WEBVTT - Meditation is Portable 0:00:08.640 --> 0:00:11.480 This is the Anxiety Bites podcast, and I am your host, 0:00:11.640 --> 0:00:17.040 Jen Kirkman. In my work life, I'm a comedian and 0:00:17.079 --> 0:00:19.640 a writer. But in my real life, what I think 0:00:19.640 --> 0:00:22.160 of myself as is someone who has had generalized anxiety 0:00:22.200 --> 0:00:27.000 disorder panic disorder undiagnosed for ten years, then diagnosed, and 0:00:27.320 --> 0:00:30.960 have had both for decades. I'm in a better place 0:00:31.000 --> 0:00:33.760 with all of it, and I have the time to 0:00:33.800 --> 0:00:36.160 try to help other people, just by talking to people 0:00:36.360 --> 0:00:38.519 who have a lot of answers for us, and by 0:00:38.560 --> 0:00:41.239 trying to normalize that it's okay to talk about this 0:00:41.320 --> 0:00:44.320 stuff and uh to even have fun doing it. So 0:00:44.400 --> 0:00:47.199 Sharon Salzburg, I cannot believe she said yes to doing 0:00:47.240 --> 0:00:50.239 this podcast. This is how great she is. This podcast 0:00:50.280 --> 0:00:53.519 had not premiered yet and she agreed to come on 0:00:53.600 --> 0:00:56.760 to be a guest. That's right, everybody, I'm letting you 0:00:56.800 --> 0:00:59.960 in behind the curtain. Some of these interviews were conduct 0:01:00.040 --> 0:01:02.240 did months before the premier date. But you know, she 0:01:02.280 --> 0:01:03.760 didn't know what she was getting herself into, and she 0:01:03.800 --> 0:01:05.840 said yes, and for that I love her. But I 0:01:05.840 --> 0:01:07.640 could just geek out on her all day. You'll hear 0:01:07.680 --> 0:01:09.760 that in the interview. But Sharon is the author of 0:01:09.800 --> 0:01:13.479 eleven books, including Loving Kindness, the New York Times bestseller 0:01:13.560 --> 0:01:17.560 Real Happiness, and her twenty seventeen book Real Love, The 0:01:17.680 --> 0:01:20.840 Art of Mindful Connection, and her newest book, Real Change, 0:01:21.240 --> 0:01:25.160 Mindfulness to Heal Ourselves in the World. In nineteen seventies, 0:01:25.160 --> 0:01:28.280 Sharon went to India for an independent study program, and 0:01:28.360 --> 0:01:31.720 she returned to America in nineteen seventy four and began 0:01:31.800 --> 0:01:36.959 teaching Vipasna insight meditation. In nineteen seventy six, she established, 0:01:37.000 --> 0:01:41.160 together with Joseph Goldstein and Jack Cornfield, the Insight Meditation 0:01:41.280 --> 0:01:45.080 Society in Barry, Massachusetts, which now ranks as one of 0:01:45.120 --> 0:01:49.040 the most prominent and active meditation centers in the Western world. 0:01:49.600 --> 0:01:53.000 Her meditations can be heard on the Insight Timer app. 0:01:53.440 --> 0:01:56.440 She's a frequent guest on the ten Percent Happier podcast, 0:01:56.560 --> 0:01:59.880 and she hosts her own podcast, The Meta Hour, which 0:02:00.000 --> 0:02:02.800 features over a hundred interviews with the top leaders and 0:02:02.880 --> 0:02:06.560 voices in the mindfulness and meditation movement. All of the 0:02:06.600 --> 0:02:09.280 info on how to find Sharon for free and to 0:02:09.400 --> 0:02:13.040 buy her work is in the show notes. So before 0:02:13.080 --> 0:02:15.160 we get to share, and I'll just I'll tell you 0:02:15.200 --> 0:02:18.240 what meditation means to me. Um, I'll never forget. A 0:02:18.240 --> 0:02:20.280 friend of mine asked me for advice on anxiety, and 0:02:20.280 --> 0:02:22.320 she said, but before you answer me, do not tell 0:02:22.360 --> 0:02:25.440 me to fucking meditate. And I know a lot of 0:02:25.440 --> 0:02:29.080 you listen. If you are still listening, despite the word 0:02:29.200 --> 0:02:32.920 meditation being in this week's show description, thank you. I 0:02:33.000 --> 0:02:36.360 know that because everyone is talking about it now that 0:02:36.400 --> 0:02:39.840 it can be overwhelming and annoying. You hear the words meditation, 0:02:40.040 --> 0:02:42.240 you hear the words mindfulness, and you're like, uh, you know. 0:02:42.560 --> 0:02:45.800 You scroll through Instagram, there are influencers talking about