WEBVTT - The Secret to a Good Conversation 0:00:14.956 --> 0:00:15.436 Pushkin. 0:00:30.716 --> 0:00:33.036 When you and I have a real conversation, our bodies 0:00:33.036 --> 0:00:35.676 and our brains change. Our heart rates starts to match 0:00:35.716 --> 0:00:37.716 each other, our breath patterns starts to match each other, 0:00:37.796 --> 0:00:41.396 our pupils start to dilate at similar rates, and more importantly, 0:00:41.436 --> 0:00:45.036 the neural activity within our brains starts to look more 0:00:45.076 --> 0:00:49.076 and more similar. This simultaneity, the similarity, is at the 0:00:49.116 --> 0:00:54.076 core of communication and is what makes communication so powerful, 0:00:54.476 --> 0:00:56.676 and our brains have evolved that when we achieve it, 0:00:56.796 --> 0:00:58.236 we feel wonderful. 0:00:59.396 --> 0:01:02.236 Journalist Charles Duhigg is interested in the science of what 0:01:02.356 --> 0:01:05.796 makes for a good conversation, and one thing he's learned 0:01:05.876 --> 0:01:08.716 is the importance of asking the right kind of question. 0:01:09.476 --> 0:01:11.996 Instead of asking someone about the facts of their life, 0:01:12.196 --> 0:01:14.476 ask them how they feel about their life. If you 0:01:14.476 --> 0:01:16.796 get into this habit of saying like I'm going to 0:01:16.836 --> 0:01:19.236 ask a question that invites the other person to tell 0:01:19.276 --> 0:01:21.676 me how they see themselves in the world, what they 0:01:21.716 --> 0:01:24.316 feel about something, what they think about it, rather than 0:01:24.356 --> 0:01:27.076 the facts about it, what you'll find is that it's 0:01:27.196 --> 0:01:28.996 overwhelmingly successful. 0:01:33.636 --> 0:01:36.916 On today's show, how to Connect More Deeply with Others, 0:01:39.596 --> 0:01:42.436 I'm Maya Shunker and this is a slight change of plans, 0:01:42.796 --> 0:01:44.956 a show about who we are and who we become 0:01:45.276 --> 0:02:01.156 in the face of a big change. Charles's latest book 0:02:01.276 --> 0:02:05.036 is called Super Communicators, How to Unlock This Secret Language 0:02:05.076 --> 0:02:08.556 of Connection. It's an exploration into how we can improve 0:02:08.636 --> 0:02:12.476 our communit nication skills, and it was inspired by challenges 0:02:12.596 --> 0:02:14.516 Charles was facing in his own life. 0:02:15.116 --> 0:02:17.876 I found that at home I was having these conversations 0:02:17.876 --> 0:02:20.676 with my wife and my kids that were not as 0:02:20.716 --> 0:02:22.876 meaningful and as deep as I felt like they should be. 0:02:23.476 --> 0:02:25.356 And then I felt like at work. I was a 0:02:25.396 --> 0:02:27.076 reporter at the New York Times at that point, and 0:02:27.116 --> 0:02:29.836 they made me a manager, and I figured I'd be 0:02:29.876 --> 0:02:32.156 great at it, right, like I've had managers my whole life, 0:02:32.636 --> 0:02:35.716 And I was fine that like the logistics and planning 0:02:35.756 --> 0:02:39.516 and strategy, I was terrible at communication, like just just 0:02:39.556 --> 0:02:45.036 shockingly bad and so unprepared and surprised by that. And 0:02:45.156 --> 0:02:47.796 so I basically decided, like, I'm going to start calling 0:02:47.876 --> 0:02:50.076 experts and ask them, if I'm a professional communicator as 0:02:50.076 --> 0:02:53.516 a journalist, why am I so bad at this? And 0:02:53.836 --> 0:02:55.916 what I learned when I called them was that they said, 0:02:56.636 --> 0:02:59.676 we're actually living through this golden age of understanding communication 0:02:59.756 --> 0:03:02.556 for really the first time. So we have answers to 0:03:02.596 --> 0:03:03.716 give you that even just. 0:03:03.676 --> 0:03:05.996 A decade ago, we might not have been able to provide. 0:03:06.716 --> 0:03:10.036 What kind of signals were you receiving at home and 0:03:10.076 --> 0:03:12.756 then at work that you were a crappy communicator? 