1 00:00:02,400 --> 00:00:06,200 Speaker 1: There's this feeling there. Moms are good no matter what. 2 00:00:06,320 --> 00:00:09,119 Speaker 1: Moms are good even if they do the wrong thing. 3 00:00:10,080 --> 00:00:13,400 Speaker 1: It's because they love you so much. If you need 4 00:00:13,520 --> 00:00:28,720 Speaker 1: to accept the lie to live, then you accept the lie. 5 00:00:29,440 --> 00:00:32,800 Speaker 2: I'm Andrea Gunning and this is Betrayal, a show about 6 00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:36,040 Speaker 2: the people we trust the most and the deceptions that 7 00:00:36,240 --> 00:00:44,639 Speaker 2: change everything. Today we're telling Helen Naeler's story. Helen grew 8 00:00:44,760 --> 00:00:46,120 Speaker 2: up in the Midlands of the UK. 9 00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:49,880 Speaker 1: The place where I was born was a really little town, 10 00:00:50,520 --> 00:00:54,800 Speaker 1: so you basically knew everybody, and I'd walk through town 11 00:00:54,880 --> 00:00:56,680 Speaker 1: and bump into ten people I knew. 12 00:00:57,160 --> 00:01:00,920 Speaker 2: She was an only child. Her parents were Eleanor and Allan. 13 00:01:01,400 --> 00:01:04,680 Speaker 1: We lived in a really nice three bedroom semi detached 14 00:01:05,120 --> 00:01:09,360 Speaker 1: which was painted yellow with a brightly door. They have 15 00:01:09,680 --> 00:01:14,279 Speaker 1: very seventies taste in decor, so it quite swirly brown 16 00:01:14,360 --> 00:01:19,560 Speaker 1: carpets and very peach. If there was a color choice, 17 00:01:19,560 --> 00:01:20,200 Speaker 1: it was peach. 18 00:01:20,880 --> 00:01:23,440 Speaker 2: Helen's parents were older than her friend's parents. 19 00:01:24,080 --> 00:01:26,959 Speaker 1: Mum was thirty five when she had me. My dad 20 00:01:27,040 --> 00:01:31,160 Speaker 1: was over forty, and at the time that was quite 21 00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:31,759 Speaker 1: a big deal. 22 00:01:32,840 --> 00:01:35,520 Speaker 2: Helen was very young when her dad's health took a 23 00:01:35,560 --> 00:01:36,400 Speaker 2: turn for the worse. 24 00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:40,720 Speaker 1: When I was seven, my dad was diagnosed with heart 25 00:01:40,760 --> 00:01:46,440 Speaker 1: and lung problems. He had cardia myopathy and asthma that 26 00:01:46,640 --> 00:01:48,160 Speaker 1: eventually became emphysina. 27 00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:53,920 Speaker 2: Not long after her dad's diagnosis, Helen's mom, Eleanor, also 28 00:01:54,000 --> 00:01:59,200 Speaker 2: got sick. She stopped getting out of bed and stopped 29 00:01:59,200 --> 00:02:02,440 Speaker 2: being able to play with Helen. She was diagnosed with 30 00:02:02,640 --> 00:02:07,960 Speaker 2: ME my algic and cephalomyelitis, also known as chronic fatigue syndrome. 31 00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:11,640 Speaker 2: It can cause muscle and join pain, dizziness, and headaches. 32 00:02:12,200 --> 00:02:17,560 Speaker 1: The most common symptom is extreme tiredness, making any activities difficult, 33 00:02:18,120 --> 00:02:22,000 Speaker 1: going for a shour, going to work. You can not 34 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:25,239 Speaker 1: sleep well, you can have problems cognitively. 35 00:02:26,280 --> 00:02:29,960 Speaker 2: ME can cause debilitating exhaustion. It's chronic, and there is 36 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:33,880 Speaker 2: no cure. The disease sometimes occurs after a viral infection, 37 00:02:34,520 --> 00:02:37,920 Speaker 2: kind of like a long COVID. Treatments are designed to 38 00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:41,800 Speaker 2: help patients manage their symptoms and learn to adjust to 39 00:02:41,880 --> 00:02:43,560 Speaker 2: a much slower pace of life. 40 00:02:44,200 --> 00:02:46,920 Speaker 1: My mom used to say if she wanted to do something, 41 00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:50,320 Speaker 1: she'd have to spend a week resting to prepare to 42 00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:53,840 Speaker 1: do that thing, and then a week after resting to 43 00:02:53,840 --> 00:02:54,520 Speaker 1: get over it. 44 00:02:55,760 --> 00:02:58,959 Speaker 2: Her mom retired early because of her illness. So from 45 00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:02,160 Speaker 2: the age of seven on, Helen grew up with two 46 00:03:02,360 --> 00:03:05,960 Speaker 2: sick parents. Her life revolved around their illnesses. 47 00:03:06,960 --> 00:03:12,080 Speaker 1: It completely shaped my life. I was the child of 48 00:03:12,120 --> 00:03:15,239 Speaker 1: two disabled people, and that was my identity. 49 00:03:16,440 --> 00:03:18,680 Speaker 2: While her friends were in first grade learning to read, 50 00:03:19,200 --> 00:03:22,880 Speaker 2: Helen was worrying about her parents, especially her mom. 51 00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:26,880 Speaker 1: Although I knew that my dad's illnesses were more serious, 52 00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:29,240 Speaker 1: life revolved around my mom. 53 00:03:29,840 --> 00:03:33,200 Speaker 2: Her mom's chronic fatigue took over their family's life completely. 54 00:03:33,919 --> 00:03:37,280 Speaker 2: Eleanor slept for eighteen hours a day and didn't even 55 00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:39,600 Speaker 2: have enough energy to walk to the mailbox. 56 00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:43,040 Speaker 1: She wouldn't walk me to the end of the road. 57 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:45,880 Speaker 1: We're talking like a small road with a corner shop 58 00:03:45,920 --> 00:03:48,200 Speaker 1: at the bottom, and she wouldn't walk me there because 59 00:03:48,200 --> 00:03:52,680 Speaker 1: she couldn't. She would be in bed every afternoon that 60 00:03:52,760 --> 00:03:55,760 Speaker 1: I remember. We didn't go out at weekends. 61 00:03:56,280 --> 00:03:59,160 Speaker 2: On the rare occasion that they did leave the house together, 62 00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:02,960 Speaker 2: they had to adapt their activities around her mom if 63 00:04:02,960 --> 00:04:06,280 Speaker 2: they went shopping. Eleanor wrote a mobility scooter. 64 00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:11,280 Speaker 1: As a teenager. That was so embarrassing, Like already I 65 00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:15,000 Speaker 1: had these parents who were older, and they stood out 66 00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:18,719 Speaker 1: and now she was on this scooter like hurling around 67 00:04:19,040 --> 00:04:22,040 Speaker 1: the shopping center. I was just so mortified. 68 00:04:23,600 --> 00:04:27,360 Speaker 2: But over time, Helen got over the embarrassment and learned 69 00:04:27,360 --> 00:04:32,080 Speaker 2: to accept her mom. Helen became her primary caretaker because 70 00:04:32,120 --> 00:04:36,080 Speaker 2: they didn't have any extended family nearby, and Helen's dad 71 00:04:36,640 --> 00:04:38,719 Speaker 2: spent most nights at the pub drinking. 72 00:04:39,720 --> 00:04:42,400 Speaker 1: My dad was a really isolated figure. He didn't have 73 00:04:42,440 --> 00:04:46,239 Speaker 1: many friends, he wasn't at work, he didn't have close 74 00:04:46,279 --> 00:04:49,960 Speaker 1: family members. He was a functioning alcoholic one hundred percent. 75 00:04:50,880 --> 00:04:55,240 Speaker 1: I can't remember seeing him anything but a happy drunk. 76 00:04:55,800 --> 00:05:00,360 Speaker 1: He wasn't aggressive, but undoubtedly he was an alcohol. 77 00:05:01,440 --> 00:05:04,560 Speaker 2: So Helen and her mom leaned on each other. It 78 00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:05,840 Speaker 2: was them against the world. 79 00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:09,560 Speaker 1: I had a really close relationship with my mom. She 80 00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:14,080 Speaker 1: was my best friend. I talked to her about everything. 81 00:05:14,600 --> 00:05:19,159 Speaker 1: I absolutely adored her. I thought she was perfect, absolutely perfect. 82 00:05:19,960 --> 00:05:22,839 Speaker 2: But her mom needed a lot of support. 83 00:05:22,839 --> 00:05:25,760 Speaker 1: And there was a sense of if my mom said jump, 84 00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:26,920 Speaker 1: then you had to jump. 85 00:05:27,480 --> 00:05:29,599 Speaker 2: Helen would come home from school and go straight to 86 00:05:29,640 --> 00:05:32,159 Speaker 2: her mom's bedside. She'd sit on the edge of the 87 00:05:32,160 --> 00:05:35,360 Speaker 2: bed and tell her mom about her day. Then Helen 88 00:05:35,440 --> 00:05:37,560 Speaker 2: would make her mom a snack and set up a 89 00:05:37,560 --> 00:05:39,120 Speaker 2: place for her to rest on the couch. 90 00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:41,880 Speaker 1: We would watch on TV together and drink a cup 91 00:05:41,880 --> 00:05:47,160 Speaker 1: of tea. I felt very very responsible for her. I 92 00:05:47,240 --> 00:05:51,680 Speaker 1: was responsible for my parents' happiness and my parents' emotional stability. 93 00:05:53,839 --> 00:05:57,960 Speaker 2: Eleanor's emmy was debilitating, but over time she found other 94 00:05:58,080 --> 00:06:00,640 Speaker 2: people who struggled with the same simils dumbs. 95 00:06:01,200 --> 00:06:03,800 Speaker 1: She was a part of an m group in the 96 00:06:03,839 --> 00:06:07,839 Speaker 1: town and ended up leading it, and so every week 97 00:06:07,920 --> 00:06:11,640 Speaker 1: she would have to sort of run these meetings. She'd 98 00:06:11,640 --> 00:06:15,240 Speaker 1: do all this research to then write newsletters for the 99 00:06:15,360 --> 00:06:15,880 Speaker 1: me group. 100 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:19,320 Speaker 2: Helen was proud of her mom pro finding purpose in 101 00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:22,400 Speaker 2: community even though she was struggling with her disease. 