it. 0:02:45.800 --> 0:02:48.880 It just seems like the latest trend, and in a way, 0:02:49.760 --> 0:02:52.720 it is. But it doesn't mean that mindfulness and that 0:02:52.760 --> 0:02:56.359 meditation are trends and not to be taken seriously. It's 0:02:56.400 --> 0:02:59.400 the way they are being capitalized on in this moment 0:02:59.600 --> 0:03:02.680 that is very annoying. But if you can stick with us, 0:03:02.760 --> 0:03:05.240 you're going to be hearing from someone who really knows 0:03:05.520 --> 0:03:07.480 their ship. I couldn't think of a better way to 0:03:07.480 --> 0:03:09.920 put it. They know their ship. So I do meditate. 0:03:10.000 --> 0:03:12.280 It's one of the tools in my anxiety tool kit. 0:03:12.360 --> 0:03:14.320 I learned about it in the late ninety nineties from 0:03:14.360 --> 0:03:16.680 a therapist, and again I didn't even I've never heard 0:03:16.720 --> 0:03:18.840 the word mindful before. You know, it wasn't a buzzword yet. 0:03:18.880 --> 0:03:22.160 So I think I was a little more I'm not susceptible, 0:03:22.200 --> 0:03:23.880 but I was a little more open to it because 0:03:23.919 --> 0:03:27.200 I hadn't been bombarded. But before this, I thought meditation 0:03:27.320 --> 0:03:29.600 was a religion. I didn't even know that it had 0:03:29.639 --> 0:03:33.200 anything to do with going hand in hand with cognitive 0:03:33.240 --> 0:03:35.840 behavior therapy, or anything to do with psychology, or that 0:03:35.920 --> 0:03:38.520 it even had healthy physical effects on people. I had 0:03:38.520 --> 0:03:40.520 no idea. I just thought, oh, I don't know. People 0:03:40.520 --> 0:03:42.000 do it to get closer to God or something. I 0:03:42.040 --> 0:03:44.680 don't know. That's not my thing. And you know, obviously 0:03:44.720 --> 0:03:47.080 a lot of my anxiety comes from runaway thoughts that 0:03:47.200 --> 0:03:50.160 I don't even know that I'm thinking, and that's where 0:03:50.880 --> 0:03:54.640 meditation has helped me. Now it is a daily discipline. 0:03:54.680 --> 0:03:57.320 I do meditate ten minutes a day, and then sometimes 0:03:57.320 --> 0:04:00.240 I don't meditate at all. And on those days is 0:04:00.880 --> 0:04:03.560 there's never I'm never too busy. I always have ten minutes. 0:04:03.680 --> 0:04:05.560 You know, I had spent ten minutes on Twitter that 0:04:05.680 --> 0:04:09.120 day when I could have been meditating. But that's just 0:04:09.160 --> 0:04:11.280 how it is. It's one of those things where it 0:04:11.320 --> 0:04:14.080 can be impossible to work yourself up to, and then 0:04:14.120 --> 0:04:15.760 once you do it, it's like, what was the big deal? 0:04:16.680 --> 0:04:19.000 Why was I avoiding that all day? The thing is, 0:04:19.040 --> 0:04:21.760 I think people think that meditation is this thing you do. 0:04:21.800 --> 0:04:23.600 You know, you get your room all set up. You 0:04:23.600 --> 0:04:25.800 you've got the perfect candle in the perfect blanket, and 0:04:25.839 --> 0:04:28.480 you've got a white noise machine, and maybe you even 0:04:28.520 --> 0:04:31.000 bought a Buddha statue, and you know, I've got to 0:04:31.120 --> 0:04:34.360 feel in a spiritual mood to go meditate, and nobody 0:04:34.440 --> 0:04:36.640 wakes up in a spiritual mood. I don't even know 0:04:36.640 --> 0:04:38.719 if there's such a thing as a spiritual mood. But 0:04:39.640 --> 0:04:43.320 meditation is supposed to meet us where we are. Meditation 0:04:43.720 --> 0:04:46.080 doesn't want us to come to it in a flowing 0:04:46.560 --> 0:04:50.280 robe if that's not our normal, you know, daily attire. 