0:03:13.156 --> 0:03:15.836 Yeah, Like, you know, sometimes my wife would come home 0:03:15.876 --> 0:03:17.996 and she'd have like a problem, like something that happened 0:03:17.996 --> 0:03:21.116 at work that she was kind of upset about, and 0:03:21.236 --> 0:03:23.396 what I would do is try and solve the problem 0:03:23.436 --> 0:03:26.116 for her, and she would get frustrated because she didn't 0:03:26.116 --> 0:03:27.956 want me to solve the problem right, She wanted me 0:03:28.036 --> 0:03:30.156 just to listen and empathize. Or I might come home 0:03:30.196 --> 0:03:32.236 from work and like, I've had a tough day and 0:03:32.236 --> 0:03:34.876 talk about how my boss doesn't understand me, and she says, 0:03:34.876 --> 0:03:36.356 why don't you take your boss out to lunch and 0:03:36.396 --> 0:03:37.956 get to know each other better? And then then I 0:03:37.996 --> 0:03:39.836 get upset and I say, you know, you're supposed to 0:03:39.876 --> 0:03:42.276 be on my side, why aren't you supporting me? And 0:03:42.556 --> 0:03:44.876 then at work, there were a number of times where 0:03:44.876 --> 0:03:48.036 people would come to me with something and it was 0:03:48.116 --> 0:03:49.916 clear that one or two things was happening. Either I 0:03:49.996 --> 0:03:52.676 was not hearing them accurately, because they would walk away 0:03:52.716 --> 0:03:56.396 upset or I was hearing them accurately and they didn't 0:03:56.476 --> 0:03:59.236 understand that I was listening. I was doing a bad 0:03:59.356 --> 0:04:01.596 job of proving to them that I'm listening to them. 0:04:02.556 --> 0:04:06.316 You talked about the science evolving, which is obviously super exciting, 0:04:06.756 --> 0:04:09.596 and you you know, your book is called super Kenmunicator. 0:04:09.636 --> 0:04:12.316 So there's this concept and we'll get into the traits 0:04:12.356 --> 0:04:15.596 of a super communicator later on, but I'd love to 0:04:15.676 --> 0:04:19.876 hear when you're in conversation with a super communicator, how 0:04:19.956 --> 0:04:21.756 is that person making you feel. 0:04:23.076 --> 0:04:24.036 It's a great question. 0:04:24.116 --> 0:04:26.556 It's a great question because you're focusing on not the 0:04:26.596 --> 0:04:28.596 super communicator, but the other person, and that's what the 0:04:28.596 --> 0:04:31.996 super communicator does too. So one of the things, and 0:04:32.116 --> 0:04:35.076 let me preface this by saying, being a super communicator 0:04:35.116 --> 0:04:37.236 is not that unique a skill. In fact, we all 0:04:37.316 --> 0:04:40.476 can be super communicators. One of the big insights from 0:04:40.476 --> 0:04:43.796 the research is that communication is a set of skills, 0:04:44.156 --> 0:04:46.676 and if you learn those skills, you can connect with 0:04:46.716 --> 0:04:49.916 almost anyone. What's happening. And this gets to how we 0:04:50.036 --> 0:04:54.196 feel in a conversation with a supercommunicator. When you and 0:04:54.276 --> 0:04:57.156 I have a real conversation, our bodies and our brains change. 0:04:57.516 --> 0:04:59.596 Our heart rate starts to match each other, our breath 0:04:59.596 --> 0:05:01.836 patterns starts to match each other, our pupils start to 0:05:01.836 --> 0:05:05.516 dilate at similar rates, and more importantly, the neural activity 0:05:05.516 --> 0:05:08.956 within our brains starts to look more and more similar. 0:05:09.636 --> 0:05:12.116 And Urry Hassan at Princeton, who I know you're familiar with, 0:05:12.396 --> 0:05:15.436 He's done a lot of this research looking at this 0:05:15.676 --> 0:05:19.476 simultaneity that our thoughts look more and more alike. And 0:05:19.516 --> 0:05:21.636 that makes sense when you think about it, because if 0:05:21.676 --> 0:05:23.916 I tell you about a feeling that I'm having, you 0:05:23.956 --> 0:05:25.996 actually experience that emotion a little bit, right. If I 0:05:25.996 --> 0:05:28.356 tell you about an idea, you experience that idea. So 0:05:28.396 --> 0:05:31.756 it makes sense that our brains would look similar. What 0:05:31.916 --> 0:05:36.356 Urian others have found is that it's this simultaneity, the 0:05:36.436 --> 0:05:40.636 similarity and what's known as neural entrainment is at the 0:05:40.676 --> 0:05:45.636 core of communication and is what makes communication so powerful, 0:05:46.076 --> 0:05:48.236 and our brains have evolved that when we achieve it, 0:05:48.356 --> 0:05:49.836 we feel wonderful. 