1
00:00:00,560 --> 00:00:04,480
Speaker 1: Welcome to zero. I am Akshatrati this week ten years

2
00:00:04,720 --> 00:00:19,760
Speaker 1: from Paris. Given the climate vibe, you might not have clocked,

3
00:00:19,920 --> 00:00:22,279
Speaker 1: but it has been ten years since the Paris Agreement

4
00:00:22,360 --> 00:00:25,800
Speaker 1: was signed at COP twenty one in twenty fifteen. It

5
00:00:25,920 --> 00:00:28,440
Speaker 1: was a huge deal at the time, and as we

6
00:00:28,520 --> 00:00:31,320
Speaker 1: embark on COP thirty at Brazil, I wanted to take

7
00:00:31,320 --> 00:00:34,680
Speaker 1: a look at what impact the Paris Agreement has had

8
00:00:35,000 --> 00:00:37,479
Speaker 1: on the world, and to do that, I'm joined by

9
00:00:37,479 --> 00:00:40,600
Speaker 1: my colleague Laura Milan, who has written an extensive article

10
00:00:40,600 --> 00:00:45,720
Speaker 1: with our colleagues in Bloombergreen looking at the impacts of Paris. Laura, welcome,

11
00:00:45,960 --> 00:00:49,400
Speaker 1: Thank you. What was it like when the Paris Agreement

12
00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:50,080
Speaker 1: was signed.

13
00:00:50,520 --> 00:00:53,480
Speaker 2: Well, one of the things I've done several times as

14
00:00:53,560 --> 00:00:56,760
Speaker 2: a climate journalist has been to go back at the

15
00:00:56,880 --> 00:01:00,360
Speaker 2: video on YouTube of the exact moment when the Prize

16
00:01:00,360 --> 00:01:13,959
Speaker 2: agreement was signed, and you can see and hear the

17
00:01:14,040 --> 00:01:17,360
Speaker 2: screams of doy and you know, people getting up and

18
00:01:17,400 --> 00:01:22,000
Speaker 2: the smiles. And I think that these videos capture how

19
00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:25,800
Speaker 2: it was an extraordinary moment and the people leaving it

20
00:01:25,880 --> 00:01:29,520
Speaker 2: were aware of it. It also shows that probably the

21
00:01:29,600 --> 00:01:34,880
Speaker 2: people that were at the forefront of the negotiations didn't

22
00:01:34,959 --> 00:01:39,280
Speaker 2: quite believe that that would happen up until the very

23
00:01:39,360 --> 00:01:43,319
Speaker 2: last minute. So I think that explosion of happiness that

24
00:01:43,400 --> 00:01:46,160
Speaker 2: the video show kind of capture that, the fact that

25
00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:49,360
Speaker 2: it was an extraordinary moment and it could have well

26
00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:53,120
Speaker 2: not have happened. It required so much energy and negotiation

27
00:01:53,280 --> 00:01:55,080
Speaker 2: power to put that together.

28
00:01:55,560 --> 00:01:58,480
Speaker 1: But even when it was signed that all these skeptics

29
00:01:58,520 --> 00:02:02,440
Speaker 1: talking about look twenty years to get an agreement where

30
00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:04,920
Speaker 1: all countries said, yes, climate change is real and we'll

31
00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:07,280
Speaker 1: do something about it, and they put some temperature targets.

32
00:02:07,800 --> 00:02:10,600
Speaker 1: But it was all voluntary. All countries were supposed to

33
00:02:10,639 --> 00:02:14,639
Speaker 1: come up with their own climate plans. And when has

34
00:02:14,680 --> 00:02:17,080
Speaker 1: that ever worked on a global forum? Right?

35
00:02:17,639 --> 00:02:21,560
Speaker 2: Right, And that's the beauty of the agreement and what

36
00:02:21,800 --> 00:02:24,519
Speaker 2: people that are in favor of it and that defend

37
00:02:24,639 --> 00:02:28,160
Speaker 2: its legacy, that's what they will say, right. No one

38
00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:30,120
Speaker 2: knew that it would work at the time. No one

39
00:02:30,240 --> 00:02:36,840
Speaker 2: knew that voluntary commitments would push countries to be even

40
00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:40,880
Speaker 2: more ambitious than their neighbors, their allies. It was just

41
00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:44,960
Speaker 2: all a hope, and in a way, that's how multilateralism

42
00:02:45,080 --> 00:02:48,840
Speaker 2: in the post World War era has worked. So it

43
00:02:48,960 --> 00:02:52,640
Speaker 2: had that kind of spirit. No one knew it would work.

44
00:02:52,720 --> 00:02:54,720
Speaker 2: And in a way, and we will talk about more now,

45
00:02:54,760 --> 00:02:57,000
Speaker 2: of course, but in a way it did work. So

46
00:02:57,160 --> 00:03:01,680
Speaker 2: countries did put forward ambitious to targets, and some of

47
00:03:01,720 --> 00:03:05,160
Speaker 2: them weren't ambitious enough at the beginning, and then they

48
00:03:05,160 --> 00:03:09,200
Speaker 2: became more ambitious as they saw that other again, allies

49
00:03:09,280 --> 00:03:12,080
Speaker 2: or other countries were being more ambitious.

50
00:03:12,080 --> 00:03:15,440
Speaker 1: So some of the theory that was hoped for did

51
00:03:15,480 --> 00:03:20,480
Speaker 1: come to fruition. But there were also hard, clear targets.

52
00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:23,760
Speaker 1: There was a temperature target, which was either two degrees

53
00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:26,400
Speaker 1: celsius a warming or ideally below one point five degrees

54
00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:29,919
Speaker 1: celsias compared to pre industrial times. If we measure it

55
00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:32,639
Speaker 1: based on the temperature goal, how have we done?

