1 00:00:00,760 --> 00:00:03,480 Speaker 1: Turn on your Instagram right now? What is the imagery? 2 00:00:03,520 --> 00:00:06,280 Speaker 1: You are literally being fed, and I mean fed into 3 00:00:06,320 --> 00:00:10,520 Speaker 1: your body. All the circumstances that make an individual likely 4 00:00:10,640 --> 00:00:13,319 Speaker 1: to become addicted to drama, we are experiencing on a 5 00:00:13,440 --> 00:00:14,200 Speaker 1: mass level. 6 00:00:14,600 --> 00:00:18,240 Speaker 2: Doctor Stott Lyons is the clinical psychologist and body based 7 00:00:18,239 --> 00:00:22,320 Speaker 2: trauma expert behind Addicted to Drama, the groundbreaking book that 8 00:00:22,440 --> 00:00:25,480 Speaker 2: finally explained why so many of us can't stop creating 9 00:00:25,720 --> 00:00:28,040 Speaker 2: the very chaos we say we want to escape. 10 00:00:28,120 --> 00:00:30,200 Speaker 1: And then I would ask the hard question, who here 11 00:00:30,280 --> 00:00:33,360 Speaker 1: is addicted to drama? How is it that everyone knows someone, 12 00:00:33,440 --> 00:00:34,640 Speaker 1: but no one is that person. 13 00:00:35,840 --> 00:00:38,920 Speaker 2: But before he became the expert, he was the case study. 14 00:00:39,040 --> 00:00:42,240 Speaker 1: I was toxic, He was toxic. We were toxic, and 15 00:00:42,479 --> 00:00:45,559 Speaker 1: I needed those fights or some type of drama or 16 00:00:45,640 --> 00:00:47,879 Speaker 1: crisis to feel anything at all. 17 00:00:48,159 --> 00:00:50,279 Speaker 2: And he's brought along the person who's known him through 18 00:00:50,320 --> 00:00:52,760 Speaker 2: all of it is best friend of over twenty years, 19 00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:53,560 Speaker 2: Nicole Aslin. 20 00:00:53,840 --> 00:00:58,560 Speaker 3: You've talked about the difference between trauma bonding and drama bonding. 21 00:00:58,920 --> 00:01:03,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, laughing because I'm seeing Nicky smile. Probably the amount 22 00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:05,319 Speaker 1: of times I've tried to rope her in for my drama. 23 00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:06,679 Speaker 1: She could write her own book on. 24 00:01:06,720 --> 00:01:10,200 Speaker 2: The join hosts Martin Luther King the Third, Andrea Waters, King, 25 00:01:10,520 --> 00:01:13,800 Speaker 2: Mark Kilberger, and Craig Kilberger for a fearlessly honest and 26 00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:17,600 Speaker 2: often hilarious conversation about the chaos we can't quit and 27 00:01:17,680 --> 00:01:19,480 Speaker 2: what it takes to finally break free. 28 00:01:19,520 --> 00:01:22,120 Speaker 1: And I felt so much shame, you know, as I 29 00:01:22,160 --> 00:01:24,080 Speaker 1: was walking down the streets in New York City, and 30 00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:26,840 Speaker 1: I was like, FA, what if I'm on a runway 31 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:27,959 Speaker 1: and I walked to them. 32 00:01:33,040 --> 00:01:37,480 Speaker 2: Before today's episode begins, please be advised this conversation includes 33 00:01:37,480 --> 00:01:40,920 Speaker 2: discussions about suicide and mental health. Some of the content 34 00:01:40,959 --> 00:01:44,520 Speaker 2: may be distressing. If you or someone you know is struggling, 35 00:01:44,840 --> 00:01:48,880 Speaker 2: help is available. Call the National Suicide and Crisis Lifeline 36 00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:52,160 Speaker 2: at nine eight eight or text home to seven four 37 00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:54,840 Speaker 2: one seven four one to reach the crisis text line. 38 00:01:55,320 --> 00:01:58,080 Speaker 2: These services are free and available twenty four to seven. 39 00:01:59,440 --> 00:02:03,440 Speaker 4: Welcome to My Legacy. Our guest today is doctor Scott Lyons, 40 00:02:03,440 --> 00:02:07,800 Speaker 4: a clinical psychologist, educator, and body based trauma expert who 41 00:02:07,880 --> 00:02:11,080 Speaker 4: has helped people around the world break free from cycles 42 00:02:11,080 --> 00:02:16,760 Speaker 4: of pain and chaos. Scott, welcome. We're so honored to 43 00:02:16,880 --> 00:02:20,720 Speaker 4: have you with us today and as our audience knows. 44 00:02:20,760 --> 00:02:24,600 Speaker 4: On this podcast, our extraordinary guests are joined by someone 45 00:02:24,639 --> 00:02:28,280 Speaker 4: of their choosing who has played a meaningful role in 46 00:02:28,320 --> 00:02:31,480 Speaker 4: their life. Scott, would you do us the honor of 47 00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:33,680 Speaker 4: introducing your guests today? 48 00:02:33,760 --> 00:02:36,600 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, it's happy to and thank you so 49 00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:39,760 Speaker 1: much for having me on the show. This is my 50 00:02:39,919 --> 00:02:43,560 Speaker 1: dearest oldest friend, Nicole Asen or Nicky Asen or Nicki 51 00:02:43,639 --> 00:02:48,120 Speaker 1: Lou however you want to address her. And we have 52 00:02:48,200 --> 00:02:52,040 Speaker 1: been friends since high school. The moment we met, we 53 00:02:52,040 --> 00:02:55,120 Speaker 1: were siblings, we were best friends. And she is an 54 00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:59,320 Speaker 1: artist extraordinaire. She's an academic. She is one of the 55 00:02:59,320 --> 00:03:03,919 Speaker 1: funniest people I know, and one of the kindest human beings. 56 00:03:03,960 --> 00:03:08,280 Speaker 1: She is true Minnesota blood and in that sense of 57 00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:14,760 Speaker 1: just like sweet, sweet, loving human being. And yeah, I'm 58 00:03:14,800 --> 00:03:16,920 Speaker 1: so excited to do the show. It was the first 59 00:03:16,919 --> 00:03:20,600 Speaker 1: person I thought of immediately when I was asked to 60 00:03:20,639 --> 00:03:21,560 Speaker 1: bring in plus one. 61 00:03:22,720 --> 00:03:23,560 Speaker 5: How beautiful. 62 00:03:24,280 --> 00:03:27,800 Speaker 2: So Nicole, let's start with you. 63 00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:31,800 Speaker 4: So obviously there's that connection, But when you all first 64 00:03:31,840 --> 00:03:34,360 Speaker 4: met on that day in high school, how did you 65 00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:37,280 Speaker 4: know that Scott was going to be someone that would 66 00:03:37,320 --> 00:03:39,720 Speaker 4: have eternal placement in your life? 67 00:03:39,840 --> 00:03:43,480 Speaker 6: When I saw Scott. It was pretty much a vision, 68 00:03:43,840 --> 00:03:47,520 Speaker 6: and I think that's the only word that I could 69 00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:50,880 Speaker 6: use to describe. So I came. You know, we went 70 00:03:50,920 --> 00:03:52,480 Speaker 6: to a very special high school. It was an arts 71 00:03:52,480 --> 00:03:57,560 Speaker 6: based school, and we were both in the theater department. 72 00:03:57,960 --> 00:04:02,400 Speaker 6: And I had left my small town in Minnesota to 73 00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:05,320 Speaker 6: you know, to this, to go to the city, to 74 00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:09,000 Speaker 6: be in this very alternative environment. And I was so excited. 75 00:04:09,640 --> 00:04:12,000 Speaker 6: And my parents had just dropped me off at the 76 00:04:12,040 --> 00:04:16,120 Speaker 6: dorm and were like, Okay, see you later, good luck. 77 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:22,000 Speaker 6: And I turn around and there is Scott in it too. 78 00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:26,800 Speaker 2: Too, and the move tap with the whoop. 79 00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:34,440 Speaker 6: Saying hello, welcome to Double D Heaven, and our dorm 80 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:39,800 Speaker 6: was called Delta Dorm. And I just knew that I 81 00:04:39,920 --> 00:04:43,200 Speaker 6: was going to be okay because I was surrounded by 82 00:04:43,240 --> 00:04:45,080 Speaker 6: people like Scott. 83 00:04:46,440 --> 00:04:48,280 Speaker 1: I still have that too, too, just so we're clear. 