WEBVTT - Are there Benefits to Procrastinating? 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:02.960 Guess what will what's that go? So I think you 0:00:03.040 --> 0:00:06.040 know I'm a procrastinator. Yeah, I'm pretty sure I know 0:00:06.120 --> 0:00:08.479 that at this point. Yeah, I'm the sort of person 0:00:08.520 --> 0:00:12.080 who always does my research immediately or like buy supplies 0:00:12.080 --> 0:00:14.320 ahead of time because I like to be prepared. And 0:00:14.360 --> 0:00:17.480 then traditionally I tend to wait till the last minute 0:00:17.520 --> 0:00:20.360 to write my essays or whatever. Actually, I like that 0:00:20.400 --> 0:00:22.159 story you told me about how your parents kind of 0:00:22.200 --> 0:00:25.360 conditioned you to become a procrastinator. Yeah, So when I 0:00:25.400 --> 0:00:28.840 was a kid, for like book reports or dioramas or whatever, like, 0:00:29.120 --> 0:00:31.600 it was always the same. I I just wait till 0:00:31.680 --> 0:00:33.839 the last minute, and then my parents would stay up 0:00:33.880 --> 0:00:36.640 with me, and since I was up, they'd make or 0:00:36.720 --> 0:00:39.600 order pizza, and then it'd be like nine or nine 0:00:39.680 --> 0:00:43.120 thirty and like Mystery was on PBS, so we'd stay 0:00:43.159 --> 0:00:46.160 up to watch the Sherlock Holmes with my mom, and uh, 0:00:46.479 --> 0:00:48.480 you know, since I was up, they'd also like open 0:00:48.520 --> 0:00:50.560 a box of ice cream and we eat that together. 0:00:50.640 --> 0:00:53.480 And then in the morning, like my little sister would 0:00:53.520 --> 0:00:55.600 wake up and see a pizza box and an ice 0:00:55.680 --> 0:00:59.400 cream carton and be like, you had another party without me. 0:01:00.920 --> 0:01:04.040 That's great. So I mean, I both hate that I'm 0:01:04.040 --> 0:01:06.960 a procrastinator and I really love staying up late and 0:01:07.120 --> 0:01:09.640 sort of that thrill of rushing to a deadline. And 0:01:09.959 --> 0:01:12.160 Metal Foss used to feel like that to me. We'd 0:01:12.200 --> 0:01:14.280 rushed to close an issue of the magazine and it 0:01:14.400 --> 0:01:18.520 was just so fun. But I'm curious about procrastination, like 0:01:18.680 --> 0:01:21.520 what makes us do it? Why do we brag about it? 0:01:21.760 --> 0:01:24.400 And who are the greatest procrastinators in history? And that's 0:01:24.400 --> 0:01:47.760 what we're gonna find out today. Let's dive in. Hey, 0:01:47.800 --> 0:01:50.360 their podcast listeners, welcome to Part Time Genius. I'm Will 0:01:50.400 --> 0:01:52.600 Pearson and as always I'm joined by my good friend 0:01:52.600 --> 0:01:55.920 Manguesh Ticketer and sitting behind that soundproof glass with a 0:01:55.960 --> 0:01:59.360 bottle of noos, a stack of bullet journals. What is 0:01:59.360 --> 0:02:02.720 that a pot Medoro timer and a pair of blinders. 0:02:02.760 --> 0:02:05.600 I mean, this guy is so serious about never losing 0:02:05.680 --> 0:02:09.000 his focus. That's our friend and producer Tristan McNeil. I 0:02:09.040 --> 0:02:13.080 know Tristan loves to hit deadlines. He is ruthless about 0:02:13.120 --> 0:02:16.720 not procrastinating. But you know, speaking of procrastination, we've got 0:02:16.760 --> 0:02:19.480 Andrew Santela on the program. Now. Andrews, the author of 0:02:19.520 --> 0:02:22.760 a wonderful new book. It's called Soon, An Overdue History 0:02:22.760 --> 0:02:26.400 of Procrastination from Leonardo and Darwin to you and me. 0:02:26.919 --> 0:02:29.239 Welcome to part time genius Andrew, Well, thank you. Thanks 0:02:29.280 --> 0:02:31.520 for having me. All right, so let's get right to 0:02:31.600 --> 0:02:33.400 it that you you've said you wrote this book on 0:02:33.440 --> 0:02:37.440 procrastination not to end your habit, but actually to excuse it, 0:02:37.520 --> 0:02:40.400 which is pretty wonderful. So can you tell us a 0:02:40.400 --> 0:02:42.480 little bit about how you decided to write this book 0:02:42.480 --> 0:02:46.480 and where the idea came about. Yeah, I was motivated 0:02:46.760 --> 0:02:51.839 almost entirely by self interest. Um, you know, I knew 0:02:51.880 --> 0:02:54.720 I had this lifelong procrastination habit, and I thought if 0:02:54.720 --> 0:02:57.600 I dove deepen up into the history of the thing, 0:02:58.280 --> 0:03:00.280 I might find some you know, little cur all of 0:03:00.280 --> 0:03:03.320 information that would justify my habit, that would excuse it 0:03:03.919 --> 0:03:06.560 and uh make me feel a little less bad about it. 0:03:08.600 --> 0:03:11.600 So I I think you reade that of us are 0:03:11.720 --> 0:03:15.160 chronic procrastinators. And uh, I think it's like a third 0:03:15.160 --> 0:03:18.480 of college students identify as procrastinators. And I was curious, 0:03:18.760 --> 0:03:21.000 why do you think it is that people just love 0:03:21.080 --> 0:03:24.320 to brag about being procrastinators? That is one of the 0:03:24.320 --> 0:03:30.400 most fascinating phenomenon connected to procrastination. If you ask me, um, 0:03:30.400 --> 0:03:32.840 when I would tell people I was working on a 0:03:32.840 --> 0:03:36.839 book about procrastination, almost always the response would be, oh, 0:03:36.920 --> 0:03:39.800 that's the book for me. I'm the world's worst procrastinator 0:03:40.320 --> 0:03:43.640 or I'm a terrible procrastinator. I've got to read that book. 0:03:43.920 --> 0:03:47.160 And I was noticing, like all the language was very judgmental, 0:03:47.480 --> 0:03:52.240 terrible and the worst, all those sorts of uh characterizations. 0:03:52.280 --> 0:03:54.640 So people were clearly ashamed about their habit, but they're 0:03:54.680 --> 0:03:57.920 also bragging to me about there there was this weird 0:03:58.040 --> 0:04:00.680 sort of perverse pride in there in there in their 0:04:00.760 --> 0:04:04.920 terrible habits. And I recognize that in myself. M I 0:04:04.960 --> 0:04:09.320 think even people who aren't such bad procrastinators, I want 0:04:09.360 --> 0:04:13.200 to call themselves really bad procrastinators. And and I think 0:04:13.240 --> 0:04:17.360 we've been really conditioned to to feel bad every time 0:04:17.400 --> 0:04:20.359 we aren't at our most efficient. It's a it's a 0:04:20.400 --> 0:04:23.800 strange thing. Yeah, it's definitely a strange thing. And so 0:04:23.800 --> 0:04:25.720 so we should definitely get to the cure here, though, 0:04:25.760 --> 0:04:28.880 So can you talk to us about Saint Expedite So 0:04:29.040 --> 0:04:31.800 the quick lives of the Saints version is that he 0:04:31.920 --> 0:04:35.080 was supposed to have been a Roman centurion in the 0:04:35.080 --> 0:04:39.520 fourth century who was not a man of faith, but 0:04:39.600 --> 0:04:43.560 one day decided to accept the Christian faith. But he 0:04:43.640 --> 0:04:45.840 was visited, and this is the really good part here. 0:04:45.880 --> 0:04:50.080 He was visited by a talking crow. And I know 0:04:50.200 --> 0:04:53.320 we've all been there, the talk and crows that they have, 0:04:53.640 --> 0:04:55.320 you know, Expedite, just why don't want to hold on 0:04:55.400 --> 0:04:58.960 a second? Uh? The rush? Why don't you think about 0:04:58.960 --> 0:05:01.360 it before you dive into this and make sure you're 0:05:01.400 --> 0:05:04.320 doing the right thing. You can always do it tomorrow, um, 0:05:04.360 --> 0:05:07.640 and Expedite, tempted as he was by the by the 0:05:07.680 --> 0:05:12.080 opportunity to put off his conversion, decided that no, this 0:05:12.160 --> 0:05:15.760 was the devil talking through the crow, and he actually 0:05:16.000 --> 0:05:18.080 killed the crow. He stomped the crow to death. According 0:05:18.160 --> 0:05:20.800 the legend, when you see a statute of Saint Expedite, 0:05:20.839 --> 0:05:24.040 now he's almost always shown in his Roman centary on 0:05:24.080 --> 0:05:26.560 outfit stepping on a crow, and you know at his 0:05:26.560 --> 0:05:29.440 feet there's a dead there's a dead crow breathing his 0:05:29.520 --> 0:05:34.640 last and I know it's gruesome. Expedite a banner that 0:05:34.680 --> 0:05:38.000 says