0:05:50.476 --> 0:05:51.756 Wow, there's so much to unpack here. 0:05:51.836 --> 0:05:55.036 Okay, So the first thing that I'm hearing is we 0:05:55.076 --> 0:05:58.956 call it a conversation, but the ultimate reward is in 0:05:59.036 --> 0:06:01.756 the feeling of connectedness, because that is the thing that 0:06:01.796 --> 0:06:04.676 you're actually mapping too, right when it comes to that's 0:06:04.756 --> 0:06:05.596 the size of the brain. 0:06:05.716 --> 0:06:08.356 It's very good proving that you're listening, very you're doing 0:06:08.356 --> 0:06:11.996 a great job. You are a supercommunicator. But that's exactly right. Now, 0:06:12.036 --> 0:06:13.716 that doesn't mean we have to agree with each other. 0:06:14.276 --> 0:06:16.596 But as long as the goal of our conversation is 0:06:16.636 --> 0:06:18.956 to understand how the other person sees the world and 0:06:18.996 --> 0:06:20.556 to speak in such a way that you understand how 0:06:20.596 --> 0:06:23.316 I see the world, we will feel connected to each 0:06:23.356 --> 0:06:27.436 other even if we disagree, and that connectedness is at 0:06:27.436 --> 0:06:29.676 the core of why conversation is so important. 0:06:30.396 --> 0:06:33.396 The other thing you mentioned is that anyone can become 0:06:33.476 --> 0:06:36.036 a super communicator. I want to push back a little 0:06:36.036 --> 0:06:38.196 bit on this, which is like, clearly we can't all 0:06:38.236 --> 0:06:41.356 become the same level of super communicator. So in the 0:06:41.396 --> 0:06:45.236 same way that I mean, no one's born a basketball player, 0:06:45.276 --> 0:06:48.236 like no one's born a super communicator. People do have 0:06:48.356 --> 0:06:52.516 varying levels of potential given their genetic makeup, right, I mean, 0:06:53.236 --> 0:06:56.836 let's say proclivities towards introspection or emotional intelligence, like I 0:06:56.876 --> 0:06:58.996 just have to believe that those would be correlated with 0:06:59.356 --> 0:07:01.076 better communicative skills. 0:07:01.516 --> 0:07:02.516 So you're exactly right. 0:07:02.556 --> 0:07:06.796 There are some people for whom this is more intuitive. 0:07:07.076 --> 0:07:10.116 And we should make one observation, which is that there 0:07:10.156 --> 0:07:12.716 seems to be some research suggesting that folks who are 0:07:12.876 --> 0:07:16.716 on the autism spectrum, not the entire spectrum, but on 0:07:16.876 --> 0:07:20.156 part of the spectrum, that they do have a cognitive 0:07:20.236 --> 0:07:23.876 challenge around communicating with other folks. You're exactly right. Not 0:07:23.916 --> 0:07:27.636 all of us can become NBA players, but we can 0:07:27.756 --> 0:07:30.116 all learn to play a decent game of basketball. 0:07:31.036 --> 0:07:33.396 So you say, Charles, that one of the main reasons 0:07:33.396 --> 0:07:37.236 that we struggle to communicate effectively is that each person 0:07:38.036 --> 0:07:40.916 is often entering a discussion with a different goal in mind, 0:07:40.996 --> 0:07:44.716 and that there's actually distinct kinds of conversations that are 0:07:44.756 --> 0:07:47.996 happening within any given discussion. So can you walk me 0:07:48.076 --> 0:07:52.476 through the three different types of conversations we might have. 0:07:52.796 --> 0:07:53.396 Absolutely? 