0:04:50.640 --> 0:04:53.360 But the way I look at meditation is on our side. 0:04:53.880 --> 0:04:56.359 It's a practice that says to us, whatever you're thinking 0:04:56.400 --> 0:04:59.400 and feeling is totally normal, and okay, I'm just here 0:04:59.440 --> 0:05:02.279 to help notice it and we'll talk with Sharon. You know, 0:05:02.320 --> 0:05:05.400 the biggest misconception about meditation is that it's about clearing 0:05:05.400 --> 0:05:08.520 your mind. It is not about not mindfulness. Mindfulness is 0:05:08.520 --> 0:05:12.279 about noticing your mind. So the busier your mind is, sorry, 0:05:12.560 --> 0:05:16.600 get on that cushion, because probably quote the better you 0:05:16.680 --> 0:05:20.160 might even be at mindfulness, because it's just about noticing 0:05:20.160 --> 0:05:23.080 all of your thoughts. And once you start to notice 0:05:23.120 --> 0:05:27.720 your thoughts very deliberately, ten minutes a day over the 0:05:27.720 --> 0:05:31.200 course of weeks, months, it does start to change the 0:05:31.240 --> 0:05:34.400 way you think and the way you react to things, 0:05:34.400 --> 0:05:36.919 and the way you go about your every day. But 0:05:37.000 --> 0:05:40.000 I too have a complicated relationship with meditation. You know, 0:05:40.120 --> 0:05:41.960 if I don't do it the first thing when I 0:05:41.960 --> 0:05:44.800 get up, it looms as this big giant thing I 0:05:44.839 --> 0:05:49.320 have to do. And I know that people who don't meditate, obviously, 0:05:49.400 --> 0:05:52.840 can also have a complicated relationship with meditation. I think 0:05:52.839 --> 0:05:54.640 it's one of those words that just gets a reaction 0:05:54.680 --> 0:05:57.000 from people. Nobody's neutral when you say them, you know 0:05:57.000 --> 0:05:59.200 you should meditate. Nobody goes, oh, maybe I will. No, 0:06:00.080 --> 0:06:02.839 never had that happen. But I can tell you right now, 0:06:03.240 --> 0:06:07.279 just sit back, enjoy this episode and really get to 0:06:07.360 --> 0:06:11.800 know what meditation is. Don't confuse an ancient practice that's 0:06:11.839 --> 0:06:16.280 become trendy and commodified by some as the practice itself. 0:06:16.600 --> 0:06:19.040 It's really just about learning that with enough practice, we 0:06:19.080 --> 0:06:20.760 can be in the middle of a road rage and 0:06:20.839 --> 0:06:24.560 suddenly realize that we've just noticed our thoughts instead of 0:06:24.600 --> 0:06:27.279 acting on them. And yes, that's that's an example from 0:06:27.320 --> 0:06:30.040 my real life. So talking with Sharon today, I wanted 0:06:30.040 --> 0:06:32.479 to get into the mind of someone who might be 0:06:32.560 --> 0:06:36.200 listening to this podcast who just wants to know, just 0:06:36.279 --> 0:06:37.920 tell me how I do this thing and what is 0:06:38.000 --> 0:06:40.840 the truth about it. Supposed to be someone who's already 0:06:40.839 --> 0:06:42.840 heard there's no right way to meditate. You can start 0:06:42.920 --> 0:06:45.440 just doing five minutes a day, you know. I'm sure 0:06:45.440 --> 0:06:47.480 you've heard all that before, but I wanted to dig deeper. 0:06:47.520 --> 0:06:50.600 What stops people from trying it? Is it perfectionism, fear 0:06:50.640 --> 0:06:53.080 of sitting in their own thoughts. Is it that people 0:06:53.320 --> 0:06:56.440 don't understand exactly what meditation is and that's why they're hesitant. 0:06:56.839 --> 0:06:59.080 So we're talking to Sharon about all of this in 0:06:59.120 --> 0:07:02.039 the first part of my interview with her on Anxiety Bites. 0:07:02.360 --> 0:07:08.400 Here we go today on the show. My guest is 0:07:09.279 --> 0:07:12.560 a hero of mine, Sharon Salzburg. Sharon, thank you for 0:07:12.680 --> 0:07:16.400 being here until I did, really thank you. Let's get 0:07:16.480 --> 0:07:19.560 right into it, so this will be the first episode 0:07:19.560 --> 0:07:22.960 that deals entirely with meditation. I have to be honest. 0:07:23.000 --> 0:07:25.200 I I said, I'm going to drop it in after 0:07:25.280 --> 0:07:28.000 we've aired a few episodes already, and then I'm throwing 0:07:28.000 --> 0:07:31.920 the M word at everybody. Now, I use meditation as 0:07:31.960 --> 0:07:34.680 one of the tools in my anxiety tool kit. But 0:07:35.120 --> 0:07:37.360 when people have asked me for advice, you know, how 0:07:37.400 --> 0:07:39.360 do you deal with your anxiety? Before I can even 0:07:39.680 --> 0:07:42.120 take a breath to answer them, they'll say, but don't 0:07:42.120 --> 0:07:46.080 tell me to meditate. Now, why do you think people 0:07:47.120 --> 0:07:50.400 react this way? I mean preemptively even where they say 0:07:50.440 --> 0:07:53.320 they don't want to meditate. Is this new? I mean, 0:07:53.360 --> 0:07:56.920 you've been meditating for decades. Have you heard this before? 