1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:03,880 Speaker 1: I'm off my game today, You're not. People are going 2 00:00:03,920 --> 00:00:05,760 Speaker 1: to have to start making better content. I think we're 3 00:00:05,760 --> 00:00:07,400 Speaker 1: gonna be talking about this for a long time. When 4 00:00:07,440 --> 00:00:10,280 Speaker 1: you program for everyone, you program for no one. I 5 00:00:10,280 --> 00:00:12,560 Speaker 1: think it's that we're purpose driven platform, like we're trying 6 00:00:12,600 --> 00:00:15,960 Speaker 1: to get to substance. How was that? Are you happy 7 00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:19,880 Speaker 1: with that? This is marketing therapy right now? It really is? 8 00:00:27,840 --> 00:00:30,680 Speaker 1: What's up? I'm Laura Currency and I'm Alexa Kristin. Welcome 9 00:00:30,720 --> 00:00:33,040 Speaker 1: back to at Landia. So I just want to start 10 00:00:33,040 --> 00:00:35,279 Speaker 1: off with a shout out. So for all of our 11 00:00:35,320 --> 00:00:38,000 Speaker 1: at Landia listeners, we all know we're big fans of 12 00:00:38,040 --> 00:00:40,960 Speaker 1: Laura CURRENTI I am particularly and Laura's going to kill 13 00:00:40,960 --> 00:00:43,440 Speaker 1: me and be embarrassed for this, but I am particularly 14 00:00:43,520 --> 00:00:48,080 Speaker 1: proud of my friend, my partner, my colleague, who last 15 00:00:48,120 --> 00:00:52,680 Speaker 1: week was inducted into the Advertising Hall of Achievement. Huge congratulations, Laura, 16 00:00:52,920 --> 00:00:55,600 Speaker 1: like an achievement that is, thank you for being my 17 00:00:55,680 --> 00:01:00,840 Speaker 1: partner for five seven, seven years, because there are so 18 00:01:00,880 --> 00:01:04,759 Speaker 1: many things that, um, we're recognized that we built together. 19 00:01:06,600 --> 00:01:11,360 Speaker 1: That we're back Thanksgiving week, Happy Thanksgiving at Landia. We're 20 00:01:11,360 --> 00:01:14,880 Speaker 1: bringing back Sarah Fisher, media reporter over at Axios to 21 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:17,160 Speaker 1: talk about the state of the industry as we go 22 00:01:17,240 --> 00:01:20,840 Speaker 1: into the holiday season, specifically like talking about Facebook, which 23 00:01:20,880 --> 00:01:23,520 Speaker 1: is something that like we can't ignore everybody's reporting on 24 00:01:23,560 --> 00:01:25,920 Speaker 1: it and what's happening, and that kind of explosive report 25 00:01:25,959 --> 00:01:29,240 Speaker 1: that The New York Times put out last week. I 26 00:01:29,319 --> 00:01:32,680 Speaker 1: just think that, like from a brand perspective, from a 27 00:01:32,800 --> 00:01:36,960 Speaker 1: media agency perspective, this gets even more interesting on how 28 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:38,920 Speaker 1: agencies are going to handle this stuff. And Sarah gets 29 00:01:38,920 --> 00:01:41,600 Speaker 1: into it a bit and also talks about their new 30 00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:45,480 Speaker 1: show on HBO. So really excited to have her with that. Atlantia. 31 00:01:45,600 --> 00:01:47,960 Speaker 1: We hope you enjoy this special at Landia look at 32 00:01:47,960 --> 00:01:50,400 Speaker 1: What's Happening in the industry with Sarah Fisher. We'll be 33 00:01:50,480 --> 00:02:04,840 Speaker 1: right back. We have one of our favorite people returning 34 00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:07,559 Speaker 1: for the third time. Magic number three. Sarah Fisher, Media 35 00:02:07,600 --> 00:02:11,880 Speaker 1: reporter at Axio. Sarah, welcome, Thank you so much for 36 00:02:11,919 --> 00:02:15,200 Speaker 1: having me. Good morning. Good morning, So Sarah, a lot 37 00:02:15,200 --> 00:02:18,440 Speaker 1: of news coming out of Menlo Park around Facebook and 38 00:02:18,520 --> 00:02:21,160 Speaker 1: know you've been covering this latest news. Can you give 39 00:02:21,200 --> 00:02:24,680 Speaker 1: our listeners a high level overview of what's going on 40 00:02:24,760 --> 00:02:30,000 Speaker 1: with Facebook and how the industry is reacting. Absolutely so 41 00:02:30,480 --> 00:02:34,000 Speaker 1: The New York Times published a damning report last week 42 00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:36,920 Speaker 1: that essentially said that some of these books top leaders, 43 00:02:36,960 --> 00:02:42,360 Speaker 1: including CEO Mark Zuckerberg and CEO Cheryl Sandberg, were negligent 44 00:02:42,480 --> 00:02:49,120 Speaker 1: in the way that they handled stake news, misinformation, election medaling, privacy, 45 00:02:49,240 --> 00:02:52,040 Speaker 1: data security, a whole bunch of issues. Now, of course, 46 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:55,840 Speaker 1: executives came back swinging punches, saying that's just not true. 47 00:02:56,280 --> 00:02:59,240 Speaker 1: We've made mistakes, but we've learned from them. But what 48 00:02:59,360 --> 00:03:03,440 Speaker 1: we're seeing now is that for the first time, advertisers 49 00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:06,680 Speaker 1: are starting to really think critically about whether or not 50 00:03:06,720 --> 00:03:09,800 Speaker 1: they should be spending on these platforms. In the past, 51 00:03:10,440 --> 00:03:13,000 Speaker 1: we didn't see ads spend it all that much in 52 00:03:13,080 --> 00:03:17,480 Speaker 1: wake of Russian meddling or Cambridge Analytica. But now analysts 53 00:03:17,520 --> 00:03:22,160 Speaker 1: are saying that they expect advertisers to begin to take 54 00:03:22,200 --> 00:03:24,960 Speaker 1: a closer look at this. And when you talk to 55 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:28,520 Speaker 1: some of the biggest ad spenders for Facebook, so some 56 00:03:28,600 --> 00:03:32,080 Speaker 1: of the folks that run the big agency holding group, 57 00:03:32,240 --> 00:03:35,920 Speaker 1: these executives are saying, look, we don't trust anymore that 58 00:03:36,040 --> 00:03:39,800 Speaker 1: Facebook is a place that has