0:07:53.436 --> 0:07:55.116 Absolutely, And this is one of the big findings of 0:07:55.116 --> 0:07:57.836 the last decade is that when we have a discussion, 0:07:57.916 --> 0:08:00.436 we tend to assume it's about one thing, right, and 0:08:00.476 --> 0:08:02.476 we tend to assume that it's the goal that I 0:08:02.516 --> 0:08:04.316 have in mind, and you think it's the goal you 0:08:04.316 --> 0:08:08.316 have in mind. Inside every discussion is multiple kinds of conversations, 0:08:09.116 --> 0:08:11.556 different kinds of conversations. They use different parts of our brains, 0:08:11.596 --> 0:08:13.396 and they tend to fall into one of three buckets. 0:08:13.596 --> 0:08:16.476 There's these practical conversations where we're making plans together or 0:08:16.476 --> 0:08:20.116 we're solving problems. But then there's emotional conversations where I 0:08:20.116 --> 0:08:22.036 tell you what I'm feeling, and I don't want you 0:08:22.076 --> 0:08:24.396 to solve my feelings. I want you to empathize, right, 0:08:24.436 --> 0:08:27.196 I want you to relate. And then there's social conversations, 0:08:27.196 --> 0:08:29.236 which is about how we relate to each other in society, 0:08:29.396 --> 0:08:32.396 the identities that are important to us. And what we 0:08:32.516 --> 0:08:35.956 know is that those three main kinds of conversations they 0:08:36.036 --> 0:08:39.276 use very different parts of our brains. And so that 0:08:40.116 --> 0:08:43.196 neural and train that I discussed that simultaneity is very 0:08:43.236 --> 0:08:45.356 hard to accomplish. And so what's important is what's known 0:08:45.396 --> 0:08:49.156 as the matching principle that successful communication requires having the 0:08:49.236 --> 0:08:52.596 same kind of conversation at the same moment, and that 0:08:52.636 --> 0:08:54.556 doesn't mean we're on train tracks. So we got to 0:08:54.556 --> 0:08:57.956 stay on that. Right every discussion. We might start emotional 0:08:57.996 --> 0:09:00.036 and then move to practical, and then go back to emotional, 0:09:00.036 --> 0:09:02.756 and then go to social But as long as we're 0:09:02.796 --> 0:09:06.876 moving together, then we're going to feel connected to each other, 0:09:06.916 --> 0:09:09.116 We're going to understand each other much much better. 0:09:10.836 --> 0:09:13.436 So I'm imagining two people in conversation right now who 0:09:13.476 --> 0:09:17.076 are trying to match one another. I think what's important 0:09:17.116 --> 0:09:21.356 to emphasize is that as the conversation progresses, I, in turn, 0:09:21.476 --> 0:09:24.196 am going to try to find ways to match you. Absolutely, 0:09:24.236 --> 0:09:26.796 So it's a constant back and forth throughout the conversation 0:09:27.316 --> 0:09:30.756 where we're both taking opportunities to either invite them into 0:09:30.796 --> 0:09:35.916 our headspace or offering ourselves up to enter theirs. 0:09:36.116 --> 0:09:36.356 Yeah. 0:09:36.516 --> 0:09:38.596 Yeah, and you're right, And when you think about it, 0:09:38.596 --> 0:09:40.836 at the core of that is reciprocity. 0:09:40.236 --> 0:09:41.236 Right, Yes, exactly. 0:09:41.356 --> 0:09:44.436 A good conversation is back and forth. Yes, a great 0:09:44.436 --> 0:09:46.636 conversation If you read the transcript of it, and you 0:09:46.676 --> 0:09:48.396 know this because I'm sure you read transcripts of these 0:09:48.436 --> 0:09:50.836 all the time, it looks like a mess. A great 0:09:50.916 --> 0:09:54.316 conversation on paper looks like a total mess. It's people 0:09:54.356 --> 0:09:57.156 talking over each other, interrupting each other. You start an 0:09:57.196 --> 0:09:59.436 idea and then you get distracted and you say something else. 0:09:59.916 --> 0:10:03.036 It's not a speech. That's what makes the conversation great 0:10:03.236 --> 0:10:07.396 is this reciprocity where we're deciding together what we're going 0:10:07.436 --> 0:10:08.236 to talk about next. 0:10:08.316 --> 0:10:12.716 Yeah, you share a story about a doctor struggling to 0:10:12.756 --> 0:10:15.876 communicate with his patients, and I think that this really 0:10:15.916 --> 0:10:17.956 helps illustrate the benefits of matching. 0:10:18.116 --> 0:10:19.316 So this is one of my favorite stories. 