102 00:06:23,360 --> 00:06:26,360 Speaker 1: She actually won an award for being a health champion. 103 00:06:27,279 --> 00:06:29,960 Speaker 2: Helen's mom went to bed early every night. 104 00:06:30,839 --> 00:06:32,599 Speaker 1: My mom would go to bed, my dad would go 105 00:06:32,640 --> 00:06:36,240 Speaker 1: down the pub, and I was just left to entertain myself. 106 00:06:38,279 --> 00:06:40,919 Speaker 1: It was important that I was silent, because if I 107 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:44,120 Speaker 1: made any noise then I would wake my mom. So 108 00:06:44,440 --> 00:06:47,839 Speaker 1: I would watch TV with subtitles on and no sound. 109 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:51,200 Speaker 2: When her own world in her little yellow house got 110 00:06:51,240 --> 00:06:55,560 Speaker 2: too small, Helen escaped into her dream world. She loved 111 00:06:55,640 --> 00:06:56,080 Speaker 2: to write. 112 00:06:56,520 --> 00:06:59,279 Speaker 1: I wrote a lot of stories. I wrote a story 113 00:06:59,320 --> 00:07:02,520 Speaker 1: about a girl who went into her loft and disappeared 114 00:07:02,600 --> 00:07:07,680 Speaker 1: into a wonderful alternative reality with a happy family. I 115 00:07:07,760 --> 00:07:10,560 Speaker 1: used to dance around the guard and singing. I'm sure 116 00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:11,600 Speaker 1: the neighbors loved it. 117 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:16,480 Speaker 2: One day, when Helen was eight, she overheard her mom 118 00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:18,080 Speaker 2: talking about her dad's health. 119 00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:22,760 Speaker 1: I heard my mom say the doctor said he could 120 00:07:22,800 --> 00:07:28,760 Speaker 1: just drop dead at any minute. I remember switching around 121 00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:33,520 Speaker 1: and looking at her, absolutely horrified, and that weighed on 122 00:07:33,640 --> 00:07:36,720 Speaker 1: me for the rest of my childhood. 123 00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:41,960 Speaker 2: Hearing that shifted Helen's mindset. Even as a child, she 124 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:45,280 Speaker 2: felt responsible for her mom. She also learned to be 125 00:07:45,320 --> 00:07:48,480 Speaker 2: extremely tuned into her mom. She tried to do whatever 126 00:07:48,560 --> 00:07:52,600 Speaker 2: she could to make her happy. Over time, Helen lost 127 00:07:52,640 --> 00:07:56,040 Speaker 2: track of where her mom's needs ended and where hers began. 128 00:07:56,840 --> 00:07:59,280 Speaker 1: She used to tell me my likes and dislikes. I 129 00:07:59,440 --> 00:08:04,160 Speaker 1: liked Sally, I liked strawberries. Those were my favorites. I 130 00:08:04,240 --> 00:08:05,720 Speaker 1: deferred to her opinion. 131 00:08:06,400 --> 00:08:09,080 Speaker 2: Helen learned to look to her mom for answers she 132 00:08:09,280 --> 00:08:13,320 Speaker 2: idolized her. As a teenager, Helen missed out on typical 133 00:08:13,400 --> 00:08:17,920 Speaker 2: teenage experiences because as soon as school ended, she went 134 00:08:17,960 --> 00:08:19,920 Speaker 2: home to take care of her parents. 135 00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:23,200 Speaker 1: In my teens, my average day would look like I 136 00:08:23,240 --> 00:08:25,960 Speaker 1: would get up and go to school. My parents were 137 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:28,840 Speaker 1: both at home all day every day. My dad would 138 00:08:28,880 --> 00:08:30,880 Speaker 1: go to the pub every day, then my mom would 139 00:08:30,880 --> 00:08:33,160 Speaker 1: go for a nap every day, and then I'd come 140 00:08:33,200 --> 00:08:38,440 Speaker 1: home and it was just all very insulated. 141 00:08:39,760 --> 00:08:43,120 Speaker 2: But then when Helen was sixteen, there was finally a 142 00:08:43,160 --> 00:08:45,680 Speaker 2: break from their quiet, careful routine. 143 00:08:46,280 --> 00:08:49,360 Speaker 1: We went on this like once in a lifetime holiday. 144 00:08:49,840 --> 00:08:51,760 Speaker 1: We decided to go to America. 145 00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:55,200 Speaker 2: They planned to spend a few days in Chicago, then 146 00:08:55,240 --> 00:08:59,280 Speaker 2: two weeks vacationing in Wisconsin and visiting extended family that 147 00:08:59,360 --> 00:09:02,320 Speaker 2: lived there. Helen was worried about the strain and the 148 00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:03,560 Speaker 2: trip would take on her mom. 149 00:09:04,280 --> 00:09:06,800 Speaker 1: We went to the airport and she was in a 150 00:09:06,800 --> 00:09:09,680 Speaker 1: wheelchair being wheeled to the aeroplane. 151 00:09:10,280 --> 00:09:12,559 Speaker 2: But to Helen's surprise, we. 152 00:09:12,559 --> 00:09:15,480 Speaker 1: Got to America and for two weeks she was just 153 00:09:15,679 --> 00:09:20,960 Speaker 1: a normal mum. She was walking around. Literally, we had 154 00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:25,920 Speaker 1: a non stop holiday. We did something every single day. 155 00:09:26,480 --> 00:09:32,240 Speaker 1: We went to water shows, water parks. We got up 156 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:34,360 Speaker 1: in the morning and went to a diner, and then 157 00:09:34,480 --> 00:09:36,560 Speaker 1: went and saw my cousins and then went out for 158 00:09:36,600 --> 00:09:41,200 Speaker 1: the day and did something ridiculously American, and then we 159 00:09:41,400 --> 00:09:44,839 Speaker 1: did something in the evening. It was just this incredible 160 00:09:44,920 --> 00:09:49,720 Speaker 1: experience for me, like life changing. And what was the 161 00:09:49,760 --> 00:09:55,040 Speaker 1: most amazing was that my parents were both well. My 162 00:09:55,120 --> 00:09:57,679 Speaker 1: mom said the heat made my dad's chest better. 163 00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:02,800 Speaker 2: The climate also seemed to help with her mom's chronic fatigue. 164 00:10:03,400 --> 00:10:06,960 Speaker 1: I just thought, oh, my goodness, America has cured my parents. 165 00:10:07,400 --> 00:10:08,920 Speaker 1: America has made them better. 166 00:10:10,080 --> 00:10:13,520 Speaker 2: Helen was ecstatic. It was like she slipped into a 167 00:10:13,559 --> 00:10:17,320 Speaker 2: better world where her parents were healthy and they were 168 00:10:17,360 --> 00:10:21,280 Speaker 2: a normal, happy family. But the dream didn't last. 169 00:10:21,520 --> 00:10:24,000 Speaker 1: We got on the plane to come home, and we 170 00:10:24,160 --> 00:10:26,120 Speaker 1: got back to the UK and she was back in 171 00:10:26,160 --> 00:10:29,720 Speaker 1: that wheelchair being wheeled back through the airport, as if 172 00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:35,480 Speaker 1: the last two weeks hadn't happened. It was a huge 173 00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:39,680 Speaker 1: moment for me. I saw what my life could be like. 174 00:10:41,679 --> 00:10:44,959 Speaker 1: And I was like, why are we not going to America? 175 00:10:45,559 --> 00:10:47,760 Speaker 1: Why are we not packing up and going because you 176 00:10:47,840 --> 00:10:51,000 Speaker 1: could be well, you tell me all the time how 177 00:10:51,040 --> 00:10:54,640 Speaker 1: you wish she could be. Well, we've got the answer. 178 00:10:55,600 --> 00:10:56,320 Speaker 2: Let's just go. 179 00:10:58,920 --> 00:11:02,360 Speaker 1: I prayed every night for my parents to be better. 180 00:11:03,280 --> 00:11:07,240 Speaker 1: The idea that it was within gross was just like 181 00:11:08,120 --> 00:11:09,160 Speaker 1: I couldn't understand. 182 00:11:34,480 --> 00:11:37,120 Speaker 2: On a family trip to the US, Helen's mom, who 183 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:41,200 Speaker 2: was normally chronically ill and stuck in bed, experienced major 184 00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:44,760 Speaker 2: relief from her symptoms. Her dad, who had serious heart 185 00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:49,240 Speaker 2: and lung problems, was doing much better too. On their trip, 186 00:11:49,400 --> 00:11:52,560 Speaker 2: both her parents had energy and they went on adventures 187 00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:57,320 Speaker 2: together every day. Helen was overjoyed they had found a 188 00:11:57,360 --> 00:12:07,000 Speaker 2: cure for her parents America, but when they got back 189 00:12:07,040 --> 00:12:11,040 Speaker 2: to England, their symptoms became as debilitating as they were before. 190 00:12:11,679 --> 00:12:15,280 Speaker 2: Helen wasn't ready to accept that this was their normal again. 191 00:12:19,080 --> 00:12:23,160 Speaker 1: It was a huge moment in that I saw what 192 00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:27,120 Speaker 1: my life could be like, and I was like, why 193 00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:29,720 Speaker 1: are we not going to America? Why are we not 194 00:12:29,800 --> 00:12:32,840 Speaker 1: packing up and going because you could be well, you 195 00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:36,240 Speaker 1: tell me all the time how you wish she could be. Well, 196 00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:40,240 Speaker 1: we've got the answer, Let's just go. 197 00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:43,960 Speaker 2: But her parents didn't want to move to the US, 198 00:12:44,559 --> 00:12:47,679 Speaker 2: so Helen channeled her energy into doing well in school 199 00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:49,559 Speaker 2: so that she could have a life. 200 00:12:49,559 --> 00:12:53,160 Speaker 1: Ever on, I did really well in my A levels 201 00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:56,520 Speaker 1: and then off I went to university and I went 202 00:12:56,559 --> 00:13:01,280 Speaker 1: to Nottingham, which it isn't even the top three cities 203 00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:05,280 Speaker 1: in the UK. Yet I felt like I was in 204 00:13:05,320 --> 00:13:09,760 Speaker 1: this enormous city that was totally overwhelming. I walked through 205 00:13:09,800 --> 00:13:12,280 Speaker 1: ten and I didn't see anyone I knew. That was 206 00:13:12,320 --> 00:13:13,560 Speaker 1: really shocking to me. 207 00:13:15,760 --> 00:13:19,120 Speaker 2: Helen had spent her childhood in teenage years hyper focused 208 00:13:19,160 --> 00:13:21,960 Speaker 2: on her parents' health, living in a town where she 209 00:13:22,040 --> 00:13:26,000 Speaker 2: knew everyone. When she left for college, she was plunged 210 00:13:26,040 --> 00:13:27,760 Speaker 2: into a completely foreign world. 