WEBVTT - A Thanksgiving Special Served up with Sara Fischer 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:03.880 I'm off my game today, You're not. People are going 0:00:03.920 --> 0:00:05.760 to have to start making better content. I think we're 0:00:05.760 --> 0:00:07.400 gonna be talking about this for a long time. When 0:00:07.440 --> 0:00:10.280 you program for everyone, you program for no one. I 0:00:10.280 --> 0:00:12.560 think it's that we're purpose driven platform, like we're trying 0:00:12.600 --> 0:00:15.960 to get to substance. How was that? Are you happy 0:00:16.000 --> 0:00:19.880 with that? This is marketing therapy right now? It really is? 0:00:27.840 --> 0:00:30.680 What's up? I'm Laura Currency and I'm Alexa Kristin. Welcome 0:00:30.720 --> 0:00:33.040 back to at Landia. So I just want to start 0:00:33.040 --> 0:00:35.279 off with a shout out. So for all of our 0:00:35.320 --> 0:00:38.000 at Landia listeners, we all know we're big fans of 0:00:38.040 --> 0:00:40.960 Laura CURRENTI I am particularly and Laura's going to kill 0:00:40.960 --> 0:00:43.440 me and be embarrassed for this, but I am particularly 0:00:43.520 --> 0:00:48.080 proud of my friend, my partner, my colleague, who last 0:00:48.120 --> 0:00:52.680 week was inducted into the Advertising Hall of Achievement. Huge congratulations, Laura, 0:00:52.920 --> 0:00:55.600 like an achievement that is, thank you for being my 0:00:55.680 --> 0:01:00.840 partner for five seven, seven years, because there are so 0:01:00.880 --> 0:01:04.759 many things that, um, we're recognized that we built together. 0:01:06.600 --> 0:01:11.360 That we're back Thanksgiving week, Happy Thanksgiving at Landia. We're 0:01:11.360 --> 0:01:14.880 bringing back Sarah Fisher, media reporter over at Axios to 0:01:15.040 --> 0:01:17.160 talk about the state of the industry as we go 0:01:17.240 --> 0:01:20.840 into the holiday season, specifically like talking about Facebook, which 0:01:20.880 --> 0:01:23.520 is something that like we can't ignore everybody's reporting on 0:01:23.560 --> 0:01:25.920 it and what's happening, and that kind of explosive report 0:01:25.959 --> 0:01:29.240 that The New York Times put out last week. I 0:01:29.319 --> 0:01:32.680 just think that, like from a brand perspective, from a 0:01:32.800 --> 0:01:36.960 media agency perspective, this gets even more interesting on how 0:01:37.000 --> 0:01:38.920 agencies are going to handle this stuff. And Sarah gets 0:01:38.920 --> 0:01:41.600 into it a bit and also talks about their new 0:01:41.640 --> 0:01:45.480 show on HBO. So really excited to have her with that. Atlantia. 0:01:45.600 --> 0:01:47.960 We hope you enjoy this special at Landia look at 0:01:47.960 --> 0:01:50.400 What's Happening in the industry with Sarah Fisher. We'll be 0:01:50.480 --> 0:02:04.840 right back. We have one of our favorite people returning 0:02:04.840 --> 0:02:07.559 for the third time. Magic number three. Sarah Fisher, Media 0:02:07.600 --> 0:02:11.880 reporter at Axio. Sarah, welcome, Thank you so much for 0:02:11.919 --> 0:02:15.200 having me. Good morning. Good morning, So Sarah, a lot 0:02:15.200 --> 0:02:18.440 of news coming out of Menlo Park around Facebook and 0:02:18.520 --> 0:02:21.160 know you've been covering this latest news. Can you give 0:02:21.200 --> 0:02:24.680 our listeners a high level overview of what's going on 0:02:24.760 --> 0:02:30.000 with Facebook and how the industry is reacting. Absolutely so 0:02:30.480 --> 0:02:34.000 The New York Times published a damning report last week 0:02:34.120 --> 0:02:36.920 that essentially said that some of these books top leaders, 0:02:36.960 --> 0:02:42.360 including CEO Mark Zuckerberg and CEO Cheryl Sandberg, were negligent 0:02:42.480 --> 0:02:49.120 in the way that they handled stake news, misinformation, election medaling, privacy, 0:02:49.240 --> 0:02:52.040 data security, a whole bunch of issues. Now, of course, 0:02:52.320 --> 0:02:55.840 executives came back swinging punches, saying that's just not true. 0:02:56.280 --> 0:02:59.240 We've made mistakes, but we've learned from them. But what 0:02:59.360 --> 0:03:03.440 we're seeing now is that for the first time, advertisers 