WEBVTT - Pointing, Part 1 0:00:03.040 --> 0:00:05.360 Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of My 0:00:05.480 --> 0:00:14.720 Heart Radio. Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 0:00:14.840 --> 0:00:17.799 My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. And 0:00:17.960 --> 0:00:22.640 today I wanted to talk a bit about pointing. I 0:00:22.680 --> 0:00:26.120 think the episodes that we recently did on Medusa really 0:00:26.160 --> 0:00:28.560 got me in the mind to think about the power 0:00:28.600 --> 0:00:32.360 of pointing with a finger, because when we talked about 0:00:32.400 --> 0:00:34.640 Medusa recently, you know, we ended up spending a lot 0:00:34.640 --> 0:00:37.840 of time thinking about like what what a gaze means, 0:00:37.880 --> 0:00:40.559 What it means, you know, to imagine this kind of 0:00:40.720 --> 0:00:43.560 ray emerging from the eyes as you look at someone, 0:00:43.720 --> 0:00:46.520 and the and the mystical power that ancient people seem 0:00:46.600 --> 0:00:49.879 to think that had. But there's a counterpart to that, 0:00:50.240 --> 0:00:53.320 which is the pointing finger or the pointing hand. It 0:00:53.320 --> 0:00:57.480 almost seems like it's the sort of celestial twin of 0:00:57.520 --> 0:01:00.600 the of the powerful gaze. Yeah, and if you if 0:01:00.640 --> 0:01:03.880 you followed us in those Medusa episodes and and followed 0:01:03.880 --> 0:01:06.720 our discussion of of what it is to gaze, it's 0:01:06.760 --> 0:01:09.360 something to be gazed at. To have our you know, 0:01:09.560 --> 0:01:12.600 attention focused in such a way, then I think you 0:01:12.600 --> 0:01:15.160 you have a you're in a better place to then contemplate, 0:01:15.640 --> 0:01:19.679 uh pointing this, uh, this extra layer of complexity with 0:01:19.760 --> 0:01:23.000 human attention. Yeah, I agree. So in fact, I would say, 0:01:23.000 --> 0:01:25.240 you know, if you haven't listened to our Medusa episodes yet, 0:01:25.319 --> 0:01:27.000 you'll probably get more out of this one if you 0:01:27.040 --> 0:01:28.800 go and listen to those first. Though you don't have 0:01:28.880 --> 0:01:31.240 to write, I would recommend it. So yeah, let's get 0:01:31.319 --> 0:01:34.080 right into it. Uh. In the spirit this is actually 0:01:34.080 --> 0:01:35.800 one of my favorite things to do on the show, 0:01:36.319 --> 0:01:39.960 is just to take something that's so familiar it's invisible 0:01:40.040 --> 0:01:43.319 to us and try to figure out again what's strange 0:01:43.360 --> 0:01:45.360 about it that. That's where I want to start with 0:01:45.440 --> 0:01:50.720 pointing um, because I think it's easy to miss how 0:01:51.280 --> 0:01:56.520 weird and versatile and ingenious the pointing gesture is. It's 0:01:56.560 --> 0:02:00.560 one of those miracles of nature that the usually remains 0:02:00.600 --> 0:02:04.080 invisible to us until it fails. I love how the 0:02:04.120 --> 0:02:06.480 brain works like that, like you don't see it until 0:02:06.840 --> 0:02:09.960 it doesn't work, because it almost always works. And one 0:02:09.960 --> 0:02:12.720 of the ways for me that it fails most often 0:02:13.320 --> 0:02:15.360 is when I try to use it with my dog. 0:02:16.040 --> 0:02:18.160 Now there is evidence actually, and we can talk about 0:02:18.160 --> 0:02:21.359 this later in the episode, that sometimes domestic dogs can 0:02:21.480 --> 0:02:25.200 understand pointing gestures, and I was testing it out a 0:02:25.200 --> 0:02:28.200 good bit with my dog Charlie the other day. I 0:02:28.200 --> 0:02:32.160 would say, occasionally he sort of seems to to to 0:02:32.280 --> 0:02:35.800 follow a pointing gesture, but it's very rare. Most of 0:02:35.840 --> 0:02:38.000 the time he definitely does not get it. And when 0:02:38.040 --> 0:02:41.079 I extend my finger to point something out to him, 0:02:41.400 --> 0:02:44.359 Charlie doesn't look in the direction that I'm pointing. He 0:02:44.400 --> 0:02:48.120 looks at my hand because I think most of the time, 0:02:48.160 --> 0:02:51.440 to to him and his dog's brain, there is no 0:02:51.520 --> 0:02:55.480 such thing as pointing. The outstretched hand and finger is 0:02:55.520 --> 0:02:59.359 simply a currently active part of my body I might 0:02:59.360 --> 0:03:01.160 be about to use. Is it to feed him or 0:03:01.160 --> 0:03:04.200 to pet him, you know, activities that interest him, but 0:03:04.280 --> 0:03:08.600 the activity does not seem to indicate anything beyond my body. 0:03:08.919 --> 0:03:11.680 And it's this kind of failure that makes you appreciate 0:03:11.680 --> 0:03:16.240 how strange and amazing pointing actually is. Uh So, probably 0:03:16.320 --> 0:03:19.160 the most basic definition of pointing, I would say, is 0:03:19.639 --> 0:03:22.880 it's a movement of the body in the direction of 0:03:22.880 --> 0:03:26.640 a target that draws the attention of an audience to 0:03:26.840 --> 0:03:31.120 that target. But beyond that, I think it's also interesting 0:03:31.160 --> 0:03:36.680 because pointing projects the reach of the body in imaginary space. 0:03:36.800 --> 0:03:42.160 I can extend my hand and instantly cause you, not 0:03:42.160 --> 0:03:44.840 not just invite you to, but sort of cause you, 0:03:44.920 --> 0:03:49.600 even against your own will, to imagine an invisible geometric 0:03:49.800 --> 0:03:54.080 vector stretching out from my fingertips to the target. And 0:03:54.240 --> 0:03:59.440 isn't that actually so strange? Yeah, it reminds me of Futurama. 0:04:00.120 --> 0:04:03.920 Dr Farnsworth. One of his many inventions is the thing Longler, 0:04:04.280 --> 0:04:07.760 which is this, uh, basically just this super long finger 0:04:08.080 --> 0:04:10.920 that goes on your hand so you can you can 0:04:10.960 --> 0:04:14.240 touch things and point at things from from further away. 0:04:14.280 --> 0:04:16.760 But like, in a sense, pointing is the thing Longler. 0:04:17.080 --> 0:04:20.279 It is the original thing longer. Uh and so you 0:04:20.320 --> 0:04:22.240 know it's it's that's one of the things that makes 0:04:22.279 --> 0:04:25.360 the invention of the thing Longer all the more ridiculous 0:04:25.400 --> 0:04:28.880 and uh and and comedic, because we already do this 0:04:29.000 --> 0:04:31.159 when we point at something, right, Yeah, we do it 0:04:31.160 --> 0:04:35.360 through the imagination and it's there. There's a constant triangulation 0:04:35.480 --> 0:04:38.760 that that goes on when you're engaging in pointing between 0:04:38.760 --> 0:04:41.520 the pointer and the the audience and then the thing 0:04:41.600 --> 0:04:44.000 being pointed at. It's one of the reasons that, in 0:04:44.040 --> 0:04:47.960 a in a weird kind of way, laser pointers, like 0:04:48.000 --> 0:04:50.839 as used in classrooms always felt kind of crass and 0:04:50.960 --> 0:04:53.000 unholy to me. I think I didn't pick up on 0:04:53.080 --> 0:04:55.599 the reasoning at the time, But you know, what is 0:04:55.640 --> 0:04:58.440 it that seems kind of like just gross about using 0:04:58.480 --> 0:05:02.000 a laser pointer to point at ings on a projector chalkboard. 0:05:02.400 --> 0:05:06.200 It's like you're eliminating the triangle now, the indication is 0:05:06.240 --> 0:05:09.560 all just happening at the thing you're looking at. You know. 0:05:09.640 --> 0:05:12.320 I never thought that way about laser pointers. I guess 0:05:12.320 --> 0:05:14.120 I always had they were kind of neat because my 0:05:14.279 --> 0:05:17.160 comparison was always the Terminator films, where he had the 0:05:17.240 --> 0:05:21.440 laser side on a gun. So anytime anytime a teacher 0:05:21.520 --> 0:05:23.839 busted out a laser pointer, I was just like, oh, 0:05:23.960 --> 0:05:28.599 it's like Terminator, this is awesome. I guess I would 0:05:28.640 --> 0:05:30.880 have gone more to Predator because Predator has got a 0:05:30.920 --> 0:05:33.440 laser pointer two right. Oh yeah, it's got the triple 0:05:33.640 --> 0:05:37.919 laser pointer um, which is also awesome. But but I 0:05:37.920 --> 0:05:40.720 think I think my first exposure to the technology was 0:05:40.760 --> 0:05:44.880 the laser site that the Terminator uses. Oh you know, 0:05:44.960 --> 0:05:47.839 in fact, the Predator takes this elimination of the third 0:05:47.920 --> 0:05:51.400 party in the triangle, uh, to to the ultimate extreme 0:05:51.440 --> 0:05:54.440 because he's got the invisibility cloak on while he projects 0:05:54.440 --> 0:05:56.880 the laser pointer, so you can't even see him. It's 0:05:57.000 --> 0:06:00.520 just the dots. Yeah. Well, here's the subjective mind cirtation. 