84 00:04:50,480 --> 00:04:53,080 Speaker 5: I love that all these years later, the friendship remains 85 00:04:53,080 --> 00:04:55,240 Speaker 5: as strong as ever. And Nicole, I actually love that 86 00:04:55,279 --> 00:04:58,400 Speaker 5: you brought this to Scott's high school days because I 87 00:04:58,440 --> 00:05:02,200 Speaker 5: think so often we see incredibly successful individuals like Scott, 88 00:05:02,400 --> 00:05:05,360 Speaker 5: and we see them that today, you know, the doctor, 89 00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:10,360 Speaker 5: the host, the the extinem leader in the field, and Scott, 90 00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:12,120 Speaker 5: can we actually go back to your origin, because this 91 00:05:12,160 --> 00:05:13,839 Speaker 5: is what we do on the show. We go all 92 00:05:13,839 --> 00:05:15,920 Speaker 5: the way back, including to your high school days, because 93 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:19,360 Speaker 5: you've talked about how the teachers were calling you stupid 94 00:05:19,400 --> 00:05:21,880 Speaker 5: and other classmates and like shoving you into lockers, and 95 00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:24,680 Speaker 5: they're not mistaken. I think you had talked about I 96 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:27,719 Speaker 5: remember reading that that you were so desperate you faked 97 00:05:27,720 --> 00:05:30,400 Speaker 5: your own suicide not once, but multiple times. And so 98 00:05:30,520 --> 00:05:33,279 Speaker 5: can we actually go back like before the success that 99 00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:35,400 Speaker 5: you are now, can we actually go back to that time? Like, 100 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:37,680 Speaker 5: can you really take us back to that origin? And 101 00:05:37,680 --> 00:05:40,359 Speaker 5: what were you really crying out for at that time? 102 00:05:41,160 --> 00:05:43,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, the school that Nikki and I met at was 103 00:05:43,880 --> 00:05:46,080 Speaker 1: was not the school that where I was getting beat 104 00:05:46,160 --> 00:05:51,920 Speaker 1: up and okay sort of accosted by fact by teachers 105 00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:56,880 Speaker 1: as well. That was my freshman year and I wasn't 106 00:05:56,920 --> 00:05:59,640 Speaker 1: out as a gay man then, but it certainly was 107 00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:02,880 Speaker 1: getting quite a bit of flack for it. And I 108 00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:06,520 Speaker 1: had an IEP and Individual Education Plan for my learning disabilities, 109 00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:10,680 Speaker 1: and it supposedly hadn't transferred over to the high school, 110 00:06:11,200 --> 00:06:15,000 Speaker 1: so the teachers didn't know couldn't understand my unique way 111 00:06:15,080 --> 00:06:19,400 Speaker 1: of learning. And processing. Teachers were calling me stupid. They 112 00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:21,280 Speaker 1: were telling my parents I would be lucky if I 113 00:06:21,279 --> 00:06:25,240 Speaker 1: could even graduate high school. I was being shoved in 114 00:06:25,279 --> 00:06:31,240 Speaker 1: lockers and beat up and people weren't believing me. I 115 00:06:31,320 --> 00:06:33,400 Speaker 1: went to teachers to try to get help, and they 116 00:06:33,440 --> 00:06:36,280 Speaker 1: would just say they would give me advice as to 117 00:06:36,279 --> 00:06:40,680 Speaker 1: what I could do differently. And it was a hard 118 00:06:40,720 --> 00:06:42,760 Speaker 1: experience for my parents to believe that this could be 119 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:46,960 Speaker 1: happening to them, because I had a very fruitful experience 120 00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:51,359 Speaker 1: in junior high school and I just was so desperate. 121 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:55,720 Speaker 1: I was so desperate, and I didn't at the time 122 00:06:55,880 --> 00:06:59,400 Speaker 1: know what else to do besides kind of kind of 123 00:06:59,720 --> 00:07:04,000 Speaker 1: create a drama, a scene in which people could maybe 124 00:07:04,560 --> 00:07:08,240 Speaker 1: understand the pain that I was in to help me 125 00:07:08,279 --> 00:07:11,560 Speaker 1: make changes in my life that I was really desperately seeking. 126 00:07:12,760 --> 00:07:16,000 Speaker 1: And I mean, I was depressed and I and you know, 127 00:07:16,040 --> 00:07:18,120 Speaker 1: it's a it's kind of an embarrassing thing to even hear. 128 00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:20,320 Speaker 1: And I know I wrote that in my book that 129 00:07:20,360 --> 00:07:26,119 Speaker 1: I had faked a suicide and it was I didn't 130 00:07:26,160 --> 00:07:28,720 Speaker 1: know what else to do. You know, when a child 131 00:07:28,840 --> 00:07:33,080 Speaker 1: cries out and no one listens, they just have to 132 00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:36,160 Speaker 1: get louder and louder and louder, and I think the 133 00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:39,120 Speaker 1: same is true with not just children, but when in 134 00:07:39,240 --> 00:07:41,600 Speaker 1: systems that are so broken, like how do we start 135 00:07:41,640 --> 00:07:46,080 Speaker 1: to get heard in ecosystems that choose to keep us 136 00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:50,200 Speaker 1: down and hurt, keeping keep us in the pain that 137 00:07:50,200 --> 00:07:55,480 Speaker 1: we're in, intentionally or unintentionally. And so yeah, that was 138 00:07:55,680 --> 00:07:59,560 Speaker 1: that was a very difficult time. I left that school 139 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:05,000 Speaker 1: after after these experiences and went to a second high 140 00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:08,640 Speaker 1: school where I spent the year. I said maybe five 141 00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:13,200 Speaker 1: words the entire year. I figured that the safest way 142 00:08:13,200 --> 00:08:16,640 Speaker 1: to exist was to not exist in that second high school. 143 00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:19,960 Speaker 1: And you know, even as I say that it's it's 144 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:22,360 Speaker 1: it brings up a lot of pain and ache of 145 00:08:22,400 --> 00:08:26,000 Speaker 1: that that any child would have to do that hide 146 00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:31,840 Speaker 1: themselves to stay safe. And so yeah, when I got 147 00:08:31,840 --> 00:08:34,960 Speaker 1: accepted into this arts high school where Nicky and I 148 00:08:35,360 --> 00:08:39,800 Speaker 1: first met, it was like it was such a liberation. 149 00:08:40,559 --> 00:08:43,400 Speaker 1: It was an incredible experience to know that I was safe, 150 00:08:43,800 --> 00:08:46,600 Speaker 1: that there were people who were as weird as I was, 151 00:08:46,920 --> 00:08:50,400 Speaker 1: and and diverse and learning styles as I was just 152 00:08:50,600 --> 00:08:56,560 Speaker 1: thriving academically, thriving artistically. It makes such it makes such 153 00:08:56,559 --> 00:08:58,880 Speaker 1: an impact what an environment will. 154 00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:01,760 Speaker 5: Do oh, Scott, now my heart as a father of 155 00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:04,040 Speaker 5: three boys, just hearing you speak his way, it was 156 00:09:04,160 --> 00:09:06,199 Speaker 5: just a tight thing as you were describing that. 157 00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:06,920 Speaker 1: Oh my god. 158 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:14,520 Speaker 3: Yes, you call what you were doing back then weaponizing empathy. Yeah, 159 00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:18,319 Speaker 3: when we can't receive love, so we make others feel pain, 160 00:09:18,400 --> 00:09:23,120 Speaker 3: it's dead. Can you explain what weaponized empathy is and 161 00:09:23,600 --> 00:09:27,280 Speaker 3: how do we recognize when we're doing that or when 162 00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:29,320 Speaker 