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Speaker 1: If you have your own story of being in a

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Speaker 1: cult or a high control group, or if you've had

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Speaker 1: an experience with manipulation or abuse of power, you'd like

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Speaker 1: to share sheet.

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Speaker 2: Us an email at trust Me pod at gmail dot com.

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Speaker 3: Trust me, Trust trust Me. I'm like a squat person.

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Speaker 3: I've never lived. To you.

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Speaker 4: If you think.

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Speaker 1: That one person has all the answers, don't welcome to

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Speaker 1: trust Me. The podcast about cults, extreme belief and the

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Speaker 1: abusive power from two self regulators who've actually experienced it.

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Speaker 4: I am Lola Blanc and I am Megan Elizabeth.

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Speaker 1: And today our guest is doctor Robert Roten, CEO of

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Speaker 1: the Arizona Trauma Institute and President at the Trauma Institute International.

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Speaker 1: He is going to talk to us about how the

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Speaker 1: particular modality of therapy isn't as important as we tend

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Speaker 1: to think it is, as long as our therapist is

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Speaker 1: trauma informed, emotional regulation and dysregulation, and why it's akin

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Speaker 1: to a certain Marvel character, and why it's important for

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Speaker 1: our therapists to be regulated themselves.

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Speaker 2: We'll also discuss how our culture encourages dysregular and how

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Speaker 2: dysregulation can even become our identity. Practical ways to get

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Speaker 2: regulated and how he can actually begin to heal our

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Speaker 2: trauma over time.

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Speaker 1: Yay, fascinating combo, He's amazing before we start talking to him. Yes, Megan.

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Speaker 1: And what's the coziest thing that's happening this week or

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Speaker 1: your worst disregulation moment this week?

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Speaker 2: Oh? I love the whim Hof. Most people, I'm sure

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Speaker 2: know it. But it's wym Hoff breathing.

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Speaker 4: Exercises that's free on YouTube.

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Speaker 2: You just type in whim half ten minutes When I

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Speaker 2: do that, I am so regulated.

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Speaker 4: It's insane. That sounds like such a funny brag.

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Speaker 2: I'm so regulated, it's fucking crazy, so shut up. But

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Speaker 2: it really balances out my system and everybody else I've

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Speaker 2: recommended it too, So you just like do breathing in

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Speaker 2: and out without stopping for a minute, and then you

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Speaker 2: hold your breath for a minute and then you let

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Speaker 2: it out and blah blah blah.

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Speaker 4: But anyway, I love it. What about you? Okay?

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Speaker 1: Okay? And if you guys don't know what regulation is,

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Speaker 1: we're going to define it in this episode. But basically,

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Speaker 1: when you're dysregulated, that's when you are sort of like

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Speaker 1: your body is sort of hijacked by an emotion, whether

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Speaker 1: it's like anchor or trauma trigger or anxiety. Basically, anytime

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Speaker 1: your like logic brain is sort of taken over by

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Speaker 1: your emotion brain, it.

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Speaker 2: Barely ever happens to me. Just kidding, I live in

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Speaker 2: it constantly.

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Speaker 1: I feel like I am a pretty well regulated person, honestly,

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Speaker 1: Like most of the time, other than the like anxiety stuff,

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Speaker 1: I'm like.

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Speaker 4: Very that's a really funny sentense litlaugh.

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Speaker 2: Besides the crippling anxiety, I am very regulated.

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Speaker 1: Like I always behave exactly the same.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's like more uneasy.

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Speaker 1: Well, it's more like my thoughts are spiraling. I had

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Speaker 1: one single panic attack, but I haven't had any panic

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Speaker 1: attack since then, you know what I mean? Like, Yeah, typically,

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Speaker 1: typically the way that I operate in the world as

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Speaker 1: someone who's like very been keeled, which is maybe part

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Speaker 1: of the problem because I'm not expressing my feelings enough.

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Speaker 1: But most of my friends describe me as like pretty

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Speaker 1: moderate in temperament. But this week I got.

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Speaker 2: Quite just regulated, got quite disul What a wonderful coincidence.

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Speaker 1: What happens, well, a few things happened. I mean, I'm

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Speaker 1: in pre production for my short film which is extremely

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Speaker 1: exciting and awesome.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much to the listeners who donated you guys,

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Speaker 2: my god, oh my god, thank.

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Speaker 1: You so much. I feel like no one still told

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Speaker 1: me what they wanted me to say for their shout out.

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Speaker 1: But we will figure it out, yay. So I'm in

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Speaker 1: pre production now and it is extremely stressful. I don't

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Speaker 1: know if you know this, but making a short film

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Speaker 1: is hard.

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Speaker 4: YEP, sounds about right.

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Speaker 1: And even though we have a budget, whereas we have

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Speaker 1: a three day shoot, so that budget is gone like instantly,

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Speaker 1: so we basically have no budget. That's been really stressful.

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Speaker 1: And then my dog gave me some trouble this week.

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Speaker 1: I like thought he was dying again, gambling again, he

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Speaker 1: went on a binge, came home wasted.

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Speaker 4: Rambo, fucking asshole he whatever.

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Speaker 1: I thought he was dying again, because he's like fifteen

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Speaker 1: and a half. I always think he's dying, but he

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Speaker 1: really seemed like he was dying.

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Speaker 2: Every time I see him. I love him so much,

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Speaker 2: I'm like, probably not much time I have left with you.

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Speaker 2: And then he's like looking at me like I'm gonna

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Speaker 2: live for like thirty more years, and he was living.

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Speaker 1: I don't know how it happens. But he did not die,

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Speaker 1: so that's good. But then also whatever, like my mom

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Speaker 1: had some she had hurt her leg last week and

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Speaker 1: that was like a whole thing. It's been just like

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Speaker 1: a lot of stressors at once. And then so Jack

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Speaker 1: and I went to Joshua Tree this past weekend and

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Speaker 1: we got in a fight on the way to Joshua Tree,

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Speaker 1: and y'all, I was not my best self. I was

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Speaker 1: not my mostle He had an annoying with me, and

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Speaker 1: the fact that he was annoyed about that thing, it

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Speaker 1: triggered like five different things from my childhood and previous

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Speaker 1: relationships at once. Somehow, so I like, instead of keeping

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Speaker 1: my cool, I started being hostile. I started being passive aggressive.

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Speaker 1: It all ended up fine. We talked about it, and

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Speaker 1: I like pinpointed why it was so sensitive for me.

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Speaker 1: I was so hyper sensitive from everything that had been

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Speaker 1: going on that week that like I just lost it.

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Speaker 4: That's fun.

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Speaker 1: But me losing it is still like not that bad. Like,

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Speaker 1: you know, I'm not yelling, like what am I really doing?

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Speaker 1: I'm just being a little bit passive aggressive.

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Speaker 2: I'm sure the silent treatment was brutal, but I felt

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Speaker 2: that anger in my body.

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Speaker 1: Boy, did I feel that heat in my chest which

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Speaker 1: turned into bursting into tears and oh yeah, and then

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Speaker 1: we did mushrooms and everything was fine, Okay, cool, But

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Speaker 1: that's my dysregulation moment. But speaking of Culty though, Joshua Tree,

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Speaker 1: I've been there once or twice, but I usually only

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Speaker 1: stay in the airbnb. And this time we actually like

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Speaker 1: went into town. Fuck that town is Culty.

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Speaker 4: Oh yeah, it's very strange.

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Speaker 1: Jack was like it was his first time there, and

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Speaker 1: he was like, I feel like some like man with

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Speaker 1: goggles on his head is going to show up at

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Speaker 1: our door and murder us. Like why, yeah, I mean,

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Speaker 1: I love it. I love it there, but it's so

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Speaker 1: full of burning man people. It's crazy and so full

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Speaker 1: of like oh yeah, healers and retreats and you know, it's.

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Speaker 4: Obviously my heaven. I love it. I'm going this weekend.

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Speaker 4: My friend got us a little house.

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Speaker 1: You're going this weekend?

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Speaker 4: Wow? Yes? And a coach to walk us through some

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Speaker 4: stuff in a chef.

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry, what kind of coach.

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Speaker 2: It's a she's kind of a tantric coach, honestly, But

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Speaker 2: it's not like we're going to be doing sex stuff.

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Speaker 1: It's more wank wink. We're not going to be doing

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Speaker 1: sex stuff.

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Speaker 4: We're not going to be doing butt stuff. Win wink. No,

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Speaker 4: we're not going to be doing any of that stuff.

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Speaker 4: But she does regulation, so I can't wait to share

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Speaker 4: what I learned.

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Speaker 1: She does regulation.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, she's called she's a regular like remember the rapper

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Speaker 2: or what was his name?

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Speaker 4: War and g in like the nineties when I was

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Speaker 4: like regulators.

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Speaker 1: We used to share a manager of me and wrang G.

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Speaker 1: So that's cool. Oh, then that manager dropped me. Oh

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Speaker 1: well you should drop it like it's hot. Anyway, we've

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Speaker 1: rambled enough, let's talk about ramboed enough, let's do it.

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Speaker 1: Welcome Doctor Robert Roton AKA we're gonna call you Bob.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to the show. Thank you, thank you so much

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Speaker 1: for being here. There's so much that we want to

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Speaker 1: talk to you about today. So you're the CEO at

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Speaker 1: Arizona Trauma Institute and the president at Trauma Institute International.

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Speaker 1: Basically you're the trauma guy, right, this is your thing?

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Speaker 3: Well, I am a trauma guy.

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Speaker 1: You're one of the trauma guys. How did you get

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Speaker 1: into this line of work?

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Speaker 3: First of all, oh, boy, kind of by default. I

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Speaker 3: was always curious about why do people do the things

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Speaker 3: they do? Why did my family do the things they did.

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Speaker 3: I was always interested in more of the dynamics involved,

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Speaker 3: and that kind of propelled me educationally. It also became

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Speaker 3: my interest because a lot of what was taught, at

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Speaker 3: least in my counseling programs years and years ago, really

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Speaker 3: didn't prepare anybody to work with someone that had a

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Speaker 3: trauma history, and so a lot of it had to

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Speaker 3: be learned after the fact through just becoming an affectionado,

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Speaker 3: if you will, of the research. I loved reading the

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Speaker 3: research and making sense of it, and I just found

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Speaker 3: one day that I just knew a whole lot more

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Speaker 3: than most people.

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Speaker 4: I'm still waiting for that to happen to me.

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Speaker 1: So can you tell us what is trauma? What does

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Speaker 1: it mean? What is actually happening in our bodies?

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Speaker 3: So trauma is, in at least the US culture, we

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Speaker 3: think of trauma as an event, and that's really unfortunate

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Speaker 3: that we do, because trauma is about a state of

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Speaker 3: the body, and when the body is taxed beyond its

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Speaker 3: immediate ability to cope, it has to react in some

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Speaker 3: way because it becomes an issue of survival and either

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Speaker 3: adapts through an aggressive, reactive assertive piece, or it will

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Speaker 3: react by shutting down, withdrawing and kind of disconnecting. And

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Speaker 3: those are biologically correct responses. And we have built the

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Speaker 3: whole world of mental health around not recognizing that most

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Speaker 3: of the symptoms we see in any disorder are related

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Speaker 3: to this physiologically correct response. We have all sorts of

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Speaker 3: negative labels for it. So trauma at its core is

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Speaker 3: simply when the physiology of an individual is taxed beyond

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Speaker 3: its ability to adapt, and that does not require a

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Speaker 3: big bad event. Being in a stressful environment for prolonged

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Speaker 3: periods of time will do that. Repeated adversity will do that.

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Speaker 2: You mentioned toxic stress and chronic stress. What are the

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Speaker 2: to kinds of stress and are they what usually caused

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Speaker 2: the trauma?

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Speaker 3: So it's the reaction that people have to it first piece.

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Speaker 3: We're all all dealing with several kinds of stress. You know,

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Speaker 3: a lot of times people talk about big ta little tea,

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Speaker 3: and that's really not very useful. So let me give

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Speaker 3: you in a little bit of a different way. Looking

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Speaker 3: at you have acute stress, which is about an event

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Speaker 3: or situation. You know, a car accident, a mugging, a

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Speaker 3: natural disaster that's an acute event. Then you have the chronic,

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Speaker 3: which is maybe a lot less intense, but it's just repetitive.

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Speaker 3: It's happening over and over and over again.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 3: And then you have complex which is where not only

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Speaker 3: are you having almost daily overwhelmed, you're also experiencing a

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Speaker 3: lack of attachment support. And the primary stressors tend to

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Speaker 3: be related to connected relationships.

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Speaker 1: And attachment support. If anyone doesn't know what that means,

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Speaker 1: is like if you're a child and you're not receiving

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Speaker 1: the appropriate level of nurturing and attention from your caregiver basically.

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Speaker 3: Right, sure, and that they don't feel safe with the

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Speaker 3: adults in their world as a child. That creates this complexity.

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Speaker 3: The challenge is that if you think about this from

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Speaker 3: the point of view of an acute situation, things were

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Speaker 3: relatively okay or functioning well, you have this overwhelming thing happen,

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Speaker 3: and then after the fact, what you're struggling with is

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Speaker 3: getting back to that pre level of functionality. Most people

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Speaker 3: do that just fine without therapy. Probably twenty percent of

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Speaker 3: folks that go through that process need therapy, even but

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Speaker 3: most go through it because the structure of their world

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Speaker 3: has the supports built in to kind of help them

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Speaker 3: get through that. Where we start to see the emergence

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Speaker 3: of both mental health issues and behavioral issues is the

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Speaker 3: when it becomes chronic. You have the states happening again

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Speaker 3: and again and again and again, so you're getting overwhelmed

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Speaker 3: on a pretty regular basis if you have it just

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Speaker 3: as a constant flow of it. The way our bodies

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Speaker 3: are designed, our nervous system is built to survive, avoid distress,

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Speaker 3: and build habits around it, which is a conservation of

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Speaker 3: energy function. So what people do is they build belief

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Speaker 3: systems from their experiences, and they're always going to be

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Speaker 3: focused on safety or avoidance of distress as their primary function.

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Speaker 3: But everything on our society is suggesting that you need

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Speaker 3: to be oriented to future goals, and everything in their

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Speaker 3: world is about how do I feel safe? How do

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Speaker 3: I avoid distress? And then we're frustrated with people because

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Speaker 3: we want them to embark on some journey of improvement

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Speaker 3: which immediately shoves them into distress. I don't care what

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Speaker 3: you're doing. If you're going to go to the gym

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Speaker 3: and get in shape, you're going to go through distress.

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Speaker 1: That is true, I can attest I'm very sore right now.

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Speaker 3: So what you find is people in the helping professions

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Speaker 3: don't often understand that asking people with that kind of history,

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Speaker 3: a chronic or complex trauma history, asking them to step

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Speaker 3: into a future is very distressing to them and it

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Speaker 3: tends to shut them down. And so what ends up

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Speaker 3: happening is a lot of negative labeling around. They're resistant,

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Speaker 3: they're non compliant, they aren't motivated, and really that's not

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Speaker 3: the case at all. What it is a case of

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Speaker 3: is highly unskilled providers don't know how to recognize what

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Speaker 3: they're dealing with.