211 00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:32,959 Speaker 1: I did feel really lost. It was scary. It was 212 00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:38,840 Speaker 1: obviously brilliant because I never thought i'd get away. The 213 00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:44,040 Speaker 1: freedom was incredible. At the same time, I hadn't been 214 00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:47,160 Speaker 1: given any life skills by my parents. 215 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:52,080 Speaker 2: Helen didn't have the same street smarts or life experiences 216 00:13:52,120 --> 00:13:55,240 Speaker 2: as her peers, but she certainly knew how to take 217 00:13:55,280 --> 00:13:59,040 Speaker 2: care of herself. She'd been doing it since she was seven. 218 00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:03,640 Speaker 1: So it was a really steep learning curve. I have 219 00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:06,000 Speaker 1: the skills to do it, and I had the confidence 220 00:14:06,040 --> 00:14:08,480 Speaker 1: that I'd been doing this forever and that I could 221 00:14:08,520 --> 00:14:09,120 Speaker 1: do it again. 222 00:14:09,920 --> 00:14:13,480 Speaker 2: Sure enough, Helen found her stride at college, and during 223 00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:16,280 Speaker 2: her first year there, she met a boy named Peter. 224 00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:20,800 Speaker 1: I met Peter three friends. We used to meet up 225 00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:24,640 Speaker 1: with another guy and another girl and just hang out. 226 00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:28,000 Speaker 1: Peter would walk me home and we got chatting, and 227 00:14:28,040 --> 00:14:31,480 Speaker 1: I found out that his dad had also had heart problems, 228 00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:35,280 Speaker 1: and he just understood the situation that I was in 229 00:14:35,280 --> 00:14:38,200 Speaker 1: in a way that no one else understood. 230 00:14:39,640 --> 00:14:42,680 Speaker 2: Helen and Peter began to spend more and more time together. 231 00:14:43,040 --> 00:14:45,360 Speaker 2: The connection between them was instant. 232 00:14:45,640 --> 00:14:49,720 Speaker 1: We got together and we got engaged after six months, 233 00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:53,640 Speaker 1: we got married twelve months later. It was all very whirlwind, 234 00:14:54,320 --> 00:14:56,840 Speaker 1: but at twenty one, you feel like a proper grown up, 235 00:14:57,040 --> 00:14:59,040 Speaker 1: so that's. 236 00:14:58,840 --> 00:15:02,680 Speaker 2: What you do. But Eleanor was not welcoming to Peter. 237 00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:06,880 Speaker 1: She was very mocking about my relationship, like, are you 238 00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:08,000 Speaker 1: going to call your lover? 239 00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:09,480 Speaker 2: Do you love him? 240 00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:14,400 Speaker 1: Helen? Are you in love with him? There was no safeguarding. 241 00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:17,360 Speaker 1: There was no sort of like, well hold on, let 242 00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:19,600 Speaker 1: me check this person out and see what I think 243 00:15:19,640 --> 00:15:21,440 Speaker 1: of them if you're going to marry them, and like 244 00:15:21,480 --> 00:15:23,800 Speaker 1: you're going to marry them six months after you started 245 00:15:23,880 --> 00:15:28,120 Speaker 1: dating them, Like that's actually ridiculous, you're twenty. My parents 246 00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:30,160 Speaker 1: didn't do any of that. They were just like, oh great, 247 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:32,600 Speaker 1: let's arrange the wedding. 248 00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:38,840 Speaker 2: At first, Helen struggled to accept that Peter actually wanted 249 00:15:38,840 --> 00:15:39,480 Speaker 2: to be with her. 250 00:15:40,360 --> 00:15:43,720 Speaker 1: I spent a long time thinking that I'd put on 251 00:15:43,760 --> 00:15:47,480 Speaker 1: a mask when he met me, and that I tricked 252 00:15:47,560 --> 00:15:48,520 Speaker 1: him into marrying me. 253 00:15:50,400 --> 00:15:54,600 Speaker 2: Shortly after Helen and Peter got married, Helen's dad collapsed 254 00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:56,840 Speaker 2: and had to be rushed to the hospital. 255 00:15:57,560 --> 00:16:00,840 Speaker 1: His health declined significantly after that, so then he was 256 00:16:00,880 --> 00:16:05,880 Speaker 1: on oxygen. The last two years of his life were 257 00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:11,080 Speaker 1: a nightmare. He was just having heart attacks all the time. 258 00:16:11,840 --> 00:16:15,040 Speaker 1: It would be like four am phone calls saying this 259 00:16:15,240 --> 00:16:19,080 Speaker 1: is it, You've got to come. And I remember jumping 260 00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:22,160 Speaker 1: in the car with my husband and rushing thinking are 261 00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:24,160 Speaker 1: we going to make it? Are we going to make it? 262 00:16:27,160 --> 00:16:29,920 Speaker 2: Her whole life, Helen had been afraid that her dad 263 00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:33,400 Speaker 2: could die at any minute, but during those two years, 264 00:16:33,640 --> 00:16:36,800 Speaker 2: the constant ham of worry grew into a fever pitch. 265 00:16:37,720 --> 00:16:41,200 Speaker 1: I went into a real period of depression, really really 266 00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:45,360 Speaker 1: struggled dealing with that situation. Me and my husband had 267 00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:49,040 Speaker 1: visited one weekend. We got the phone call, then went 268 00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:52,760 Speaker 1: straight upstairs to where he was in the ward. The 269 00:16:52,880 --> 00:16:56,200 Speaker 1: nest said, I'm really sorry, but he's passed away, and 270 00:16:56,560 --> 00:17:00,000 Speaker 1: my mum just collapsed to the floor and I don't 271 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:03,440 Speaker 1: I remember crying initially because it was all about looking 272 00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:06,600 Speaker 1: after my mom and caring for her and making sure 273 00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:10,719 Speaker 1: she was okay. I remember holding his hand and he 274 00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:16,080 Speaker 1: was still warm. His eyes were open, and I was like, 275 00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:19,440 Speaker 1: this is weird. His eyes are open. And my mom 276 00:17:19,480 --> 00:17:21,080 Speaker 1: was so snappy with me and was like, well just 277 00:17:21,119 --> 00:17:24,359 Speaker 1: close them then, and I got really upset. It just 278 00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:28,880 Speaker 1: sort of finally hit me and I said, I don't 279 00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:32,560 Speaker 1: want to leave without him, and my mom said, well, 280 00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:35,160 Speaker 1: this is it, isn't it, Helen, he's dead. Of course 281 00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:37,080 Speaker 1: he's not going to come with us. 282 00:17:38,880 --> 00:17:41,399 Speaker 2: Eleanor had no room for her daughter's grief. 283 00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:47,359 Speaker 1: This was her moment, and it wasn't about me. After 284 00:17:47,480 --> 00:17:50,639 Speaker 1: his death, she used to say to me, it was 285 00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:55,520 Speaker 1: just your dad, but it was my husband. So every 286 00:17:55,600 --> 00:17:59,720 Speaker 1: single occasion that could possibly bring up those feelings for her, 287 00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:03,600 Speaker 1: I would send her flowers, I would call I would 288 00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:07,640 Speaker 1: really make a big deal of it. And for years, 289 00:18:08,320 --> 00:18:11,760 Speaker 1: years and years, she didn't even acknowledge that Father's Day 290 00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:13,159 Speaker 1: might be a bit difficult for me. 291 00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:19,080 Speaker 2: As the years went on, Helen remained her mom's caretaker. 292 00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:22,439 Speaker 1: Because she was my mom, and because I was an 293 00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:24,639 Speaker 1: only child, it wasn't like I could just say, right, 294 00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:31,119 Speaker 1: I'm married now Celia. I couldn't let her go. I 295 00:18:31,119 --> 00:18:34,600 Speaker 1: felt very very responsible for her. We would have her 296 00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:39,879 Speaker 1: to our house every Christmas and it would be really strained. 