56
00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:38,040
Speaker 2: Not good not good enough, I should say. So the

57
00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:42,360
Speaker 2: world is currently warming at having for a warming of

58
00:03:43,280 --> 00:03:46,280
Speaker 2: just under three degrees celsius by the end of the

59
00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:50,320
Speaker 2: century compared to pre industrial times, so that's below what

60
00:03:50,400 --> 00:03:52,880
Speaker 2: it was heading two when the price Agreement was signed,

61
00:03:52,880 --> 00:03:56,120
Speaker 2: which was around four degrees. So we have averted the

62
00:03:56,120 --> 00:03:59,480
Speaker 2: worst case scenario. But we're also not on track to

63
00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:02,760
Speaker 2: reach the goal of Paris, which was one point five

64
00:04:03,080 --> 00:04:06,360
Speaker 2: slash too close to one point five was the worthing.

65
00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:11,080
Speaker 2: So that degree tells use of warming. That separates the

66
00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:14,480
Speaker 2: four degrees we were heading four in twenty fifteen and

67
00:04:14,520 --> 00:04:18,479
Speaker 2: the three degrees slightly less that we are heading for now.

68
00:04:19,040 --> 00:04:23,960
Speaker 2: That was possible, that reduction in the temperature increase was

69
00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:28,000
Speaker 2: possible thanks to at least ten trillion dollars in investment

70
00:04:28,120 --> 00:04:33,080
Speaker 2: into the clean energy transition. That's something that Bloomberg and

71
00:04:33,160 --> 00:04:37,000
Speaker 2: YF has calculated adding up all the global investments that

72
00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:41,200
Speaker 2: we've seen over the past decade. And this money, while

73
00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:44,680
Speaker 2: it is a huge figure, is still not enough. Hasn't

74
00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:47,840
Speaker 2: been enough. Ten trillion dollars invested over the past decade

75
00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:51,920
Speaker 2: haven't been enough to slow climate change enough to meet

76
00:04:51,960 --> 00:04:56,160
Speaker 2: the price target. But again, one of the main victories

77
00:04:56,160 --> 00:04:59,160
Speaker 2: of Paris was putting a number to it, something measurable

78
00:04:59,560 --> 00:05:02,599
Speaker 2: that could be looked at in ten years as we're

79
00:05:02,640 --> 00:05:05,080
Speaker 2: doing now and say, okay, how did we do over

80
00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:05,960
Speaker 2: the past decade.

81
00:05:06,120 --> 00:05:09,599
Speaker 1: So you get Paris agreement with this big temperature target.

82
00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:14,400
Speaker 1: And really it's a very short, readable PDF written in

83
00:05:14,440 --> 00:05:21,600
Speaker 1: plain English that was then translated into concrete targets that

84
00:05:21,640 --> 00:05:24,440
Speaker 1: could be followed, not just a temperature target. But targets

85
00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:27,760
Speaker 1: for all sorts of sectors of the economy that needed

86
00:05:27,800 --> 00:05:30,960
Speaker 1: to change if we are to meet that temperature target.

87
00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:34,359
Speaker 1: So let's do a review of some of those targets

88
00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:38,800
Speaker 1: that was set either by Paris directly or by the

89
00:05:38,839 --> 00:05:41,760
Speaker 1: COP Forum where the Paris Agreement came to being. But

90
00:05:41,839 --> 00:05:44,520
Speaker 1: the following COP events that have happened since. One of

91
00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:47,920
Speaker 1: them is tripling renewable energy by twenty thirty. How are we.

92
00:05:47,880 --> 00:05:51,040
Speaker 2: Doing We're almost there, not quite yet, but it is

93
00:05:51,160 --> 00:05:54,279
Speaker 2: possible to get there. We will talk about other targets

94
00:05:54,320 --> 00:05:58,800
Speaker 2: we're technically. Technologically maybe it's harder, but in the case

95
00:05:58,880 --> 00:06:02,279
Speaker 2: of tripling renewable power, it can be done. There's just

96
00:06:02,320 --> 00:06:05,040
Speaker 2: a difference between how much it's invested now and how

97
00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:07,680
Speaker 2: much it needs to be invested. But if enough is invested,

98
00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:09,480
Speaker 2: that target could be reached.

99
00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:14,200
Speaker 1: So that is probably the best news in our list

100
00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:16,599
Speaker 1: of things that is going to come. The other one

101
00:06:16,600 --> 00:06:18,719
Speaker 1: that was also agreed in the same COP was to

102
00:06:18,760 --> 00:06:21,400
Speaker 1: transition away from fossil fuels. How are we doing there.

103
00:06:21,680 --> 00:06:24,960
Speaker 2: We are not doing well, because that is really complicated.

104
00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:29,200
Speaker 2: While adding renewable power to any greed is relatively easy

105
00:06:29,279 --> 00:06:33,640
Speaker 2: from a technical perspective, and from a political perspective, taking

106
00:06:34,040 --> 00:06:36,760
Speaker 2: away fossil fuels from the grid is the hard part.

107
00:06:37,240 --> 00:06:41,479
Speaker 2: So phasing down coal, which the UK did recently and

108
00:06:41,560 --> 00:06:45,359
Speaker 2: other countries are on their way to do, takes a

109
00:06:45,360 --> 00:06:49,120
Speaker 2: long time, costs money, and it's even more complicated when

110
00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:51,480
Speaker 2: we're talking about oil or gas.