3: it's being done to us? 163 00:09:29,960 --> 00:09:32,920 Speaker 1: Yeah? I think so many of us are familiar with 164 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:37,160 Speaker 1: the phrase and eye for an eye, And there's a 165 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:41,000 Speaker 1: way not only can we not receive an apology or 166 00:09:41,120 --> 00:09:47,800 Speaker 1: validation or love, that when we can't receive something, we 167 00:09:47,880 --> 00:09:51,040 Speaker 1: can't actually do a process of repair. Right. So if 168 00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:54,080 Speaker 1: I say to you, I'm so sorry, but you're in 169 00:09:54,200 --> 00:09:57,800 Speaker 1: such embracing a defense mode that you can't receive the 170 00:09:57,880 --> 00:10:02,600 Speaker 1: sorry or the accountability statements, it never lands. And so 171 00:10:02,679 --> 00:10:05,840 Speaker 1: while someone might say I'm sorry, you never get to 172 00:10:05,880 --> 00:10:08,600 Speaker 1: experience the repair in the same way that I could 173 00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:12,760 Speaker 1: say to someone I love you. But if they're bracing, 174 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:16,559 Speaker 1: if they're holding, if they've had trauma, and literally their 175 00:10:16,640 --> 00:10:20,560 Speaker 1: oxytocin receptors have shrunk down in response to the trauma, 176 00:10:20,720 --> 00:10:24,320 Speaker 1: they can't receive the love. And so what do we 177 00:10:24,480 --> 00:10:28,280 Speaker 1: do as a way of making sure someone understands us, 178 00:10:28,480 --> 00:10:31,880 Speaker 1: or feels us, or truly gets our experience. Is we 179 00:10:31,960 --> 00:10:35,560 Speaker 1: make them have a similar experience. We evoke an emotional 180 00:10:35,600 --> 00:10:40,240 Speaker 1: response to hope that they understand at the experiential level 181 00:10:40,280 --> 00:10:43,160 Speaker 1: what we're going through. So, if Nikki and I were 182 00:10:43,160 --> 00:10:45,880 Speaker 1: in a fight and I am a person who has 183 00:10:45,920 --> 00:10:49,960 Speaker 1: had a significant amount of trauma and is bracing, and 184 00:10:50,040 --> 00:10:54,520 Speaker 1: she says or doesn't say sorry, what weaponized empathy is 185 00:10:54,520 --> 00:10:57,679 Speaker 1: is I'm going to bring back hate that thing that 186 00:10:57,800 --> 00:11:00,640 Speaker 1: you did five years ago, or I'm going to talk 187 00:11:00,640 --> 00:11:05,440 Speaker 1: about something else that makes you feel a level of 188 00:11:05,520 --> 00:11:11,200 Speaker 1: shame and hurt and pain so that you understand the 189 00:11:11,280 --> 00:11:15,880 Speaker 1: level of pain I am in. And that's something I 190 00:11:15,920 --> 00:11:20,439 Speaker 1: had discovered was happening in myself, having navigated a lot 191 00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:23,680 Speaker 1: of trauma. Was like, there would be people in my 192 00:11:23,679 --> 00:11:25,840 Speaker 1: life who would try to make repair, but I didn't 193 00:11:25,880 --> 00:11:28,760 Speaker 1: believe them until they would be in some level of 194 00:11:28,880 --> 00:11:31,959 Speaker 1: hurt and pain themselves. Then I would say, okay, now 195 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:34,840 Speaker 1: we're on the same plane. Now we can start to repair. 196 00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:36,960 Speaker 1: But at that point they're too hurt to even be 197 00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:40,560 Speaker 1: in a process of repair. I've hurt them too far, 198 00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:44,680 Speaker 1: and I've seen that in so many clients I've worked with, 199 00:11:44,720 --> 00:11:48,640 Speaker 1: their groups that I've worked with, is that the bracing 200 00:11:48,800 --> 00:11:53,240 Speaker 1: and the ways in which we have survived to not 201 00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:57,720 Speaker 1: take in more experience, more pain, more trauma, prevents us 202 00:11:57,760 --> 00:12:02,200 Speaker 1: from actually doing the really important human relational work, which 203 00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:05,400 Speaker 1: is repair, and instead, I project that you need to 204 00:12:05,440 --> 00:12:08,360 Speaker 1: be in some type of discomfort in order for us 205 00:12:08,400 --> 00:12:09,680 Speaker 1: to be on an equal playing field. 206 00:12:10,280 --> 00:12:12,880 Speaker 4: Hurt people, hurt people, hurt. 207 00:12:12,679 --> 00:12:15,480 Speaker 1: People, hurt people because they have to to be in 208 00:12:15,559 --> 00:12:17,640 Speaker 1: the same level of human experience. 209 00:12:18,520 --> 00:12:21,800 Speaker 5: Wow, Nicole, and I know you met him after that 210 00:12:22,280 --> 00:12:26,360 Speaker 5: extremely difficult time in high school. What did he share 211 00:12:26,679 --> 00:12:31,240 Speaker 5: about that? Do you remember conversations and how you were 212 00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:33,640 Speaker 5: best able to support him on that journey? 213 00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:37,800 Speaker 6: You know, I think during those times in our lives, 214 00:12:37,880 --> 00:12:42,920 Speaker 6: especially in mid late high school, we I think there 215 00:12:42,920 --> 00:12:45,920 Speaker 6: are times of great openness. People are willing to share 216 00:12:46,280 --> 00:12:49,480 Speaker 6: bits and pieces of themselves. It's a very emotional time. 217 00:12:49,520 --> 00:12:52,640 Speaker 6: There's definitely a lot of hormones going to say hormones. 218 00:12:52,960 --> 00:12:58,000 Speaker 4: Yeah, we have a seventeen year almost eighteen year old, and. 219 00:12:57,880 --> 00:13:00,600 Speaker 6: So there does there is like this moment especially because 220 00:13:00,600 --> 00:13:02,040 Speaker 6: we you know, we were going to a boarding school, 221 00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:04,080 Speaker 6: so there's a lot of time that we got to 222 00:13:04,080 --> 00:13:07,160 Speaker 6: spend with one another, and of course the stories emerged, 223 00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:10,840 Speaker 6: and you know, Scott shared stories of you know, the 224 00:13:10,880 --> 00:13:14,280 Speaker 6: trauma of his past, and it was for me really 225 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:19,160 Speaker 6: more of a witnessing and a hearing and and acknowledging 226 00:13:19,360 --> 00:13:22,240 Speaker 6: then oh, I have something to fix or you know, 227 00:13:22,360 --> 00:13:24,760 Speaker 6: we we can work through this, you know. For I 228 00:13:24,800 --> 00:13:27,320 Speaker 6: think at that time, it was just being heard and 229 00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:31,840 Speaker 6: being seen and being okay for who you were. And 230 00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:34,800 Speaker 6: the other lair is the creative lair. And I would 231 00:13:34,800 --> 00:13:38,320 Speaker 6: say most of the youth that were in our program 232 00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:43,960 Speaker 6: had experienced trauma of various kinds and embodied work like 233 00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:50,320 Speaker 6: improv and uh, you know, we were even doing dance theater, 234 00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:52,520 Speaker 6: and that those sorts of things can really help build 235 00:13:52,559 --> 00:13:53,239 Speaker 6: new pathways. 