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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of My

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Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind.

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Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. And

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Speaker 1: today I wanted to talk a bit about pointing. I

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Speaker 1: think the episodes that we recently did on Medusa really

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Speaker 1: got me in the mind to think about the power

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Speaker 1: of pointing with a finger, because when we talked about

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Speaker 1: Medusa recently, you know, we ended up spending a lot

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Speaker 1: of time thinking about like what what a gaze means,

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Speaker 1: What it means, you know, to imagine this kind of

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Speaker 1: ray emerging from the eyes as you look at someone,

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Speaker 1: and the and the mystical power that ancient people seem

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Speaker 1: to think that had. But there's a counterpart to that,

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Speaker 1: which is the pointing finger or the pointing hand. It

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Speaker 1: almost seems like it's the sort of celestial twin of

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Speaker 1: the of the powerful gaze. Yeah, and if you if

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Speaker 1: you followed us in those Medusa episodes and and followed

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Speaker 1: our discussion of of what it is to gaze, it's

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Speaker 1: something to be gazed at. To have our you know,

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Speaker 1: attention focused in such a way, then I think you

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Speaker 1: you have a you're in a better place to then contemplate,

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Speaker 1: uh pointing this, uh, this extra layer of complexity with

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Speaker 1: human attention. Yeah, I agree. So in fact, I would say,

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Speaker 1: you know, if you haven't listened to our Medusa episodes yet,

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Speaker 1: you'll probably get more out of this one if you

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Speaker 1: go and listen to those first. Though you don't have

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Speaker 1: to write, I would recommend it. So yeah, let's get

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Speaker 1: right into it. Uh. In the spirit this is actually

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Speaker 1: one of my favorite things to do on the show,

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Speaker 1: is just to take something that's so familiar it's invisible

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Speaker 1: to us and try to figure out again what's strange

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Speaker 1: about it that. That's where I want to start with

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Speaker 1: pointing um, because I think it's easy to miss how

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Speaker 1: weird and versatile and ingenious the pointing gesture is. It's

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Speaker 1: one of those miracles of nature that the usually remains

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Speaker 1: invisible to us until it fails. I love how the

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Speaker 1: brain works like that, like you don't see it until

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Speaker 1: it doesn't work, because it almost always works. And one

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Speaker 1: of the ways for me that it fails most often

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Speaker 1: is when I try to use it with my dog.

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Speaker 1: Now there is evidence actually, and we can talk about

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Speaker 1: this later in the episode, that sometimes domestic dogs can

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Speaker 1: understand pointing gestures, and I was testing it out a

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Speaker 1: good bit with my dog Charlie the other day. I

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Speaker 1: would say, occasionally he sort of seems to to to

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Speaker 1: follow a pointing gesture, but it's very rare. Most of

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Speaker 1: the time he definitely does not get it. And when

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Speaker 1: I extend my finger to point something out to him,

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Speaker 1: Charlie doesn't look in the direction that I'm pointing. He

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Speaker 1: looks at my hand because I think most of the time,

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Speaker 1: to to him and his dog's brain, there is no

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Speaker 1: such thing as pointing. The outstretched hand and finger is

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Speaker 1: simply a currently active part of my body I might

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Speaker 1: be about to use. Is it to feed him or

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Speaker 1: to pet him, you know, activities that interest him, but

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Speaker 1: the activity does not seem to indicate anything beyond my body.

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Speaker 1: And it's this kind of failure that makes you appreciate

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Speaker 1: how strange and amazing pointing actually is. Uh So, probably

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Speaker 1: the most basic definition of pointing, I would say, is

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Speaker 1: it's a movement of the body in the direction of

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Speaker 1: a target that draws the attention of an audience to

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Speaker 1: that target. But beyond that, I think it's also interesting

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Speaker 1: because pointing projects the reach of the body in imaginary space.

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Speaker 1: I can extend my hand and instantly cause you, not

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Speaker 1: not just invite you to, but sort of cause you,

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Speaker 1: even against your own will, to imagine an invisible geometric

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Speaker 1: vector stretching out from my fingertips to the target. And

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Speaker 1: isn't that actually so strange? Yeah, it reminds me of Futurama.

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Speaker 1: Dr Farnsworth. One of his many inventions is the thing Longler,

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Speaker 1: which is this, uh, basically just this super long finger

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Speaker 1: that goes on your hand so you can you can

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Speaker 1: touch things and point at things from from further away.

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Speaker 1: But like, in a sense, pointing is the thing Longler.