111
00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:54,960
Speaker 1: Talking of gas, we should talk about methane, which was

112
00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:57,680
Speaker 1: never mentioned in the Paris Agreement, just like fossil fuels

113
00:06:57,680 --> 00:07:01,479
Speaker 1: whenever mentioned in the Paris Agreement. But we know that

114
00:07:01,600 --> 00:07:04,599
Speaker 1: carbon dioxide is only two thirds of the warming that

115
00:07:05,240 --> 00:07:09,000
Speaker 1: is the problem. Other gases, other greenhouse gases, also contribute

116
00:07:09,040 --> 00:07:11,920
Speaker 1: and methane is the second biggest contributor. And we now

117
00:07:11,960 --> 00:07:14,680
Speaker 1: have a goal to reduce methane emissions. How are we

118
00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:15,800
Speaker 1: doing so?

119
00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:20,480
Speaker 2: We now have a way of measuring methane leaks from

120
00:07:20,520 --> 00:07:24,760
Speaker 2: space using satellites. Companies are aware that they have leaks

121
00:07:24,760 --> 00:07:28,000
Speaker 2: and they have committed to reduce them. But from there

122
00:07:28,120 --> 00:07:31,600
Speaker 2: to actually doing that and reducing them, that's the hard part.

123
00:07:31,960 --> 00:07:34,920
Speaker 2: So more are being reduced every year, they're being plugged,

124
00:07:34,920 --> 00:07:39,520
Speaker 2: they're being brought under control. It's actually something that brings efficiency,

125
00:07:39,640 --> 00:07:43,880
Speaker 2: economic benefits to companies and climate at the same time,

126
00:07:43,920 --> 00:07:45,880
Speaker 2: so it makes economic sense for companies to do it,

127
00:07:46,400 --> 00:07:48,840
Speaker 2: but to plug all of them, that's the hard part.

128
00:07:49,160 --> 00:07:51,520
Speaker 1: Another goal that governments agreed on was to try and

129
00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:55,240
Speaker 1: phase out the sale of fossil fuel cars. Some countries,

130
00:07:55,600 --> 00:07:57,440
Speaker 1: like the European Union, wants to do it as soon

131
00:07:57,480 --> 00:08:01,520
Speaker 1: as twenty thirty five, Developing countries later maybe twenty forty,

132
00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:02,600
Speaker 1: maybe twenty forty five.

133
00:08:02,920 --> 00:08:05,240
Speaker 2: How are we doing This is a very interesting one

134
00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:07,440
Speaker 2: and one which I like very much because it's a

135
00:08:07,440 --> 00:08:11,680
Speaker 2: complex one. Some countries are doing way better than expected.

136
00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:14,680
Speaker 2: So for example, China has set a goal for the

137
00:08:14,720 --> 00:08:19,400
Speaker 2: sale of electric vehicles but has way surpassed it, practically

138
00:08:19,480 --> 00:08:23,560
Speaker 2: doubling it, whereas other countries that even developing nations are

139
00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:26,760
Speaker 2: going much much slower and will not meet that goal

140
00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:29,480
Speaker 2: in time. So it's a mixed bag. But there are

141
00:08:29,560 --> 00:08:33,520
Speaker 2: some cases that are surprising where electric vehicles are taking off.

142
00:08:33,880 --> 00:08:37,240
Speaker 1: And another aspect of climate that very rarely gets discussed

143
00:08:37,480 --> 00:08:41,600
Speaker 1: is land what's happening on agriculture? What's happening on deforestation?

144
00:08:42,600 --> 00:08:45,280
Speaker 1: At COP twenty six in Glasgow, there was a goal

145
00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:49,880
Speaker 1: that countries wanted to end deforestation by twenty thirty. How

146
00:08:49,880 --> 00:08:50,320
Speaker 1: are we doing.

147
00:08:50,559 --> 00:08:54,120
Speaker 2: We're actually going in reverse, so not progressing, but going

148
00:08:54,240 --> 00:08:58,520
Speaker 2: in the other direction. And why this is bad is

149
00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:02,560
Speaker 2: because we rely on natural ecosystems that go from the

150
00:09:02,559 --> 00:09:08,600
Speaker 2: oceans to forests and rainforests especially to absorb the greater

151
00:09:08,960 --> 00:09:13,360
Speaker 2: of the carbon that we meet. If trees are being

152
00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:18,520
Speaker 2: cut and forest disappears, then the Earth has less of

153
00:09:18,559 --> 00:09:21,840
Speaker 2: an ability to absorb that carbon, which means the planet

154
00:09:21,960 --> 00:09:27,600
Speaker 2: keeps getting warmer and warmer. So in terms of deforestation, again,

155
00:09:27,679 --> 00:09:31,240
Speaker 2: it's going in reverse. It's increased over the past few years.

156
00:09:31,640 --> 00:09:34,400
Speaker 2: And this COP is being held in Brazil, home to

157
00:09:34,880 --> 00:09:40,480
Speaker 2: the Amazon rainforest that is being wrecked by agriculture and

158
00:09:40,559 --> 00:09:45,199
Speaker 2: other human activities including wildfires and so on. So it's

159
00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:46,760
Speaker 2: going to be one of the main themes at this

160
00:09:46,920 --> 00:09:49,800
Speaker 2: COP that will hopefully highlight that this goal is not

161
00:09:49,960 --> 00:09:50,760
Speaker 2: going well at all.