hoodier, which is the Latin word for today. So 0:05:38.080 --> 0:05:41.320 he is this the emblem of promptness in certitude. The 0:05:41.400 --> 0:05:44.440 real interesting thing about that story though, for me, is 0:05:44.440 --> 0:05:47.560 that it is just a story. It's almost university agreed that, 0:05:47.600 --> 0:05:50.080 you know, he's a legend. His story might be based 0:05:50.080 --> 0:05:53.360 on many characters or something like that, but there was 0:05:53.520 --> 0:05:57.239 no historical saint Expedite. And that's really to me because 0:05:58.040 --> 0:06:01.400 it's like only only a only a fictional character could 0:06:01.400 --> 0:06:05.440 be that prompt and that for the rest of us, 0:06:05.480 --> 0:06:07.359 the rest of us, actual human beings, you know, we 0:06:07.760 --> 0:06:10.640 have to wrestle with our with our procrastination. Yeah, I 0:06:10.640 --> 0:06:13.880 mean saying Expedite sounds fictional, but that talking crow of 0:06:13.960 --> 0:06:17.880 it really sold me on the ship. You think, like, 0:06:17.920 --> 0:06:20.799 with a detail like that, it's got to be true, definitely. 0:06:21.680 --> 0:06:23.440 But well, what one of the things that was scurious 0:06:23.440 --> 0:06:26.920 about is how he's worshiped on Reunion Island. But would 0:06:26.960 --> 0:06:29.400 you talk a little bit about that. Yeah, So, in 0:06:29.560 --> 0:06:32.360 various places around the world there's you know, a pretty 0:06:32.400 --> 0:06:37.040 flourishing sort of devotional cult that you know, still Um 0:06:37.080 --> 0:06:42.200 you know sees Expedite and other saints as sort of mediators. 0:06:42.520 --> 0:06:46.120 When people need help, they will you know, ask to 0:06:46.240 --> 0:06:50.880 intercede on their behalf. Um. In Brazil, the feast day 0:06:50.880 --> 0:06:53.280 of set Expedite, which is coming up. I think it's 0:06:53.279 --> 0:06:56.400 April nineteenth, remember, and right, the feast day of St. 0:06:56.440 --> 0:06:59.360 Expedite is really a big deal. I mean a lot 0:06:59.400 --> 0:07:02.360 of the of the churches are filled with people, and um, 0:07:03.800 --> 0:07:07.520 this Reunion Island is is another place where where that 0:07:07.839 --> 0:07:13.160 devotion exists. People that build roadside shrines to expedite the 0:07:13.400 --> 0:07:16.400 little necessary prayers for him, asking for his help with 0:07:16.440 --> 0:07:20.840 certain problems. And uh, if they get his help and 0:07:20.960 --> 0:07:23.320 they get help with the problem, they leave him some 0:07:24.680 --> 0:07:28.160 uh you know, some some some treat and if they don't, 0:07:28.240 --> 0:07:30.320 they're supposed to lop off the head of the statue. 0:07:30.800 --> 0:07:34.240 And which explains why there's a lot of headless expedite 0:07:34.240 --> 0:07:41.520 statues that so much in the United States, there's pretty 0:07:41.560 --> 0:07:45.080 much the only place where that sort of devotion is 0:07:45.080 --> 0:07:48.680 still practices in the area around New Orleans. There's a church, 0:07:48.680 --> 0:07:52.920 Our Lady of Gladaloupe Church just outside, yeah, the French 0:07:53.040 --> 0:07:57.040 Quarter on Rampart Street, where there's a statusy and expedite. 0:07:57.040 --> 0:07:58.920 And I went to visit and I saw from my 0:07:59.360 --> 0:08:03.160 from my own eye is h little bits of paper 0:08:03.200 --> 0:08:06.120 left at the foot of his statue intercessory prayers that 0:08:06.120 --> 0:08:08.040 people have scribbled out asking for his help with this 0:08:08.200 --> 0:08:10.760 or with that. Uh. And the local tradition is that 0:08:10.960 --> 0:08:13.280 you're supposed to leave a piece of pound cake for 0:08:13.720 --> 0:08:17.080 expedite as as a sort of token of your good, 0:08:17.280 --> 0:08:20.480 good good faith. Um, and I didn't. When the day 0:08:20.480 --> 0:08:22.320 I visited, I didn't see any pound cake. And the 0:08:22.400 --> 0:08:24.400 church was kind of dark and deserted, and it was 0:08:24.400 --> 0:08:26.800 a little spooky in there, and I was thinking, Jesus, 0:08:26.800 --> 0:08:32.559 that did he actually consume the pound cakes? There was 0:08:32.640 --> 0:08:35.360 no pound cake because father Tony, who's the parish priest, 0:08:35.720 --> 0:08:38.240 regularly cleans up and you know, collects the pound cake 0:08:38.320 --> 0:08:40.480 and puts it to good use. So that was there 0:08:40.520 --> 0:08:44.320 was there was a non supernatural explanation for that. I like, 0:08:44.559 --> 0:08:46.440 puts it to good use. I mean, pound cake is 0:08:46.840 --> 0:08:48.640 pretty delicious, so I have a feeling I know what 0:08:48.679 --> 0:08:51.760 Father Tony are doing with the pound cat had one 0:08:51.760 --> 0:08:54.000 more question about that, though, you you made more than 0:08:54.120 --> 0:08:57.160 one trip to saying expedite, right, it wasn't just the 0:08:57.200 --> 0:08:59.640 first trip. I'm not I'm I'm a little ashamed of that, 0:08:59.679 --> 0:09:01.640 but it's true. I went down with a friend who 0:09:01.720 --> 0:09:04.079 knew that if he didn't accompany me, I would never 0:09:04.160 --> 0:09:06.200 get down to New Orleans. I mean I I told him, 0:09:06.200 --> 0:09:07.920 I I should really get down to New Orleans for 0:09:07.960 --> 0:09:09.720 this book I'm writing, and there's there's something down there. 0:09:09.720 --> 0:09:11.600 I should see it and make a really great chapter. 0:09:11.720 --> 0:09:13.920 And you know, he knows me well enough, he's an 0:09:13.920 --> 0:09:16.000 old friend. He knows me well enough that that he 0:09:16.080 --> 0:09:18.160 knew I would down there and left to my own devices. 0:09:18.200 --> 0:09:20.560 So he insisted that we go together, and he had 0:09:20.600 --> 0:09:21.800 on the plane with me, and we went down to 0:09:21.800 --> 0:09:24.680 New Orleans and spent I think two days down there, 0:09:25.160 --> 0:09:28.120 and I did not a single bit of research and 0:09:28.200 --> 0:09:29.640 saying it, but I durned the two days I was 0:09:29.640 --> 0:09:33.720 in New Orleans. I didn't any uh, you know, I 0:09:33.800 --> 0:09:35.400 just there was a lot of other things to do 0:09:35.440 --> 0:09:38.080 in New Orleans. It's a very it's a very fun city. 0:09:38.200 --> 0:09:39.559 So I had to go back a second time. I 0:09:39.600 --> 0:09:41.480 was really shamed myself that I had to go back 0:09:41.520 --> 0:09:43.440 a second time, this time by myself. And I actually 0:09:43.520 --> 0:09:46.480 did talk to Father Tony and some other people about 0:09:46.520 --> 0:09:49.360 extra tonight. All right, let's move from talking about somebody 0:09:49.360 --> 0:09:52.760 who was legendary to some very real people in history, 0:09:52.840 --> 0:09:55.480 some famous procrastinators. But before we get to that, let's 0:09:55.480 --> 0:10:11.280 take a quick break. Welcome back to Part Time Genius. 0:10:11.280 --> 0:10:13.360 Were joined by Anderson tell of the author of the 0:10:13.400 --> 0:10:17.200 book Soon and Overdue History of Procrastination, From Leonardo and 0:10:17.320 --> 0:10:20.400 Darwin to you and me. Why don't we move from 0:10:20.440 --> 0:10:23.400 someone who may have been legend to some some true 0:10:23.520 --> 0:10:26.280 famous procrastinators. So can we talk a little bit about 0:10:26.320 --> 0:10:30.800 Charles Darwin? First? Darwin is probably the favorite of all 0:10:30.840 --> 0:10:34.680 the sort of historical figures that I encountered in working 0:10:34.679 --> 0:10:37.079 on the book. I really came to be a bond 0:10:37.120 --> 0:10:39.000 of him, you know, I mean, I always knew what 0:10:39.080 --> 0:10:41.520 an important figure he wasn't what a genius he was, 0:10:41.960 --> 0:10:45.280 but he also is just seems to have a really 0:10:45.320 --> 0:10:50.240 devoted family guy and sort of an odd bird and 0:10:50.440 --> 0:10:54.400 in a really charming way. The fact is, it took 0:10:54.520 --> 0:10:57.640 him more than two decades from the time when he 0:10:57.800 --> 0:11:01.079 sort of developed the germ of idea that is at 0:11:01.120 --> 0:11:04.520 the heart of natural selection and wrote up sort