or MTV is a make or break situation,

596
00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:12,200
Speaker 1: like so many bands just exist on SoundCloud or put

597
00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:14,040
Speaker 1: out mixed tapes or now you know. So, I mean,

598
00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:16,600
Speaker 1: we're almost back to that time where you you don't

599
00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:18,800
Speaker 1: have to have any of those outlets. But I think

600
00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:21,760
Speaker 1: when we were coming around, there was a definite difference

601
00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:24,920
Speaker 1: between mainstream and underground, and now it's kind of conflated.

602
00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:27,760
Speaker 1: But yeah, you're right, I mean, I'm we're very lucky,

603
00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:30,240
Speaker 1: Like I think we we came up at a time

604
00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:34,400
Speaker 1: and just lasted long enough to have an imprint and

605
00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:39,000
Speaker 1: really feel like we we made something. But by like

606
00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:42,680
Speaker 1: sort of the I don't know, classic ways of measuring

607
00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:45,760
Speaker 1: success that was not ours, but also we did it

608
00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:49,200
Speaker 1: the way we wanted to, Yeah, which I think I

609
00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:52,960
Speaker 1: think for longevity it's better when you do you yeah

610
00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:56,920
Speaker 1: for sure. And yeah, I think especially especially with music.

611
00:33:56,960 --> 00:33:59,360
Speaker 1: But don't don't you as you find that with your

612
00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:01,960
Speaker 1: career and as you I know it's not a perfect

613
00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:06,640
Speaker 1: analog music and acting, but have you found that by

614
00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:08,560
Speaker 1: like sort of sticking to what you want to do

615
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:11,680
Speaker 1: that if you just sort of last, you know what

616
00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:14,880
Speaker 1: I mean, Like, then you the award, like the reward

617
00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:18,560
Speaker 1: is a kind of accumulative. It's not necessarily instantaneous. Yeah. Well,

618
00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:21,600
Speaker 1: I think that what so many of us see and

619
00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:26,520
Speaker 1: assume is quote unquote normal in the world of entertainment.

620
00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:29,520
Speaker 1: It's like a firework moment that we think we're all

621
00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:31,400
Speaker 1: supposed to have, But what it really is is like

622
00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:33,600
Speaker 1: a fireball. It's like when a star explodes. It's actually

623
00:34:33,640 --> 00:34:36,799
Speaker 1: really scary if you're in space and that happens, and

624
00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:39,759
Speaker 1: things are you know, gaseous and burning. I also went

625
00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:42,880
Speaker 1: to space camp in case that wasn't clear. I've I

626
00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:46,040
Speaker 1: love this, Yeah, I've really really loved it. But I

627
00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:48,600
Speaker 1: think in my young career it kind of feels like,

628
00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:50,879
Speaker 1: you know, when you're in the movie theater and you're

629
00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:53,160
Speaker 1: looking up and everything so big and you think, wow,

630
00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:56,320
Speaker 1: that's that's what it's supposed to be. An up close

631
00:34:56,600 --> 00:35:00,160
Speaker 1: it can be scarier. I in my early career, I

632
00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:04,920
Speaker 1: went toe to toe with a very famous actress and

633
00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:06,960
Speaker 1: it got down to she and I for like six

634
00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:10,600
Speaker 1: movies in a row, and her her star was really ascending,

635
00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:12,920
Speaker 1: and she booked every single one of these movies, and

636
00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:16,600
Speaker 1: every single time, the director and the everybody would be like,

637
00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:19,120
Speaker 1: you know, you're you're going to be so amazing, and

638
00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:21,399
Speaker 1: we're so excited to see where your career goes. And

639
00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:24,440
Speaker 1: I can't believe you're just getting started and you'll be

640
00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:27,279
Speaker 1: in this person's shoes soon. And and she had like

641
00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:33,040
Speaker 1: a really tragic, explosive, horrible, devastating young life. It happened

642
00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:37,120
Speaker 1: too big and too fast for her. And I I

643
00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:44,000
Speaker 1: think that being so green and not you know, quote

644
00:35:44,080 --> 00:35:48,640
Speaker 1: unquote having a big break that happened overnight actually probably

645
00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:52,560
Speaker 1: like saved my life. You know, it allowed me to

646
00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:56,880
Speaker 1: kind of be a kid. I thought I was an adult,

647
00:35:56,920 --> 00:35:58,960
Speaker 1: and I realized, you know, at twenty year a child,

648
00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:01,919
Speaker 1: you don't know any thing. I've got my first job

649
00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:04,480
Speaker 1: three years out of like wearing a uniform in an

650
00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:07,439
Speaker 1: all girls school, Like, what are we talking about? That? People?

651
00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:11,640
Speaker 1: Let us be adults on sets? What? Um? And so

652
00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:16,440
Speaker 1: I realized that the slow burn I'd much rather be,

653
00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:20,239
Speaker 1: you know, a flare than a firework. And and it

654
00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:24,799
Speaker 1: enables you to kind of be a little more curious

655
00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:28,319
Speaker 1: and not get so swept up. And I don't know,

656
00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:32,799
Speaker 1: I think for me that that was certainly great. And

657
00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:38,440
Speaker 1: I think weirdly that it took me taking a break

658
00:36:39,160 --> 00:36:42,520
Speaker 1: from the kind of television schedule I had been accustomed

659
00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:49,960
Speaker 1: to to actually truly spread and slow down and and

660
00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:55,759
Speaker 1: reconnect to my self and my adult priorities and and

661
00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:58,479
Speaker 1: and a different kind of curiosity that had more room

662
00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:02,919
Speaker 1: than five minute here or eighteen minutes on a turnaround there.

663
00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:07,959
Speaker 1: You know, I didn't realize I needed to kind of breathe. Yeah, yeah.

664
00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:11,400
Speaker 1: I think of it like a career versus a moment,

665
00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:14,280
Speaker 1: you know, And I'd rather have a career. And careers

666
00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:19,359
Speaker 1: do have fluctuations, but it tends to last longer, you know, Like,

667
00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:22,440
Speaker 1: and I think once you kind of settle in, also,

668
00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:25,960
Speaker 1: you just you you do get used to people coming

669
00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:28,040
Speaker 1: and going and that ebb and flow, and you know,

670
00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:32,160
Speaker 1: you you stopped seeing yourself in relation to the next thing,

671
00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:34,560
Speaker 1: the younger thing, that whatever. You're just like, yeah, this

672
00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:36,799
Speaker 1: is just how it works. And if you wait long enough,

673
00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:40,920
Speaker 1: it's like only some people make it through that, and

674
00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:44,040
Speaker 1: you're you're you're rooting for them, but you're just you

675
00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:48,440
Speaker 1: just realize the truth is when the dust settles, you know,

676
00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:52,600
Speaker 1: out of the five big things of a certain year,

677
00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:55,960
Speaker 1: a couple of years, one person becomes you know, okay,

678
00:37:56,000 --> 00:37:58,600
Speaker 1: there they have the career, and those are the things

679
00:37:58,640 --> 00:38:01,520
Speaker 1: you start to val you a little more. Just also

680
00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:04,640
Speaker 1: you start to things commit are put in perspective of like, well,

681
00:38:04,640 --> 00:38:07,960
Speaker 1: what else. It's not just about the work, you know,

682
00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:11,080
Speaker 1: like there's so many other things. There's so much too

683
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:16,400
Speaker 1: a life, And I think about us really being in

684
00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:20,480
Speaker 1: this moment where perhaps because there's so much more transparency

685
00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:23,360
Speaker 1: in the world, you know, I'd imagine we can ascribe

686
00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:31,440
Speaker 1: that a lot two digital everything, honestly, social media, the

687
00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:33,759
Speaker 1: ability to look up records, the ability to you know,

688
00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:37,960
Speaker 1: scan historical newspapers from the comfort of your own home.

