WEBVTT - Damages: New Evidence and an Update on Climate Liability Cases

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<v Speaker 1>Hello, and welcome back to Damages, the law focused podcast

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<v Speaker 1>from Drilled. We have a new season coming June third,

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<v Speaker 1>all about the Energy Transfer versus Greenpeace case and the

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<v Speaker 1>countersuit in Europe where Greenpeace has invoked the EU's anti

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<v Speaker 1>slap statute to suit energy Transfer for harassment. It is

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<v Speaker 1>a complicated and fascinating story and I cannot wait for

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<v Speaker 1>you to hear it. In the meantime, I wanted to

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<v Speaker 1>bring you an update on climate cases in the US,

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<v Speaker 1>especially given some of the recent efforts by the Trump

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<v Speaker 1>administration to quash some of them. To help me out

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<v Speaker 1>with that, I've got Kathy Mulvey with the Union of

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<v Speaker 1>Concerned Scientists here today. Kathy is the accountability campaign director

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<v Speaker 1>at UCS, which just released a report called Decades of

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<v Speaker 1>Deception that pulls together in one place all the primary

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<v Speaker 1>documents out there showing what the fossil fuel industry knew

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<v Speaker 1>about climate change, when it knew it, and what they

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<v Speaker 1>did with that information. You might think you already know

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<v Speaker 1>this story. I thought I did, but I learned a

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<v Speaker 1>few things and I hope you will too. I've read

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<v Speaker 1>the report super interesting, and I have a bunch of

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<v Speaker 1>questions for you. But I want to start with the

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<v Speaker 1>question I expect to get from people, which is, Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>what's new, what's new that we didn't already know in

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<v Speaker 1>this report? What do you want to appoint people to

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<v Speaker 1>you on that front?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So what's new is really that we've put these

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<v Speaker 2>documents together in a coherent narrative, so you know, these

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<v Speaker 2>are primary sources about what major fossil fuel corporations knew when,

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<v Speaker 2>about the harms that their products would cause to climate

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<v Speaker 2>and our society, and what they did in spite of

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<v Speaker 2>what they knew. So you know, it's the physical and

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<v Speaker 2>natural science basis of how the companies were aware of

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<v Speaker 2>and even conducting some of that internally, and also the

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<v Speaker 2>basis of climate attribution science as that field has been developing.

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<v Speaker 2>It's also the historical rack of disinformation over the decade,

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<v Speaker 2>from the outright climate science denial to how that has

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<v Speaker 2>become greenwashing, distraction, delay, and even efforts to intimidate climate advocate.

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<v Speaker 2>So you know, one part of the story that is

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<v Speaker 2>still developing really to a hacking scheme that targeted some

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<v Speaker 2>staff members at my organization, the Unit of Concerned Scientists,

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<v Speaker 2>and several other public interest organizations working to hold fossil

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<v Speaker 2>fuel companies accountable for their role in climate change.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I'm going to ask you about more details about

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<v Speaker 1>that whole unfolding story and which is fascinating the first

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<v Speaker 1>I'm curious about. Well, to your point, just a minute ago,

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<v Speaker 1>as I was reading this, I was like, actually, I

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<v Speaker 1>think this is the first I've seen of a report

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<v Speaker 1>that does combine all of these things in one place.

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<v Speaker 2>And then I'm wondering.

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<v Speaker 1>About the timings. What drove the desire to release this now?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you know, I've been working with the Union of

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<v Speaker 2>Concerned Scientists now for almost ten years, and one of

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<v Speaker 2>the first projects that I undertook, actually, the first project

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<v Speaker 2>I undertook was the twenty fifteen climate Discase Dossiers and

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<v Speaker 2>collaboration with former colleague Seth Schulman, who had years before

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<v Speaker 2>that authored the publication Smote, Mirrors and Hot Air that

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<v Speaker 2>shows how the fossil fuel industry has employed many of

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<v Speaker 2>the same strategies and tactics, even some of the same

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<v Speaker 2>front groups and scientists as the tobacco industry, and so

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<v Speaker 2>there are few factors here. The advances in US climate

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<v Speaker 2>accountability ligation against major fossil fuel corporations over climate deception

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<v Speaker 2>and damages, and much of that really relies on evidence

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<v Speaker 2>of disinformation and deception campaigns and many of the document

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<v Speaker 2>that are referenced here in the report. And now, of course,

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<v Speaker 2>the threat that the Trump administration and a fossil fuel

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<v Speaker 2>friendly Congress pose to efforts to hold the fossil fuel

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<v Speaker 2>industry accountable and to the advances, the hard fought advances

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<v Speaker 2>to bend the global warming emissions curve down and accelerate

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<v Speaker 2>the clean energy transition, really mean that the timing is important.

