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Speaker 1: Take a deep breath in through your nose. Hold it

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Speaker 1: now release slowly again deep in helle hold release, repeating

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Speaker 1: internally to yourself as you connect to my voice. I

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Speaker 1: am deeply, deeply well. I I am deeply well. I

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Speaker 1: am deeply wow. I'm Debbie Brown and this is the

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Speaker 1: Deeply Well Podcast. Welcome to Deeply Well, a soft place

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Speaker 1: to land on your journey of podcasts for those that

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Speaker 1: are curious, creative, and ready to expand in higher consciousness

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Speaker 1: and self care. This is where we heal, this is

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Speaker 1: where we come. Welcome back to the show. I'm Debi

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Speaker 1: Brown and today's episode we are deep, deep, deep deep,

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Speaker 1: diving and expanding in one of the most beautiful subjects

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Speaker 1: ever to grace this planet, one of the most masterful

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Speaker 1: tools to ever be given to us, and that is meditation.

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Speaker 1: Today's episode, I am joined by a very special guest,

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Speaker 1: one who I have loved watching from afar on Instagram

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Speaker 1: and connecting with their work and connecting with their daily inspiration.

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Speaker 1: Today's guest is Joel Cross, also known as a soul

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Speaker 1: called Joel. He's a certified meditation teacher, mindfulness coach, and

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Speaker 1: accomplished musician. He has been Grammy nominated for his collaborations

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Speaker 1: with India Ari Swoon. As a songwriter and a guitarist,

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Speaker 1: he has spent more than a decade immersed in research

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Speaker 1: and practice, and his wellness based offerings include the Rise Journal,

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Speaker 1: I Got That Poetry Music, and the Beautiful Mindfulness Community,

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Speaker 1: where he leaves guided meditations every morning. With a practical

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Speaker 1: approach to ancient meditation techniques, Joel helps individuals cultivate inner

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Speaker 1: peace and emotional stability while honoring their personal truths. A

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Speaker 1: soul called Joel, welcome to the show.

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Speaker 2: M thank you for having me.

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Speaker 1: How is your heart full? In yours so expansive? My

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Speaker 1: heart feels really really grounded and also vast in some

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Speaker 1: new ways right now.

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Speaker 2: So it's a good space to be in. Yeah, yeah

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Speaker 2: it is.

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Speaker 1: Where do I even want to begin? You know what? Actually,

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Speaker 1: the first question I'm going to ask you before we

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Speaker 1: dive into all of the questions, what is your favorite

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Speaker 1: NDR RE album?

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Speaker 3: From being really honest, it's still a sick soul. Oh yeah,

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Speaker 3: it's acoustics song. I remember being a teenager, I just

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Speaker 3: barely started playing guitar, didn't have any formal training. It

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Speaker 3: was just you know, messing with the instrument and I

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Speaker 3: heard the truth.

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Speaker 2: I heard Ready for Love heard video.

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Speaker 3: Of course, and I just remember thinking, that's what music's

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Speaker 3: supposed to sound like, that's what music is supposed to

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Speaker 3: be about.

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Speaker 2: Wow.

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Speaker 3: And of course as a guitar player, I totally nerded

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Speaker 3: out on all of the great musicians ever on the ring.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, I think that was the first time I

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Speaker 3: heard someone speak kindly about someone with a gap, which

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Speaker 3: was one of my insecurities I was working through as

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Speaker 3: a you know, a young man. But yeah, definitely acoustic soul.

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Speaker 1: Oh andr ree, It's just my god, what a gift

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Speaker 1: to this planet. Yes, what are her music and teachings

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Speaker 1: have just done? Especially I think back like on a

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Speaker 1: subconscious level, because there were songs that I connected to

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Speaker 1: so deeply at ages that I didn't have any depth

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Speaker 1: of self exploration in the way that I do now.

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Speaker 1: And I remember hearing those songs and then forgot and

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Speaker 1: I heard some recently and I was like, oh my god,

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Speaker 1: like she has been sharing the path for so long. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's just like wow, I love her. I

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Speaker 1: love her. I love her. My favorite album is I

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Speaker 1: Might butcher this Because I always get a couple of

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Speaker 1: words Switched but Testimony, Love and Relationships Volume one, Oh

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Speaker 1: my god, Oh my god. Yeah, yeah that that has

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Speaker 1: been such a beautiful homecoming for me for over ten years.

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Speaker 1: Every time I get to reconnect with that album, I'm

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Speaker 1: it's just.

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Speaker 2: Like, what a genius. What a genius? Yes, she really is.

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Speaker 1: I would love to get started Jel by asking you,

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Speaker 1: how did you connect to meditation for the first time

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Speaker 1: and how did you start that personal journey with it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's really kind of odd, but I come from

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Speaker 3: a very spiritual background, but it was very Christian traditional,

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Speaker 3: and around my early twenties, I felt myself wanting to

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Speaker 3: expand beyond that, not knowing what to do or where

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Speaker 3: to go. But meditation was loud in my intuition, just

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Speaker 3: like a spotlight on it in my life. And one

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Speaker 3: day I was finding like, Okay, I guess I'm going

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Speaker 3: to meditate. I have no idea what I'm doing. I

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Speaker 3: sit down in the corner of my room. I find

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Speaker 3: some meditation music on YouTube.

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Speaker 2: I put it on.

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Speaker 3: I was so inflexible I couldn't even sit cross legged right.

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Speaker 3: So I'm just kind of like hunkered down in this

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Speaker 3: corner and I have the most profound experience. I just

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Speaker 3: start intuitively breathing, and with each in breath, I would

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Speaker 3: focus on my thought out breath, I would visualize it

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Speaker 3: dissolving until there was nothing else in my mind. And

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Speaker 3: then I had this amazing visualization.

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Speaker 2: It was.