of 0:11:04.559 --> 0:11:10.520 that foundational idea in his private notebooks. It took him 0:11:10.800 --> 0:11:13.000 more than two decades from that point to the point 0:11:13.000 --> 0:11:16.520 where he actually published the landmark book on the Origin 0:11:16.559 --> 0:11:20.280 of species. And you know, I understand that science takes time. 0:11:20.679 --> 0:11:22.520 The fact is, during those two and a half decades, 0:11:22.559 --> 0:11:26.199 he did a lot of things that in retrospect seemed 0:11:27.240 --> 0:11:30.880 like maybe not great uses of his time. Um. And 0:11:30.920 --> 0:11:32.800 I think I think he did those things well. Like, 0:11:32.840 --> 0:11:36.800 for example, he had edited gardening magazine. He did voluminous 0:11:36.800 --> 0:11:41.240 research on earthworms. He did he became obsessed with barnacles. 0:11:41.600 --> 0:11:45.440 He had barnacles all over his house. Um, and you know, 0:11:45.480 --> 0:11:48.400 pickled in jars, and he was dissecting them and examining 0:11:48.440 --> 0:11:52.480 them and comparing different categories and parnacles. He was just he, 0:11:52.800 --> 0:11:56.120 by his own admission, obsessed with things, to the point 0:11:56.160 --> 0:11:58.560 where his kids grew up thinking like everyone lived like 0:11:58.600 --> 0:12:03.040 this with barnacles all over the house. When one of 0:12:03.120 --> 0:12:06.439 Darwin's boys went to visit a friend at a friend's house, 0:12:06.920 --> 0:12:08.880 he looked around and said, well, where does your father 0:12:08.920 --> 0:12:12.800 do his barnacles? He thought everyone had had you had 0:12:12.840 --> 0:12:16.319 a study full of particles. So you know, you wonder 0:12:16.800 --> 0:12:19.160 why was he not just plugging away on this book 0:12:19.160 --> 0:12:21.640 that he must have known would shake the world to 0:12:21.760 --> 0:12:27.120 its core, um, and instead was spending his time with worms. Um. 0:12:27.400 --> 0:12:30.440 You know, and I think he was ambivalent about the 0:12:30.480 --> 0:12:32.320 work he was doing in some ways. You know, he 0:12:32.400 --> 0:12:35.480 was the product of a very devout father who wanted 0:12:35.520 --> 0:12:38.480 him to go into the ministry, and you know, I 0:12:38.520 --> 0:12:44.280 think that background made him, especially you leery of undertaking 0:12:44.280 --> 0:12:48.240 this work that he knew would displace God in the 0:12:48.280 --> 0:12:52.160 world view of many um and so I think there 0:12:52.160 --> 0:12:54.600 are a lot of reasons why he was ambivalent about 0:12:54.600 --> 0:12:57.679 his work, and so I think that resulted in these 0:12:58.160 --> 0:13:01.040 detours that seemed odd to us, and even even for Darwin. 0:13:01.080 --> 0:13:03.520 He he admitted, I think I might have spentled m 0:13:03.760 --> 0:13:05.320 might have spent a little bit too long on those 0:13:05.320 --> 0:13:10.160 particles that but I think one of the things that's 0:13:10.200 --> 0:13:13.320 really interesting, though, is that he learned things from those 0:13:13.360 --> 0:13:18.360 detours that ended up informing his work on natural selection. 0:13:18.720 --> 0:13:22.440 Natural selection is all about small incremental changes that lead 0:13:22.520 --> 0:13:27.600 to large consequences, and earth worms really demonstrate that, and 0:13:27.800 --> 0:13:31.400 Darwin recognized that what he learned from the Barnacles informed 0:13:31.440 --> 0:13:34.360 his work on natural selection. And so I think his 0:13:34.400 --> 0:13:38.600 story is illustrative of how even the detours sometimes can 0:13:38.720 --> 0:13:43.079 lead us to some important understanding. And I think that's 0:13:43.120 --> 0:13:46.680 one of the interesting things about procrastination two, is that 0:13:46.800 --> 0:13:49.640 there's a lot of there's a lot of ways to 0:13:49.679 --> 0:13:52.760 get to understanding. Well, I think one of the other 0:13:52.760 --> 0:13:55.040 things that's interesting to me is that, and you point 0:13:55.040 --> 0:13:57.359 this out, is that there's so many ways to