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Speaker 1: So basically, trauma is like a version of overwhelm in

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Speaker 1: our bodies. We can't handle it, so we respond by

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Speaker 1: either you said, anger and aggression or shutting down. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I guess, of course, people who have angry outbursts there's

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Speaker 1: something they're not dealing with that's underneath the anger. But

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Speaker 1: I guess I always think of trauma as like, oh,

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Speaker 1: I'm shutting down, I'm dissociating, I'm like cowering in the corner,

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Speaker 1: you know. Can you talk about the different responses that

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Speaker 1: we have and why?

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Speaker 3: So it's about control and you think I am overwhelmed.

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Speaker 3: I've lost control of myself. My body is doing these

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Speaker 3: amazing things, and I'm going to try to get in control.

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Speaker 3: So the aggressive piece of that, which we usually call

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Speaker 3: a reactive adaptation, that is often pretty aggressive, pretty hostile.

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Speaker 3: You'll see a lot of controlling behaviors. People will do

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Speaker 3: something actively to try to get control of it. They

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Speaker 3: may use starcasm, name calling, they may threaten because what

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Speaker 3: they're trying to do is get into a place where

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Speaker 3: they can feel safe.

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Speaker 1: Right, Hence, hurt people.

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Speaker 3: Hurt people, Oh yeah, hurt people, hurt.

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Speaker 1: But some people are just assholes, right or sociopaths.

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Speaker 3: All human beings are assholes.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, for sure.

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Speaker 3: You know, it just depends on the moment and the

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Speaker 3: situation that So the side of that is is the

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Speaker 3: one you were kind of talking about, is I'm still

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Speaker 3: trying to gain control, but I'm trying to contain control

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Speaker 3: of myself, so I shut down withdraw. So, if you

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Speaker 3: want to think of it, the two methods of dealing

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Speaker 3: with this generally are I'm going to try to control

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Speaker 3: me by shutting this experience down, or I'm going to

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Speaker 3: try to control others so that I.

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Speaker 4: By shutting their experiences down right right.

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Speaker 1: This explains one of my past relationships very succinctly. I

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Speaker 1: had an ex who he had a lot of attachment trauma,

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Speaker 1: but also just regular trauma repeatedly throughout his childhood, and

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Speaker 1: of course he was quite controlling within our relationship.

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Speaker 4: That's what I wanted to ask about.

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Speaker 2: You know, we talk about cults a lot on the show,

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Speaker 2: and religion, even if it's not culty, a lot of

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Speaker 2: people were raised being told Hell Israel and that you

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Speaker 2: could go there. Do you see a lot of people

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Speaker 2: suffering from trauma in that way, like religious trauma.

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Speaker 3: The problem with a history of trauma, what you would

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Speaker 3: find kind of growing to maturity and a cult is

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Speaker 3: is that the messages that are negative, that inner critic,

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Speaker 3: that the beliefs that are what I call hope destroyers

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Speaker 3: are firmly embedded and usually fairly young. So the Hell's

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Speaker 3: already there and they're already living in it. And when

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Speaker 3: you're in that level of arousal, you can't think clearly.

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Speaker 3: If you think about it, I'm going to kind of

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Speaker 3: use a silly metaphor, think about we moved through what's

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Speaker 3: called a regulation cycle. You're regulated you become disregulated and

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Speaker 3: you reregulate, so you're really hungry. You're disregulated, you grab

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Speaker 3: a box of oreos. Afterwards you're reregulated. That's the cycle

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Speaker 3: that we all go through where trauma symptoms emerge is

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Speaker 3: when people get in the disregulated state and can't reregulate.

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Speaker 3: You think of it this way, and I'm going to

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Speaker 3: use a Marvel comic metaphor. You're moving from being in

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Speaker 3: Bruce Banner mode, where you're calm and everything is really composed,

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Speaker 3: into the hulk mode, and then you have to move

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Speaker 3: from the Hulk mode back into Bruce Banner. We can

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Speaker 3: only function well, learn, grow, and be intentional when we're

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Speaker 3: in Bruce Banner mode. What I think is funny is

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Speaker 3: teachers will do this, and you know, all sorts of

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Speaker 3: folks engage, They engage the Hulk and they want to scold,

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Speaker 3: shame and control the Hulk rather than what do I

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Speaker 3: need to get people back into Bruce Banner mode?

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Speaker 1: Right?

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Speaker 3: And that's we do the same thing a lot of

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Speaker 3: times in the mental health world, and particularly people who

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Speaker 3: don't have much experience really working or understanding trauma will

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Speaker 3: try to dictate or do cognitive work with the Hulk

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Speaker 3: and it's funny to watch because they fail a lot.

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Speaker 3: And then what happens is those internalized messages that the

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Speaker 3: person got early in life about being worthless or broken

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Speaker 3: or damaged are reinforced because of the the unskilled, ungraceful

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Speaker 3: way that the person is working with them.

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Speaker 1: Right. So, basically, when you are disregulated for whatever reason,

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Speaker 1: you can't access the part of your brain that can

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Speaker 1: think more clearly and logically and plan. And we've talked

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Speaker 1: about a little bit of the like system one system

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Speaker 1: to sort of framework that Daniel Kaneman has written about.

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Speaker 1: System one is the whole. System two is Bruce Banner.

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Speaker 3: So think of it this way. System one is you're

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Speaker 3: a migleotis system that is survival and safety oriented.

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Speaker 1: Right right, just got to protect myself no matter what.

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Speaker 1: And then when you're a system too, you can actually

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Speaker 1: be like what was I thinking? What was I feeling?

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Speaker 1: Why was I responding that way? So basically, like if

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Speaker 1: we're having a trauma response, we know what to do

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Speaker 1: when we're hungry, what do we do when we're having

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Speaker 1: trauma response?

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Speaker 3: Well, in our society, we don't promote the regulation, No.

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Speaker 4: We promote the exact opposite working yourself too, my frenzy.

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Speaker 3: We focus on high levels of emotional which keep people disturbed.

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Speaker 2: Right, So what therapist just focusing on your high level

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Speaker 2: emotionality is not going to help you. That's not the

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Speaker 2: right content to focus on.

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Speaker 3: No, right, no, and or, And the cognitive function isn't

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Speaker 3: going to work well either, because the emotionals think of

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Speaker 3: it this way. When what are you really activating when

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Speaker 3: you access negative emotions? Is the survival system that that

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Speaker 3: primitive you know, amiglatis system and so, and you're as

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Speaker 3: soon as you access that, you pump your body full

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Speaker 3: of cortisol and noor, adrenaline and adrenaline and the function

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Speaker 3: of those increasing in your body shuts your hippocampus down,

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Speaker 3: which makes it inhibits your ability to think clearly.

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Speaker 1: Just to clarify for people who might not like have

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Speaker 1: context for what y'all are talking about, Like are you

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Speaker 1: talking about? Like if you're in therapy and you're just

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Speaker 1: like talking about the traumatic event over and over again,

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Speaker 1: what exactly do you mean?

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Speaker 3: So in the nineteen fifties, in the early days of

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Speaker 3: cognitive psychology, you had George Kelly come up with a

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Speaker 3: profound understanding about how cognition works, and I'm going to

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Speaker 3: simplify it for you. What you focus on, you get

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Speaker 3: more of. So having therapists focus on negative emotion generates

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Speaker 3: more negative emotion. But that's what they're all taught to

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Speaker 3: chase after, because of course, it's all about emotion in

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Speaker 3: our society, right you know, you know you're supposed to

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Speaker 3: purge your emotions and feel your emotions and do this,

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Speaker 3: and focusing on intense negative emotions just create more of them.

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Speaker 4: But are we supposed to repress them or what do

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Speaker 4: we do with them?

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Speaker 3: It's not amount of repressing them or not. That's kind

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Speaker 3: of an that comes out of that psychodynamic influence that

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Speaker 3: hopefully we eventually get away from. But it is it.

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Speaker 3: If you look at people that have been in care

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Speaker 3: for a while one of the and you do a

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Speaker 3: file review, what you're going to find the longer they're

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Speaker 3: in care, the more symptoms they develop, and the more

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Speaker 3: diagnoses they get and the more medications. Interesting why because

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Speaker 3: that perpetuates the system, and it perpetuates pharmacy companies. It

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Speaker 3: does not help your client.

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Speaker 1: For a lot of people, they probably went, especially a

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Speaker 1: lot of our listeners may have gone like many many

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Speaker 1: years without talking about what's happened to them. And so

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Speaker 1: just the simple act of like recognizing what happened and

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Speaker 1: expressing it is that is an important step, right, like

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Speaker 1: to initially like discuss it and feel it.

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Speaker 3: You bet you can get let me really correct you there.

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Speaker 3: It's being able to go through that story and do

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Speaker 3: it in a way that does not trigger negative emotions.

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Speaker 1: So how do we do that?

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Speaker 3: Well, that that's why you go to somebody that's skilled

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Speaker 3: and how to do that. But you know, let me

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Speaker 3: give you the difference in the way that the language,

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Speaker 3: the way the conversation can go. So if I am,

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Speaker 3: if you've had something like, you know, a long repressed

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Speaker 3: history of all sorts of traumatic events, what we would

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Speaker 3: do is begin we would talk about them. But you

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Speaker 3: want the client to be in the role of an

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Speaker 3: observer of the experience rather than reactivating all of the

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Speaker 3: negative pain associated with it, because they can move past

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Speaker 3: it once they can once they can engage that material

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Speaker 3: without it overwhelming them, right, then they can heal.

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Speaker 1: So that reminds me of you know, my experiences in E. M.

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Speaker 1: D R A bit where it's like we go through

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Speaker 1: it until it feels like neutral it doesn't feel charged anymore.

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Speaker 1: And it also reminds me of my experiences in ERP

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Speaker 1: for OCD, where I intentionally expose myself to the things

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Speaker 1: that I have an aversion to until I realize I

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Speaker 1: can tolerate the distress, and then they slowly become more

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Speaker 1: and more neutral and not a trigger anymore. Is that

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Speaker 1: kind of the stuff that you're talking about?

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Speaker 3: That's very much Almost all successful trauma models use what

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Speaker 3: we call divided consciousness. That's where you're both recalling an

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Speaker 3: experience and observing it at the same time, and you

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Speaker 3: the moment you activate the amigmous system, you pull them

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Speaker 3: right out of the ability to do that. So right,

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Speaker 3: people that keep talking about the feelings related to this,

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Speaker 3: you know you don't. We're not minimizing the feelings, but

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Speaker 3: you would pull it back into their body. So I

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Speaker 3: just felt this tremendous rage take over. Where did you

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Speaker 3: first notice that? What did you notice makes it worse?

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Speaker 3: Who were you around when it was at its least?

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Speaker 3: We're going to explore it completely, deconstrusued all around it,

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Speaker 3: but we aren't trying to recreate the emotion in the moment,

438
00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:07,960
Speaker 3: because that isn't going to be helpful.

439
00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:10,720
Speaker 1: Right, So it's almost like mindfulness. You have to like

440
00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:13,639
Speaker 1: kind of step back and observe what exactly was happening

441
00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:16,760
Speaker 1: for you physically when you have that emotional experience, and

442
00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:19,240
Speaker 1: like you said, become an observer of it as opposed

443
00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:21,600
Speaker 1: to just like being overwhelmed by it and stuck in

444
00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:22,080
Speaker 1: the feeling.

445
00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:26,920
Speaker 3: So, and you have to be relatively regulated in order

446
00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:27,920
Speaker 3: to do mindfulness.

447
00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:29,800
Speaker 2: So that would be where the therapist comes in. The

448
00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:31,840
Speaker 2: therapist needs to be regulated.

449
00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:33,400
Speaker 4: And do you all them?

450
00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:33,919
Speaker 3: Yeah?

451
00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:37,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, So that's that's what most people are missing in therapy,

452
00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:38,440
Speaker 2: is a regulated therapist.

453
00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:42,800
Speaker 3: Well, well, a regulated therapist, yes, but they don't. We don't.

454
00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:46,400
Speaker 3: We do not teach how to self regulate in our

455
00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:51,159
Speaker 3: society anywhere. And you know, and there's a lot of

456
00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:54,959
Speaker 3: pressure even in programs that are really good about teaching it,

457
00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:58,000
Speaker 3: you know, starting to teach it in the schools. The

458
00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:01,879
Speaker 3: problem is that nobody really wants us to be regulated

459
00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:07,080
Speaker 3: because it would seriously affect our consumer society. You know,

460
00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:09,679
Speaker 3: if you were really regulated and you were making decisions

461
00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:12,760
Speaker 3: based on logic rather than emotion, you wouldn't probably buy

462
00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:13,840
Speaker 3: most of the crap.

463
00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:19,600
Speaker 1: You buy, right, It wouldn't have Yeah, you wouldn't have.

464
00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:25,640
Speaker 3: A whole mountain of credit debt, you know, because you wouldn't.

465
00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:28,560
Speaker 3: That wouldn't make sense if you were doing it rationally.

466
00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:31,679
Speaker 3: But if you're if we can promote emotional decision making,

467
00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:35,840
Speaker 3: then we can sell junk. People don't need impulsively.

468
00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:39,120
Speaker 1: Right, But my excessive shopping is totally rational. I don't

469
00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:40,120
Speaker 1: know what you're talking about.

470
00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:43,960
Speaker 3: I'm just using that as an example.

471
00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:45,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, what we have.

472
00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:52,880
Speaker 3: Found is that the large systems support a trauma generating system.

473
00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:56,840
Speaker 1: Well, the news cycle, I mean is the perfect example.

474
00:25:56,960 --> 00:25:59,280
Speaker 1: Like we if we're not all in a state of

475
00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:02,680
Speaker 1: panic and then we're dead, then yeah, well then they

476
00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:04,840
Speaker 1: sell no newspaper, you know, like they have to. They

477
00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:08,920
Speaker 1: have to make the headlines really dysregulating.

478
00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:10,640
Speaker 3: Because they're trying to sell stuff.

479
00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:11,280
Speaker 1: Right exactly.

480
00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:11,719
Speaker 3: So.

481
00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:15,240
Speaker 1: But the therapists, I I just like I cannot stress

482
00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:18,240
Speaker 1: enough to people to find therapists who specialize in the

483
00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:21,280
Speaker 1: thing that you're going through, because I definitely it took

484
00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:24,119
Speaker 1: me a long time to get the appropriate kind of

485
00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:27,960
Speaker 1: treatment because I kept just picking therapists who like were

486
00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:30,439
Speaker 1: on my insurance and they had like a pretty picture

487
00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:35,200
Speaker 1: fifty things list, just me, fifty things listed in their

488
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:36,879
Speaker 1: specialty and I'm like, well, that's one of that. But

489
00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:39,320
Speaker 1: it's not like they're the focus of their practice. But

490
00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:42,840
Speaker 1: anyone who's dealing with something like OCD or panic disorder

491
00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:47,120
Speaker 1: or PTSD like should probably see someone who really specializes

492
00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:49,280
Speaker 1: and really is trained in that. Don't get me started

493
00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:52,040
Speaker 1: on our mental health care system and how most people

494
00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:53,680
Speaker 1: don't have specialists on their insurance.