236 00:13:53,400 --> 00:13:56,079 Speaker 1: But I think one of the things that's often missed 237 00:13:57,040 --> 00:14:04,880 Speaker 1: from real trauma therapy is a and laughter and humor, 238 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:08,319 Speaker 1: And that's certainly been one of the things I tried 239 00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:13,160 Speaker 1: to bring back as a traumatologist is hey, we don't 240 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:16,040 Speaker 1: have it doesn't all have to be intense. That we 241 00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:21,280 Speaker 1: build a garden of different experiences like play like laughing again, 242 00:14:21,880 --> 00:14:24,880 Speaker 1: that allows for a significant process of healing to actually 243 00:14:24,920 --> 00:14:28,040 Speaker 1: do more the heavy work of contacting and touching into 244 00:14:28,040 --> 00:14:31,320 Speaker 1: the more painful experiences. So the fact that Nikki was 245 00:14:31,880 --> 00:14:34,920 Speaker 1: assigned my improv partner for most of high school because 246 00:14:35,840 --> 00:14:37,200 Speaker 1: no one else wanted to be. 247 00:14:39,640 --> 00:14:43,160 Speaker 4: Or could be that you were hard to improv with, 248 00:14:43,240 --> 00:14:45,800 Speaker 4: like you had to she had to go big and 249 00:14:45,880 --> 00:14:46,960 Speaker 4: go home in. 250 00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:47,440 Speaker 2: Order to. 251 00:14:49,160 --> 00:14:54,120 Speaker 1: Nicole could go big, And I was always very exaggerated 252 00:14:54,160 --> 00:14:56,840 Speaker 1: and intensified, like I had no fear, which was part 253 00:14:56,880 --> 00:15:04,320 Speaker 1: of the change there. This is why we love. 254 00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:09,880 Speaker 4: The Plus he has no filter. Yeah, Martin has no filter. 255 00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:13,640 Speaker 1: How does that show up no filter for you? 256 00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:14,800 Speaker 4: Can I answer on your back? 257 00:15:14,920 --> 00:15:17,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, because I'm not sure about. 258 00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:25,480 Speaker 4: Just say like sometimes even when we are we're together 259 00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:29,480 Speaker 4: and with my sisters, he'll say something that even as 260 00:15:29,520 --> 00:15:32,480 Speaker 4: supposed to be like a compliment, compliment or telling a 261 00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:36,280 Speaker 4: story that that you know about I don't know ex 262 00:15:36,360 --> 00:15:40,400 Speaker 4: girlfriend or just anything, and then he'll keep going down 263 00:15:40,440 --> 00:15:45,040 Speaker 4: a hill that he should not go. And my sisters 264 00:15:45,080 --> 00:15:49,480 Speaker 4: would even they'll tell him, like bro, stop like sometimes 265 00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:52,280 Speaker 4: like he'll give a compliment and just as as opposed 266 00:15:52,280 --> 00:15:54,920 Speaker 4: to stopping with the compliment like, oh, you look nice today, 267 00:15:55,240 --> 00:16:00,520 Speaker 4: beautiful compliment because yesterday what you had on not like 268 00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:04,960 Speaker 4: that's what I'm like, That's what I mean. Yeah. Also, 269 00:16:05,080 --> 00:16:08,600 Speaker 4: I'm reminded as when you're talking about trauma and the 270 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:13,440 Speaker 4: importance of joy, one of the things that stirred up 271 00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:17,720 Speaker 4: for me is thinking about your father, because what people 272 00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:23,400 Speaker 4: don't know is how funny not only that he was 273 00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:26,360 Speaker 4: and how funny you are, but how that humor was 274 00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:31,080 Speaker 4: used at such difficult times. After you've been stabbed within 275 00:16:31,120 --> 00:16:33,440 Speaker 4: an inch of your and literally within an inch of 276 00:16:33,480 --> 00:16:36,480 Speaker 4: your life, you know, they would go back sometimes to 277 00:16:36,520 --> 00:16:39,800 Speaker 4: the hotel and have pillow fights because of the fact 278 00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:44,000 Speaker 4: that you are facing death right, So the trauma of 279 00:16:44,080 --> 00:16:44,680 Speaker 4: dealing with that. 280 00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:48,320 Speaker 1: I love that capacity and like that that that's so 281 00:16:48,520 --> 00:16:52,280 Speaker 1: moving actually to hear in the face of what he's 282 00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:57,120 Speaker 1: navigated to be able to find the playfulness to sort 283 00:16:57,120 --> 00:17:03,240 Speaker 1: of balance out the significant heaviness that most of us 284 00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:07,040 Speaker 1: I don't think we'll ever know. Absolutely, and yes to pillow. 285 00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:09,840 Speaker 4: Fights, and when you all work together again, you also 286 00:17:09,880 --> 00:17:11,240 Speaker 4: have a pillow fight. 287 00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:15,919 Speaker 1: In honor of Martin Luther King, I spent the first 288 00:17:15,960 --> 00:17:19,600 Speaker 1: couple of years as a therapist having pillow fights in 289 00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:22,959 Speaker 1: my office with class Wow, and people thought I was wild. 290 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:26,359 Speaker 1: I mean I am wild, but like, but the significant 291 00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:30,040 Speaker 1: discharge and release of all of that activation through some 292 00:17:30,080 --> 00:17:33,960 Speaker 1: type of vehicle movement is essential for healing, right that 293 00:17:34,359 --> 00:17:38,080 Speaker 1: it has to go somewhere, And it's just about like 294 00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:40,760 Speaker 1: being able to still feel it and channel it into 295 00:17:41,240 --> 00:17:45,679 Speaker 1: some type of whether it's a run or a laugh 296 00:17:46,040 --> 00:17:49,080 Speaker 1: or a cry, these are all just vehicles for emotion 297 00:17:49,280 --> 00:17:50,480 Speaker 1: to come back into motion. 298 00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:54,080 Speaker 5: And Scott, in fact, if I can move into that area, 299 00:17:55,040 --> 00:17:57,800 Speaker 5: because you talked about the idea of needing to get 300 00:17:57,800 --> 00:18:00,160 Speaker 5: it out, you know, and and I mean I'm move 301 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:02,560 Speaker 5: a little bit further into your twenties. You were in 302 00:18:02,560 --> 00:18:05,440 Speaker 5: grad school, broke up with the long term partner, lost 303 00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:08,520 Speaker 5: the big job, lost your health insurance, you know, all 304 00:18:08,640 --> 00:18:11,239 Speaker 5: ones like you shared that rock Bod period you call 305 00:18:11,280 --> 00:18:14,800 Speaker 5: your axent purposely get into fights. Yeah, And I'm like, oh, 306 00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:16,440 Speaker 5: I was got to relate to that a little bit. 307 00:18:16,520 --> 00:18:21,399 Speaker 5: And so when did you realize it wasn't grief like 308 00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:23,440 Speaker 5: you were feeling something else? Like maybe it was this 309 00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:26,480 Speaker 5: this needs to channel emotions or how would you describe that? 310 00:18:27,359 --> 00:18:30,200 Speaker 1: I think so many of us might feel a flatness 311 00:18:30,280 --> 00:18:33,400 Speaker 1: in our life or can relate to a certain time 312 00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:35,760 Speaker 1: period where we felt flat or I think the more 313 00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:38,159 Speaker 1: popular saying would be like a little dead inside, a 314 00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:44,760 Speaker 1: little underwhelmed by life. And you know there are certain 315 00:18:45,040 --> 00:18:48,800 Speaker 1: activities or things that we might need to rise above 316 00:18:48,840 --> 00:18:53,080 Speaker 1: the threshold to feel again right. And if you've gone 317 00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:56,040 Speaker 1: through depression, you might know that experience. And you know, 318 00:18:56,080 --> 00:19:00,679 Speaker 1: one of the caveats of trauma is that there's so 319 00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:04,000 Speaker 1: much that has had to be suppressed and repressed and 320 00:19:04,040 --> 00:19:06,639 Speaker 1: can't be felt as a means of survival, and so 321 00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:11,439 Speaker 1: you need experiences that rise above that level of the 322 00:19:11,520 --> 00:19:17,160 Speaker 1: decibel of numbness to experience again. And for me getting 323 00:19:17,240 --> 00:19:20,840 Speaker 1: into fights and to go do shows in front of 324 00:19:20,840 --> 00:19:23,960 Speaker 1: five thousand people and to go do improv on the 325 00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:26,719 Speaker 1: street with Nicki Wu in the middle of Times Square. 