0:07:57.640 --> 0:08:00.160 What is going on with that? Well? I think has 0:08:00.160 --> 0:08:02.480 been this way. I always put in different ways for 0:08:02.560 --> 0:08:06.080 different reasons, and I can well imagine, given some of 0:08:06.080 --> 0:08:10.480 the associations people have with meditation that it's an absolutely 0:08:10.480 --> 0:08:14.960 excruciating idea, especially if you're like a high energy person, 0:08:15.800 --> 0:08:19.960 you know, leaning over into anxious and um the thought 0:08:19.960 --> 0:08:22.600 of you know, having to sit still and a pretzel 0:08:22.600 --> 0:08:25.920 like pusture with your eyes closed, not moving for three 0:08:25.960 --> 0:08:29.000 hours or whatever, you know, and not having any thoughts 0:08:29.240 --> 0:08:33.920 or even just being alone with your thoughts and having 0:08:34.040 --> 0:08:37.000 just this run. I mean, it is excruciating, and I 0:08:37.000 --> 0:08:40.240 don't blame them one bit for not finding it appealing. 0:08:40.880 --> 0:08:43.360 But the reality of meditation is, first of all, it's 0:08:43.360 --> 0:08:46.760 so much broader than that. And you know, you don't 0:08:46.760 --> 0:08:48.800 have to sit in a pretzel like pusture, you don't 0:08:48.800 --> 0:08:51.280 have to be uncomfortable, you don't have to do it 0:08:51.320 --> 0:08:55.680 for hours at a time. Um, neuroscience actually says, well, 0:08:55.679 --> 0:08:59.640 I've had two different things. One neuroscientist tell me seven 0:08:59.679 --> 0:09:03.360 to nine minutes a day will change your brain, and 0:09:03.400 --> 0:09:07.160 another neuroscientists tell me twelve minutes a day. So nobody 0:09:07.200 --> 0:09:10.280 actually knows, of course, But also no one is saying 0:09:10.280 --> 0:09:12.080 you have to do this for six hours a day, 0:09:12.160 --> 0:09:15.600 you know, and struggle and in order to have even 0:09:15.679 --> 0:09:19.520 measurable effects on your brain. And so you know. And 0:09:19.559 --> 0:09:22.920 it's also not the case that we meditate to wipe 0:09:22.920 --> 0:09:26.200 out thinking, you know, which would be impossible anyway. But 0:09:26.280 --> 0:09:31.439 we're trying to change our relationship to everything our physical experience. 0:09:31.520 --> 0:09:37.400 Sensations are emotions, are thoughts, because we want to have choice, 0:09:37.480 --> 0:09:39.680 we want to be empowered, you know, not to wipe 0:09:39.720 --> 0:09:43.920 out an experience, but to relate to it differently. You know, 0:09:44.280 --> 0:09:46.400 we don't have to take every thought to heart. Maybe 0:09:46.440 --> 0:09:51.479 we don't have to um be defined by certain emotions 0:09:51.520 --> 0:09:54.960 things like that, and so uh there and in so 0:09:55.000 --> 0:09:58.760 many ways, you know, you can practice meditation walking um, 0:09:58.880 --> 0:10:00.600 you can do it lying down, and you could do 0:10:00.679 --> 0:10:04.440 it uh using a word or mantra. You can do 0:10:04.480 --> 0:10:08.280 it using the breath, and it's like this fabulous period 0:10:08.320 --> 0:10:12.839 of experimentation if you're if you're in this to try, 0:10:13.360 --> 0:10:15.480 you know, rather than feeling I have to do it 0:10:15.559 --> 0:10:19.400 this way. I think that's important, Like if people could 0:10:19.440 --> 0:10:21.840 at the very least maybe adjust their approach to and 0:10:21.840 --> 0:10:24.280 think of it as something to be enthused about, you know. 0:10:24.679 --> 0:10:27.520 And it's interesting because I'm a daily meditator. I try 0:10:27.559 --> 0:10:32.520 to do it before I even leave my bedroom so 0:10:32.559 --> 0:10:34.280 that I make sure that I do it that day. 0:10:34.679 --> 0:10:36.520 Of course, today I didn't do it because I knew 0:10:36.520 --> 0:10:38.840 I was interviewing you, and I was excited and nervous, 0:10:39.640 --> 0:10:42.120 and so I thought, what she's I have twenty minutes 0:10:42.160 --> 0:10:44.160 before we log on with Sharon, This would be a 0:10:44.240 --> 0:10:46.240 great time to meditate. And I went, no, I'm not 0:10:46.280 --> 0:10:49.000 going to. I'm going to make coffee. I'm going to 0:10:49.200 --> 0:10:52.600 stay jacked up like it was. You know, every day 0:10:52.600 --> 0:10:54.640 it's like I wake up and I'm a beginner again 0:10:54.720 --> 0:10:56.839 because I have to tell myself to do it right. 