689
00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:39,600
Speaker 1: You don't have to go to the library and go

690
00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:42,200
Speaker 1: through those giants scanning machines that we had to when

691
00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:43,920
Speaker 1: we were a little kids trying to write book orboards

692
00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:49,440
Speaker 1: or like micro fish. But I think about the fullness

693
00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:54,880
Speaker 1: of a life versus you know, your public career or

694
00:38:55,160 --> 00:38:58,840
Speaker 1: or a promotional tour or something. We get to peek

695
00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:02,600
Speaker 1: into people's lives more now than we used to, and

696
00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:05,719
Speaker 1: part of what excites me about that. I have lots

697
00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:08,480
Speaker 1: of reservations about it, but part of what excites me

698
00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:11,880
Speaker 1: about it is the potential. And now it feels like

699
00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:15,680
Speaker 1: a propensity for people to stand for things, um to

700
00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:19,080
Speaker 1: take part in movements in whatever ways they can. And

701
00:39:19,120 --> 00:39:22,440
Speaker 1: I realize we've always been doing this, but I'm excited

702
00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:26,080
Speaker 1: that we're in an era where it's no longer acceptable

703
00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:28,200
Speaker 1: for people to go, hm, I don't really do that,

704
00:39:29,160 --> 00:39:32,400
Speaker 1: and I guess I should clarify. I don't mean to

705
00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:33,799
Speaker 1: say that everyone is meant to do it in the

706
00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:35,680
Speaker 1: same way, or that everyone's meant to be an expert

707
00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:40,600
Speaker 1: on everything. I find myself having to take distance because

708
00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:43,000
Speaker 1: I have to remind other people that just because I

709
00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:45,200
Speaker 1: know a lot about something, I'm not an expert on

710
00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:48,560
Speaker 1: everything and can't be. And I can't I can't survive,

711
00:39:48,640 --> 00:39:52,400
Speaker 1: trying to carry at all. But I as tan gentle

712
00:39:52,440 --> 00:39:55,200
Speaker 1: as this is getting it's it's all sort of coming

713
00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:58,600
Speaker 1: up because I'm thinking about people who have stepped into

714
00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:02,640
Speaker 1: movements and stepped in two spaces, and and there's so

715
00:40:02,719 --> 00:40:07,600
Speaker 1: much about Slater Kenny and Riot Girl that really fascinates

716
00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:11,640
Speaker 1: me in terms of just what that movement was for

717
00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:16,280
Speaker 1: women in music. And and also just in a moment

718
00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:20,560
Speaker 1: before this moment where everyone's talking about how you deserve

719
00:40:20,680 --> 00:40:23,239
Speaker 1: some self care and to take up space, these were

720
00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:28,560
Speaker 1: women really boldly, rashly, loudly taking up space. And I,

721
00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:30,200
Speaker 1: I don't know, I just I'm wondering if you can

722
00:40:30,239 --> 00:40:34,120
Speaker 1: explain to anyone who's listening who doesn't know what Riot

723
00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:38,279
Speaker 1: Girl is, um, how you guys got involved. Can you

724
00:40:38,360 --> 00:40:40,640
Speaker 1: kind of paint us a picture. I should preface this

725
00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:46,640
Speaker 1: by saying that while my bandmate Corin was definitely a

726
00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:50,640
Speaker 1: part of Riot Girl, I was a little more on

727
00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:54,280
Speaker 1: the peripherty when I was still in high school up

728
00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:57,640
Speaker 1: you know, in the suburbs of Seattle. When I started

729
00:40:57,680 --> 00:41:02,000
Speaker 1: hearing about Riot Girl and the music that was going

730
00:41:02,040 --> 00:41:05,319
Speaker 1: along with it, um and starting to get the fanzines,

731
00:41:05,719 --> 00:41:07,879
Speaker 1: there was a Pikinikill fanzine, which is also of course

732
00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:09,399
Speaker 1: the name of a band. There was an actual Riot

733
00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:12,560
Speaker 1: Girl fanzin, and there was a fanzine called um Girl,

734
00:41:12,680 --> 00:41:16,560
Speaker 1: germs Uh and jig Saw, and there was just all

735
00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:23,560
Speaker 1: this like literature and music, and it was very unabashed,

736
00:41:24,040 --> 00:41:27,799
Speaker 1: in your face, really just taking all these topics that

737
00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:31,520
Speaker 1: were taboo up until that point, especially in the context

738
00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:35,440
Speaker 1: of of music, and really bringing them to the forefront,

739
00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:40,600
Speaker 1: whether it was sexual assault or the female body being

740
00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:47,600
Speaker 1: objectified or exploited. People were singing about intersectionality of race, class,

741
00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:50,880
Speaker 1: gender like it was, and there was queer influences, like

742
00:41:50,880 --> 00:41:54,840
Speaker 1: it was just all these things that particularly in in

743
00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:58,960
Speaker 1: punk up until that point, but kind of right before

744
00:41:59,040 --> 00:42:02,600
Speaker 1: then it had become a little bit like the hardcore

745
00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:07,480
Speaker 1: scene basically was so hyper masculine and very kind of violent.

746
00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:11,200
Speaker 1: Like within these punk scenes there was often these mosh

747
00:42:11,280 --> 00:42:14,920
Speaker 1: pits and slam dancing that we're kind of alienating and

748
00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:18,400
Speaker 1: how forceful and physical they were. And then starting in

749
00:42:18,520 --> 00:42:23,680
Speaker 1: d C and in Olympia, essentially we're a group of

750
00:42:23,680 --> 00:42:29,160
Speaker 1: women who kind of took feminism from the academic realm

751
00:42:29,239 --> 00:42:35,000
Speaker 1: and placed it in a very relatable vernacular, which is music.

752
00:42:35,320 --> 00:42:38,880
Speaker 1: So for me, it was definitely the first time that

753
00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:42,520
Speaker 1: these notions of feminism, and I will say it was

754
00:42:42,560 --> 00:42:46,120
Speaker 1: definitely slanted slightly towards like what we would call white feminism,

755
00:42:46,200 --> 00:42:48,800
Speaker 1: you know, even though there were plenty of women of color,

756
00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:52,440
Speaker 1: and they're like as often the clumsiness of movements sometimes

757
00:42:52,440 --> 00:42:54,799
Speaker 1: when they're getting started, as they're not as intersectional as

758
00:42:54,800 --> 00:42:58,040
Speaker 1: they aim for. But definitely like a lot of these

759
00:42:58,640 --> 00:43:02,040
Speaker 1: kind of heavy idea is we're suddenly being conveyed in

760
00:43:02,040 --> 00:43:05,000
Speaker 1: a way that was just like hit you over the head.

761
00:43:05,120 --> 00:43:09,520
Speaker 1: It was the first time I really saw myself in music,

762
00:43:09,680 --> 00:43:14,239
Speaker 1: like heard lyrics that were explaining myself to me, like

763
00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:16,319
Speaker 1: in the way that we seek that out in in

764
00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:20,440
Speaker 1: all forms of art. So yeah, it was definitely people

765
00:43:20,520 --> 00:43:24,600
Speaker 1: like clawing and scratching their way onto a canvas, onto stages,

766
00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:28,920
Speaker 1: you know, making space safe spaces for women at shows,

767
00:43:29,440 --> 00:43:33,919
Speaker 1: just bringing a discourse into a scene that had as

768
00:43:33,960 --> 00:43:37,960
Speaker 1: many scenes like we're very reticent about starting to incorporate

769
00:43:38,440 --> 00:43:42,239
Speaker 1: some of these what seemed like radical ideas into the

770
00:43:42,320 --> 00:43:46,440
Speaker 1: day to day. And it really did change music and

771
00:43:46,480 --> 00:43:48,279
Speaker 1: I think of and eventually it changed a lot of

772
00:43:48,320 --> 00:43:52,000
Speaker 1: other things. Too, But it was definitely exciting, and I

773
00:43:52,080 --> 00:43:56,240
Speaker 1: see the female musicians that came before me as really

774
00:43:56,280 --> 00:43:59,440
Speaker 1: doing a lot of the work. If you've seen the

775
00:43:59,480 --> 00:44:01,759
Speaker 1: Punk Seeing Her With, which is about Kathleen Hannah, like,

776
00:44:01,960 --> 00:44:03,440
Speaker 1: you know, some of those days it was there was

777
00:44:03,520 --> 00:44:07,600
Speaker 1: actual like violence and threats and people saw saw her

778
00:44:07,680 --> 00:44:10,960
Speaker 1: and her band as a definite threat to the people's

779
00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:13,600
Speaker 1: way of being into the status quo. And you know,

780
00:44:13,680 --> 00:44:17,279
Speaker 1: same with with Corin and in Heavens to Betsy. You know,

781
00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:20,560
Speaker 1: they were a little two piece band and it's just

782
00:44:20,840 --> 00:44:25,080
Speaker 1: amazing the terror that they evoked just by being loud

783
00:44:25,120 --> 00:44:28,520
Speaker 1: and outspoken. Um it seems tried to say now, but

784
00:44:28,600 --> 00:44:32,400
Speaker 1: at the time it was very radical. And the meetings

785
00:44:32,400 --> 00:44:36,160
Speaker 1: that there were Riot Girl meetings where people really sat

