1 00:00:14,956 --> 00:00:15,436 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:30,716 --> 00:00:33,036 Speaker 2: When you and I have a real conversation, our bodies 3 00:00:33,036 --> 00:00:35,676 Speaker 2: and our brains change. Our heart rates starts to match 4 00:00:35,716 --> 00:00:37,716 Speaker 2: each other, our breath patterns starts to match each other, 5 00:00:37,796 --> 00:00:41,396 Speaker 2: our pupils start to dilate at similar rates, and more importantly, 6 00:00:41,436 --> 00:00:45,036 Speaker 2: the neural activity within our brains starts to look more 7 00:00:45,076 --> 00:00:49,076 Speaker 2: and more similar. This simultaneity, the similarity, is at the 8 00:00:49,116 --> 00:00:54,076 Speaker 2: core of communication and is what makes communication so powerful, 9 00:00:54,476 --> 00:00:56,676 Speaker 2: and our brains have evolved that when we achieve it, 10 00:00:56,796 --> 00:00:58,236 Speaker 2: we feel wonderful. 11 00:00:59,396 --> 00:01:02,236 Speaker 3: Journalist Charles Duhigg is interested in the science of what 12 00:01:02,356 --> 00:01:05,796 Speaker 3: makes for a good conversation, and one thing he's learned 13 00:01:05,876 --> 00:01:08,716 Speaker 3: is the importance of asking the right kind of question. 14 00:01:09,476 --> 00:01:11,996 Speaker 2: Instead of asking someone about the facts of their life, 15 00:01:12,196 --> 00:01:14,476 Speaker 2: ask them how they feel about their life. If you 16 00:01:14,476 --> 00:01:16,796 Speaker 2: get into this habit of saying like I'm going to 17 00:01:16,836 --> 00:01:19,236 Speaker 2: ask a question that invites the other person to tell 18 00:01:19,276 --> 00:01:21,676 Speaker 2: me how they see themselves in the world, what they 19 00:01:21,716 --> 00:01:24,316 Speaker 2: feel about something, what they think about it, rather than 20 00:01:24,356 --> 00:01:27,076 Speaker 2: the facts about it, what you'll find is that it's 21 00:01:27,196 --> 00:01:28,996 Speaker 2: overwhelmingly successful. 22 00:01:33,636 --> 00:01:36,916 Speaker 3: On today's show, how to Connect More Deeply with Others, 23 00:01:39,596 --> 00:01:42,436 Speaker 3: I'm Maya Shunker and this is a slight change of plans, 24 00:01:42,796 --> 00:01:44,956 Speaker 3: a show about who we are and who we become 25 00:01:45,276 --> 00:02:01,156 Speaker 3: in the face of a big change. Charles's latest book 26 00:02:01,276 --> 00:02:05,036 Speaker 3: is called Super Communicators, How to Unlock This Secret Language 27 00:02:05,076 --> 00:02:08,556 Speaker 3: of Connection. It's an exploration into how we can improve 28 00:02:08,636 --> 00:02:12,476 Speaker 3: our communit nication skills, and it was inspired by challenges 29 00:02:12,596 --> 00:02:14,516 Speaker 3: Charles was facing in his own life. 30 00:02:15,116 --> 00:02:17,876 Speaker 2: I found that at home I was having these conversations 31 00:02:17,876 --> 00:02:20,676 Speaker 2: with my wife and my kids that were not as 32 00:02:20,716 --> 00:02:22,876 Speaker 2: meaningful and as deep as I felt like they should be. 33 00:02:23,476 --> 00:02:25,356 Speaker 2: And then I felt like at work. I was a 34 00:02:25,396 --> 00:02:27,076 Speaker 2: reporter at the New York Times at that point, and 35 00:02:27,116 --> 00:02:29,836 Speaker 2: they made me a manager, and I figured I'd be 36 00:02:29,876 --> 00:02:32,156 Speaker 2: great at it, right, like I've had managers my whole life, 37 00:02:32,636 --> 00:02:35,716 Speaker 2: And I was fine that like the logistics and planning 38 00:02:35,756 --> 00:02:39,516 Speaker 2: and strategy, I was terrible at communication, like just just 39 00:02:39,556 --> 00:02:45,036 Speaker 2: shockingly bad and so unprepared and surprised by that. And 40 00:02:45,156 --> 00:02:47,796 Speaker 2: so I basically decided, like, I'm going to start calling 41 00:02:47,876 --> 00:02:50,076 Speaker 2: experts and ask them, if I'm a professional communicator as 42 00:02:50,076 --> 00:02:53,516 Speaker 2: a journalist, why am I so bad at this? And 43 00:02:53,836 --> 00:02:55,916 Speaker 2: what I learned when I called them was that they said, 44 00:02:56,636 --> 00:02:59,676 Speaker 2: we're actually living through this golden age of understanding communication 45 00:02:59,756 --> 00:03:02,556 Speaker 2: for really the first time. So we have answers to 46 00:03:02,596 --> 00:03:03,716 Speaker 2: give you that even just. 47 00:03:03,676 --> 00:03:05,996 Speaker 4: A decade ago, we might not have been able to provide. 48 00:03:06,716 --> 00:03:10,036 Speaker 3: What kind of signals were you receiving at home and 49 00:03:10,076 --> 00:03:12,756 Speaker 3: then at work that you were a crappy communicator? 50 00:03:13,156 --> 00:03:15,836 Speaker 2: Yeah, Like, you know, sometimes my wife would come home 51 00:03:15,876 --> 00:03:17,996 Speaker 2: and she'd have like a problem, like something that happened 52 00:03:17,996 --> 00:03:21,116 Speaker 2: at work that she was kind of upset about, and 53 00:03:21,236 --> 00:03:23,396 Speaker 2: what I would do is try and solve the problem 54 00:03:23,436 --> 00:03:26,116 Speaker 2: for her, and she would get frustrated because she didn't 55 00:03:26,116 --> 00:03:27,956 Speaker 2: want me to solve the problem right, She wanted me 56 00:03:28,036 --> 00:03:30,156 Speaker 2: just to listen and empathize. Or I might come home 57 00:03:30,196 --> 00:03:32,236 Speaker 2: from work and like, I've had a tough day and 58 00:03:32,236 --> 00:03:34,876 Speaker 2: talk about how my boss doesn't understand me, and she says, 59 00:03:34,876 --> 00:03:36,356 Speaker 2: why don't you take your boss out to lunch and 60 00:03:36,396 --> 00:03:37,956 Speaker 2: get to know each other better? And then then I 61 00:03:37,996 --> 00:03:39,836 Speaker 2: get upset and I say, you know, you're supposed to 62 00:03:39,876 --> 00:03:42,276 Speaker 2: be on my side, why aren't you supporting me? And 63 00:03:42,556 --> 00:03:44,876 Speaker 2: then at work, there were a number of times where 64 00:03:44,876 --> 00:03:48,036 Speaker 2: people would come to me with something and it was 65 00:03:48,116 --> 00:03:49,916 Speaker 2: clear that one or two things was happening. Either I 66 00:03:49,996 --> 00:03:52,676 Speaker 2: was not hearing them accurately, because they would walk away 67 00:03:52,716 --> 00:03:56,396 Speaker 2: upset or I was hearing them accurately and they didn't 68 00:03:56,476 --> 00:03:59,236 Speaker 2: understand that I was listening. I was doing a bad 69 00:03:59,356 --> 00:04:01,596 Speaker 2: job of proving to them that I'm listening to them. 70 00:04:02,556 --> 00:04:06,316 Speaker 3: You talked about the science evolving, which is obviously super exciting, 71 00:04:06,756 --> 00:04:09,596 Speaker 3: and you you know, your book is called super Kenmunicator. 72 00:04:09,636 --> 00:04:12,316 Speaker 3: So there's this concept and we'll get into the traits 73 00:04:12,356 --> 00:04:15,596 Speaker 3: of a super communicator later on, but I'd love to 74 00:04:15,676 --> 00:04:19,876 Speaker 3: hear when you're in conversation with a super communicator, how 75 00:04:19,956 --> 00:04:21,756 Speaker 3: is that person making you feel. 76 00:04:23,076 --> 00:04:24,036 Speaker 4: It's a great question. 77 00:04:24,116 --> 00:04:26,556 Speaker 2: It's a great question because you're focusing on not the 78 00:04:26,596 --> 00:04:28,596 Speaker 2: super communicator, but the other person, and that's what the 79 00:04:28,596 --> 00:04:31,996 Speaker 2: super communicator does too. So one of the things, and 80 00:04:32,116 --> 00:04:35,076 Speaker 2: let me preface this by saying, being a super communicator 81 00:04:35,116 --> 00:04:37,236 Speaker 2: is not that unique a skill. In fact, we all 82 00:04:37,316 --> 00:04:40,476 Speaker 2: can be super communicators. One of the big insights from 83 00:04:40,476 --> 00:04:43,796 Speaker 2: the research is that communication is a set of skills, 84 00:04:44,156 --> 00:04:46,676 Speaker 2: and if you learn those skills, you can connect with 85 00:04:46,716 --> 00:04:49,916 Speaker 2: almost anyone. What's happening. And this gets to how we 86 00:04:50,036 --> 00:04:54,196 Speaker 2: feel in a conversation with a supercommunicator. When you and 87 00:04:54,276 --> 00:04:57,156 Speaker 2: I have a real conversation, our bodies and our brains change. 88 00:04:57,516 --> 00:04:59,596 Speaker 2: Our heart rate starts to match each other, our breath 89 00:04:59,596 --> 00:05:01,836 Speaker 2: patterns starts to match each other, our pupils start to 90 00:05:01,836 --> 00:05:05,516 Speaker 2: dilate at similar rates, and more importantly, the neural activity 91 00:05:05,516 --> 00:05:08,956 Speaker 2: within our brains starts to look more and more similar. 