0:03:03.440 --> 0:03:06.680 are starting to really think critically about whether or not 0:03:06.720 --> 0:03:09.800 they should be spending on these platforms. In the past, 0:03:10.440 --> 0:03:13.000 we didn't see ads spend it all that much in 0:03:13.080 --> 0:03:17.480 wake of Russian meddling or Cambridge Analytica. But now analysts 0:03:17.520 --> 0:03:22.160 are saying that they expect advertisers to begin to take 0:03:22.200 --> 0:03:24.960 a closer look at this. And when you talk to 0:03:25.000 --> 0:03:28.520 some of the biggest ad spenders for Facebook, so some 0:03:28.600 --> 0:03:32.080 of the folks that run the big agency holding group, 0:03:32.240 --> 0:03:35.920 these executives are saying, look, we don't trust anymore that 0:03:36.040 --> 0:03:39.800 Facebook is a place that has good values and has 0:03:39.840 --> 0:03:43.880 good brand value for our clients, and that is a 0:03:44.000 --> 0:03:47.520 very serious threat to Facebook's ad revenue. How does try 0:03:47.600 --> 0:03:51.600 nine team planning unfold if agencies and brands decide they've 0:03:51.600 --> 0:03:55.600 had enough. Well, I think, first of all, the timing 0:03:55.600 --> 0:03:58.000 of this is interesting because, as you mentioned, it is 0:03:58.080 --> 0:04:01.000 planning seasons, but a lot of those ur fps that 0:04:01.120 --> 0:04:04.800 begin January one have been science fils and delivered. So 0:04:04.960 --> 0:04:07.560 my assumption is that by Q one you're not going 0:04:07.560 --> 0:04:10.880 to see a huge difference spending, And my assumption is 0:04:10.920 --> 0:04:14.480 that it's Facebook can figure out a way to manage 0:04:14.480 --> 0:04:17.440 this crisis, then maybe you don't see this happen in 0:04:17.520 --> 0:04:20.240 Q two. I think what you're going to see is 0:04:20.240 --> 0:04:24.520 that advertisers are going to look eventually at shifting their 0:04:24.600 --> 0:04:28.760 spend to places where they can do target advertising, but 0:04:28.839 --> 0:04:30.960 they're going to have to figure out how they can 0:04:31.000 --> 0:04:33.120 do it at scale. I mean, that's the value at 0:04:33.120 --> 0:04:37.440 it Facebook. Two billion people are users not just across Facebook, 0:04:37.440 --> 0:04:40.640 but also across Instagram and some of their messaging apps. 0:04:40.680 --> 0:04:44.760 So expect advertisers to dump more money into places like Google, 0:04:45.040 --> 0:04:47.920 so Google News and Google Search where they're not facing 0:04:48.200 --> 0:04:50.960 as great as brand safety problems, but you can still 0:04:51.320 --> 0:04:54.680 target people at scale, But also expect them to take 0:04:54.960 --> 0:04:57.279 some of those dollars and put them in other places 0:04:57.320 --> 0:05:00.680 where they can target people from digital. But maybe the 0:05:00.760 --> 0:05:02.760 skill isn't as good, but at least it's a little 0:05:02.760 --> 0:05:04.880 bit of whoop round safe. So I'm thinking about things 0:05:04.880 --> 0:05:09.440 like connected TV, addressable advertising, maybe some new up and 0:05:09.480 --> 0:05:11.920 coming platforms where people are spending a ton of time, 0:05:12.080 --> 0:05:15.400 like a flipboard or maybe even a TikTok. That's what 0:05:15.440 --> 0:05:18.080 I would expect to happen in the market. And then 0:05:18.120 --> 0:05:20.159 of course you're always going to have people that say, 0:05:20.200 --> 0:05:23.000 you know what, forget about digital, I'm gonna double down 0:05:23.000 --> 0:05:26.200 on TV and billboards and other sorts of things. But 0:05:26.240 --> 0:05:29.000 I'd expect that slowly over time. If Facebook can't manage this, 0:05:29.080 --> 0:05:31.320 the money will blow somewhere else. I mean, it's a 0:05:31.400 --> 0:05:34.520 huge opportunity, right for competitors. I think I was listening 0:05:34.560 --> 0:05:38.159 to The Daily and they had a great clip of 0:05:38.240 --> 0:05:42.000 Tim Cook basically saying we are not going to sell 0:05:42.080 --> 0:05:46.160 your information. We are not in the business of you, right, 0:05:46.240 --> 0:05:49.120 We're in the business. And I think that like that 0:05:49.240 --> 0:05:51.760 is going to become a kind of a resounding talk 0:05:51.839 --> 0:05:54.960 track for a lot of their competitors. Um to gain 0:05:55.120 --> 0:05:58.440 more advertisers and to gain more spend. Is that true? 0:05:59.279 --> 0:06:01.560 I think that's I mean, we interviewed Tim Cooks for 0:06:01.600 --> 0:06:04.880 our Access on HBO show and one of the things 0:06:04.920 --> 0:06:07.880 he mentioned is that, you know, Apple has never really 0:06:07.880 --> 0:06:10.839 been an advertising business. They've always been a hardware business. 