297 00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:44,800 Speaker 1: I hated Christmas because Peter really really struggled with my 298 00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:50,480 Speaker 1: mum's behavior. My mum would be attention seeking and difficult, 299 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:54,600 Speaker 1: and I felt like I just had to keep the peace. 300 00:18:56,920 --> 00:18:59,520 Speaker 2: Helen and Peter had been trying for a baby and 301 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:05,399 Speaker 2: a difficult miscarriage. Finally Helen became pregnant, but the pregnancy 302 00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:06,879 Speaker 2: was quickly overshadowed. 303 00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:11,160 Speaker 1: At exactly the same time, my mum got a diagnosis 304 00:19:11,280 --> 00:19:19,119 Speaker 1: of Parkinson's disease. The consultant called it mild parkinson Ism. 305 00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:23,600 Speaker 2: Despite the early diagnosis, her mom's health was declining quickly. 306 00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:27,840 Speaker 1: She was getting worse and worse, so she was getting 307 00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:32,640 Speaker 1: more medication. She was going to these Parkinson's support groups. 308 00:19:33,119 --> 00:19:35,520 Speaker 1: She wasn't interested in how my pregnancy was going. She 309 00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:39,720 Speaker 1: wasn't interested in what scans I'd had, She wasn't interested 310 00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:43,000 Speaker 1: in me thinking about baby names. She just wanted to 311 00:19:43,080 --> 00:19:44,720 Speaker 1: talk about Parkinson's disease. 312 00:19:46,440 --> 00:19:50,840 Speaker 2: Soon Eleanor required constant care and moved into a nursing home. 313 00:19:51,280 --> 00:19:56,000 Speaker 1: She started having fools and it was happening so frequently 314 00:19:56,640 --> 00:19:59,600 Speaker 1: that the paramedics were actually told on her notes not 315 00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:00,840 Speaker 1: to take to a hospital. 316 00:20:02,720 --> 00:20:05,199 Speaker 2: Helen tried to be there for her mom. It was 317 00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:08,480 Speaker 2: hard to see her struggling in this way. She visited 318 00:20:08,480 --> 00:20:11,560 Speaker 2: the nursing home often, and one day they had plans 319 00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:14,359 Speaker 2: to go shopping in town together, so Helen went to 320 00:20:14,359 --> 00:20:17,240 Speaker 2: go pick her mom up. When she got there, her 321 00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:20,280 Speaker 2: mom was sitting on the couch and then she sort. 322 00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:28,880 Speaker 1: Of pretended to fall. It was very slow motion, and 323 00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:32,600 Speaker 1: when she got to the floor, she said, oh, my goodness, 324 00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:34,520 Speaker 1: did you see that? I just fell off the sofa. 325 00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:41,000 Speaker 1: And I was like, not really, and she said I 326 00:20:41,040 --> 00:20:42,800 Speaker 1: need to go to bed. And I was like, okay, 327 00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:45,720 Speaker 1: come on then, you know, i'll help you up. I'll 328 00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:49,119 Speaker 1: put you to bed. And she said I can't walk, 329 00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:51,920 Speaker 1: You'll have to carry me. And I said, well, i'll 330 00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:56,159 Speaker 1: help you, but like I can't carry you, you know, 331 00:20:56,240 --> 00:21:02,440 Speaker 1: come on, get up, and she sort of turned demonic. 332 00:21:04,320 --> 00:21:09,560 Speaker 1: She was sort of crawling along the floor and saying, fine, oh, 333 00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:12,800 Speaker 1: cruel there, then, is this what you want? Is this 334 00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:14,800 Speaker 1: what you want from me? Lift a bitch? 335 00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:22,400 Speaker 2: Her mom had never used a word like that before. 336 00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:24,080 Speaker 2: And it shook Helen. 337 00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:28,600 Speaker 1: It was kind of terrifying, so I ended up hiding 338 00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:32,160 Speaker 1: in the kitchen, thinking what am I going to do. 339 00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:38,640 Speaker 1: I tried calling Peter and he was like, just leave, 340 00:21:39,720 --> 00:21:41,280 Speaker 1: but I didn't feel like I could leave. 341 00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:46,719 Speaker 2: After that, Helen stopped visiting her husband. Peter supported her 342 00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:48,720 Speaker 2: decision to pull back from her mother. 343 00:21:49,359 --> 00:21:52,000 Speaker 1: We were having to kind of back off her more 344 00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:55,280 Speaker 1: and more and we would just be like, Okay, she 345 00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:56,960 Speaker 1: can't be around the children anymore. 346 00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:02,840 Speaker 2: Eleanor's health was declining rapidly. Doctors were constantly scrambling to 347 00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:04,240 Speaker 2: help her and find answers. 348 00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:08,879 Speaker 1: She bound her hands up into fists so that she 349 00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:15,240 Speaker 1: couldn't unclench them. She wasn't eating, she was just getting 350 00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:20,359 Speaker 1: worse and worse. She was referred to a hospital where 351 00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:23,120 Speaker 1: they did every test end of the sum They literally 352 00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:28,680 Speaker 1: tested her for everything, and eventually they said that they 353 00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:31,840 Speaker 1: had found nothing physically or mentally wrong with my mum, 354 00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:39,080 Speaker 1: but she would die in the next few months. By 355 00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:42,880 Speaker 1: that point, I'd spent three four years banging my head 356 00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:45,119 Speaker 1: on a brick wall trying to get someone to listen 357 00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:49,000 Speaker 1: to me, to say this isn't right, something's wrong, and 358 00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:51,720 Speaker 1: I need you to find out what's going on, and 359 00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:54,600 Speaker 1: they basically said to me, we've tested her for everything 360 00:22:54,760 --> 00:22:55,880 Speaker 1: and we can't help. 361 00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:00,200 Speaker 2: Doctors had run out of ways to help her mom, 362 00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:01,399 Speaker 2: and Helen had to. 363 00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:04,919 Speaker 1: I tried to stay in contact with her, but she 364 00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:09,639 Speaker 1: didn't really want it. Obviously. There was a massive decision 365 00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:12,320 Speaker 1: not to go and see her in her final months. 366 00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:17,320 Speaker 1: I decided it was better this way. I mean, that's 367 00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:21,399 Speaker 1: a horrible decision to make and not something I took lightly, 368 00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:24,840 Speaker 1: but actually having contact with her was more damaging. 369 00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:29,080 Speaker 2: It was painful for Helen not to visit. She still 370 00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:33,080 Speaker 2: loved her mom very much. She got occasional updates from 371 00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:36,679 Speaker 2: the medical team. One day, the call was different. 372 00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:42,640 Speaker 1: I'd had this phone call a few days earlier saying 373 00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:46,480 Speaker 1: your mom's got a mouth infection. I was like, okay, 374 00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:49,800 Speaker 1: so will you let me know how that goes then, 375 00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:52,280 Speaker 1: and like call me back in a few days, and 376 00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:55,880 Speaker 1: they were like, well, yeah, it might not be that long. 377 00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:00,680 Speaker 1: A few days later they rang me and they said, 378 00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:01,720 Speaker 1: your mom's died. 379 00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:09,959 Speaker 2: For a moment, everything stood still. Helen's mom had been 380 00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:13,719 Speaker 2: the center of her attention for her entire life. Her 381 00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:17,040 Speaker 2: mom's sickness had been the guiding force in every decision 382 00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:22,080 Speaker 2: she made. And now it was all over, with her gone, 383 00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:26,760 Speaker 2: everything was all mixed up. Nothing made sense, not even 384 00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:27,719 Speaker 2: her own grief. 