786
00:44:36,200 --> 00:44:38,960
Speaker 1: around and had the kind of discussions that are commonplace

787
00:44:39,040 --> 00:44:43,120
Speaker 1: now that people have either online or in person, sharing

788
00:44:43,160 --> 00:44:48,000
Speaker 1: stories of of sexual assault and finding ways of like

789
00:44:48,280 --> 00:44:51,319
Speaker 1: you know, there would be an instance of rape on

790
00:44:51,360 --> 00:44:53,560
Speaker 1: a college campus and people would figure out, like, how

791
00:44:54,280 --> 00:44:58,400
Speaker 1: how do we activate, how do we get the school involved,

792
00:44:58,400 --> 00:45:02,759
Speaker 1: how do we what does it sort of slightly vigilante

793
00:45:02,840 --> 00:45:06,960
Speaker 1: but also just just share activism, And yeah, it was

794
00:45:07,040 --> 00:45:11,319
Speaker 1: very exciting for sure. I definitely see its influence now,

795
00:45:11,480 --> 00:45:14,000
Speaker 1: and I'm glad that it's made strides in terms of

796
00:45:14,560 --> 00:45:17,239
Speaker 1: acknowledging the ways that it was lacking and you know,

797
00:45:17,480 --> 00:45:23,840
Speaker 1: becoming more more inclusive in its current iteration. It's very cool,

798
00:45:24,239 --> 00:45:26,239
Speaker 1: and I mean, I think that that always has to

799
00:45:26,280 --> 00:45:30,359
Speaker 1: be the goal, you know. I've been really trying to

800
00:45:30,440 --> 00:45:34,440
Speaker 1: find the capacity to hold the both and of we

801
00:45:34,480 --> 00:45:37,120
Speaker 1: don't have time for people to you know, learn lessons

802
00:45:37,160 --> 00:45:39,920
Speaker 1: while people are out there suffering. And then there's the

803
00:45:39,960 --> 00:45:41,839
Speaker 1: other side where I go, people don't know what they

804
00:45:41,840 --> 00:45:44,680
Speaker 1: don't know, and they have to be kind of welcomed

805
00:45:44,680 --> 00:45:50,880
Speaker 1: and taught, and um, it excites me that there's history

806
00:45:50,960 --> 00:45:53,160
Speaker 1: like this to look at, and yeah, I think about

807
00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:55,560
Speaker 1: what that must have been like in that moment, you know,

808
00:45:55,640 --> 00:45:59,360
Speaker 1: as a teenager beginning to make music that influence happening.

809
00:45:59,360 --> 00:46:02,960
Speaker 1: I get this visual almost of like young girls seeing

810
00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:04,880
Speaker 1: women put a stake in the ground and be like,

811
00:46:05,040 --> 00:46:07,920
Speaker 1: we're claiming it. And then you get to come after

812
00:46:08,080 --> 00:46:12,160
Speaker 1: and make music. And I imagine that that influenced the

813
00:46:12,200 --> 00:46:15,400
Speaker 1: band and all of you as as women, and probably

814
00:46:15,440 --> 00:46:18,520
Speaker 1: other work as you've moved forward as well. For sure,

815
00:46:18,600 --> 00:46:21,399
Speaker 1: I mean I think, well, it's interesting because I feel

816
00:46:21,400 --> 00:46:23,719
Speaker 1: like the first people to come off and are not

817
00:46:23,840 --> 00:46:25,640
Speaker 1: invited and they have to sort of force, you know,

818
00:46:25,680 --> 00:46:27,960
Speaker 1: the kick the door down. But what's so great, what

819
00:46:28,080 --> 00:46:32,479
Speaker 1: was so great about Riot Girl was once those people

820
00:46:32,600 --> 00:46:34,840
Speaker 1: kick the door down, then you were actually invited and

821
00:46:34,880 --> 00:46:38,239
Speaker 1: to be invited to the table. I remember being at

822
00:46:38,239 --> 00:46:40,880
Speaker 1: a show or you know, usually you're sort of fighting

823
00:46:40,920 --> 00:46:42,680
Speaker 1: if you want, if it was your favorite band, even

824
00:46:42,719 --> 00:46:44,799
Speaker 1: you know, and I'm talking about fairly small clubs, but

825
00:46:44,880 --> 00:46:46,520
Speaker 1: still like trying to get your way to the front

826
00:46:46,560 --> 00:46:49,160
Speaker 1: and just this wall of like big dudes, and then

827
00:46:49,360 --> 00:46:51,839
Speaker 1: you have someone on stage saying, girls to the front.

828
00:46:52,040 --> 00:46:56,279
Speaker 1: You're like, what, like you you see me. It's such

829
00:46:56,320 --> 00:47:00,239
Speaker 1: a simple thing, but that can translate into any thing,

830
00:47:00,360 --> 00:47:05,080
Speaker 1: like just people like having an awareness as they walk

831
00:47:05,160 --> 00:47:08,400
Speaker 1: through a door, break the glass ceiling or whatever, like

832
00:47:08,480 --> 00:47:11,080
Speaker 1: to lay down tracks behind them and to just make

833
00:47:11,120 --> 00:47:13,839
Speaker 1: sure you're not shutting the door behind you after you

834
00:47:13,880 --> 00:47:15,960
Speaker 1: go in. And I think, like that was definitely a

835
00:47:16,000 --> 00:47:18,960
Speaker 1: lesson to learn from that. I came second, third, fourth,

836
00:47:19,000 --> 00:47:21,440
Speaker 1: Like I was not a progenitor of this, but I was.

837
00:47:21,520 --> 00:47:26,680
Speaker 1: I definitely benefited from other people's really hard work and

838
00:47:26,719 --> 00:47:28,440
Speaker 1: then figuring out what I can learn from that, And

839
00:47:28,440 --> 00:47:31,520
Speaker 1: the other thing I really loved about Riot Girl was

840
00:47:31,640 --> 00:47:35,640
Speaker 1: definitely this attitude of of kind of not not caring,

841
00:47:35,640 --> 00:47:38,239
Speaker 1: which I think it's tricky because the language now is

842
00:47:38,280 --> 00:47:42,440
Speaker 1: so much about caring and kindness, which I do completely

843
00:47:43,400 --> 00:47:45,799
Speaker 1: subscribe to, but I also think there's kind of a

844
00:47:45,840 --> 00:47:49,400
Speaker 1: limit of just like where to put your energy, like

845
00:47:49,440 --> 00:47:52,680
Speaker 1: what things to not have to care about, or that

846
00:47:52,800 --> 00:47:56,480
Speaker 1: you shouldn't care about because it's actually just toxic or

847
00:47:56,560 --> 00:47:58,880
Speaker 1: draining or you know. So I think that that a

848
00:47:58,920 --> 00:48:01,799
Speaker 1: little bit of that kind of irascibility and feistiness. I

849
00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:05,239
Speaker 1: think I I sort of kept kept with me um

850
00:48:05,280 --> 00:48:09,879
Speaker 1: from that time, you know, even though I've mellowed, which

851
00:48:09,920 --> 00:48:12,040
Speaker 1: is I think sometimes you have to have a little

852
00:48:12,080 --> 00:48:15,000
Speaker 1: a little bit of fight in you just to survive. Well, yeah,

853
00:48:15,000 --> 00:48:16,680
Speaker 1: it's like you got to keep the pilot light on

854
00:48:17,000 --> 00:48:21,720
Speaker 1: at least. Yes, it's always got to be something burning

855
00:48:21,719 --> 00:48:25,239
Speaker 1: that you can toggle up or chill out. But I

856
00:48:25,280 --> 00:48:28,760
Speaker 1: think you've always got to have it going. You're nailing

857
00:48:28,800 --> 00:48:33,960
Speaker 1: it with this band, and you've always loved movies and

858
00:48:34,000 --> 00:48:38,080
Speaker 1: corralling all the ragtag kids into plays. How does the

859
00:48:38,120 --> 00:48:42,440
Speaker 1: other side of your work begin to come into play

860
00:48:42,480 --> 00:48:46,879
Speaker 1: because you're making music. And again now we're looking at

861
00:48:46,880 --> 00:48:50,279
Speaker 1: this incredible show we loved, and obviously other work and

862
00:48:50,480 --> 00:48:53,680
Speaker 1: the book, and how do you begin to figure out

863
00:48:53,760 --> 00:48:59,080
Speaker 1: how to spin multiple plates? I think there is definitely

864
00:48:59,120 --> 00:49:03,680
Speaker 1: a through line of writing and performance. And I should

865
00:49:03,719 --> 00:49:07,000
Speaker 1: say and before music, like in middle school and high school,

866
00:49:07,040 --> 00:49:10,320
Speaker 1: I was very into doing the school plays and stuff

867
00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:13,400
Speaker 1: like that. So it was always kind of percolating and

868
00:49:13,440 --> 00:49:19,560
Speaker 1: I enjoyed writing. But I mean it really was with Portlandia.