0:06:10.880 --> 0:06:14.080 But we know that the iPhone sales are plateauing and 0:06:14.120 --> 0:06:16.960 that growth is decelerating for some of their hardware products, 0:06:17.000 --> 0:06:19.440 sympically do to saturation. I mean, most people already have 0:06:19.560 --> 0:06:23.719 functioning iPhones, so they're trying to picket to software sales, 0:06:24.160 --> 0:06:28.120 which means that you're selling subscriptions to apps. You're trying 0:06:28.120 --> 0:06:30.240 to get people to spend more time with things like 0:06:30.440 --> 0:06:33.280 iTunes or whatever it may be. But this trend that 0:06:33.320 --> 0:06:37.479 you're seeing people shifting into not just software sales, but 0:06:37.880 --> 0:06:41.560 you know, digital potentially ad based software sales is not 0:06:41.760 --> 0:06:44.680 just native to Apple. We see Microsoft doubling down on this. 0:06:44.760 --> 0:06:48.400 To remember, they acquired linked In and now making close 0:06:48.440 --> 0:06:51.719 to two billion in advertising from LinkedIn. So I think 0:06:51.720 --> 0:06:53.800 you're right. I think that people are going to look 0:06:53.800 --> 0:06:56.840 at what's happening in Facebook competitors and say, how can 0:06:56.880 --> 0:06:59.320 we learn from this, How can we potentially scoop up 0:06:59.360 --> 0:07:02.840 some of that revenue by marketing. Our products is being 0:07:02.960 --> 0:07:06.920 branded safe as being value based, and it's not just 0:07:07.000 --> 0:07:09.440 going to be your other digital players like Twitter and 0:07:09.480 --> 0:07:12.280 Google as you mentioned with Apple, it could also be 0:07:12.360 --> 0:07:16.120 some of the more traditional you know, Harvard players are 0:07:16.160 --> 0:07:18.800 looking to get into software. That's been an opening here. 0:07:19.160 --> 0:07:23.520 What about a potential pivot back to traditional mediums, non 0:07:23.560 --> 0:07:28.080 digital platforms like radio and TV and out of home 0:07:28.320 --> 0:07:30.960 And one of the things that we've been following is 0:07:31.560 --> 0:07:35.320 the need to find a one to one engagement and 0:07:35.960 --> 0:07:43.840 going deeper into more contextual targeting, creating communities, building conversations. 0:07:44.360 --> 0:07:48.160 What does that look like? Because I think this highlights, uh, 0:07:48.240 --> 0:07:51.880 some of the issues in sort of mass digital scale 0:07:52.320 --> 0:07:57.080 UM platforms. I definitely think that some of the traditional 0:07:57.840 --> 0:08:00.960 ad platforms that are digitized thing or on the rucks 0:08:01.240 --> 0:08:03.200 if you take a look at out of home. Out 0:08:03.240 --> 0:08:07.360 of home has been growing year over year because billboards 0:08:07.400 --> 0:08:10.320 and subway posters are all becoming digital and thus they 0:08:10.320 --> 0:08:13.240 can be bought and sold programmatically. In fact, a lot 0:08:13.280 --> 0:08:15.520 of those companies I think are going to thrive in 0:08:15.560 --> 0:08:19.800 the driverless car era because they're so location based. As 0:08:19.880 --> 0:08:22.240 the data that they have they will be able to 0:08:22.600 --> 0:08:26.920 maximize through partnerships with other platforms. As far as where 0:08:27.360 --> 0:08:30.960 other of traditional media platforms are going, I mean, the 0:08:31.000 --> 0:08:33.800 same thing is happening with TV. It's becoming more addressable, 0:08:33.840 --> 0:08:37.360 it's going over the top, and so eventually you'll find 0:08:37.360 --> 0:08:40.880 a world in which all television advertising is bought and 0:08:40.920 --> 0:08:45.640 sold programmatically, and I think that people will be shifting 0:08:45.640 --> 0:08:48.800 their dollars there. Radio