385 00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:33,399 Speaker 1: It was a shock. It was a real shock because 386 00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:37,320 Speaker 1: we were estranged. I think quite a few people thought 387 00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:42,880 Speaker 1: I wouldn't grief, or perhaps I wouldn't feel sad about it. 388 00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:46,359 Speaker 1: It's just such a complex grief. It isn't straightforward, it 389 00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:51,680 Speaker 1: isn't normal. It was worse than my dad. My dad, 390 00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:56,000 Speaker 1: I was sad, but it was really straightforward. I missed him, 391 00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:59,119 Speaker 1: and I was sad that he was gone, whereas this 392 00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:00,720 Speaker 1: was so much more or complex. 393 00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:06,040 Speaker 2: Ever since she was a little girl, Helen used her 394 00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:08,479 Speaker 2: writing as a tool to make sense of her messy 395 00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:09,679 Speaker 2: and confusing world. 396 00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:13,120 Speaker 1: That's a way of me making sense of things and 397 00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:17,160 Speaker 1: getting things straight in my head. So it was kind 398 00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:21,000 Speaker 1: of a natural reaction for me to write about what 399 00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:21,680 Speaker 1: had happened. 400 00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:25,240 Speaker 2: Helen began writing a book about her life with her mom, 401 00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:28,560 Speaker 2: and as a part of her writing process, she decided 402 00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:30,040 Speaker 2: to read her mom's diaries. 403 00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:34,320 Speaker 1: I knew that my mom had written daily diaries. I'd 404 00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:36,719 Speaker 1: seen her writing them when I was a teenager, so 405 00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:38,960 Speaker 1: she'd written it from when she was twelve till the 406 00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:42,000 Speaker 1: year before she died, and she was on it. She 407 00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:44,760 Speaker 1: really didn't miss a day, and so I decided that 408 00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:47,760 Speaker 1: I needed to read them as part of writing this. 409 00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:52,000 Speaker 2: This wasn't one or two diaries. Her mom had made 410 00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:55,800 Speaker 2: daily entries for fifty five years. 411 00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:59,840 Speaker 1: So obviously that is a huge amount to read. It 412 00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:02,159 Speaker 1: took a while. It took me probably at least a 413 00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:04,199 Speaker 1: year to read them, and I did have to have 414 00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:07,440 Speaker 1: breaks because it was quite a lot. 415 00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:11,240 Speaker 2: At first glance, these entries were boring. 416 00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:16,640 Speaker 1: She just writes about the basics, the weather, where's she being, 417 00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:19,840 Speaker 1: what she done. There's no real feelings. A few read 418 00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:22,639 Speaker 1: my diaries from when I was a teenager. Gosh, the 419 00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:25,480 Speaker 1: teenage ants that would seep out of those pages, and 420 00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:30,879 Speaker 1: yet there's nothing like that in my mom's diaries. She 421 00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:37,080 Speaker 1: doesn't fancy anyone, she doesn't have any friendship problems, there's 422 00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:39,199 Speaker 1: no feelings. 423 00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:43,280 Speaker 2: Reading the diaries became part of Helen's daily routine. She 424 00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:46,320 Speaker 2: was slowly reading her way through her mom's life from 425 00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:48,639 Speaker 2: when she was twelve years old onwards. 426 00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:51,800 Speaker 1: I read it like i'd read a novel or something. 427 00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:55,080 Speaker 1: I just always had one with me. They were tiny 428 00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:57,760 Speaker 1: so I could just keep them in my handbag, and 429 00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:00,720 Speaker 1: whenever I had five minutes, I just read it few pages. 430 00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:04,800 Speaker 2: Over the years, Helen had heard her mom tell the 431 00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:08,080 Speaker 2: story of her life many times. She knew it well. 432 00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:11,760 Speaker 1: What I expected to find was exactly what she'd told me. 433 00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:17,760 Speaker 1: She'd had a really hard childhood with a really difficult 434 00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:23,440 Speaker 1: sister and difficult parents, and then she'd had a really 435 00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:28,280 Speaker 1: successful time at work, met my dad decided to have me, 436 00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:32,480 Speaker 1: and then from that point she'd got ill. And that 437 00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:33,680 Speaker 1: was just completely wrong. 438 00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:38,040 Speaker 2: Helen started reading passages in her mom's diary that diverged 439 00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:42,560 Speaker 2: from the story she'd been told. Then Helen saw the 440 00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:44,880 Speaker 2: line that stopped her in her tracks. 441 00:27:45,400 --> 00:28:00,480 Speaker 1: She writes, I have found my illness. 442 00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:11,320 Speaker 2: After her mother died, Helen decided to write a book 443 00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:13,280 Speaker 2: about what it was like growing up with her as 444 00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:16,840 Speaker 2: a parent. As part of her writing process, she read 445 00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:19,600 Speaker 2: through the daily diaries her mom had kept for over 446 00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:24,320 Speaker 2: fifty years. That's when Helen saw the line that changed everything. 447 00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:28,639 Speaker 1: She writes, I have found my illness. 448 00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:32,159 Speaker 2: Helen read and reread the words to make sure she 449 00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:36,000 Speaker 2: wasn't imagining it, but there it was in her mom's handwriting. 450 00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:40,320 Speaker 2: For the first time she learned the real story of 451 00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:45,920 Speaker 2: how her mom got diagnosed with EMMY. 452 00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:49,840 Speaker 1: She goes on to nag the doctor to diagnose her, 453 00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:55,920 Speaker 1: and then verylically, she's into getting the sick, getting mobility scooters. 454 00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:01,120 Speaker 2: The picture came into focus. Her mom had handpicked her 455 00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:05,880 Speaker 2: illness and then spent years performing it. The diaries revealed 456 00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:09,600 Speaker 2: an elaborate deception, the tale of a double life that 457 00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:13,680 Speaker 2: her mother lived, one where she was perfectly healthy. 458 00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:19,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, one part, she's recording how ill she is every day, 459 00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:22,680 Speaker 1: and yet it doesn't actually match up to what she's doing. 