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Speaker 3: This intertwined connection with all of life. So as I exhaled,

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Speaker 3: whatever that last thought was disappeared, and I was shown

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Speaker 3: light coming down on it, and that light was combined

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Speaker 3: with the energy of that thought, of that idea and

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Speaker 3: being dispersed throughout the cosmos. Right, And then I saw

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Speaker 3: the water running through the plants, turning into the air

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Speaker 3: we breathe, and then someone harvesting that tree, turning it

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Speaker 3: into the desk that was in my room, right, And

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Speaker 3: then even driving down the road, feeling the energy of

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Speaker 3: the person next to me, and how that impacted me

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Speaker 3: very subtly, but very profoundly. And next thing I knew

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Speaker 3: it was about an hour later. I felt so light

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Speaker 3: I thought I was going to take flight. And I

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Speaker 3: came out of my room, still had my college roommates,

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Speaker 3: and I was like, guys.

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Speaker 2: I don't know what just happened, but you got to

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Speaker 2: dry this. Yeah. Wow, that was my first.

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Speaker 1: Experience You're first was the awakening?

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Speaker 2: Wow?

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Speaker 1: Wow?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: And so what changed after that?

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Speaker 3: Well, after that I started diving more deeply into the practice, certainly.

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Speaker 3: But what was interesting about six months later, I was

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Speaker 3: still very much a musician and only a musician, and

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Speaker 3: I caught tendinitis in my hand, and so my identity

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Speaker 3: was very wrapped up in music and only music. And

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Speaker 3: there was a bit of a crumbling of that whole

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Speaker 3: egoic structure because I went from practicing ten twelve hours

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Speaker 3: a day playing very fast jazz music to not being

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Speaker 3: able to play very basic songs I had learned when

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Speaker 3: I was a teenager. And I dove into the practice

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Speaker 3: and actually found this book You Can Heal Your Life

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Speaker 3: by Luise Hay, and she started talking about, well, all

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Speaker 3: of our illness is coming from where areas we haven't forgiven.

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Speaker 3: And in my mind, I'm like, I'm not holding anything

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Speaker 3: against anyone. I love everybody right, And she has this

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Speaker 3: dissolving resentment exercise that's I think it was created by

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Speaker 3: emmid Fox, where you're visualizing all the people in your

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Speaker 3: life on a stage doing the thing they love to

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Speaker 3: try to get into your subconscious And so I'm going

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Speaker 3: through different family members, friends, and I get to my

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Speaker 3: father and I couldn't do it, and I broke down bawling.

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Speaker 3: And so that became my meditation practice, just sitting on

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Speaker 3: my front porch in North Texas underneath an oldal tree

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Speaker 3: and trying to visualize my father having an enjoyable experience

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Speaker 3: as a way to heal and forgive. And after a

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Speaker 3: few months I was able to do it, and it

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Speaker 3: just kind of broke me open the whole other perspective

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Speaker 3: of my life on ways to connect to how I

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Speaker 3: perceive my reality, receive the world around me, but also

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Speaker 3: how absent I was from my feelings.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, that part, you know, yeah, that piece of

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Speaker 1: the dance of surrendering into meditation is it's just so

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Speaker 1: beautifully designed, so interesting, and so challenging. Yes, you know,

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Speaker 1: I don't. There are so many things that I want

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Speaker 1: to bring up right now at the same time about

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Speaker 1: things that you said, gosh so much. I think you

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Speaker 1: bring up the piece that I think keeps so many

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Speaker 1: people from going past that one or two times with

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Speaker 1: like a five minute practice or like a five minute

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Speaker 1: guided session to doing the deeper part of the truth,

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Speaker 1: sitting in silence with self. You know as a meditation teacher,

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Speaker 1: the first thing that I think many of us find

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Speaker 1: that we have to deal with is every person, every

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Speaker 1: single person that can test that they think too much.

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Speaker 1: You know, everyone thinks they're the only one that thinks

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Speaker 1: too much. It's like me too, before, I before, I

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Speaker 1: keep going, you know, but that is to be human.

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Speaker 1: It's why we're here. We're constantly processing and churning and

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Speaker 1: releasing this lifetime and so many so it's of course

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Speaker 1: we have thousands and thousands, but you know, the piece

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Speaker 1: about being able to access those deeper levels of our

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Speaker 1: own emotional life. I think that's where the fear comes

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Speaker 1: in for many that are desiring to start a practice.

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Speaker 1: You get through a couple guided meditations, you kind of

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Speaker 1: get into that five minute and you're feeling good because

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Speaker 1: you're feeling that initial kind of gratefulness for being able

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Speaker 1: to do it, noticing that you're not used to being

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Speaker 1: that still or that quiet, and then after a couple

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Speaker 1: of weeks, like the portal opens for you to start

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Speaker 1: releasing and noticing, why don't my hips come down when

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Speaker 1: I'm first trying to sit in a meditative posture, or

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Speaker 1: why does that stiffness come up, and why do I

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Speaker 1: judge it and get angry with it? And would you

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Speaker 1: speak to some of the ways to approach that feeling

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Speaker 1: when it begins and how to meet it, what to

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Speaker 1: do with it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I demystify by reframing the definition of meditation, and

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Speaker 3: I try to keep it as simple as possible. It's

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Speaker 3: self regulating your attention with intension, So I try to

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Speaker 3: let go of all of the ideas around this is

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Speaker 3: how I'm supposed to sit, this is the rigid structure

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Speaker 3: of what is kind of the mainstream idea of meditation.

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Speaker 3: And then I actually just send them to the journal, like,

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Speaker 3: don't even worry about how you're sitting, don't worry about

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Speaker 3: what's going on in your brain. Be active, right, So

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Speaker 3: focus your attention on writing and don't even judge it.

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Speaker 3: It's kind of how the Rise journal came about, because

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Speaker 3: the start of it is all about just really seeing

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Speaker 3: stream of consciousness.

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Speaker 2: Writing.

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Speaker 3: You're letting go of what's happening, You're being present to

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Speaker 3: what you're thinking, but you're also detaching at the same time.