good values and has 59 00:03:39,840 --> 00:03:43,880 Speaker 1: good brand value for our clients, and that is a 60 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:47,520 Speaker 1: very serious threat to Facebook's ad revenue. How does try 61 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:51,600 Speaker 1: nine team planning unfold if agencies and brands decide they've 62 00:03:51,600 --> 00:03:55,600 Speaker 1: had enough. Well, I think, first of all, the timing 63 00:03:55,600 --> 00:03:58,000 Speaker 1: of this is interesting because, as you mentioned, it is 64 00:03:58,080 --> 00:04:01,000 Speaker 1: planning seasons, but a lot of those ur fps that 65 00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:04,800 Speaker 1: begin January one have been science fils and delivered. So 66 00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:07,560 Speaker 1: my assumption is that by Q one you're not going 67 00:04:07,560 --> 00:04:10,880 Speaker 1: to see a huge difference spending, And my assumption is 68 00:04:10,920 --> 00:04:14,480 Speaker 1: that it's Facebook can figure out a way to manage 69 00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:17,440 Speaker 1: this crisis, then maybe you don't see this happen in 70 00:04:17,520 --> 00:04:20,240 Speaker 1: Q two. I think what you're going to see is 71 00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:24,520 Speaker 1: that advertisers are going to look eventually at shifting their 72 00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:28,760 Speaker 1: spend to places where they can do target advertising, but 73 00:04:28,839 --> 00:04:30,960 Speaker 1: they're going to have to figure out how they can 74 00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:33,120 Speaker 1: do it at scale. I mean, that's the value at 75 00:04:33,120 --> 00:04:37,440 Speaker 1: it Facebook. Two billion people are users not just across Facebook, 76 00:04:37,440 --> 00:04:40,640 Speaker 1: but also across Instagram and some of their messaging apps. 77 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:44,760 Speaker 1: So expect advertisers to dump more money into places like Google, 78 00:04:45,040 --> 00:04:47,920 Speaker 1: so Google News and Google Search where they're not facing 79 00:04:48,200 --> 00:04:50,960 Speaker 1: as great as brand safety problems, but you can still 80 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:54,680 Speaker 1: target people at scale, But also expect them to take 81 00:04:54,960 --> 00:04:57,279 Speaker 1: some of those dollars and put them in other places 82 00:04:57,320 --> 00:05:00,680 Speaker 1: where they can target people from digital. But maybe the 83 00:05:00,760 --> 00:05:02,760 Speaker 1: skill isn't as good, but at least it's a little 84 00:05:02,760 --> 00:05:04,880 Speaker 1: bit of whoop round safe. So I'm thinking about things 85 00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:09,440 Speaker 1: like connected TV, addressable advertising, maybe some new up and 86 00:05:09,480 --> 00:05:11,920 Speaker 1: coming platforms where people are spending a ton of time, 87 00:05:12,080 --> 00:05:15,400 Speaker 1: like a flipboard or maybe even a TikTok. That's what 88 00:05:15,440 --> 00:05:18,080 Speaker 1: I would expect to happen in the market. And then 89 00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:20,159 Speaker 1: of course you're always going to have people that say, 90 00:05:20,200 --> 00:05:23,000 Speaker 1: you know what, forget about digital, I'm gonna double down 91 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:26,200 Speaker 1: on TV and billboards and other sorts of things. But 92 00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:29,000 Speaker 1: I'd expect that slowly over time. If Facebook can't manage this, 93 00:05:29,080 --> 00:05:31,320 Speaker 1: the money will blow somewhere else. I mean, it's a 94 00:05:31,400 --> 00:05:34,520 Speaker 1: huge opportunity, right for competitors. I think I was listening 95 00:05:34,560 --> 00:05:38,159 Speaker 1: to The Daily and they had a great clip of 96 00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:42,000 Speaker 1: Tim Cook basically saying we are not going to sell 97 00:05:42,080 --> 00:05:46,160 Speaker 1: your information. We are not in the business of you, right, 98 00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:49,120 Speaker 1: We're in the business. And I think that like that 99 00:05:49,240 --> 00:05:51,760 Speaker 1: is going to become a kind of a resounding talk 100 00:05:51,839 --> 00:05:54,960 Speaker 1: track for a lot of their competitors. Um to gain 101 00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:58,440 Speaker 1: more advertisers and to gain more spend. Is that true? 102 00:05:59,279 --> 00:06:01,560 Speaker 1: I think that's I mean, we interviewed Tim Cooks for 103 00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:04,880 Speaker 1: our Access on HBO show and one of the things 104 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:07,880 Speaker 1: he mentioned is that, you know, Apple has never really 105 00:06:07,880 --> 00:06:10,839 Speaker 1: been an advertising business. They've always been a hardware business. 