869
00:49:19,680 --> 00:49:24,480
Speaker 1: Just Fred Armison also has a musical background and he

870
00:49:24,520 --> 00:49:28,200
Speaker 1: had he was on SNL. He was not in the

871
00:49:28,239 --> 00:49:30,080
Speaker 1: main cast yet I think he was still like a

872
00:49:30,120 --> 00:49:34,360
Speaker 1: featured player and he was a fan of the band

873
00:49:34,400 --> 00:49:37,120
Speaker 1: and really just kind of reached out to me and

874
00:49:37,320 --> 00:49:40,840
Speaker 1: had this idea for something I think he'd been asked

875
00:49:40,880 --> 00:49:44,040
Speaker 1: to do. It was something weird, like for the John

876
00:49:44,120 --> 00:49:47,279
Speaker 1: Carey campaign, like so long ago. Like he was like,

877
00:49:47,320 --> 00:49:49,279
Speaker 1: the John Carey campaign wants me to do like this

878
00:49:49,360 --> 00:49:53,080
Speaker 1: little like humor sketch or something, you know, this little

879
00:49:53,120 --> 00:49:55,240
Speaker 1: and he's like, can you you want to make something

880
00:49:55,280 --> 00:49:58,200
Speaker 1: with me? And I was like, sure, that sounds weird

881
00:49:58,280 --> 00:50:01,680
Speaker 1: and fun. And he had this whole character that where

882
00:50:01,719 --> 00:50:05,759
Speaker 1: he wanted to play Saddam Hussein in his bunker, but

883
00:50:05,840 --> 00:50:08,880
Speaker 1: he wanted to portray like that Saddam Hussein was found

884
00:50:08,880 --> 00:50:10,960
Speaker 1: in a bunker and that he's just like kind of

885
00:50:10,960 --> 00:50:13,440
Speaker 1: this aging British rock star. It's such a threat idea.

886
00:50:13,920 --> 00:50:16,279
Speaker 1: And so he played Saddam Hu's saying like he's in

887
00:50:16,320 --> 00:50:18,440
Speaker 1: like this really nice suit and he's got like this

888
00:50:18,520 --> 00:50:21,319
Speaker 1: British accent and he's kind of like an older like

889
00:50:21,400 --> 00:50:25,120
Speaker 1: Pete Townsend or something, and like this was and my

890
00:50:25,280 --> 00:50:29,600
Speaker 1: character was just my name was Cindy Overton, and I

891
00:50:29,640 --> 00:50:32,760
Speaker 1: had a cable access show from my basement in Ohio

892
00:50:32,960 --> 00:50:36,320
Speaker 1: called Boink and I was getting the first interview. What'sa

893
00:50:36,840 --> 00:50:41,439
Speaker 1: was saying? So dumb anyway, So what was similar about

894
00:50:41,480 --> 00:50:43,800
Speaker 1: it was that it became this extension of this friendship

895
00:50:43,840 --> 00:50:47,000
Speaker 1: because Slater Kenny was so much of you know, it

896
00:50:47,040 --> 00:50:49,640
Speaker 1: was a very organic beginning. It wasn't like, oh, I'm

897
00:50:49,680 --> 00:50:51,520
Speaker 1: looking for bandmates and I'm going to put an ad

898
00:50:51,520 --> 00:50:56,240
Speaker 1: in the paper or some Svengali manager putting a band together.

899
00:50:56,280 --> 00:50:58,759
Speaker 1: And often, as you know in film and television too,

900
00:50:59,000 --> 00:51:02,080
Speaker 1: sometimes it works out. But people sort of package like Okay, well,

901
00:51:02,080 --> 00:51:03,719
Speaker 1: what if we you should meet with so and so.

902
00:51:03,760 --> 00:51:05,799
Speaker 1: I bet you guys would like each other. Sometimes you do,

903
00:51:06,640 --> 00:51:09,680
Speaker 1: sometimes you don't. It's all chemistry. But Fred and I

904
00:51:09,719 --> 00:51:11,959
Speaker 1: just really developed a friendship and started making these little

905
00:51:12,040 --> 00:51:15,680
Speaker 1: videos for fun until we kind of had developed our

906
00:51:15,719 --> 00:51:19,360
Speaker 1: own sensibility and point of view and pitched it and

907
00:51:19,400 --> 00:51:23,680
Speaker 1: it turned into Portlandia. And so I think that just

908
00:51:24,160 --> 00:51:26,240
Speaker 1: what an unlocked for me was that I had always

909
00:51:26,239 --> 00:51:29,960
Speaker 1: had this side of myself that viewed the world in

910
00:51:30,000 --> 00:51:33,880
Speaker 1: Phenomena through a more absurdist lens and through a slightly

911
00:51:33,920 --> 00:51:39,480
Speaker 1: more literary lens. But Slater Kenny, obviously it's it's music,

912
00:51:39,520 --> 00:51:42,920
Speaker 1: and there's only like I kind of see that in

913
00:51:42,960 --> 00:51:45,239
Speaker 1: this sort of sacred way, and I just sort of

914
00:51:45,800 --> 00:51:47,759
Speaker 1: it just is what it is, you know, and it

915
00:51:47,840 --> 00:51:50,920
Speaker 1: has these sort of parameters. And so this kind of

916
00:51:50,960 --> 00:51:54,360
Speaker 1: gave me an opportunity to do something that was different,

917
00:51:54,560 --> 00:51:57,200
Speaker 1: and it really provided a balance that I think I

918
00:51:57,280 --> 00:52:01,160
Speaker 1: needed because I had our Eve been starting a people

919
00:52:01,160 --> 00:52:04,080
Speaker 1: have started asked me to write music essays like they

920
00:52:04,080 --> 00:52:06,560
Speaker 1: sort of knew like, oh, well, she's able to kind

921
00:52:06,560 --> 00:52:09,319
Speaker 1: of step outside of what she's doing and and write

922
00:52:09,320 --> 00:52:11,440
Speaker 1: about it in a way, and so it kind of

923
00:52:11,480 --> 00:52:14,120
Speaker 1: allowed me to do that but less academically and just

924
00:52:14,160 --> 00:52:16,000
Speaker 1: be like, Okay, now I'm now I get to write

925
00:52:16,040 --> 00:52:18,719
Speaker 1: about things in a way that's not just cerebral but

926
00:52:18,800 --> 00:52:23,160
Speaker 1: also funny and and strange and finding the truth by

927
00:52:23,360 --> 00:52:28,000
Speaker 1: looking at it sixty degrees, you know, like anyway, it's

928
00:52:28,040 --> 00:52:30,560
Speaker 1: just it. And then I think once that opened up

929
00:52:30,560 --> 00:52:33,720
Speaker 1: for me, it all just became part of the world

930
00:52:33,719 --> 00:52:37,640
Speaker 1: that I wanted to be living. And I think for myself,

931
00:52:37,840 --> 00:52:40,919
Speaker 1: I love that. It's when you talk about getting out

932
00:52:40,960 --> 00:52:44,479
Speaker 1: of the academic writing, I fill my chest get tight

933
00:52:44,520 --> 00:52:47,960
Speaker 1: because I'm like, I love comedy so much. I love

934
00:52:48,000 --> 00:52:50,080
Speaker 1: to watch it, I love to perform it. But there

935
00:52:50,160 --> 00:52:53,759
Speaker 1: is something that is I'm struck with sheer terror at

936
00:52:53,800 --> 00:52:57,120
Speaker 1: the idea of having to write it. And I think

937
00:52:57,160 --> 00:52:59,600
Speaker 1: about you guys writing this show, I mean, eight seasons

938
00:52:59,640 --> 00:53:04,160
Speaker 1: of a show and a Peabody Award hello, And I'm

939
00:53:04,160 --> 00:53:06,600
Speaker 1: just like, how do you how do you even begin

940
00:53:06,840 --> 00:53:12,200
Speaker 1: to give yourself the freedom to write that kind of

941
00:53:12,239 --> 00:53:15,360
Speaker 1: material when you come from the world of writing music

942
00:53:15,360 --> 00:53:20,319
Speaker 1: and writing essays. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I

943
00:53:20,400 --> 00:53:24,719
Speaker 1: think like or I just I love being an observant

944
00:53:24,760 --> 00:53:29,440
Speaker 1: that's just how I am, and looking at the minutia

945
00:53:29,480 --> 00:53:33,320
Speaker 1: of a situation, looking at the ways people perform aspects

946
00:53:33,320 --> 00:53:36,319
Speaker 1: of themselves, Like I love watching couples perform couplehood. I

947
00:53:36,360 --> 00:53:40,560
Speaker 1: love watching people perform personhood. Like just these things that

948
00:53:40,640 --> 00:53:43,440
Speaker 1: just feel like this meta version of like humanity where

949
00:53:43,480 --> 00:53:45,760
Speaker 1: you're like, oh, are you Are you doing that? Because

950
00:53:45,960 --> 00:53:49,880
Speaker 1: that's who you are, you just have learned through watching,

951
00:53:49,960 --> 00:53:53,040
Speaker 1: and that's how you're supposed to be in a certain situation.