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Speaker 3: So from that space it's like, oh wait, meditation can

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Speaker 3: be journaling. It opens them wide and then they start

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Speaker 3: building the confidence in the practice still yielding some of

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Speaker 3: the similar results, but from a totally different vantage point. Then,

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Speaker 3: of course, as you create that space, asking deeper questions,

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Speaker 3: asking hard questions as I like to call them, and

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Speaker 3: then holding space to hear from your heart right just

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Speaker 3: a few breaths opens you up in a way where

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Speaker 3: you're not worried about how you're sitting or judging yourself.

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Speaker 3: It's like you can do it for three breaths. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: and it's been so beautiful to hear the feedback from

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Speaker 3: the individuals who have started the journal on how much

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Speaker 3: it's really had an impact on their journeys.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the journey of meditation. It brings you so

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Speaker 1: many things you never knew to know you needed, especially

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Speaker 1: getting back into your body. I think that is a

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Speaker 1: big piece where when you start a meditation practice, you

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Speaker 1: don't realize that that's one of the fruits of it.

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Speaker 1: You don't even know that maybe you're out of your body,

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Speaker 1: or that you don't feel less connected to your emotional life,

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Speaker 1: and that you've never investigated why don't I? And you know,

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Speaker 1: then it all pours in slowly over time. You so

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Speaker 1: you begin every morning with your opening grading on Instagram,

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Speaker 1: and as I look at your page, I see how

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Speaker 1: much everyone that connects with your work especially connects with

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Speaker 1: that invitation to join the experience. So you begin by saying,

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Speaker 1: good morning, beautiful soul, how's your heart? How did that

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Speaker 1: come to you?

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Speaker 2: You know?

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Speaker 3: I think the first time someone asked me how my

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Speaker 3: heart was, it was a dear friend I call her

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Speaker 3: mama A. She's like a second friend, a second mom.

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Speaker 2: Excuse me.

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Speaker 3: And she's also in the wellness space psycho therapist and

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Speaker 3: a healer and showed up better space and she asked

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Speaker 3: me that. I was like, oh, I feel like I've

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Speaker 3: asked myself that in my journal in a way, but

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Speaker 3: I hadn't heard it from the outside. And you know,

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Speaker 3: this was maybe over a decade to go, and I

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Speaker 3: carried that, it's like someone else really in my space.

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Speaker 3: I was doing that, and I also at that same

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Speaker 3: time wanted to do it, but didn't know how to

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Speaker 3: initiate it with people.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 3: So, as I've been on this kind of wild journey

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Speaker 3: the last few years of kind of transitioning away from

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Speaker 3: this solo identity as a musician to sharing some of

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Speaker 3: my spiritual, spiritual parts of my life, with the world.

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Speaker 3: It's my creative process is all about flow. It stems

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Speaker 3: from this book Effortless Mastery, which changed my life. Literally

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Speaker 3: it's actually part of the way I met India. I'll

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Speaker 3: have to tell you that story at some point, but

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Speaker 3: it's literally about getting into this space or understanding this

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Speaker 3: idea that every other part of life is happening effortlessly right.

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Speaker 3: And a lot of those practices were all about channeling

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Speaker 3: the force of life as you breathe, own your mastery

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Speaker 3: as Debi, as Joel, and understanding that's not going to

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Speaker 3: look like any other person, and allowing it to float

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Speaker 3: through you.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 3: And from that place, all you have to do is

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Speaker 3: connect to the heart, listen, receive, and share. And as

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Speaker 3: I'm out of my hikes, walking meditation is my jam.

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Speaker 3: So I get into flow state on my hikes and

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Speaker 3: then once I feel connected, I just kind of turn

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Speaker 3: on the camera. And one day that came out and

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Speaker 3: I started sharing it and people really resonated with it,

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Speaker 3: and so I shared it more.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, those daily videos are so soothing, I think, especially

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Speaker 1: to the nervous system, because you are always in this

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Speaker 1: stunning backdrop somewhere where you know it is just like

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Speaker 1: the wild natural, you know, experience of being on earth

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Speaker 1: and being alive of what does your day to day

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Speaker 1: life look like? What is Have you always kind of

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Speaker 1: lived on the land or Okay.

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Speaker 3: No, definitely not. So my day to day life now

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Speaker 3: is very different from how I grew up or how

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Speaker 3: I've lived up until about three years ago. I was

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Speaker 3: in New York City, living in the middle of Manhattan. Wow,

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Speaker 3: writing music, playing music, and that's what I did.

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Speaker 2: Was married.

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Speaker 3: That marriage didn't work out, and as I transitioned from

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Speaker 3: that lifestyle, I went into a deep, deep surrendering to

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Speaker 3: my heart. And for a long time I wanted to travel.

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Speaker 3: I wanted to explore nature and really dive into a

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Speaker 3: minimalist lifestyle. And of course it was also the middle

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Speaker 3: of COVID, so that dream of doing that in Spain

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Speaker 3: wasn't going to happen. So the next best thing was

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Speaker 3: the RV. So I got an RV, got a truck,

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Speaker 3: and my gut was saying, get a field recorder, go

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Speaker 3: follow the resonance, the energy of the space. My intention

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Speaker 3: was to be able to navigate the energy of home

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Speaker 3: in any space right And so it led me actually

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Speaker 3: back to Maine that first summer, so I had gone

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Speaker 3: back to Texas to be with family for a while

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Speaker 3: to kind of regroup, and then I drove up to

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Speaker 3: literally the northern farthest most east point in the country,

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Speaker 3: and I thought I was going to stay a week,

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Speaker 3: ended up staying for two months.

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Speaker 2: Wow.

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Speaker 3: And every day it was literally, Okay, how's my heart.

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Speaker 3: That's a check in, But then it's what does my

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Speaker 3: heart want me to do today? Be very simple. Sometimes

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Speaker 3: we just go check out this trail, go check out that.