106 00:06:10,880 --> 00:06:14,080 Speaker 1: But we know that the iPhone sales are plateauing and 107 00:06:14,120 --> 00:06:16,960 Speaker 1: that growth is decelerating for some of their hardware products, 108 00:06:17,000 --> 00:06:19,440 Speaker 1: sympically do to saturation. I mean, most people already have 109 00:06:19,560 --> 00:06:23,719 Speaker 1: functioning iPhones, so they're trying to picket to software sales, 110 00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:28,120 Speaker 1: which means that you're selling subscriptions to apps. You're trying 111 00:06:28,120 --> 00:06:30,240 Speaker 1: to get people to spend more time with things like 112 00:06:30,440 --> 00:06:33,280 Speaker 1: iTunes or whatever it may be. But this trend that 113 00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:37,479 Speaker 1: you're seeing people shifting into not just software sales, but 114 00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:41,560 Speaker 1: you know, digital potentially ad based software sales is not 115 00:06:41,760 --> 00:06:44,680 Speaker 1: just native to Apple. We see Microsoft doubling down on this. 116 00:06:44,760 --> 00:06:48,400 Speaker 1: To remember, they acquired linked In and now making close 117 00:06:48,440 --> 00:06:51,719 Speaker 1: to two billion in advertising from LinkedIn. So I think 118 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:53,800 Speaker 1: you're right. I think that people are going to look 119 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:56,840 Speaker 1: at what's happening in Facebook competitors and say, how can 120 00:06:56,880 --> 00:06:59,320 Speaker 1: we learn from this, How can we potentially scoop up 121 00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:02,840 Speaker 1: some of that revenue by marketing. Our products is being 122 00:07:02,960 --> 00:07:06,920 Speaker 1: branded safe as being value based, and it's not just 123 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:09,440 Speaker 1: going to be your other digital players like Twitter and 124 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:12,280 Speaker 1: Google as you mentioned with Apple, it could also be 125 00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:16,120 Speaker 1: some of the more traditional you know, Harvard players are 126 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:18,800 Speaker 1: looking to get into software. That's been an opening here. 127 00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:23,520 Speaker 1: What about a potential pivot back to traditional mediums, non 128 00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:28,080 Speaker 1: digital platforms like radio and TV and out of home 129 00:07:28,320 --> 00:07:30,960 Speaker 1: And one of the things that we've been following is 130 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:35,320 Speaker 1: the need to find a one to one engagement and 131 00:07:35,960 --> 00:07:43,840 Speaker 1: going deeper into more contextual targeting, creating communities, building conversations. 132 00:07:44,360 --> 00:07:48,160 Speaker 1: What does that look like? Because I think this highlights, uh, 133 00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:51,880 Speaker 1: some of the issues in sort of mass digital scale 134 00:07:52,320 --> 00:07:57,080 Speaker 1: UM platforms. I definitely think that some of the traditional 135 00:07:57,840 --> 00:08:00,960 Speaker 1: ad platforms that are digitized thing or on the rucks 136 00:08:01,240 --> 00:08:03,200 Speaker 1: if you take a look at out of home. Out 137 00:08:03,240 --> 00:08:07,360 Speaker 1: of home has been growing year over year because billboards 138 00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:10,320 Speaker 1: and subway posters are all becoming digital and thus they 139 00:08:10,320 --> 00:08:13,240 Speaker 1: can be bought and sold programmatically. In fact, a lot 140 00:08:13,280 --> 00:08:15,520 Speaker 1: of those companies I think are going to thrive in 141 00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:19,800 Speaker 1: the driverless car era because they're so location based. As 142 00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:22,240 Speaker 1: the data that they have they will be able to 143 00:08:22,600 --> 00:08:26,920 Speaker 1: maximize through partnerships with other platforms. As far as where 144 00:08:27,360 --> 00:08:30,960 Speaker 1: other of traditional media platforms are going, I mean, the 145 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:33,800 Speaker 1: same thing is happening with TV. It's becoming more addressable, 146 00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:37,360 Speaker 1: it's going over the top, and so eventually you'll find 147 00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:40,880 Speaker 1: a world in which all television advertising is bought and 148 00:08:40,920 --> 00:08:45,640 Speaker 1: sold programmatically, and I think that people will be shifting 149 00:08:45,640 --> 00:08:48,800 Speaker 1: their dollars there. Radio is an interesting one that I 150 00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:51,720 Speaker 1: am curious to see what happens, and that's because as 151 00:08:51,720 --> 00:08:56,520 Speaker 1: we're seeing with revenue trends and user trends, terrestrial terrestrial 152 00:08:56,640 --> 00:09:02,040 Speaker 1: radio is having a tough time. Streaming podcasts, those are 153 00:09:02,080 --> 00:09:06,040 Speaker 1: doing very well, but regular radio that you're listening to 154 00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:10,280 Speaker 1: their car is not experiencing as much growth simply because 155 00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:13,440 Speaker 1: people are tuning into digital alternatives. So my long answer 156 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:17,320 Speaker 1: if you're short question is anything that's going digital, people 157 00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:20,439 Speaker 1: will invest their dollars there. But if you're not innovating 158 00:09:20,480 --> 00:09:23,360 Speaker 1: and going digital, you're just those traditional ad mediums. We're 159 00:09:23,360 --> 00:09:26,920 Speaker 1: not going to exceed dollar spite. It's every ad medium 160 00:09:27,080 --> 00:09:30,280 Speaker 1: that is a digital medium at risk for the type 161 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:33,200 Speaker 1: of fraud and the type of issues that we've seen 162 00:09:33,360 --> 00:09:37,200 Speaker 1: on a scale like Facebook. Absolutely, I'm gonna be writing 163 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:40,600 Speaker 1: about this uh in my newsletter that connected TV is 164 00:09:40,640 --> 00:09:43,520 Speaker 1: basically an ad fraud scheme right now, anytime you're not 165 00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:46,640 Speaker 1: buying one to one, you're not buying direct. You have 166 00:09:46,760 --> 00:09:50,200 Speaker 1: a broken supply chain, you have middlemen that make you 167 00:09:50,280 --> 00:09:54,800 Speaker 1: more susceptible to fraud schemes and to complications, and so 168 00:09:54,920 --> 00:10:01,080 Speaker 1: I would absolutely anticipate that as more advertising goes automated, 169 00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:06,040 Speaker 1: you're gonna just have an increase in fraud and increasing complications. 