460 00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:25,400 Speaker 1: So she'll say, this was a really bad day, and 461 00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:30,080 Speaker 1: yet she's been apple picking, or you know, this was 462 00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:32,840 Speaker 1: a really terrible day. I went shopping all day. 463 00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:36,440 Speaker 2: It was possible for Helen's bomb to fake having m 464 00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:39,880 Speaker 2: E because there was no definitive way to test for it. 465 00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:43,880 Speaker 2: Diagnoses were primarily based on a patient's own account of 466 00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:47,560 Speaker 2: their symptoms, and most of the time people don't lie 467 00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:52,160 Speaker 2: to doctors. Most people don't choose to be bedridden. 468 00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:54,800 Speaker 1: At the time. It was almost like, you don't have 469 00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:56,560 Speaker 1: anything else, so it must be this. 470 00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:02,200 Speaker 2: For her whole childhood, Helen was consumed with worry, watching 471 00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:05,520 Speaker 2: her mom lay in bed in chronic pain. When Helen 472 00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:08,960 Speaker 2: went after school. She was constantly concerned about how her 473 00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:12,320 Speaker 2: mom would take care of herself. But the diary told 474 00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:13,600 Speaker 2: a very different story. 475 00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:17,520 Speaker 1: The thing she said to me and to other people 476 00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:19,880 Speaker 1: about how she needed to rest and plan and do 477 00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:23,400 Speaker 1: all that, that's just out the window. None of it 478 00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:28,040 Speaker 1: was true. She was going apple picking, and she was 479 00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:30,160 Speaker 1: going on city trips and going shopping. 480 00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:34,240 Speaker 2: That really hurt. 481 00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:40,200 Speaker 1: My whole childhood was shaped by the emmy what she 482 00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:46,440 Speaker 1: couldn't do, and it wasn't true. She could have just 483 00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:50,560 Speaker 1: been a totally normal mum. 484 00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:54,400 Speaker 2: Helen couldn't believe what she was reading. She felt sick. 485 00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:58,160 Speaker 1: I was unraveling what had happened and what had happened 486 00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:03,120 Speaker 1: to me, My story of how I am the child 487 00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:07,200 Speaker 1: of two disabled parents and have cared for them. That's 488 00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:09,400 Speaker 1: actually a lie. 489 00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:12,560 Speaker 2: We could have been living a normal life for years. 490 00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:16,120 Speaker 2: Helen's mom lived a lie. But it didn't make sense 491 00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:19,320 Speaker 2: to Helen. Why would her mom choose this? 492 00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:24,320 Speaker 1: She had money, she had health, she had friends, She 493 00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:28,000 Speaker 1: could have had a really good life, and yet she 494 00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:31,400 Speaker 1: chose something so destructive. 495 00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:35,680 Speaker 2: Helen scoured her mom's diaries trying to find an answer. 496 00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:40,360 Speaker 1: It was like she was totally unveiling herself. Her mask 497 00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:45,080 Speaker 1: sort of slips, and she writes about how everyone is special, 498 00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:50,760 Speaker 1: but I'm really special, and just goes into this rant 499 00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:53,880 Speaker 1: about how special she is and how no one has 500 00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:55,880 Speaker 1: appreciated how special she is. 501 00:31:56,720 --> 00:32:00,360 Speaker 2: Helen started to get an understanding of her mom's inner world. 502 00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:06,520 Speaker 1: She had been a narcissist from birth. There's always a 503 00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:10,480 Speaker 1: huge vanity. So she talks about how beautiful she is 504 00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:15,520 Speaker 1: and how long her legs are, how slender her hands are, 505 00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:19,160 Speaker 1: in a way I can't even imagine writing about myself. 506 00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:23,440 Speaker 2: Helen's mom had always told her that she'd gotten sick 507 00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:26,840 Speaker 2: after giving birth to her, that before that she had 508 00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:30,280 Speaker 2: lived a happy, healthy life, But her diaries told a 509 00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:33,800 Speaker 2: different story. As Helen read, it was like she was 510 00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:37,920 Speaker 2: being reintroduced to her own mother. Eleanor's pattern of fake 511 00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:40,719 Speaker 2: illnesses had started when she was a child. 512 00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:44,400 Speaker 1: What was really striking for me was that from the 513 00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:48,360 Speaker 1: beginning she was obsessed with illness. In her twenties and 514 00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:51,520 Speaker 1: we're talking about early twenties, she's constantly going to the 515 00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:57,880 Speaker 1: doctor for things breast scams, brain scams. Has she broken this? 516 00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:01,240 Speaker 1: Has she done this, you know everything, She's been constantly 517 00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:04,320 Speaker 1: checked for, and she doesn't just take what the doctor says. 518 00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:06,920 Speaker 1: She needs to go to the consultant and has the 519 00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:14,160 Speaker 1: highest opinion on things. I really didn't expect the obsession 520 00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:16,640 Speaker 1: to be so early. 521 00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:19,840 Speaker 2: Eleanor's view of her own life was at best self 522 00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:24,520 Speaker 2: centered and at worst delusional. Her entries paint a picture 523 00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:27,840 Speaker 2: of a world where she is in complete control. Like 524 00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:30,000 Speaker 2: when she wrote about getting pregnant with Helen. 525 00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:34,280 Speaker 1: Nothing about wanting a baby, nothing about thinking about a 526 00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:36,719 Speaker 1: family is one day, she just writes in her diary, 527 00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:43,600 Speaker 1: decided I was pregnant. So she's some sort of omnipotent god. 528 00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:45,520 Speaker 1: She's created a pregnancy. 529 00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:49,960 Speaker 2: As she read on, Helen came across something else that 530 00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:54,920 Speaker 2: was incredibly disturbing. Events from her own childhood that she 531 00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:58,720 Speaker 2: had no memory of. Her mom had abused her growing up, 532 00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:01,560 Speaker 2: and she died mented it in her diaries. 533 00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:05,080 Speaker 1: She drugged me. I was six months old, and she 534 00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:09,520 Speaker 1: feeds me Chinese food washed down with whiskey. When I 535 00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:12,919 Speaker 1: was a week old, she went shopping and just left 536 00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:18,200 Speaker 1: me at home. It's neglect, but it's also abuse, And 537 00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:22,560 Speaker 1: I really didn't expect to find that what was really 538 00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:26,000 Speaker 1: hard about reading. It was that there'd be months of 539 00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:29,040 Speaker 1: her talking about the weather or going to the supermarket, 540 00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:33,239 Speaker 1: and then suddenly there would be she's drugged me, or 541 00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:40,640 Speaker 1: she's in some way injured me. It's just so emotionless. 542 00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:45,880 Speaker 1: She's so cool. She doesn't try to hide anything which 543 00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:48,840 Speaker 1: is interesting or make excuses for anything. 