is an interesting one that I 0:08:48.920 --> 0:08:51.720 am curious to see what happens, and that's because as 0:08:51.720 --> 0:08:56.520 we're seeing with revenue trends and user trends, terrestrial terrestrial 0:08:56.640 --> 0:09:02.040 radio is having a tough time. Streaming podcasts, those are 0:09:02.080 --> 0:09:06.040 doing very well, but regular radio that you're listening to 0:09:06.080 --> 0:09:10.280 their car is not experiencing as much growth simply because 0:09:10.320 --> 0:09:13.440 people are tuning into digital alternatives. So my long answer 0:09:13.440 --> 0:09:17.320 if you're short question is anything that's going digital, people 0:09:17.320 --> 0:09:20.439 will invest their dollars there. But if you're not innovating 0:09:20.480 --> 0:09:23.360 and going digital, you're just those traditional ad mediums. We're 0:09:23.360 --> 0:09:26.920 not going to exceed dollar spite. It's every ad medium 0:09:27.080 --> 0:09:30.280 that is a digital medium at risk for the type 0:09:30.320 --> 0:09:33.200 of fraud and the type of issues that we've seen 0:09:33.360 --> 0:09:37.200 on a scale like Facebook. Absolutely, I'm gonna be writing 0:09:37.200 --> 0:09:40.600 about this uh in my newsletter that connected TV is 0:09:40.640 --> 0:09:43.520 basically an ad fraud scheme right now, anytime you're not 0:09:43.600 --> 0:09:46.640 buying one to one, you're not buying direct. You have 0:09:46.760 --> 0:09:50.200 a broken supply chain, you have middlemen that make you 0:09:50.280 --> 0:09:54.800 more susceptible to fraud schemes and to complications, and so 0:09:54.920 --> 0:10:01.080 I would absolutely anticipate that as more advertising goes automated, 0:10:02.040 --> 0:10:06.040 you're gonna just have an increase in fraud and increasing complications. 0:10:06.400 --> 0:10:09.200 The good news is though, that I think more and 0:10:09.240 --> 0:10:12.800 more people are starting to look at programmatic direct, which 0:10:12.840 --> 0:10:16.360 is where you use programmatic infrastructure to target ads, but 0:10:16.440 --> 0:10:19.400 you're still selling them one on one. You see this 0:10:19.440 --> 0:10:22.079 with ad vendors using something called ad dot t f T. 0:10:22.800 --> 0:10:26.920 While this isn't totally direct, it's essentially saying to the publishers, 0:10:27.120 --> 0:10:29.240 you have to pre approve the vendors that are you're 0:10:29.240 --> 0:10:31.720 going to be working with. And I think steps like 0:10:31.800 --> 0:10:35.600 that will help reduce fraud. But it's something that the 0:10:35.640 --> 0:10:38.560 industry is always going to have to monitor as more 0:10:38.640 --> 0:10:41.600 ad mediums move digital. So you were just talking about 0:10:42.040 --> 0:10:45.680 the idea of TV becoming addressable, or that all television 0:10:45.720 --> 0:10:49.800 advertising has the potential to become automated. Are we at 0:10:49.800 --> 0:10:54.240 all worried about the backlash that that creates. I think 0:10:54.400 --> 0:10:56.920 some of the things that we've heard in the market, 0:10:56.960 --> 0:11:01.440 and going to Lyndia Karino's State of the Industry forum 0:11:01.520 --> 0:11:04.480 last year was around the idea that a few or 0:11:04.520 --> 0:11:10.000 more contextual ads presents, you know, a more favorable experience 0:11:10.480 --> 0:11:14.480 for consumers. Are you hearing anything around that and do 0:11:14.480 --> 0:11:17.760 you think that that could create a larger pushback in 0:11:17.880 --> 0:11:22.160 that it kicks over to the subscription side. Yeah, I 0:11:22.160 --> 0:11:25.319 think so. I think we'll consumer hate advertising. That's why 0:11:25.400 --> 0:11:28.680 subscription based platforms are on the rise. That's why Netflix 0:11:28.720 --> 0:11:31.679 do so well is because we've become a tuned, especially 0:11:31.679 --> 0:11:35.240 younger generations, to to add out. We don't want to 0:11:35.240 --> 0:11:38.280 have to be bothered by them. The problem is that 0:11:38.360 --> 0:11:42.560 once you do get to an era where we are 0:11:42.600 --> 0:11:47.240 all attached to five G, where streaming becomes the default 0:11:47.360 --> 0:11:51.720 because linear is too slow, there is going to be 