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Speaker 3: And I would always have my guitar in the truck,

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Speaker 3: in my chair, And one day I found some random

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Speaker 3: beach and it's rocky. I had to like off road.

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Speaker 3: I'm the only person out there, and I hear very

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Speaker 3: loudly just play. So I just kind of set up

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Speaker 3: things and I start playing, and I'm just in this

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Speaker 3: state a deep connection to source and nature. And there's

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Speaker 3: this beautiful thing that happens when you get far enough

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Speaker 3: away from the collective energy that you feel this clarity

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Speaker 3: and this piece of just being a human animal on

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Speaker 3: this planet. Right, And we try to separate ourselves from

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Speaker 3: the other animals. We're human animals, right. We have a

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Speaker 3: lot of gifts that they don't have, but reconnecting to

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Speaker 3: the earth in a way where there's no distraction, there's

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Speaker 3: no need to do anything. Thing else would be And

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Speaker 3: in that heart space is where all the gold lies.

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Speaker 3: It's our seed, right, you're planning seed for a flower.

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Speaker 3: You give it the proper environment you will grow for us,

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Speaker 3: listening to the wisdom and instructions in our seed is

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Speaker 3: how we grow.

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Speaker 1: That must have felt so extraordinary, especially processing the ending

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Speaker 1: of something meaningful to you in the midst of a

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Speaker 1: global reckoning. To have this space, like very literally, like

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Speaker 1: to be in such an expansive element, all your cells

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Speaker 1: kind of follow suit. You know. How did that process

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Speaker 1: feel for you? And how do you feel that you

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Speaker 1: emerged from the pendemic?

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Speaker 3: Oh wow, it's like a cocoon going into a cocoon,

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Speaker 3: if you will. Yeah, that travel trailer was my cocoon.

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Speaker 3: It was a deeply challenging process. Right, I don't even

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Speaker 3: remember what you asked me earlier, totally like went left

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Speaker 3: and I'm realizing that now, so you'll have to ask

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Speaker 3: me to get But that process felt like a deep

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Speaker 3: shedding of the disguises and masks and the unconscious manipulation disguises. Yeah, Yeah,

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Speaker 3: there's a song I wrote with India called the Hour

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Speaker 3: of Love, and it's all about taking an hour each

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Speaker 3: day for your practice or your prayer, whatever your rituals are.

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Speaker 3: And at the end we have the refrain be rid

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Speaker 3: of your disguises again, Be rid of your disguises again,

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Speaker 3: Be rid of your disguises again, because every day we

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Speaker 3: have a sense memory with all of these spaces and people,

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Speaker 3: and we forget, right, we have to forget ourselves to

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Speaker 3: feel safe or to protect ourselves in those situations, not

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Speaker 3: realizing that we could reconnect to hope and transform our

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Speaker 3: situation or rather set the tone in those spaces deeply.

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Speaker 1: Well, how many years have you been in the RV now?

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Speaker 2: Three?

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Speaker 3: Wow?

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Speaker 1: This is a big question that I know has like

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Speaker 1: such a multitude of answers, But I will attempt that

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Speaker 1: experience of being by yourself and also very consciously being

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Speaker 1: intuitively led about where your next destiny. I just you know,

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Speaker 1: I can't even imagine how masterful and healing having that

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Speaker 1: as an addition to the process of everything else right,

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Speaker 1: because it's like then you are living in intuition and

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Speaker 1: you're also not being You're not leaking energy in any

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Speaker 1: way especially from those day to day interactions or you know,

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Speaker 1: just bumping up against a lot of the fear and

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Speaker 1: the grief that's present in people right now.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So looking back who you were when you stepped

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Speaker 1: in to right now three years later in this moment,

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Speaker 1: what are you noticing as some of the greatest gifts

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Speaker 1: of this experience.

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Speaker 3: Oh, freedom is the one word answer, but there's so many.

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Speaker 3: I remember before maybe twenty eighteen, there was a meme

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Speaker 3: that said I want a life, I don't need a vacation,

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Speaker 3: and I was like, Oh, that's so great, and then

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Speaker 3: I see that with that, I was like, what does

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Speaker 3: that even mean for me? You know, what would that

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Speaker 3: look like? And I knew that I didn't want to

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Speaker 3: have as spontaneous a schedule as I did as only

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Speaker 3: a musician, because I wanted to have children one day

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Speaker 3: and you know that'll come at some point. But a

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Speaker 3: large part of that was i'de work an hour or

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Speaker 3: two each day. I have a lot of time to

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Speaker 3: connect to nature, have a lot of time to be

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Speaker 3: with my family and those who I care about, because

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Speaker 3: I know that I don't need much, but I also

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Speaker 3: know that I'm happiest when i'm connected to those things.

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Speaker 3: So the greatest gift is that now I'm closer to

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Speaker 3: that dream than ever, and I feel more embodied than ever.

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Speaker 3: I had to face a lot of my own demons

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Speaker 3: through that process, the ways that I created a partnership

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Speaker 3: that wasn't resonant with who I am because of all

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Speaker 3: those masks and disguises. Doing some deep soul healing work

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Speaker 3: with my family. Of course, we all know those things

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Speaker 3: start in childhood. Yeah, and to face one of my

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Speaker 3: greatest fears, which was to be rejected by my family

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Speaker 3: as maybe one of the as the only individual and

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Speaker 3: the immediate family who doesn't adhere to the tradition.

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Speaker 2: That we were brought up in. Wow.

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Speaker 3: So's it's freedom to know that beyond that fear, we

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Speaker 3: still love each other.

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Speaker 2: Had a lot of growing.

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Speaker 3: Pains and learning how to accept the things that may

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Speaker 3: or may not ever be.

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Speaker 2: What we want.