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<v Speaker 2>We need this evidence to be easily accessible and this

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<v Speaker 2>story to be told in a way that people, policy makers, litigators, shareholders,

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<v Speaker 2>and investors can really access it.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, Okay, Now this is a big question, and we

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<v Speaker 1>can probably spend an hour talking just about this, but

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<v Speaker 1>I'm hoping you can give folks a little bit of

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<v Speaker 1>a summary of where we're at right now with the

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<v Speaker 1>threats from Trump. You know, which states have been sued

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<v Speaker 1>to try to stop these cases or super polluter laws

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<v Speaker 1>from going forward, and to the extent that we know

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<v Speaker 1>so far, what has the result of that been, Have

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<v Speaker 1>there been cases thrown out? How is the litigation responding

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<v Speaker 1>to this attempt to really quash these cases.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. So we note that during his campaign, Trump expressed

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<v Speaker 2>opposition to efforts to hold the fossil fuel industry liable

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<v Speaker 2>for climate change and also sought to raise a billion

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<v Speaker 2>dollars from the fossil fuel industry. And we've seen the

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<v Speaker 2>fossil fuel industry have access to the Trump administration and Congress,

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<v Speaker 2>and there have been multiple moves, and one relates to

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<v Speaker 2>the state level efforts to hold fossil fuel corporation accountable.

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<v Speaker 2>So President Trump issued an executive order that attacked states'

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<v Speaker 2>rights to hold fossil fuel companies accountable through legislation and litigation,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, among other efforts that states are pursuing for

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<v Speaker 2>environmental justice. That was one part of that. And we

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<v Speaker 2>have already seen the Department of Justice take action by

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<v Speaker 2>suing preemptively actually Hawaii and Michigan before they filed climate

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<v Speaker 2>accountability litigation. You know, Hawaii went ahead and filed its lawsuits,

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<v Speaker 2>so was not intimidated by that action. The administration also

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<v Speaker 2>sued Vermont in New York State over in their climate

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<v Speaker 2>super fun laws, that laws designed to make fossil fuel

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<v Speaker 2>polluters pay for their role in climate harms. And so

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<v Speaker 2>that's what way that we are already seeing this administration

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<v Speaker 2>take action. We know these cases are advancing in state

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<v Speaker 2>courts around the country where they were filed, and as

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<v Speaker 2>you've covered, you know, the fossil fuel industry it sought

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<v Speaker 2>for up to eight years in some of the cases

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<v Speaker 2>to use procedural maneuvers to.

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<v Speaker 3>Keep them from getting into the courtroom and being heard

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<v Speaker 3>on their merits. And this kind of effort through a

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<v Speaker 3>friendly administration to throw a wrench in the advance of

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<v Speaker 3>those cases really indicates what a threat that litigation poses

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<v Speaker 3>to the fossil fuel industry. So that's one big part

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<v Speaker 3>of how we've seen the Trump administration taking the side

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<v Speaker 3>of the fossil fuel industry. And I should say the

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<v Speaker 3>backdrop to all of this is that all of us

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<v Speaker 3>are experiencing climate impacts in.

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<v Speaker 4>Our day to day lives, right and we're increasingly aware

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<v Speaker 4>of the preventable harms that have been worsened by this

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<v Speaker 4>industry's deception campaign.