952
00:53:53,080 --> 00:53:57,319
Speaker 1: And like I love when moments get awkward or ring

953
00:53:57,320 --> 00:54:00,239
Speaker 1: a little false or you know, just all those rings

954
00:54:00,280 --> 00:54:04,200
Speaker 1: of people kind of tripping up or anyway, So yeah,

955
00:54:04,239 --> 00:54:06,799
Speaker 1: it was hard, and I definitely give credit. There's this woman,

956
00:54:06,840 --> 00:54:10,400
Speaker 1: Alison Silverman, who wrote on Portlandia the first season. She

957
00:54:10,600 --> 00:54:13,320
Speaker 1: was She was a head writer on The Colbert Show

958
00:54:13,760 --> 00:54:16,879
Speaker 1: way back Comedy Central years and then has written for

959
00:54:17,920 --> 00:54:20,919
Speaker 1: Russian Ball and a bunch of She's a great writer.

960
00:54:21,040 --> 00:54:25,839
Speaker 1: But she came in the first season in Portlandia and

961
00:54:25,960 --> 00:54:30,160
Speaker 1: it was just me and Fred and Jonathan Kreisel or

962
00:54:30,280 --> 00:54:36,520
Speaker 1: co creator and Allison really, and she was so kind

963
00:54:36,600 --> 00:54:39,719
Speaker 1: to me because there was I mean, fred is was

964
00:54:39,800 --> 00:54:42,400
Speaker 1: just my friend and he had a lot of faith

965
00:54:42,440 --> 00:54:44,680
Speaker 1: in me. But there is a learning curve, you know.

966
00:54:44,719 --> 00:54:48,440
Speaker 1: There is like I had not gone to like n

967
00:54:48,600 --> 00:54:52,560
Speaker 1: y U or you know, USC, and here I am

968
00:54:52,640 --> 00:54:54,960
Speaker 1: like essentially in a in a writer's room, and I'm like,

969
00:54:55,000 --> 00:54:58,400
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, pitching like so vulnerable. The only I

970
00:54:58,400 --> 00:55:02,719
Speaker 1: mean it is not unlike sitting and playing some things

971
00:55:02,760 --> 00:55:04,719
Speaker 1: on a guitar and saying what do you think of

972
00:55:04,760 --> 00:55:08,880
Speaker 1: this melody or this guitar riff, But especially with comedy,

973
00:55:09,160 --> 00:55:12,399
Speaker 1: you're kind of looking for the laugh or looking you're

974
00:55:12,400 --> 00:55:17,000
Speaker 1: looking for that approval. It's very frightening. So Allison was

975
00:55:17,000 --> 00:55:18,480
Speaker 1: just so good, you know. I would I was not

976
00:55:18,480 --> 00:55:24,279
Speaker 1: great at pitching, and she would really listen, and she

977
00:55:24,320 --> 00:55:26,680
Speaker 1: would sometimes come back and say, you know, I think

978
00:55:26,719 --> 00:55:32,040
Speaker 1: Carrie's idea is really good. Let's like kind of flesh

979
00:55:32,080 --> 00:55:34,759
Speaker 1: it out a little bit. And I just I'm so

980
00:55:34,840 --> 00:55:39,520
Speaker 1: admiring and of her and grateful that she just took

981
00:55:39,520 --> 00:55:43,440
Speaker 1: the time to just be like I, these are good ideas,

982
00:55:43,440 --> 00:55:45,480
Speaker 1: you're just not like presenting them in sort of the

983
00:55:45,520 --> 00:55:49,160
Speaker 1: classic way. Um. And so yeah, it was definitely a

984
00:55:49,200 --> 00:55:52,000
Speaker 1: learning a learning curve for sure. And same with First

985
00:55:52,040 --> 00:55:54,560
Speaker 1: Dance Set. I remember most of my scenes were with

986
00:55:54,640 --> 00:55:58,440
Speaker 1: Fred and then we were doing an early sketch and

987
00:55:58,440 --> 00:56:01,000
Speaker 1: then suddenly it was just me like in my as

988
00:56:01,080 --> 00:56:03,920
Speaker 1: my character doing like a little solo run of like

989
00:56:04,440 --> 00:56:07,960
Speaker 1: riffing and improv and I was like what am I doing?

990
00:56:08,200 --> 00:56:11,240
Speaker 1: Like this is horrifying. So it was trial by fire

991
00:56:11,320 --> 00:56:13,440
Speaker 1: for sure. But I think no matter how much you

992
00:56:13,480 --> 00:56:16,719
Speaker 1: can prepare for something, you do eventually just have to

993
00:56:16,920 --> 00:56:18,960
Speaker 1: kind of go for it. I mean it sounds like

994
00:56:19,000 --> 00:56:21,360
Speaker 1: that was your grad school. It was my grad school

995
00:56:21,400 --> 00:56:23,759
Speaker 1: and my film school because then then when I got

996
00:56:23,760 --> 00:56:29,200
Speaker 1: into directing, it was because I never took for granted though,

997
00:56:29,200 --> 00:56:30,560
Speaker 1: because I you know, a lot of people who have

998
00:56:30,680 --> 00:56:34,040
Speaker 1: their their own shows or are on show you know

999
00:56:34,040 --> 00:56:36,040
Speaker 1: you end up directing, which is great. But I was

1000
00:56:36,120 --> 00:56:38,480
Speaker 1: like I just told my agents like, get me any

1001
00:56:38,840 --> 00:56:41,520
Speaker 1: like I will do every directing job I can. And

1002
00:56:41,560 --> 00:56:43,560
Speaker 1: I so I just started taking a ton of directing

1003
00:56:43,640 --> 00:56:45,960
Speaker 1: jobs because I was like, it's just it's the Malcolm

1004
00:56:46,000 --> 00:56:47,840
Speaker 1: Gladwell thing. You just put in those hours and I

1005
00:56:47,840 --> 00:56:54,160
Speaker 1: was like I gotta learn. Yeah, well, yeah, I would

1006
00:56:54,200 --> 00:56:56,200
Speaker 1: love to talk to you about that, because it really was.

1007
00:56:56,280 --> 00:56:57,600
Speaker 1: I was like, I was like, I don't want to

1008
00:56:57,640 --> 00:57:02,000
Speaker 1: just assume because I've directed some Orlandia and so yeah,

1009
00:57:02,040 --> 00:57:04,840
Speaker 1: I just went out there and directed a bunch of shows.

1010
00:57:04,840 --> 00:57:07,879
Speaker 1: And now now I feel like I contract. I love

1011
00:57:07,920 --> 00:57:11,879
Speaker 1: that I'm almost seeing a ven diagram of comedy and

1012
00:57:11,920 --> 00:57:16,240
Speaker 1: directing and acting, improv and music and you've you've put

1013
00:57:16,280 --> 00:57:19,040
Speaker 1: all these little spaces together to be in the center.

1014
00:57:20,040 --> 00:57:24,320
Speaker 1: Was it from that kind of central place that the idea,

1015
00:57:24,440 --> 00:57:28,400
Speaker 1: the inspiration for the nowhere in came from? Where? Where?

1016
00:57:28,400 --> 00:57:31,040
Speaker 1: Did where did that little where? Did where did that

1017
00:57:31,080 --> 00:57:34,920
Speaker 1: begin to percolate? You know? I guess it was so

1018
00:57:34,920 --> 00:57:38,400
Speaker 1: when Annie put out Mass Seduction, so Annie being st

1019
00:57:38,440 --> 00:57:42,880
Speaker 1: vincent Annie Clark, she put out Mass Seduction, and she

1020
00:57:43,280 --> 00:57:50,240
Speaker 1: asked me to help her with these very stylized interview

1021
00:57:50,720 --> 00:57:54,920
Speaker 1: segments where they were all fake interviews, and so I

1022
00:57:54,960 --> 00:57:59,160
Speaker 1: helped her write the fake questions and they were they

1023
00:57:59,160 --> 00:58:02,800
Speaker 1: were very strange, engine and fun and hopefully sort of funny.