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Speaker 1: You know, when you speak about especially the dynamic that

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Speaker 1: the Christian Church and black family in the Christian Church,

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Speaker 1: you know the role that that plays, both the deep

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Speaker 1: importance especially historically, and also some of the ways that

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Speaker 1: I think collectively were exploring some of the negative aspects

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Speaker 1: of that and relationships of that. How has as a

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Speaker 1: black man, how has that? What have you been noticing

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Speaker 1: with that? I don't necessarily have a question around it,

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Speaker 1: because I've been observing it myself. And you know, as

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Speaker 1: someone I didn't grow up in the church, I kind

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Speaker 1: of grew up with all beliefs, none that were given

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Speaker 1: to me, but I was always exploring them everywhere. But

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Speaker 1: you know, I remember when I first started teaching meditation,

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Speaker 1: it really caught me by surprise how substantial that part

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Speaker 1: of our belief was is, and how many spaces I

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Speaker 1: was going into and it was being so rejected, and

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Speaker 1: how as a teacher I had to really adopt and

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Speaker 1: study different ways of teaching this so that people didn't

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Speaker 1: think it was a competitor of God. They understood it

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Speaker 1: was one and the same. And you know, is often

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Speaker 1: shared in this work prayers, when you talk to God,

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Speaker 1: meditation is when you listen for the answers. So to

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Speaker 1: take up a lifestyle like this in many regards right,

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Speaker 1: like being out alone in nature right, And so many people,

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Speaker 1: especially in communities of color, historically haven't always had access

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Speaker 1: to nature because of you know, laws during segregation that

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Speaker 1: then led us to thinking that that's not for us,

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Speaker 1: and so you're you're you're kind of shifting a lot

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Speaker 1: of things by existing, by being yourself right now in

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Speaker 1: this moment, and so what are I'm just curious any

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Speaker 1: thoughts or observations you've had out kind of those polarities

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Speaker 1: and navigating conversations with people from more of a Christian community.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, so for a more accurate depiction of

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Speaker 3: my upbringing, my dad's like a third generation Southern Baptist.

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Speaker 2: Wow, so's it's thick family.

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Speaker 3: My grandfather at a church in New Orleans. My great

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Speaker 3: grandfather started that church and now I think my cousin's

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Speaker 3: the lead pastor of that church. So there's a long,

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Speaker 3: a long history there. And now within the black community

440
00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:55,160
Speaker 3: in general, I think there is a lot of different misunderstandings.

441
00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:57,880
Speaker 3: I think because there hasn't been a lot of exposure

442
00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:01,360
Speaker 3: in those spaces, because we have a lot of trauma

443
00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:04,240
Speaker 3: in our community, right and that's where we found safety.

444
00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:09,040
Speaker 3: That's where we found ways to connect and transcend mentally

445
00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:13,240
Speaker 3: and spiritually. The injustices and the hatred and the murders

446
00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:16,960
Speaker 3: and everything that we endured as a community. That was

447
00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:23,040
Speaker 3: our anchor. And so we learned through that history that

448
00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:28,200
Speaker 3: anything other than may disrupt that feeling of security, and

449
00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:32,640
Speaker 3: so my approach now it's one of the reasons that

450
00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:35,640
Speaker 3: I use the language of the heart, because I wanted

451
00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:37,760
Speaker 3: to find the language that we can agree on. And

452
00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:40,120
Speaker 3: when I use words like God or even the divine,

453
00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:46,040
Speaker 3: it gets there's a lot of questions, right, So when

454
00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:48,040
Speaker 3: I think of hard I'm like, well, we're all off heart,

455
00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:52,440
Speaker 3: we all have love. How can we approach this from

456
00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:58,480
Speaker 3: a vantage point of connection, right and harmony? But even

457
00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:04,880
Speaker 3: still there's those who will be close to that. But

458
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:10,400
Speaker 3: I recognize that it's really about exposure, and I know

459
00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:15,800
Speaker 3: that within my community, my family unit, that I've softened

460
00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:18,600
Speaker 3: a lot of those rough edges in a way because

461
00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:21,600
Speaker 3: as family, even though there were periods where we struggled,

462
00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:25,240
Speaker 3: there was still that pure intention of wanting to stay connected,

463
00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:28,400
Speaker 3: wanted to be as loving as we knew how, and

464
00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:35,160
Speaker 3: learning that unconditional love means showing up to meet people

465
00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:41,320
Speaker 3: where they are right, and how we find constancy in

466
00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:46,360
Speaker 3: that is grace and compassion. The other thing I wanted

467
00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:49,560
Speaker 3: to share about our community and this whole piece with nature,

468
00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:57,760
Speaker 3: going back to George Floyd, for me, I had a

469
00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:01,280
Speaker 3: deep I think we all had a deep awakening of

470
00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:09,920
Speaker 3: sorts around injustice in our country. I had to figure

471
00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:15,280
Speaker 3: out how I wanted to approach that topic in a

472
00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:20,640
Speaker 3: way that would transform our community while also maintaining who

473
00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:26,200
Speaker 3: I am. And one of the intentions around my travel

474
00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:31,760
Speaker 3: was to embody us reclaiming our bodies in nature as

475
00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:34,200
Speaker 3: grounding as we know it is to see, you know,

476
00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:36,880
Speaker 3: if I'm in the mountains of the Pacific Northwest or

477
00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:39,840
Speaker 3: by a river or whatever it may be, for us

478
00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:45,520
Speaker 3: to reclaim a right as humans, human animals, human species

479
00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:48,640
Speaker 3: on this planet out of nature. Because I can tell

480
00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:50,280
Speaker 3: you when I told my parents what I was going

481
00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:51,680
Speaker 3: to do, they were like, where are you going?

482
00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:53,440
Speaker 2: What are you doing?

483
00:33:56,560 --> 00:33:58,000
Speaker 1: Why? Right? You know.

484
00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:03,320
Speaker 3: Where you're going to the remote places? You know, I've

485
00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:07,560
Speaker 3: been way off grid. And but you know, part of

486
00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:12,239
Speaker 3: that was healing my own trauma around nature and having

487
00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:16,800
Speaker 3: those fears and fixing them. And you had a Resma

488
00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:17,719
Speaker 3: Minicum on your show.