495
00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:55,199
Speaker 4: But it's like a genre.

496
00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:58,800
Speaker 2: You know, you want Steven Spielberg to direct your sci

497
00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:02,000
Speaker 2: fi thing, you got to pick the person working.

498
00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:04,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, you need someone in the trauma gen Yeah.

499
00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:05,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a traumajan.

500
00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:11,439
Speaker 3: And I agree with you there. You know, basically, people

501
00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:15,600
Speaker 3: in private practice will list that they do really everything,

502
00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:20,000
Speaker 3: and you know, people always kind of chuggle at me

503
00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:23,240
Speaker 3: when I was, you know, running clinics, say we do this,

504
00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:26,680
Speaker 3: this is what we do. It's the only thing to do. Yeah,

505
00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:28,920
Speaker 3: And they said, well, how can you make any money

506
00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:32,520
Speaker 3: on that? Well, I don't know. We have six month

507
00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:37,920
Speaker 3: waiting list, you know. Okay, wow, but it is. It

508
00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:41,280
Speaker 3: is kind of a crazy world and a lot of

509
00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:44,000
Speaker 3: the you know, I taught in a counseling program for

510
00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:46,760
Speaker 3: nearly twenty years and one of the things I used

511
00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:49,919
Speaker 3: to get really interested in is there are people that

512
00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:53,640
Speaker 3: are really smart that should never be with clients. And

513
00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:56,520
Speaker 3: when I would have these conversations with the leadership of

514
00:27:56,560 --> 00:28:00,280
Speaker 3: the school, they would say, you cannot dismiss them or

515
00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:03,400
Speaker 3: encourage them to go to another program because it affects

516
00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:09,040
Speaker 3: our revenue. But there and programs are designed to either

517
00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:14,480
Speaker 3: focus on the exploration of emotion or cognitive behavior, and

518
00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:17,720
Speaker 3: your trauma client isn't going to function well in either

519
00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:18,240
Speaker 3: of those.

520
00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:23,240
Speaker 1: So stepping back a little bit, so when we talked

521
00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:25,800
Speaker 1: on just you and I before at this interview, you

522
00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:29,359
Speaker 1: said something really interesting, which was that I asked you,

523
00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:34,159
Speaker 1: you know, are there any particular healing modalities that we

524
00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:37,399
Speaker 1: should employ in our trauma recovery? And you made a

525
00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:39,080
Speaker 1: really good point. So I will now let you make it.

526
00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:43,160
Speaker 3: Let me clearly state I have a bias. The research

527
00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:46,560
Speaker 3: is that's out there that's been coming forward an increasing

528
00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:52,480
Speaker 3: amounts since the early nineties suggests that the process of

529
00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:56,000
Speaker 3: working with a client is more important than a model

530
00:28:56,000 --> 00:29:00,880
Speaker 3: of treatment, and in fact, models of treatment at the

531
00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:05,680
Speaker 3: best only impact the outcome of treatment. Around Most of

532
00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:07,680
Speaker 3: the research says one and a half or two percent,

533
00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:10,480
Speaker 3: but some of it says as much as fine, but

534
00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:14,360
Speaker 3: when you're actually you know, people put all this emphasis

535
00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:18,680
Speaker 3: in to their model, and there's a there's a really

536
00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:23,520
Speaker 3: good there's a good reason that why mental health organizations

537
00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:28,959
Speaker 3: promote that, and that it keeps people sick because when

538
00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:32,240
Speaker 3: you're focused on the model, you don't focus on the relationship.

539
00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:35,840
Speaker 3: And the thing that we know is the largest influence

540
00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:43,400
Speaker 3: is the ability of the therapist who is well regulated

541
00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:47,440
Speaker 3: to be able to connect with in a safe form,

542
00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:51,440
Speaker 3: a safe and secure attachment with the client that has

543
00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:55,720
Speaker 3: That is the most impactful element for an outcome and

544
00:29:55,800 --> 00:30:01,200
Speaker 3: therapy that there is. It's fully half of what influences.

545
00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:01,880
Speaker 2: Wow.

546
00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:06,560
Speaker 3: So what we've done is put all this emphasis on

547
00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:10,960
Speaker 3: models of treatment rather than you have to be regulated

548
00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:13,719
Speaker 3: yourself and you have to be able to attach to people.

549
00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:17,360
Speaker 3: And organizations don't want you to do that. They want

550
00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:18,880
Speaker 3: you to be efficient, they want to give you one

551
00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:21,520
Speaker 3: hundred clients. They want you to you know, and it

552
00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:26,280
Speaker 3: it becomes about billing. And if you can build and

553
00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:28,880
Speaker 3: not get complaints, then you're a wonderful therapist.

554
00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:34,160
Speaker 1: You also said something about how once we're regulated it's

555
00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:37,280
Speaker 1: almost not even that important. Like once we learn how

556
00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:42,400
Speaker 1: to bring that overwhelmed down and like get back into

557
00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:46,440
Speaker 1: our bodies, then any number of treatments could work.

558
00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:47,960
Speaker 3: Anything will work.

559
00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:50,480
Speaker 1: I think that is so interesting, you know, I see

560
00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:55,000
Speaker 1: a lot of emphasis in my nerdom of the psychology

561
00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:58,120
Speaker 1: community on like this is the one. You know, there's

562
00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:00,959
Speaker 1: like a copyright symbol behind the man's name about how

563
00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:04,240
Speaker 1: this particular treatment is gonna it's the thing that works,

564
00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:04,520
Speaker 1: you know.

565
00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:08,440
Speaker 3: So what happens is once you know, while you're developing it,

566
00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:12,600
Speaker 3: you know you're really intent making sure that you get

567
00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:14,640
Speaker 3: a good connection with your client, because I mean it's

568
00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:18,560
Speaker 3: really important. You're collecting data too. But once you've got

569
00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:20,640
Speaker 3: a once you've got a model and you know it works,

570
00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:25,440
Speaker 3: the moment it becomes a product, it is now it's

571
00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:29,960
Speaker 3: now a sales job. And what you find it can

572
00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:32,520
Speaker 3: be used for everything. Now. E m d R is

573
00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:35,640
Speaker 3: a good example of this. EMDR was is really designed

574
00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:39,000
Speaker 3: to work with acute trauma, and now you have people

575
00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:42,960
Speaker 3: using it for all sorts of bizarre things because the

576
00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:44,920
Speaker 3: e m DR people say, oh, it's good for this,

577
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:46,600
Speaker 3: and it's good for this, and it's good for this.

578
00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:49,880
Speaker 3: But if you look at the research, it wasn't really

579
00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:51,160
Speaker 3: designed for that.

580
00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:55,040
Speaker 1: And the reason for that is because you are focusing

581
00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:59,880
Speaker 1: on specific memories that feel very charged and right like,

582
00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:01,960
Speaker 1: and if it's just a general thing or maybe like

583
00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:05,960
Speaker 1: complex trauma or chronic trauma, it's not going to be

584
00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:07,560
Speaker 1: the same thing. Necessarily, it doesn't.

585
00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:10,720
Speaker 3: It doesn't work as well, right And in fact, if

586
00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:14,200
Speaker 3: you look at a lot of the research around that,

587
00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:20,640
Speaker 3: you find that traditional models of treatment and many of

588
00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:24,400
Speaker 3: the post traumatic stress which is based most of those

589
00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:28,720
Speaker 3: models are based on an acute event. They become less

590
00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:31,960
Speaker 3: efficient the more chronic or complex trauma is.

591
00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:35,000
Speaker 1: I really want to know about what some of the

592
00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:38,400
Speaker 1: differences are, Like this one like EMDR might not be

593
00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:42,280
Speaker 1: the best treatment for chronic trauma. What are the differences

594
00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:45,600
Speaker 1: in how we can heal from these different things?

595
00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:49,960
Speaker 3: So first let me kind of walk you through that.

596
00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:53,440
Speaker 3: You have to be able to create the environment where

597
00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:56,640
Speaker 3: healing can occur. Tell us about that first and foremost,

598
00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:59,880
Speaker 3: you have to be able to regulate you. You cannot

599
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:02,880
Speaker 3: help somebody else go to a place you can't get

600
00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:09,480
Speaker 3: to yourself. And that's really hard when I'm training therapists

601
00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:12,400
Speaker 3: that that is really the hardest part is getting a

602
00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:15,160
Speaker 3: therapist to be able to regulate well enough to sit

603
00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:16,600
Speaker 3: with a disregulated client.

604
00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:19,280
Speaker 1: Do either of you have experiences with therapists who are

605
00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:22,920
Speaker 1: disregulating within the sessions with their clients. Of course? Yeah?

606
00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:25,080
Speaker 1: Really tell me how, because I feel like I feel

607
00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:27,680
Speaker 1: like maybe I just have had really stoic therapists.

608
00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:34,160
Speaker 3: Well, it looks, you know, if the therapist is in

609
00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:35,920
Speaker 3: their head trying to figure out what to do or

610
00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:38,480
Speaker 3: how to make sense of what you're saying, or they're

611
00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:43,280
Speaker 3: becoming reactive themselves, they're not regulated anymore. If they have

612
00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:48,400
Speaker 3: been trained to think that empathy is about feeling somebody

613
00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:52,240
Speaker 3: else's pain, they're disregulating themselves in a session.

614
00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:54,880
Speaker 4: What's the correct way to think about empathy?

615
00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:59,640
Speaker 3: Empathy is about really is about understanding how human beings

616
00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:02,080
Speaker 3: work and having tolerance for that.

617
00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:05,560
Speaker 2: Oh interesting, Yeah, I don't. I don't have any tolerance.

618
00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:07,600
Speaker 2: That's a good, good idea.

619
00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:08,640
Speaker 4: I guess.

620
00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:09,279
Speaker 2: Yeah.

621
00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:12,319
Speaker 1: I've had moments with therapists where I feel like I

622
00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:15,480
Speaker 1: can see that they've gotten insecure because they feel like

623
00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:17,879
Speaker 1: they're not doing it right. That's the closest I.

624
00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:21,200
Speaker 3: Think, and that's just they're disregulating at that moment, the

625
00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:24,239
Speaker 3: moment that happens, their body's pumping in extra cortisol and

626
00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:30,320
Speaker 3: nora adredaline and they're losing access to their executive functioning system.

627
00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:31,319
Speaker 4: So what would you do?

628
00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:35,719
Speaker 3: Find the easiest way for those therapists to get through

629
00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:38,960
Speaker 3: the session is to ask you an emotionally latent question,

630
00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:40,879
Speaker 3: let you talk, and they can just shut down.

631
00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:45,600
Speaker 1: Well, all right, So for people who are going to

632
00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:49,960
Speaker 1: therapy and who are not therapists, please continue. You were saying,

633
00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:52,839
Speaker 1: first we have to sort of find a therapist who

634
00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:56,880
Speaker 1: you know is well regular themselves, and then you.

635
00:34:56,800 --> 00:34:59,520
Speaker 3: Have to you have to help the client be successful. Remember,

636
00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:05,440
Speaker 3: people trauma histories are always looking for certainty, safety, and clarity,

637
00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:08,839
Speaker 3: and so when you get them into the process, you

638
00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:12,040
Speaker 3: want to orient them thoroughly. You want to lay out

639
00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:14,920
Speaker 3: exactly what it's going to look like. You want to

640
00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:18,239
Speaker 3: help them see what other people have done when they've

641
00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:21,480
Speaker 3: run into roadblocks, and you'll run into roadblocks. These are

642
00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:24,319
Speaker 3: the common roadblocks. You lay them out, you explain them,

643
00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:28,719
Speaker 3: you talk about how people get past them, you talk

644
00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:32,000
Speaker 3: about the format of a session, you talk about you

645
00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:35,279
Speaker 3: really do make it very very clear. And when you

646
00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:38,760
Speaker 3: make it very clear. You make it safe. You also

647
00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:41,439
Speaker 3: are going to talk about the areas in your own

648
00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:46,120
Speaker 3: life which may interfere with their therapy and look like,

649
00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:49,440
Speaker 3: for example, if you were working with me, I'm going

650
00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:52,080
Speaker 3: to warn you that I really love the science, and

651
00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:55,040
Speaker 3: sometimes if you ask a question and I jump into

652
00:35:55,239 --> 00:36:04,480
Speaker 3: unfolding a piece of research on genetics and trauma, you're

653
00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:07,399
Speaker 3: welcome to say, hey, you know you're off the mark

654
00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:10,720
Speaker 3: because I love that stuff, and I tend to. Somebody

655
00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:14,520
Speaker 3: asked me a question, I get this moment and there

656
00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:19,160
Speaker 3: I go, and that's likely to impact your session. You know.

657
00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:21,719
Speaker 3: I also have people tell me sometimes that I talk

658
00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:25,920
Speaker 3: over their head, and that's probably true. You know, I

659
00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:29,960
Speaker 3: lectured in college classes, graduate classes for twenty years, and

660
00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:33,200
Speaker 3: I love research, and I tend if I'm not really

661
00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:35,359
Speaker 3: being mindful, I tend to do that. So I just

662
00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:37,799
Speaker 3: I'm really clear. I tell them the things that they're

663
00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:40,280
Speaker 3: likely to run into working with me. Let's be honest.

664
00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:43,480
Speaker 3: We're all weird in our own special way, and what

665
00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:45,320
Speaker 3: we do a lot of times is we want to

666
00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:48,319
Speaker 3: hide that and not be honest about it. But if

667
00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:50,879
Speaker 3: I can be honest with them about what they're going

668
00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:53,719
Speaker 3: to experience working with me. I make it safe for

669
00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:55,359
Speaker 3: them to tell me about them.

670
00:36:56,080 --> 00:36:56,680
Speaker 4: I love that.

671
00:36:56,800 --> 00:36:58,840
Speaker 1: I've never had a therapist do that. It reminds me

672
00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:02,719
Speaker 1: of when I've interviewed potential roommates for my home and

673
00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:04,640
Speaker 1: I'm like, here's what it's going to be like. I'm

674
00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:06,880
Speaker 1: never going to do the dishes, there's always going to

675
00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:09,080
Speaker 1: be a pile of laundry, and my dog has peepads

676
00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:11,279
Speaker 1: in the hallway. Other than that, it's fucking awesome to

677
00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:13,200
Speaker 1: live with me, but you better you better know that

678
00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:14,360
Speaker 1: this is what you're signing up for.

679
00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:16,839
Speaker 4: I mean, is it smart to say I'm going through

680
00:37:16,840 --> 00:37:19,560
Speaker 4: a divorce right now? So just heads up? Or is

681
00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:20,000
Speaker 4: that too?