1024
00:58:02,920 --> 00:58:05,880
Speaker 1: And like a year and a half later or whenever,

1025
00:58:05,920 --> 00:58:08,400
Speaker 1: she was kind of wrapping up the Mass Deduction tour,

1026
00:58:08,480 --> 00:58:14,520
Speaker 1: which was this really like cry I mean, I don't

1027
00:58:14,560 --> 00:58:16,160
Speaker 1: even know how to describe it. Like it was so

1028
00:58:16,280 --> 00:58:22,280
Speaker 1: just like it's so formal and like so just like prescriptive,

1029
00:58:22,520 --> 00:58:26,040
Speaker 1: like you know, she had all this pleather and video

1030
00:58:26,160 --> 00:58:28,520
Speaker 1: and like it was just maximalist, Like it was a

1031
00:58:28,680 --> 00:58:31,760
Speaker 1: really intense you know, she's so brilliant a like creating

1032
00:58:32,160 --> 00:58:35,040
Speaker 1: persona and phases in her life and so and Mass

1033
00:58:35,040 --> 00:58:39,080
Speaker 1: Deduction was just intense. It was just this total like sensualist,

1034
00:58:39,240 --> 00:58:42,360
Speaker 1: maximalist overload. And she's like, I think I want to

1035
00:58:42,360 --> 00:58:47,320
Speaker 1: make a concert movie with interstitial sketches, and I was like, okay,

1036
00:58:47,400 --> 00:58:51,520
Speaker 1: let's let's think about that. And then as we started

1037
00:58:51,520 --> 00:58:55,520
Speaker 1: writing these little interstitial sketches, there was just such a

1038
00:58:55,640 --> 00:59:02,000
Speaker 1: jarring contrast between like this very essentially releast scripted like

1039
00:59:02,080 --> 00:59:05,800
Speaker 1: performance as she was putting on like it was all enableedon.

1040
00:59:06,320 --> 00:59:09,840
Speaker 1: The video was like locked into the music, like there

1041
00:59:09,840 --> 00:59:14,520
Speaker 1: just wasn't really room for breathing or improvisation. So to

1042
00:59:14,600 --> 00:59:20,560
Speaker 1: go from something like so boundaried and I don't know

1043
00:59:20,640 --> 00:59:24,200
Speaker 1: that just was kind of playing with things that were

1044
00:59:24,280 --> 00:59:28,800
Speaker 1: really didactic. To go from that to improv was just like, no,

1045
00:59:29,120 --> 00:59:33,400
Speaker 1: can't happen. So we thought like, well, what would be

1046
00:59:33,520 --> 00:59:37,520
Speaker 1: a kind of movie that would actually speak to this

1047
00:59:37,680 --> 00:59:40,640
Speaker 1: version of St. Vincent that you've been exploring in Mass Deduction?

1048
00:59:41,640 --> 00:59:44,800
Speaker 1: And then we just started thinking about like music films

1049
00:59:44,840 --> 00:59:50,160
Speaker 1: and biopics and documentaries, and we're like, well, what she's

1050
00:59:50,200 --> 00:59:53,520
Speaker 1: doing is so artful. We need to just create something

1051
00:59:53,560 --> 00:59:57,200
Speaker 1: that's more has some more hybridity to it, and like

1052
00:59:57,240 --> 00:59:59,800
Speaker 1: allow it to be weird and to kind of speak

1053
00:59:59,840 --> 01:00:03,520
Speaker 1: to ineffable quality of music, which is not you can

1054
01:00:03,560 --> 01:00:07,200
Speaker 1: never quite pinpoint it, you know, you're always coming at

1055
01:00:07,240 --> 01:00:11,480
Speaker 1: it experientially. So the movie is a little more experimental

1056
01:00:11,520 --> 01:00:14,000
Speaker 1: and experiential than anything we set out to do at

1057
01:00:14,000 --> 01:00:16,600
Speaker 1: the beginning, you know, ended up being like a full

1058
01:00:17,080 --> 01:00:21,680
Speaker 1: screenplay instead of just oh here just tend desparate sketch ideas.

1059
01:00:22,080 --> 01:00:25,600
Speaker 1: That's so cool? Does it feel interestingly for Full Circle

1060
01:00:25,680 --> 01:00:28,600
Speaker 1: to have just made this with her as a as

1061
01:00:28,600 --> 01:00:33,160
Speaker 1: a real examination of the persona of an artist and

1062
01:00:33,200 --> 01:00:37,040
Speaker 1: an album, and then to be going back into the

1063
01:00:37,120 --> 01:00:41,040
Speaker 1: studio with Slater Kenny, Like, you have so much music

1064
01:00:41,160 --> 01:00:43,640
Speaker 1: in your life right now. What what's kind of going

1065
01:00:43,680 --> 01:00:47,280
Speaker 1: through your heads as you're diving back into now making

1066
01:00:47,320 --> 01:00:51,600
Speaker 1: your own music? Well, I think I just had a

1067
01:00:51,600 --> 01:00:53,760
Speaker 1: different hat on for nowhere in you know, like it

1068
01:00:53,840 --> 01:00:57,880
Speaker 1: was I was writing it and I'm in it playing

1069
01:00:57,880 --> 01:01:02,640
Speaker 1: a very feckless guileless version of myself. So for me,

1070
01:01:02,720 --> 01:01:08,120
Speaker 1: it wasn't really a musical endeavor, but we did at

1071
01:01:08,120 --> 01:01:12,040
Speaker 1: the time Annie produced one of our records, so that

1072
01:01:12,240 --> 01:01:14,919
Speaker 1: felt very much of a world and then our most

1073
01:01:14,960 --> 01:01:18,120
Speaker 1: recent record we produced ourselves. But I I don't know,

1074
01:01:18,160 --> 01:01:19,800
Speaker 1: I think music for me, I don't know. If you

1075
01:01:19,840 --> 01:01:22,560
Speaker 1: have something like the Senior life, it just operates in

1076
01:01:22,640 --> 01:01:26,360
Speaker 1: like this third space, like it just no one that

1077
01:01:26,480 --> 01:01:30,200
Speaker 1: I work with in terms of like agents or managers,

1078
01:01:30,280 --> 01:01:32,400
Speaker 1: like they're My music is just on its own. And

1079
01:01:32,440 --> 01:01:35,160
Speaker 1: I really like that, Like I just I'm protective of it,

1080
01:01:35,240 --> 01:01:39,040
Speaker 1: and like it just feels like something that came before

1081
01:01:39,560 --> 01:01:42,320
Speaker 1: and will come after, and like it's just there's a

1082
01:01:42,360 --> 01:01:44,960
Speaker 1: real freedom to it, I think, And so I returned

1083
01:01:44,960 --> 01:01:47,240
Speaker 1: to it. I will not surprise that That's what I

1084
01:01:47,240 --> 01:01:50,600
Speaker 1: did a lot during the the pandemic was was focused

1085
01:01:50,640 --> 01:01:55,120
Speaker 1: on music so special. Maybe that's why I'm taking the piano.

1086
01:01:55,200 --> 01:01:57,760
Speaker 1: I'm like, I need I need a thing. Here's the

1087
01:01:57,840 --> 01:02:02,040
Speaker 1: vent and then there's my circle over here. You know that. Yeah,

1088
01:02:02,080 --> 01:02:04,440
Speaker 1: I think it feels important. But you must have you

1089
01:02:04,560 --> 01:02:08,440
Speaker 1: must I mean, yeah, but there's definitely something besides from music,

1090
01:02:08,440 --> 01:02:10,160
Speaker 1: you know, just that thing that you sort of like

1091
01:02:10,200 --> 01:02:12,680
Speaker 1: this is my world. This is whether it's like a

1092
01:02:12,720 --> 01:02:16,920
Speaker 1: relationship or friendships or like nature where you're just like, nope,

1093
01:02:17,280 --> 01:02:21,959
Speaker 1: this is my safe place. Yeah. Absolutely, for me that's

1094
01:02:22,960 --> 01:02:27,680
Speaker 1: often been you know, my close community and nature for sure,

1095
01:02:28,120 --> 01:02:31,840
Speaker 1: just getting kind of out um, which I think is

1096
01:02:32,520 --> 01:02:35,120
Speaker 1: we all need that, we all deserve that whatever you know,

1097
01:02:35,280 --> 01:02:40,880
Speaker 1: feels like home. Yeah, You've had so many incredibly successful

1098
01:02:40,920 --> 01:02:45,200
Speaker 1: projects in different arenas, and I know we're kind of

1099
01:02:45,240 --> 01:02:48,640
Speaker 1: talking about where they all lay in your life right now.