326 00:19:27,119 --> 00:19:30,440 Speaker 1: You know that those type of like very high octane 327 00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:34,439 Speaker 1: experiences were the ways I could know I was alive 328 00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:43,600 Speaker 1: and when I was out of this relationship that Nicki 329 00:19:43,640 --> 00:19:47,320 Speaker 1: knows quite well that that was just like it was 330 00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:51,199 Speaker 1: I was toxic, he was toxic. We were toxic. Whatever 331 00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:54,640 Speaker 1: that means, it just means that we were playing each 332 00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:59,200 Speaker 1: other's traumas out to the max degree right and staying 333 00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:01,760 Speaker 1: in it as opposed to realizing that we could do 334 00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:06,199 Speaker 1: we could separate or do something differently. And I, like 335 00:20:06,280 --> 00:20:10,000 Speaker 1: I realized in retrospect, I needed that level of chaos 336 00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:14,040 Speaker 1: and crisis to actually both because it was familiar to 337 00:20:14,080 --> 00:20:17,080 Speaker 1: the ecosystem I grew up in, so it felt somewhat 338 00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:21,280 Speaker 1: quote unquote safe, but it also gave me a sense 339 00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:27,080 Speaker 1: of like a liveness. It was adventure, and without it 340 00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:31,959 Speaker 1: when I we separated, I was like, oh, it's too quiet, 341 00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:35,399 Speaker 1: and and I needed those fights or some type of 342 00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:40,520 Speaker 1: drama or crisis to feel anything at all. You know, 343 00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:45,080 Speaker 1: when I give this example, when I lecture a lot, 344 00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:50,280 Speaker 1: like if you're used to salting your vegetables, right then 345 00:20:50,359 --> 00:20:55,480 Speaker 1: you know vegetables as this like salted experience. And let's 346 00:20:55,480 --> 00:20:57,399 Speaker 1: say your doctor says, okay, you got to cut your 347 00:20:57,400 --> 00:21:00,240 Speaker 1: salt out. You got you got some hypertension issue use 348 00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:04,000 Speaker 1: and you start to eat that vegetable and you're like, 349 00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:07,440 Speaker 1: this is disgusting. There's no spice, there's no flavor, there's 350 00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:11,560 Speaker 1: nothing here. And so you take some time and you 351 00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:15,840 Speaker 1: have to maintain the doctor's orders, and over time, the 352 00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:19,159 Speaker 1: taste of the vegetables gets to come back, right, The 353 00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:22,800 Speaker 1: nuances of the flavors, the textures, all of that returns. 354 00:21:23,359 --> 00:21:26,320 Speaker 1: But there's this gap period that has to happen between 355 00:21:26,359 --> 00:21:28,919 Speaker 1: over salting your food and only knowing vegetables as this 356 00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:33,560 Speaker 1: extreme salted, crispy thing that you fry or whatever, to 357 00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:40,840 Speaker 1: the flavors of life that actually exist, and when you've 358 00:21:40,920 --> 00:21:46,280 Speaker 1: experienced trauma, those nuances of flavors cannot exist. 359 00:21:46,680 --> 00:21:46,880 Speaker 3: Right. 360 00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:51,359 Speaker 1: If we were to experience the many, many flavors of 361 00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:55,960 Speaker 1: life and have to be that exposed and fragmented, we 362 00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:57,120 Speaker 1: wouldn't be able to survive. 363 00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:03,359 Speaker 3: Nicole, you were watching your best fan self destruct. What's 364 00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:09,120 Speaker 3: the hardest part about loving someone who's using drama to survive? 365 00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:12,919 Speaker 6: I will I will say it is super hard to see. 366 00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:16,199 Speaker 1: Did you know I was dramatic, Nikki? 367 00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:24,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, now it's hard. 368 00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:27,280 Speaker 6: I think the hardest thing is really realizing that, like 369 00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:31,000 Speaker 6: the pain and the energy could be channeled into something 370 00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:33,399 Speaker 6: else that like, it doesn't like, it doesn't have to 371 00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:35,600 Speaker 6: hurt like this, it doesn't have to be like this. 372 00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:39,600 Speaker 6: I think the hardest part was, you know, finding you know, 373 00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:41,040 Speaker 6: it's like finding the right. 374 00:22:42,359 --> 00:22:43,160 Speaker 4: Level of. 375 00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:48,920 Speaker 6: Compassion and care and how to be heard and also 376 00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:52,680 Speaker 6: just really realizing that, you know, for me, it's like, oh, Scott, 377 00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:53,760 Speaker 6: you're an amazing person. 378 00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:56,840 Speaker 2: You know, just just move on, you know. 379 00:22:56,920 --> 00:23:00,320 Speaker 6: But alternatively, I will say, you know, the thrills seeking 380 00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:03,280 Speaker 6: or the desire for all those salty vegetables or Scott 381 00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:05,919 Speaker 6: has always been a thrill seeker in all areas of 382 00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:08,080 Speaker 6: his life. But it has been a really beautiful thing 383 00:23:08,359 --> 00:23:12,440 Speaker 6: to see the milestones shift and into oh, these these 384 00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:14,960 Speaker 6: big thrills and these big bumps of drama have to 385 00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:18,000 Speaker 6: happen in my relationships to Hey, Nikki, why don't we 386 00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:18,840 Speaker 6: go hang gliding? 387 00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:20,480 Speaker 2: Why don't we go get seeing? 