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<v Speaker 2>So, you know, another thing to talk specifically about in

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<v Speaker 2>terms of the interventions on the side of the fossil

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<v Speaker 2>fuel industry is the Securities and Exchange Commission last year

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<v Speaker 2>issued a final rule on corporate climate disclosure. And this

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<v Speaker 2>was after many years, and it was significantly watered down

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<v Speaker 2>from what it could have been. But it would compel

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<v Speaker 2>publicly traded companies to assess and report on how climate

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<v Speaker 2>change will affect their bottom lines and by extension, investors

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<v Speaker 2>and the public. And part of the story that we're

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<v Speaker 2>telling in decades deceit is how industry groups that are

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<v Speaker 2>heavily influenced by the fossil fuel industry, like the US

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<v Speaker 2>Chamber of Commerce, have sought to water down that rule

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<v Speaker 2>and then sued to block its implementation, and those securities

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<v Speaker 2>and changed commission under Trump pens indicate it that it

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<v Speaker 2>defend those rules so that vital information for shareholders and

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<v Speaker 2>investors can have now not on getting access to that

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<v Speaker 2>information through the sec is not on the timeline that

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<v Speaker 2>it could have been.

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<v Speaker 1>I'll ask you too about how this all kind of

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<v Speaker 1>fits into the global context, because you know these are

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<v Speaker 1>global companies. This evidence is potentially useful outside of the

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<v Speaker 1>country as well. Do you have any thoughts on whether

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<v Speaker 1>these companies that are getting a huge helping hand by

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<v Speaker 1>the US government could end up being held accountable somewhere else.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's a really good point. The companies that were

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<v Speaker 2>looking at in this report so exon mobil shell in particular,

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<v Speaker 2>but they, the members of the American Petroleum Institute, are

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<v Speaker 2>global in scope, and so the evidence of the deliberate

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<v Speaker 2>campaign of disinformation dating back as far as fifty years

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<v Speaker 2>and in terms of the renowned scientists doctor Edward Teyler

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<v Speaker 2>briefing executives at an American Petroleum Institute event in nineteen

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<v Speaker 2>fifty nine, you know, and then looking forward to the

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<v Speaker 2>early nineteen eighties, I mean, this is a really critical

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<v Speaker 2>point where major fossil fuel companies had really amassed a

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<v Speaker 2>remarkably detailed understanding of the potentially catastrophic effects of their

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<v Speaker 2>products for people the planet. And it's worth noting that

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<v Speaker 2>according to the data set of the carbon majors that's

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<v Speaker 2>hosted by Influence Map one hundred and twenty two, oil, gas, coal,

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<v Speaker 2>and cement companies are responsible for seventy five percent of

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<v Speaker 2>all industrial carbon dioxide emissions since nineteen eighty one. So,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, in terms of the consequences of the deception

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<v Speaker 2>and disinformation and delayed action in the US and globally,

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<v Speaker 2>those kinds of numbers are enormously significant.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, I want to how do you watch us through

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<v Speaker 1>this hacking story. I've been a couple of bits of

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<v Speaker 1>reporting on this that have come out as we learn more,

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<v Speaker 1>but if you could just sort of summarize it for people,

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<v Speaker 1>what happened here and what do we.

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<v Speaker 4>Know so far?

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<v Speaker 2>Are Yeah, so this information has been coming into the

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<v Speaker 2>public into the public domain for a few years now. Right,

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<v Speaker 2>So we know that between twenty fifteen and twenty eighteen,

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<v Speaker 2>hackers attempted to infiltrate the email accounts of key staff

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<v Speaker 2>members the Union of Concerned Scientists and several other nonprofits.

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<v Speaker 2>And through a report published by the Citizen Lab in

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<v Speaker 2>twenty twenty, we learned about that spearfishing campaign, and actually

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<v Speaker 2>one person has pleaded guilty in connection with that campaign. Right.

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<v Speaker 2>A Israeli private investigator named abiram Azzari and the US

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<v Speaker 2>government sentencing memo for him in twenty twenty three said

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<v Speaker 2>that published articles about documents that were stolen and leak

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<v Speaker 2>through that hack really appeared to be designed to undermine

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<v Speaker 2>the integrity of work by state attorneys general to hold

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<v Speaker 2>Exonomobile accountable and also to attack the credibility of some

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<v Speaker 2>of the individual targets of the hacking scheme, So that

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<v Speaker 2>information has been out there for a little bit of time.