162
00:09:51,200 --> 00:09:54,400
Speaker 1: It's also worth noting that cloud scientists had estimates about

163
00:09:54,440 --> 00:09:58,600
Speaker 1: how quickly warming will happen, and that estimate had a range,

164
00:09:59,600 --> 00:10:02,160
Speaker 1: and we are at the worst end of that range

165
00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:06,400
Speaker 1: because warming is happening faster than many climate scientists average

166
00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:10,000
Speaker 1: expectations were supposed to be. It might be to do

167
00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:12,400
Speaker 1: with us not being able to absorb as much greenhouse

168
00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:14,640
Speaker 1: gases in the oceans and the forest, or it might

169
00:10:14,679 --> 00:10:17,160
Speaker 1: be to do with something like clouds, which we still

170
00:10:17,160 --> 00:10:21,320
Speaker 1: don't understand very well. But it's a worrying sign. For

171
00:10:21,400 --> 00:10:24,640
Speaker 1: the Paris Agreement. There is a finance goal that I

172
00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:26,880
Speaker 1: want to ask you about. You said, ten trillion dollars

173
00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:30,000
Speaker 1: was invested in clean energy technologies, which help shave off

174
00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:34,520
Speaker 1: maybe one degree celsius of worst case warming. But Paris

175
00:10:34,559 --> 00:10:38,920
Speaker 1: Agreement also says that all financial flows should align with

176
00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:44,320
Speaker 1: the climate goal, and specifically, developing countries said they need

177
00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:46,520
Speaker 1: climate finance. There was a goal to reach one hundred

178
00:10:46,520 --> 00:10:49,600
Speaker 1: billion dollars of rich countries giving money to poor countries.

179
00:10:49,880 --> 00:10:50,520
Speaker 1: How did that go?

180
00:10:51,160 --> 00:10:56,000
Speaker 2: That one? Actually not too bad by some measures, or

181
00:10:56,040 --> 00:10:59,400
Speaker 2: even well, that goal of one hundred billion in climate

182
00:10:59,440 --> 00:11:02,599
Speaker 2: finance was achieved a couple of years later than it

183
00:11:02,640 --> 00:11:05,520
Speaker 2: should have. But the thing is that when you look

184
00:11:05,640 --> 00:11:10,560
Speaker 2: at how much developing nations need, and let's remember that

185
00:11:10,640 --> 00:11:15,080
Speaker 2: developing nations are the least responsible for climate change because

186
00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:18,240
Speaker 2: they emitted less greenhouse gases into the atmosphere. So that's

187
00:11:18,320 --> 00:11:21,560
Speaker 2: like the whole reasoning behind why developed countries should pay more.

188
00:11:22,040 --> 00:11:24,080
Speaker 2: When you look at what they need. It's just a

189
00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:27,040
Speaker 2: drop in the ocean. So the new goal that has

190
00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:30,280
Speaker 2: been set is three hundred billion in climate finance by

191
00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:34,160
Speaker 2: twenty thirty five. That's three times the previous goal, which

192
00:11:34,240 --> 00:11:36,760
Speaker 2: was already hard to achieve, and it's going to be

193
00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:39,960
Speaker 2: even harder to achieve it in the current geopolitical context.

194
00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:42,720
Speaker 1: There are a whole lot of sectors that we didn't

195
00:11:42,760 --> 00:11:46,120
Speaker 1: touch upon because either there's been very little progress or

196
00:11:46,160 --> 00:11:49,800
Speaker 1: there's been no target setting. So on agriculture, for example,

197
00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:52,880
Speaker 1: a very touchy topic regardless of whether you're rich or poor.

198
00:11:53,520 --> 00:11:57,559
Speaker 1: We are not making good progress on plastics, which you

199
00:11:57,600 --> 00:12:00,600
Speaker 1: know are not directly a climate problem, they are indirectly

200
00:12:00,600 --> 00:12:02,560
Speaker 1: a climate problem because we use a lot of fossil

201
00:12:02,559 --> 00:12:06,280
Speaker 1: fuels to make plastics. We were supposed to have a

202
00:12:06,280 --> 00:12:10,679
Speaker 1: treaty that fell apart. So not doing really well. Nuclear,

203
00:12:10,880 --> 00:12:14,200
Speaker 1: which is one solution that currently the only solution that

204
00:12:14,240 --> 00:12:17,640
Speaker 1: the US government kind of wants to back for decobnizing technologies.

205
00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:21,120
Speaker 1: It's a very recent goal, but it's not clear whether

206
00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:24,680
Speaker 1: tripling of nuclear power by twenty fifty will actually happen.

207
00:12:25,040 --> 00:12:27,559
Speaker 1: Then there are sectors which are not in the Powers Agreement,

208
00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:32,440
Speaker 1: shipping in aviation, which without bringing under the Paris target,

209
00:12:32,679 --> 00:12:35,160
Speaker 1: we will not be able to stop temperaturize because if

210
00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:37,880
Speaker 1: shipping and aviation continued to put out grey in US

211
00:12:37,920 --> 00:12:42,120
Speaker 1: gas emissions, meeting all the climate targets that countries want

212
00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:45,079
Speaker 1: to meet will not be enough. And finally, sustainable fuels,

213
00:12:45,080 --> 00:12:48,120
Speaker 1: which could be a solution for shipping or aviation. We

214
00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:51,360
Speaker 1: don't really have much production capacity, so there's a whole

215
00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:53,679
Speaker 1: lot of things that still need to be done. So

216
00:12:53,920 --> 00:12:59,000
Speaker 1: we have these layers and layers of measures, technologies, targets,

217
00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:03,080
Speaker 1: temperature goals. But I want to spend a little time

218
00:13:03,360 --> 00:13:07,439
Speaker 1: just you know, reporter to reporter, we work on covering

219
00:13:07,440 --> 00:13:10,199
Speaker 1: climate change around the world. But you had to put

220
00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:13,360
Speaker 1: your hand on your heart and see whether you think

221
00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:17,760
Speaker 1: the Powers agreement so far has succeeded or not. What

222
00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:18,480
Speaker 1: would you say?