0:10:57.280 --> 0:11:00.199 Do you still experience that or I imagine you are 0:11:00.679 --> 0:11:04.040 kind of beyond that now. Yeah, it's not so much that. 0:11:04.160 --> 0:11:06.199 I mean I have I just had an anniversary. I've 0:11:06.240 --> 0:11:09.960 been meditating for fifty years. You can believe that, you know, 0:11:10.040 --> 0:11:12.800 which is ridiculous. I mean, the passage of time is 0:11:13.280 --> 0:11:16.280 one of the most absurd things ever. You know, this 0:11:16.520 --> 0:11:19.040 meditation at all help with that feeling that life is 0:11:19.080 --> 0:11:23.640 flying by or no, well I think it is flying by. 0:11:24.080 --> 0:11:26.480 But a meditation helps with a lot of a lot 0:11:26.520 --> 0:11:31.360 of aspects of things. Um, you know, I think that, uh, 0:11:31.520 --> 0:11:34.120 it does get to be more natural. And they're also 0:11:34.200 --> 0:11:40.679 ways of structuring the practice so that you feel support. 0:11:40.880 --> 0:11:44.960 So for example, UM, I always say to people, make 0:11:45.440 --> 0:11:49.360 a reasonable commitment, you know, is that five minutes a day, 0:11:49.920 --> 0:11:52.439 Is that seven to nine minutes a day is a 0:11:52.559 --> 0:11:56.160 three minutes a day? And for how long? And so 0:11:56.960 --> 0:11:59.480 you will find the difference in your life, which is 0:11:59.520 --> 0:12:02.600 where counts. And and so those two things, find a 0:12:02.640 --> 0:12:07.520 reasonable structure, don't worry about what you're experiencing in that 0:12:07.720 --> 0:12:10.320 five or ten or twenty minute period each day, whatever 0:12:10.320 --> 0:12:14.480 it is, and look at your life for for changes. 0:12:14.520 --> 0:12:17.880 And then there's really another thing, which is finds a 0:12:18.040 --> 0:12:22.280 supportive community if you can, whether that's you know, online 0:12:22.320 --> 0:12:26.640 these days or whatever, it's just something um that helps 0:12:26.679 --> 0:12:28.960 so you don't feel you're doing it all alone. I'm 0:12:28.960 --> 0:12:32.400 just going to push back a little bit on the 0:12:32.480 --> 0:12:35.080 notion of, hey, you know, just start out with two 0:12:35.080 --> 0:12:37.480 to five minutes. I mean, it is true there are 0:12:37.600 --> 0:12:41.720 days that I just well, listen, there's never any day 0:12:41.760 --> 0:12:44.080 where I only have two minutes to meditate. If my 0:12:44.160 --> 0:12:46.840 life was that busy, that's a problem if I'm not, 0:12:46.960 --> 0:12:49.960 you know, the president. But I now say, well, I'm 0:12:50.000 --> 0:12:52.480 only going to make two minutes time for two minutes today, 0:12:52.480 --> 0:12:55.439 and I mean, let's be honest, and I'll do it. 0:12:55.480 --> 0:12:58.880 But I've been reading this great book by this psychiatrist 0:12:58.960 --> 0:13:01.400 named Dr Born. He wrote this amazing book called The 0:13:01.400 --> 0:13:05.680 Anxiety and Phobia Workbook, and there's an entire chapter on 0:13:05.760 --> 0:13:09.520 perfectionism and how the root of a ton of anxiety 0:13:10.120 --> 0:13:12.720 is not that there's nuclear bombs or that you know, 0:13:12.880 --> 0:13:15.280 we had a hard childhood. It's that we're perfectionists, and 0:13:16.320 --> 0:13:18.719 it's hard to say to someone no, no, no, it's 0:13:18.760 --> 0:13:21.360 totally fine to meditate for just two minutes. If you're starting, 0:13:21.400 --> 0:13:23.400 people are like, I don't believe that you're just being 0:13:23.480 --> 0:13:25.679 nice because you're a meditator person. But there's a right 0:13:25.720 --> 0:13:27.679 way to do it, and that involves going on a 0:13:27.720 --> 0:13:30.600 retreat for ten days or you know, it's impossible, Like, 0:13:30.640 --> 0:13:33.480 how do you do you come across a lot of 0:13:33.520 --> 0:13:36.480 people that you can sort of detect the perfectionism? Is 0:13:36.520 --> 0:13:39.360 what's stopping them? And what is there anything else you 0:13:39.400 --> 0:13:42.000 can say beyond okay, really you can just do it 0:13:42.040 --> 0:13:45.120 for two minutes. How do you get through to them? Well? 0:13:45.320 --> 0:13:48.760 I think, of of course they do, you know, men perfectionists. 