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<v Speaker 2>Just this year, new evidence has come to light through

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<v Speaker 2>US government filings and through further investigative journalism and those

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<v Speaker 2>court documents related to an attempt to extradite on It

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<v Speaker 2>four Lett is another accused middleman in this operation. This

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<v Speaker 2>suggests that the US government has evidence that the criminal

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<v Speaker 2>scheme was indirectly paid for by Exon Mobile, and that

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<v Speaker 2>one of Exon Mobiles then lobbying firms, the Washington, d C.

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<v Speaker 2>Based DCI Group, provided a list of targets to a

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<v Speaker 2>middleman link to the hackers and allegedly sent the fruits

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<v Speaker 2>of the hacking to the oil and gas company. So

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<v Speaker 2>you know, this is this is unprecedented, I think in

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<v Speaker 2>terms of fossil fuel accountability. I know from a work

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<v Speaker 2>on the tobacco industry decades ago that the tobacco companies

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<v Speaker 2>conducted surveillance and sought to infiltrate not only public health

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<v Speaker 2>and public interests organizations, but the World Health Organization's itself.

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<v Speaker 2>So the latest development was at the end of April,

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<v Speaker 2>the UK court did order the extradition or agreed with

0:16:05.520 --> 0:16:09.280
<v Speaker 2>the order to the abstradite at FORLA to the US.

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<v Speaker 2>He does have the possibility of appeal, and we expect

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<v Speaker 2>that he may he may seek to appeal that decision.

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<v Speaker 2>But these revelations and the latest step in the process

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<v Speaker 2>have really been an important step toward accountability and toward

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<v Speaker 2>getting to the bottom of this hacking scheme. You know

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<v Speaker 2>who hired and paid for these hackers, LifeLock.

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<v Speaker 1>How can I help the irs that I filed my

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<v Speaker 1>return but I haven't.

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<v Speaker 5>One in four tax paying Americans is paid the price

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<v Speaker 5>of identity fraud?

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<v Speaker 1>What do I do my refund?

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<v Speaker 5>Though I'm freaking out, don't worry. I can fix this.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm so relieved.

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<v Speaker 5>No problem.

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<v Speaker 2>I'll be with you every step the way.

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<v Speaker 1>I worked on the story recently where we were looking

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<v Speaker 1>at how chemical companies do this too. I feel like

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<v Speaker 1>it's become really common, this whole corporate surveillance thing. Right

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<v Speaker 1>for me, I've looked at it so often that on

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<v Speaker 1>this most recent story, it was the other reporter that

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<v Speaker 1>I was working with and I were kind of like, ah,

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<v Speaker 1>but is this even new, because this they all do

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<v Speaker 1>this and like whatever, and then we caught ourselves and

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<v Speaker 1>we're like, no, no, it's still actually really genuinely messed

0:17:38.480 --> 0:17:42.040
<v Speaker 1>up that companies do this. I think that really most

0:17:42.040 --> 0:17:46.440
<v Speaker 1>people don't realize that they do it. In this particular case,

0:17:46.560 --> 0:17:49.840
<v Speaker 1>we found a database that this company was keeping on

0:17:50.320 --> 0:17:53.400
<v Speaker 1>people they considered to be their enemies, which included get

0:17:53.400 --> 0:17:58.240
<v Speaker 1>on the researchers, journalists, activists, a whole bunch of different people,

0:17:58.320 --> 0:18:03.520
<v Speaker 1>and they had really scary details like details of someone's

0:18:03.560 --> 0:18:06.560
<v Speaker 1>divorce and details of an illness and someone's family and

0:18:06.640 --> 0:18:09.360
<v Speaker 1>things like that that are really really genuinely creepy. And

0:18:09.480 --> 0:18:12.439
<v Speaker 1>you know, if if companies have the budget to be

0:18:12.560 --> 0:18:15.479
<v Speaker 1>hiring Israeli surveillance.

0:18:15.400 --> 0:18:17.320
<v Speaker 2>Organization, that's fine.