682
00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:25,360
Speaker 3: That's kind of you want to focus it on character, yeah,

683
00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:30,440
Speaker 3: and not on your life events. Once they have that

684
00:37:30,560 --> 00:37:34,040
Speaker 3: safe space, then we begin to immediately educate them about

685
00:37:34,520 --> 00:37:37,360
Speaker 3: what the body's doing, and we break it up into little,

686
00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:40,759
Speaker 3: tiny pieces so that we can help draw out their

687
00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:44,560
Speaker 3: own life experience to attach to it, and then we

688
00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:47,200
Speaker 3: work on getting them regulated. This is all before you

689
00:37:47,239 --> 00:37:51,960
Speaker 3: employ any model of treatment whatsoever. And once once they

690
00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:55,919
Speaker 3: get regulating, pretty well, a lot of times they don't

691
00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:56,520
Speaker 3: need therapy.

692
00:37:58,239 --> 00:38:01,840
Speaker 1: Practically speaking, you know, let's say I am traumatized, but

693
00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:05,759
Speaker 1: I can't get into a session for three months, and

694
00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:07,520
Speaker 1: in the meantime, I have to figure out how to

695
00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:10,160
Speaker 1: self regulate. What can I do well.

696
00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:12,879
Speaker 3: You need to know what easy skills, because you need

697
00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:16,080
Speaker 3: skills that are quick. For mindfulness skills, you need to

698
00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:18,560
Speaker 3: be able to focus for a long time. But for

699
00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:21,520
Speaker 3: you know, you need something that's pretty quick, less than

700
00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:24,080
Speaker 3: less than a minute to get you started on the process.

701
00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:26,520
Speaker 3: You may have to do two or three things, but

702
00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:29,160
Speaker 3: you need to really quick ones. And there's lots of

703
00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:31,760
Speaker 3: them out there. You know. We spend a good portion

704
00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:35,400
Speaker 3: of every training that we do kind of giving people

705
00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:37,680
Speaker 3: some of the easy ones. One of the things that

706
00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:39,720
Speaker 3: I use, and I use it a number of times

707
00:38:39,719 --> 00:38:43,319
Speaker 3: every day, is simply sigh, and I will I will

708
00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:45,960
Speaker 3: model that for folks. Look, I even set up in

709
00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:48,560
Speaker 3: my orientation of them. You know, I don't know you

710
00:38:48,719 --> 00:38:50,959
Speaker 3: very well, and as we get to know each other,

711
00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:53,600
Speaker 3: that'll be great. But right now, when it's new and

712
00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:55,439
Speaker 3: I don't know you very well, I'm trying to listen

713
00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:57,840
Speaker 3: to what you say and I'm trying to organize it.

714
00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:03,080
Speaker 3: Sometimes I get lost, and I used to pretend like

715
00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:05,160
Speaker 3: I knew what I was doing until I could catch up.

716
00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:06,920
Speaker 3: But now I'm just going to tell you that I

717
00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:09,120
Speaker 3: got lost, and I'm going to ask you if it's

718
00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:11,319
Speaker 3: okay if I just take thirty seconds and get me

719
00:39:11,520 --> 00:39:13,680
Speaker 3: focused against so I can hear you. So I just

720
00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:16,560
Speaker 3: tell them that right up front, and then I so

721
00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:19,280
Speaker 3: that I can model a number of things for them.

722
00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:23,080
Speaker 3: Therapists always want to teach clients, but if you have

723
00:39:23,200 --> 00:39:26,000
Speaker 3: a client that's in hulk mode, you have to help

724
00:39:26,040 --> 00:39:29,000
Speaker 3: them have an experience because you're not going to get

725
00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:32,360
Speaker 3: anything through to them by teaching. So I would I

726
00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:35,280
Speaker 3: would interrupt. Remember when I told you I sometimes get lost.

727
00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:37,759
Speaker 3: It happened to me. Now I would it be okay

728
00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:40,040
Speaker 3: if I just took thirty seconds and got me in

729
00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:43,120
Speaker 3: shape so I can really focus. In years of doing that,

730
00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:45,359
Speaker 3: I'd never have a client say no, please stay lost

731
00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:49,960
Speaker 3: and confused and I'm just sigh like this, So for me,

732
00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:54,040
Speaker 3: I sigh and that really helps. So I sigh as

733
00:39:54,040 --> 00:39:57,160
Speaker 3: I do that, I can really feel this area relax,

734
00:39:58,320 --> 00:40:01,040
Speaker 3: But my thinking is still little bit racing. Would it

735
00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:02,800
Speaker 3: be okay if I just did it one more time?

736
00:40:04,160 --> 00:40:07,960
Speaker 1: So what is that actually doing? How? How is that

737
00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:09,279
Speaker 1: settling our bodies down?

738
00:40:09,320 --> 00:40:13,440
Speaker 3: For me, it triggers because I you know, I use

739
00:40:13,680 --> 00:40:16,160
Speaker 3: the strategies I use. I use them every day, whether

740
00:40:16,280 --> 00:40:18,600
Speaker 3: I'm at work or not. What it does is it

741
00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:23,000
Speaker 3: immediately just brings down a little bit of arousal and

742
00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:27,080
Speaker 3: it begins to self correct that my body pumping in

743
00:40:27,200 --> 00:40:30,280
Speaker 3: the hormones that it is when I'm when I'm aroused.

744
00:40:30,719 --> 00:40:33,759
Speaker 3: But for the client, the first time I do it,

745
00:40:34,280 --> 00:40:38,759
Speaker 3: they watch. But almost everybody the second time I do it,

746
00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:41,640
Speaker 3: because I've just told them that how it benefits me.

747
00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:44,600
Speaker 3: The second time I do it, almost always they do

748
00:40:44,680 --> 00:40:47,799
Speaker 3: it with me. I don't ask them to, they just do.

749
00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:48,480
Speaker 2: Right.

750
00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:53,879
Speaker 3: A lot of the self regulation strategies are conveyed through modeling, not.

751
00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:58,239
Speaker 1: Teaching well because again most there will probably be a

752
00:40:58,280 --> 00:41:01,920
Speaker 1: lot of listeners who are not therests and maybe not

753
00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:04,880
Speaker 1: in therapy yet. I just want to like outline basically,

754
00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:07,280
Speaker 1: if we're in a state of arousal, our nervous system

755
00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:10,640
Speaker 1: is like kind of supercharged, and we have to get

756
00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:12,320
Speaker 1: back into our bodies somehow.

757
00:41:12,400 --> 00:41:17,279
Speaker 3: Right right, what you have is the safety and the

758
00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:19,560
Speaker 3: avoidance system is being charged.

759
00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:23,640
Speaker 1: And we calm it down with the breath for people.

760
00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:27,120
Speaker 3: For some people, breath works really well. If you have

761
00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:31,200
Speaker 3: people that were strangled as a child, or held under

762
00:41:31,239 --> 00:41:35,759
Speaker 3: water as punishment, or had stress related asthma, you don't

763
00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:40,520
Speaker 3: want to use breath activities, right, But you know, some

764
00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:45,359
Speaker 3: people do really well with sensory kind of things, different textures.

765
00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:48,440
Speaker 3: One of the ones that I use a lot of times,

766
00:41:48,440 --> 00:41:53,839
Speaker 3: which is really simple, is a little rubber ball and

767
00:41:53,880 --> 00:41:56,839
Speaker 3: I have them take their shoes off and see if

768
00:41:56,840 --> 00:41:59,160
Speaker 3: they can grip that little rubber ball in their toes.

769
00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:05,240
Speaker 3: Because the focus on doing an activity absorbs our attention

770
00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:07,080
Speaker 3: and calms our system down.

771
00:42:07,320 --> 00:42:09,600
Speaker 1: Let's talk about that. So this has been such a

772
00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:13,440
Speaker 1: big part of my own therapy journey is that I

773
00:42:13,480 --> 00:42:17,440
Speaker 1: get hyper fixated on the fear. I get hyper fixated,

774
00:42:17,640 --> 00:42:20,399
Speaker 1: you know, because I have obsessive thoughts. So I get

775
00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:22,920
Speaker 1: fixated on the thing that I think is happening. And

776
00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:25,719
Speaker 1: the biggest skill that I've had to learn is how

777
00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:29,279
Speaker 1: to acknowledge that that thought is there, not try to

778
00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:31,720
Speaker 1: push it away. Acknowledge that it's there, but then shift

779
00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:34,960
Speaker 1: your focus to something else that absorbs your intention completely.

780
00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:38,479
Speaker 1: So that's kind of the same thing for trauma, right.

781
00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:40,480
Speaker 1: In addition to OCD well.

782
00:42:40,480 --> 00:42:46,439
Speaker 3: Yes, well, OCD is generated off of those the same

783
00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:49,400
Speaker 3: kinds of thought patterns that we see emerge in trauma.

784
00:42:51,120 --> 00:42:54,239
Speaker 3: So yeah, there's all sorts of fun things you can do.

785
00:42:54,320 --> 00:42:57,359
Speaker 3: I mean, when I'm working with team clients, they love it.

786
00:42:57,400 --> 00:43:00,359
Speaker 3: And if I'm working with families around this, so I

787
00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:03,160
Speaker 3: have to warn teachers at school, I teach people to

788
00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:06,680
Speaker 3: do the kiss. You know, Gene Simmons, you know who

789
00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:09,319
Speaker 3: that I'm talking about. Yeah, I even call it the

790
00:43:09,360 --> 00:43:14,399
Speaker 3: Gene Simmons because it changes your whole focus. I want

791
00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:17,560
Speaker 3: you to stick your tongue out as far as you

792
00:43:17,680 --> 00:43:21,360
Speaker 3: can and make the most the most rock face you

793
00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:26,279
Speaker 3: can think of. And and it sounds really silly, It

794
00:43:26,320 --> 00:43:32,720
Speaker 3: looks silly, but it really does help changes your focus.

795
00:43:32,800 --> 00:43:35,960
Speaker 1: Sure, go ahead, you have to do I'm not doing.

796
00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:40,160
Speaker 3: Okay, Oh come on, you can get that tongue out

797
00:43:43,200 --> 00:43:46,279
Speaker 3: and so you know, you get you can make it

798
00:43:46,360 --> 00:43:49,360
Speaker 3: kind of fun, you can make it kind of silly,

799
00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:52,560
Speaker 3: but you're what you're doing is changing focus.

800
00:43:52,840 --> 00:43:57,080
Speaker 1: Changing focus, and is acknowledging the thought or like the

801
00:43:57,120 --> 00:44:00,680
Speaker 1: fear in the moment is like is the knowledgement of

802
00:44:00,719 --> 00:44:04,160
Speaker 1: that important? Like, oh, I'm experiencing a fear reaction is

803
00:44:04,200 --> 00:44:06,000
Speaker 1: that it can be, but.

804
00:44:06,080 --> 00:44:08,160
Speaker 3: You know, if you're working depends on the age and

805
00:44:08,200 --> 00:44:12,279
Speaker 3: experience of the client. With fifth graders never going to

806
00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:16,080
Speaker 3: go for insight. With a forty year old, you may

807
00:44:16,120 --> 00:44:21,480
Speaker 3: want to so, but the skill is the same. It's

808
00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:24,399
Speaker 3: just do they have to understand when when they do it.

809
00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:28,239
Speaker 3: What we try to focus on is is scanning your

810
00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:31,239
Speaker 3: body and if you're feeling tension, what can you do?

811
00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:37,040
Speaker 3: You know you can. One that is really kind of

812
00:44:37,080 --> 00:44:42,480
Speaker 3: silly but works really well is humming or whistling. It

813
00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:45,440
Speaker 3: changes your focus and it changes your breathing, but it

814
00:44:45,520 --> 00:44:48,320
Speaker 3: changes your breathing in a safe way rather than practicing

815
00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:52,400
Speaker 3: breathing exercises, and you know, and you want it to

816
00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:56,440
Speaker 3: be something really silly, like some children's lyric like row

817
00:44:56,480 --> 00:44:57,520
Speaker 3: Row your Boat.

818
00:44:57,360 --> 00:44:59,560
Speaker 1: Or Twinkle Twinkle, Twinkle tingle.

819
00:44:59,800 --> 00:45:03,000
Speaker 3: When the kids broke into A six year old broke

820
00:45:03,040 --> 00:45:06,120
Speaker 3: into one of the songs from Frozen.

821
00:45:08,239 --> 00:45:10,320
Speaker 1: It's a good one, yep, which is really.

822
00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:12,239
Speaker 3: Funny to kind of watch them try to us to

823
00:45:12,280 --> 00:45:15,719
Speaker 3: whistle it when they're not when they're not a great

824
00:45:15,719 --> 00:45:20,600
Speaker 3: whistler anyway, but you know, it totally totally interrupts that

825
00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:24,839
Speaker 3: focus right on the fears or what their body is experiencing.

826
00:45:25,200 --> 00:45:29,000
Speaker 1: So when we are sort of training ourselves to not

827
00:45:29,160 --> 00:45:31,399
Speaker 1: focus so hard on like I'm scared, I'm scared, I'm scared,

828
00:45:31,400 --> 00:45:34,200
Speaker 1: I'm scared, I'm scared, but to like do something else

829
00:45:34,239 --> 00:45:37,480
Speaker 1: and sort of interrupt that system, does that just like

830
00:45:37,600 --> 00:45:40,960
Speaker 1: become easier over time? Like are we when?

831
00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:43,120
Speaker 4: When does this become easier? Bob?

832
00:45:45,200 --> 00:45:50,440
Speaker 3: So the brain hierarchy is designed really interestingly, so if

833
00:45:50,480 --> 00:45:52,319
Speaker 3: you think of it, you have you're really looking at

834
00:45:52,360 --> 00:45:57,839
Speaker 3: four systems. The first one is survival and and when

835
00:45:57,920 --> 00:46:02,520
Speaker 3: survival is activated, the conservation of energy part of your

836
00:46:02,520 --> 00:46:06,600
Speaker 3: brain is activated as well. The conservation of energy aspect

837
00:46:06,760 --> 00:46:11,200
Speaker 3: is how do I habituate survival behavior so that it

838
00:46:11,239 --> 00:46:16,360
Speaker 3: becomes automatic, so it's like an autopilot, And so survival,

839
00:46:17,280 --> 00:46:22,480
Speaker 3: conservation of energy, survival conservation of energy. The other when

840
00:46:22,520 --> 00:46:26,279
Speaker 3: you activate the next piece, which is avoidance. When you

841
00:46:26,320 --> 00:46:32,480
Speaker 3: activate avoidance, you're also activating that conservation of energy, so

842
00:46:32,560 --> 00:46:38,360
Speaker 3: you build all sorts of well developed neuropathways. The nature

843
00:46:38,600 --> 00:46:43,440
Speaker 3: of being a human being is because our whole system

844
00:46:43,560 --> 00:46:50,080
Speaker 3: is scaled towards survival, and you know, safety and avoidance,

845
00:46:51,080 --> 00:46:54,040
Speaker 3: it's part of the survival mechanism we have, we tend

846
00:46:54,040 --> 00:47:01,160
Speaker 3: to overlearn those, those pathways of conservation, and when we

847
00:47:01,200 --> 00:47:06,320
Speaker 3: move into a regulated system where we have executive functioning,

848
00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:11,319
Speaker 3: we tend to underlearn those. In conservation of energy, we

849
00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:13,879
Speaker 3: have to do them a lot longer, a lot more

850
00:47:13,920 --> 00:47:19,240
Speaker 3: often in order to develop the neuropathways that they become

851
00:47:19,360 --> 00:47:20,880
Speaker 3: automatic behavior.