489
00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:21,520
Speaker 1: Yes I did, good brother, Yes, Yes.

490
00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:24,840
Speaker 3: Thank you Resma. In order to learn thank you. But

491
00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:28,200
Speaker 3: after doing some work through his book Grandma's.

492
00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:30,160
Speaker 1: Hands, God, My Grandmother's Hands.

493
00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:34,840
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, like healing some of that trauma around police

494
00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:39,680
Speaker 3: and injustice. It shifted my perspective on how to honor

495
00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:44,960
Speaker 3: this wow right as a black man out of nature,

496
00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:48,920
Speaker 3: not just the stigma we have around going out, but

497
00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:53,200
Speaker 3: also culturally the identity that we bear within the stereotype

498
00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:55,080
Speaker 3: as black people don't do certain things.

499
00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:58,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and how.

500
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:05,319
Speaker 3: Just limiting that can be and misleading you know. So

501
00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:09,880
Speaker 3: that was Those are the ways that I approach those things.

502
00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:15,280
Speaker 3: But it's still a journey, journey for sure.

503
00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:17,960
Speaker 1: What are some of the things you like to do

504
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:19,200
Speaker 1: when you're alone in nature?

505
00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:25,040
Speaker 3: I'm alone. I will put on a fire if the

506
00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:31,080
Speaker 3: weather's great, make a kettle of tea and play guitar.

507
00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:40,800
Speaker 3: Or I will write poetry, read are just ground, just ground,

508
00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:45,080
Speaker 3: and enjoy it. And of course it's all all of

509
00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:47,640
Speaker 3: that is a meditation to me, it's not separate.

510
00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:48,279
Speaker 1: Yeah.

511
00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:55,760
Speaker 3: I went through this thing of recognizing all these identities

512
00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:59,040
Speaker 3: we attached to right as a black man, as a

513
00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:03,040
Speaker 3: man of a certain age, assistant mail and realizing I

514
00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:06,680
Speaker 3: kind of bust a lot of those things wide open, right,

515
00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:12,720
Speaker 3: And realizing on a fundamental level is human animals. We

516
00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:16,680
Speaker 3: are supposed to be connected to nature, and the way

517
00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:22,120
Speaker 3: I feel comfortable doing that is by just honoring the pool.

518
00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:26,040
Speaker 3: I don't have to overthink it. It doesn't have to

519
00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:29,160
Speaker 3: be again this whole life that I don't want to

520
00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:30,080
Speaker 3: vacation from.

521
00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:30,520
Speaker 2: Right.

522
00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:33,200
Speaker 3: If I'm connected every day, I'm not stressed, I'm not

523
00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:40,759
Speaker 3: overworking myself. I'm not stuck in the productivity, capitalistic identity

524
00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:45,920
Speaker 3: or pattern. It can be connect to the community in

525
00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:52,240
Speaker 3: the mornings and enjoy the day deeply.

526
00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:59,239
Speaker 1: Wow. Connecting with nature has been one of the most like,

527
00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:09,360
Speaker 1: surprisingly pleasurable, exciting, incredible experiences. I think of my life

528
00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:12,480
Speaker 1: and I grew up in La so we have a

529
00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:13,600
Speaker 1: beautiful city.

530
00:37:13,719 --> 00:37:13,840
Speaker 2: You know.

531
00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:16,080
Speaker 1: It's not that I'm far from nature, but it's not

532
00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:19,520
Speaker 1: outside of the beach. It's not something like you're going

533
00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:22,920
Speaker 1: out of your way to do. But that forest energy,

534
00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:30,120
Speaker 1: like that river energy, is crazy. It's just like, Wow.

535
00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:34,120
Speaker 1: I had this experience recently. I just shared it on

536
00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:38,480
Speaker 1: this last episode. But it's so much funnier than I've

537
00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:40,319
Speaker 1: even told it now. But I'm going to tell it

538
00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:44,680
Speaker 1: more of a basic way. But I went. I was

539
00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:48,640
Speaker 1: visiting Paris a couple weeks ago, and by surprise, I

540
00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:53,120
Speaker 1: found this tiny little forest on the outskirts of Paris,

541
00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:56,920
Speaker 1: which was like I did not expect that to happen. Yeah,

542
00:37:57,520 --> 00:38:00,239
Speaker 1: And the second I walked in it almost felt like

543
00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:02,880
Speaker 1: a movie Like it was like, you know, secret garden

544
00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:05,480
Speaker 1: or something like you push through this little path and

545
00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:07,560
Speaker 1: you open up, you know, the branches, and all of

546
00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:10,040
Speaker 1: a sudden, it's like, ha, you know, it's just this

547
00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:15,880
Speaker 1: whole ancient forest with moss grown over all of the bark.

548
00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:18,960
Speaker 1: And that takes a certain amount of years and decades

549
00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:21,960
Speaker 1: to happen, and you know, it's just being able to

550
00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:25,920
Speaker 1: I love to like bury my hands and feet and

551
00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:29,080
Speaker 1: like the soiler and like especially if I'm somewhere like Sedona,

552
00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:34,160
Speaker 1: but having opportunities for me now to be out traveling,

553
00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:39,120
Speaker 1: whether for work or pleasure, and find like a beautiful

554
00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:43,520
Speaker 1: natural element of that area and almost you know, it

555
00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:46,600
Speaker 1: feels as if I my soul longs to pay homage

556
00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:48,919
Speaker 1: to the earth in that area and to learn from

557
00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:54,480
Speaker 1: it while I'm there. So it's been exquisite getting to

558
00:38:54,520 --> 00:38:58,280
Speaker 1: know nature, and for so I think for so many

559
00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:01,839
Speaker 1: of us, that is the piece where it's like when

560
00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:04,200
Speaker 1: we first think of our practices, it's kind of your

561
00:39:04,520 --> 00:39:06,880
Speaker 1: your I'm going to do this, I'm going to do this,

562
00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:08,440
Speaker 1: I'm gonna do this. I'm going to do something for

563
00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:12,440
Speaker 1: you know, my mind, my spirit, my body. And it's

564
00:39:12,520 --> 00:39:15,440
Speaker 1: such a checklist kind of thing that it can be overwhelming,

565
00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:19,400
Speaker 1: so it doesn't even feel good for quite a while.