92 00:05:09,636 --> 00:05:12,116 Speaker 2: And Urry Hassan at Princeton, who I know you're familiar with, 93 00:05:12,396 --> 00:05:15,436 Speaker 2: He's done a lot of this research looking at this 94 00:05:15,676 --> 00:05:19,476 Speaker 2: simultaneity that our thoughts look more and more alike. And 95 00:05:19,516 --> 00:05:21,636 Speaker 2: that makes sense when you think about it, because if 96 00:05:21,676 --> 00:05:23,916 Speaker 2: I tell you about a feeling that I'm having, you 97 00:05:23,956 --> 00:05:25,996 Speaker 2: actually experience that emotion a little bit, right. If I 98 00:05:25,996 --> 00:05:28,356 Speaker 2: tell you about an idea, you experience that idea. So 99 00:05:28,396 --> 00:05:31,756 Speaker 2: it makes sense that our brains would look similar. What 100 00:05:31,916 --> 00:05:36,356 Speaker 2: Urian others have found is that it's this simultaneity, the 101 00:05:36,436 --> 00:05:40,636 Speaker 2: similarity and what's known as neural entrainment is at the 102 00:05:40,676 --> 00:05:45,636 Speaker 2: core of communication and is what makes communication so powerful, 103 00:05:46,076 --> 00:05:48,236 Speaker 2: and our brains have evolved that when we achieve it, 104 00:05:48,356 --> 00:05:49,836 Speaker 2: we feel wonderful. 105 00:05:50,476 --> 00:05:51,756 Speaker 1: Wow, there's so much to unpack here. 106 00:05:51,836 --> 00:05:55,036 Speaker 3: Okay, So the first thing that I'm hearing is we 107 00:05:55,076 --> 00:05:58,956 Speaker 3: call it a conversation, but the ultimate reward is in 108 00:05:59,036 --> 00:06:01,756 Speaker 3: the feeling of connectedness, because that is the thing that 109 00:06:01,796 --> 00:06:04,676 Speaker 3: you're actually mapping too, right when it comes to that's 110 00:06:04,756 --> 00:06:05,596 Speaker 3: the size of the brain. 111 00:06:05,716 --> 00:06:08,356 Speaker 2: It's very good proving that you're listening, very you're doing 112 00:06:08,356 --> 00:06:11,996 Speaker 2: a great job. You are a supercommunicator. But that's exactly right. Now, 113 00:06:12,036 --> 00:06:13,716 Speaker 2: that doesn't mean we have to agree with each other. 114 00:06:14,276 --> 00:06:16,596 Speaker 2: But as long as the goal of our conversation is 115 00:06:16,636 --> 00:06:18,956 Speaker 2: to understand how the other person sees the world and 116 00:06:18,996 --> 00:06:20,556 Speaker 2: to speak in such a way that you understand how 117 00:06:20,596 --> 00:06:23,316 Speaker 2: I see the world, we will feel connected to each 118 00:06:23,356 --> 00:06:27,436 Speaker 2: other even if we disagree, and that connectedness is at 119 00:06:27,436 --> 00:06:29,676 Speaker 2: the core of why conversation is so important. 120 00:06:30,396 --> 00:06:33,396 Speaker 3: The other thing you mentioned is that anyone can become 121 00:06:33,476 --> 00:06:36,036 Speaker 3: a super communicator. I want to push back a little 122 00:06:36,036 --> 00:06:38,196 Speaker 3: bit on this, which is like, clearly we can't all 123 00:06:38,236 --> 00:06:41,356 Speaker 3: become the same level of super communicator. So in the 124 00:06:41,396 --> 00:06:45,236 Speaker 3: same way that I mean, no one's born a basketball player, 125 00:06:45,276 --> 00:06:48,236 Speaker 3: like no one's born a super communicator. People do have 126 00:06:48,356 --> 00:06:52,516 Speaker 3: varying levels of potential given their genetic makeup, right, I mean, 127 00:06:53,236 --> 00:06:56,836 Speaker 3: let's say proclivities towards introspection or emotional intelligence, like I 128 00:06:56,876 --> 00:06:58,996 Speaker 3: just have to believe that those would be correlated with 129 00:06:59,356 --> 00:07:01,076 Speaker 3: better communicative skills. 130 00:07:01,516 --> 00:07:02,516 Speaker 4: So you're exactly right. 131 00:07:02,556 --> 00:07:06,796 Speaker 2: There are some people for whom this is more intuitive. 132 00:07:07,076 --> 00:07:10,116 Speaker 2: And we should make one observation, which is that there 133 00:07:10,156 --> 00:07:12,716 Speaker 2: seems to be some research suggesting that folks who are 134 00:07:12,876 --> 00:07:16,716 Speaker 2: on the autism spectrum, not the entire spectrum, but on 135 00:07:16,876 --> 00:07:20,156 Speaker 2: part of the spectrum, that they do have a cognitive 136 00:07:20,236 --> 00:07:23,876 Speaker 2: challenge around communicating with other folks. You're exactly right. Not 137 00:07:23,916 --> 00:07:27,636 Speaker 2: all of us can become NBA players, but we can 138 00:07:27,756 --> 00:07:30,116 Speaker 2: all learn to play a decent game of basketball. 139 00:07:31,036 --> 00:07:33,396 Speaker 3: So you say, Charles, that one of the main reasons 140 00:07:33,396 --> 00:07:37,236 Speaker 3: that we struggle to communicate effectively is that each person 141 00:07:38,036 --> 00:07:40,916 Speaker 3: is often entering a discussion with a different goal in mind, 142 00:07:40,996 --> 00:07:44,716 Speaker 3: and that there's actually distinct kinds of conversations that are 143 00:07:44,756 --> 00:07:47,996 Speaker 3: happening within any given discussion. So can you walk me 144 00:07:48,076 --> 00:07:52,476 Speaker 3: through the three different types of conversations we might have. 145 00:07:52,796 --> 00:07:53,396 Speaker 4: Absolutely? 146 00:07:53,436 --> 00:07:55,116 Speaker 2: Absolutely, And this is one of the big findings of 147 00:07:55,116 --> 00:07:57,836 Speaker 2: the last decade is that when we have a discussion, 148 00:07:57,916 --> 00:08:00,436 Speaker 2: we tend to assume it's about one thing, right, and 149 00:08:00,476 --> 00:08:02,476 Speaker 2: we tend to assume that it's the goal that I 150 00:08:02,516 --> 00:08:04,316 Speaker 2: have in mind, and you think it's the goal you 151 00:08:04,316 --> 00:08:08,316 Speaker 2: have in mind. Inside every discussion is multiple kinds of conversations, 152 00:08:09,116 --> 00:08:11,556 Speaker 2: different kinds of conversations. They use different parts of our brains, 153 00:08:11,596 --> 00:08:13,396 Speaker 2: and they tend to fall into one of three buckets. 154 00:08:13,596 --> 00:08:16,476 Speaker 2: There's these practical conversations where we're making plans together or 155 00:08:16,476 --> 00:08:20,116 Speaker 2: we're solving problems. But then there's emotional conversations where I 156 00:08:20,116 --> 00:08:22,036 Speaker 2: tell you what I'm feeling, and I don't want you 157 00:08:22,076 --> 00:08:24,396 Speaker 2: to solve my feelings. I want you to empathize, right, 158 00:08:24,436 --> 00:08:27,196 Speaker 2: I want you to relate. And then there's social conversations, 159 00:08:27,196 --> 00:08:29,236 Speaker 2: which is about how we relate to each other in society, 160 00:08:29,396 --> 00:08:32,396 Speaker 2: the identities that are important to us. And what we 161 00:08:32,516 --> 00:08:35,956 Speaker 2: know is that those three main kinds of conversations they 162 00:08:36,036 --> 00:08:39,276 Speaker 2: use very different parts of our brains. And so that 163 00:08:40,116 --> 00:08:43,196 Speaker 2: neural and train that I discussed that simultaneity is very 164 00:08:43,236 --> 00:08:45,356 Speaker 2: hard to accomplish. And so what's important is what's known 165 00:08:45,396 --> 00:08:49,156 Speaker 2: as the matching principle that successful communication requires having the 166 00:08:49,236 --> 00:08:52,596 Speaker 2: same kind of conversation at the same moment, and that 167 00:08:52,636 --> 00:08:54,556 Speaker 2: doesn't mean we're on train tracks. So we got to 168 00:08:54,556 --> 00:08:57,956 Speaker 2: stay on that. Right every discussion. We might start emotional 169 00:08:57,996 --> 00:09:00,036 Speaker 2: and then move to practical, and then go back to emotional, 170 00:09:00,036 --> 00:09:02,756 Speaker 2: and then go to social But as long as we're 171 00:09:02,796 --> 00:09:06,876 Speaker 2: moving together, then we're going to feel connected to each other, 172 00:09:06,916 --> 00:09:09,116 Speaker 2: We're going to understand each other much much better. 173 00:09:10,836 --> 00:09:13,436 Speaker 3: So I'm imagining two people in conversation right now who 174 00:09:13,476 --> 00:09:17,076 Speaker 3: are trying to match one another. I think what's important 175 00:09:17,116 --> 00:09:21,356 Speaker 3: to emphasize is that as the conversation progresses, I, in turn, 176 00:09:21,476 --> 00:09:24,196 Speaker 3: am going to try to find ways to match you. Absolutely, 177 00:09:24,236 --> 00:09:26,796 Speaker 3: So it's a constant back and forth throughout the conversation 178 00:09:27,316 --> 00:09:30,756 Speaker 3: where we're both taking opportunities to either invite them into 179 00:09:30,796 --> 00:09:35,916 Speaker 3: our headspace or offering ourselves up to enter theirs. 180 00:09:36,116 --> 00:09:36,356 Speaker 1: Yeah. 181 00:09:36,516 --> 00:09:38,596 Speaker 2: Yeah, and you're right, And when you think about it, 182 00:09:38,596 --> 00:09:40,836 Speaker 2: at the core of that is reciprocity. 183 00:09:40,236 --> 00:09:41,236 Speaker 1: Right, Yes, exactly. 