170 00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:09,200 Speaker 1: The good news is though, that I think more and 171 00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:12,800 Speaker 1: more people are starting to look at programmatic direct, which 172 00:10:12,840 --> 00:10:16,360 Speaker 1: is where you use programmatic infrastructure to target ads, but 173 00:10:16,440 --> 00:10:19,400 Speaker 1: you're still selling them one on one. You see this 174 00:10:19,440 --> 00:10:22,079 Speaker 1: with ad vendors using something called ad dot t f T. 175 00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:26,920 Speaker 1: While this isn't totally direct, it's essentially saying to the publishers, 176 00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:29,240 Speaker 1: you have to pre approve the vendors that are you're 177 00:10:29,240 --> 00:10:31,720 Speaker 1: going to be working with. And I think steps like 178 00:10:31,800 --> 00:10:35,600 Speaker 1: that will help reduce fraud. But it's something that the 179 00:10:35,640 --> 00:10:38,560 Speaker 1: industry is always going to have to monitor as more 180 00:10:38,640 --> 00:10:41,600 Speaker 1: ad mediums move digital. So you were just talking about 181 00:10:42,040 --> 00:10:45,680 Speaker 1: the idea of TV becoming addressable, or that all television 182 00:10:45,720 --> 00:10:49,800 Speaker 1: advertising has the potential to become automated. Are we at 183 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:54,240 Speaker 1: all worried about the backlash that that creates. I think 184 00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:56,920 Speaker 1: some of the things that we've heard in the market, 185 00:10:56,960 --> 00:11:01,440 Speaker 1: and going to Lyndia Karino's State of the Industry forum 186 00:11:01,520 --> 00:11:04,480 Speaker 1: last year was around the idea that a few or 187 00:11:04,520 --> 00:11:10,000 Speaker 1: more contextual ads presents, you know, a more favorable experience 188 00:11:10,480 --> 00:11:14,480 Speaker 1: for consumers. Are you hearing anything around that and do 189 00:11:14,480 --> 00:11:17,760 Speaker 1: you think that that could create a larger pushback in 190 00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:22,160 Speaker 1: that it kicks over to the subscription side. Yeah, I 191 00:11:22,160 --> 00:11:25,319 Speaker 1: think so. I think we'll consumer hate advertising. That's why 192 00:11:25,400 --> 00:11:28,680 Speaker 1: subscription based platforms are on the rise. That's why Netflix 193 00:11:28,720 --> 00:11:31,679 Speaker 1: do so well is because we've become a tuned, especially 194 00:11:31,679 --> 00:11:35,240 Speaker 1: younger generations, to to add out. We don't want to 195 00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:38,280 Speaker 1: have to be bothered by them. The problem is that 196 00:11:38,360 --> 00:11:42,560 Speaker 1: once you do get to an era where we are 197 00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:47,240 Speaker 1: all attached to five G, where streaming becomes the default 198 00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:51,720 Speaker 1: because linear is too slow, there is going to be 199 00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:55,360 Speaker 1: a fundamental shift in how television advertising is purchased. Right now, 200 00:11:55,360 --> 00:11:59,720 Speaker 1: about ten of television advertising is bought through advanced channels, 201 00:11:59,720 --> 00:12:02,160 Speaker 1: what a be programmatic or addressable or a little o 202 00:12:02,280 --> 00:12:05,600 Speaker 1: t T expect that in the coming years to shift 203 00:12:05,679 --> 00:12:09,560 Speaker 1: closer to one hundred, and when it does, you as 204 00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:12,319 Speaker 1: a marketer are not going to be able to necessarily 205 00:12:12,400 --> 00:12:16,360 Speaker 1: buy that massive scale ads day parted the way that 206 00:12:16,400 --> 00:12:18,440 Speaker 1: you used to, and you're just going to have to 207 00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:21,360 Speaker 1: adjust now. I do think that the market will adjust 208 00:12:21,720 --> 00:12:25,560 Speaker 1: a little bit itself, meaning that even though there are 209 00:12:25,600 --> 00:12:27,520 Speaker 1: going to be a lot of opportunities to target people 210 00:12:27,520 --> 00:12:29,640 Speaker 1: in a really niche way, there's still going to be 211 00:12:29,679 --> 00:12:33,719 Speaker 1: opportunities to hit people cheaply for a big scale buy. 212 00:12:34,240 --> 00:12:35,920 Speaker 1: I don't know exactly what that's going to look like 213 00:12:35,960 --> 00:12:38,319 Speaker 1: because we haven't really seen it yet. You know, addressable 214 00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:41,520 Speaker 1: still so small, but I think that eventually, for people 215 00:12:41,880 --> 00:12:45,000 Speaker 1: who need to market goods at scale, the opportunity will 216 00:12:45,040 --> 00:12:47,800 Speaker 1: be there. How do you think that impacts the creative 217 00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:52,040 Speaker 1: industry right? Because the types of ads in the digital space, 218 00:12:52,120 --> 00:12:54,760 Speaker 1: there's the nimbleness and the ability to shift in that 219 00:12:54,880 --> 00:12:58,040 Speaker 1: sort of creative development. But when it comes to creating 220 00:12:58,160 --> 00:13:03,679 Speaker 1: something on air, typically the process is much more complex. 