1100
01:02:49,280 --> 01:02:53,880
Speaker 1: Are there other mediums that you see on the horizon

1101
01:02:54,000 --> 01:02:56,560
Speaker 1: that that you'd like to add to this sort of

1102
01:02:57,240 --> 01:03:00,640
Speaker 1: section of rings in your circus? Or are you've very

1103
01:03:00,680 --> 01:03:02,480
Speaker 1: good with the ones you have and you and you

1104
01:03:02,560 --> 01:03:04,760
Speaker 1: just want to continue dipping in and out of those.

1105
01:03:04,960 --> 01:03:08,640
Speaker 1: I think the latter. And it's mostly because even with that,

1106
01:03:08,720 --> 01:03:11,760
Speaker 1: like there were there's just this thing that I've become

1107
01:03:11,840 --> 01:03:15,680
Speaker 1: so wary of in our like hyper capitalist society where

1108
01:03:15,680 --> 01:03:18,440
Speaker 1: it's just productivity, you know, like how much like for

1109
01:03:18,480 --> 01:03:21,440
Speaker 1: a while it just felt like there was a real currency.

1110
01:03:22,040 --> 01:03:24,240
Speaker 1: The currency was like you couldn't just be busy with

1111
01:03:24,320 --> 01:03:26,840
Speaker 1: one thing, but it was like I'm working on this

1112
01:03:27,040 --> 01:03:28,960
Speaker 1: and I'm working on that, and I just was like,

1113
01:03:29,240 --> 01:03:31,840
Speaker 1: who cares? Like I just want to be answer like

1114
01:03:31,880 --> 01:03:34,560
Speaker 1: what are you working on? Nothing? I'm not working on anything,

1115
01:03:34,720 --> 01:03:37,440
Speaker 1: Like I'm just fucking living my life, you know. Like

1116
01:03:37,480 --> 01:03:39,640
Speaker 1: I just I don't like that idea that like in

1117
01:03:39,720 --> 01:03:42,440
Speaker 1: order to be successful or happy or that, Like there's

1118
01:03:42,480 --> 01:03:46,000
Speaker 1: just this bottomless pit of work that we're supposed to

1119
01:03:46,000 --> 01:03:48,640
Speaker 1: be just like moving around in and it just feels

1120
01:03:48,640 --> 01:03:53,040
Speaker 1: so crass and competitive, and so I've really just been

1121
01:03:53,040 --> 01:03:57,000
Speaker 1: trying to focus on one or two things, like it just, uh,

1122
01:03:57,040 --> 01:03:59,880
Speaker 1: it feels like there's diminishing returns sometimes, Like I just

1123
01:04:00,480 --> 01:04:02,680
Speaker 1: I never got to that place where I was felt

1124
01:04:03,280 --> 01:04:05,120
Speaker 1: like I was spreading myself too thin. But I was

1125
01:04:05,160 --> 01:04:09,280
Speaker 1: always wary of that, and so yeah, I think the

1126
01:04:09,320 --> 01:04:11,480
Speaker 1: pandemic was that was clarifying in that way too. It

1127
01:04:11,520 --> 01:04:13,320
Speaker 1: was just like, you know what, I want to work

1128
01:04:13,360 --> 01:04:16,960
Speaker 1: on one thing and try and if it doesn't happen,

1129
01:04:17,520 --> 01:04:19,120
Speaker 1: then it doesn't happen, and then I'll move on to

1130
01:04:19,200 --> 01:04:22,000
Speaker 1: the next thing. I mean, obviously things overlap in all

1131
01:04:22,040 --> 01:04:25,400
Speaker 1: of our lives. We're juggling multiple things, whether it's a

1132
01:04:25,440 --> 01:04:29,560
Speaker 1: couple of work things or work family or whatever. Like

1133
01:04:29,840 --> 01:04:34,040
Speaker 1: it's it's there. It's life is messy and complicated, but

1134
01:04:34,600 --> 01:04:37,200
Speaker 1: I feel like I just have to kind of check myself.

1135
01:04:37,640 --> 01:04:40,800
Speaker 1: I don't need to be firing on all cylinders, Like

1136
01:04:40,800 --> 01:04:42,480
Speaker 1: what does that even mean? You know, like all the

1137
01:04:42,560 --> 01:04:45,560
Speaker 1: all the metaphors, but use just seem like so inhuman.

1138
01:04:46,040 --> 01:04:48,720
Speaker 1: So anyway, Yeah, if I if I take on a

1139
01:04:48,720 --> 01:04:52,240
Speaker 1: new skill, it will be something that is just because

1140
01:04:52,280 --> 01:04:56,000
Speaker 1: I I want to do it for myself and has

1141
01:04:56,040 --> 01:04:59,200
Speaker 1: nothing to do with checking off a box or something.

1142
01:05:00,040 --> 01:05:02,600
Speaker 1: I like that. You bring up the terminology. Someone pointed

1143
01:05:02,640 --> 01:05:05,840
Speaker 1: out to me recently that so many of the terms

1144
01:05:05,840 --> 01:05:10,040
Speaker 1: in our common lexicon are are violent or war based.

1145
01:05:10,280 --> 01:05:13,440
Speaker 1: I'm going to conquer it. I'm gonna beat it. You know,

1146
01:05:14,480 --> 01:05:17,919
Speaker 1: everything is about you know, fighting the battle, and it's

1147
01:05:18,000 --> 01:05:22,720
Speaker 1: so intense. And as I've been trying to think about

1148
01:05:24,320 --> 01:05:28,960
Speaker 1: living more than doing m hmm, I've been thinking a

1149
01:05:28,960 --> 01:05:34,760
Speaker 1: lot about choosing a more tender vocabulary. I'm craving a

1150
01:05:35,000 --> 01:05:39,840
Speaker 1: softer daily existence than I used to. I have no

1151
01:05:39,920 --> 01:05:44,800
Speaker 1: desire to conquer anything. Yeah. I like that. I'd like

1152
01:05:44,840 --> 01:05:48,840
Speaker 1: to be younger. I'd like to be a river. Yeah.

1153
01:05:49,480 --> 01:05:53,880
Speaker 1: I this A friend of mine's girlfriend had this made

1154
01:05:53,880 --> 01:05:57,280
Speaker 1: this like baseball cap and on it it says no goals,

1155
01:05:58,240 --> 01:06:00,479
Speaker 1: And I mean it's a little bit it's a little

1156
01:06:00,520 --> 01:06:03,640
Speaker 1: intense because it is I've warned a couple of times,

1157
01:06:03,680 --> 01:06:05,160
Speaker 1: and in my mind, I sort of like it is

1158
01:06:05,160 --> 01:06:07,040
Speaker 1: because it's just you know, all of that like self

1159
01:06:07,080 --> 01:06:10,640
Speaker 1: care language, which is totally well meaning but can sometimes

1160
01:06:10,720 --> 01:06:15,400
Speaker 1: become its own like addiction, its own like competition, like

1161
01:06:15,440 --> 01:06:17,400
Speaker 1: who can be the most self caring. It's like, it

1162
01:06:17,440 --> 01:06:20,040
Speaker 1: isn't that the like it shouldn't be. We shouldn't be

1163
01:06:20,120 --> 01:06:22,680
Speaker 1: competing at someone else for self care. So you know,

1164
01:06:22,720 --> 01:06:25,240
Speaker 1: I sort of like it as sort of the antithesis

1165
01:06:25,280 --> 01:06:29,760
Speaker 1: of goal oriented life and living. But I have noticed

1166
01:06:29,800 --> 01:06:32,520
Speaker 1: the other day I was sitting outside of a store

1167
01:06:32,600 --> 01:06:34,440
Speaker 1: with my dog and the sky walk around. He's like,

1168
01:06:34,480 --> 01:06:36,880
Speaker 1: no goals, huh, And I was like, yeah, maybe this

1169
01:06:36,920 --> 01:06:40,680
Speaker 1: hat isn't that successful, Like it's but I do know

1170
01:06:40,720 --> 01:06:43,880
Speaker 1: what you mean about just like finding a way. I mean,

1171
01:06:43,960 --> 01:06:47,200
Speaker 1: language is such a lens through which you know, we