852
00:47:21,960 --> 00:47:24,000
Speaker 1: Energy. What does that mean?

853
00:47:24,600 --> 00:47:27,560
Speaker 3: That's the part of your that's your system's way. They're

854
00:47:27,560 --> 00:47:31,200
Speaker 3: building habit, So something becomes automatic. You know, there's lots

855
00:47:31,239 --> 00:47:33,560
Speaker 3: of different pieces involved, but it's if you just think

856
00:47:33,600 --> 00:47:36,120
Speaker 3: of it as the part of you that's looking to make.

857
00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:39,520
Speaker 1: This easy, right right, right, okay, And.

858
00:47:39,400 --> 00:47:42,920
Speaker 3: So our systems are designed to make it easy, to

859
00:47:43,080 --> 00:47:47,440
Speaker 3: be safe and to avoid it's we don't have a

860
00:47:47,560 --> 00:47:54,799
Speaker 3: very good mechanism for employing the conservation of energy in

861
00:47:55,040 --> 00:48:00,640
Speaker 3: our executive functioning system unless we can really focus. And

862
00:48:00,680 --> 00:48:04,759
Speaker 3: so the more intently we can focus on something while

863
00:48:04,760 --> 00:48:09,000
Speaker 3: we're in that state, the more we'll build. More conservation

864
00:48:09,080 --> 00:48:11,799
Speaker 3: of energy is built into that. In other words, more

865
00:48:11,800 --> 00:48:12,960
Speaker 3: habit is built into it.

866
00:48:13,080 --> 00:48:15,040
Speaker 1: Can I try to summarize what you just said and

867
00:48:15,040 --> 00:48:17,239
Speaker 1: tell me if I'm doing it wrong. The more we

868
00:48:17,239 --> 00:48:21,000
Speaker 1: can pause and concentrate and be intentional to use your

869
00:48:21,040 --> 00:48:24,880
Speaker 1: word in a moment of arousal. The more that can

870
00:48:24,960 --> 00:48:26,880
Speaker 1: kind of be a habit that we build, and it

871
00:48:26,920 --> 00:48:30,440
Speaker 1: sort of starts to happen naturally, but it takes a

872
00:48:30,480 --> 00:48:32,879
Speaker 1: period of really working on it and it being very

873
00:48:32,880 --> 00:48:35,919
Speaker 1: difficult to sort of focus and do the correct thing

874
00:48:36,080 --> 00:48:37,200
Speaker 1: in that state of arousal.

875
00:48:37,520 --> 00:48:40,440
Speaker 3: It is because our society isn't designed to support people

876
00:48:40,480 --> 00:48:42,239
Speaker 3: focusing on something right.

877
00:48:42,640 --> 00:48:44,839
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's one thing after another, and.

878
00:48:44,800 --> 00:48:48,239
Speaker 3: We promote it by saying, well, people multitask. If you

879
00:48:48,280 --> 00:48:51,759
Speaker 3: want to develop patterns that are useful, you focus on

880
00:48:51,760 --> 00:48:55,279
Speaker 3: one thing and you focus intently on it until you've

881
00:48:55,320 --> 00:48:56,600
Speaker 3: done it multiple times.

882
00:48:57,080 --> 00:49:00,640
Speaker 1: And the brain is plastic. For people who don't know

883
00:49:00,680 --> 00:49:05,680
Speaker 1: what this means, our brains are constantly changing and restructuring,

884
00:49:05,719 --> 00:49:09,600
Speaker 1: and we can like forge new This is how habits

885
00:49:09,600 --> 00:49:12,480
Speaker 1: are built. Is we're like basically laying down new pathways

886
00:49:12,520 --> 00:49:14,279
Speaker 1: and then laying them down again and laying them down again.

887
00:49:14,280 --> 00:49:15,959
Speaker 1: That's why it's so hard to do a new job

888
00:49:16,040 --> 00:49:18,319
Speaker 1: in the beginning, and it gets easier over time because

889
00:49:18,320 --> 00:49:21,400
Speaker 1: you're simply practicing. It's literally changing our brains and the

890
00:49:21,480 --> 00:49:25,760
Speaker 1: same thing can happen in recovery from trauma or OCD,

891
00:49:26,080 --> 00:49:28,560
Speaker 1: you know, or maybe it's the same thing. The first

892
00:49:28,560 --> 00:49:31,560
Speaker 1: few months of when I finally found the correct kind

893
00:49:31,560 --> 00:49:33,759
Speaker 1: of therapy, because it took a long time to find

894
00:49:33,760 --> 00:49:36,680
Speaker 1: someone who specialized in what I was experiencing, those first

895
00:49:36,719 --> 00:49:41,240
Speaker 1: few months were so hard, and every time I was like, Okay,

896
00:49:41,280 --> 00:49:43,359
Speaker 1: all I'm feeling panic about this thing, or like I'm

897
00:49:43,400 --> 00:49:46,320
Speaker 1: stuck in this thought loop, in this obsession, this thought spiral,

898
00:49:46,880 --> 00:49:48,480
Speaker 1: I'm going to do the thing I'm supposed to do.

899
00:49:48,600 --> 00:49:50,960
Speaker 1: It doesn't feel like it's working. It doesn't feel like

900
00:49:51,000 --> 00:49:53,000
Speaker 1: it's working, but I'm gonna like just go with what

901
00:49:53,080 --> 00:49:55,840
Speaker 1: my therapist tells me and be intentional and make a

902
00:49:55,920 --> 00:49:58,760
Speaker 1: choice to like shift my focus even though it feels

903
00:49:58,800 --> 00:50:02,879
Speaker 1: terrifying and horrible. Over time, this just got easier. It's

904
00:50:03,000 --> 00:50:07,359
Speaker 1: just become easier. It's exactly exactly. And so that work

905
00:50:07,360 --> 00:50:09,800
Speaker 1: that I've done for my particular thing, which is OCD,

906
00:50:10,040 --> 00:50:12,239
Speaker 1: is work that we can also do if we have

907
00:50:12,320 --> 00:50:15,200
Speaker 1: particular triggers, and we can sort of practice, Okay, I know,

908
00:50:15,239 --> 00:50:18,560
Speaker 1: if I'm going to be triggered by this event, this person,

909
00:50:18,640 --> 00:50:24,000
Speaker 1: this memory, I can practice intentionally pausing shifting my focus

910
00:50:24,040 --> 00:50:27,080
Speaker 1: and then my brain like doesn't see that as that

911
00:50:27,160 --> 00:50:29,920
Speaker 1: important or scary anymore over time, Is that right?

912
00:50:30,280 --> 00:50:31,040
Speaker 3: Yep? That's right?

913
00:50:31,400 --> 00:50:34,600
Speaker 1: Cool, you got it? Yay.

914
00:50:34,880 --> 00:50:38,719
Speaker 3: And if you can get people there through the work

915
00:50:38,719 --> 00:50:40,480
Speaker 3: you do with them, you don't need a model a treatment.

916
00:50:40,640 --> 00:50:43,279
Speaker 1: So it's just like getting to a point where the

917
00:50:43,360 --> 00:50:46,080
Speaker 1: things that scare you or the memories that scare you

918
00:50:46,120 --> 00:50:47,760
Speaker 1: just don't feel like that big of a deal anymore

919
00:50:47,800 --> 00:50:49,720
Speaker 1: because you know what to do when it happens.

920
00:50:50,200 --> 00:50:54,760
Speaker 3: Yep. It's that having a strategy that works to preserve

921
00:50:55,160 --> 00:50:57,680
Speaker 3: and look, listen how reinforcing it is. What are you

922
00:50:57,800 --> 00:51:01,600
Speaker 3: really doing is you recognize trigger and you now have

923
00:51:01,640 --> 00:51:06,440
Speaker 3: strategies that allow you to feel safe and in control.

924
00:51:07,200 --> 00:51:10,120
Speaker 1: We feel a feeling of fear, and in order to

925
00:51:10,320 --> 00:51:12,399
Speaker 1: feel in control of that fear, we like either want

926
00:51:12,400 --> 00:51:15,320
Speaker 1: to go cower or we lashing at at other people.

927
00:51:15,840 --> 00:51:18,200
Speaker 1: Do we need to give up control the feeling of

928
00:51:18,200 --> 00:51:19,920
Speaker 1: control in order to heal or do we need to

929
00:51:20,320 --> 00:51:23,000
Speaker 1: actually develop a stronger sense of control? Yeah? Tell us

930
00:51:23,000 --> 00:51:24,360
Speaker 1: how control? Please a factor?

931
00:51:24,600 --> 00:51:28,320
Speaker 3: The thing is that you're not in control. What happens

932
00:51:28,400 --> 00:51:32,160
Speaker 3: when you try to use an aggressive means of gaining

933
00:51:32,200 --> 00:51:36,279
Speaker 3: control is that you offend people and you just get

934
00:51:36,360 --> 00:51:40,600
Speaker 3: further and further disregulated, So it's not really helping you.

935
00:51:41,000 --> 00:51:44,600
Speaker 3: It just continues. It becomes a perpetual if you want

936
00:51:44,640 --> 00:51:46,759
Speaker 3: to think of it as kind of a characteristic of

937
00:51:46,800 --> 00:51:49,120
Speaker 3: how you operate in the world because you've done it

938
00:51:49,200 --> 00:51:51,640
Speaker 3: so much, you've got all these patterns around it, but

939
00:51:52,280 --> 00:51:55,440
Speaker 3: it doesn't help you really gain control. And that's what's frustrating.

940
00:51:55,480 --> 00:51:57,840
Speaker 3: You're trying to get control, you're not feeling in control.

941
00:51:57,920 --> 00:52:00,319
Speaker 3: So what do you do is you amp up your

942
00:52:00,800 --> 00:52:01,760
Speaker 3: control mechanism.

943
00:52:02,120 --> 00:52:03,880
Speaker 1: And is that also true of when we're trying to

944
00:52:03,880 --> 00:52:06,080
Speaker 1: control ourselves.

945
00:52:05,680 --> 00:52:08,960
Speaker 3: Uh huh, you know, we can get totally dissociated at

946
00:52:09,840 --> 00:52:13,839
Speaker 3: that other side of that shut down, kind of that

947
00:52:13,880 --> 00:52:18,480
Speaker 3: feeling of depersonalization, the world isn't real, I'm not real

948
00:52:19,000 --> 00:52:22,600
Speaker 3: kind of thing. The controlling of self is the has

949
00:52:22,640 --> 00:52:29,000
Speaker 3: the greater lethality risk because people will engage in state

950
00:52:29,120 --> 00:52:34,320
Speaker 3: changing activities like drugs and alcohol or compulsive behaviors or

951
00:52:34,360 --> 00:52:37,960
Speaker 3: obsessive behaviors to try not to feel what they're feeling.

952
00:52:38,440 --> 00:52:42,960
Speaker 3: Right and both our attempts to control, but until someone

953
00:52:43,080 --> 00:52:47,799
Speaker 3: is regulated, they can't really control right, And so what

954
00:52:48,320 --> 00:52:51,200
Speaker 3: when you get them in a regulated state and they

955
00:52:51,320 --> 00:52:55,799
Speaker 3: feel like and know that they can manage themselves. You know,

956
00:52:55,920 --> 00:52:58,360
Speaker 3: it's really funny. A lot of the evidence based models

957
00:52:58,360 --> 00:53:01,399
Speaker 3: are have a lot of protocols, but even when I've

958
00:53:01,480 --> 00:53:04,160
Speaker 3: used them, once I get somebody regulated, you know, and

959
00:53:04,280 --> 00:53:07,520
Speaker 3: we move into the application of a model, they go

960
00:53:07,600 --> 00:53:11,520
Speaker 3: a lot faster than the model, and a lot of

961
00:53:11,520 --> 00:53:13,719
Speaker 3: times they're saying, like, I can already do that. You know,

962
00:53:13,760 --> 00:53:14,719
Speaker 3: why are we telling me this?

963
00:53:15,239 --> 00:53:15,479
Speaker 1: Right?

964
00:53:16,760 --> 00:53:21,080
Speaker 3: What Eric and I both found Eric Gentry, who's kind

965
00:53:21,080 --> 00:53:23,680
Speaker 3: of my research buddy on some of this stuff, what

966
00:53:23,800 --> 00:53:27,480
Speaker 3: we found is that well over half of our really

967
00:53:27,520 --> 00:53:31,839
Speaker 3: difficult trauma cases, once you get them regulated, they don't

968
00:53:31,840 --> 00:53:34,160
Speaker 3: feel like they need to do anything else. And even

969
00:53:34,320 --> 00:53:37,919
Speaker 3: Bessel Vanderkulk and his the twenty fourteen book Body keeps

970
00:53:37,920 --> 00:53:41,200
Speaker 3: this course is if they can function well every day,

971
00:53:41,239 --> 00:53:45,799
Speaker 3: they don't meet therapy. And so part of this is

972
00:53:46,040 --> 00:53:48,480
Speaker 3: just kind of a different mentality. You can understand that

973
00:53:48,840 --> 00:53:52,280
Speaker 3: the way I'm talking about this does not support the

974
00:53:52,320 --> 00:53:57,640
Speaker 3: infrastructures of the mental health industrial complex or the pharmaceutical

975
00:53:57,640 --> 00:53:58,719
Speaker 3: industrial complex.

976
00:53:58,960 --> 00:54:00,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was going to say, do you do you

977
00:54:00,360 --> 00:54:04,160
Speaker 2: suggest medication to help regulate people or do you think

978
00:54:04,200 --> 00:54:06,160
Speaker 2: that there's more natural ways to do it?

979
00:54:06,440 --> 00:54:11,759
Speaker 3: Yes, and no. There I am kind of a minimalist

980
00:54:11,840 --> 00:54:15,640
Speaker 3: when it comes to medication. Sometimes it's absolutely necessary as

981
00:54:15,680 --> 00:54:18,480
Speaker 3: a starting point, but it can't be your ending point,

982
00:54:18,719 --> 00:54:21,719
Speaker 3: right because then what you do is trade one dependence

983
00:54:21,760 --> 00:54:26,480
Speaker 3: for another. The other piece is I'd really rather explore

984
00:54:26,520 --> 00:54:30,759
Speaker 3: the more natural ways of doing it than the medication round,

985
00:54:31,120 --> 00:54:35,399
Speaker 3: because most of the natural, pathic kinds of approaches tend

986
00:54:35,400 --> 00:54:38,279
Speaker 3: to be have less side effects in the long run.