0:18:18.920 --> 0:18:21.679
<v Speaker 1>Being the sort of information they can get to and

0:18:21.720 --> 0:18:24.640
<v Speaker 1>the way that that can be weaponized is really really scary.

0:18:25.040 --> 0:18:28.719
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it really is, right, And so for you know,

0:18:28.800 --> 0:18:33.160
<v Speaker 2>for staff at nonprofit organizations, so we're doing the work

0:18:33.200 --> 0:18:37.080
<v Speaker 2>to carry out their public interest missions. For an organization

0:18:37.280 --> 0:18:41.240
<v Speaker 2>like us, who we're working with scientists who are doing

0:18:41.400 --> 0:18:49.040
<v Speaker 2>the the natural and social science work to compare the

0:18:49.119 --> 0:18:54.359
<v Speaker 2>science and the scientific understanding inside the corporations with what

0:18:54.440 --> 0:18:57.880
<v Speaker 2>was what's happening with your governmental panel on climate change

0:18:57.880 --> 0:19:00.760
<v Speaker 2>at the same time. For example, for people well doing

0:19:00.960 --> 0:19:05.520
<v Speaker 2>this work for the benefit of society to be attacked,

0:19:05.840 --> 0:19:14.920
<v Speaker 2>to have their motivations misrepresented, to be falsely accused of conspiring,

0:19:15.359 --> 0:19:20.400
<v Speaker 2>could have a chilling effect on work that really urgently

0:19:20.440 --> 0:19:23.800
<v Speaker 2>needs to be done in a world where we're dealing

0:19:23.800 --> 0:19:26.600
<v Speaker 2>with the impacts of a climate crisis every day. So

0:19:27.720 --> 0:19:33.960
<v Speaker 2>it is incredibly significant. And yeah, although pictures of this

0:19:34.600 --> 0:19:37.680
<v Speaker 2>puzzle have been out there for some time, I mean

0:19:37.880 --> 0:19:43.680
<v Speaker 2>Exon Mobile once had a website that was called Understanding

0:19:43.800 --> 0:19:49.720
<v Speaker 2>the Exon New Controversy that featured some of the stolen materials.

0:19:50.320 --> 0:19:54.320
<v Speaker 2>To for the first time have public court evidence that

0:19:54.680 --> 0:19:59.080
<v Speaker 2>link Sexon Mobile and one of it then lobbying firms

0:19:59.520 --> 0:20:06.800
<v Speaker 2>to the the hacking conspiracy is significant. I should say

0:20:07.080 --> 0:20:12.200
<v Speaker 2>that both Exxon Mobile and DCI Group deny any involvement

0:20:12.600 --> 0:20:17.400
<v Speaker 2>in the hacking scheme and have maintained that they had

0:20:17.480 --> 0:20:19.240
<v Speaker 2>nothing to do with it.

0:20:19.440 --> 0:20:22.520
<v Speaker 1>That's very interesting, yess or a universe in which in

0:20:22.560 --> 0:20:25.560
<v Speaker 1>one of these cases, either in the US or maybe

0:20:25.600 --> 0:20:28.920
<v Speaker 1>outside the US, that that could be compelled.

0:20:29.359 --> 0:20:32.680
<v Speaker 2>I think it's definitely worth calling for it. I think

0:20:32.880 --> 0:20:39.800
<v Speaker 2>especially because we've understood again from the filings and the

0:20:40.440 --> 0:20:46.520
<v Speaker 2>related investigative journalism, is that the DC based lobbying group

0:20:46.680 --> 0:20:49.719
<v Speaker 2>and I quote acted on behalf of one of the

0:20:49.760 --> 0:20:54.760
<v Speaker 2>world's largest oil and gas corporations centered in Irving, Texas

0:20:55.359 --> 0:21:00.159
<v Speaker 2>in relation to ongoing climate change litigation being brought against it.