0:06:00.640 --> 0:06:03.080 I'm gonna be taking a few months off to write that, 0:06:03.760 --> 0:06:05.880 but anyway, so I want to come back and think 0:06:05.920 --> 0:06:09.200 about the sort of instinctual grammar of the gesture, of 0:06:09.240 --> 0:06:12.760 how the pointing gesture is applied and how much we 0:06:12.839 --> 0:06:16.000 can communicate with it, often without saying anything at all. 0:06:16.680 --> 0:06:20.400 So maybe the most basic is that you can use pointing, 0:06:20.440 --> 0:06:23.040 of course, to indicate a place you know, you gesture 0:06:23.120 --> 0:06:26.320 and it causes the audience to look there or to 0:06:26.440 --> 0:06:30.039 be suggested to go there. Beyond that, you can indicate 0:06:30.120 --> 0:06:33.360 something that you want right, like imagine a child asking 0:06:33.400 --> 0:06:36.400 for a toy, or imagine, uh, even an adult like 0:06:36.440 --> 0:06:38.919 picking out a food item from behind glass at a 0:06:38.960 --> 0:06:42.920 cafe without any words, just point. And in fact, I 0:06:42.920 --> 0:06:46.719 think this highlights a distinction that comes up when experts 0:06:46.760 --> 0:06:50.440 talk about pointing as an acquired skill in childhood development. 0:06:51.200 --> 0:06:54.920 According to a twelve paper in the journal Cognitive Science 0:06:55.000 --> 0:06:59.520 by Lisztkowski, at all, in every human culture where we've 0:06:59.560 --> 0:07:04.000 ever at this question. With a few neurological exceptions. Human 0:07:04.080 --> 0:07:07.800 infants begin to point at between nine to fourteen months. 0:07:07.800 --> 0:07:10.520 This is often average to say about one year of age, 0:07:10.600 --> 0:07:13.680 but like nine to fourteen months is the average, and 0:07:13.880 --> 0:07:19.080 the authors here called pointing a pre linguistic gestural universal. 0:07:19.200 --> 0:07:22.520 It appears that every culture does it, and children acquire 0:07:22.560 --> 0:07:26.520 it very early, generally before speech. Yeah. Yeah, and it's 0:07:27.120 --> 0:07:30.000 I've also seen it referred to as like what the 0:07:30.040 --> 0:07:34.680 golden road to language because and having having you know, 0:07:34.800 --> 0:07:38.720 had a child that it couldn't speak yet. Uh. This 0:07:38.800 --> 0:07:40.480 is one of the primary ways the child can of 0:07:40.520 --> 0:07:44.520 course acquire the things it wants. Point at it and 0:07:44.520 --> 0:07:46.360 it will be you know, given unto you, or it 0:07:46.360 --> 0:07:48.520 will be denied you, and you know, a lot of 0:07:48.520 --> 0:07:52.920 emotions will result. But also it's it's key in helping 0:07:52.960 --> 0:07:55.800 them acquire language because then we can point at things 0:07:56.360 --> 0:07:59.160 and let them know what the name is for that, 0:07:59.200 --> 0:08:03.160 what word is associated with that thing. Uh. So it's 0:08:03.200 --> 0:08:06.440 it's very important in both ways, not only their use 0:08:06.520 --> 0:08:10.400 of the point, but their understanding of pointing and others. Yeah, 0:08:10.440 --> 0:08:14.520 I think this is a fantastic point. Like if oh man, 0:08:14.560 --> 0:08:18.680 we're gonna have so many like pun not in writing 0:08:18.760 --> 0:08:21.600 point like. Then this author makes the point of saying, no, 0:08:21.800 --> 0:08:23.880 they can't do. I know, I was trying to take 0:08:23.920 --> 0:08:25.560 it out of all my notes, but I don't think 0:08:25.560 --> 0:08:28.160 I caught them all, and I'm gonna improvise a few 0:08:28.240 --> 0:08:31.840 horrible ones as we go on, so I apologize in advance. Um. 0:08:31.880 --> 0:08:35.800 But yeah, but I think this is a fantastic uh 0:08:34.720 --> 0:08:39.160 uh suggestion you make here about