184 00:09:41,356 --> 00:09:44,436 Speaker 2: A good conversation is back and forth. Yes, a great 185 00:09:44,436 --> 00:09:46,636 Speaker 2: conversation If you read the transcript of it, and you 186 00:09:46,676 --> 00:09:48,396 Speaker 2: know this because I'm sure you read transcripts of these 187 00:09:48,436 --> 00:09:50,836 Speaker 2: all the time, it looks like a mess. A great 188 00:09:50,916 --> 00:09:54,316 Speaker 2: conversation on paper looks like a total mess. It's people 189 00:09:54,356 --> 00:09:57,156 Speaker 2: talking over each other, interrupting each other. You start an 190 00:09:57,196 --> 00:09:59,436 Speaker 2: idea and then you get distracted and you say something else. 191 00:09:59,916 --> 00:10:03,036 Speaker 2: It's not a speech. That's what makes the conversation great 192 00:10:03,236 --> 00:10:07,396 Speaker 2: is this reciprocity where we're deciding together what we're going 193 00:10:07,436 --> 00:10:08,236 Speaker 2: to talk about next. 194 00:10:08,316 --> 00:10:12,716 Speaker 3: Yeah, you share a story about a doctor struggling to 195 00:10:12,756 --> 00:10:15,876 Speaker 3: communicate with his patients, and I think that this really 196 00:10:15,916 --> 00:10:17,956 Speaker 3: helps illustrate the benefits of matching. 197 00:10:18,116 --> 00:10:19,316 Speaker 4: So this is one of my favorite stories. 198 00:10:19,356 --> 00:10:22,436 Speaker 2: So there's a physician in New York City named doctor 199 00:10:22,436 --> 00:10:25,956 Speaker 2: Bifar Adai who is probably one of the world's leading 200 00:10:26,156 --> 00:10:29,876 Speaker 2: authorities on prostate tumors, how to remove prostate tumors, how 201 00:10:29,876 --> 00:10:32,316 Speaker 2: to treat prostate tumors. And so every day a new 202 00:10:32,356 --> 00:10:35,276 Speaker 2: patient comes into his office having just learned the prostate 203 00:10:35,316 --> 00:10:38,436 Speaker 2: cancer and doctor d assumed that they were coming in 204 00:10:38,556 --> 00:10:40,196 Speaker 2: asking for his advice, and so what he would do 205 00:10:40,236 --> 00:10:42,396 Speaker 2: is he would tell them, Look, here's the thing about 206 00:10:42,396 --> 00:10:46,436 Speaker 2: prostate cancer. It's very, very slow growing. In fact, we 207 00:10:46,476 --> 00:10:48,516 Speaker 2: have this saying in medicine that for older patients, they'll 208 00:10:48,556 --> 00:10:50,716 Speaker 2: die of old age before they die of prostate cancer. 209 00:10:51,276 --> 00:10:53,996 Speaker 2: And the most certain way that I can cure you 210 00:10:54,116 --> 00:10:55,636 Speaker 2: is I can go in and I can cut out 211 00:10:55,796 --> 00:10:57,796 Speaker 2: the tumor. If I cut it out, the cancer's gone. 212 00:10:58,276 --> 00:11:00,396 Speaker 2: The problem is that the prostate is located close to 213 00:11:00,436 --> 00:11:03,036 Speaker 2: the nerves that control your nation and sexual function, and 214 00:11:03,076 --> 00:11:05,276 Speaker 2: so for some percentage of patients there's going to be 215 00:11:05,316 --> 00:11:08,076 Speaker 2: lifelong side effects even if the surgery is a success. 216 00:11:08,356 --> 00:11:11,596 Speaker 4: So what he says is, here's my advice. Do nothing. 217 00:11:12,436 --> 00:11:13,596 Speaker 4: Pretend you don't have cancer. 218 00:11:13,876 --> 00:11:16,116 Speaker 2: Do this thing called active surveillance, where you take blood 219 00:11:16,116 --> 00:11:18,916 Speaker 2: every six months and you do a biopsy every two years, 220 00:11:18,956 --> 00:11:21,156 Speaker 2: and you go to the MRI if the biopsy shows anything. 221 00:11:21,396 --> 00:11:24,476 Speaker 2: But otherwise, don't do any treatment. Don't do any radiation, 222 00:11:24,556 --> 00:11:27,956 Speaker 2: no chemotherapy, don't do any surgery. And he would say 223 00:11:27,956 --> 00:11:29,756 Speaker 2: this to these patients and they would listen and they'd 224 00:11:29,796 --> 00:11:31,356 Speaker 2: say thanks, Doc, and then they'd go home and they 225 00:11:31,396 --> 00:11:33,236 Speaker 2: talk it over with their spouse. Then they'd come in 226 00:11:33,276 --> 00:11:35,156 Speaker 2: the next day and they'd say, you know, I thought 227 00:11:35,196 --> 00:11:37,276 Speaker 2: about it last night, and I'd like you to cut 228 00:11:37,316 --> 00:11:39,196 Speaker 2: me open as fast as humanly possible. 229 00:11:39,196 --> 00:11:41,036 Speaker 4: Like you cut me open, take it. 230 00:11:40,996 --> 00:11:41,676 Speaker 1: Out, get it out. 231 00:11:41,876 --> 00:11:43,236 Speaker 4: So doctor yeah, yeah, exactly. 232 00:11:43,276 --> 00:11:45,396 Speaker 2: And Doctor Die was bewildered because they're coming to him 233 00:11:45,396 --> 00:11:47,836 Speaker 2: because he's an expert. He's giving them advice and they're 234 00:11:47,876 --> 00:11:50,796 Speaker 2: ignoring his advice. But he realizes it's not that they're 235 00:11:50,836 --> 00:11:53,796 Speaker 2: ignoring his advice, it's that they can't hear him, he's 236 00:11:53,836 --> 00:11:57,556 Speaker 2: doing the conversation wrong. So he goes to these researchers 237 00:11:57,556 --> 00:12:00,516 Speaker 2: at Harvard Business School. We specialize on what's known as 238 00:12:00,516 --> 00:12:04,436 Speaker 2: everyday negotiations or quiet negotiations, the kind of negotiations we 239 00:12:04,476 --> 00:12:06,916 Speaker 2: have with our spouses and our kids, where the goal 240 00:12:06,956 --> 00:12:09,076 Speaker 2: isn't necessarily to win, the goal is to like actually 241 00:12:09,316 --> 00:12:13,516 Speaker 2: understand what everyone wants. And they say to him, you're 242 00:12:13,556 --> 00:12:17,196 Speaker 2: starting this conversation with your patients all wrong. You're assuming 243 00:12:17,396 --> 00:12:19,996 Speaker 2: you know what they want. What you need to do 244 00:12:20,116 --> 00:12:21,796 Speaker 2: is you need to ask them what's known as a 245 00:12:21,836 --> 00:12:24,516 Speaker 2: deep question. You need to ask them a question that 246 00:12:24,716 --> 00:12:27,676 Speaker 2: invites them to talk about their values and their beliefs 247 00:12:27,676 --> 00:12:31,076 Speaker 2: and their experiences, the things that matter to them. So 248 00:12:31,116 --> 00:12:34,556 Speaker 2: two weeks later, patient comes into doctor Die's office. Sixty 249 00:12:34,596 --> 00:12:37,276 Speaker 2: two year old man, you just learned that he has 250 00:12:37,316 --> 00:12:40,876 Speaker 2: prostate cancer. And instead of going into a song and 251 00:12:40,996 --> 00:12:43,836 Speaker 2: dance about don't do anything. Here's what the studies show 252 00:12:44,476 --> 00:12:47,556 Speaker 2: doctor and Die starts the conversation by saying, can you 253 00:12:47,596 --> 00:12:50,476 Speaker 2: just tell me what does this cancer diagnosis mean to you? 254 00:12:52,396 --> 00:12:53,676 Speaker 4: And the man kind of sits for a minute. 255 00:12:53,676 --> 00:12:54,996 Speaker 2: He says, you know, when they told me I had 256 00:12:55,036 --> 00:12:57,596 Speaker 2: cancer The first thing I thought about was my dad, 257 00:12:58,316 --> 00:13:00,156 Speaker 2: because he died when I was seventeen years old, and 258 00:13:00,196 --> 00:13:01,876 Speaker 2: I did not want to put my wife through that, 259 00:13:01,916 --> 00:13:03,356 Speaker 2: and I do not want to put my kids through that. 260 00:13:04,156 --> 00:13:06,796 Speaker 2: And at work, if they find out I have cancer 261 00:13:06,796 --> 00:13:08,556 Speaker 2: at work, I'm only sixty two. I want to work 262 00:13:08,556 --> 00:13:11,556 Speaker 2: for another eight twelve years. If they know that I've cancer, work, 263 00:13:11,676 --> 00:13:13,236 Speaker 2: suddenly all the young people are gonna see me as 264 00:13:13,276 --> 00:13:15,716 Speaker 2: the old sick guy is gonna change how they see me. 265 00:13:16,116 --> 00:13:19,476 Speaker 2: And Doctor D realizes this man is then an emotional mindset. 266 00:13:19,476 --> 00:13:22,756 Speaker 2: This man needs to have an emotional conversation. And so 267 00:13:22,796 --> 00:13:25,916 Speaker 2: what Doctor D does is he matches him. Doctor Did says, 268 00:13:25,956 --> 00:13:28,596 Speaker 2: you know, I know exactly how you feel because my 269 00:13:28,756 --> 00:13:32,076 Speaker 2: dad got six seven years ago and he had the 270 00:13:32,076 --> 00:13:34,916 Speaker 2: same concerns you did. But I got to tell you, 271 00:13:34,956 --> 00:13:38,236 Speaker 2: like it ended up being less bad than he thought 272 00:13:38,276 --> 00:13:40,996 Speaker 2: it was gonna be, and there were these like unexpected benefits, 273 00:13:41,036 --> 00:13:44,156 Speaker 2: Like we had these conversations that we had never had before. 274 00:13:44,276 --> 00:13:47,236 Speaker 2: My dad completely rethought like what was important to him, 275 00:13:47,236 --> 00:13:50,756 Speaker 2: what he wanted to do with his retirement. Doctor Die 276 00:13:51,116 --> 00:13:54,796 Speaker 2: matched and shared some emotional perspectives of his own. He 277 00:13:54,836 --> 00:13:59,796 Speaker 2: reciprocated and then he says to the man, look, I'm wondering, 278 00:14:00,036 --> 00:14:01,636 Speaker 2: can I can I tell you about a couple of 279 00:14:01,676 --> 00:14:03,676 Speaker 2: treatment options that I think you should think about in 280 00:14:03,676 --> 00:14:06,596 Speaker 2: this thing called active surveillance. In other words, he says, 281 00:14:06,996 --> 00:14:10,316 Speaker 2: can I move from an emotional conversation into a practical conversation? 