procrastinate, 0:13:57.440 --> 0:14:00.480 right like, from like obsessing over little things that aren't important, 0:14:00.559 --> 0:14:03.480 to like doing important things but you know, things that 0:14:03.520 --> 0:14:07.240 aren't important right now, like and in analyzing procrastinating, like, 0:14:07.280 --> 0:14:09.840 did you find that you're more prone to any one 0:14:09.920 --> 0:14:12.800 type or or that people tend to gravitate to one type? 0:14:13.880 --> 0:14:17.040 You know, I recognize and every you know, people who 0:14:17.160 --> 0:14:22.040 study this phenomenon um sort of for a living, you know, 0:14:22.080 --> 0:14:25.040 recognize that you could be really diligent certain things in 0:14:25.080 --> 0:14:28.920 your life about the housework or paying bills, um, and 0:14:29.160 --> 0:14:32.640 but a complete procrastinating slacker about other parts of you 0:14:32.800 --> 0:14:35.200 like maybe your your work deadlines or something like that, 0:14:35.360 --> 0:14:37.640 or or it could be in reverse. But so yes, 0:14:37.680 --> 0:14:41.080 there's I think, um, most of us have areas where 0:14:41.080 --> 0:14:44.640 we're diligent and one thing and and and not so 0:14:45.040 --> 0:14:48.560 in another. And I mean that just goes to illustrate how, 0:14:48.720 --> 0:14:52.200 you know, we're all divided selves and we all have 0:14:53.440 --> 0:14:57.160 these you know, parts of ourselves that that are sort 0:14:57.160 --> 0:15:00.160 of at war with each other. And I think all 0:15:00.600 --> 0:15:04.520 what happens when we're trying to resolve those wars is procrastination, 0:15:05.080 --> 0:15:07.080 you know. I think it's interesting that you note that 0:15:07.200 --> 0:15:11.320 Aristotle and Socrates had different philosophies on procrastination. And this 0:15:11.480 --> 0:15:13.920 idea of there's a word you have in the book. 0:15:13.920 --> 0:15:16.000 I wasn't familiar with it. Is it a crazy? How 0:15:16.000 --> 0:15:17.960 do you pronounce the word? Yeah? I think that's right 0:15:18.000 --> 0:15:20.840 acre maybe yeah, yeah, So you talk about this idea 0:15:20.840 --> 0:15:22.920 of a crazia, So can can you talk a little 0:15:22.920 --> 0:15:25.320 bit about this? So, yes, you're asking me to unpack 0:15:25.800 --> 0:15:28.480 ancient Greek philosophy. Is that is that if you don't mind, 0:15:28.560 --> 0:15:30.800 like let's say, let's say we give you, you know, 0:15:30.920 --> 0:15:33.200 five minutes to unpack the whole thing. I feel like 0:15:33.240 --> 0:15:37.200 that's reasonable. Uh. Yeah. So the question about a crazia 0:15:37.280 --> 0:15:41.120 is whether a rational person can knowingly do something that's 0:15:41.120 --> 0:15:44.240 bad for again for her. I mean, I don't think 0:15:44.240 --> 0:15:46.040 the ancient Greeks would have said or her, but I'll 0:15:46.080 --> 0:15:50.720 add that. Um So, in other words, if you're rational, 0:15:51.320 --> 0:15:52.920 why would you do something that you know is going 0:15:52.960 --> 0:15:56.359 to come back to bite you and later, like, for example, procrastinating, 0:15:56.360 --> 0:15:59.880 I mean, that's the definition of procrastination. Is to put 0:16:00.000 --> 0:16:02.920 off something that he used to be done, knowing that 0:16:03.000 --> 0:16:06.680 the delay will harm you at some will cost you 0:16:06.720 --> 0:16:09.880 at some point in the future. So if you're a 0:16:09.960 --> 0:16:14.000 rational person, why would you knowingly, UM, do something that 0:16:14.200 --> 0:16:18.120 will cost you in the future. Um. And if you're 0:16:18.200 --> 0:16:22.720 not rational, well then you're not um, you're not capable 0:16:22.720 --> 0:16:26.280 of knowing that. So so you know, I guess that's 0:16:26.320 --> 0:16:28.560 the debate. All right, we need to take one more 0:16:28.600 --> 0:16:30.160 quick break. But when we come back, I want to 0:16:30.160 --> 0:16:47.320 talk about to do lists. Welcome back to part time Genius. 