544 00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:53,080 Speaker 2: One of Helen's earliest memories was falling off a chair 545 00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:56,279 Speaker 2: and breaking her arm, but as she read through her 546 00:34:56,280 --> 00:34:59,400 Speaker 2: mom's diaries, she learned that didn't happen the way she 547 00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:02,920 Speaker 2: remembered it. Her mom talks about having broken Helen's arm 548 00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:06,360 Speaker 2: herself when Helen was only two. 549 00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:11,160 Speaker 1: According to the diaries, she did it. I definitely broke 550 00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:15,360 Speaker 1: my arm. My mom probably caused it, and I don't 551 00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:15,799 Speaker 1: know how. 552 00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:21,080 Speaker 2: Helen learned that social services got involved and somehow her 553 00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:25,399 Speaker 2: mom explained the injury away. 554 00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:29,479 Speaker 1: Reading that when I had small children and I've got 555 00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:32,520 Speaker 1: a very recently two year old, I can see how 556 00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:35,480 Speaker 1: small her arm is, and I can see how easy 557 00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:36,480 Speaker 1: that would be to break. 558 00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:41,040 Speaker 2: As an adult, Helen's mind turned to her father. He 559 00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:43,880 Speaker 2: had been there and witnessed a lot of the abuse, 560 00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:48,120 Speaker 2: so in many ways he was complicit, but it seems 561 00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:50,879 Speaker 2: like Eleanor had a lot of power over him too. 562 00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:57,160 Speaker 1: I can make excuses for him. I can say that 563 00:35:57,280 --> 00:36:01,879 Speaker 1: he was a man of a differents who relied on 564 00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:05,319 Speaker 1: the fact that his wife was the mother and that 565 00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:09,400 Speaker 1: she would know everything and do the right thing. I 566 00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:14,480 Speaker 1: can say that he was isolated, and that I suspect 567 00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:16,839 Speaker 1: she said she'd leave him and take me with her. 568 00:36:18,239 --> 00:36:22,560 Speaker 1: Does that excuse it all? No? Do I think he 569 00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:27,120 Speaker 1: had a really awful life. Yeah, So it's just like 570 00:36:27,239 --> 00:36:29,480 Speaker 1: holding all of those things at the same time. 571 00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:34,120 Speaker 2: Growing up, Helen had carried immense guilt for ruining her 572 00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:37,720 Speaker 2: mom's life. She knew her mom had gotten sick after 573 00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:41,080 Speaker 2: she was born. She felt like everything was her fault. 574 00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:45,600 Speaker 2: But now Helen revised the story of her life. Her 575 00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:48,600 Speaker 2: mom had gone down a dark path long before she 576 00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:51,879 Speaker 2: was born, and none of it was her fault. 577 00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:55,600 Speaker 1: It was really like, oh gosh, this hasn't been the 578 00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:59,200 Speaker 1: story that I thought it was going to be. I 579 00:36:59,239 --> 00:37:02,640 Speaker 1: really believe I'd ruined her life, that she'd had me 580 00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:06,840 Speaker 1: and I had breaken everything, that if I haven't existed, 581 00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:13,680 Speaker 1: she would have had a happy life. And that's not 582 00:37:13,719 --> 00:37:17,560 Speaker 1: what I read at all. This was always going to happen. 583 00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:19,200 Speaker 1: It didn't matter whether I was there or not. 584 00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:27,319 Speaker 2: Every neatly penciled, diligently dated diary entry was like a 585 00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:31,440 Speaker 2: puzzle piece. At first, it was a scrambled and confusing mess, 586 00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:36,000 Speaker 2: but slowly pieces started to click into place. Helen saw 587 00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:40,920 Speaker 2: that everything, the narcissism, the faked illness, was all connected. 588 00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:45,600 Speaker 2: Her mom was not sick with EMMY or Parkinson's. She 589 00:37:45,719 --> 00:37:50,320 Speaker 2: was mentally ill with a condition called Munchausen syndrome. People 590 00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:54,120 Speaker 2: with Munchausen's fake or exaggerate medical conditions as a means 591 00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:56,520 Speaker 2: of gaining control, sympathy, or power. 592 00:37:57,440 --> 00:38:00,400 Speaker 1: What I realized was that for women with not statistic 593 00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:06,680 Speaker 1: personality disorder, it often doesn't look like masculine narcissism. It 594 00:38:06,719 --> 00:38:12,120 Speaker 1: often looks like victimhood. It's about getting attention and about 595 00:38:12,200 --> 00:38:17,799 Speaker 1: being the poor little woman. Munchasen's is kind of perfect 596 00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:21,520 Speaker 1: for that, because who questions an ill person and says, 597 00:38:21,560 --> 00:38:24,200 Speaker 1: I think you're making it up? Who would do that? 598 00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:28,400 Speaker 1: Without the diaries, I think I would still be in 599 00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:31,759 Speaker 1: the dark. I don't think I would have properly been 600 00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:36,839 Speaker 1: able to pull the pieces together. There's lots of events 601 00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:39,879 Speaker 1: that I see differently now. 602 00:38:40,680 --> 00:38:44,320 Speaker 2: Like the trip to America, where her parents seemed miraculously cured. 603 00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:47,640 Speaker 2: Her mom could choose when she felt well based on 604 00:38:47,719 --> 00:38:51,080 Speaker 2: what was convenient for her, and her dad hadn't actually 605 00:38:51,160 --> 00:38:54,440 Speaker 2: been doing as well as her mom told her. 606 00:38:55,040 --> 00:38:59,280 Speaker 1: My mum said to me, Dad is better in the heat, 607 00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:03,560 Speaker 1: and yeah, at the same time, I remember him gasping 608 00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:08,200 Speaker 1: for air because it was so hot and he couldn't breathe. 609 00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:13,480 Speaker 1: And I didn't realize that those two things were opposites 610 00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:16,160 Speaker 1: until I wrote my book and my agent said to 611 00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:20,439 Speaker 1: me which one was it? And I was like, oh, 612 00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:26,280 Speaker 1: my goodness, I've held this for thirty years and never 613 00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:30,840 Speaker 1: put it together. My dad wasn't better there, but she 614 00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:34,560 Speaker 1: told me that he was, so I believed her. It 615 00:39:34,600 --> 00:39:38,840 Speaker 1: seems incredible. I don't think you can underestimate the power 616 00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:44,720 Speaker 1: that a parent has over a child. I was talking 617 00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:48,799 Speaker 1: to my daughter about a cushion downstairs once and I 618 00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:50,799 Speaker 1: said to her, the gray one, you know, the gray one. 619 00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:53,200 Speaker 1: She was like, in the blue one. I was like, no, 620 00:39:53,640 --> 00:39:56,880 Speaker 1: the gray one, the gray one. She was like, oh okay, 621 00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:00,719 Speaker 1: And she said she was trying to convince her that 622 00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:04,200 Speaker 1: this blue cushion was gray because I'd said that it 623 00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:07,319 Speaker 1: was gray, and when I got downstairs, I was like, oh, 624 00:40:07,360 --> 00:40:09,840 Speaker 1: it's not gray, it's blue. Sorry, I got that wrong. 625 00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:14,680 Speaker 1: But the power that we have as adults over children 626 00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:17,000 Speaker 1: to say that this is this that even when you're 627 00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:20,839 Speaker 1: looking at something, you're like, my mom must be right, 628 00:40:21,120 --> 00:40:25,720 Speaker 1: so I must be seeing this wrong. If you need 629 00:40:25,760 --> 00:40:29,000 Speaker 1: to accept the lie to live, then you accept the 630 00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:29,480 Speaker 1: lie right. 