it being the bridge 0:08:39.160 --> 0:08:43.440 to language and uh in serving this mediating role because 0:08:43.480 --> 0:08:46.839 in childhood development there appear to be two very importantly 0:08:47.040 --> 0:08:51.240 different types of pointing, and these are known as imperative 0:08:51.320 --> 0:08:56.520 pointing versus declarative pointing. So to sort those out, imperative 0:08:56.520 --> 0:08:59.559 pointing is usually acquired earlier. It comes first, And to 0:08:59.679 --> 0:09:03.280 quote a two thousand four paper by Lund University philosopher 0:09:03.440 --> 0:09:09.320 Ingar brink Um, she says a quote, imperative pointing involves 0:09:09.360 --> 0:09:13.480 a conception of the other as a self propelling, causal 0:09:13.520 --> 0:09:17.880 agent that one can influence to do something for oneself 0:09:17.920 --> 0:09:22.000 by gesturing. So imperative pointing is typified by the give 0:09:22.080 --> 0:09:24.800 me that pointing. This kind of pointing tends to come 0:09:24.840 --> 0:09:29.160 first where you it's a kind of ritualized retrieving activity. 0:09:29.240 --> 0:09:33.080 You point toward the thing you want to cause the agent, 0:09:33.160 --> 0:09:36.080 generally the adult, to give it to you. But then 0:09:36.200 --> 0:09:38.840 what follows from that is to pick up again from 0:09:38.880 --> 0:09:42.280 from brinks writing a declarative pointing. On the other hand, 0:09:42.280 --> 0:09:46.320 declarative pointing is defined as the pre verbal effort to 0:09:46.480 --> 0:09:50.760 direct the adults attention to some event or object in 0:09:50.800 --> 0:09:53.960 the world. Uh. And this thing I was quoting from 0:09:54.000 --> 0:09:56.960 was published in Cognitive Science Quarterly in two thousand four. 0:09:57.240 --> 0:10:01.520 So whereas the imperative pointing is typified give me that pointing, 0:10:01.520 --> 0:10:05.480 you're trying to affect the adult to do an action 0:10:05.679 --> 0:10:09.720 to bring you something or something like that, the declarative 0:10:09.760 --> 0:10:13.360 pointing comes later and is characterized as look at that pointing. 0:10:13.760 --> 0:10:18.640 It's an explicit attempt to control someone else's attention. Yeah, 0:10:18.840 --> 0:10:21.400 and I think it is key. I noticed a number 0:10:21.480 --> 0:10:24.520 of of authors who are looking at here talking about 0:10:24.559 --> 0:10:29.120 pointing not merely as suggestion but is in but as control, 0:10:29.480 --> 0:10:33.839 as demanding of intention, commanding of intention. And I think 0:10:33.880 --> 0:10:36.160 that's important because we, you know, we're often kind of 0:10:36.240 --> 0:10:38.280 even if we we're thinking about pointing at things with 0:10:38.280 --> 0:10:40.680 our finger, which is will discussed later, is is you know, 0:10:40.720 --> 0:10:44.240 often thought of as being perhaps less than polite. Uh, 0:10:44.679 --> 0:10:48.160 sometimes we're very polite in our analysis of of what 0:10:48.200 --> 0:10:50.200 it is to point. And I do think when we 0:10:50.320 --> 0:10:52.760 when we are engaging in this kind of pointing, there 0:10:52.840 --> 0:10:55.360 is a there is a force behind it, there is 0:10:55.440 --> 0:10:59.320 a demand, there is a control. Like it is, I 0:10:59.320 --> 0:11:01.640 mean when it when as anyone ever pointed at something 0:11:01.760 --> 0:11:05.200 and and and you find yourself not following that finger 0:11:05.320 --> 0:11:09.040 to the to the object that they're referring to, like 0:11:09.120 --> 0:11:11.960 we cannot help it. I think you're exactly correct. And 0:11:12.000 --> 0:11:15.640 the idea that pointing, much like language, once you've acquired 0:11:15.760 --> 0:11:19.760 the ability to understand these gestures or these signs or symbols, 0:11:20.480 --> 0:11:24.160 it becomes not just an invitation to engage in communication 0:11:24.200 --> 0:11:28.240 with someone, but it's it's irresistible. The same way that 0:11:28.280 --> 0:11:32.840 if I say orangutan, you have no choice. But now 0:11:32.880 --> 0:11:35.559 I said that word and an orangutan came into your mind, 0:11:35.880 --> 0:11:38.280 and you didn't have the ability to say no, I 0:11:38.440 --> 0:11:41.719 won't process that word, and I won't think of an orangutan. 