0:21:00.800 --> 0:21:05.919
<v Speaker 2>So at the time that this hacking operation began, Exon

0:21:06.000 --> 0:21:10.960
<v Speaker 2>Mobil was headquartered in Irving, Texas. They since their headquarters

0:21:11.000 --> 0:21:15.639
<v Speaker 2>to Houston. And this is just this is so significant

0:21:15.960 --> 0:21:22.120
<v Speaker 2>because this is ten years ago before there was as

0:21:22.320 --> 0:21:27.520
<v Speaker 2>investigations by state attorneys general were just getting started, right,

0:21:27.640 --> 0:21:34.959
<v Speaker 2>And so if that is indeed motivation behind the hacking scheme,

0:21:35.960 --> 0:21:41.240
<v Speaker 2>then what we see our climate accountability litigation claims that

0:21:41.960 --> 0:21:47.760
<v Speaker 2>are now advancing that really focus on the deception and

0:21:47.840 --> 0:21:54.600
<v Speaker 2>disinformation as the center of consumer protection and alleged fraud complaints.

0:21:55.440 --> 0:22:02.040
<v Speaker 6>And then you know Exon Mobile actually using yeah, information

0:22:02.400 --> 0:22:07.240
<v Speaker 6>that was obtained through a hacking operation and in the

0:22:07.400 --> 0:22:13.199
<v Speaker 6>public through a hacking operation to perpetuate and expand that

0:22:13.320 --> 0:22:18.840
<v Speaker 6>disinformation right by misrepresenting what the accountability work is about.

0:22:19.080 --> 0:22:24.199
<v Speaker 6>So it is connected to very much the efforts to

0:22:24.280 --> 0:22:29.320
<v Speaker 6>hold the fossil fuel corporations accountable through litigation and the election.

0:22:29.880 --> 0:22:32.399
<v Speaker 1>It's such a weird and creepy story and look like

0:22:33.280 --> 0:22:39.160
<v Speaker 1>irrespective of your thoughts on climate and oil companies, the

0:22:39.200 --> 0:22:42.840
<v Speaker 1>idea that it's just been normalized for corporations to do

0:22:43.800 --> 0:22:49.280
<v Speaker 1>intensive surveillance on citizens is pretty scary and gross, and

0:22:49.320 --> 0:22:52.359
<v Speaker 1>I don't think most people think it's good.

0:22:55.800 --> 0:22:59.000
<v Speaker 2>I don't think so either. That's another thing that's interesting

0:22:59.080 --> 0:23:03.480
<v Speaker 2>about this, right, is that I mean this hacking operation,

0:23:04.480 --> 0:23:08.160
<v Speaker 2>what was massive? Right. There were one hundred and twenty

0:23:08.280 --> 0:23:12.760
<v Speaker 2>eight targets provided that were related to the work to

0:23:12.800 --> 0:23:16.399
<v Speaker 2>hold the fossil fuel industry accountable for climate change, but

0:23:16.440 --> 0:23:20.160
<v Speaker 2>there were a whole range of other targets. And it's

0:23:20.240 --> 0:23:26.520
<v Speaker 2>really a criminal hacking operation without any any political or

0:23:26.920 --> 0:23:31.320
<v Speaker 2>scientific dimensions to it. So that's where it was it

0:23:31.400 --> 0:23:34.560
<v Speaker 2>was especially interesting.

0:23:34.640 --> 0:23:38.560
<v Speaker 7>One might say it's cynical that the defense mad level

0:23:39.160 --> 0:23:45.480
<v Speaker 7>by Corlet's attorneys, where they were attempting to prevent the extradition,

0:23:46.240 --> 0:23:52.000
<v Speaker 7>claimed that he was actually being persecuted for his political views.

0:23:51.680 --> 0:23:58.520
<v Speaker 2>On climate change. For how political views that were similar

0:23:58.600 --> 0:24:01.120
<v Speaker 2>to at some mobile.

0:24:01.119 --> 0:24:04.120
<v Speaker 1>So interesting, you're part of their legal argument too, right,

0:24:04.240 --> 0:24:04.679
<v Speaker 1>is that like?

0:24:04.800 --> 0:24:06.800
<v Speaker 2>Right? Exactly exactly, he's like.

0:24:06.800 --> 0:24:10.359
<v Speaker 1>That political belief in there for a First Amendment issue.

0:24:10.800 --> 0:24:13.919
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Wow. You know here's a guy who really, if

0:24:13.960 --> 0:24:17.040
<v Speaker 2>the allegations are true, he was in it for the money.