0:10:19.356 --> 0:10:22.436 So there's a physician in New York City named doctor 0:10:22.436 --> 0:10:25.956 Bifar Adai who is probably one of the world's leading 0:10:26.156 --> 0:10:29.876 authorities on prostate tumors, how to remove prostate tumors, how 0:10:29.876 --> 0:10:32.316 to treat prostate tumors. And so every day a new 0:10:32.356 --> 0:10:35.276 patient comes into his office having just learned the prostate 0:10:35.316 --> 0:10:38.436 cancer and doctor d assumed that they were coming in 0:10:38.556 --> 0:10:40.196 asking for his advice, and so what he would do 0:10:40.236 --> 0:10:42.396 is he would tell them, Look, here's the thing about 0:10:42.396 --> 0:10:46.436 prostate cancer. It's very, very slow growing. In fact, we 0:10:46.476 --> 0:10:48.516 have this saying in medicine that for older patients, they'll 0:10:48.556 --> 0:10:50.716 die of old age before they die of prostate cancer. 0:10:51.276 --> 0:10:53.996 And the most certain way that I can cure you 0:10:54.116 --> 0:10:55.636 is I can go in and I can cut out 0:10:55.796 --> 0:10:57.796 the tumor. If I cut it out, the cancer's gone. 0:10:58.276 --> 0:11:00.396 The problem is that the prostate is located close to 0:11:00.436 --> 0:11:03.036 the nerves that control your nation and sexual function, and 0:11:03.076 --> 0:11:05.276 so for some percentage of patients there's going to be 0:11:05.316 --> 0:11:08.076 lifelong side effects even if the surgery is a success. 0:11:08.356 --> 0:11:11.596 So what he says is, here's my advice. Do nothing. 0:11:12.436 --> 0:11:13.596 Pretend you don't have cancer. 0:11:13.876 --> 0:11:16.116 Do this thing called active surveillance, where you take blood 0:11:16.116 --> 0:11:18.916 every six months and you do a biopsy every two years, 0:11:18.956 --> 0:11:21.156 and you go to the MRI if the biopsy shows anything. 0:11:21.396 --> 0:11:24.476 But otherwise, don't do any treatment. Don't do any radiation, 0:11:24.556 --> 0:11:27.956 no chemotherapy, don't do any surgery. And he would say 0:11:27.956 --> 0:11:29.756 this to these patients and they would listen and they'd 0:11:29.796 --> 0:11:31.356 say thanks, Doc, and then they'd go home and they 0:11:31.396 --> 0:11:33.236 talk it over with their spouse. Then they'd come in 0:11:33.276 --> 0:11:35.156 the next day and they'd say, you know, I thought 0:11:35.196 --> 0:11:37.276 about it last night, and I'd like you to cut 0:11:37.316 --> 0:11:39.196 me open as fast as humanly possible. 0:11:39.196 --> 0:11:41.036 Like you cut me open, take it. 0:11:40.996 --> 0:11:41.676 Out, get it out. 0:11:41.876 --> 0:11:43.236 So doctor yeah, yeah, exactly. 0:11:43.276 --> 0:11:45.396 And Doctor Die was bewildered because they're coming to him 0:11:45.396 --> 0:11:47.836 because he's an expert. He's giving them advice and they're 0:11:47.876 --> 0:11:50.796 ignoring his advice. But he realizes it's not that they're 0:11:50.836 --> 0:11:53.796 ignoring his advice, it's that they can't hear him, he's 0:11:53.836 --> 0:11:57.556 doing the conversation wrong. So he goes to these researchers 0:11:57.556 --> 0:12:00.516 at Harvard Business School. We specialize on what's known as 0:12:00.516 --> 0:12:04.436 everyday negotiations or quiet negotiations, the kind of negotiations we 0:12:04.476 --> 0:12:06.916 have with our spouses and our kids, where the goal 0:12:06.956 --> 0:12:09.076 isn't necessarily to win, the goal is to like actually 0:12:09.316 --> 0:12:13.516 understand what everyone wants. And they say to him, you're 0:12:13.556 --> 0:12:17.196 starting this conversation with your patients all wrong. You're assuming 0:12:17.396 --> 0:12:19.996 you know what they want. What you need to do 0:12:20.116 --> 0:12:21.796 is you need to ask them what's known as a 0:12:21.836 --> 0:12:24.516 deep question. You need to ask them a question that 0:12:24.716 --> 0:12:27.676 invites them to talk about their values and their beliefs 0:12:27.676 --> 0:12:31.076 and their experiences, the things that matter to them. So 0:12:31.116 --> 0:12:34.556 two weeks later, patient comes into doctor Die's office. Sixty 0:12:34.596 --> 0:12:37.276 two year old man, you just learned that he has 0:12:37.316 --> 0:12:40.876 prostate cancer. And instead of going into a song and 0:12:40.996 --> 0:12:43.836 dance about don't do anything. Here's what the studies show 0:12:44.476 --> 0:12:47.556 doctor and Die starts the conversation by saying, can you 0:12:47.596 --> 0:12:50.476 just tell me what does this cancer diagnosis mean to you? 0:12:52.396 --> 0:12:53.676 And the man kind of sits for a minute. 