0:11:41.800 --> 0:11:43.880 It just happens, whether you want it to or not. 0:11:44.600 --> 0:11:46.600 The same thing appears to be true, or at least 0:11:46.800 --> 0:11:50.680 pretty pretty close to us true with pointing, whereas you know, 0:11:50.840 --> 0:11:54.360 it's just this totally irresistible thing you cannot help but 0:11:54.440 --> 0:11:57.760 imagine when somebody points that vector coming out of their 0:11:57.800 --> 0:12:00.720 hand and have your attention thus lead direct did Yeah, 0:12:00.760 --> 0:12:03.360 you're like, oh my goodness, that guy does have two 0:12:03.400 --> 0:12:07.160 thumbs and he loves to party. Granted, that's thumb pointing, 0:12:07.240 --> 0:12:10.360 but but I think a similar effect takes place. Well, yeah, 0:12:10.400 --> 0:12:12.800 I don't know. So while index finger pointing, and we'll 0:12:12.800 --> 0:12:14.640 talk more about this as we go on. While index 0:12:14.720 --> 0:12:17.439 finger pointing does appear to be very common around the world, 0:12:17.440 --> 0:12:19.800 there there are tons of different kinds of pointing. It 0:12:19.840 --> 0:12:22.040 doesn't have to be the index finger. It's whatever you 0:12:22.240 --> 0:12:24.760 part of your body you use to indicate a vector 0:12:25.160 --> 0:12:28.080 to direct somebody's attention. We're gonna look at one study 0:12:28.160 --> 0:12:32.880 about a very interesting type of nose pointing. But just 0:12:32.920 --> 0:12:35.200 to come back to the power of pointing, I think 0:12:35.280 --> 0:12:37.120 one thing that's very interesting is that you can go 0:12:37.160 --> 0:12:39.320 beyond all this that we've already talked about. They'll like, 0:12:39.360 --> 0:12:41.559 you know, look at that, go there, give me that 0:12:41.640 --> 0:12:45.880 kind of pointing. One utility that's extremely versatile is that 0:12:45.960 --> 0:12:50.760 you can also use pointing to slot in concepts to 0:12:50.960 --> 0:12:56.200 build sentences within an implied structure or grammar. So easy 0:12:56.200 --> 0:12:58.480 way of conceptualizing this is think about the different ways 0:12:58.520 --> 0:13:02.200 that pointing can be used. If you're playing charades, you 0:13:02.240 --> 0:13:05.839 can point at something to indicate that that thing you're 0:13:05.880 --> 0:13:09.760 pointing at is the subject of a phrase or that 0:13:09.920 --> 0:13:12.640 is similar to the subject of a phrase. You can 0:13:12.800 --> 0:13:16.720 point at something to suggest that it's state or activity 0:13:16.880 --> 0:13:20.040 or properties fills the role of a verb or an 0:13:20.080 --> 0:13:23.360 adjective in a target phrase. And then you can even 0:13:23.440 --> 0:13:25.960 you can like point at a player to indicate that 0:13:26.000 --> 0:13:28.199 the guests they've just made is correct or on the 0:13:28.320 --> 0:13:31.720 right track. It's an affirmation. So you can essentially you 0:13:31.760 --> 0:13:34.440 can build a grammar, you can build a lexicon, you 0:13:34.480 --> 0:13:38.920 can build whole sentences out of just pointing gestures interacting 0:13:38.920 --> 0:13:41.880 with the world and with other people. Absolutely, Now I 0:13:41.880 --> 0:13:44.880 want to cite one of my main sources in this episode. 0:13:44.880 --> 0:13:47.560 I was looking around for research on on pointing, and 0:13:47.640 --> 0:13:49.520 one thing I found that was very helpful was a 0:13:49.559 --> 0:13:54.839 really interesting presentation given at a conference at u c 0:13:55.080 --> 0:13:59.240 l A by a you see San Diego cognitive scientists 0:13:59.320 --> 0:14:02.640 named Kin's Cooper, writer who has done a lot of 0:14:02.679 --> 0:14:05.959 research on pointing, and he he gave this presentation at 0:14:05.960 --> 0:14:08.920 this conference that I found video of online called fifteen 0:14:08.920 --> 0:14:11.640 ways of looking at a pointing gesture, And so he 0:14:11.679 --> 0:14:14.960 collected a few more examples of ways that pointing can 0:14:15.080 --> 0:14:18.280 work