282 00:14:11,236 --> 00:14:13,516 Speaker 2: And the man says, yeah, yeah, let's talk about that, 283 00:14:13,716 --> 00:14:15,596 Speaker 2: and he goes over active surveillance. The man says that 284 00:14:15,596 --> 00:14:17,436 Speaker 2: sounds like a great idea. I'm not going to do 285 00:14:17,476 --> 00:14:20,796 Speaker 2: any treatment, never changes his mind. The number of patients 286 00:14:20,796 --> 00:14:25,036 Speaker 2: who are listened to doctor Dye's advice went up astronomically 287 00:14:25,076 --> 00:14:28,116 Speaker 2: after this one little change, which is starting the interview 288 00:14:28,556 --> 00:14:32,276 Speaker 2: by asking the person a question rather than assuming he. 289 00:14:32,276 --> 00:14:32,996 Speaker 4: Knew what they wanted. 290 00:14:34,156 --> 00:14:37,196 Speaker 3: Yeah, you're teaching me in this moment that when it 291 00:14:37,236 --> 00:14:39,716 Speaker 3: comes to thinking about this body of work, I was 292 00:14:39,756 --> 00:14:43,076 Speaker 3: approaching this conversation today thinking about it through the lens 293 00:14:43,116 --> 00:14:46,276 Speaker 3: of connection, but you're now opening my eyes to see 294 00:14:46,276 --> 00:14:49,116 Speaker 3: it through the lens of influence. Right, you can't just 295 00:14:49,236 --> 00:14:53,236 Speaker 3: bulldoze your way past the other person's intention because they're 296 00:14:53,276 --> 00:14:55,676 Speaker 3: building up a wall and whatever you share with them 297 00:14:55,716 --> 00:14:58,316 Speaker 3: will just be inaccessible to them. So only in breaking 298 00:14:58,356 --> 00:15:01,516 Speaker 3: down that wall. Do you even penetrate enough such that 299 00:15:01,956 --> 00:15:04,676 Speaker 3: whatever messages you're trying to communicate even have a chance 300 00:15:04,716 --> 00:15:05,676 Speaker 3: of being registered. 301 00:15:06,196 --> 00:15:07,196 Speaker 4: I think that's exactly right. 302 00:15:07,196 --> 00:15:09,116 Speaker 2: And it's funny that you use this word influence because 303 00:15:09,116 --> 00:15:12,676 Speaker 2: because we tend to sort of look down our nose 304 00:15:12,716 --> 00:15:13,356 Speaker 2: at influence. 305 00:15:13,436 --> 00:15:15,916 Speaker 4: Right, he's trying to influence me. He's an influencer. 306 00:15:17,116 --> 00:15:18,876 Speaker 2: But when you think about it, a lot of our 307 00:15:18,876 --> 00:15:21,796 Speaker 2: communication is influence. It's soft influence. If I tell you 308 00:15:21,836 --> 00:15:25,116 Speaker 2: a joke, I'm trying to influence you to see something 309 00:15:25,156 --> 00:15:27,676 Speaker 2: as funny that I see as funny. If I tell 310 00:15:27,716 --> 00:15:29,676 Speaker 2: you that I'm excited, like I want to really want 311 00:15:29,716 --> 00:15:30,916 Speaker 2: to go see that movie, don't you want to see 312 00:15:30,956 --> 00:15:33,356 Speaker 2: it too, I'm trying to influence you to see the 313 00:15:33,356 --> 00:15:36,676 Speaker 2: world that what I do. So communication and influence are 314 00:15:36,676 --> 00:15:39,396 Speaker 2: tied up together. But influence doesn't mean I'm trying to 315 00:15:39,436 --> 00:15:42,796 Speaker 2: manipulate you. Influence means I'm trying to share with you. 316 00:15:43,196 --> 00:15:45,516 Speaker 3: I think the point you're making is really critical. We're 317 00:15:45,516 --> 00:15:48,516 Speaker 3: doing ourselves a favor by allowing someone to ask those 318 00:15:48,516 --> 00:15:51,116 Speaker 3: deep questions of us and vice versa, because we're just 319 00:15:51,276 --> 00:15:54,156 Speaker 3: we're opening up the gates so that new information can 320 00:15:54,156 --> 00:15:56,596 Speaker 3: come in and then we decide on our own terms, right, 321 00:15:56,956 --> 00:15:59,636 Speaker 3: whether or not we are influenced, but we're at least 322 00:15:59,676 --> 00:16:01,156 Speaker 3: giving that information a chance. 323 00:16:01,956 --> 00:16:04,316 Speaker 2: That's exactly right. And it gets to this question of 324 00:16:04,316 --> 00:16:06,796 Speaker 2: what is actually the goal of a conversation, right, What 325 00:16:06,876 --> 00:16:12,036 Speaker 2: is the goal of communication? And one way of thinking 326 00:16:12,036 --> 00:16:14,276 Speaker 2: about it is, my goal is to convince you that 327 00:16:14,356 --> 00:16:16,596 Speaker 2: I'm right and you're wrong, Or my goal is to 328 00:16:16,676 --> 00:16:19,276 Speaker 2: convince you that I'm smart. My goal is to convince 329 00:16:19,316 --> 00:16:21,676 Speaker 2: you should like me. Right, none of those are the 330 00:16:21,716 --> 00:16:24,916 Speaker 2: goals of conversation or communication. The goal of a conversation 331 00:16:26,076 --> 00:16:27,676 Speaker 2: is to speak in such a way that the other 332 00:16:27,716 --> 00:16:30,636 Speaker 2: person can understand you, and to listen in such a 333 00:16:30,676 --> 00:16:34,436 Speaker 2: way that you can understand them. If you both understand 334 00:16:34,436 --> 00:16:37,716 Speaker 2: each other, the conversation is a success. Now, you might 335 00:16:37,796 --> 00:16:40,476 Speaker 2: walk away not liking this person. You might walk away 336 00:16:41,076 --> 00:16:42,756 Speaker 2: thinking they're an idiot or disagreeing with. 337 00:16:42,676 --> 00:16:45,236 Speaker 3: Them, or that their views are reprehensible. 338 00:16:45,516 --> 00:16:50,116 Speaker 2: Right exactly, and yet if you understand how they see 339 00:16:50,156 --> 00:16:52,276 Speaker 2: the world and they understand how you see the world, 340 00:16:52,436 --> 00:16:55,516 Speaker 2: then that conversation has been a success. And I guarantee you, 341 00:16:55,916 --> 00:16:59,076 Speaker 2: even if you do disagree with the person you feel 342 00:16:59,076 --> 00:17:03,356 Speaker 2: more connected to them. 343 00:17:03,476 --> 00:17:05,676 Speaker 3: We'll be back in a moment with a slight change 344 00:17:05,716 --> 00:17:22,556 Speaker 3: of plans. If we want to be better communicators, Charles says, 345 00:17:22,596 --> 00:17:25,916 Speaker 3: we need to ask deep questions. So I asked him 346 00:17:26,076 --> 00:17:27,636 Speaker 3: how we can start practicing this. 347 00:17:28,356 --> 00:17:29,556 Speaker 4: It's the easiest thing on earth. 348 00:17:29,596 --> 00:17:32,036 Speaker 2: Instead of asking someone about the facts of their life, 349 00:17:32,196 --> 00:17:33,356 Speaker 2: ask them how they feel. 350 00:17:33,156 --> 00:17:33,916 Speaker 4: About their life. 351 00:17:34,316 --> 00:17:35,676 Speaker 2: So if I meet you and I know that you're 352 00:17:35,716 --> 00:17:38,036 Speaker 2: a doctor, instead of saying, oh, what hospital do you 353 00:17:38,076 --> 00:17:40,756 Speaker 2: work at, which is a fact, I ask you, Oh, 354 00:17:40,796 --> 00:17:42,396 Speaker 2: what meets you decide to go to medical school? 355 00:17:43,276 --> 00:17:43,876 Speaker 4: Right now? 356 00:17:43,916 --> 00:17:46,156 Speaker 2: What I'm doing is I'm asking you about your values, 357 00:17:46,236 --> 00:17:48,276 Speaker 2: Like what is it that led you to this career? 358 00:17:48,476 --> 00:17:49,916 Speaker 4: Oh? What do you like about? What do you like 359 00:17:50,116 --> 00:17:51,116 Speaker 4: about being a doctor? Oh? 360 00:17:51,156 --> 00:17:52,996 Speaker 2: You live in the heights. That's interesting. I live in 361 00:17:52,996 --> 00:17:55,236 Speaker 2: the heights too. I'm just wondering, like, what is it 362 00:17:55,276 --> 00:17:56,436 Speaker 2: about the heights that you like? 363 00:17:56,436 --> 00:17:56,516 Speaker 3: Like? 364 00:17:57,236 --> 00:17:59,076 Speaker 4: Is it a sense of community that you feel up there? 365 00:17:59,916 --> 00:18:03,396 Speaker 4: Those are the easiest things to do, And we can convince. 366 00:18:03,036 --> 00:18:06,676 Speaker 2: Ourselves that asking deep questions is hard because because we're 367 00:18:06,716 --> 00:18:09,996 Speaker 2: worried about doing it, and yet we know is that 368 00:18:09,996 --> 00:18:12,716 Speaker 2: communication as a skill, if you practice it, it becomes 369 00:18:12,756 --> 00:18:15,356 Speaker 2: a habit very very quickly. And if you get into 370 00:18:15,396 --> 00:18:17,676 Speaker 2: this habit of saying, like, I'm going to ask a 371 00:18:17,756 --> 00:18:20,076 Speaker 2: question that invites the other person to tell me how 372 00:18:20,076 --> 00:18:23,476 Speaker 2: they see themselves in the world, what they feel about something, 373 00:18:23,556 --> 00:18:25,756 Speaker 2: what they think about it, rather than the facts about it, 374 00:18:26,276 --> 00:18:29,476 Speaker 2: what you'll find is that it's overwhelmingly successful. 