0:11:51.800 --> 0:11:55.360 a fundamental shift in how television advertising is purchased. Right now, 0:11:55.360 --> 0:11:59.720 about ten of television advertising is bought through advanced channels, 0:11:59.720 --> 0:12:02.160 what a be programmatic or addressable or a little o 0:12:02.280 --> 0:12:05.600 t T expect that in the coming years to shift 0:12:05.679 --> 0:12:09.560 closer to one hundred, and when it does, you as 0:12:09.600 --> 0:12:12.319 a marketer are not going to be able to necessarily 0:12:12.400 --> 0:12:16.360 buy that massive scale ads day parted the way that 0:12:16.400 --> 0:12:18.440 you used to, and you're just going to have to 0:12:18.480 --> 0:12:21.360 adjust now. I do think that the market will adjust 0:12:21.720 --> 0:12:25.560 a little bit itself, meaning that even though there are 0:12:25.600 --> 0:12:27.520 going to be a lot of opportunities to target people 0:12:27.520 --> 0:12:29.640 in a really niche way, there's still going to be 0:12:29.679 --> 0:12:33.719 opportunities to hit people cheaply for a big scale buy. 0:12:34.240 --> 0:12:35.920 I don't know exactly what that's going to look like 0:12:35.960 --> 0:12:38.319 because we haven't really seen it yet. You know, addressable 0:12:38.400 --> 0:12:41.520 still so small, but I think that eventually, for people 0:12:41.880 --> 0:12:45.000 who need to market goods at scale, the opportunity will 0:12:45.040 --> 0:12:47.800 be there. How do you think that impacts the creative 0:12:47.800 --> 0:12:52.040 industry right? Because the types of ads in the digital space, 0:12:52.120 --> 0:12:54.760 there's the nimbleness and the ability to shift in that 0:12:54.880 --> 0:12:58.040 sort of creative development. But when it comes to creating 0:12:58.160 --> 0:13:03.679 something on air, typically the process is much more complex. 0:13:03.840 --> 0:13:07.520 Do you think that you know, agencies in particular, and 0:13:07.640 --> 0:13:11.160 our content studio sitting within, you know, networks and publishers 0:13:11.920 --> 0:13:15.079 have to think about what that creative world looks like, 0:13:16.000 --> 0:13:19.120 oh absolutely. I mean there's two big things here. The 0:13:19.120 --> 0:13:22.120 first is that digital allows you to optimize in real time. 0:13:22.480 --> 0:13:25.560 You could do a small test buy on digital, see 0:13:25.679 --> 0:13:29.320 which creatives work for which audiences, and optimize and change 0:13:29.320 --> 0:13:31.080 your creative. And by the way, there will be a 0:13:31.080 --> 0:13:34.000 time when AI will help you optimize your creative. You 0:13:34.040 --> 0:13:36.200 can swap in the color of a sweater or the 0:13:36.240 --> 0:13:39.240 tone of somebody's voice to make it more appealing. I 0:13:39.280 --> 0:13:41.679 think too, if you're a brand, you've had to worry 0:13:41.679 --> 0:13:45.240 about making sure that you're advertising is household friendly and 0:13:45.280 --> 0:13:49.000 family friendly. And I think you know, addressable advertising is 0:13:49.040 --> 0:13:51.000 going to mean that you can target your creative a 0:13:51.040 --> 0:13:53.719 little bit more acutely. And even if you look at 0:13:54.440 --> 0:13:57.320 some grants who are trying to make sure that their 0:13:57.400 --> 0:14:00.960 product is marketed in a way that's appeasing to the 0:14:01.000 --> 0:14:03.120 whole family, they might not have to worry about it 0:14:03.160 --> 0:14:05.800 as much in a DPC world. So I do think 0:14:05.800 --> 0:14:08.160 you're right that creative will adapt and change to be 0:14:08.200 --> 0:14:11.400 more customized and to be less focused on pleasing every 0:14:11.440 --> 0:14:14.400 single member of the family because they're going to have 0:14:14.440 --> 0:14:16.840 the opportunity to target a little bitter. Do you think 0:14:16.920 --> 0:14:19.600 that you know, brands like maybe the P and G 0:14:19.840 --> 0:14:22.240 S and the Nest Lease and the Mars and all 0:14:22.240 --> 0:14:25.280 those folks that are looking for scale will also start 0:14:25.360 --> 0:14:28.720 using addressable to do more testing. Yeah, I mean I 0:14:28.760 --> 0:14:31.160 think that pretty much what's going to happen is that 0:14:31.440 --> 