1172
01:06:48,000 --> 01:06:51,240
Speaker 1: think about things and how it shapes our thoughts so

1173
01:06:51,360 --> 01:06:53,600
Speaker 1: much that I do think you can really get sucked

1174
01:06:53,640 --> 01:06:58,440
Speaker 1: into both extremes, you know, like the kind of hyper violent,

1175
01:06:58,680 --> 01:07:02,360
Speaker 1: kind of aggressive language and then also language that pretends

1176
01:07:02,440 --> 01:07:06,960
Speaker 1: to be softer, but it's actually just as manipulative, you

1177
01:07:06,960 --> 01:07:08,200
Speaker 1: know what I mean, Like it's kind of like how

1178
01:07:08,280 --> 01:07:10,280
Speaker 1: you use it, I think, more than what the actual

1179
01:07:10,280 --> 01:07:14,080
Speaker 1: words are, the self care language that that's the version

1180
01:07:14,080 --> 01:07:20,600
Speaker 1: of bless her heart, Like we don't want that here either, Yeah, exactly, Well,

1181
01:07:20,840 --> 01:07:23,200
Speaker 1: so I wonder And this is this is my favorite

1182
01:07:23,200 --> 01:07:25,920
Speaker 1: thing to ask. Everybody who you know joins me for

1183
01:07:25,960 --> 01:07:30,760
Speaker 1: a conversation like this, thinking about work and inspiration, what

1184
01:07:30,920 --> 01:07:35,840
Speaker 1: comes next and space for life? What in this moment

1185
01:07:35,960 --> 01:07:41,080
Speaker 1: in your Venn diagram feels like your work in progress?

1186
01:07:41,800 --> 01:07:45,080
Speaker 1: I mean, I think it's definitely less about work and

1187
01:07:45,200 --> 01:07:51,880
Speaker 1: career and more just about being able to appreciate stillness

1188
01:07:52,120 --> 01:07:56,920
Speaker 1: and to sit in discomfort. Is definitely my work in progress,

1189
01:07:57,200 --> 01:08:01,840
Speaker 1: you know too, because I think that can be personal,

1190
01:08:01,880 --> 01:08:04,960
Speaker 1: but it can also be broader than that. To be

1191
01:08:05,040 --> 01:08:07,680
Speaker 1: able to like sit in a in a time that

1192
01:08:07,840 --> 01:08:16,200
Speaker 1: is unclear, that is like murky and uncomfortable, and not

1193
01:08:16,320 --> 01:08:23,840
Speaker 1: to rush to fix it without really understanding it. Or two,

1194
01:08:24,360 --> 01:08:27,800
Speaker 1: go for tools that might be more blunt than they

1195
01:08:27,840 --> 01:08:32,400
Speaker 1: need to be, or perhaps even more sharp than they

1196
01:08:32,439 --> 01:08:34,400
Speaker 1: need to be, you know, like to really just figure out,

1197
01:08:34,600 --> 01:08:38,679
Speaker 1: like wait and sit until something becomes a little more

1198
01:08:38,720 --> 01:08:43,160
Speaker 1: clear or becomes a little more obvious. I guess I

1199
01:08:43,200 --> 01:08:48,040
Speaker 1: think that's that's hard to do, and it's hard to appreciate.

1200
01:08:48,240 --> 01:08:52,679
Speaker 1: I think that liminal space between in action and action.

1201
01:08:53,320 --> 01:08:56,960
Speaker 1: But it's also a good time to reflect, you know.

1202
01:08:57,080 --> 01:09:00,519
Speaker 1: I think I tend to in those moments start kind

1203
01:09:00,520 --> 01:09:03,280
Speaker 1: of thrashing around. And I think a lot of us,

1204
01:09:03,320 --> 01:09:06,600
Speaker 1: do you look at all the kind of reflective outrage

1205
01:09:06,680 --> 01:09:11,639
Speaker 1: that is fomented so easily on social media or just

1206
01:09:11,800 --> 01:09:16,160
Speaker 1: even within ourselves, you know, in a given situation, so reactionary.

1207
01:09:16,520 --> 01:09:19,880
Speaker 1: So I think my work in progress is just sitting

1208
01:09:19,960 --> 01:09:23,400
Speaker 1: with that stillness and discomfort until I learn from it,

1209
01:09:23,600 --> 01:09:25,439
Speaker 1: or maybe don't learn from it, but just be like, Yep,

1210
01:09:25,600 --> 01:09:28,080
Speaker 1: that was really uncomfortable, and now onto the next thing

1211
01:09:29,360 --> 01:09:34,479
Speaker 1: I'm working on. That, Sophia, That's what I'm working on. Yeah,

1212
01:09:34,720 --> 01:09:39,479
Speaker 1: I've label maker my pantry. I can't do it anymore,

1213
01:09:39,479 --> 01:09:41,519
Speaker 1: so I have no way to avoid the discomfort. I

1214
01:09:41,560 --> 01:09:44,960
Speaker 1: have to sit. I'm like, well, I've labeled everything in

1215
01:09:44,960 --> 01:09:47,400
Speaker 1: the house, so the thing that I do when I'm

1216
01:09:47,400 --> 01:09:51,960
Speaker 1: stressed I can't do anymore. And I guess I have

1217
01:09:52,040 --> 01:09:54,960
Speaker 1: to sit with it. Oh that's good. That's a good tool.

1218
01:09:55,280 --> 01:09:57,760
Speaker 1: That's kind of a it's good when you run out

1219
01:09:57,760 --> 01:10:01,000
Speaker 1: of distractions for those things. I think that's I think

1220
01:10:01,040 --> 01:10:03,920
Speaker 1: that's a really good goal for all of us, you know,

1221
01:10:04,120 --> 01:10:07,720
Speaker 1: just be with it. Be with it, alright, Step one,

1222
01:10:07,800 --> 01:10:11,600
Speaker 1: label maker, touch best one. I've tried them all. I

1223
01:10:11,640 --> 01:10:15,400
Speaker 1: can send your family. Oh yeah, I could be that

1224
01:10:15,439 --> 01:10:17,919
Speaker 1: person who like did the h g TV on YouTube

1225
01:10:17,920 --> 01:10:23,160
Speaker 1: like review of of gizmos. Yeah, it's embarrassing, but I

1226
01:10:23,200 --> 01:10:27,960
Speaker 1: really like Wirecutter the New York Times and strategists from

1227
01:10:27,960 --> 01:10:30,840
Speaker 1: New York Magazine like I'm kind of obsessed with, and

1228
01:10:31,080 --> 01:10:33,320
Speaker 1: c net is another one that they do these like

1229
01:10:33,960 --> 01:10:36,720
Speaker 1: reviews of Like any time I'm looking for things I'm like,

1230
01:10:36,960 --> 01:10:39,439
Speaker 1: and it's also things This is such an nonsecutor and

1231
01:10:39,520 --> 01:10:41,479
Speaker 1: probably not how you want to enter in this episode,

1232
01:10:41,479 --> 01:10:44,280
Speaker 1: But I'm always like things that I should just be

1233
01:10:44,320 --> 01:10:48,920
Speaker 1: able to empirically or just like experientially know what I want,

1234
01:10:49,080 --> 01:10:52,320
Speaker 1: like a baking sheet. Who cares? But I'll be like

1235
01:10:52,520 --> 01:10:55,240
Speaker 1: best baking sheet and it's like, yeah, oh my god,

1236
01:10:55,520 --> 01:10:58,400
Speaker 1: why am I researching this? Just go get one. I

1237
01:10:58,439 --> 01:11:01,000
Speaker 1: think I researched though, because I want to get the

1238
01:11:01,200 --> 01:11:05,080
Speaker 1: one so I don't wind up having to get another one. Okay,

1239
01:11:05,520 --> 01:11:07,479
Speaker 1: let's see. This is a really I like how you're

1240
01:11:07,520 --> 01:11:11,080
Speaker 1: turning something that I am looking at as a negative

1241
01:11:11,080 --> 01:11:12,880
Speaker 1: and you're like, no, there's a reason you're doing that,

1242
01:11:13,000 --> 01:11:16,280
Speaker 1: and it's a time and time and money saver. Yeah,

1243
01:11:16,760 --> 01:11:19,000
Speaker 1: next time I need a baking sheet, i'll ask you.

1244
01:11:19,080 --> 01:11:21,840
Speaker 1: So I stopped needing them. I will be your resource

1245
01:11:21,960 --> 01:11:25,120
Speaker 1: for that. Gary, Thank you so much.