375 00:18:30,476 --> 00:18:33,036 Speaker 3: You talk about it finding your book, which is that 376 00:18:33,436 --> 00:18:38,196 Speaker 3: super communicators ask like way more questions in conversation than 377 00:18:38,236 --> 00:18:40,916 Speaker 3: someone else. And I think you call them why questions, right, 378 00:18:40,956 --> 00:18:42,756 Speaker 3: it's like, well, why did you go to medical school? 379 00:18:42,796 --> 00:18:45,116 Speaker 3: Like why did you move to the neighborhood? Just tell 380 00:18:45,156 --> 00:18:46,876 Speaker 3: me about that finding it's quite powerful. 381 00:18:47,476 --> 00:18:48,956 Speaker 2: So there was a study that was done by a 382 00:18:48,996 --> 00:18:52,596 Speaker 2: guy named Bo Sivers, who's a wonderful researcher, and he 383 00:18:52,836 --> 00:18:55,356 Speaker 2: looked at groups and tried to figure out why some 384 00:18:55,396 --> 00:18:58,996 Speaker 2: groups of strangers would become more closely bonded than others 385 00:18:59,276 --> 00:19:01,396 Speaker 2: and would understand each other better. And what he found 386 00:19:01,436 --> 00:19:05,436 Speaker 2: is that in those groups that became really successfully bonded, 387 00:19:05,756 --> 00:19:08,276 Speaker 2: there was at least one person who was a super communicator. 388 00:19:08,876 --> 00:19:10,196 Speaker 2: So one of the things that they did is that 389 00:19:10,236 --> 00:19:13,076 Speaker 2: they asked, as you point out, ten to twenty times 390 00:19:13,116 --> 00:19:16,396 Speaker 2: as many questions as the average person. Now, what's interesting, though, 391 00:19:16,516 --> 00:19:18,436 Speaker 2: is that most people don't pick up on those questions 392 00:19:18,516 --> 00:19:21,076 Speaker 2: because there are questions like, oh that's interesting, what happened next? 393 00:19:21,316 --> 00:19:22,956 Speaker 2: Or oh oh what'd you think about that? 394 00:19:23,476 --> 00:19:25,076 Speaker 4: Oh? Oh yeah, did you like that? 395 00:19:25,636 --> 00:19:29,036 Speaker 2: There are questions that are invitations to participate in the conversation, 396 00:19:29,276 --> 00:19:31,916 Speaker 2: But some of the questions are deep questions like how 397 00:19:31,956 --> 00:19:34,796 Speaker 2: did you feel when you heard him say that? Right, 398 00:19:35,116 --> 00:19:37,396 Speaker 2: I'm just wondering, like was that something you when you 399 00:19:37,436 --> 00:19:38,356 Speaker 2: saw that scene? 400 00:19:38,756 --> 00:19:40,796 Speaker 4: Did you like it? Or did you not like it? 401 00:19:41,356 --> 00:19:45,356 Speaker 2: Those are deep questions that are basically saying, tell me 402 00:19:45,476 --> 00:19:49,036 Speaker 2: how you see the world. And again, it's not hard 403 00:19:49,076 --> 00:19:50,156 Speaker 2: to learn these skills. 404 00:19:51,436 --> 00:19:54,636 Speaker 3: So I think one challenge I face, and I'm curious 405 00:19:54,676 --> 00:19:56,396 Speaker 3: to know Charles, if you face this too, because you're 406 00:19:56,436 --> 00:20:01,316 Speaker 3: a journalist and I'm a podcaster, is like I I 407 00:20:01,356 --> 00:20:03,436 Speaker 3: always worry, Oh my god, am I coming on too 408 00:20:03,476 --> 00:20:06,236 Speaker 3: strong in conversation because I sit down, I'm like, all right, 409 00:20:06,676 --> 00:20:10,596 Speaker 3: to hell with the pleasantries, right to get straight to business, Like, 410 00:20:10,916 --> 00:20:12,636 Speaker 3: tell me about the hardest moment of your life. And 411 00:20:12,676 --> 00:20:14,956 Speaker 3: I'm so used to being licensed to do that in 412 00:20:14,956 --> 00:20:17,796 Speaker 3: an interview. Contexts that I sometis forget that over coffee 413 00:20:17,796 --> 00:20:19,956 Speaker 3: with a friend. I don't know, maybe a few warm 414 00:20:19,996 --> 00:20:22,476 Speaker 3: up questions would have been appropriate, right, I just want 415 00:20:22,476 --> 00:20:24,996 Speaker 3: to hear your reflections on my approach and whether I 416 00:20:24,996 --> 00:20:26,516 Speaker 3: need to kind of back off a little bit. 417 00:20:26,716 --> 00:20:27,996 Speaker 4: You know you're doing exactly right. 418 00:20:28,076 --> 00:20:31,956 Speaker 2: So one of my favorite experiments in this is that 419 00:20:31,996 --> 00:20:34,836 Speaker 2: a number of years ago, these two research psychologists named 420 00:20:34,916 --> 00:20:35,836 Speaker 2: Arthur and Elaine Aaron. 421 00:20:35,876 --> 00:20:37,476 Speaker 4: They were a husband and wife. 422 00:20:37,796 --> 00:20:39,396 Speaker 2: They wanted to try and figure out if there was 423 00:20:39,436 --> 00:20:41,876 Speaker 2: a method that they could use to make any two 424 00:20:41,956 --> 00:20:43,316 Speaker 2: strangers into friends. 425 00:20:44,236 --> 00:20:45,516 Speaker 4: And so they tried all these different things. 426 00:20:45,556 --> 00:20:47,556 Speaker 2: They would have people make puzzles together, or tell each 427 00:20:47,596 --> 00:20:51,316 Speaker 2: other stories, or they tried pairing people based on similar interests, 428 00:20:51,356 --> 00:20:53,156 Speaker 2: right like they went to the same church where they 429 00:20:53,156 --> 00:20:55,676 Speaker 2: were both smokers, or they both hate smokers. They had 430 00:20:55,756 --> 00:20:58,236 Speaker 2: some of them just tap their fingers together to see 431 00:20:58,236 --> 00:20:59,356 Speaker 2: if that made them feel closer. 432 00:20:59,956 --> 00:21:01,476 Speaker 4: None of the interventions really. 433 00:21:01,236 --> 00:21:04,196 Speaker 2: Worked, Like you basically just saw a completely sort of 434 00:21:04,236 --> 00:21:06,156 Speaker 2: normal distribution of some people liked each other and some 435 00:21:06,156 --> 00:21:09,316 Speaker 2: people didn't. And then they came up with this new idea. 436 00:21:09,716 --> 00:21:13,036 Speaker 2: They wrote a list of thirty six questions and they 437 00:21:13,036 --> 00:21:16,236 Speaker 2: were deep questions, and some of them started kind of easy. 438 00:21:16,236 --> 00:21:18,796 Speaker 2: The first question is if you could have a dinner 439 00:21:18,836 --> 00:21:22,396 Speaker 2: party with anyone from history, who would it be. Okay, 440 00:21:22,396 --> 00:21:25,156 Speaker 2: that's an easy question. But by question number six, it's 441 00:21:25,196 --> 00:21:28,636 Speaker 2: things like tell me about your mother, do you have 442 00:21:28,676 --> 00:21:31,156 Speaker 2: a suspicion about how you're going to die and when 443 00:21:31,156 --> 00:21:33,996 Speaker 2: it will happen? Question number thirty five of the thirty 444 00:21:34,036 --> 00:21:37,396 Speaker 2: six is when's the last time you cried in front 445 00:21:37,436 --> 00:21:40,676 Speaker 2: of another person? So they give that people these lists 446 00:21:40,676 --> 00:21:42,876 Speaker 2: of questions, they go back and forth, ask an answer, question, 447 00:21:42,956 --> 00:21:45,716 Speaker 2: take so just forty five minutes, and then they send 448 00:21:45,716 --> 00:21:48,716 Speaker 2: everyone home and everyone assumes that the experiment is over, 449 00:21:48,756 --> 00:21:52,236 Speaker 2: but actually the experiment is just beginning, because seven weeks 450 00:21:52,276 --> 00:21:54,636 Speaker 2: later they contact all of those people who had been 451 00:21:54,676 --> 00:21:57,196 Speaker 2: in those rooms two by two and they ask them, 452 00:21:57,356 --> 00:22:00,396 Speaker 2: I got a question for you. Since you did that experiment, 453 00:22:00,396 --> 00:22:02,276 Speaker 2: have you actually talked to that person that you did 454 00:22:02,276 --> 00:22:04,956 Speaker 2: it with? And people would say things like, yeah, you know, 455 00:22:05,116 --> 00:22:06,196 Speaker 2: I didn't catch his last name. 456 00:22:06,236 --> 00:22:09,116 Speaker 4: I know it was like John R. Something that started 457 00:22:09,196 --> 00:22:09,636 Speaker 4: with R. 458 00:22:09,956 --> 00:22:11,716 Speaker 2: So I got out the student directory and I called 459 00:22:11,756 --> 00:22:14,276 Speaker 2: every single John R in the student directory until I 460 00:22:14,316 --> 00:22:17,156 Speaker 2: found him or or you know, for professionals, they would 461 00:22:17,156 --> 00:22:19,076 Speaker 2: say things like, you know, I would just walk around 462 00:22:19,076 --> 00:22:21,956 Speaker 2: the park at lunch looking for for that person that 463 00:22:21,996 --> 00:22:25,036 Speaker 2: I talked to. One guy said, you know, it's funny 464 00:22:25,076 --> 00:22:26,796 Speaker 2: you asked, because like, we got together for a beer 465 00:22:26,876 --> 00:22:30,156 Speaker 2: about two weeks after the experiment, and then we saw 466 00:22:30,276 --> 00:22:33,236 Speaker 2: a movie a week later. And when they got married 467 00:22:33,356 --> 00:22:35,476 Speaker 2: a year after the experiment, they invited everyone in the 468 00:22:35,556 --> 00:22:36,916 Speaker 2: lab to come to the ceremony. 469 00:22:37,036 --> 00:22:37,436 Speaker 3: Wow. 470 00:22:37,756 --> 00:22:39,996 Speaker 2: So this has become known as the fast friends procedure. 