388 00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:24,320 Speaker 6: Why don't we you know, do all these like why 389 00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:26,600 Speaker 6: don't you come to Greece and we'll like go on 390 00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:29,960 Speaker 6: this yacht okay and jump off the back the back, 391 00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:32,200 Speaker 6: flip off the back of this thing. You know. It's like, Okay, 392 00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:36,280 Speaker 6: how can we channel that desire for extreme experience into 393 00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:40,960 Speaker 6: something that is productive and generative instead of how can 394 00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:46,640 Speaker 6: I feed the drama cycle into relationships that. 395 00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:47,879 Speaker 2: Aren't going to benefit anyone? 396 00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:52,320 Speaker 6: Yeah, So that's been a beautiful evolution. I still get 397 00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:55,760 Speaker 6: scared Scott to do the White Water tubing, you know, but. 398 00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:02,040 Speaker 1: I took white and it didn't go well. 399 00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:06,719 Speaker 6: It did end up with me crying and saying I 400 00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:07,960 Speaker 6: need acupuncture. 401 00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:12,160 Speaker 2: I was bringing the drama, you guys. 402 00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:16,200 Speaker 3: It was well, you know, we all have friends who 403 00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:20,840 Speaker 3: want to do extreme things, and when do you draw 404 00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:23,399 Speaker 3: the line? Like, you know, I have friends who swim 405 00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:28,119 Speaker 3: with sharks, and I'm like, okay, I love you. 406 00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:31,840 Speaker 1: It's a great question of like where do we know 407 00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:36,680 Speaker 1: the line for? You know, because novelty is a way 408 00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:42,440 Speaker 1: in which we experience zest right, it's the we need novelty. 409 00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:45,560 Speaker 1: It's the ways, you know. There's this interesting research on 410 00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:48,840 Speaker 1: time that most of us often say, like where did 411 00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:50,960 Speaker 1: time go? I feel like it's just passing me by, 412 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:55,040 Speaker 1: And and the research shows that our ability to be 413 00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:59,399 Speaker 1: able to focus and our ability to experience novelty is 414 00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:02,400 Speaker 1: what gives us a sense that time is actually slow 415 00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:05,439 Speaker 1: enough for us to marinate in and let life is 416 00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:07,960 Speaker 1: slow enough for us to marinate in and experience it. 417 00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:13,199 Speaker 1: And so we need novelty. We need new experiences. But 418 00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:16,719 Speaker 1: do they have to be swimming with sharks? Is the question? Yes. 419 00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:23,320 Speaker 1: Sometimes I think that if we can find newness in 420 00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:26,360 Speaker 1: a beautiful conversation. That's great. And if we can find 421 00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:29,639 Speaker 1: it in sharks, that's great. But do we The question 422 00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:33,760 Speaker 1: is can we only find it in the extremes? You know, 423 00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:37,199 Speaker 1: it's like if I can't go and try some a 424 00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:40,359 Speaker 1: new dish that he has and really taste the flavors 425 00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:44,359 Speaker 1: of that and sit and have a discussion and a meal, 426 00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:49,520 Speaker 1: you know that's really special by candlelight or whatever, and 427 00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:52,640 Speaker 1: that gets me and I'm bored by that, And I'm 428 00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:55,400 Speaker 1: not bored when I'm jumping out of a plane and 429 00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:58,400 Speaker 1: with a parachute. Then that's really good information. 430 00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:04,760 Speaker 2: Wow, something that you want that doesn't require her shark. 431 00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:11,160 Speaker 4: Like just that Like what like can you find that 432 00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:15,080 Speaker 4: that same fulfillment? Yeah, in a candlelight dinner with the 433 00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:18,200 Speaker 4: loved one, as you know, jumping out of a plane. 434 00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:20,679 Speaker 5: That Alga, there's the stage in my life I remember Like, 435 00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:23,280 Speaker 5: so I did the running with the bulls, the learning 436 00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:26,480 Speaker 5: how to do solo skydiving, the Nitrix underwater deep set 437 00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:30,080 Speaker 5: like all that stuff, climbing mountains, et cetera. And then 438 00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:32,800 Speaker 5: I met my wife and then suddenly like no, that 439 00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:35,000 Speaker 5: was like a great adventure of life. Well, you never 440 00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:37,520 Speaker 5: needed to do it again. Like to your point, like kids, 441 00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:40,199 Speaker 5: oh my god, all these other things that became like 442 00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:42,280 Speaker 5: no desire to go, you know, throw myself in the 443 00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:45,600 Speaker 5: middle of a deathifying state to your point, those other 444 00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:46,760 Speaker 5: things that fill us. 445 00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:49,040 Speaker 2: Wow, Yeah, very interesting. 446 00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:52,119 Speaker 1: If someone didn't invite me to hike Kilmanjaro on the 447 00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:54,360 Speaker 1: second date, I probably there was a time period whe 448 00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:56,280 Speaker 1: I probably wouldn't have gone out with them on the 449 00:26:56,359 --> 00:27:00,360 Speaker 1: second or third date, and that only changed since last week. 450 00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:01,640 Speaker 1: But I am proud of this thing. 451 00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:07,200 Speaker 4: Scrolling won't change your life, but subscribing just might. We're 452 00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:11,080 Speaker 4: sharing real stories, heart won wisdom and unforgettable lessons that 453 00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:14,280 Speaker 4: stay with you long after the screen goals. Start tap 454 00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:17,760 Speaker 4: that button and stay connected to conversations that truly count. 