987
00:54:38,520 --> 00:54:41,040
Speaker 1: I had a tapering off period. I do not enjoy

988
00:54:41,080 --> 00:54:42,680
Speaker 1: thinking about when I was.

989
00:54:43,880 --> 00:54:47,239
Speaker 3: And a lot of times too. Drug companies, the researchers

990
00:54:47,239 --> 00:54:51,520
Speaker 3: in those companies are amazing folks, really dedicated to helping.

991
00:54:52,080 --> 00:54:57,520
Speaker 3: And then it runs into this marketing, finance driven system

992
00:54:57,560 --> 00:55:00,399
Speaker 3: that I think is kind of loathsome. But a lot

993
00:55:00,440 --> 00:55:02,759
Speaker 3: of these medications, as soon as they come out, they

994
00:55:02,760 --> 00:55:05,960
Speaker 3: start looking for other applications for them, And so you

995
00:55:06,080 --> 00:55:09,080
Speaker 3: have a medication that can be used here, here, here, here,

996
00:55:09,120 --> 00:55:11,839
Speaker 3: and here. You know, it wasn't ever designed for that,

997
00:55:11,920 --> 00:55:13,719
Speaker 3: and there's no studies that really support it.

998
00:55:13,920 --> 00:55:17,040
Speaker 1: My impression is that it's useful if it's just too

999
00:55:17,120 --> 00:55:19,760
Speaker 1: hard to get regulated. Their pain is just so extreme.

1000
00:55:19,960 --> 00:55:23,319
Speaker 1: Their trauma is so extreme. Er depressure, whatever regular stuff

1001
00:55:23,360 --> 00:55:25,080
Speaker 1: isn't working. So it's just to get you to a

1002
00:55:25,120 --> 00:55:28,280
Speaker 1: baseline so then you can then do the work right

1003
00:55:28,320 --> 00:55:31,400
Speaker 1: and then form habits. Exactly. It sounded like what you

1004
00:55:31,400 --> 00:55:34,200
Speaker 1: were saying to me. My takeaway was that, like all

1005
00:55:34,239 --> 00:55:37,719
Speaker 1: the controlling methods that we do, whether it's drugs or

1006
00:55:37,760 --> 00:55:41,440
Speaker 1: like pushing the thoughts away or avoidance, we kind of

1007
00:55:41,480 --> 00:55:44,880
Speaker 1: have to give up those control methods in order to

1008
00:55:45,520 --> 00:55:47,840
Speaker 1: actually get to a place where we can be in

1009
00:55:47,880 --> 00:55:49,000
Speaker 1: control of ourselves. Again.

1010
00:55:49,239 --> 00:55:52,840
Speaker 3: Right, I'm going to say it differently. Okay, what you

1011
00:55:52,920 --> 00:55:54,480
Speaker 3: need to do is work with some If you're going

1012
00:55:54,560 --> 00:55:58,120
Speaker 3: to do this in a therapeutic session sessions, what you

1013
00:55:58,200 --> 00:55:59,920
Speaker 3: need to do is work with somebody that can help

1014
00:55:59,920 --> 00:56:04,680
Speaker 3: you identify the strategies that you use that are successful

1015
00:56:04,680 --> 00:56:08,160
Speaker 3: and do them on purpose, rather than what a lot

1016
00:56:08,200 --> 00:56:10,320
Speaker 3: of therapists want to do is teach you new skills.

1017
00:56:10,320 --> 00:56:13,520
Speaker 3: But you already had a lot of skills. You've survived.

1018
00:56:14,560 --> 00:56:17,839
Speaker 3: Because we tend to overlearn the negative, all of our

1019
00:56:17,960 --> 00:56:22,160
Speaker 3: narratives don't focus on what we did. An easy example,

1020
00:56:22,200 --> 00:56:26,560
Speaker 3: you have somebody that grew up in an incestuous family.

1021
00:56:27,200 --> 00:56:30,160
Speaker 3: They feel totally powerless. One of the attributes is do

1022
00:56:30,200 --> 00:56:33,919
Speaker 3: you feel helplessness a lot with that. But if you're

1023
00:56:34,080 --> 00:56:36,160
Speaker 3: going to help these folks, you have to help them

1024
00:56:36,560 --> 00:56:41,000
Speaker 3: kind of uncover their own competency rather than trying to

1025
00:56:41,040 --> 00:56:45,320
Speaker 3: teach them something that feels outside. And when you teach

1026
00:56:45,360 --> 00:56:47,880
Speaker 3: somebody something, you put a demand load on them that

1027
00:56:47,920 --> 00:56:51,120
Speaker 3: may stress them more than they are already stressed. Think

1028
00:56:51,120 --> 00:56:53,200
Speaker 3: of it a to do list. How often have you

1029
00:56:53,200 --> 00:56:55,400
Speaker 3: looked at a to do list and felt overwhelmed? A

1030
00:56:55,400 --> 00:56:57,839
Speaker 3: lot of times we give we give people that are

1031
00:56:57,880 --> 00:57:01,160
Speaker 3: overwhelmed to do lists. What you want to focus on

1032
00:57:01,200 --> 00:57:05,480
Speaker 3: instead is what is their competency. I worked with a

1033
00:57:05,520 --> 00:57:09,399
Speaker 3: family that brought their twenty year old in for he'd

1034
00:57:09,440 --> 00:57:13,239
Speaker 3: been in treatment for heroin now three times, and they

1035
00:57:13,239 --> 00:57:17,040
Speaker 3: were sure that he was going to, you know, kill himself.

1036
00:57:17,560 --> 00:57:21,479
Speaker 3: And so I'm listening to them talk, and I asked him,

1037
00:57:21,920 --> 00:57:25,760
Speaker 3: where's the place that you never use? And they the

1038
00:57:25,760 --> 00:57:28,120
Speaker 3: rest of his family went nuts, So he'll use anywhere,

1039
00:57:28,120 --> 00:57:32,080
Speaker 3: blah blah blah. And the reality is every attict I

1040
00:57:32,120 --> 00:57:35,760
Speaker 3: know of in thirty years has someplace they don't use.

1041
00:57:37,560 --> 00:57:39,840
Speaker 3: And so I asked what's your place you don't use?

1042
00:57:40,240 --> 00:57:44,280
Speaker 3: And he told me and they didn't agree, but he said, no,

1043
00:57:44,360 --> 00:57:46,480
Speaker 3: I don't ever use there. And I said, well, do

1044
00:57:46,520 --> 00:57:49,640
Speaker 3: you avoid that space? No? I go at least a

1045
00:57:49,640 --> 00:57:52,120
Speaker 3: couple of times a month for a couple of days.

1046
00:57:52,800 --> 00:57:56,520
Speaker 3: And it was his grandmother's house, and so you never

1047
00:57:56,640 --> 00:57:59,880
Speaker 3: use there. Do you cut the visits short? No? I go,

1048
00:58:00,080 --> 00:58:02,280
Speaker 3: and I don't use for a couple of days. So

1049
00:58:03,280 --> 00:58:06,640
Speaker 3: what is one thing that you do to allow yourself

1050
00:58:06,720 --> 00:58:09,919
Speaker 3: not to use in that situation? And what we did

1051
00:58:10,000 --> 00:58:14,040
Speaker 3: is deconstruct the strategies that he already possesses that work

1052
00:58:14,120 --> 00:58:18,200
Speaker 3: for him in controlling his own behavior. Which once it

1053
00:58:18,280 --> 00:58:20,800
Speaker 3: was clear what he does, could we could you apply

1054
00:58:20,840 --> 00:58:23,320
Speaker 3: this to other things? What might that look like?

1055
00:58:23,680 --> 00:58:24,000
Speaker 1: Right?

1056
00:58:24,720 --> 00:58:29,560
Speaker 3: And and he took control of that And I didn't

1057
00:58:29,600 --> 00:58:31,680
Speaker 3: have to teach him anything. All I had to do

1058
00:58:31,760 --> 00:58:34,040
Speaker 3: is help him discover what he was already competent. At

1059
00:58:34,080 --> 00:58:38,840
Speaker 3: anybody that the more horrible someone's trauma history is, the

1060
00:58:38,840 --> 00:58:42,320
Speaker 3: more competency they possess. It's just that no one's ever

1061
00:58:42,480 --> 00:58:44,080
Speaker 3: focused on it with Wow.

1062
00:58:44,520 --> 00:58:48,840
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, we focus so much. And this is why

1063
00:58:48,840 --> 00:58:50,680
Speaker 1: we wanted to talk to you and the other people

1064
00:58:50,680 --> 00:58:52,680
Speaker 1: were talking to this month. We focus so much on

1065
00:58:52,880 --> 00:58:56,800
Speaker 1: how trauma like debilitates us and ruins our lives, and

1066
00:58:56,840 --> 00:58:58,720
Speaker 1: what we want to talk about is like, what is

1067
00:58:58,720 --> 00:59:01,760
Speaker 1: the other side of that picture? If we have survived that, Like,

1068
00:59:01,840 --> 00:59:03,600
Speaker 1: how can we get through it? How can we find

1069
00:59:03,640 --> 00:59:06,880
Speaker 1: the things within our like the usefulness of those experiences?

1070
00:59:06,920 --> 00:59:09,120
Speaker 1: How can we grow from that? How can we heal?

1071
00:59:09,320 --> 00:59:11,480
Speaker 1: You know? And I love that approach because it's not

1072
00:59:11,640 --> 00:59:13,280
Speaker 1: focused on like, what's wrong with me? What's wrong with me?

1073
00:59:13,320 --> 00:59:14,520
Speaker 1: That's wrong with me? It's like, no, what did I

1074
00:59:14,560 --> 00:59:16,760
Speaker 1: do right? If I was I was in that situation

1075
00:59:16,840 --> 00:59:18,960
Speaker 1: for years? You know, you survive so much. If you

1076
00:59:19,000 --> 00:59:20,680
Speaker 1: have if you've had an abuse of childhood, if you've

1077
00:59:20,680 --> 00:59:22,440
Speaker 1: grown up in a cult or whatever, it may be like,

1078
00:59:23,000 --> 00:59:25,920
Speaker 1: you survived so much, and there's so much that you

1079
00:59:25,960 --> 00:59:28,040
Speaker 1: can draw from from those experiences.

1080
00:59:28,480 --> 00:59:30,640
Speaker 3: It's just a matter of having somebody that can that

1081
00:59:30,720 --> 00:59:33,480
Speaker 3: can help you make some concrete and value them.

1082
00:59:33,560 --> 00:59:35,720
Speaker 1: The thing is most people don't have access to therapist

1083
00:59:36,200 --> 00:59:39,000
Speaker 1: who possess these perspectives Throughoubert, this is the problem.

1084
00:59:39,160 --> 00:59:40,960
Speaker 3: Well, this is why we spend an awful lot of

1085
00:59:41,000 --> 00:59:44,600
Speaker 3: time training people. It is essential, you know, and it's

1086
00:59:44,640 --> 00:59:48,160
Speaker 3: really funny. What I find is that this perspective is

1087
00:59:48,240 --> 00:59:51,080
Speaker 3: much more accepted outside of the United States than in

1088
00:59:51,080 --> 00:59:55,400
Speaker 3: the United States. There's a growing movement towards this in

1089
00:59:55,440 --> 01:00:00,120
Speaker 3: Pakistan and India and Singapore, Peru. We're even working with

1090
01:00:00,680 --> 01:00:05,240
Speaker 3: a group that are attached to the University of Tehran

1091
01:00:05,360 --> 01:00:09,240
Speaker 3: in Iran, supporting and consulting them on the building of

1092
01:00:09,280 --> 01:00:13,880
Speaker 3: this kind of a practice. In Iran, we have Saudi

1093
01:00:13,920 --> 01:00:18,120
Speaker 3: affiliates and the government ministers. I've even had conversations with

1094
01:00:18,160 --> 01:00:22,400
Speaker 3: them around some of this. So, you know, it's interesting

1095
01:00:22,760 --> 01:00:26,320
Speaker 3: that when you have a society that is so driven

1096
01:00:27,000 --> 01:00:32,000
Speaker 3: as ours is by marketing and consumerism, they don't really

1097
01:00:32,160 --> 01:00:36,360
Speaker 3: want a well regulated population. And I understand that the

1098
01:00:36,440 --> 01:00:39,920
Speaker 3: politics wouldn't work if you had a well regulated population.

1099
01:00:40,040 --> 01:00:42,360
Speaker 3: Nobody that's been in office for the last thirty years

1100
01:00:42,360 --> 01:00:44,360
Speaker 3: would actually have made it that. I won't say any

1101
01:00:44,400 --> 01:00:48,320
Speaker 3: more about that, but you know, most companies that are

1102
01:00:48,360 --> 01:00:51,440
Speaker 3: selling products don't want you to be a well regulated population.

1103
01:00:52,120 --> 01:00:55,280
Speaker 3: We want to keep people aroused and not have the

1104
01:00:55,320 --> 01:00:58,720
Speaker 3: consequences of it. And that's crazy.

1105
01:00:59,280 --> 01:01:03,000
Speaker 1: There's like some social currency in this moment in time

1106
01:01:03,840 --> 01:01:07,160
Speaker 1: in having a traumatic experience in your past or having

1107
01:01:07,480 --> 01:01:10,240
Speaker 1: a diagnosis or whatever, making it like your identity.

1108
01:01:10,840 --> 01:01:15,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, I call it the Woody Allen effect. Why Why Well,

1109
01:01:15,200 --> 01:01:17,680
Speaker 3: because Woody Allen was always talking about his neurotic be

1110
01:01:17,920 --> 01:01:18,880
Speaker 3: you know, you.

1111
01:01:18,840 --> 01:01:21,240
Speaker 1: Know it's his brand, yeah brand.

1112
01:01:21,360 --> 01:01:24,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I think that there is. If you don't

1113
01:01:24,080 --> 01:01:27,280
Speaker 3: have a trauma, then you know you don't have anything

1114
01:01:27,400 --> 01:01:28,280
Speaker 3: to talk about.

1115
01:01:28,560 --> 01:01:31,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, you're a boring dinner party guest. Just get out.

1116
01:01:31,800 --> 01:01:37,440
Speaker 3: And if you don't emote in strong, vivid emotions, then

1117
01:01:37,680 --> 01:01:39,680
Speaker 3: there must be something wrong with you. If you don't

1118
01:01:39,680 --> 01:01:42,240
Speaker 3: see this injustice and get as upset about it as

1119
01:01:43,320 --> 01:01:46,320
Speaker 3: that person is, then you know you are not being supportive.

1120
01:01:46,600 --> 01:01:50,360
Speaker 3: We build a lot of this messaging into our society, right,

1121
01:01:51,000 --> 01:01:52,920
Speaker 3: don't you dare? Try to be regulated?