0:16:47.920 --> 0:16:50.440 So I want to ask a couple of questions about 0:16:50.480 --> 0:16:52.280 to do list. I don't know about you, but I'm 0:16:52.320 --> 0:16:56.160 definitely a to do list maker. I love keeping lists around, 0:16:56.200 --> 0:16:58.680 and it's something that you know, we we seem to 0:16:58.680 --> 0:17:00.520 live in a society that's upset us with these to 0:17:00.600 --> 0:17:03.280 do list And it was funny you actually included Johnny 0:17:03.320 --> 0:17:05.679 Cash in the mix here. So can you talk a 0:17:05.680 --> 0:17:09.280 little bit about to do list and your philosophy around them. Yeah. 0:17:09.320 --> 0:17:12.439 My philosophy of to do lists is that they're a 0:17:12.480 --> 0:17:15.800 great way to avoid actually doing the things on the list. 0:17:16.800 --> 0:17:20.080 That sounds about right. I spent so much time actually 0:17:20.119 --> 0:17:23.400 making the list that I find that you know, and 0:17:23.400 --> 0:17:26.720 and and I get such satisfaction from making the list, 0:17:27.080 --> 0:17:28.600 but I don't really feel like I need to do 0:17:28.600 --> 0:17:30.720 the things on the list. The other thing that happens 0:17:30.800 --> 0:17:33.440 is like I lose my list quite a lot um, 0:17:33.480 --> 0:17:35.440 you know. I make so many lists over the course 0:17:35.480 --> 0:17:37.160 of the day, you know, I leave them all over 0:17:37.200 --> 0:17:40.720 the place, and I'll lose them, and it's it's funny. 0:17:40.760 --> 0:17:42.399 They turn up maybe like a month later, you know, 0:17:43.000 --> 0:17:45.640 and they're still perfectly good because I haven't done any 0:17:48.080 --> 0:17:52.520 so it's there's still there's still valid and valuable. I 0:17:52.520 --> 0:17:56.080 think was our a dubious value to like actually getting 0:17:56.119 --> 0:17:58.479 things done, although actually getting things done was is not 0:17:58.560 --> 0:18:01.600 really the topic of interest for me in the book. 0:18:01.640 --> 0:18:03.639 It's not a how to book or a or a 0:18:03.640 --> 0:18:06.080 self help book. But trying to understand why we make 0:18:06.160 --> 0:18:09.240 lists was of interest to me, and I came across 0:18:09.600 --> 0:18:16.920 really interesting stuff from the novelists and ceotation u Umberto Echo, 0:18:17.040 --> 0:18:21.640 who wrote at length about lists, and he theorized that 0:18:21.880 --> 0:18:25.680 we make lists because we're afraid to die. Lists are 0:18:25.960 --> 0:18:29.480 sort of a gesture at infinitude that you can never 0:18:29.840 --> 0:18:32.119 complete a list. There's always more to be added to 0:18:32.160 --> 0:18:36.080 a list and and um as as a as as 0:18:36.119 --> 0:18:39.680 an emblem of infinitude. Um they remind us of our 0:18:40.840 --> 0:18:43.359 by nitness and our and our mortality, and so we 0:18:43.400 --> 0:18:46.240 make lists. Echo said, because we're afraid to die. I 0:18:47.359 --> 0:18:51.520 totally buy into that idea, I think. I think so 0:18:51.600 --> 0:18:53.879 I'm basically I feel like anything I do I do 0:18:53.920 --> 0:18:58.720 because I'm afraid to die. Well, I I do like 0:18:58.840 --> 0:19:00.960 to that. I think you mentioned that a lot of 0:19:00.960 --> 0:19:03.360 people put things and I do this, like I'll put 0:19:03.400 --> 0:19:05.280 things on a list just to knock it off. And 0:19:05.320 --> 0:19:08.920 I think I think there's some link between that and 0:19:09.040 --> 0:19:11.280 my being a procrastinator, where I think I take a 0:19:11.320 --> 0:19:13.639 certain amount of pride in being able to hit the 0:19:13.640 --> 0:19:15.960 deadline even though I wait such a long time. Like 0:19:16.000 --> 0:19:19.560 I think that feeling of accomplishment from both things like 0:19:19.880 --> 0:19:23.679 somehow ties together. But you talk about Frank flood right 0:19:23.800 --> 0:19:25.800 and how he came up with the idea of falling 0:19:25.800 --> 0:19:28.960 water in just two hours, and I really love that story, 0:19:29.000 --> 0:19:31.040 I think as a procrastinator, so I was wondering if 0:19:31.040 --> 0:19:32.960 you could share that with us. I think a great 0:19:32.960 --> 0:19:35.480 way