0:13:48.760 --> 0:13:51.320 But I don't know that it comes out so much 0:13:51.440 --> 0:13:54.840 in the sense of the form or the structure, but 0:13:54.960 --> 0:13:57.840 more the idea of what people think they should be experiencing, 0:13:57.960 --> 0:14:00.720 which I think gets in a minute. But in terms 0:14:00.720 --> 0:14:02.680 of the phone the structure, i'd actually give them data. 0:14:02.720 --> 0:14:05.880 I mean, these real nerves scientists I talked to, you know, 0:14:06.040 --> 0:14:08.360 who each have their own labs, who are very prominent 0:14:08.400 --> 0:14:12.800 in the field of studying the brain and meditation. And 0:14:12.920 --> 0:14:16.360 even though they had somewhat different perspectives, you know, they 0:14:16.400 --> 0:14:19.440 had different numbers. They were in the neighborhood of one another. 0:14:19.640 --> 0:14:22.800 You know, Yeah, there's seven to nine minutes. Did they 0:14:22.840 --> 0:14:25.400 say how how long it takes? Like, in other words, 0:14:25.440 --> 0:14:27.720 is it a month of doing this? About a month? Yeah, 0:14:27.960 --> 0:14:31.200 it has a short amount of time and then you 0:14:31.280 --> 0:14:33.840 have to keep going because it will start to fade, 0:14:33.880 --> 0:14:37.280 you know. But this is like getting the practice into place, 0:14:37.480 --> 0:14:40.600 you know, and having it, having it worked for you. 0:14:40.760 --> 0:14:44.880 And so, um, the second well, the first nerve scientist, 0:14:44.960 --> 0:14:47.360 I'll just say it was Richie Davidson, who has a 0:14:47.440 --> 0:14:52.440 lab at the University Wisconsindent Madison. Um is many books 0:14:52.480 --> 0:14:57.760 about meditation and the brain. And um, he said seven 0:14:57.760 --> 0:15:00.160 to nine minutes a day. So I mean, again, no 0:15:00.200 --> 0:15:03.480 one knows for sure clearly, but but there is there 0:15:03.560 --> 0:15:06.080 is some science behind this. If that's going to help 0:15:06.800 --> 0:15:09.920 for you to feel okay, it's it's worth doing. I 0:15:09.960 --> 0:15:12.640 find it. Perfectionism really comes out and certainly came out 0:15:12.640 --> 0:15:16.520 of me with the idea of what I think or 0:15:16.600 --> 0:15:20.320 we think we should be experiencing. And so, you know, 0:15:20.480 --> 0:15:25.440 while we're meditating while we're meditating, you know, and so um, Now, 0:15:25.520 --> 0:15:28.320 of course I'm not in any social situations, but back 0:15:28.360 --> 0:15:30.200 when I was like a year and a half ago, 0:15:31.240 --> 0:15:34.280 if I was introduced at a party or some social 0:15:34.360 --> 0:15:39.480 situation as a meditation teacher, people are often responded by saying, oh, 0:15:39.480 --> 0:15:42.280 I tried that once. I failed at it. Yeah, and 0:15:42.440 --> 0:15:44.760 we don't believe you can fail at it. You cannot 0:15:44.840 --> 0:15:49.040 have the wrong experience. You might have an uncomfortable experience, 0:15:49.800 --> 0:15:53.800 but you cannot do it wrong because everything is it's 0:15:53.840 --> 0:15:56.840 not about what's happening. It's about how we're relating to 0:15:56.920 --> 0:15:59.880 what's happening. And so if I were to ask these people, 0:16:00.000 --> 0:16:02.320 why do you think you failed at it? They would 0:16:02.400 --> 0:16:05.920 likely say I couldn't stop me thinking. I couldn't make 0:16:05.960 --> 0:16:09.400 my mind blank, I couldn't clear my mind, I couldn't 0:16:09.440 --> 0:16:13.800 have only beautiful thoughts. I couldn't keep the sleepiness from arising, 0:16:14.040 --> 0:16:18.000 I