221 00:13:03,840 --> 00:13:07,520 Speaker 1: Do you think that you know, agencies in particular, and 222 00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:11,160 Speaker 1: our content studio sitting within, you know, networks and publishers 223 00:13:11,920 --> 00:13:15,079 Speaker 1: have to think about what that creative world looks like, 224 00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:19,120 Speaker 1: oh absolutely. I mean there's two big things here. The 225 00:13:19,120 --> 00:13:22,120 Speaker 1: first is that digital allows you to optimize in real time. 226 00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:25,560 Speaker 1: You could do a small test buy on digital, see 227 00:13:25,679 --> 00:13:29,320 Speaker 1: which creatives work for which audiences, and optimize and change 228 00:13:29,320 --> 00:13:31,080 Speaker 1: your creative. And by the way, there will be a 229 00:13:31,080 --> 00:13:34,000 Speaker 1: time when AI will help you optimize your creative. You 230 00:13:34,040 --> 00:13:36,200 Speaker 1: can swap in the color of a sweater or the 231 00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:39,240 Speaker 1: tone of somebody's voice to make it more appealing. I 232 00:13:39,280 --> 00:13:41,679 Speaker 1: think too, if you're a brand, you've had to worry 233 00:13:41,679 --> 00:13:45,240 Speaker 1: about making sure that you're advertising is household friendly and 234 00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:49,000 Speaker 1: family friendly. And I think you know, addressable advertising is 235 00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:51,000 Speaker 1: going to mean that you can target your creative a 236 00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:53,719 Speaker 1: little bit more acutely. And even if you look at 237 00:13:54,440 --> 00:13:57,320 Speaker 1: some grants who are trying to make sure that their 238 00:13:57,400 --> 00:14:00,960 Speaker 1: product is marketed in a way that's appeasing to the 239 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:03,120 Speaker 1: whole family, they might not have to worry about it 240 00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:05,800 Speaker 1: as much in a DPC world. So I do think 241 00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:08,160 Speaker 1: you're right that creative will adapt and change to be 242 00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:11,400 Speaker 1: more customized and to be less focused on pleasing every 243 00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:14,400 Speaker 1: single member of the family because they're going to have 244 00:14:14,440 --> 00:14:16,840 Speaker 1: the opportunity to target a little bitter. Do you think 245 00:14:16,920 --> 00:14:19,600 Speaker 1: that you know, brands like maybe the P and G 246 00:14:19,840 --> 00:14:22,240 Speaker 1: S and the Nest Lease and the Mars and all 247 00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:25,280 Speaker 1: those folks that are looking for scale will also start 248 00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:28,720 Speaker 1: using addressable to do more testing. Yeah, I mean I 249 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:31,160 Speaker 1: think that pretty much what's going to happen is that 250 00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:33,720 Speaker 1: people right now the way, especially if you talk to 251 00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:37,560 Speaker 1: political campaigns, you use digital as last you see what 252 00:14:37,640 --> 00:14:41,680 Speaker 1: creative resonates, and then you apply those learnings to traditional 253 00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:45,120 Speaker 1: media so GEO, t V or you know, television. I 254 00:14:45,120 --> 00:14:47,520 Speaker 1: wouldn't surprise me if you start to see the opposite 255 00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:50,320 Speaker 1: happen as well, where now that the barrier to entry 256 00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:53,080 Speaker 1: for television comes way down, more people can afford advertising 257 00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:56,960 Speaker 1: on TV, people will use addressable TV AD budgets to 258 00:14:57,080 --> 00:15:00,640 Speaker 1: test and optimize for digital platforms or O T T 259 00:15:00,840 --> 00:15:03,320 Speaker 1: or whatever it might be. So I definitely think that's 260 00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:04,920 Speaker 1: coming down the pike. I think at the end of 261 00:15:04,920 --> 00:15:08,360 Speaker 1: the day, everything goes digital AD medium that was ever 262 00:15:08,440 --> 00:15:12,200 Speaker 1: traditional becomes digital or dies or devolved to be something 263 00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:15,400 Speaker 1: that's more digital like, and eventually you're going to be 264 00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:19,080 Speaker 1: able to save your planner. I want a test budget 265 00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:22,880 Speaker 1: across medium. Here's a hundred thousand dollars to test and 266 00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:24,960 Speaker 1: then you can funnel down and say, all right, well, 267 00:15:25,520 --> 00:15:29,600 Speaker 1: this digital ad performs really well on streaming, this digital 268 00:15:29,640 --> 00:15:34,080 Speaker 1: ads performed really well on digital billboards, and you'll be 269 00:15:34,120 --> 00:15:37,400 Speaker 1: able to narrow down which mediums you spend with after 270 00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:40,240 Speaker 1: doing a one broad digital test. I think that's the future. 