0:12:53.676 --> 0:12:54.996 He says, you know, when they told me I had 0:12:55.036 --> 0:12:57.596 cancer The first thing I thought about was my dad, 0:12:58.316 --> 0:13:00.156 because he died when I was seventeen years old, and 0:13:00.196 --> 0:13:01.876 I did not want to put my wife through that, 0:13:01.916 --> 0:13:03.356 and I do not want to put my kids through that. 0:13:04.156 --> 0:13:06.796 And at work, if they find out I have cancer 0:13:06.796 --> 0:13:08.556 at work, I'm only sixty two. I want to work 0:13:08.556 --> 0:13:11.556 for another eight twelve years. If they know that I've cancer, work, 0:13:11.676 --> 0:13:13.236 suddenly all the young people are gonna see me as 0:13:13.276 --> 0:13:15.716 the old sick guy is gonna change how they see me. 0:13:16.116 --> 0:13:19.476 And Doctor D realizes this man is then an emotional mindset. 0:13:19.476 --> 0:13:22.756 This man needs to have an emotional conversation. And so 0:13:22.796 --> 0:13:25.916 what Doctor D does is he matches him. Doctor Did says, 0:13:25.956 --> 0:13:28.596 you know, I know exactly how you feel because my 0:13:28.756 --> 0:13:32.076 dad got six seven years ago and he had the 0:13:32.076 --> 0:13:34.916 same concerns you did. But I got to tell you, 0:13:34.956 --> 0:13:38.236 like it ended up being less bad than he thought 0:13:38.276 --> 0:13:40.996 it was gonna be, and there were these like unexpected benefits, 0:13:41.036 --> 0:13:44.156 Like we had these conversations that we had never had before. 0:13:44.276 --> 0:13:47.236 My dad completely rethought like what was important to him, 0:13:47.236 --> 0:13:50.756 what he wanted to do with his retirement. Doctor Die 0:13:51.116 --> 0:13:54.796 matched and shared some emotional perspectives of his own. He 0:13:54.836 --> 0:13:59.796 reciprocated and then he says to the man, look, I'm wondering, 0:14:00.036 --> 0:14:01.636 can I can I tell you about a couple of 0:14:01.676 --> 0:14:03.676 treatment options that I think you should think about in 0:14:03.676 --> 0:14:06.596 this thing called active surveillance. In other words, he says, 0:14:06.996 --> 0:14:10.316 can I move from an emotional conversation into a practical conversation? 0:14:11.236 --> 0:14:13.516 And the man says, yeah, yeah, let's talk about that, 0:14:13.716 --> 0:14:15.596 and he goes over active surveillance. The man says that 0:14:15.596 --> 0:14:17.436 sounds like a great idea. I'm not going to do 0:14:17.476 --> 0:14:20.796 any treatment, never changes his mind. The number of patients 0:14:20.796 --> 0:14:25.036 who are listened to doctor Dye's advice went up astronomically 0:14:25.076 --> 0:14:28.116 after this one little change, which is starting the interview 0:14:28.556 --> 0:14:32.276 by asking the person a question rather than assuming he. 0:14:32.276 --> 0:14:32.996 Knew what they wanted. 0:14:34.156 --> 0:14:37.196 Yeah, you're teaching me in this moment that when it 0:14:37.236 --> 0:14:39.716 comes to thinking about this body of work, I was 0:14:39.756 --> 0:14:43.076 approaching this conversation today thinking about it through the lens 0:14:43.116 --> 0:14:46.276 of connection, but you're now opening my eyes to see 0:14:46.276 --> 0:14:49.116 it through the lens of influence. Right, you can't just 0:14:49.236 --> 0:14:53.236 bulldoze your way past the other person's intention because they're 0:14:53.276 --> 0:14:55.676 building up a wall and whatever you share with them 0:14:55.716 --> 0:14:58.316 will just be inaccessible to them. So only in breaking 0:14:58.356 --> 0:15:01.516 down that wall. Do you even penetrate enough such that 0:15:01.956 --> 0:15:04.676 whatever messages you're trying to communicate even have a chance 0:15:04.716 --> 0:15:05.676 of being registered. 