couldn't keep the anxiety from arizing. Whatever it is. Remember, 0:16:18.040 --> 0:16:21.720 we're all about relationship. It's not about what's happening. It's 0:16:21.720 --> 0:16:25.440 about how we're relating to what's happening. And so um, 0:16:25.480 --> 0:16:30.800 that's a very hard thing to believe. It is I 0:16:30.840 --> 0:16:33.360 think I think once people do believe it that Okay, 0:16:33.480 --> 0:16:35.280 I know what you're saying, it's time to sit and 0:16:35.280 --> 0:16:37.920 get quiet and notice our thoughts. Then that's the next 0:16:38.000 --> 0:16:40.320 level of resistance and scariness. Well, I don't want to 0:16:40.320 --> 0:16:42.320 know my thoughts, you know, and I don't want to 0:16:42.360 --> 0:16:44.320 sit with the feelings. I read this study. I don't 0:16:44.360 --> 0:16:47.360 have any I'm going to paraphrase it, but um, it 0:16:47.400 --> 0:16:50.640 came out during the pandemic that people would rather get 0:16:50.720 --> 0:16:53.360 a shock that's really painful than sit alone with their 0:16:53.360 --> 0:16:57.520 thoughts for like four minutes. And there was some gender difference. 0:16:57.840 --> 0:17:01.200 By the way, interesting study as the University of Virginia. 0:17:01.360 --> 0:17:05.120 And let me guess women can sit with their thoughts better. Yeah, 0:17:06.359 --> 0:17:09.160 I'm just saying, you know, is I also I thought about, 0:17:10.400 --> 0:17:12.760 you know, so many people, not everyone, of course, has 0:17:12.760 --> 0:17:16.800 been isolated in this situation. Some people have been working 0:17:16.840 --> 0:17:19.440 every day, some people live in you know, different kinds 0:17:19.480 --> 0:17:22.920 of situations. But for the people who have been alone 0:17:23.080 --> 0:17:25.520 all the kind of alone with their thoughts, I thought 0:17:25.560 --> 0:17:28.080 of that study right away. You know how hard it 0:17:28.119 --> 0:17:32.760 would be, um, because here too, you know, you're not 0:17:32.880 --> 0:17:35.920 sort of like thrown in the deep end and plunging 0:17:35.920 --> 0:17:38.399 into like looking at your thoughts and you're all shocked 0:17:38.400 --> 0:17:40.919 and embarrassed and freaked out. You know. It's like we 0:17:41.040 --> 0:17:44.560 learned certain skills. We learned skills of being kind to 0:17:44.640 --> 0:17:48.480 ourselves no matter what we're going through. We learned skills 0:17:48.520 --> 0:17:51.840 of having more presence and balance, which is really the 0:17:51.840 --> 0:17:55.159 whole key. You know. It's like, because we so often 0:17:56.000 --> 0:17:59.359 can't insist on changing what's coming up. It's like you 0:17:59.400 --> 0:18:01.200 can't wake up in the morning and say, I'm not 0:18:01.240 --> 0:18:05.000 going to get anxious all day today. I refuse, you know. 0:18:05.320 --> 0:18:09.800 I mean, we learned certain conditioning elements. We learned, well, 0:18:10.160 --> 0:18:13.920 it's stronger if I don't sleep, or if I eat, 0:18:14.040 --> 0:18:16.720 you know, eighteen pounds of sugar for breakfast, whatever it is, 0:18:16.800 --> 0:18:20.960 you know, And so we can affect conditions, but we 0:18:21.000 --> 0:18:24.240 can't control them and say, well, I've decided, you know, 0:18:24.400 --> 0:18:27.400 is that going to come up today because we don't know, 0:18:27.520 --> 0:18:31.400 and so learning how to relate to let's just say, 0:18:31.440 --> 0:18:36.600 anxiety that's already arisen, I'm not to maybe cascade and 0:18:36.680 --> 0:18:40.000 dive deep into it and also not fight it and 0:18:40.080 --> 0:18:43.440 hate it and hate yourself forward. That's the whole skills 0:18:43.440 --> 0:18:49.720 training anxiety bites will be right back after a quick 0:18:49.760 --> 0:19:01.400 little message from one of our sponsors. Where I find 0:19:01.400 --> 0:19:06.280 meditation goes really beautifully with cognitive therapy is incognitive behavior therapy. 0:19:06.320 --> 0:19:09.680 They'll tell you, don't believe your thoughts, don't follow your thought. 