0:14:33.720 people right now the way, especially if you talk to 0:14:33.720 --> 0:14:37.560 political campaigns, you use digital as last you see what 0:14:37.640 --> 0:14:41.680 creative resonates, and then you apply those learnings to traditional 0:14:41.720 --> 0:14:45.120 media so GEO, t V or you know, television. I 0:14:45.120 --> 0:14:47.520 wouldn't surprise me if you start to see the opposite 0:14:47.600 --> 0:14:50.320 happen as well, where now that the barrier to entry 0:14:50.320 --> 0:14:53.080 for television comes way down, more people can afford advertising 0:14:53.080 --> 0:14:56.960 on TV, people will use addressable TV AD budgets to 0:14:57.080 --> 0:15:00.640 test and optimize for digital platforms or O T T 0:15:00.840 --> 0:15:03.320 or whatever it might be. So I definitely think that's 0:15:03.320 --> 0:15:04.920 coming down the pike. I think at the end of 0:15:04.920 --> 0:15:08.360 the day, everything goes digital AD medium that was ever 0:15:08.440 --> 0:15:12.200 traditional becomes digital or dies or devolved to be something 0:15:12.240 --> 0:15:15.400 that's more digital like, and eventually you're going to be 0:15:15.440 --> 0:15:19.080 able to save your planner. I want a test budget 0:15:19.160 --> 0:15:22.880 across medium. Here's a hundred thousand dollars to test and 0:15:22.920 --> 0:15:24.960 then you can funnel down and say, all right, well, 0:15:25.520 --> 0:15:29.600 this digital ad performs really well on streaming, this digital 0:15:29.640 --> 0:15:34.080 ads performed really well on digital billboards, and you'll be 0:15:34.120 --> 0:15:37.400 able to narrow down which mediums you spend with after 0:15:37.480 --> 0:15:40.240 doing a one broad digital test. I think that's the future. 0:15:40.640 --> 0:15:42.760 One note on that, though, I think is interesting is 0:15:42.800 --> 0:15:45.680 that you know, for print it's still a place where 0:15:46.280 --> 0:15:49.760 even digital brands take out full page ads to make 0:15:49.800 --> 0:15:52.080 a statement when you think about the number of brands 0:15:52.160 --> 0:15:55.280 asking for more experiential and how I would think about 0:15:55.280 --> 0:15:57.760 it from a planning standpoint is moving to a place 0:15:57.760 --> 0:16:01.320 where there's complementary offline online builds, where all of a 0:16:01.360 --> 0:16:03.560 sudden we move away from channel planning and we start 0:16:03.600 --> 0:16:07.760 thinking about ecosystem I think that's right. I we read 0:16:07.800 --> 0:16:10.120 a poll for Actis a couple of days ago and 0:16:10.160 --> 0:16:14.880 it basically suggested that more people are craving in person communication, 0:16:15.400 --> 0:16:17.400 and I think the same thing is happening with marketing. 0:16:17.640 --> 0:16:22.320 You have niche efficiency buys that are low funnel and digital, 0:16:22.400 --> 0:16:24.800 and because everything is going digital, everything moves to low 0:16:24.840 --> 0:16:28.440 funnel on digital and then you use what was top 0:16:28.480 --> 0:16:33.640 of the funnel, so you're broad based television targeting or 0:16:34.040 --> 0:16:39.040 newspaper ads they still exist in some cases, or quite frankly, 0:16:39.080 --> 0:16:43.080 top of the funnel totally evolved into something way more experiential. 0:16:43.160 --> 0:16:47.040 So I remember Giant spoon Wire your agency did a 0:16:47.160 --> 0:16:51.480 live PD ad with Mass Mutual during New Year's V Right, 0:16:51.600 --> 0:16:54.360 that is something that marketers would need to thought about 0:16:54.440 --> 0:16:56.640 a couple of years ago. But we have to put 0:16:56.720 --> 0:16:59.880 so much more emphasis on top of the funnel experiential 0:17:00.840 --> 0:17:04.120 now that everything is going digital and everything is moving 0:17:04.440 --> 0:17:06.400 to the bottom of the funnel. And so what does 0:17:06.440 --> 0:17:08.000 top of the funnel mean. I mean, it could be 0:17:08.040 --> 0:17:10.479 an experiential at on New Year's e it could be 0:17:10.920 --> 0:17:17.119 a massive billboard in times square are functionality, Yes, a 0:17:17.160 --> 0:17:21.760 newspaper takeover if people are still reading newspapers. It's anything 0:17:21.760 --> 0:17:24.679 that exactly has high level impact. And I think we 0:17:24.840 --> 0:17:27.600 spend so much time talking about what the bottom of 0:17:27.600 --> 0:17:30.440 that funnel is going to look like, how everything's moving digital. 