471 00:22:40,076 --> 00:22:42,116 Speaker 2: Sometimes it's own as the thirty six questions that lead 472 00:22:42,156 --> 00:22:43,636 Speaker 2: to love, because that was a headline. 473 00:22:43,716 --> 00:22:45,356 Speaker 3: Yeah, I've seen it in like the New York Times, 474 00:22:45,596 --> 00:22:46,436 Speaker 3: Yes exactly. 475 00:22:46,956 --> 00:22:52,356 Speaker 2: And what what's interesting about this is two things. Number One, 476 00:22:53,276 --> 00:22:56,116 Speaker 2: we have discovered that you don't actually need those warm 477 00:22:56,196 --> 00:22:56,836 Speaker 2: up questions. 478 00:22:56,876 --> 00:22:59,276 Speaker 4: The assumption was that you need. 479 00:22:59,036 --> 00:23:01,916 Speaker 2: To move from less intimate to more intimate to get 480 00:23:01,956 --> 00:23:05,436 Speaker 2: people comfortable. But people can get deep immediately. But the 481 00:23:05,516 --> 00:23:08,196 Speaker 2: other important thing is that someone else tried to do 482 00:23:08,236 --> 00:23:10,876 Speaker 2: the experiment and slightly different way, same questions, list of 483 00:23:10,876 --> 00:23:13,356 Speaker 2: thirty six questions. What he did is he had one 484 00:23:13,396 --> 00:23:15,836 Speaker 2: person answer all thirty six questions to the other person, 485 00:23:16,636 --> 00:23:18,276 Speaker 2: and then the second person would take the list and 486 00:23:18,316 --> 00:23:22,396 Speaker 2: answer all thirty six questions. Afterwards, people never felt close 487 00:23:22,396 --> 00:23:25,516 Speaker 2: to each other. They said it was boring, it was awkward. 488 00:23:25,636 --> 00:23:26,996 Speaker 1: Yeah, you need that back and forth. 489 00:23:27,476 --> 00:23:28,636 Speaker 4: It's the reciprocess. 490 00:23:28,796 --> 00:23:33,836 Speaker 2: Yes, yes, it's the reciprocity of vulnerability and authenticity that 491 00:23:34,036 --> 00:23:35,756 Speaker 2: makes us feel close to someone else. 492 00:23:36,156 --> 00:23:37,036 Speaker 1: Yeah. 493 00:23:37,076 --> 00:23:40,076 Speaker 3: There's a confounding factor here, which is in an experimental setting, 494 00:23:40,476 --> 00:23:44,756 Speaker 3: you are explicitly licensed to go straight into those deep questions. 495 00:23:44,996 --> 00:23:47,796 Speaker 3: So what tactics can we use in real life with 496 00:23:47,876 --> 00:23:51,436 Speaker 3: our friends or someone we've just met to go straight 497 00:23:51,436 --> 00:23:52,596 Speaker 3: into those deep questions? 498 00:23:52,876 --> 00:23:53,036 Speaker 4: Oh? 499 00:23:53,076 --> 00:23:54,836 Speaker 2: Absolutely, So the number one thing you can do is 500 00:23:54,836 --> 00:23:56,636 Speaker 2: you can say I was listening to a podcast and 501 00:23:56,676 --> 00:23:58,316 Speaker 2: the person on the podcast told me I should ask 502 00:23:58,356 --> 00:24:01,236 Speaker 2: you this question, when's the last time you And now 503 00:24:02,076 --> 00:24:04,196 Speaker 2: if you don't want to say that, then that's. 504 00:24:04,036 --> 00:24:07,476 Speaker 4: Where we can do those preliminary questions. Oh, where'd you 505 00:24:07,516 --> 00:24:08,236 Speaker 4: go to high school? 506 00:24:08,636 --> 00:24:08,756 Speaker 2: Oh? 507 00:24:08,916 --> 00:24:09,716 Speaker 4: Went to valley? 508 00:24:10,276 --> 00:24:10,476 Speaker 3: Oh? 509 00:24:10,516 --> 00:24:11,916 Speaker 2: Man, what was it like to go to valley? Did 510 00:24:11,956 --> 00:24:15,276 Speaker 2: you like high school? It's as easy as just making 511 00:24:15,276 --> 00:24:18,716 Speaker 2: that pivot, and we tend to assume it's going to 512 00:24:18,756 --> 00:24:21,356 Speaker 2: be less well received. It's going to be harder to 513 00:24:21,396 --> 00:24:23,836 Speaker 2: do that we're going to feel awkward as we do it, 514 00:24:24,076 --> 00:24:27,916 Speaker 2: that it's not going to go well and our expectations 515 00:24:27,916 --> 00:24:29,076 Speaker 2: are completely wrong. 516 00:24:30,076 --> 00:24:33,116 Speaker 3: So we've talked through one big strategy, Charles, which is 517 00:24:33,116 --> 00:24:35,796 Speaker 3: the importance of matching, and you've given us the advice 518 00:24:35,836 --> 00:24:38,756 Speaker 3: that one way to do this is to ask deep 519 00:24:38,836 --> 00:24:41,596 Speaker 3: questions and of course to pick up on other cues. 520 00:24:41,716 --> 00:24:42,396 Speaker 1: Right, I mean, if you. 521 00:24:42,396 --> 00:24:45,556 Speaker 3: Laugh heartily and their face turned sour for probably that 522 00:24:45,636 --> 00:24:48,916 Speaker 3: wasn't you know you're not quite matchem Let's talk about 523 00:24:48,956 --> 00:24:52,516 Speaker 3: some of your other recommendations for how we can become 524 00:24:52,516 --> 00:24:53,476 Speaker 3: better communicators. 525 00:24:54,316 --> 00:24:55,996 Speaker 2: So what do we do once we know what kind 526 00:24:55,996 --> 00:24:58,356 Speaker 2: of conversation is happening and we've started to match each 527 00:24:58,396 --> 00:25:01,636 Speaker 2: other well, at that moment, it's really really important that 528 00:25:01,676 --> 00:25:04,516 Speaker 2: we listen to each other. What's interesting, though, is that 529 00:25:04,556 --> 00:25:08,796 Speaker 2: listening is not enough oftentimes, particularly in hard conversations, particularly 530 00:25:08,796 --> 00:25:11,596 Speaker 2: when there's conflict we're discussing, when we disagree with each other. 531 00:25:12,516 --> 00:25:14,236 Speaker 2: I need to not only listen to you, I need 532 00:25:14,276 --> 00:25:17,316 Speaker 2: to prove that I'm listening to you. So there's this 533 00:25:17,396 --> 00:25:19,796 Speaker 2: technique that they teach it in business schools. It's called 534 00:25:19,796 --> 00:25:22,676 Speaker 2: looping for understanding as three steps. Step one is that 535 00:25:22,716 --> 00:25:26,236 Speaker 2: you ask a question, preferably a deep question. Step two 536 00:25:26,436 --> 00:25:28,916 Speaker 2: is that you repeat back in your own words what 537 00:25:28,996 --> 00:25:31,636 Speaker 2: you heard the person say. And then step three, and 538 00:25:31,636 --> 00:25:33,956 Speaker 2: this is the one I always forget, ask if you 539 00:25:34,036 --> 00:25:36,916 Speaker 2: got it right? Because when you ask if you got 540 00:25:36,916 --> 00:25:39,676 Speaker 2: it right, what you're actually asking is can I have 541 00:25:39,756 --> 00:25:42,476 Speaker 2: your permission to acknowledge that I'm listening to you? 542 00:25:43,676 --> 00:25:45,356 Speaker 4: And again, because of how our brains. 543 00:25:45,116 --> 00:25:47,516 Speaker 2: Have evolved, because of the sociality that we've all sort 544 00:25:47,556 --> 00:25:51,556 Speaker 2: of developed, when we believe someone is listening to us, 545 00:25:52,396 --> 00:25:54,796 Speaker 2: we become much much more likely to listen to them 546 00:25:54,796 --> 00:26:00,156 Speaker 2: and return. It's a reciprocity that we almost can't deny ourselves. 547 00:26:00,236 --> 00:26:03,396 Speaker 2: We can't even fight it. So, like, let's say, you know, 548 00:26:03,556 --> 00:26:05,916 Speaker 2: so one of my younger kids, he wanted to like 549 00:26:06,036 --> 00:26:08,316 Speaker 2: hang out at his friend, spend the night at Jasper's house. 550 00:26:08,396 --> 00:26:10,636 Speaker 2: His friend Jasper, and I didn't want him to go 551 00:26:10,676 --> 00:26:11,876 Speaker 2: suspend the night at Jasper's house. 552 00:26:11,916 --> 00:26:12,916 Speaker 4: I wanted him to be home. 553 00:26:12,956 --> 00:26:15,916 Speaker 2: And so, but rather than have a fight, rather than 554 00:26:15,956 --> 00:26:17,436 Speaker 2: I have a conflict, what I did is I did 555 00:26:17,436 --> 00:26:19,156 Speaker 2: looping for understanding. So the first thing I said it 556 00:26:19,236 --> 00:26:21,156 Speaker 2: is I said, you know, I'm just wondering like, what 557 00:26:21,316 --> 00:26:24,996 Speaker 2: is it about Jasper that's important to you? And he said, oh, 558 00:26:25,036 --> 00:26:27,036 Speaker 2: you know, the thing about Jasper is that he's really 559 00:26:27,076 --> 00:26:30,916 Speaker 2: really brave. And I was like, he's brave, Like what 560 00:26:30,956 --> 00:26:33,516 Speaker 2: does that mean? Like what it seems like you admire him? 561 00:26:33,556 --> 00:26:37,436 Speaker 2: Like what do you mean he's brave? And he said, oh, 562 00:26:37,676 --> 00:26:39,876 Speaker 2: sometimes we'll get up on his roof with their bikes 563 00:26:39,916 --> 00:26:41,916 Speaker 2: and he'll ride his bike off the roof. And I 564 00:26:41,956 --> 00:26:45,596 Speaker 2: was like, that doesn't sound brave, but but I'm looping 565 00:26:45,636 --> 00:26:47,796 Speaker 2: for understanding. And so what I said is that what 566 00:26:47,836 --> 00:26:50,956 Speaker 2: I hear you saying is that Jasper. You like hanging 567 00:26:50,996 --> 00:26:54,356 Speaker 2: out with Jasper because because it seems like he can 568 00:26:54,396 --> 00:26:56,316 Speaker 2: do these things that are scary for you. And he 569 00:26:56,316 --> 00:26:58,516 Speaker 2: says yeah, yeah. And the other thing is he can 570 00:26:58,556 --> 00:27:02,716 Speaker 2: talk to girls. And then I was like, oh, Jasper 571 00:27:02,756 --> 00:27:06,156 Speaker 2: can talk to girls. Like that's what you mean when 572 00:27:06,156 --> 00:27:09,636 Speaker 2: you say that he's brave, is that he is willing 573 00:27:09,676 --> 00:27:11,756 Speaker 2: to do scary things, not just ride his bike off 574 00:27:11,756 --> 00:27:14,516 Speaker 2: the roof, but talk to girls and put himself out there. 