271 00:15:40,640 --> 00:15:42,760 Speaker 1: One note on that, though, I think is interesting is 272 00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:45,680 Speaker 1: that you know, for print it's still a place where 273 00:15:46,280 --> 00:15:49,760 Speaker 1: even digital brands take out full page ads to make 274 00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:52,080 Speaker 1: a statement when you think about the number of brands 275 00:15:52,160 --> 00:15:55,280 Speaker 1: asking for more experiential and how I would think about 276 00:15:55,280 --> 00:15:57,760 Speaker 1: it from a planning standpoint is moving to a place 277 00:15:57,760 --> 00:16:01,320 Speaker 1: where there's complementary offline online builds, where all of a 278 00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:03,560 Speaker 1: sudden we move away from channel planning and we start 279 00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:07,760 Speaker 1: thinking about ecosystem I think that's right. I we read 280 00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:10,120 Speaker 1: a poll for Actis a couple of days ago and 281 00:16:10,160 --> 00:16:14,880 Speaker 1: it basically suggested that more people are craving in person communication, 282 00:16:15,400 --> 00:16:17,400 Speaker 1: and I think the same thing is happening with marketing. 283 00:16:17,640 --> 00:16:22,320 Speaker 1: You have niche efficiency buys that are low funnel and digital, 284 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:24,800 Speaker 1: and because everything is going digital, everything moves to low 285 00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:28,440 Speaker 1: funnel on digital and then you use what was top 286 00:16:28,480 --> 00:16:33,640 Speaker 1: of the funnel, so you're broad based television targeting or 287 00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:39,040 Speaker 1: newspaper ads they still exist in some cases, or quite frankly, 288 00:16:39,080 --> 00:16:43,080 Speaker 1: top of the funnel totally evolved into something way more experiential. 289 00:16:43,160 --> 00:16:47,040 Speaker 1: So I remember Giant spoon Wire your agency did a 290 00:16:47,160 --> 00:16:51,480 Speaker 1: live PD ad with Mass Mutual during New Year's V Right, 291 00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:54,360 Speaker 1: that is something that marketers would need to thought about 292 00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:56,640 Speaker 1: a couple of years ago. But we have to put 293 00:16:56,720 --> 00:16:59,880 Speaker 1: so much more emphasis on top of the funnel experiential 294 00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:04,120 Speaker 1: now that everything is going digital and everything is moving 295 00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:06,400 Speaker 1: to the bottom of the funnel. And so what does 296 00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:08,000 Speaker 1: top of the funnel mean. I mean, it could be 297 00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:10,479 Speaker 1: an experiential at on New Year's e it could be 298 00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:17,119 Speaker 1: a massive billboard in times square are functionality, Yes, a 299 00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:21,760 Speaker 1: newspaper takeover if people are still reading newspapers. It's anything 300 00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:24,679 Speaker 1: that exactly has high level impact. And I think we 301 00:17:24,840 --> 00:17:27,600 Speaker 1: spend so much time talking about what the bottom of 302 00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:30,440 Speaker 1: that funnel is going to look like, how everything's moving digital. 303 00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:32,920 Speaker 1: But you're right, we're not spending enough time thinking about 304 00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:35,600 Speaker 1: how this really changes the top of the funnel in 305 00:17:35,680 --> 00:17:37,639 Speaker 1: ways that we don't even know yet well. And the 306 00:17:37,680 --> 00:17:39,879 Speaker 1: idea that like an Alexa and I have spent our 307 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:45,000 Speaker 1: entire careers moving towards this non linear funnel, right, this 308 00:17:45,080 --> 00:17:48,320 Speaker 1: idea that marketing is layered in nuanced and how do 309 00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:52,080 Speaker 1: you have a mic drop complimented with you know, always 310 00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:57,000 Speaker 1: on media and being comfortable with the fact that people 311 00:17:57,040 --> 00:17:59,639 Speaker 1: are going to come into your brand however they want. 312 00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:02,800 Speaker 1: I think of one thing that's really interesting that you're implying, Sarah, 313 00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:05,760 Speaker 1: And we've talked a lot about this with folks like 314 00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:11,600 Speaker 1: Rachel Typograph, that marketers have underestimated the relationship between top 315 00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:14,320 Speaker 1: of the funnel and lower funnel, right, And I think 316 00:18:14,359 --> 00:18:18,040 Speaker 1: that that has fundamentally changed, but the market has actually 317 00:18:18,119 --> 00:18:22,440 Speaker 1: been slow um to adjust for that, and you're seeing 318 00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:26,600 Speaker 1: agencies and marketers actually shine through who understand it. So 319 00:18:26,640 --> 00:18:29,160 Speaker 1: I think it's a really interesting paradigm. Let's talk two 320 00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:31,440 Speaker 1: seconds that we want to hear more about Axios on 321 00:18:31,640 --> 00:18:35,720 Speaker 1: HBO speaking of traditional non traditional. Tell us more about 322 00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:39,240 Speaker 1: the show. The show has been an interesting experience for 323 00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:41,960 Speaker 1: everyone involved. I think one you take a bunch of 324 00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:45,560 Speaker 1: print journalists and you try