0:24:17.119 --> 0:24:19.520
<v Speaker 2>He's a hacker for hire or a middle man.

0:24:19.840 --> 0:24:22.000
<v Speaker 1>Right, It's not like he had some long history as

0:24:22.000 --> 0:24:23.200
<v Speaker 1>a political pundit.

0:24:24.880 --> 0:24:28.879
<v Speaker 2>The DC based lobbying group according to the filings paid

0:24:29.240 --> 0:24:32.520
<v Speaker 2>for what's firm, he's a total of sixteen million dollars

0:24:32.560 --> 0:24:34.640
<v Speaker 2>between twenty thirteen and twenty eighteen.

0:24:35.400 --> 0:24:37.160
<v Speaker 1>Wow, So that's.

0:24:37.000 --> 0:24:39.560
<v Speaker 2>Said, that's a lucrative operation.

0:24:40.560 --> 0:24:45.119
<v Speaker 1>In the past decade or so, litigation has been this

0:24:45.280 --> 0:24:49.320
<v Speaker 1>point of optimism for people that there's this tool that

0:24:49.400 --> 0:24:54.040
<v Speaker 1>we can use as dubbernment's continue to fail to be

0:24:54.400 --> 0:24:59.040
<v Speaker 1>aggressive or not for these policies to reduce emissions. Do

0:24:59.080 --> 0:25:01.119
<v Speaker 1>you still feel like that's the key? But do you

0:25:01.160 --> 0:25:04.359
<v Speaker 1>think that despite all these efforts to try to a

0:25:04.359 --> 0:25:07.680
<v Speaker 1>stop these particular cases in the US, that litigation still

0:25:07.720 --> 0:25:09.399
<v Speaker 1>provides hope will path forward?

0:25:11.320 --> 0:25:19.200
<v Speaker 2>Yeah? Absolutely. The US cases are proceeding towards consideration on.

0:25:19.280 --> 0:25:23.920
<v Speaker 8>Their merit, and that should be an opportunity for the

0:25:24.040 --> 0:25:30.800
<v Speaker 8>state claims that are around consumer protection and public nuisance

0:25:30.840 --> 0:25:35.240
<v Speaker 8>for example, you know, have the opportunity to.

0:25:35.400 --> 0:25:40.879
<v Speaker 2>Be heard in court. So that the evidence that we've

0:25:40.920 --> 0:25:45.880
<v Speaker 2>compiled here in this report, documentation and primary sources that

0:25:46.200 --> 0:25:53.080
<v Speaker 2>have been made public through arrange of investigations by Congress

0:25:53.080 --> 0:25:58.280
<v Speaker 2>by investigative journalism, this evidence could be really important in

0:25:58.280 --> 0:26:04.359
<v Speaker 2>informing cases that are happening in other jurisdictions and on

0:26:06.040 --> 0:26:09.880
<v Speaker 2>other types of claims to hold the fossil fuel corporations

0:26:10.080 --> 0:26:14.840
<v Speaker 2>accountable for their role in climate change. So absolutely that

0:26:14.880 --> 0:26:21.240
<v Speaker 2>there are numerous pass for fossil fuel accountability that are

0:26:21.440 --> 0:26:25.159
<v Speaker 2>proceeding around the world, and there really should be an

0:26:25.240 --> 0:26:31.800
<v Speaker 2>opportunity for communities to cause access to justice for the

0:26:32.080 --> 0:26:33.480
<v Speaker 2>harm that we're all facing.

0:26:35.680 --> 0:26:38.480
<v Speaker 1>That is it for this week. Make sure you're subscribed

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<v Speaker 1>and more. Damages is an original Critical Frequency production. This

0:27:08.640 --> 0:27:12.080
<v Speaker 1>episode was produced by Peter duff Our. Fact checker is

0:27:12.080 --> 0:27:16.359
<v Speaker 1>Shilpa Gindia. Artwork by Matt Fleming. James Wheaton of The

0:27:16.400 --> 0:27:20.239
<v Speaker 1>First Amendment Project is our First Amendment lawyer. Thanks for

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<v Speaker 1>listening and we'll see you next time.