0:15:06.196 --> 0:15:07.196 I think that's exactly right. 0:15:07.196 --> 0:15:09.116 And it's funny that you use this word influence because 0:15:09.116 --> 0:15:12.676 because we tend to sort of look down our nose 0:15:12.716 --> 0:15:13.356 at influence. 0:15:13.436 --> 0:15:15.916 Right, he's trying to influence me. He's an influencer. 0:15:17.116 --> 0:15:18.876 But when you think about it, a lot of our 0:15:18.876 --> 0:15:21.796 communication is influence. It's soft influence. If I tell you 0:15:21.836 --> 0:15:25.116 a joke, I'm trying to influence you to see something 0:15:25.156 --> 0:15:27.676 as funny that I see as funny. If I tell 0:15:27.716 --> 0:15:29.676 you that I'm excited, like I want to really want 0:15:29.716 --> 0:15:30.916 to go see that movie, don't you want to see 0:15:30.956 --> 0:15:33.356 it too, I'm trying to influence you to see the 0:15:33.356 --> 0:15:36.676 world that what I do. So communication and influence are 0:15:36.676 --> 0:15:39.396 tied up together. But influence doesn't mean I'm trying to 0:15:39.436 --> 0:15:42.796 manipulate you. Influence means I'm trying to share with you. 0:15:43.196 --> 0:15:45.516 I think the point you're making is really critical. We're 0:15:45.516 --> 0:15:48.516 doing ourselves a favor by allowing someone to ask those 0:15:48.516 --> 0:15:51.116 deep questions of us and vice versa, because we're just 0:15:51.276 --> 0:15:54.156 we're opening up the gates so that new information can 0:15:54.156 --> 0:15:56.596 come in and then we decide on our own terms, right, 0:15:56.956 --> 0:15:59.636 whether or not we are influenced, but we're at least 0:15:59.676 --> 0:16:01.156 giving that information a chance. 0:16:01.956 --> 0:16:04.316 That's exactly right. And it gets to this question of 0:16:04.316 --> 0:16:06.796 what is actually the goal of a conversation, right, What 0:16:06.876 --> 0:16:12.036 is the goal of communication? And one way of thinking 0:16:12.036 --> 0:16:14.276 about it is, my goal is to convince you that 0:16:14.356 --> 0:16:16.596 I'm right and you're wrong, Or my goal is to 0:16:16.676 --> 0:16:19.276 convince you that I'm smart. My goal is to convince 0:16:19.316 --> 0:16:21.676 you should like me. Right, none of those are the 0:16:21.716 --> 0:16:24.916 goals of conversation or communication. The goal of a conversation 0:16:26.076 --> 0:16:27.676 is to speak in such a way that the other 0:16:27.716 --> 0:16:30.636 person can understand you, and to listen in such a 0:16:30.676 --> 0:16:34.436 way that you can understand them. If you both understand 0:16:34.436 --> 0:16:37.716 each other, the conversation is a success. Now, you might 0:16:37.796 --> 0:16:40.476 walk away not liking this person. You might walk away 0:16:41.076 --> 0:16:42.756 thinking they're an idiot or disagreeing with. 0:16:42.676 --> 0:16:45.236 Them, or that their views are reprehensible. 0:16:45.516 --> 0:16:50.116 Right exactly, and yet if you understand how they see 0:16:50.156 --> 0:16:52.276 the world and they understand how you see the world, 0:16:52.436 --> 0:16:55.516 then that conversation has been a success. And I guarantee you, 0:16:55.916 --> 0:16:59.076 even if you do disagree with the person you feel 0:16:59.076 --> 0:17:03.356 more connected to them. 0:17:03.476 --> 0:17:05.676 We'll be back in a moment with a slight change 0:17:05.716 --> 0:17:22.556 of plans. If we want to be better communicators, Charles says, 0:17:22.596 --> 0:17:25.916 we need to ask deep questions. So I asked him 0:17:26.076 --> 0:17:27.636 how we can start practicing this. 0:17:28.356 --> 0:17:29.556 It's the easiest thing on earth. 