0:17:30.720 --> 0:17:32.920 But you're right, we're not spending enough time thinking about 0:17:32.920 --> 0:17:35.600 how this really changes the top of the funnel in 0:17:35.680 --> 0:17:37.639 ways that we don't even know yet well. And the 0:17:37.680 --> 0:17:39.879 idea that like an Alexa and I have spent our 0:17:40.000 --> 0:17:45.000 entire careers moving towards this non linear funnel, right, this 0:17:45.080 --> 0:17:48.320 idea that marketing is layered in nuanced and how do 0:17:48.400 --> 0:17:52.080 you have a mic drop complimented with you know, always 0:17:52.160 --> 0:17:57.000 on media and being comfortable with the fact that people 0:17:57.040 --> 0:17:59.639 are going to come into your brand however they want. 0:18:00.040 --> 0:18:02.800 I think of one thing that's really interesting that you're implying, Sarah, 0:18:02.840 --> 0:18:05.760 And we've talked a lot about this with folks like 0:18:05.840 --> 0:18:11.600 Rachel Typograph, that marketers have underestimated the relationship between top 0:18:11.600 --> 0:18:14.320 of the funnel and lower funnel, right, And I think 0:18:14.359 --> 0:18:18.040 that that has fundamentally changed, but the market has actually 0:18:18.119 --> 0:18:22.440 been slow um to adjust for that, and you're seeing 0:18:22.600 --> 0:18:26.600 agencies and marketers actually shine through who understand it. So 0:18:26.640 --> 0:18:29.160 I think it's a really interesting paradigm. Let's talk two 0:18:29.200 --> 0:18:31.440 seconds that we want to hear more about Axios on 0:18:31.640 --> 0:18:35.720 HBO speaking of traditional non traditional. Tell us more about 0:18:35.720 --> 0:18:39.240 the show. The show has been an interesting experience for 0:18:39.240 --> 0:18:41.960 everyone involved. I think one you take a bunch of 0:18:42.000 --> 0:18:45.560 print journalists and you try to make something for television, 0:18:45.600 --> 0:18:49.640 and you recognize your own strengths and weaknesses. And that's 0:18:49.640 --> 0:18:52.360 important not just for us, because it's opening up our 0:18:52.359 --> 0:18:55.160 eyes to how we could improve our storytelling. But it's 0:18:55.160 --> 0:18:58.320 also I think good for HBO and other TV platforms 0:18:58.320 --> 0:19:01.960 that are trying to understand how print or text based 0:19:02.000 --> 0:19:05.640 news UH sees the framing of news. For so long 0:19:05.680 --> 0:19:09.080 on television, I would watch You Know Sixty Minutes or 0:19:09.240 --> 0:19:12.400 a few other news shows try to tackle these very 0:19:12.440 --> 0:19:16.440 serious but complicated topics for general American audience, and it's 0:19:16.480 --> 0:19:19.359 hard to do it without dumbing it down. And we've 0:19:19.440 --> 0:19:23.000 kind of approached the show with the perspective of there's 0:19:23.000 --> 0:19:26.360 a way to tackle really high level issues that are 0:19:26.359 --> 0:19:29.560 important to everyday Americans without having to dumb it down, 0:19:29.880 --> 0:19:34.480 without having to address the biggest possible and whist audience. 0:19:34.520 --> 0:19:36.000 And so I think that's part of why we went 0:19:36.040 --> 0:19:39.520 with HBO. HBO consumers pay for that experience. It's a 0:19:39.560 --> 0:19:42.959 premium cable channel and over the top experience, and our 0:19:42.960 --> 0:19:46.200 assumption was that people would want something that would talk 0:19:46.240 --> 0:19:48.880 about news of the day in a way that's sexy 0:19:48.920 --> 0:19:51.600 and interesting but not dumb down, and so far, I 0:19:51.680 --> 0:19:54.040 think it's working. I think some of the interviews that 0:19:54.080 --> 0:19:57.040 we've had and made news we interviewed can cook. This 0:19:57.160 --> 0:20:00.240 past episode, we interview Donald Trump, our first episode. I 0:20:00.280 --> 0:20:02.719 think people like it so so far, the experience has 0:20:02.720 --> 0:20:05.639 been wonderful. We're very grateful to HBO and all the 0:20:05.680 --> 0:20:08.080 efforts that they're putting into it and everything that they're 0:20:08.119 --> 0:20:11.280 teaching us about how we need to think about storytelling differently. 