455 00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:20,720 Speaker 4: Let's keep going through your life. This you didn't realize 456 00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:22,360 Speaker 4: this was going to be this is your life. Yeah, 457 00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:26,760 Speaker 4: you got a PhD in clinical psychology, which was a 458 00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:31,880 Speaker 4: complete career change from directing choreography. But then you chose 459 00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:36,240 Speaker 4: to study addiction to drama. And I've heard the saying 460 00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:39,720 Speaker 4: a lot of times that research really is mesearch. So 461 00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:43,119 Speaker 4: when did you realize that you were onto something with 462 00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:45,440 Speaker 4: this the study of drama. 463 00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:48,320 Speaker 1: I've done a lot of one eighties in my life. 464 00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:50,359 Speaker 1: I like to think of myself kind of like Madonna 465 00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:53,959 Speaker 1: in a constant revolution, Like I'm a CEO of you know, 466 00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:57,359 Speaker 1: those of the tech company now and I'm you know, 467 00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:00,200 Speaker 1: it's still see clients, But I like reinvention tours. 468 00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:03,840 Speaker 4: Young listeners who maybe are not, as you know, schooled 469 00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:06,159 Speaker 4: in Madonna from the eighties and nineties. I guess the 470 00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:09,879 Speaker 4: closest would be maybe Taylor Swift in her eras, but 471 00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:13,080 Speaker 4: those of us who know, Yeah. 472 00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:17,480 Speaker 1: I was directing a big rock band and in a show. Wow, 473 00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:22,960 Speaker 1: And I just remember going, oh, my gosh, this is 474 00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:26,639 Speaker 1: the pinnacle of my career. I have more money as 475 00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:29,800 Speaker 1: a budget than I could ever even fathom. I the 476 00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:33,040 Speaker 1: kind of remember around my first meeting around the show, 477 00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:36,600 Speaker 1: They're like, you can have penguins on stage if you want. 478 00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:40,720 Speaker 1: That's that's how big it is. And I was like, oh, 479 00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:46,760 Speaker 1: I'm definitely getting penguins. And I was in the middle 480 00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:48,480 Speaker 1: of the show and I was like, I'm not happy. 481 00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:52,880 Speaker 1: And if i'm if I'm working in this way, and 482 00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:56,000 Speaker 1: I'm I feel like I'm everyone's therapist. Anyways, I might 483 00:28:56,040 --> 00:29:00,280 Speaker 1: as well go back to school for it. And I 484 00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:03,760 Speaker 1: so yeah. I started doing my master's in PhD in 485 00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:09,520 Speaker 1: clinical psychology, and I was like, well, it's a long shot, 486 00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:13,080 Speaker 1: but maybe I can study drama. And one of the 487 00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:19,280 Speaker 1: interesting things as I started to do research was everyone 488 00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:21,520 Speaker 1: I ever spoke to about it, They're like, oh, I 489 00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:24,400 Speaker 1: know someone like that. And when I started lecturing about it, 490 00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:27,440 Speaker 1: I would start with the question who here knows someone 491 00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:31,440 Speaker 1: addicted to drama? Not defining it at all, right, every 492 00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:35,280 Speaker 1: single person in that audience would raise their hand, and 493 00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:37,840 Speaker 1: then I would ask the hard question, which was who 494 00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:42,280 Speaker 1: here is addicted to drama? And maybe one or two 495 00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:45,080 Speaker 1: people would raise their hand, and I was like, well, 496 00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:49,120 Speaker 1: this is really interesting. It's you know, this concept of 497 00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:52,640 Speaker 1: addiction to drama is so in the general understanding, and 498 00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:55,080 Speaker 1: yet it's not in any of the literature. It's not 499 00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:59,840 Speaker 1: in the DSM, the Diagnostics Statistical Manual which therapists used 500 00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:04,440 Speaker 1: to I knows or some do. And so how is 501 00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:08,520 Speaker 1: it something that everyone knows but hasn't been unpacked And 502 00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:11,680 Speaker 1: how is it that everyone knows someone but no one 503 00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:17,600 Speaker 1: is that person? Which taught me a lot about typically 504 00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:21,000 Speaker 1: those who are addicted are the last to know, which 505 00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:23,320 Speaker 1: is when I made the joke earlier about Nikki, did 506 00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:27,120 Speaker 1: you know I was dramatic? And she, you know, Colely responded, 507 00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:32,000 Speaker 1: you know I was the last to know, certainly, and 508 00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:35,880 Speaker 1: especially with behavioral addictions, because they integrate into our identity, 509 00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:40,400 Speaker 1: our perception of life, and truly become part of our 510 00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:44,000 Speaker 1: survival mechanism, so we don't see them as quote unquote 511 00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:48,280 Speaker 1: an addiction. The research was really exciting for me because 512 00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:51,440 Speaker 1: I was like, Okay, everyone knows someone or everyone knows 513 00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:54,600 Speaker 1: this concept, so at least that's a starting point to 514 00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:59,000 Speaker 1: really dive in and go, well, what does stress, what 515 00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:03,840 Speaker 1: does rama, stress, chaos, crisis actually do for us? Because 516 00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:08,800 Speaker 1: all addictions, all every single addiction has a purpose. It 517 00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:12,480 Speaker 1: does something, and what it does is it relieves us 518 00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:18,400 Speaker 1: of pain. Fundamentally, that is what it does. It distracts us. 519 00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:23,160 Speaker 1: It takes us out of an underlying pain. And so 520 00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:26,120 Speaker 1: I asked The question I had was, Okay, well, if 521 00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:33,160 Speaker 1: every addiction relieves pain at some level, how does drama 522 00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:36,800 Speaker 1: how to stress, which is the very thing we're inducing 523 00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:40,680 Speaker 1: more of an addiction to drama possibly give us some 524 00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:44,880 Speaker 1: type of support or sense of relief from pain. And 525 00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:48,760 Speaker 1: it does. The science is really really clear that like 526 00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:52,720 Speaker 1: when we get stressed out right, let's say our video 527 00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:57,960 Speaker 1: equipment's not working right now or any minute. Stress to 528 00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:02,520 Speaker 1: any maximum stress, you release endorphins. Just like when you 529 00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:04,800 Speaker 1: go for a run, you get that runners high, right, 530 00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:09,480 Speaker 1: So we naturally produce pain relievers in our body or 531 00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:13,400 Speaker 1: blockers to pain when we are in a stress response. 