1122
01:01:53,040 --> 01:01:57,880
Speaker 1: Well, when we see an extreme emotion or feeling something

1123
01:01:57,960 --> 01:02:00,160
Speaker 1: sort of extreme or using a really loud voice or

1124
01:02:00,160 --> 01:02:02,680
Speaker 1: whatever it is, that is just like more exciting to

1125
01:02:02,760 --> 01:02:05,200
Speaker 1: our brains, So like it makes sense on some level.

1126
01:02:05,520 --> 01:02:09,520
Speaker 1: It's just more interesting than someone who's like, yeah, this

1127
01:02:09,520 --> 01:02:11,960
Speaker 1: this is causing a lot of harm and I don't

1128
01:02:12,000 --> 01:02:14,320
Speaker 1: like it. You know, like passion, We're drawn to passion,

1129
01:02:14,360 --> 01:02:15,240
Speaker 1: so it makes.

1130
01:02:15,000 --> 01:02:17,880
Speaker 3: Sense, novelty, we're actually drawn to novelty.

1131
01:02:18,040 --> 01:02:18,360
Speaker 2: Hmm.

1132
01:02:19,000 --> 01:02:22,640
Speaker 1: Interesting, But I think that we would grow so much

1133
01:02:22,720 --> 01:02:26,120
Speaker 1: as the society, even if we did still elevate people

1134
01:02:26,160 --> 01:02:28,440
Speaker 1: who'd experienced a lot of pain or something. We shifted

1135
01:02:28,440 --> 01:02:30,680
Speaker 1: our focus to how did you heal from that? How

1136
01:02:30,680 --> 01:02:33,240
Speaker 1: did you grow from that? How did you come to

1137
01:02:33,560 --> 01:02:37,480
Speaker 1: be well regulated after something that threw you off balance? Like,

1138
01:02:37,520 --> 01:02:39,200
Speaker 1: I think that is the thing that we should be

1139
01:02:39,280 --> 01:02:41,320
Speaker 1: trying to value and strive for culturally.

1140
01:02:41,400 --> 01:02:43,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, you want to have fun at a dinner party

1141
01:02:43,960 --> 01:02:48,680
Speaker 3: and somebody's telling about their horrible event. You start asking

1142
01:02:48,760 --> 01:02:51,000
Speaker 3: them around, well, how did you get through that? Yeah,

1143
01:02:51,040 --> 01:02:53,400
Speaker 3: you know, what's the first thing you did to take action?

1144
01:02:53,640 --> 01:02:55,600
Speaker 3: How did you learn that that would work for you?

1145
01:02:55,760 --> 01:02:57,760
Speaker 3: All of a sudden, they're angry at you because what

1146
01:02:57,840 --> 01:03:01,120
Speaker 3: they want is everybody else is going to be angry,

1147
01:03:01,600 --> 01:03:04,640
Speaker 3: because what they want is an opportunity to feel this

1148
01:03:04,840 --> 01:03:09,600
Speaker 3: vivid emotion, because, by goodness, we believe in intense emotion

1149
01:03:09,760 --> 01:03:12,040
Speaker 3: in the society, and we need to do things to

1150
01:03:12,880 --> 01:03:15,760
Speaker 3: ramp that up, not calm it down. And you know,

1151
01:03:15,840 --> 01:03:19,080
Speaker 3: it's nuts. It's horrible for us as a human being

1152
01:03:19,160 --> 01:03:20,960
Speaker 3: to be charged up all the time.

1153
01:03:21,400 --> 01:03:23,880
Speaker 2: So do you think that the that the highest state

1154
01:03:24,000 --> 01:03:28,000
Speaker 2: that we can achieve is just not being reactive, choosing

1155
01:03:28,040 --> 01:03:32,040
Speaker 2: intentionally and living a life that is on purpose.

1156
01:03:32,480 --> 01:03:36,400
Speaker 3: Of course, yeah, living a life that's intentional and I'm

1157
01:03:36,400 --> 01:03:38,800
Speaker 3: not going to say needs a purpose, but intentional and

1158
01:03:38,840 --> 01:03:42,080
Speaker 3: deliberate is you know, I think that's the ultimate maturity.

1159
01:03:42,440 --> 01:03:45,480
Speaker 1: It's building a skill of responding instead of reacting.

1160
01:03:45,640 --> 01:03:49,120
Speaker 3: Right, It's really funny to me we give all this

1161
01:03:49,200 --> 01:03:53,040
Speaker 3: attention to artists that are the van goes of the world,

1162
01:03:53,880 --> 01:03:56,840
Speaker 3: the ones that are a little nutty and extreme. Yeah,

1163
01:03:56,880 --> 01:03:59,360
Speaker 3: but most most of the artists that I know are

1164
01:03:59,640 --> 01:04:04,760
Speaker 3: very focused, very intentional about what they're doing. Same with musicians.

1165
01:04:05,360 --> 01:04:10,000
Speaker 3: They are not wild eyed, unregulated folks, or at least

1166
01:04:10,000 --> 01:04:12,600
Speaker 3: if they are, they don't they're not very successful on

1167
01:04:12,640 --> 01:04:16,120
Speaker 3: a continuing basis. The ones that are successful are the

1168
01:04:16,160 --> 01:04:18,520
Speaker 3: ones that are thoughtful and intentional and deliberate about what

1169
01:04:18,560 --> 01:04:22,280
Speaker 3: they do. And you know, that's it's crazy that we

1170
01:04:22,320 --> 01:04:23,480
Speaker 3: don't promote that more.

1171
01:04:23,680 --> 01:04:23,919
Speaker 4: Well.

1172
01:04:24,040 --> 01:04:27,560
Speaker 1: I would actually argue that in the music industry, I've

1173
01:04:27,600 --> 01:04:29,400
Speaker 1: seen it over and over and over again that if

1174
01:04:29,400 --> 01:04:32,400
Speaker 1: an artist is behaving in a way that's like kind

1175
01:04:32,440 --> 01:04:38,240
Speaker 1: of enticson else. Yeah, everyone's like they're a star. I'm like, no,

1176
01:04:38,400 --> 01:04:41,360
Speaker 1: they just like showed up two hours late and talked

1177
01:04:41,360 --> 01:04:44,920
Speaker 1: about how great they were for twenty minutes straight and

1178
01:04:44,960 --> 01:04:48,560
Speaker 1: then like we're complete asshole to everyone. Like that's not

1179
01:04:49,160 --> 01:04:51,000
Speaker 1: that doesn't mean they're a star. It just means that

1180
01:04:51,040 --> 01:04:56,280
Speaker 1: they're like novel basically same and same with like method actors,

1181
01:04:56,360 --> 01:05:00,680
Speaker 1: and you know they're geniuses. I'm like, no, they're just

1182
01:05:00,840 --> 01:05:02,080
Speaker 1: like Louder that's it.

1183
01:05:02,840 --> 01:05:08,320
Speaker 3: The other thing is that because of we're using emotional appeals,

1184
01:05:09,000 --> 01:05:13,320
Speaker 3: people don't recognize the difference between the public persona and

1185
01:05:13,400 --> 01:05:17,280
Speaker 3: the person at all. Right, No, no, absolutely not. I'm

1186
01:05:17,280 --> 01:05:20,320
Speaker 3: going to use Alice Cooper as an example. Most people

1187
01:05:20,480 --> 01:05:24,720
Speaker 3: Alice Cooper's career and he's like everything's wow, this guy's deranged.

1188
01:05:24,800 --> 01:05:27,880
Speaker 3: You know, he's wild and crazy. But he's a very

1189
01:05:27,920 --> 01:05:32,480
Speaker 3: conservative person. Yeah, you know, he's very involved in the

1190
01:05:32,880 --> 01:05:35,720
Speaker 3: in Christian faith, and he's you know, he's a large

1191
01:05:35,720 --> 01:05:39,440
Speaker 3: contributor to you know, Christian colleges, and he loves golf.

1192
01:05:40,200 --> 01:05:43,760
Speaker 3: He loves golf, and he's kind of into he's kind

1193
01:05:43,800 --> 01:05:44,680
Speaker 3: of into healthy life.

1194
01:05:45,040 --> 01:05:47,320
Speaker 1: Spreading this room right now, Alice Cooper loves golf.

1195
01:05:50,840 --> 01:05:53,600
Speaker 3: I think it's hysterical because I stand in front of

1196
01:05:53,600 --> 01:05:58,400
Speaker 3: groups and talk for hours and and people mistake my

1197
01:05:58,600 --> 01:06:02,840
Speaker 3: presentation as that's who I am. They don't realize that

1198
01:06:02,880 --> 01:06:07,560
Speaker 3: I am really a horrible introvert, and so they come up.

1199
01:06:07,560 --> 01:06:09,640
Speaker 3: They're all excited for having been there. They want to

1200
01:06:09,640 --> 01:06:12,040
Speaker 3: invite me to dinner. And the last thing I want

1201
01:06:12,040 --> 01:06:15,840
Speaker 3: to do, ever, is to sit in dinner with total strangers.

1202
01:06:16,760 --> 01:06:19,600
Speaker 1: Oh my god, I could not. Really, We're talking all day,

1203
01:06:19,760 --> 01:06:22,920
Speaker 1: I could not relate more. People make so many assumptions

1204
01:06:22,920 --> 01:06:27,200
Speaker 1: about my personality based on my Internet persona, and I'm

1205
01:06:27,280 --> 01:06:29,880
Speaker 1: consistently told, Wow, You're not how I expected at all.

1206
01:06:29,920 --> 01:06:33,760
Speaker 1: You're so different from how you come off interesting. I'm

1207
01:06:33,800 --> 01:06:39,640
Speaker 1: just cooler, you guys. Final question. If someone in our

1208
01:06:39,720 --> 01:06:43,440
Speaker 1: lives is behaving in a way that betrays that they're disregulated,

1209
01:06:43,600 --> 01:06:46,000
Speaker 1: you know, through anger or being shut down or whatever,

1210
01:06:46,440 --> 01:06:50,280
Speaker 1: what is a way that we can respond to sort

1211
01:06:50,320 --> 01:06:54,000
Speaker 1: of help bring them back or reconnect with them.

1212
01:06:54,640 --> 01:06:57,880
Speaker 3: First of all, the moment you recognize they're disregulated, check

1213
01:06:57,920 --> 01:07:01,320
Speaker 3: yourself if you're regulating pretty well well. The thing that

1214
01:07:01,360 --> 01:07:04,440
Speaker 3: will calm them down the most is connecting with them relationally.

1215
01:07:04,800 --> 01:07:08,720
Speaker 3: I can explain what happens when you connect with somebody relationally,

1216
01:07:08,840 --> 01:07:12,760
Speaker 3: they get a dose of oxytocin, which helps calm their

1217
01:07:12,800 --> 01:07:14,800
Speaker 3: system down. I'll give you a kind of a picture

1218
01:07:14,800 --> 01:07:18,320
Speaker 3: of the difference. A kid comes into a class. He's

1219
01:07:18,320 --> 01:07:20,520
Speaker 3: had a heck of a weekend. It's Monday morning, he's

1220
01:07:20,640 --> 01:07:25,120
Speaker 3: fully aroused, and you're going to see so he's having

1221
01:07:25,120 --> 01:07:29,880
Speaker 3: trouble sitting still. It's math class. He's fidgeting, he's looking

1222
01:07:29,920 --> 01:07:32,680
Speaker 3: all over the place, he can't focus, which is exactly

1223
01:07:32,720 --> 01:07:34,800
Speaker 3: what should be happening if his body's in a state

1224
01:07:34,840 --> 01:07:39,360
Speaker 3: of arousal. So if the teacher can regulate themselves and

1225
01:07:39,880 --> 01:07:43,400
Speaker 3: make sure they're regulated, they could go over, kneel down,

1226
01:07:43,440 --> 01:07:45,080
Speaker 3: look this kid in the face, put in a hand

1227
01:07:45,160 --> 01:07:47,880
Speaker 3: on their shoulder, and say, you seem like you're having

1228
01:07:47,880 --> 01:07:50,640
Speaker 3: a real tough day. Is there something going on that

1229
01:07:50,680 --> 01:07:53,280
Speaker 3: I can really help with? What would help you be

1230
01:07:53,320 --> 01:07:57,760
Speaker 3: able to be here today? And the kid will calm down. Now,

1231
01:07:57,760 --> 01:08:01,280
Speaker 3: they still may not calm down enough, but at least

1232
01:08:01,440 --> 01:08:04,120
Speaker 3: it won't grow into a power struggle. But what I

1233
01:08:04,160 --> 01:08:08,160
Speaker 3: see teachers do instead is they see that kid's behavior

1234
01:08:08,280 --> 01:08:12,000
Speaker 3: as a confrontation of their power, and so what they

1235
01:08:12,040 --> 01:08:18,080
Speaker 3: do is become punitive, aggressive shaming, and then they're surprised

1236
01:08:18,080 --> 01:08:21,760
Speaker 3: that the kid blows up. So part of this is

1237
01:08:21,960 --> 01:08:25,720
Speaker 3: self awareness of yourself. If you see somebody else disregulated,

1238
01:08:26,200 --> 01:08:30,000
Speaker 3: the question is how can I connect with them? I

1239
01:08:30,040 --> 01:08:32,080
Speaker 3: watched somebody do a really good job of this in

1240
01:08:32,120 --> 01:08:36,120
Speaker 3: a large supermarket, a mother with five or six children

1241
01:08:36,240 --> 01:08:40,120
Speaker 3: that apparently were ill and screaming their heads off basically

1242
01:08:40,200 --> 01:08:42,960
Speaker 3: or fussing, and everybody was kind of looking at the

1243
01:08:43,040 --> 01:08:45,639
Speaker 3: mom with that shame look, like how could you do?

1244
01:08:45,760 --> 01:08:49,479
Speaker 3: How could you be here with those kids? And then

1245
01:08:49,640 --> 01:08:55,120
Speaker 3: one person that walked from another line down and put

1246
01:08:55,160 --> 01:08:57,759
Speaker 3: a hand on this woman's shoulder and said, it seems

1247
01:08:57,800 --> 01:09:00,600
Speaker 3: like you're having quite a day. What can I do

1248
01:09:00,720 --> 01:09:04,200
Speaker 3: to help you? And you can just see this woman's

1249
01:09:04,200 --> 01:09:08,040
Speaker 3: whole demeanor disc go right. If you want to think

1250
01:09:08,080 --> 01:09:14,360
Speaker 3: of it in the simplest form possible. Trauma care is

1251
01:09:14,400 --> 01:09:19,760
Speaker 3: about the intentional application of compassion wherever you're at, when

1252
01:09:19,760 --> 01:09:22,760
Speaker 3: you see people that are disregulated. If you can think,

1253
01:09:22,800 --> 01:09:26,000
Speaker 3: how can I express compassion? It's not the same, that's

1254
01:09:26,040 --> 01:09:29,800
Speaker 3: not sympathy. Compassion has an action part to it. What

1255
01:09:29,920 --> 01:09:33,000
Speaker 3: can I do to help this person calm down?

1256
01:09:34,040 --> 01:09:34,880
Speaker 4: I love that.