0:17:29.596 --> 0:17:32.036 Instead of asking someone about the facts of their life, 0:17:32.196 --> 0:17:33.356 ask them how they feel. 0:17:33.156 --> 0:17:33.916 About their life. 0:17:34.316 --> 0:17:35.676 So if I meet you and I know that you're 0:17:35.716 --> 0:17:38.036 a doctor, instead of saying, oh, what hospital do you 0:17:38.076 --> 0:17:40.756 work at, which is a fact, I ask you, Oh, 0:17:40.796 --> 0:17:42.396 what meets you decide to go to medical school? 0:17:43.276 --> 0:17:43.876 Right now? 0:17:43.916 --> 0:17:46.156 What I'm doing is I'm asking you about your values, 0:17:46.236 --> 0:17:48.276 Like what is it that led you to this career? 0:17:48.476 --> 0:17:49.916 Oh? What do you like about? What do you like 0:17:50.116 --> 0:17:51.116 about being a doctor? Oh? 0:17:51.156 --> 0:17:52.996 You live in the heights. That's interesting. I live in 0:17:52.996 --> 0:17:55.236 the heights too. I'm just wondering, like, what is it 0:17:55.276 --> 0:17:56.436 about the heights that you like? 0:17:56.436 --> 0:17:56.516 Like? 0:17:57.236 --> 0:17:59.076 Is it a sense of community that you feel up there? 0:17:59.916 --> 0:18:03.396 Those are the easiest things to do, And we can convince. 0:18:03.036 --> 0:18:06.676 Ourselves that asking deep questions is hard because because we're 0:18:06.716 --> 0:18:09.996 worried about doing it, and yet we know is that 0:18:09.996 --> 0:18:12.716 communication as a skill, if you practice it, it becomes 0:18:12.756 --> 0:18:15.356 a habit very very quickly. And if you get into 0:18:15.396 --> 0:18:17.676 this habit of saying, like, I'm going to ask a 0:18:17.756 --> 0:18:20.076 question that invites the other person to tell me how 0:18:20.076 --> 0:18:23.476 they see themselves in the world, what they feel about something, 0:18:23.556 --> 0:18:25.756 what they think about it, rather than the facts about it, 0:18:26.276 --> 0:18:29.476 what you'll find is that it's overwhelmingly successful. 0:18:30.476 --> 0:18:33.036 You talk about it finding your book, which is that 0:18:33.436 --> 0:18:38.196 super communicators ask like way more questions in conversation than 0:18:38.236 --> 0:18:40.916 someone else. And I think you call them why questions, right, 0:18:40.956 --> 0:18:42.756 it's like, well, why did you go to medical school? 0:18:42.796 --> 0:18:45.116 Like why did you move to the neighborhood? Just tell 0:18:45.156 --> 0:18:46.876 me about that finding it's quite powerful. 0:18:47.476 --> 0:18:48.956 So there was a study that was done by a 0:18:48.996 --> 0:18:52.596 guy named Bo Sivers, who's a wonderful researcher, and he 0:18:52.836 --> 0:18:55.356 looked at groups and tried to figure out why some 0:18:55.396 --> 0:18:58.996 groups of strangers would become more closely bonded than others 0:18:59.276 --> 0:19:01.396 and would understand each other better. And what he found 0:19:01.436 --> 0:19:05.436 is that in those groups that became really successfully bonded, 0:19:05.756 --> 0:19:08.276 there was at least one person who was a super communicator. 0:19:08.876 --> 0:19:10.196 So one of the things that they did is that 0:19:10.236 --> 0:19:13.076 they asked, as you point out, ten to twenty times 0:19:13.116 --> 0:19:16.396 as many questions as the average person. Now, what's interesting, though, 0:19:16.516 --> 0:19:18.436 is that most people don't pick up on those questions 0:19:18.516 --> 0:19:21.076 because there are questions like, oh that's interesting, what happened next? 0:19:21.316 --> 0:19:22.956 Or oh oh what'd you think about that? 0:19:23.476 --> 0:19:25.076 Oh? Oh yeah, did you like that? 0:19:25.636 --> 0:19:29.036 There are questions that are invitations to participate in the conversation, 0:19:29.276 --> 0:19:31.916 But some of the questions are deep questions like how 0:19:31.956 --> 0:19:34.796 did you feel when you heard him say that? Right, 0:19:35.116 --> 0:19:37.396 I'm just wondering, like was that something you when you 0:19:37.436 --> 0:19:38.356 saw that scene? 0:19:38.756 --> 0:19:40.796 Did you like it? Or did you not like it? 0:19:41.356 --> 0:19:45.356