223
00:13:18,679 --> 00:13:20,720
Speaker 2: I mean, from my point of view, I think the

224
00:13:20,720 --> 00:13:22,640
Speaker 2: answer is clear. You look at the numbers and it

225
00:13:22,679 --> 00:13:26,280
Speaker 2: hasn't succeeded. We're still headed to close to three degrees

226
00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:28,920
Speaker 2: cells used by the end of the century. Where it

227
00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:32,800
Speaker 2: has succeeded, and I think that has to be recognized

228
00:13:32,840 --> 00:13:37,440
Speaker 2: and I guess celebrated is in building the momentum that

229
00:13:37,520 --> 00:13:41,000
Speaker 2: the world needed to really get started on climate action.

230
00:13:41,440 --> 00:13:46,320
Speaker 2: It got things moving in a way that is impossible

231
00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:49,600
Speaker 2: to turn back. Even if we're now in a world

232
00:13:49,640 --> 00:13:52,559
Speaker 2: that politically is very different from where it was ten

233
00:13:52,640 --> 00:13:56,000
Speaker 2: years ago or even five years ago. There's a reality,

234
00:13:56,040 --> 00:13:59,360
Speaker 2: and it is that the climate movement is not stopping.

235
00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:03,160
Speaker 2: It's not stopping in the economy, it's not stopping in politics.

236
00:14:03,200 --> 00:14:06,520
Speaker 2: So in that way it was successful. It just wasn't

237
00:14:06,559 --> 00:14:09,840
Speaker 2: successful enough to stop or not to stop, but to

238
00:14:09,960 --> 00:14:14,120
Speaker 2: slow down climate change. And then in the other sense

239
00:14:14,200 --> 00:14:18,280
Speaker 2: that it was also successful is in showing that multilateralism

240
00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:25,280
Speaker 2: works and that countries together can make change. Even though

241
00:14:25,720 --> 00:14:30,480
Speaker 2: the US left the price Agreement the accord twice or

242
00:14:30,560 --> 00:14:32,880
Speaker 2: one and a half, you would say, as it hasn't

243
00:14:32,880 --> 00:14:36,880
Speaker 2: officially left it for the second time, but I personally

244
00:14:36,960 --> 00:14:41,400
Speaker 2: think it still shows that getting together talking about things

245
00:14:41,520 --> 00:14:45,560
Speaker 2: is something that works and is better than just everyone

246
00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:46,560
Speaker 2: doing things on their own.

247
00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:49,120
Speaker 1: And what do you think, well, I also have mixed

248
00:14:49,160 --> 00:14:53,320
Speaker 1: feelings about it. On the one hand, the numbers make

249
00:14:53,400 --> 00:14:58,200
Speaker 1: it clear that success hasn't happened, and the perspective of

250
00:14:58,960 --> 00:15:01,760
Speaker 1: island nations, which were crucial in getting the one point

251
00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:06,440
Speaker 1: five degree celsius target in Paris. It is clearly not succeeded.

252
00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:11,640
Speaker 1: But I also worry that while the numbers were necessary,

253
00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:14,480
Speaker 1: you needed a target. You needed a target to be

254
00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:19,040
Speaker 1: translated into national climate plans, into corporate plans, into net

255
00:15:19,120 --> 00:15:22,040
Speaker 1: zero by twenty fifty. It comes with a tyranny of

256
00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:26,600
Speaker 1: numbers because the fact that we have shaved off one

257
00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:30,200
Speaker 1: degree celsius of warming doesn't feel as big an achievement

258
00:15:30,720 --> 00:15:34,480
Speaker 1: when we are failing to reach one point five degrees celsius.

259
00:15:35,040 --> 00:15:38,560
Speaker 1: When we look at corporations setting these net zero targets

260
00:15:38,600 --> 00:15:41,560
Speaker 1: and then failing to reach them, we can see that's

261
00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:45,400
Speaker 1: a failure, but not a success. That corporations that have

262
00:15:46,520 --> 00:15:49,960
Speaker 1: no regulations in most parts of the world to actually

263
00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:53,600
Speaker 1: do anything about climate change even set a target that

264
00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:57,440
Speaker 1: to me is a failure versus success. That is really

265
00:15:57,560 --> 00:16:00,640
Speaker 1: hard for people to grapple to a ze that a

266
00:16:00,680 --> 00:16:05,360
Speaker 1: global forum that has existed for now nearly thirty years

267
00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:09,280
Speaker 1: continues to produce really on a year to year basis

268
00:16:09,720 --> 00:16:13,800
Speaker 1: not much progress is a failure, but it takes away

269
00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:18,320
Speaker 1: from the fact that still two hundred countries meet every

270
00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:21,280
Speaker 1: year to make sure that they talk about a global

271
00:16:21,320 --> 00:16:24,920
Speaker 1: problem that cannot be solved any other way, but done

272
00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:28,720
Speaker 1: globally and shamed the one rogue actor in the US

273
00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:32,520
Speaker 1: is a huge success. So to me, the paras agreement

274
00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:36,200
Speaker 1: is a necessary step that the world had to take.

275
00:16:37,400 --> 00:16:40,720
Speaker 1: Was it sufficient? Of course not. But things don't stop here.

276
00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:43,320
Speaker 1: What do you think the next ten years look like.

277
00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:46,360
Speaker 2: I think the last ten years, like you were saying,

278
00:16:46,400 --> 00:16:49,720
Speaker 2: have shown that COP worked in some ways and the

279
00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:52,920
Speaker 2: then in some others. I think the next ten years

280
00:16:53,120 --> 00:16:57,920
Speaker 2: will likely that trend is likely to continue. Cops half

281
00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:01,800
Speaker 2: their things, that the works so well, and I think

282
00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:04,840
Speaker 2: what will be important over the next ten years are

283
00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:08,359
Speaker 2: not so much the decisions adopted at COP. You know

284
00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:13,600
Speaker 2: that very confluted language that negotiators discuss for days and nights.