1257
01:09:34,880 --> 01:09:36,840
Speaker 1: That makes me, first of all, that's just a good

1258
01:09:36,880 --> 01:09:40,320
Speaker 1: skill for any relationship. And you know, there's this book

1259
01:09:40,400 --> 01:09:43,920
Speaker 1: Non Violent Communication, which talks about how like if someone

1260
01:09:44,200 --> 01:09:47,120
Speaker 1: is saying something that's upsetting to you, instead of reacting

1261
01:09:47,160 --> 01:09:49,799
Speaker 1: emotionally to it, and then it becomes a power struggle.

1262
01:09:49,840 --> 01:09:52,559
Speaker 1: Like you said, you try to reflect their feelings back

1263
01:09:52,600 --> 01:09:55,920
Speaker 1: to them and say, it seems like you're feeling this

1264
01:09:55,920 --> 01:09:59,040
Speaker 1: this way, it seems like you're upset about this, and

1265
01:09:59,080 --> 01:10:03,400
Speaker 1: basically just try to empathize and connect and that generally

1266
01:10:03,479 --> 01:10:06,120
Speaker 1: will neutralize people as opposed to you did this, you

1267
01:10:06,160 --> 01:10:08,360
Speaker 1: did this, You did this, you did this. It also

1268
01:10:08,400 --> 01:10:12,880
Speaker 1: makes me think of this study. It was on placebos,

1269
01:10:13,640 --> 01:10:17,720
Speaker 1: and it was on the difference in the quality of placebo.

1270
01:10:17,960 --> 01:10:20,599
Speaker 1: Basically the conclusion of the study, I won't go into

1271
01:10:20,600 --> 01:10:23,800
Speaker 1: the whole thing, but was that so patients who experienced

1272
01:10:24,200 --> 01:10:27,960
Speaker 1: alleviated symptoms from a placebo. Everyone got the placebo, but

1273
01:10:28,040 --> 01:10:31,920
Speaker 1: the patients who got treatment placebo treatment from a a

1274
01:10:31,960 --> 01:10:37,439
Speaker 1: doctor or practitioner that treated them with care, kindness, touched

1275
01:10:37,479 --> 01:10:39,920
Speaker 1: their shoulder, asked in an appropriate way, ask them how

1276
01:10:39,920 --> 01:10:44,680
Speaker 1: they're feeling. Those patients saw way more relief than the

1277
01:10:44,720 --> 01:10:47,880
Speaker 1: patients who got the exact same placebo care, but it

1278
01:10:47,920 --> 01:10:50,479
Speaker 1: was just like, you know, just like you, you're kind

1279
01:10:50,520 --> 01:10:53,160
Speaker 1: of shitty doctor bedside manner or whatever.

1280
01:10:53,880 --> 01:10:55,679
Speaker 3: Right, relationships heal.

1281
01:10:55,720 --> 01:10:59,960
Speaker 2: Which is so frustrating because trauma keeps you from relationships.

1282
01:11:00,160 --> 01:11:04,320
Speaker 2: So it's it's a cycle that you're starting to break,

1283
01:11:04,360 --> 01:11:05,799
Speaker 2: which is awesome.

1284
01:11:06,000 --> 01:11:08,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, So it's so important to find someone who can

1285
01:11:08,600 --> 01:11:11,800
Speaker 1: who you do feel safe with and like be that

1286
01:11:11,840 --> 01:11:13,800
Speaker 1: a therapist or anyone in your.

1287
01:11:13,720 --> 01:11:18,680
Speaker 3: Life, right, someone that can lovingly point out when and

1288
01:11:18,760 --> 01:11:20,960
Speaker 3: you know it's coming from a love place rather than

1289
01:11:21,479 --> 01:11:25,840
Speaker 3: you know they're they're they're upset. It's going to be

1290
01:11:25,840 --> 01:11:26,559
Speaker 3: really powerful.

1291
01:11:27,000 --> 01:11:30,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, I want to practice that in all of my relationships,

1292
01:11:30,320 --> 01:11:36,280
Speaker 1: to staying regulated to help everyone else be regulated. Yes, amen, Well.

1293
01:11:36,479 --> 01:11:39,559
Speaker 3: You know that's not it's really shouldn't be news to us.

1294
01:11:40,000 --> 01:11:42,760
Speaker 3: You know, if you look at I don't know if

1295
01:11:42,760 --> 01:11:46,519
Speaker 3: you if you're familiar with the work of Gobormate. One

1296
01:11:46,520 --> 01:11:49,400
Speaker 3: of the things he did, what I thought was really hysterical.

1297
01:11:50,040 --> 01:11:53,080
Speaker 3: People were saying, well, what what is the best environment

1298
01:11:53,320 --> 01:11:58,640
Speaker 3: for for good relationships? And he said hunter gatherer societies

1299
01:11:59,280 --> 01:12:02,360
Speaker 3: and people are looking at what because they were thinking,

1300
01:12:02,400 --> 01:12:05,599
Speaker 3: you know, in modern society, and he says, no society

1301
01:12:05,680 --> 01:12:10,320
Speaker 3: is where every child has interaction with a lot of

1302
01:12:10,360 --> 01:12:14,240
Speaker 3: adults that all care. If we really want to make

1303
01:12:14,280 --> 01:12:18,160
Speaker 3: an impact, we've lost that in our society. We've lost

1304
01:12:18,280 --> 01:12:24,000
Speaker 3: that communal support. Most people don't even live around their

1305
01:12:24,720 --> 01:12:29,840
Speaker 3: closest blood relatives, and so where do where How can

1306
01:12:29,880 --> 01:12:33,080
Speaker 3: you be supported when when you don't have a network

1307
01:12:33,160 --> 01:12:37,240
Speaker 3: of people that care about you, or care about your kids,

1308
01:12:37,640 --> 01:12:40,439
Speaker 3: or how can you be calm and regulated if you

1309
01:12:40,439 --> 01:12:44,360
Speaker 3: don't have that kind of structure. And he does a

1310
01:12:44,439 --> 01:12:46,840
Speaker 3: much better job of it than I do. He's got

1311
01:12:46,840 --> 01:12:50,760
Speaker 3: it practically half a book dedicated to it. So, but

1312
01:12:51,400 --> 01:12:54,000
Speaker 3: it's true. One of the things we focus on a

1313
01:12:54,000 --> 01:12:55,800
Speaker 3: lot of times when we're working with people that have

1314
01:12:56,280 --> 01:13:02,240
Speaker 3: complex trauma is identifying people that are safe or safer

1315
01:13:03,080 --> 01:13:04,439
Speaker 3: and how to connect with them.

1316
01:13:04,680 --> 01:13:07,639
Speaker 1: That yearning for safety can be one of the things

1317
01:13:07,640 --> 01:13:12,040
Speaker 1: that actually brings people into cults unfortunately, because we crave

1318
01:13:12,120 --> 01:13:18,559
Speaker 1: that we need that community. Yeah, okay, because you're dealing

1319
01:13:18,600 --> 01:13:23,759
Speaker 1: with a dysregulated person looking is in survival mode. Yeah yeah, Well,

1320
01:13:23,920 --> 01:13:26,160
Speaker 1: this has been wonderful. Thank you so much. Is there

1321
01:13:26,160 --> 01:13:27,599
Speaker 1: anything else you'd like to add?

1322
01:13:27,840 --> 01:13:30,639
Speaker 3: Not really, I can talk about this stuff all the time,

1323
01:13:30,720 --> 01:13:33,599
Speaker 3: so I figure a few says time, I probably should

1324
01:13:33,640 --> 01:13:34,479
Speaker 3: gracefully bow out.

1325
01:13:37,880 --> 01:13:41,000
Speaker 1: So the Arizona Trauma Institute, you do trainings for therapists.

1326
01:13:41,680 --> 01:13:43,720
Speaker 1: You know, if any if someone's interested in learning more

1327
01:13:43,760 --> 01:13:45,120
Speaker 1: about your work, where should they go?

1328
01:13:45,439 --> 01:13:47,200
Speaker 3: They can go to our website or do a search

1329
01:13:47,360 --> 01:13:51,760
Speaker 3: for me, they'll pull up. We offer nearly sixty courses

1330
01:13:52,040 --> 01:13:55,120
Speaker 3: that we have online. We do a lot of live trainings.

1331
01:13:55,720 --> 01:13:59,960
Speaker 3: We also work with companies all over the world too

1332
01:14:00,120 --> 01:14:04,800
Speaker 3: create compassionate environments in their workplace. We work in lots

1333
01:14:04,840 --> 01:14:10,160
Speaker 3: of different venues, government advocacy laws, we're trying to change laws.

1334
01:14:10,520 --> 01:14:11,799
Speaker 1: Well, you're doing great work.

1335
01:14:12,320 --> 01:14:13,880
Speaker 3: Thank you, Thanks for inviting me.

1336
01:14:14,160 --> 01:14:15,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, a great day.

1337
01:14:15,560 --> 01:14:16,559
Speaker 3: Thank you. Bye.

1338
01:14:16,680 --> 01:14:18,679
Speaker 2: All Right, Lila, this is going to be a little

1339
01:14:18,680 --> 01:14:20,759
Speaker 2: switcherrout today. Amazing episode.

1340
01:14:20,960 --> 01:14:24,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's incredible. I'm loving this Trauma month so far.

1341
01:14:24,240 --> 01:14:27,400
Speaker 1: Y'all rethinking trauma, rethinking trauma. Okay, So we're going to

1342
01:14:27,439 --> 01:14:29,639
Speaker 1: do something a little bit different this time. Usually you

1343
01:14:29,680 --> 01:14:31,479
Speaker 1: asked me if I would join the cult that we're

1344
01:14:31,479 --> 01:14:34,600
Speaker 1: talking about today, I'm gonna ask you how do you

1345
01:14:34,640 --> 01:14:37,560
Speaker 1: get regulated? Oh good question, Megan.

1346
01:14:37,400 --> 01:14:38,919
Speaker 4: Thank you. I thought of it myself.

1347
01:14:41,120 --> 01:14:46,080
Speaker 1: Well, it really changes every time, is the annoying answer.

1348
01:14:46,600 --> 01:14:48,240
Speaker 1: And I mean that's something we talked about with George

1349
01:14:48,280 --> 01:14:50,719
Speaker 1: last week, like, not everything is going to work every time.

1350
01:14:51,040 --> 01:14:54,000
Speaker 1: So things that have worked for me have included meditation,

1351
01:14:54,560 --> 01:14:59,360
Speaker 1: They've included yoga, they've included journaling, They've included anything more

1352
01:14:59,560 --> 01:15:03,840
Speaker 1: physical and mindless, like doing the dishes or cleaning my apartment.

1353
01:15:04,720 --> 01:15:07,760
Speaker 1: But I've also had times where none of those things

1354
01:15:07,800 --> 01:15:10,439
Speaker 1: worked and I had to try something else entirely, you know,

1355
01:15:11,000 --> 01:15:16,360
Speaker 1: calling my mom, sitting and sobbing, putting on, you've got

1356
01:15:16,360 --> 01:15:18,840
Speaker 1: mail three times in a row. You know, Like it

1357
01:15:18,960 --> 01:15:21,920
Speaker 1: really just depends on the state. And I think that's

1358
01:15:21,960 --> 01:15:25,680
Speaker 1: the important thing, is like if we are feeling just

1359
01:15:25,800 --> 01:15:28,600
Speaker 1: regulated and our typical tools aren't working, it's okay to

1360
01:15:28,640 --> 01:15:30,840
Speaker 1: do something else. And it doesn't mean that something is wrong.

1361
01:15:31,040 --> 01:15:33,160
Speaker 1: It just means you're in a slightly different state than

1362
01:15:33,160 --> 01:15:35,040
Speaker 1: you were all those other times. You know.

1363
01:15:35,200 --> 01:15:35,920
Speaker 4: I love that.

1364
01:15:35,920 --> 01:15:39,839
Speaker 1: That's beautiful meditation, And you know, deep breathing can increase

1365
01:15:39,840 --> 01:15:41,200
Speaker 1: people's anxiety sometimes.

1366
01:15:41,240 --> 01:15:43,960
Speaker 2: Absolutely, I was just gonna throw that in whim hof

1367
01:15:44,080 --> 01:15:46,840
Speaker 2: is not for everyone. In fact, you might try it

1368
01:15:46,880 --> 01:15:49,400
Speaker 2: and be like I hate it, but you know, try

1369
01:15:49,439 --> 01:15:50,080
Speaker 2: different things.

1370
01:15:50,120 --> 01:15:52,560
Speaker 1: Why not If at first you don't succeed.

1371
01:15:52,520 --> 01:15:56,240
Speaker 2: Look look more on YouTube, but not too far on YouTube,

1372
01:15:56,240 --> 01:15:59,439
Speaker 2: because then then you're going to teal swamp. Absolutely, just

1373
01:15:59,439 --> 01:16:01,800
Speaker 2: give it a little dive and then, you know, do

1374
01:16:01,920 --> 01:16:04,920
Speaker 2: some breathing, do some journaling.

1375
01:16:05,080 --> 01:16:07,439
Speaker 1: Draw if you can draw. I can't draw, but I

1376
01:16:07,479 --> 01:16:09,640
Speaker 1: wish I could, you know, and if I could, I

1377
01:16:09,640 --> 01:16:11,080
Speaker 1: would do it and it would make me feel better.

1378
01:16:11,120 --> 01:16:14,439
Speaker 4: I'm sure. But I just ordered a very intense coloring book.

1379
01:16:14,520 --> 01:16:16,439
Speaker 1: I actually was thinking about getting a coloring book to

1380
01:16:16,520 --> 01:16:17,439
Speaker 1: calm my nerves.

1381
01:16:17,560 --> 01:16:19,599
Speaker 4: Yeah. I'll tell you, guys how it goes. You better

1382
01:16:19,640 --> 01:16:22,880
Speaker 4: show us the results. I will great. Thank you guys

1383
01:16:22,880 --> 01:16:24,880
Speaker 4: for joining us for another beautiful week.

1384
01:16:24,960 --> 01:16:28,920
Speaker 2: We cannot well beautiful and weather in Los Angeles very

1385
01:16:28,960 --> 01:16:32,280
Speaker 2: difficult world wise, but oh.

1386
01:16:32,120 --> 01:16:34,240
Speaker 1: My god, don't even get me started. I didn't even

1387
01:16:34,240 --> 01:16:35,760
Speaker 1: talk about the buck in Supreme Court.

1388
01:16:35,800 --> 01:16:37,519
Speaker 2: Okay, go on, we can't wait to see you here

1389
01:16:37,560 --> 01:16:40,840
Speaker 2: next time. Remember to follow your gut, watch out for

1390
01:16:41,080 --> 01:16:41,880
Speaker 2: d fox, and.

1391
01:16:41,960 --> 01:16:44,240
Speaker 1: Never ever trust me.

1392
01:16:44,880 --> 01:16:45,040
Speaker 3: Whi