566
00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:23,680
Speaker 1: It feels like a chore. But turning your practice into

567
00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:26,440
Speaker 1: everything that you just said, which is it's not rigid,

568
00:39:26,520 --> 00:39:30,799
Speaker 1: it's flexible. It's based on your intuition, it's based on

569
00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:34,000
Speaker 1: the longings of your being for that day, for that moment,

570
00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:37,720
Speaker 1: and then getting out and just being at play.

571
00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:45,319
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's.

572
00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:46,560
Speaker 2: We're really simple beings.

573
00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:53,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, and we live in a world that's been complicated.

574
00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:56,880
Speaker 3: This The thing that kind of brought me back was

575
00:39:57,400 --> 00:40:00,920
Speaker 3: have you read Miracle of Mindfulness? Taking that hon Oh?

576
00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:03,879
Speaker 3: That was my first book on meditation. I read very

577
00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:07,000
Speaker 3: simple manual. I was inspired by him because he was

578
00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:12,520
Speaker 3: a mentor for our Martin Luther King, one of many,

579
00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:18,080
Speaker 3: I'm sure, but so I read this book and keeps

580
00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:19,960
Speaker 3: it very simple. He's like, when eating an orange, you

581
00:40:19,960 --> 00:40:23,960
Speaker 3: should know how to eat an orange. When washing the dishes,

582
00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:27,359
Speaker 3: you should know how to wash the dishes. And at

583
00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:28,520
Speaker 3: first it was like, I don't get it, what are

584
00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:31,120
Speaker 3: you talking about? This is so weird, and he repeats

585
00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:35,160
Speaker 3: all of these different daily activities, and then he mentions

586
00:40:35,239 --> 00:40:39,719
Speaker 3: this manual that a lot of the monks had, which

587
00:40:39,760 --> 00:40:43,120
Speaker 3: is called the Essential Discipline for Daily Use, And they

588
00:40:43,160 --> 00:40:44,920
Speaker 3: had all of these little mantras that they would apply

589
00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:47,440
Speaker 3: to different daily activities. And one of the ones I

590
00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:51,680
Speaker 3: remember well is washing my hands. I hope that every

591
00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:57,160
Speaker 3: being has pure hands to receive reality. Yeah, right, right,

592
00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:04,160
Speaker 3: And so I went looking for this book, couldn't find

593
00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:06,640
Speaker 3: it at the time, so I started writing my own

594
00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:09,920
Speaker 3: and I would do that. As I washed my hands,

595
00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:12,920
Speaker 3: I would have these intentions or as I brushed my teeth,

596
00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:16,200
Speaker 3: little daily things a few moments, right, thirty seconds, whatever

597
00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:19,080
Speaker 3: it is, a few breasts, and I realized I developed

598
00:41:19,120 --> 00:41:21,719
Speaker 3: a sense memory with these spaces, right, So as I

599
00:41:21,760 --> 00:41:24,239
Speaker 3: would make my tea, I would just feel peaceful and

600
00:41:24,280 --> 00:41:27,640
Speaker 3: drownded as I washed my hands, and then I would

601
00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:30,839
Speaker 3: just kind of stay mostly in the flow throughout the day,

602
00:41:31,640 --> 00:41:35,360
Speaker 3: where there wasn't this heavy partition of I need to

603
00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:37,400
Speaker 3: spend an hour a day because this week just was

604
00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:42,520
Speaker 3: like ruined me. I've been so overwhelmed. But these little

605
00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:45,080
Speaker 3: moments of all the things you're going to do anyway

606
00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:46,760
Speaker 3: now become a part.

607
00:41:46,640 --> 00:41:48,600
Speaker 2: Of the practice.

608
00:41:50,520 --> 00:41:58,000
Speaker 1: That's mastery. Yeah, Like it's devotional, ritualistic to master something

609
00:41:58,040 --> 00:42:03,040
Speaker 1: with ease, with grace, to commit the knowing to your body. Yeah,

610
00:42:03,080 --> 00:42:05,920
Speaker 1: and to make it. The word that I keep using

611
00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:09,680
Speaker 1: for for what I experience in that way is like pleasurable,

612
00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:13,880
Speaker 1: you know, to make it feel good throughout.

613
00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:15,640
Speaker 2: That.

614
00:42:16,840 --> 00:42:24,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, that is that has been the change, the deepening

615
00:42:24,719 --> 00:42:27,040
Speaker 1: I think I've been most excited about in my own

616
00:42:27,080 --> 00:42:31,160
Speaker 1: life and practice. You know, practicing meditation for quite a while,

617
00:42:31,200 --> 00:42:33,759
Speaker 1: but it takes time to get to the places you

618
00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:36,080
Speaker 1: need to get to. And it's been in the last

619
00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:39,640
Speaker 1: couple of years that it's just felt no matter what

620
00:42:39,719 --> 00:42:43,040
Speaker 1: you could be going through, just almost it's just such

621
00:42:43,080 --> 00:42:46,359
Speaker 1: a craving to have this spiritual practice. There is no

622
00:42:47,120 --> 00:42:50,359
Speaker 1: way I would miss a second of it. I'll move

623
00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:54,239
Speaker 1: anything else around in my life to make time for that.