to get that Felium standard for actually knocking something 0:19:35.560 --> 0:19:38.440 up the list is to write the the most the 0:19:38.440 --> 0:19:41.800 most ridiculous things, in the most simplest things down as 0:19:42.119 --> 0:19:44.919 things to do that day, Like, for example, getting up 0:19:44.920 --> 0:19:46.560 and going to the bathroom would be something to put 0:19:46.560 --> 0:19:48.520 at the top of your list and it'd be done, 0:19:48.560 --> 0:19:50.760 you know, spread across it off and you've gotten one 0:19:50.800 --> 0:19:54.359 of the things off your list. That's all right, I know, 0:19:54.440 --> 0:19:56.040 I said. It wasn't a sub help, but that's my 0:19:56.119 --> 0:20:00.440 one pro go to the bathroom and and it down. 0:20:02.600 --> 0:20:07.480 Asked about point BOYD Right? Um So, frankly Right was 0:20:07.560 --> 0:20:13.800 asked to design a house outside Pittsburgh by one of 0:20:13.840 --> 0:20:16.840 his clients, and the house became what we know of 0:20:17.080 --> 0:20:22.359 falling Water was one of the great accomplishments of residential architecture. 0:20:23.359 --> 0:20:27.679 And um and and this, this commission came at a 0:20:27.680 --> 0:20:30.639 time when rights reputation was sort of in tatters. He 0:20:30.760 --> 0:20:35.640 was on the outside. This new wave of European Modernists 0:20:35.680 --> 0:20:39.960 were the end thing, and he was definitely a sort 0:20:39.960 --> 0:20:44.320 of a has been. And um this commission at the 0:20:44.359 --> 0:20:48.719 potential to resurrect his career, and of course Right did 0:20:48.760 --> 0:20:51.159 the only thing that a procrastinator could do. Given the 0:20:51.240 --> 0:20:55.800 chance to make such a splash, He put it off 0:20:56.280 --> 0:20:59.600 he just he han't gotten the commission put nothing down 0:20:59.640 --> 0:21:02.359 on paper for the longest time. And it was only 0:21:02.359 --> 0:21:05.280 when his client called and said, Hey, I'm gonna come 0:21:05.320 --> 0:21:07.640 by the studio tomorrow. I'd love to see those drawings 0:21:07.680 --> 0:21:11.000 he'd been working on that right, actually started working on 0:21:11.040 --> 0:21:14.120 those drawings he was supposed to be working on um 0:21:14.200 --> 0:21:18.000 And so this a legend sprung up partly, uh you know, 0:21:18.800 --> 0:21:21.919 disseminated by his students and his sort of his disciples, 0:21:21.960 --> 0:21:26.760 that that he scribbled out this designs for this master work, 0:21:27.280 --> 0:21:29.240 you know, at the very last minute, like as his 0:21:29.280 --> 0:21:32.720 client was waiting in the waiting room, he was finishing 0:21:32.760 --> 0:21:37.320 these these designs for falling water. And I mean it 0:21:37.480 --> 0:21:40.399 really could not have happened that way. His scholars degree. 0:21:40.440 --> 0:21:42.159 I mean, he must have had the ideas in his 0:21:42.200 --> 0:21:46.600 head or in some sort of you know, partially finished 0:21:47.680 --> 0:21:52.199 uh state, and then translated them to paper, you know, 0:21:52.600 --> 0:21:55.639 when he needed to. But it's interesting to me that 0:21:55.760 --> 0:21:59.879 his his students wanted to promote this legend of him 0:22:00.080 --> 0:22:04.000 procrastinating and and not being diligent, because you wouldn't think 0:22:04.000 --> 0:22:05.879 that would be something to be proud of. You wouldn't 0:22:05.880 --> 0:22:09.480 think that would add to your professional reputation. But in 0:22:09.640 --> 0:22:15.480 his student's mind, it was sort of a ah, proof 0:22:15.560 --> 0:22:18.200 of what a genius he was that he could I'm 0:22:18.240 --> 0:22:21.800 almost on demand just about the you know, ideas that 0:22:21.840 --> 0:22:26.240 would shape architecture to its core. And um, you know, 0:22:26.280 --> 0:22:29.119 I think so that's his His stories is a lesson 0:22:29.160 --> 0:22:35.280 and how we sometimes attribute genius to or connect procrastination 0:22:35.320 --> 0:22:40.800 the genius in a sort of not entirely valid way. So, Andrew, 0:22:40.840 --> 0:22:43.040