to make something for television, 325 00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:49,640 Speaker 1: and you recognize your own strengths and weaknesses. And that's 326 00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:52,360 Speaker 1: important not just for us, because it's opening up our 327 00:18:52,359 --> 00:18:55,160 Speaker 1: eyes to how we could improve our storytelling. But it's 328 00:18:55,160 --> 00:18:58,320 Speaker 1: also I think good for HBO and other TV platforms 329 00:18:58,320 --> 00:19:01,960 Speaker 1: that are trying to understand how print or text based 330 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:05,640 Speaker 1: news UH sees the framing of news. For so long 331 00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:09,080 Speaker 1: on television, I would watch You Know Sixty Minutes or 332 00:19:09,240 --> 00:19:12,400 Speaker 1: a few other news shows try to tackle these very 333 00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:16,440 Speaker 1: serious but complicated topics for general American audience, and it's 334 00:19:16,480 --> 00:19:19,359 Speaker 1: hard to do it without dumbing it down. And we've 335 00:19:19,440 --> 00:19:23,000 Speaker 1: kind of approached the show with the perspective of there's 336 00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:26,360 Speaker 1: a way to tackle really high level issues that are 337 00:19:26,359 --> 00:19:29,560 Speaker 1: important to everyday Americans without having to dumb it down, 338 00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:34,480 Speaker 1: without having to address the biggest possible and whist audience. 339 00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:36,000 Speaker 1: And so I think that's part of why we went 340 00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:39,520 Speaker 1: with HBO. HBO consumers pay for that experience. It's a 341 00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:42,959 Speaker 1: premium cable channel and over the top experience, and our 342 00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:46,200 Speaker 1: assumption was that people would want something that would talk 343 00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:48,880 Speaker 1: about news of the day in a way that's sexy 344 00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:51,600 Speaker 1: and interesting but not dumb down, and so far, I 345 00:19:51,680 --> 00:19:54,040 Speaker 1: think it's working. I think some of the interviews that 346 00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:57,040 Speaker 1: we've had and made news we interviewed can cook. This 347 00:19:57,160 --> 00:20:00,240 Speaker 1: past episode, we interview Donald Trump, our first episode. I 348 00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:02,719 Speaker 1: think people like it so so far, the experience has 349 00:20:02,720 --> 00:20:05,639 Speaker 1: been wonderful. We're very grateful to HBO and all the 350 00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:08,080 Speaker 1: efforts that they're putting into it and everything that they're 351 00:20:08,119 --> 00:20:11,280 Speaker 1: teaching us about how we need to think about storytelling differently. 352 00:20:11,320 --> 00:20:13,520 Speaker 1: You know, we don't really think about the visual aspects 353 00:20:13,520 --> 00:20:16,080 Speaker 1: of all the time when we're writing stories. But now 354 00:20:16,119 --> 00:20:18,600 Speaker 1: we see the power of some of these visual mediums. 355 00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:21,400 Speaker 1: You know, we couldn't have walked through the Apple Garden 356 00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:25,480 Speaker 1: and see how they're planning a are through test, like 357 00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:28,280 Speaker 1: that's something we could have only done their videos. I 358 00:20:28,280 --> 00:20:31,000 Speaker 1: think for us, like we started the podcast because in 359 00:20:31,080 --> 00:20:33,359 Speaker 1: fact we didn't want to go with video. The point 360 00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:37,040 Speaker 1: is is also it's not just exploring new mediums, it's 361 00:20:37,080 --> 00:20:40,000 Speaker 1: also what is right for the story. I think a 362 00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:44,960 Speaker 1: lot of digital first media companies are starting to recognize 363 00:20:45,080 --> 00:20:51,080 Speaker 1: that these over the top partnerships they're they're actually high 364 00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:53,879 Speaker 1: level marketing vehicles. You listen to meritithal Loving and from 365 00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:56,640 Speaker 1: York Times on earnings casts, so tell you like their 366 00:20:56,680 --> 00:20:59,719 Speaker 1: partnerships with Effects or you know, wherever they're running their 367 00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:03,760 Speaker 1: tea shows. It's hyphonal branding. It's what's getting people who 368 00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:05,600 Speaker 1: didn't normally pick up a paper or go to your 369 00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:08,040 Speaker 1: own line exposed to you, and I think we are 370 00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:11,439 Speaker 1: thinking about it in the same way. So, Sarah, what 371 00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:14,560 Speaker 1: would you kill by d I y in the industry 372 00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:18,760 Speaker 1: as we close out? So from my kill, I wouldn't 373 00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:21,320 Speaker 1: say that I would absolutely kill this, but maybe I 374 00:21:21,320 --> 00:21:26,240 Speaker 1: could bend the rules and reevaluate my relationship and marketers 375 00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:29,200 Speaker 1: relationship with Facebook. Given some of the headlines