575 00:27:14,636 --> 00:27:16,636 Speaker 2: And you want to be around that because you want 576 00:27:16,676 --> 00:27:19,836 Speaker 2: to get better at that. And he said yeah, And 577 00:27:19,876 --> 00:27:23,436 Speaker 2: I said, okay, I think I totally understand, and that 578 00:27:23,556 --> 00:27:26,196 Speaker 2: is a very important thing. Like, I totally understand why 579 00:27:26,236 --> 00:27:28,636 Speaker 2: you want that. Tonight'sund a good night for it. But 580 00:27:28,676 --> 00:27:31,516 Speaker 2: I promise you that sometime next week we will find 581 00:27:31,516 --> 00:27:34,396 Speaker 2: tonight when you can spend the night with Jasper and 582 00:27:34,436 --> 00:27:36,876 Speaker 2: you can sort of build that relationship. And he was like, Okay, 583 00:27:36,876 --> 00:27:37,316 Speaker 2: that's fine. 584 00:27:37,956 --> 00:27:38,156 Speaker 4: Right. 585 00:27:38,756 --> 00:27:40,236 Speaker 2: This could have been a fight, This could have been 586 00:27:40,316 --> 00:27:43,356 Speaker 2: some conflict. But instead by asking this deep question, by 587 00:27:43,396 --> 00:27:46,476 Speaker 2: repeating back and proving that I'm listening, by helping him 588 00:27:46,516 --> 00:27:48,356 Speaker 2: see his own words and a new light because I'm 589 00:27:48,356 --> 00:27:49,956 Speaker 2: repeating them, and then by asking him if I got 590 00:27:49,956 --> 00:27:53,796 Speaker 2: it right, it just resolved all of the conflicts completely. 591 00:27:53,956 --> 00:27:56,916 Speaker 1: You're a very disciplined parent to have done it in 592 00:27:56,956 --> 00:27:57,396 Speaker 1: that moment. 593 00:27:58,516 --> 00:27:59,596 Speaker 4: I screw up all the time. 594 00:27:59,716 --> 00:28:03,676 Speaker 3: Okay, but are you going to let him ride bikes 595 00:28:03,796 --> 00:28:06,876 Speaker 3: off the roof? Or can you just let Jasper teach 596 00:28:06,916 --> 00:28:08,716 Speaker 3: him about talking to girls? 597 00:28:08,756 --> 00:28:09,236 Speaker 4: Oh? 598 00:28:09,116 --> 00:28:12,236 Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, Now you are getting at the anxieties 599 00:28:12,276 --> 00:28:13,316 Speaker 2: I wake up with. 600 00:28:13,276 --> 00:28:15,676 Speaker 3: Every morning, Kang, you might want to address that piece 601 00:28:17,076 --> 00:28:17,516 Speaker 3: hang out. 602 00:28:17,476 --> 00:28:18,876 Speaker 4: To ride his bikes off the roof. 603 00:28:18,956 --> 00:28:24,276 Speaker 3: Okay, So how do these strategies apply when we're having 604 00:28:24,716 --> 00:28:29,116 Speaker 3: online conversations? I mean, obviously we're having I think I 605 00:28:29,116 --> 00:28:31,036 Speaker 3: don't know what the data says, but I'm having far 606 00:28:31,076 --> 00:28:33,996 Speaker 3: more online conversations in any given day that I'm having 607 00:28:34,076 --> 00:28:37,436 Speaker 3: actual in person conversations. So can I translate some of 608 00:28:37,476 --> 00:28:40,196 Speaker 3: this wisdom to the internets. 609 00:28:40,756 --> 00:28:43,436 Speaker 2: Yeah, So here's what we know about online conversations. First 610 00:28:43,436 --> 00:28:47,076 Speaker 2: of all, over index on politeness. Like there's been all 611 00:28:47,116 --> 00:28:49,036 Speaker 2: these studies that show when people are actually arguing with 612 00:28:49,076 --> 00:28:51,476 Speaker 2: each other, if just one person starts saying please and 613 00:28:51,556 --> 00:28:55,076 Speaker 2: thank you, all of a sudden, the temperature goes down significantly. 614 00:28:55,436 --> 00:29:00,676 Speaker 2: So over index on politeness, over index on explaining and acknowledging. 615 00:29:01,116 --> 00:29:02,876 Speaker 2: When you and I in are a conversation and I 616 00:29:02,916 --> 00:29:04,996 Speaker 2: say something, you nod your head, so I know that 617 00:29:05,036 --> 00:29:05,716 Speaker 2: you're listening to me. 618 00:29:05,756 --> 00:29:07,076 Speaker 4: I know that you're you're getting it. 619 00:29:07,396 --> 00:29:10,436 Speaker 2: But online you can't see someone nodding their head, So 620 00:29:10,556 --> 00:29:13,156 Speaker 2: you should over index on saying like. That's a good point, Jim, 621 00:29:13,596 --> 00:29:15,596 Speaker 2: what I hear you saying is x am, I getting 622 00:29:15,636 --> 00:29:19,596 Speaker 2: that right. That's a really good point. Don't criticize each 623 00:29:19,596 --> 00:29:22,356 Speaker 2: other publicly, and in fact, if you can avoid criticizing 624 00:29:22,396 --> 00:29:25,596 Speaker 2: each other in print, it's usually a better idea. Because 625 00:29:25,596 --> 00:29:29,516 Speaker 2: we tend not to hear the caveats that help soften that. 626 00:29:30,316 --> 00:29:33,476 Speaker 2: And then finally, the best thing that you can do 627 00:29:33,556 --> 00:29:38,996 Speaker 2: online is say, sometimes this conversation shouldn't be had online, 628 00:29:39,916 --> 00:29:43,356 Speaker 2: Like we all know when a conversation should move to 629 00:29:43,396 --> 00:29:44,116 Speaker 2: the telephone. 630 00:29:46,356 --> 00:29:48,356 Speaker 4: Yeah, and it's so much easier. 631 00:29:48,556 --> 00:29:51,836 Speaker 2: Somebody says something to you mean, and there's part of 632 00:29:51,876 --> 00:29:53,796 Speaker 2: your brain that's like I should call that person up 633 00:29:53,836 --> 00:29:55,956 Speaker 2: and I should like ask them like do they really 634 00:29:55,956 --> 00:29:57,916 Speaker 2: mean that? And let them know it kind of hurt me. 635 00:29:58,316 --> 00:30:00,156 Speaker 2: But instead of what we do is we're like, oh, yeah, 636 00:30:00,156 --> 00:30:02,996 Speaker 2: well you're a jerk too, right, and now it's escalating. 637 00:30:04,156 --> 00:30:07,836 Speaker 2: So the keys to online conversations are to over index 638 00:30:07,876 --> 00:30:09,916 Speaker 2: on the things that we know are important, and to 639 00:30:10,036 --> 00:30:14,396 Speaker 2: also acknowledge sometimes the conversations should move offline and to 640 00:30:14,476 --> 00:30:15,716 Speaker 2: respect that when you. 641 00:30:15,716 --> 00:30:16,876 Speaker 1: Feel it great. 642 00:30:17,916 --> 00:30:22,316 Speaker 3: What's your favorite testimonial or story from someone who applied 643 00:30:22,396 --> 00:30:26,556 Speaker 3: these principles and saw real life change. And maybe that's you, Like, 644 00:30:26,596 --> 00:30:29,756 Speaker 3: maybe you're the one who's had that it's kind of 645 00:30:29,756 --> 00:30:31,956 Speaker 3: transformative experience in their personal life. 646 00:30:32,036 --> 00:30:32,276 Speaker 4: Yeah. 647 00:30:32,276 --> 00:30:34,996 Speaker 2: No, I've definitely had transformative experiences. Although I will say 648 00:30:35,036 --> 00:30:38,556 Speaker 2: that it's not infrequent that my wife over the dinner 649 00:30:38,596 --> 00:30:41,636 Speaker 2: table when I'm like monologuing about like how the Dune 650 00:30:41,716 --> 00:30:43,996 Speaker 2: movie should have been better, She's like, She's like, you know, 651 00:30:43,996 --> 00:30:46,436 Speaker 2: there's this book about communication that you might think about 652 00:30:46,436 --> 00:30:49,996 Speaker 2: reading because you're not doing anything that it prescribes. But 653 00:30:50,036 --> 00:30:52,516 Speaker 2: I would say that that the most powerful ones for 654 00:30:52,596 --> 00:30:56,116 Speaker 2: me is I get emails from readers and they say 655 00:30:56,156 --> 00:31:00,436 Speaker 2: things like I've been avoiding a conversation for years with 656 00:31:00,556 --> 00:31:03,156 Speaker 2: my mom, or or there's this person at work that 657 00:31:03,236 --> 00:31:06,196 Speaker 2: I just cannot get along with. And I thought I 658 00:31:06,196 --> 00:31:08,276 Speaker 2: thought it was a personality problem. I thought that we 659 00:31:08,276 --> 00:31:10,516 Speaker 2: couldn't I thought that we couldn't connect, that like it 660 00:31:10,556 --> 00:31:11,636 Speaker 2: was impossible to connect. 661 00:31:11,876 --> 00:31:13,076 Speaker 4: And so I just decided to. 662 00:31:13,076 --> 00:31:16,196 Speaker 2: Like take one of your things and I went and 663 00:31:16,196 --> 00:31:19,996 Speaker 2: I asked them a deep question, and it changed everything. 