as a kind of communicative work course. He calls 0:14:18.320 --> 0:14:21.760 it uh that that it just has this incredible power 0:14:21.920 --> 0:14:25.280 in in communication. Like he cites a couple of studies 0:14:25.320 --> 0:14:29.800 from two thousand eleven and finding that more than sixty 0:14:29.880 --> 0:14:34.120 percent of all gestures were pointing gestures. And so he 0:14:34.200 --> 0:14:36.600 goes on to to analyze this question of like, well, 0:14:36.680 --> 0:14:41.040 why is pointing so pervasive them? Why is pointing you know, 0:14:41.200 --> 0:14:43.600 sixty percent or more of all the gestures we do? 0:14:43.720 --> 0:14:45.760 Why doesn't we let it take over so much of 0:14:45.760 --> 0:14:48.920 our communication? And I think he makes some very good points. 0:14:49.200 --> 0:14:52.520 One is that pointing is incredibly efficient. It seems to 0:14:52.520 --> 0:14:56.560 cut out a huge amount of excess communication in terms 0:14:56.600 --> 0:15:00.320 of number of words needed or other gestures that would 0:15:00.320 --> 0:15:03.360 be needed to communicate something. Pointing often has the effect 0:15:03.400 --> 0:15:05.760 of cutting right to the chase of whatever it is 0:15:05.800 --> 0:15:07.800 you're trying to communicate. Yeah, and you can you can 0:15:07.800 --> 0:15:09.320 get a taste for this if you've ever been in 0:15:09.320 --> 0:15:14.280 a situation where, uh, you absolutely cannot point at someone 0:15:14.400 --> 0:15:18.960 or something, but you wish to, through just language, bring 0:15:19.080 --> 0:15:22.600 somebody else's attention to it. Um. It can you often 0:15:22.600 --> 0:15:25.880 find that it is as a drawn out process, and 0:15:25.960 --> 0:15:28.440 it can feel maddening. Like if if you're in a 0:15:28.480 --> 0:15:31.280 situation where you want to indicate something and you can't 0:15:31.400 --> 0:15:35.400 point at it, it feels like you're losing your mind. Yeah, Like, say, 0:15:35.560 --> 0:15:38.920 Kevin Bacon just walked into the same um Burger king 0:15:39.520 --> 0:15:42.080 that you're where you're dining, and you know it would 0:15:42.120 --> 0:15:44.760 be wrong to point at Kevin Bacon, but you really 0:15:44.800 --> 0:15:49.600 want your you're dining um accomplix here too, to know 0:15:50.040 --> 0:15:51.880 that Kevin Bacon is here. Like, what can you do? 0:15:51.960 --> 0:15:53.560 You have to say, all right, look, don't freak out 0:15:53.640 --> 0:15:56.400 or anything, but I want you to Okay, look where 0:15:56.400 --> 0:15:59.160 I just looked. Okay, now look over there again. See that? 0:15:59.320 --> 0:16:01.240 Do you see who I'm looking at? It gets yeah, 0:16:01.240 --> 0:16:05.080 it gets tedious fast. Yeah. Um. So another thing that 0:16:05.360 --> 0:16:08.400 Cooper writer says is that pointing is highly flexible. We've 0:16:08.400 --> 0:16:11.240 already explored this and you're talking about the charades example. 0:16:11.320 --> 0:16:13.840 But um, but you know, he points out that it's 0:16:13.880 --> 0:16:17.280 not just to direct somebody's attention to, you know, a 0:16:17.400 --> 0:16:19.640 thing you want them to look at. It can indicate 0:16:19.680 --> 0:16:23.640 things abstract or imagined. Uh that there's one example that 0:16:23.840 --> 0:16:25.960 we can look at when we look at some paintings 0:16:25.960 --> 0:16:29.680 earlier of da Vinci's John the Baptist pointing up to 0:16:29.760 --> 0:16:32.840 Heaven in his paintings. Now that is an Yeah, this 0:16:32.880 --> 0:16:36.320 is an interesting idea. It's like the pointing up um. 0:16:37.520 --> 0:16:42.240 You see this occasionally used in art, in in various 0:16:42.280 --> 0:16:45.400 other gestures. And we we tend not to follow the 0:16:45.440 --> 0:16:47.640 point that, you know, their fingerpoint. We're not looking up 0:16:47.680 --> 0:16:49.720 to see what are they pointing at? Like there's the 0:16:50.480 --> 0:16:53.520 especially if their gaze is also not skyward. And so 0:16:53.680 --> 0:16:58.119 pointing appears to be highly effective, highly efficient, highly versatile 0:16:58.560 --> 0:17:02.720 as communication. It really works. Children pick it up and 0:17:02.800 --> 0:17:07.080 understand it very early early on. Apparently there's evidence that 0:17:07.160 --> 0:17:10.200 they put more weight on pointing based communication than they 0:17:10.200 --> 0:17:13.439 do on words. And as we were talking about earlier, 0:17:13.520 --> 0:17:17.760 you know, adults are it's almost impossible to ignore pointing. 