532 00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:18,240 Speaker 1: But here's the kicker. If you're familiar with addictions, you 533 00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:20,400 Speaker 1: might know that in order for it to qualify for 534 00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:24,080 Speaker 1: an addiction, you need more to get high. Right, there's 535 00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:26,840 Speaker 1: a threshold, there's a tolerance level. The word is tolerance. 536 00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:30,400 Speaker 1: And so like if I'm alcohol, for example, I will 537 00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:34,120 Speaker 1: need more alcohol each time, progressively over time to get 538 00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:36,520 Speaker 1: drunk or to have the pain relief effect of it, 539 00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:40,200 Speaker 1: the numbing effect of it, the same is true with 540 00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:45,840 Speaker 1: stress and endorphins. So if I'm naturally getting some type 541 00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:49,200 Speaker 1: of pain relief and energy by the way, because there's 542 00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:52,959 Speaker 1: an energy boost every time you get stressed, like drinking 543 00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:56,560 Speaker 1: a cup of coffee, except a little bit more powerful. Actually, 544 00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:02,840 Speaker 1: then what happens is I get that pain relief and 545 00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:07,480 Speaker 1: it feels good. I feel better. I literally feel less pain, 546 00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:11,360 Speaker 1: and so I might go towards the things that keep 547 00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:15,920 Speaker 1: relieving me a pain, even though they're stressful, the situations, 548 00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:19,480 Speaker 1: the relationships, the circumstances, the jobs, all of that, even 549 00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:23,400 Speaker 1: though we complain about it, we are simultaneously getting an 550 00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:28,160 Speaker 1: endorphin release. And the challenge of that is I need 551 00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:31,440 Speaker 1: more endorphins over time to maintain the pain relief. So 552 00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:35,280 Speaker 1: I become stuck in that cycle of needing more stress 553 00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:39,400 Speaker 1: to get more pain relief. That's the physiology that we're 554 00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:46,000 Speaker 1: actually talking about, which is so interesting. And stress is 555 00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:52,800 Speaker 1: not only the most contagious emotional state, but it also 556 00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:59,240 Speaker 1: creates the most emotional bonding. So when I was I 557 00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:02,000 Speaker 1: moved to New York a few days before nine to 558 00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:06,000 Speaker 1: eleven September eleventh, two thousand and one, before the towers 559 00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:10,319 Speaker 1: went down. And there's been a lot of research about this, 560 00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:12,719 Speaker 1: but this was also my personal experience of like the 561 00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:14,440 Speaker 1: first couple of days in New York, and I remember 562 00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:18,680 Speaker 1: calling NICKI and being like, nobody's nice here. We're from Minnesota. 563 00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:20,799 Speaker 1: We're so nice, you know, like we grew up in 564 00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:23,279 Speaker 1: these small towns. We like talk to each other, you 565 00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:26,000 Speaker 1: talk to your neighbors. And I was like, I went 566 00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:28,200 Speaker 1: to a yoga studio and some guy told me that 567 00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:32,080 Speaker 1: my accent was stupid. And a yoga studio in New 568 00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:37,600 Speaker 1: York City and only New York, Only in New York City, 569 00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:43,719 Speaker 1: my brother and a few days later, after this catastrophic experience, 570 00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:48,719 Speaker 1: the proximity, the sense of connection I had to strangers. 571 00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:51,160 Speaker 1: I would literally hold people on the bus and cry 572 00:34:51,200 --> 00:34:54,560 Speaker 1: with them. We would talk about our lives with each other. 573 00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:58,520 Speaker 1: There was an openness, there was a connectivity, and you 574 00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:00,960 Speaker 1: know that. That's say New York Straw came out of that. 575 00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:06,520 Speaker 1: And what they mean is relationally stronger. And there's lots 576 00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:10,640 Speaker 1: of interesting studies that show that groups of individuals who 577 00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:13,080 Speaker 1: go through a stressful experience, even like sticking their hand 578 00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:16,520 Speaker 1: in cold water, as a group where they feel at 579 00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:20,400 Speaker 1: some level of stress and pain, not only are closer, 580 00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:26,839 Speaker 1: but perform better and challenging tasks. So stress does these 581 00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:29,800 Speaker 1: wild things. It gives us pain relief, It gives us energy, 582 00:35:30,120 --> 00:35:33,160 Speaker 1: It makes us feel closer in relationships when we have 583 00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:39,280 Speaker 1: a shared stressful experience, and all of these things accumulate 584 00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:44,560 Speaker 1: into a need for it, it becomes part of a 585 00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:46,040 Speaker 1: cycle or what we call an addiction. 586 00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:51,520 Speaker 2: Thank you for joining us. New episodes drop every Tuesday 587 00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:55,560 Speaker 2: with bonus content every Thursday. Don't forget to subscribe so 588 00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:56,680 Speaker 2: you never miss a moment.