664 00:31:20,516 --> 00:31:22,716 Speaker 2: Suddenly I understand them in a whole different way, and 665 00:31:22,756 --> 00:31:25,916 Speaker 2: they actually want to talk to me now. Or I've 666 00:31:25,916 --> 00:31:28,156 Speaker 2: been fighting with my mom and instead of fighting, I 667 00:31:28,236 --> 00:31:29,876 Speaker 2: just went and I said, like, tell me why this 668 00:31:29,916 --> 00:31:31,916 Speaker 2: is important to you, Like what does this mean to you? 669 00:31:32,116 --> 00:31:34,196 Speaker 2: And then I looped for understanding. I repeated it back 670 00:31:34,196 --> 00:31:35,796 Speaker 2: to her and I asked her if I got it right, 671 00:31:36,276 --> 00:31:38,676 Speaker 2: And suddenly it was like the angry air went out 672 00:31:38,676 --> 00:31:42,276 Speaker 2: of the room. Those emails are really meaningful because the 673 00:31:42,316 --> 00:31:45,516 Speaker 2: truth of the matter is that like it's awful to 674 00:31:45,596 --> 00:31:48,436 Speaker 2: avoid a conversation, it's awful to have your stomach up 675 00:31:48,476 --> 00:31:50,276 Speaker 2: in knots because you know you have to talk about 676 00:31:50,316 --> 00:31:51,636 Speaker 2: something and you don't want to talk about it and 677 00:31:51,636 --> 00:31:56,196 Speaker 2: you're really worried about it. And yet that conversation. You 678 00:31:56,236 --> 00:31:59,036 Speaker 2: will always feel better after that conversation than you did 679 00:31:59,116 --> 00:32:02,236 Speaker 2: before it, particularly if you know how to have it. 680 00:32:02,276 --> 00:32:03,956 Speaker 2: If you know it, just some simple skills to make 681 00:32:03,996 --> 00:32:04,356 Speaker 2: it better. 682 00:32:04,876 --> 00:32:06,476 Speaker 3: I mean, and sometimes they won't go well, but maybe 683 00:32:06,516 --> 00:32:08,516 Speaker 3: they go well the next time right or the time 684 00:32:08,556 --> 00:32:09,036 Speaker 3: after that. 685 00:32:09,396 --> 00:32:12,836 Speaker 2: And that's a really important point. Nobody is born as 686 00:32:12,836 --> 00:32:15,676 Speaker 2: super communicator. Nobody knows how to do this from birth. 687 00:32:16,076 --> 00:32:18,556 Speaker 2: The way we get better at it is by practicing it. 688 00:32:18,796 --> 00:32:20,596 Speaker 2: And just because you ask a deep question and it 689 00:32:20,596 --> 00:32:22,676 Speaker 2: doesn't go well and you have an awkward conversation, that 690 00:32:22,716 --> 00:32:25,636 Speaker 2: doesn't mean you're doing anything wrong. That means you're learning 691 00:32:25,676 --> 00:32:28,196 Speaker 2: how to do it, and it's going to become a habit. 692 00:32:28,236 --> 00:32:30,916 Speaker 2: It's going to get easier. But just stick with it 693 00:32:31,676 --> 00:32:33,756 Speaker 2: and eventually you'll be able to have the conversations you. 694 00:32:33,716 --> 00:32:37,036 Speaker 3: Want to have, Charles, You've given us so many powerful 695 00:32:37,076 --> 00:32:42,116 Speaker 3: strategies for improving our communication. Obviously, this takes a lot 696 00:32:42,156 --> 00:32:46,596 Speaker 3: of deliberate practice and effort. Right, you have to be experimental. 697 00:32:46,676 --> 00:32:48,596 Speaker 3: You have to take risks. You have to ask those 698 00:32:48,636 --> 00:32:51,156 Speaker 3: tough why questions when it feels really uncomfortable, and then 699 00:32:51,436 --> 00:32:53,796 Speaker 3: collect evidence over time that actually it wasn't as scary 700 00:32:53,796 --> 00:32:55,516 Speaker 3: as I thought, and oh it really paid off here. 701 00:32:55,556 --> 00:32:57,756 Speaker 3: I made better friends with this person than I thought. 702 00:32:59,436 --> 00:33:02,876 Speaker 3: Motivate us in this moment to really care about this pursuit, 703 00:33:02,916 --> 00:33:04,396 Speaker 3: to like really want to put in the effort. 704 00:33:05,476 --> 00:33:07,796 Speaker 2: In the epilogue of the book, I describe a little 705 00:33:07,796 --> 00:33:09,716 Speaker 2: bit the Harvard Study of Adult of that it's the 706 00:33:09,756 --> 00:33:12,676 Speaker 2: study that's for eighty years. They followed around thousands of 707 00:33:12,676 --> 00:33:15,476 Speaker 2: people to try and figure out what are the conditions 708 00:33:15,516 --> 00:33:19,916 Speaker 2: preconditions that make you happy and healthy and live longer 709 00:33:19,956 --> 00:33:23,396 Speaker 2: as you get older. And they had all these crazy 710 00:33:23,436 --> 00:33:26,156 Speaker 2: theories when the experiment started in the twenties and thirties, 711 00:33:26,236 --> 00:33:28,596 Speaker 2: like because it was at Harvard, they basically said, like, 712 00:33:28,596 --> 00:33:30,916 Speaker 2: if you're a Harvard Man, they're definitely going to be 713 00:33:30,916 --> 00:33:33,236 Speaker 2: happier as you get older. It turns out that's not true. 714 00:33:33,396 --> 00:33:35,396 Speaker 2: You know that you should get married, that you should 715 00:33:35,396 --> 00:33:37,596 Speaker 2: belong to a good church, that you should come from 716 00:33:37,596 --> 00:33:41,396 Speaker 2: a good family. Basically, the only thing that they've found 717 00:33:41,476 --> 00:33:44,916 Speaker 2: is that your happiness and your success, however you define 718 00:33:44,916 --> 00:33:48,036 Speaker 2: success and most importantly, your health, your longevity. At age 719 00:33:48,076 --> 00:33:52,076 Speaker 2: sixty five, the single greatest corel it is having at 720 00:33:52,156 --> 00:33:54,756 Speaker 2: least a handful of close relationships. At age forty five, 721 00:33:56,316 --> 00:33:59,996 Speaker 2: connecting with other people is the thing that makes us 722 00:34:00,036 --> 00:34:03,716 Speaker 2: healthier and happier and more successful. And the way we 723 00:34:03,756 --> 00:34:07,596 Speaker 2: connect with other people is through conversation, learning the skills 724 00:34:07,596 --> 00:34:10,236 Speaker 2: that can make you a super communicator, learning practicing just 725 00:34:10,276 --> 00:34:12,876 Speaker 2: a little bit, and then calling that friend that you 726 00:34:12,876 --> 00:34:15,436 Speaker 2: haven't talked to in nine months and saying, hey, man, 727 00:34:15,476 --> 00:34:17,516 Speaker 2: I'm just wondering, like what's life like for you? Like 728 00:34:17,556 --> 00:34:18,756 Speaker 2: how you feel in these days? 729 00:34:19,236 --> 00:34:19,436 Speaker 4: Right? 730 00:34:19,596 --> 00:34:21,556 Speaker 2: I know you went to Tahiti and it sounds amazing, 731 00:34:21,996 --> 00:34:24,436 Speaker 2: Like what about it? Like why did you go on 732 00:34:24,476 --> 00:34:28,036 Speaker 2: such a long trip? What about that was special? Just 733 00:34:28,276 --> 00:34:33,716 Speaker 2: doing that, having that conversation, it makes us happier, It 734 00:34:33,756 --> 00:34:37,436 Speaker 2: makes us healthier, and so it's worth learning to do this, 735 00:34:37,596 --> 00:34:39,316 Speaker 2: not because you have to be forced to be a 736 00:34:39,356 --> 00:34:42,756 Speaker 2: super communicator, but because it's something that makes your life better. 737 00:35:05,596 --> 00:35:08,636 Speaker 3: Thanks so much for listening. That's our final episode of 738 00:35:08,636 --> 00:35:10,876 Speaker 3: the season. We'll be back in the new year with 739 00:35:10,916 --> 00:35:14,716 Speaker 3: more episodes. In the meantime, you might enjoy my conversation 740 00:35:14,876 --> 00:35:18,996 Speaker 3: with champion debater bo So about the art of effective debating. 741 00:35:19,716 --> 00:35:22,516 Speaker 3: Bo says it starts with learning how to listen well. 742 00:35:23,156 --> 00:35:26,196 Speaker 3: The episode is called Let's Agree to Disagree More, and 743 00:35:26,236 --> 00:35:28,516 Speaker 3: we'll link to it in the show notes. You can 744 00:35:28,556 --> 00:35:31,956 Speaker 3: also check out our back catalog at any time. Every 745 00:35:32,036 --> 00:35:35,556 Speaker 3: episode is free and each story is timeless. You can 746 00:35:35,596 --> 00:35:38,396 Speaker 3: find them wherever you get your podcasts. I hope you 747 00:35:38,436 --> 00:35:51,916 Speaker 3: have a wonderful holiday season. See you next year. A 748 00:35:51,916 --> 00:35:55,396 Speaker 3: Slight Change of Plans is created, written, and executive produced 749 00:35:55,476 --> 00:35:58,876 Speaker 3: by me Maya Schunker. The Slight Change family includes our 750 00:35:58,916 --> 00:36:03,636 Speaker 3: showrunner Tyler Green, our senior producer Kate Parkinson Morgan, our 751 00:36:03,676 --> 00:36:09,036 Speaker 3: producer Brianna Garrett, and our engineer Ericahuang. Louis Scara wrote 752 00:36:09,316 --> 00:36:12,716 Speaker 3: delightful theme song and Ginger Smith helped arrange the vocals. 753 00:36:13,476 --> 00:36:16,516 Speaker 3: A Slight Change of Plans is a production of Pushkin Industries, 754 00:36:16,676 --> 00:36:19,636 Speaker 3: so a big thanks to everyone there, and of course 755 00:36:19,956 --> 00:36:21,716 Speaker 3: a very special thanks. 756 00:36:21,396 --> 00:36:22,676 Speaker 1: To Jimmy Lee. 757 00:36:23,116 --> 00:36:25,676 Speaker 3: You can follow a slight change of plans on Instagram 758 00:36:25,676 --> 00:36:27,036 Speaker 3: at doctor Maya Schunker