285
00:17:13,680 --> 00:17:18,200
Speaker 2: But what happens in the private sector, because the progress

286
00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:21,200
Speaker 2: that needs to happen now is concrete progress, and thanks

287
00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:23,960
Speaker 2: to the price agreement, we know where that progress needs

288
00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:26,639
Speaker 2: to happen. It needs to happen in renewable power, it

289
00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:32,959
Speaker 2: needs to happen in electric vehicles, transmission grids, methane, hydrogen, plastics,

290
00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:35,719
Speaker 2: whatever you can think. But these are concrete things that

291
00:17:35,920 --> 00:17:39,320
Speaker 2: have companies working on them. That touch citizens, and so

292
00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:43,320
Speaker 2: I think that the private sector will become increasingly important

293
00:17:43,359 --> 00:17:46,159
Speaker 2: over the next ten years to achieve these goals and

294
00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:51,160
Speaker 2: slow climate change because it's important, but also hopefully because

295
00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:53,200
Speaker 2: it makes economic sense for them to do that.

296
00:17:53,560 --> 00:17:55,680
Speaker 1: Well, that's preaching to the choir. I read a book

297
00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:59,200
Speaker 1: called climate Capitalism would say is that market forces need

298
00:17:59,280 --> 00:18:03,600
Speaker 1: to be crucial to making climate action work. But the

299
00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:07,359
Speaker 1: thesis also only works if governments are able to shape

300
00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:10,399
Speaker 1: those markets. So this hand in hand between governments and

301
00:18:10,520 --> 00:18:15,480
Speaker 1: markets in places where sometimes more government work is needed

302
00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:18,840
Speaker 1: in places where more private action is needed, they can vary,

303
00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:21,520
Speaker 1: but they do need to work hand in hand. This

304
00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:23,680
Speaker 1: is a fun chat, Laura. Thank you for all your

305
00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:24,800
Speaker 1: reporting and all the work.

306
00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:28,159
Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. It's always.

307
00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:34,440
Speaker 3: After the break we hear from Christiana Figures, architect of

308
00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:37,560
Speaker 3: the Paris Agreement, about whether she thinks the agreement has

309
00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:40,400
Speaker 3: worked and what the future holds in store for it.

310
00:18:52,240 --> 00:18:55,399
Speaker 3: As part of her reporting, my colleague at Bloombergreen, Laura Milan,

311
00:18:55,600 --> 00:18:58,760
Speaker 3: spoke with Christiana Figures. She was head of the UN's

312
00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:02,240
Speaker 3: climate body Triple See when the Paris Agreement was signed

313
00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:05,399
Speaker 3: and was crucial in getting it over the line, Laura

314
00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:08,320
Speaker 3: wanted to know from Christiana how the Paris Agreement has

315
00:19:08,359 --> 00:19:11,240
Speaker 3: worked since it was signed a decade ago and where

316
00:19:11,280 --> 00:19:13,360
Speaker 3: to look for progress in the next decade.

317
00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:17,439
Speaker 2: My first question to you is, you know, cop I

318
00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:21,880
Speaker 2: think we can agree managed to mobilize an unprecedented amount

319
00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:28,280
Speaker 2: of political capital and build momentum around climate change. What's

320
00:19:28,320 --> 00:19:32,240
Speaker 2: happened to all that energy that came together with the

321
00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:34,680
Speaker 2: Paris Agreement and that for most of the past ten

322
00:19:34,760 --> 00:19:39,080
Speaker 2: years has managed to advance the fight against climate change?

323
00:19:39,119 --> 00:19:42,119
Speaker 2: What's happened to all of that? Where are we now?

324
00:19:42,520 --> 00:19:46,080
Speaker 4: Where we are now is in a new period of progress.

325
00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:48,439
Speaker 4: And that is the mistake that we make that we

326
00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:52,600
Speaker 4: always want to put progress into the clothes that it

327
00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:57,560
Speaker 4: has already grown out of. So when we worked towards

328
00:19:57,720 --> 00:20:01,800
Speaker 4: the Paris Agreement, it was very clear that what we

329
00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:05,600
Speaker 4: needed was for national governments to be in the lead.

330
00:20:06,359 --> 00:20:09,600
Speaker 4: I would call that at that point it was necessary

331
00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:14,800
Speaker 4: in order to have all governments agreed to a common

332
00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:19,439
Speaker 4: decarbonization path for the global economy. It was very necessary

333
00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:21,879
Speaker 4: to have the governments in the lead and what I

334
00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:27,640
Speaker 4: call be the pull factor. We also additional to that,

335
00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:31,360
Speaker 4: although it wasn't necessary. But additional to that, we mobilized

336
00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:36,399
Speaker 4: an immense push factor, which was all of all of

337
00:20:36,440 --> 00:20:40,200
Speaker 4: the other stakeholders in addition to national governments, those were

338
00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:44,399
Speaker 4: subnational governments. It was industry, it was finance, it was

339
00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:49,760
Speaker 4: women's groups, it was religious leaders, it was the medical community,

340
00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:53,800
Speaker 4: et cetera, the youth, all of them who were in

341
00:20:54,000 --> 00:21:00,680
Speaker 4: a push mode to support national governments reaching an agreement

342
00:21:00,760 --> 00:21:05,080
Speaker 4: that was as ambitious as possible ten years ago. So

343
00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:08,199
Speaker 4: ten years ago we have national governments in being the

344
00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:12,600
Speaker 4: pull and all of their stakeholders being the push. Today,

345
00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:16,159
Speaker 4: ten years later, we have a complete reversal of that,

346
00:21:16,280 --> 00:21:20,480
Speaker 4: which is the way it should be. Today, national governments

347
00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:24,960
Speaker 4: are no longer the pull. They have already done their job.