0:17:18.040 --> 0:17:20.600 When somebody points, you just look and it has this 0:17:20.720 --> 0:17:25.119 like capture over your brain that is somewhat involuntary. But 0:17:25.200 --> 0:17:28.680 there is also a strange way in which pointing takes 0:17:28.680 --> 0:17:32.480 on a kind of mystical or magical power that transcends 0:17:32.640 --> 0:17:37.720 mere informative or imperative indication, where pointing seems to uh 0:17:37.760 --> 0:17:41.840 to suggest things about relationships that that feel like they 0:17:41.880 --> 0:17:44.879 go deep and they carry emotional heft or they carry 0:17:45.359 --> 0:17:48.359 spiritual indication. So I think maybe next week we should 0:17:48.359 --> 0:17:52.520 look at uh strange and mystical pointing and a few paintings. 0:17:52.920 --> 0:17:58.720 All right, but first let's take a quick break than alright, 0:17:58.720 --> 0:18:00.640 we're back, all right, So we were gonna look at 0:18:00.760 --> 0:18:05.760 uh strange mystical kinds of significance that pointing seems to 0:18:05.800 --> 0:18:08.680 have in a lot of great works of art. Uh. 0:18:08.720 --> 0:18:11.200 You know, one thing that I was mentioning this presentation 0:18:11.240 --> 0:18:14.120 by Kensey Cooper writer earlier, and one thing he does 0:18:14.160 --> 0:18:16.720 mention in his presentation is the idea of Leonardo da 0:18:16.800 --> 0:18:20.439 Vinci and uh and pointing in his paintings. And so 0:18:20.480 --> 0:18:22.840 I was reading part of a book by Walter Isaacson 0:18:22.880 --> 0:18:25.040 about Da Vinci's life where he's got a chapter that 0:18:25.160 --> 0:18:27.840 deals a lot with like a phase towards the end 0:18:27.920 --> 0:18:30.439 of Leonardo da Vinci's life where it seems like he 0:18:30.520 --> 0:18:33.320 was painting a lot of stuff that had pointing in it. 0:18:33.880 --> 0:18:36.800 One great example is the painting Saint John the Baptist, 0:18:36.840 --> 0:18:40.760 which was painted some time between fifteen thirteen and fifteen sixteen. Yeah, 0:18:40.800 --> 0:18:44.720 this is a very interesting um portrait here of John 0:18:44.720 --> 0:18:47.840 the Baptist. For for one thing, it is it's if 0:18:47.880 --> 0:18:50.840 you haven't seen it, whatever you're imagining, Uh, for a 0:18:50.960 --> 0:18:53.520 John the Baptist portrait like this is not it like 0:18:53.600 --> 0:18:56.200 you tend to think of Like when I said, think 0:18:56.200 --> 0:18:57.879 of art that had John the Baptist in it, I 0:18:57.920 --> 0:19:00.479 tend to think of like I bearded head that has 0:19:00.480 --> 0:19:03.359 been cut away from John the Baptist body. You know, 0:19:04.080 --> 0:19:06.640 I tend to think that sort of imagery. And this 0:19:06.760 --> 0:19:12.959 is um a very androgynous image of of of a 0:19:13.000 --> 0:19:18.080 more youthful again androgynous figure. Uh. And it's and he's pointing, 0:19:18.440 --> 0:19:21.040 but he and he's pointing up, but he's not pointing 0:19:21.119 --> 0:19:23.040 up in a way like hey, I'm about to go 0:19:23.119 --> 0:19:25.000 fly in the sky, or hey I think it's gonna 0:19:25.080 --> 0:19:28.080 rain up there. There's a kind of a curve to 0:19:28.280 --> 0:19:32.600 his hand, almost as if he is bending space. Like 0:19:32.680 --> 0:19:37.600 he's like he's pointing not into something within our observable 0:19:37.600 --> 0:19:42.760 physical dimensions, but into some hidden dimension. Yeah, it's very 0:19:42.800 --> 0:19:45.760 strange and interesting painting. I mean, one thing beyond what 0:19:45.800 --> 0:19:48.920 you're saying is that the expression on John the Baptist 0:19:49.000 --> 0:19:53.360 face here is undeniably flirty. Yeah, like like it's being 0:19:53.520 --> 0:19:57.920 very suggestively