that we've 376 00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:31,480 Speaker 1: been hearing, I think that it's only a matter of 377 00:21:31,560 --> 00:21:36,520 Speaker 1: time that their brand value becomes a risk with your 378 00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:40,040 Speaker 1: brand value. If you're choosing to put your money where 379 00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:44,120 Speaker 1: your mouth is and advocating for, you know, a transparent, 380 00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:49,280 Speaker 1: transactional marketplace, then Facebook right now doesn't seem to be 381 00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:52,240 Speaker 1: the best fit. But I understand that there's still a 382 00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:54,280 Speaker 1: lot of marketing value and that it might not be 383 00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:56,920 Speaker 1: easy to just pull every dollar. So I think I 384 00:21:56,960 --> 00:22:01,240 Speaker 1: would not necessarily kill but reevaluate our relationship with Facebook 385 00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:04,080 Speaker 1: when it comes to add them. Okay, what would you buy? 386 00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:08,800 Speaker 1: I would buy into anyone who's doing sports betting media. 387 00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:11,960 Speaker 1: We just did a big set on this with active 388 00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:16,640 Speaker 1: sports betting is going to explode. It's going to become 389 00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:20,480 Speaker 1: a massive part of both media and sports revenue. And 390 00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:23,359 Speaker 1: for those like I think about draft kings that are 391 00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:27,240 Speaker 1: starting to create shows, CBS doing the same thing about 392 00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:29,919 Speaker 1: how where you should be putting bets, the same thing 393 00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:32,679 Speaker 1: with fantasy. By the way, that is a smart investment. 394 00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:35,600 Speaker 1: It's only going to spike more states are going to 395 00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:40,359 Speaker 1: approve legislation that allows you to gamble. That's where I 396 00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:44,639 Speaker 1: would invest. What would you do yourself? I think, especially 397 00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:47,760 Speaker 1: ahead of the holiday season, there's a lot of books 398 00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:49,520 Speaker 1: that I want to read, and I think that we 399 00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:52,040 Speaker 1: should all be reading a little bit more. And that's 400 00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:54,240 Speaker 1: the one thing I want to do myself is take 401 00:22:54,359 --> 00:22:59,439 Speaker 1: some time to reflect, slow down and just you know, 402 00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:01,840 Speaker 1: dive in to some really good books, especially once about 403 00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:03,919 Speaker 1: the industry. You know, kind of a lot of had 404 00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:05,920 Speaker 1: that really great book front of these I think I 405 00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:08,960 Speaker 1: want to pick it back up again, just to help 406 00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:11,919 Speaker 1: me unwind and be more effective. So book clubs starting 407 00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:15,040 Speaker 1: nineteen with Sarah Fisher. We'll have to come put the 408 00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:19,320 Speaker 1: name for this, Sara Fisher. Happy Thanksgiving, Happy Thanksgiving. Thankful 409 00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:23,159 Speaker 1: for you. Yes we are in this industry. Talk to 410 00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:28,160 Speaker 1: you soon, Bye bye, Thank you for coming back. Sara, 411 00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:32,200 Speaker 1: always so impressive, always so on top of what's going 412 00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:34,560 Speaker 1: on in the industry. It's such a clear kind of view. 413 00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:36,680 Speaker 1: And we've got to get you to the five timers 414 00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:39,639 Speaker 1: because now you're at the three time check four and 415 00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:41,960 Speaker 1: five is on its way, and I think we should 416 00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:46,200 Speaker 1: start this book club with Sara Fisher. It's a great idea. Anyway, 417 00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:49,359 Speaker 1: we hope badly and you have an amazing Thanksgiving friends 418 00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:52,520 Speaker 1: and family, take some time off the screen, get advice 419 00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:55,360 Speaker 1: from Sarah Fisher, read a good book, industry or not, 420 00:23:55,880 --> 00:23:58,399 Speaker 1: and we will be talking to you in another couple 421 00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:01,359 Speaker 1: of weeks. Big thanks for our producer Diana, Big thanks 422 00:24:01,359 --> 00:24:04,600 Speaker 1: to all of our friends and family at Panoply. Happy Thanksgiving, 423 00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:12,320 Speaker 1: gobble gobble m h Full disclosure. Our opinions are our own. H.