0:20:11.320 --> 0:20:13.520 You know, we don't really think about the visual aspects 0:20:13.520 --> 0:20:16.080 of all the time when we're writing stories. But now 0:20:16.119 --> 0:20:18.600 we see the power of some of these visual mediums. 0:20:18.680 --> 0:20:21.400 You know, we couldn't have walked through the Apple Garden 0:20:21.720 --> 0:20:25.480 and see how they're planning a are through test, like 0:20:25.600 --> 0:20:28.280 that's something we could have only done their videos. I 0:20:28.280 --> 0:20:31.000 think for us, like we started the podcast because in 0:20:31.080 --> 0:20:33.359 fact we didn't want to go with video. The point 0:20:33.480 --> 0:20:37.040 is is also it's not just exploring new mediums, it's 0:20:37.080 --> 0:20:40.000 also what is right for the story. I think a 0:20:40.000 --> 0:20:44.960 lot of digital first media companies are starting to recognize 0:20:45.080 --> 0:20:51.080 that these over the top partnerships they're they're actually high 0:20:51.160 --> 0:20:53.879 level marketing vehicles. You listen to meritithal Loving and from 0:20:53.960 --> 0:20:56.640 York Times on earnings casts, so tell you like their 0:20:56.680 --> 0:20:59.719 partnerships with Effects or you know, wherever they're running their 0:20:59.720 --> 0:21:03.760 tea shows. It's hyphonal branding. It's what's getting people who 0:21:03.800 --> 0:21:05.600 didn't normally pick up a paper or go to your 0:21:05.600 --> 0:21:08.040 own line exposed to you, and I think we are 0:21:08.040 --> 0:21:11.439 thinking about it in the same way. So, Sarah, what 0:21:11.480 --> 0:21:14.560 would you kill by d I y in the industry 0:21:14.640 --> 0:21:18.760 as we close out? So from my kill, I wouldn't 0:21:18.760 --> 0:21:21.320 say that I would absolutely kill this, but maybe I 0:21:21.320 --> 0:21:26.240 could bend the rules and reevaluate my relationship and marketers 0:21:26.240 --> 0:21:29.200 relationship with Facebook. Given some of the headlines that we've 0:21:29.200 --> 0:21:31.480 been hearing, I think that it's only a matter of 0:21:31.560 --> 0:21:36.520 time that their brand value becomes a risk with your 0:21:36.560 --> 0:21:40.040 brand value. If you're choosing to put your money where 0:21:40.040 --> 0:21:44.120 your mouth is and advocating for, you know, a transparent, 0:21:44.600 --> 0:21:49.280 transactional marketplace, then Facebook right now doesn't seem to be 0:21:49.440 --> 0:21:52.240 the best fit. But I understand that there's still a 0:21:52.240 --> 0:21:54.280 lot of marketing value and that it might not be 0:21:54.320 --> 0:21:56.920 easy to just pull every dollar. So I think I 0:21:56.960 --> 0:22:01.240 would not necessarily kill but reevaluate our relationship with Facebook 0:22:01.240 --> 0:22:04.080 when it comes to add them. Okay, what would you buy? 0:22:04.119 --> 0:22:08.800 I would buy into anyone who's doing sports betting media. 0:22:09.240 --> 0:22:11.960 We just did a big set on this with active 0:22:12.720 --> 0:22:16.640 sports betting is going to explode. It's going to become 0:22:16.720 --> 0:22:20.480 a massive part of both media and sports revenue. And 0:22:20.680 --> 0:22:23.359 for those like I think about draft kings that are 0:22:23.359 --> 0:22:27.240 starting to create shows, CBS doing the same thing about 0:22:27.280 --> 0:22:29.919 how where you should be putting bets, the same thing 0:22:29.920 --> 0:22:32.679 with fantasy. By the way, that is a smart investment. 0:22:32.920 --> 0:22:35.600 It's only going to spike more states are going to 0:22:36.040 --> 0:22:40.359 approve legislation that allows you to gamble. That's where I 0:22:40.359 --> 0:22:44.639 would invest. What would you do yourself? I think, especially 0:22:44.680 --> 0:22:47.760 ahead of the holiday season, there's a lot of books 0:22:47.800 --> 0:22:49.520 that I want to read, and I think that we 0:22:49.560 --> 0:22:52.040 should all be reading a little bit more. And that's 0:22:52.040 --> 0:22:54.240 the one thing I want to do myself is take 0:22:54.359 --> 0:22:59.439