348
00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:29,160
Speaker 4: They have agreed to the details under the Paris Agreement

349
00:21:29,359 --> 00:21:34,040
Speaker 4: called the Rule Book. They have agreed on how much

350
00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:37,600
Speaker 4: it's going to take to protect our humanity and all

351
00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:42,840
Speaker 4: the rest of life from increasing greenhouse gases. All of

352
00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:47,320
Speaker 4: that has already been agreed at the multilateral level, and

353
00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:51,879
Speaker 4: that is what we are used to. We're used to

354
00:21:52,040 --> 00:21:56,040
Speaker 4: progress coming from the multilateral level of all of the

355
00:21:56,119 --> 00:21:59,399
Speaker 4: nations in concert with each other. We have to open

356
00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:02,359
Speaker 4: our eyes to understand that we're in a completely different chapter.

357
00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:02,680
Speaker 5: Now.

358
00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:06,320
Speaker 4: If you go to Berlin and you ask the question,

359
00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:09,680
Speaker 4: what is the big agreement going to be, there is

360
00:22:09,800 --> 00:22:13,520
Speaker 4: no big agreement. That's the wrong question, because we have

361
00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:18,200
Speaker 4: actually moved to a completely new chapter, which is, how

362
00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:22,400
Speaker 4: do you now take the decisions that were taken at

363
00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:26,080
Speaker 4: the international level, at the multilateral level, how do you

364
00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:29,000
Speaker 4: take them to the ground. How do you actually make

365
00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:33,679
Speaker 4: emissions reductions, how do you actually increase adaptation, how do

366
00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:38,800
Speaker 4: you actually mobilize finance? That is something that is now

367
00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:42,800
Speaker 4: in the hands of the other stakeholders, not national governments.

368
00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:47,880
Speaker 4: So now we're in a chapter of the other stakeholders

369
00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:53,679
Speaker 4: being the pull force and national governments being the push force.

370
00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:57,720
Speaker 4: Because it's not that their role has disappeared, it's that

371
00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:00,840
Speaker 4: their role has changed. They no longer need do you

372
00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:04,359
Speaker 4: agree with everyone there would They no longer have to

373
00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:11,080
Speaker 4: agree to a unanimous, legally binding text. What their role

374
00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:18,760
Speaker 4: is now very much of a transparency accountability role. So

375
00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:22,560
Speaker 4: there much in the push, they're not in the pull.

376
00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:27,040
Speaker 4: And that's really important to understand because otherwise we're expecting

377
00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:30,040
Speaker 4: the cop to do something that it can't do and

378
00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:33,359
Speaker 4: it shouldn't be doing because it already did. So we're

379
00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:36,760
Speaker 4: victims of our own success. Let us look for progress elsewhere.

380
00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:41,399
Speaker 2: So within the priory agreement, one of the rules was

381
00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:47,040
Speaker 2: the emissions plans. These NDCs would be updated every five years,

382
00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:50,600
Speaker 2: and this year was the year when that was supposed

383
00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:52,760
Speaker 2: to happen. And I know that you're saying that, you know,

384
00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:57,040
Speaker 2: the focus now should be elsewhere, but that guidance from

385
00:23:57,119 --> 00:24:00,800
Speaker 2: the governments from the top is still embedded within the

386
00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:03,959
Speaker 2: parties agreement. And what we are seeing right now is

387
00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:07,719
Speaker 2: that countries haven't put forward their NDCs. Those that have

388
00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:11,199
Speaker 2: done it represent a very small share of the global

389
00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:16,159
Speaker 2: economy and of global emissions. So what can the skop

390
00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:19,800
Speaker 2: achieve realistically to call it a success.

391
00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:24,520
Speaker 4: You're asking the wrong question, my friend. You see, it's

392
00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:29,480
Speaker 4: not about what national governments are doing. So, yes, the

393
00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:33,280
Speaker 4: NDCs have to be filed every five years. Yes, national

394
00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:36,560
Speaker 4: governments have to put forward what their ambition is and

395
00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:40,960
Speaker 4: they will continue to do so does that represent the

396
00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:45,680
Speaker 4: actual reality on the ground. Does it represent the progress

397
00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:49,359
Speaker 4: in real economy? Does it represent the progress in advance

398
00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:50,880
Speaker 4: of technology dramatically?

399
00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:51,040
Speaker 6: No?

400
00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:55,040
Speaker 4: The best example is China. China has put in an

401
00:24:55,160 --> 00:25:04,120
Speaker 4: NDC that is inconsequential because of the political geopolitical situation

402
00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:06,800
Speaker 4: that they have with the United States right now. That

403
00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:10,160
Speaker 4: does not mean that China is not pushing forward. China

404
00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:15,920
Speaker 4: has a very very long, well established tradition of underpromising

405
00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:22,119
Speaker 4: and over delivering. This year, they have under promised radically.

406
00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:25,160
Speaker 4: They have taken that to an art form. But they're

407
00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:28,760
Speaker 4: also over delivering. They're doing much more to contribute to

408
00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:33,359
Speaker 4: global decarbonization than all other countries put together. So that

409
00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:36,320
Speaker 4: is what we have to begin to understand that one

410
00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:41,000
Speaker 4: thing is what national governments say because they're looking over

411
00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:44,119
Speaker 4: each other's shoulders and they have to play the geopolitical

412
00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:50,080
Speaker 4: game and etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. Fine, what is important for

413
00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:53,639
Speaker 4: my boss, who is the atmosphere? She looks down and

414
00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:56,800
Speaker 4: she says, I don't really care about geopolitics. I want

415
00:25:56,840 --> 00:26:00,320
Speaker 4: to know our emissions being reduced. That is the question

416
00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:04,040
Speaker 4: that we should be asking. Are emissions actually being reduced?