624
00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:57,960
Speaker 1: You know, any meeting can be canceled for my meditation

625
00:42:59,520 --> 00:43:05,719
Speaker 1: and to hit that point and to really know what

626
00:43:05,800 --> 00:43:08,440
Speaker 1: it took to get there. For each of us individually,

627
00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:10,680
Speaker 1: when we make it there, whatever that looks like for

628
00:43:10,719 --> 00:43:13,719
Speaker 1: each of us, it's just so beautiful, you know, just

629
00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:17,520
Speaker 1: such a pride really sets in for what you were

630
00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:21,600
Speaker 1: willing to dance with and let go of. Wow.

631
00:43:23,040 --> 00:43:27,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's so beautiful to hear the stories of others

632
00:43:27,160 --> 00:43:32,640
Speaker 3: and when, where and how and their avenue. Even you

633
00:43:32,719 --> 00:43:37,080
Speaker 3: describing this little forested area in Paris that was naturally touched.

634
00:43:37,520 --> 00:43:39,200
Speaker 2: Oh my god, it's so avid.

635
00:43:39,080 --> 00:43:43,319
Speaker 3: Because on one hand, you're in Paris right right, and

636
00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:48,440
Speaker 3: then there's this natural area that's just captivating and resonating.

637
00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:54,279
Speaker 1: I was ret force for three hours, you know, like

638
00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:58,000
Speaker 1: it was just and I really and there were so

639
00:43:58,080 --> 00:44:01,120
Speaker 1: many tiny paths, there was a there was just this

640
00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:07,400
Speaker 1: like insane amount of crows filling the forest talking to

641
00:44:07,480 --> 00:44:11,680
Speaker 1: each other. And I'm rarely around crows. It was just like,

642
00:44:12,719 --> 00:44:15,800
Speaker 1: oh god, it was so good.

643
00:44:16,280 --> 00:44:22,479
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's so it's funny, right, Yes,

644
00:44:23,160 --> 00:44:26,600
Speaker 3: that's that's the thing for me. I had this awakening

645
00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:31,440
Speaker 3: in twenty twenty one, this moment, like a third eye thing,

646
00:44:31,760 --> 00:44:36,080
Speaker 3: and I went out on this walk, long walk, like

647
00:44:36,160 --> 00:44:40,640
Speaker 3: ten miles, and the birds. It was like I could

648
00:44:40,760 --> 00:44:43,520
Speaker 3: hear the birds. It was like I've lived my whole life,

649
00:44:43,520 --> 00:44:47,040
Speaker 3: but I haven't heard the birds. They really taken in

650
00:44:47,640 --> 00:44:52,280
Speaker 3: their unique song, their essence, their brightness, They're brilliant and

651
00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:57,560
Speaker 3: feeling it like letting it move you. And it was

652
00:44:57,640 --> 00:45:00,880
Speaker 3: the most beautiful thing. And so it joy. Now just

653
00:45:00,880 --> 00:45:04,160
Speaker 3: to hear bird songs, I laugh and I'm taken because

654
00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:08,520
Speaker 3: I feel like I understand something about them that I

655
00:45:08,640 --> 00:45:09,520
Speaker 3: never had access to.

656
00:45:13,239 --> 00:45:21,440
Speaker 1: Oh God, to be alive, be alive, to be awakened,

657
00:45:23,520 --> 00:45:26,520
Speaker 1: what a joy, what a gift to witness it all

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Speaker 1: a soul cultural I think as my final question on

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Speaker 1: this episode, I would like to ask you if you

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Speaker 1: could share some soul work with us. Is there a

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00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:49,279
Speaker 1: prompt that you can leave with our audience for self awareness,

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00:45:49,320 --> 00:45:54,600
Speaker 1: for reflection, something to meditate to, to savor throughout today?

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Speaker 3: Hm, there is this size this year with my community

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Speaker 3: over the weekend. It's really simple and it's you know,

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Speaker 3: you think average lifespan about eighty years. Subtract whatever your

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00:46:13,760 --> 00:46:16,880
Speaker 3: age is, right, and now'll think of your favorite season

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Speaker 3: you have that many of those seasons left?

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Speaker 1: Wow?

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Speaker 2: Right?

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Speaker 3: I feel like years for some reason goes over our head.

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Speaker 3: But if you think of your favorite season and the

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Speaker 3: scarcity of that season, something turns on.

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Speaker 2: And now.

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Speaker 3: It's very simple, right, So just close your eyes, breathing

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Speaker 3: into the heart space and simply as the heart, what

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Speaker 3: does it want those seasons to be? What is it

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00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:21,200
Speaker 3: want them to look like? I feel like? And then

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Speaker 3: once that vision arises, simply set the intention to honor

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Speaker 3: the vision of your heart. And another breath, simply returning

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Speaker 3: to the room.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, m welcome, Thank you.

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Speaker 1: How can everyone get connected to you?

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Speaker 2: That's the.

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Speaker 3: On all the social media, the Soul Cultural and a

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Speaker 3: soul Cultural dot com.

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Speaker 1: And rise journal and Amazon Primeate. Yes, Joel, thank you

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Speaker 1: so much for joining us today.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, Thank you.

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Speaker 1: We'll be back next week, no mistay. Connect with me

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Speaker 1: on social at Debbie Brown that's Twitter and Instagram, or

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Speaker 1: you can go to my website Debbie Brown dot com.

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00:48:32,040 --> 00:48:34,719
Speaker 1: And if you're listening to the show on Apple Podcasts,

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Speaker 1: don't forget. Please rate, review, and subscribe and send this

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Speaker 1: episode to a friend. Deeply Well is a production of

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00:48:42,160 --> 00:48:46,360
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio and The Black Effect Network. It's produced by Jacqueis Thomas,

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00:48:46,640 --> 00:48:51,200
Speaker 1: Samantha Timmins and me Debbie Brown. The beautiful Soundback You

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Speaker 1: Heard That's by Jarrelen Glass from Crystal Cadence. For more

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00:48:56,360 --> 00:49:01,120
Speaker 1: podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app. Wherever you listen

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00:49:01,200 --> 00:49:06,600
Speaker 1: to your favorite shows,