631 00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:34,759 Speaker 2: Slowly, Helen began writing the book about her mom. 632 00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:38,279 Speaker 1: It took me quite a few attempts to write it 633 00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:44,920 Speaker 1: because I didn't really know how to put it all together. 634 00:40:46,239 --> 00:40:49,360 Speaker 1: She wasn't a cartoon villain. 635 00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:53,560 Speaker 2: Helen pulled together all the strands of truth and fiction 636 00:40:53,920 --> 00:40:57,320 Speaker 2: that had shaped her world growing up, her mom's version 637 00:40:57,360 --> 00:41:01,360 Speaker 2: of events, her own memories, and the diary. She published 638 00:41:01,360 --> 00:41:04,840 Speaker 2: her book, which is titled My Mother Munchausen's and Me. 639 00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:09,280 Speaker 1: I thought I was going to be the only person 640 00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:12,480 Speaker 1: in the whole world who had been through this. That 641 00:41:12,600 --> 00:41:17,200 Speaker 1: turned out to be completely wrong. I have had probably 642 00:41:17,360 --> 00:41:20,600 Speaker 1: one hundred people contact me from all over the world. 643 00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:23,439 Speaker 1: Some people have told me that I've explained their life 644 00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:28,120 Speaker 1: to them, and you know, I've had people saying I'm 645 00:41:28,160 --> 00:41:31,640 Speaker 1: sixty and I've just realized what's happened. 646 00:41:32,840 --> 00:41:37,360 Speaker 2: Helen realized she had concrete answers that many people in 647 00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:39,400 Speaker 2: her situation never get. 648 00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:42,720 Speaker 1: I've got the diaries, and I've got so much proof 649 00:41:42,760 --> 00:41:45,040 Speaker 1: in a way that a lot of people don't. I 650 00:41:45,080 --> 00:41:48,719 Speaker 1: think I'm quite unusual in that a lot of people 651 00:41:48,800 --> 00:41:53,719 Speaker 1: who've been through something like this unsurprisingly go down some 652 00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:57,080 Speaker 1: really dark roads with their mental health and with ways 653 00:41:57,120 --> 00:42:01,959 Speaker 1: of coping with that. And for some reason I've got 654 00:42:02,040 --> 00:42:04,960 Speaker 1: through this and being able to write about it, which 655 00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:08,440 Speaker 1: is quite unusual. But it is amazing because I can 656 00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:13,000 Speaker 1: hopefully verbalize for people who can't say it, what's happened. 657 00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:17,400 Speaker 2: Helen will never be able to get those years of 658 00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:18,520 Speaker 2: her childhood back. 659 00:42:19,239 --> 00:42:24,040 Speaker 1: It's a huge betrayal. So much of my life was 660 00:42:24,160 --> 00:42:29,240 Speaker 1: sacrificed to what she needed, which was actually what she wanted. 661 00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:34,840 Speaker 1: So much of who I am had to be hidden. 662 00:42:35,760 --> 00:42:40,680 Speaker 1: It's taken me until the last five years to start 663 00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:44,719 Speaker 1: to get back to who I am, what do I like, 664 00:42:45,600 --> 00:42:49,200 Speaker 1: what do I want to do? Believing that my opinion 665 00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:53,680 Speaker 1: matters and that I matter enough to be looked after. 666 00:42:54,680 --> 00:42:57,760 Speaker 2: Helen says her relationship with her husband has been healing. 667 00:42:58,640 --> 00:43:04,239 Speaker 1: Luckily for me, I picked the right guy. He's a wonderful, faithful, 668 00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:13,080 Speaker 1: fabulous person, which is very jammy. It's taken me a 669 00:43:13,200 --> 00:43:17,120 Speaker 1: long time to believe that he loves me, because I 670 00:43:17,320 --> 00:43:20,520 Speaker 1: just didn't think I was lovable. It's taken me a 671 00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:25,640 Speaker 1: really long time to accept that he wasn't tricked, that 672 00:43:25,760 --> 00:43:29,040 Speaker 1: he did want this, and that we both make each 673 00:43:29,080 --> 00:43:32,000 Speaker 1: other much happier than we'd be without each other. 674 00:43:36,040 --> 00:43:39,520 Speaker 2: Eleanor went to extreme lengths to control and abuse her daughter, 675 00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:43,279 Speaker 2: to keep Helen's world small and make sure it would 676 00:43:43,320 --> 00:43:48,440 Speaker 2: always revolve around her, but she underestimated her daughter's resilience. 677 00:43:50,160 --> 00:43:53,920 Speaker 1: I do think in a way, my mum neglecting me 678 00:43:55,080 --> 00:43:57,440 Speaker 1: was a real doubtful because it meant I became so 679 00:43:57,560 --> 00:44:03,520 Speaker 1: self sufficient. It just absolutely defeated everything she wanted me 680 00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:07,239 Speaker 1: to be. I was supposed to fail it at a thing, 681 00:44:07,920 --> 00:44:10,600 Speaker 1: but I'd learned to look after myself. 682 00:44:11,760 --> 00:44:16,320 Speaker 2: Today, Helen has built the life she always dreamed of. She, Peter, 683 00:44:16,520 --> 00:44:19,920 Speaker 2: and their kids lived together in Nottingham, where Peter and 684 00:44:19,960 --> 00:44:22,840 Speaker 2: Helen met and fell in love. They go on weekend 685 00:44:22,840 --> 00:44:26,600 Speaker 2: trips with their kids, play the TV loudly, and treasure 686 00:44:26,680 --> 00:44:31,520 Speaker 2: every day they spent together. We end every weekly episode 687 00:44:31,600 --> 00:44:34,160 Speaker 2: with the same question, why do you want to share 688 00:44:34,200 --> 00:44:34,760 Speaker 2: your story? 689 00:44:35,239 --> 00:44:37,799 Speaker 1: A really big thing for me to say was that 690 00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:42,759 Speaker 1: mothers aren't necessarily good. There's this feeling that moms are 691 00:44:42,760 --> 00:44:46,839 Speaker 1: good no matter what. Mums are good even if they 692 00:44:46,840 --> 00:44:50,160 Speaker 1: do the wrong thing. It's because they love you so much. 693 00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:55,680 Speaker 1: I'd had so many people saying to me, this can't 694 00:44:55,840 --> 00:44:59,799 Speaker 1: be true, she's your mom, as if being a mum 695 00:44:59,840 --> 00:45:03,560 Speaker 1: and being a bad person don't go together, and I 696 00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:04,960 Speaker 1: really wanted to challenge that. 697 00:45:11,920 --> 00:45:16,239 Speaker 2: On the next episode of Betrayal Weekly, I came up 698 00:45:16,239 --> 00:45:19,120 Speaker 2: with my plan, which was I'm gonna buy a gun. 699 00:45:20,480 --> 00:45:21,440 Speaker 2: That's my way out. 700 00:45:21,640 --> 00:45:27,080 Speaker 3: Walking into this gun store thinking that I cannot believe 701 00:45:27,280 --> 00:45:30,520 Speaker 3: this is my life. I can't believe this is my life. 702 00:45:31,440 --> 00:45:34,680 Speaker 3: I was floored. I had never felt so helpless in 703 00:45:34,680 --> 00:45:38,440 Speaker 3: my life. 704 00:45:39,280 --> 00:45:41,120 Speaker 2: If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal 705 00:45:41,120 --> 00:45:44,040 Speaker 2: team or want to tell us your Betrayal story, email 706 00:45:44,120 --> 00:45:48,400 Speaker 2: us at Betrayalpod at gmail dot com. That's Betrayal Pod 707 00:45:48,719 --> 00:45:52,239 Speaker 2: at gmail dot com, or follow us on Instagram at 708 00:45:52,320 --> 00:45:56,480 Speaker 2: Betrayal Pod. You can also connect with me on Instagram 709 00:45:56,560 --> 00:46:00,600 Speaker 2: at It's Andrea Gunning. To access our newsletter, you additional 710 00:46:00,640 --> 00:46:04,400 Speaker 2: content and connect with the Betrayal community. Join our substack 711 00:46:04,440 --> 00:46:08,360 Speaker 2: at Betrayal dot substack dot com. We're grateful for your support. 712 00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:11,200 Speaker 2: One way to show support is by subscribing to our 713 00:46:11,200 --> 00:46:13,920 Speaker 2: show on Apple Podcasts and don't forget to rate and 714 00:46:13,920 --> 00:46:17,440 Speaker 2: review Betrayal. Five star reviews go a long way. A 715 00:46:17,440 --> 00:46:21,000 Speaker 2: big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is 716 00:46:21,040 --> 00:46:24,000 Speaker 2: a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment 717 00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:27,719 Speaker 2: Group and partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive 718 00:46:27,719 --> 00:46:31,360 Speaker 2: produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fason, hosted and produced 719 00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:35,360 Speaker 2: by me Andrea Gunning. This episode was written and produced 720 00:46:35,360 --> 00:46:39,080 Speaker 2: by Olivia Hewitt and Monique Leboord, with additional production from 721 00:46:39,080 --> 00:46:43,959 Speaker 2: Ben Fetterman. Casting support from Curry Richmond. Our iHeart team 722 00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:48,000 Speaker 2: is Ali Perry and Jessica Krincheck. Audio editing and mixing 723 00:46:48,040 --> 00:46:53,040 Speaker 2: by Matt Delvecchio. Additional audio editing by Tanner Robbins. Betrayal's 724 00:46:53,040 --> 00:46:58,040 Speaker 2: theme composed by Oliver Bain's music library provided by myb Music. 725 00:46:58,719 --> 00:47:01,839 Speaker 2: And For more podcasts from Heart, visit the iHeartRadio app, 726 00:47:01,880 --> 00:47:05,759 Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.