417
00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:07,399
Speaker 4: Are the technologies being developed to address climate change? Is

418
00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:11,879
Speaker 4: the finance flowing? Those are the questions. It's not the

419
00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:18,240
Speaker 4: smoke and mirrors of national governments. It just isn't anymore

420
00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:22,240
Speaker 4: ten years ago, they were definitely in the lead. Now

421
00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:24,400
Speaker 4: they're no longer in the lead.

422
00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:30,240
Speaker 3: My colleague Laura also spoke with Lawrence to Bianna Francis,

423
00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:33,080
Speaker 3: Special Ambassador for Climate at COP twenty one in Paris,

424
00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:36,080
Speaker 3: and discussed how to deal with a rogue United States

425
00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:39,000
Speaker 3: and what reforming the COP process could look like.

426
00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:45,720
Speaker 6: Do you think that the organization efforts the growth the

427
00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:49,240
Speaker 6: push is now coming from the private sector that's making

428
00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:53,560
Speaker 6: this investment, and does the market trend override the backlash

429
00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:55,480
Speaker 6: coming especially from the US.

430
00:26:55,960 --> 00:27:00,680
Speaker 5: I hope so. I hope this back lash would not

431
00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:05,360
Speaker 5: dominate the reality. It can delay that fosture. We see

432
00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:08,879
Speaker 5: that in Europe that, for example, the automotive sector doesn't

433
00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:14,320
Speaker 5: want to be obliged to stop selling IC engine in

434
00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:18,520
Speaker 5: twenty thirty five and then may win. So delay, yes,

435
00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:21,879
Speaker 5: re orient know that y, so.

436
00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:25,560
Speaker 7: It's inevitable that transition it is and in a whey

437
00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:29,040
Speaker 7: for me, it's a satisfaction because when we build the

438
00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:34,560
Speaker 7: Paris Agreement elements and the communications around Paris.

439
00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:38,760
Speaker 5: I knew that the essential element was the expectation that

440
00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:43,879
Speaker 5: the economic sector will finally share and that if the

441
00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:48,800
Speaker 5: idea that the transition is unstoppable and inevitable. Wasn't message.

442
00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:51,960
Speaker 5: I wanted the press to go and it happened. So

443
00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:55,879
Speaker 5: I see really rewarding that we see this is continuing

444
00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:59,240
Speaker 5: even if you have of course high end laws in

445
00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:02,679
Speaker 5: the way and civilizen in the press, on the media

446
00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:06,240
Speaker 5: and of that. Finally, can we go so far?

447
00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:06,800
Speaker 6: That?

448
00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:11,560
Speaker 5: For many questions, but I think the train has left

449
00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:12,919
Speaker 5: the station for many years now.

450
00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:16,000
Speaker 6: There is as far as I know, an externals of

451
00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:19,800
Speaker 6: committee or a group of people that have been asked

452
00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:23,920
Speaker 6: by the un actrical seats the groups of the process

453
00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:27,600
Speaker 6: and propose a reform. I've been told that what do

454
00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:30,919
Speaker 6: you think are the most important or the main ways,

455
00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:32,840
Speaker 6: and with that process should be reformed.

456
00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:37,480
Speaker 5: We are supporting a citizen Assembly or global citizen assembly

457
00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:40,240
Speaker 5: that will be it is the whole process and it

458
00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:42,840
Speaker 5: has been doing many regions and it will land in

459
00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:47,840
Speaker 5: top thirty. I do think that we should institutionalize that

460
00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:53,640
Speaker 5: we need to have processes where we hear disrectly what

461
00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:57,240
Speaker 5: citizens want, plan to do, how much they are aware,

462
00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:00,960
Speaker 5: how much they are concerned by because I don't think

463
00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:04,640
Speaker 5: you know. Finally, you look and you say it's going

464
00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:08,880
Speaker 5: very slowly, meaning there is a certain conservatism in the system.

465
00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:14,440
Speaker 5: When you do any polls everywhere, people are concerned, but

466
00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:18,560
Speaker 5: they are not consultants. So government decides that there is

467
00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:23,160
Speaker 5: a backlash. The blash is just because it's instrumentalized. Mostly

468
00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:26,240
Speaker 5: it is propaganda these days whennewment energy is bad, the

469
00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:30,479
Speaker 5: electric will explode, whatever, and so that they say there

470
00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:33,480
Speaker 5: is a backlash, which is comfortable for them if they

471
00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:36,360
Speaker 5: don't want to do anything, because you pretend that the

472
00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:39,720
Speaker 5: citizen will revolt if we do something. At least in

473
00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:43,560
Speaker 5: the democratic one, I think we need absolutely this consultation

474
00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:46,480
Speaker 5: of people because now it's normal the problem of one

475
00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:51,720
Speaker 5: or two constituencies. It's a society problem. Societal problem. So

476
00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:55,520
Speaker 5: I'm very very much in favor of introducing the mechanism

477
00:29:56,280 --> 00:29:59,280
Speaker 5: of citizen assemblies in the process.

478
00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:11,920
Speaker 3: Thank you for listening to Zero, and thank you to

479
00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:15,880
Speaker 3: both Christiana Figures and Lawrence to Bianna for speaking with us.

480
00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:18,880
Speaker 3: If you liked this episode, please take a moment to

481
00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:21,400
Speaker 3: rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

482
00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:24,600
Speaker 3: This episode was produced by Oscar Boyd with additional help

483
00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:29,160
Speaker 3: from Anna Masarakis. Our theme music is composed by Wonderly Special.

484
00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:32,840
Speaker 3: Thanks to Samarsadi, Moses Andem, Laura Milan and Sharon Chan

485
00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:34,880
Speaker 3: i'm Akshadrati, Baksu