0:19:10.080 --> 0:19:12.520 You know, just because you think, um, that it seems 0:19:12.520 --> 0:19:14.439 like a really good day for a nuclear war to breakout, 0:19:14.480 --> 0:19:16.760 doesn't mean it's going to where you're convinced the plane 0:19:16.760 --> 0:19:18.719 you're on is going to crash. And and you and 0:19:18.760 --> 0:19:21.200 I have this in common. This is a quote from 0:19:22.200 --> 0:19:24.600 from you that I read, um that you said, many 0:19:24.600 --> 0:19:26.960 are made anxious by not knowing, but I am afraid 0:19:26.960 --> 0:19:29.240 of the things I believe to be certain. The plane 0:19:29.320 --> 0:19:31.800 is going to crash, my car is going to break down. 0:19:32.240 --> 0:19:34.639 Whether the anxiety comes from this certainty that we are 0:19:34.720 --> 0:19:38.160 right or the despair that nothing is going to ever work. Um. 0:19:38.160 --> 0:19:40.400 We want to give this high energy a big space 0:19:40.480 --> 0:19:42.879 so it no longer bounces off the walls of the mind. 0:19:43.000 --> 0:19:48.000 So is the big space meditation in that sense? Yeah, 0:19:48.040 --> 0:19:50.479 you know, I mean there's so many different approaches, and 0:19:50.520 --> 0:19:53.399 I think, you know, I think an important thing is 0:19:53.440 --> 0:19:56.959 not to um make the experiment with a kind of 0:19:57.000 --> 0:20:00.280 mind of past fail Yeah, you know, a big because 0:20:00.320 --> 0:20:04.280 some approaches work right now and may not work tomorrow, 0:20:04.400 --> 0:20:07.200 or they may not work today, they might work tomorrow, 0:20:08.040 --> 0:20:11.480 or you know, you try something and it doesn't really 0:20:11.520 --> 0:20:15.000 seem to bring you more balanced. Okay, it's not because 0:20:15.040 --> 0:20:17.520 you have a character flaw or you need remedial work 0:20:17.640 --> 0:20:19.960 or you know, where you're so far gone that it's 0:20:20.560 --> 0:20:25.160 it's unthinkable. It's like that particular approaches and working right now, um, 0:20:25.200 --> 0:20:27.119 because what we're trying to do is really bring some 0:20:27.280 --> 0:20:33.239 balance into our being. And balance doesn't mean flatness in 0:20:33.359 --> 0:20:39.080 terms of our experience, means like the holding environment is open, spacious, 0:20:39.080 --> 0:20:43.960 as you said, um, connected, you know, so we're talking 0:20:44.000 --> 0:20:47.760 about the the environment within which all these things are 0:20:47.800 --> 0:20:52.040 gonna arise and pass away. And balance always looks different, 0:20:52.119 --> 0:20:56.960 you know, like some days where um, way too far 0:20:57.040 --> 0:20:59.560 back from what we're feeling and we need to kind 0:20:59.600 --> 0:21:02.320 of come forward a little bit and and feel it. 0:21:02.760 --> 0:21:06.520 And other days we're way too enmeshed and overwhelmed by 0:21:06.600 --> 0:21:08.800 what we're feeling and we need to center a bit, 0:21:09.119 --> 0:21:12.439 you know, and get some space. And so balance is 0:21:12.440 --> 0:21:16.119 always going to look different. Some things they'll just be 0:21:16.720 --> 0:21:19.359 useful on some days, and it's okay. If they don't work, 0:21:19.520 --> 0:21:21.679 you know, you try something else. So one of the 0:21:21.680 --> 0:21:25.879 approaches is really around that holding environment, you know, and 0:21:25.920 --> 0:21:30.560 it's it's learning to relate with presents, with balance, with kindness, 0:21:30.920 --> 0:21:35.560 no matter what's going on. Most meditation practices, you're just 0:21:35.640 --> 0:21:40.160 aware of the breath anyhow it's appearing, you know, ragged 0:21:40.359 --> 0:21:43.480 or smooth. It doesn't matter, you know, you're just paying attention. 0:21:44.160 --> 0:21:47.560 But there are ways of breathing that are aren't consciously 0:21:49.000 --> 0:21:52.800 changing the pattern of the breath. And um, so they say, 0:21:52.880 --> 0:21:57.400 for example, if you're out breath is longer than you're 0:21:57.480 --> 0:22:01.320 in breath, the parasympathetic nerve a system will start taking 0:22:01.359 --> 0:22:05.840 over from the sympathetic nervous system. You'll just chill, you know, 0:22:06.960 --> 0:22:11.479