playful with the viewer. Um. And and so 0:19:57.960 --> 0:20:02.080 he's pointing up like this. The pointing is very clearly 0:20:02.160 --> 0:20:04.399 the center of the painting. It's what the eye is 0:20:04.440 --> 0:20:08.400 immediately drawn to, and it's the gesture. And the painting 0:20:08.640 --> 0:20:14.560 is so overt it almost suggests additional obscure meanings beyond 0:20:14.680 --> 0:20:18.120 the direct reference to John the Baptist biblical role. I mean, 0:20:18.160 --> 0:20:20.800 one way of understanding it is very straightforward is John 0:20:20.840 --> 0:20:23.920 the Baptist and the Gospels. As you know, I'm here 0:20:23.960 --> 0:20:26.360 to to prepare the way of the Lord. I'm here 0:20:26.359 --> 0:20:30.040 to you know, turn people's eyes towards God. But I 0:20:30.040 --> 0:20:32.680 don't know, it seems like there must be something else 0:20:32.760 --> 0:20:36.159 going on. The pointing feels like a spell being cast. 0:20:36.800 --> 0:20:40.080 It does, it really does. I definitely recommend everyone check 0:20:40.160 --> 0:20:42.200 this one out to just really understand what we're talking 0:20:42.240 --> 0:20:45.280 about here. Um and I do agree there is this 0:20:45.400 --> 0:20:49.480 kind of flirty aspect to Um. The countenance of John 0:20:49.480 --> 0:20:52.040 the Baptist. Here. I've read that this image in particular 0:20:52.119 --> 0:20:54.200 is often brought up as an example of da Vinci's 0:20:54.359 --> 0:20:57.760 homo erotic leanings in his art um though mainly again 0:20:57.800 --> 0:21:01.119 for this soft and and androgynist nature of the betrayal, 0:21:01.640 --> 0:21:04.720 not so much anything with the pointing. Yeah, but it's 0:21:04.800 --> 0:21:07.720 fantastic painting either way. It's wonderful to look at, and 0:21:08.000 --> 0:21:11.680 so there's tons of pointing all throughout da Vinci. Actually, 0:21:11.840 --> 0:21:14.440 uh so, you know da Vinci's famous fresco The Last 0:21:14.480 --> 0:21:17.800 Supper depicting the final meal between Jesus and his disciples. 0:21:18.040 --> 0:21:20.000 If you actually look at the detail of it, it's 0:21:20.040 --> 0:21:22.879 crammed with pointing. I think at least four or five 0:21:23.000 --> 0:21:27.000 of the disciples are arguably engaging in some kind of 0:21:27.040 --> 0:21:29.720 pointing in this in this work of art. Yeah. Yeah, 0:21:29.760 --> 0:21:31.760 this is a really interesting painting to touch on because 0:21:31.760 --> 0:21:34.240 we've we've largely discussed pointing is more or less as 0:21:34.320 --> 0:21:37.640 singular though multipurpose gesture. But in this painting we see 0:21:37.680 --> 0:21:41.119 just a lot of general gesticulation, a lot of characters 0:21:41.320 --> 0:21:44.800 clearly talking with their hands. We have this cool way 0:21:44.840 --> 0:21:49.520 as humans of of treating linguistic concepts like physical concepts 0:21:49.560 --> 0:21:53.479 like waves or fluids, you know, like like our words 0:21:53.720 --> 0:21:56.520 or something in the air that can then be like 0:21:56.680 --> 0:21:59.639 fluffed up or or pushed towards the person that is 0:21:59.640 --> 0:22:01.919 going to hear them. Oh, and that comes through in 0:22:01.960 --> 0:22:04.119 another gesture you see in this painting, which is the 0:22:04.240 --> 0:22:08.199 raised hands defensive posture. I don't remember which disciple that is, 0:22:08.200 --> 0:22:11.440 but one of the disciples has the hands up, palms 0:22:11.480 --> 0:22:14.120 out in you know, it's as a gesture we all 0:22:14.160 --> 0:22:18.119 recognize as the like hey, back off gesture, which is 0:22:18.160 --> 0:22:21.240 often used to deflect pointing. You know, if you get 0:22:21.280 --> 0:22:23.800 if you start pointing a finger at somebody, and we're 0:22:23.800 --> 0:22:26.680 about to talk a bit more about taboos and aggressive pointing, 0:22:26.720 --> 0:22:29.280 but you start pointing a finger at somebody, what do 0:22:29.320 --> 0:22:31.320 they often do the hands go up as if to 0:22:31.440 --> 0:22:36.080 like defend from an incoming lance. Absolutely, yeah. But one 0:22:36.119 --> 0:22:38.760