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Speaker 1: It is the original thing longer. Uh and so you

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Speaker 1: know it's it's that's one of the things that makes

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Speaker 1: the invention of the thing Longer all the more ridiculous

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Speaker 1: and uh and and comedic, because we already do this

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Speaker 1: when we point at something, right, Yeah, we do it

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Speaker 1: through the imagination and it's there. There's a constant triangulation

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Speaker 1: that that goes on when you're engaging in pointing between

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Speaker 1: the pointer and the the audience and then the thing

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Speaker 1: being pointed at. It's one of the reasons that, in

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Speaker 1: a in a weird kind of way, laser pointers, like

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Speaker 1: as used in classrooms always felt kind of crass and

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Speaker 1: unholy to me. I think I didn't pick up on

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Speaker 1: the reasoning at the time, But you know, what is

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Speaker 1: it that seems kind of like just gross about using

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Speaker 1: a laser pointer to point at ings on a projector chalkboard.

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Speaker 1: It's like you're eliminating the triangle now, the indication is

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Speaker 1: all just happening at the thing you're looking at. You know.

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Speaker 1: I never thought that way about laser pointers. I guess

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Speaker 1: I always had they were kind of neat because my

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Speaker 1: comparison was always the Terminator films, where he had the

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Speaker 1: laser side on a gun. So anytime anytime a teacher

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Speaker 1: busted out a laser pointer, I was just like, oh,

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Speaker 1: it's like Terminator, this is awesome. I guess I would

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Speaker 1: have gone more to Predator because Predator has got a

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Speaker 1: laser pointer two right. Oh yeah, it's got the triple

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Speaker 1: laser pointer um, which is also awesome. But but I

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Speaker 1: think I think my first exposure to the technology was

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Speaker 1: the laser site that the Terminator uses. Oh you know,

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Speaker 1: in fact, the Predator takes this elimination of the third

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Speaker 1: party in the triangle, uh, to to the ultimate extreme

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Speaker 1: because he's got the invisibility cloak on while he projects

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Speaker 1: the laser pointer, so you can't even see him. It's

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Speaker 1: just the dots. Yeah. Well, here's the subjective mind cirtation.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna be taking a few months off to write that,

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Speaker 1: but anyway, so I want to come back and think

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Speaker 1: about the sort of instinctual grammar of the gesture, of

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Speaker 1: how the pointing gesture is applied and how much we

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Speaker 1: can communicate with it, often without saying anything at all.

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Speaker 1: So maybe the most basic is that you can use pointing,

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Speaker 1: of course, to indicate a place you know, you gesture

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Speaker 1: and it causes the audience to look there or to

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Speaker 1: be suggested to go there. Beyond that, you can indicate

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Speaker 1: something that you want right, like imagine a child asking

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Speaker 1: for a toy, or imagine, uh, even an adult like

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Speaker 1: picking out a food item from behind glass at a

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Speaker 1: cafe without any words, just point. And in fact, I

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Speaker 1: think this highlights a distinction that comes up when experts

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Speaker 1: talk about pointing as an acquired skill in childhood development.

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Speaker 1: According to a twelve paper in the journal Cognitive Science

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Speaker 1: by Lisztkowski, at all, in every human culture where we've

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Speaker 1: ever at this question. With a few neurological exceptions. Human

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Speaker 1: infants begin to point at between nine to fourteen months.

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Speaker 1: This is often average to say about one year of age,

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Speaker 1: but like nine to fourteen months is the average, and

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Speaker 1: the authors here called pointing a pre linguistic gestural universal.

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Speaker 1: It appears that every culture does it, and children acquire

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Speaker 1: it very early, generally before speech. Yeah. Yeah, and it's

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Speaker 1: I've also seen it referred to as like what the

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Speaker 1: golden road to language because and having having you know,

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Speaker 1: had a child that it couldn't speak yet. Uh. This

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Speaker 1: is one of the primary ways the child can of

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Speaker 1: course acquire the things it wants. Point at it and

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Speaker 1: it will be you know, given unto you, or it

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Speaker 1: will be denied you, and you know, a lot of

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Speaker 1: emotions will result. But also it's it's key in helping

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Speaker 1: them acquire language because then we can point at things

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Speaker 1: and let them know what the name is for that,

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Speaker 1: what word is associated with that thing. Uh. So it's

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Speaker 1: it's very important in both ways, not only their use

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Speaker 1: of the point, but their understanding of pointing and others. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think this is a fantastic point. Like if oh man,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna have so many like pun not in writing

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Speaker 1: point like. Then this author makes the point of saying, no,

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Speaker 1: they can't do. I know, I was trying to take

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Speaker 1: it out of all my notes, but I don't think

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Speaker 1: I caught them all, and I'm gonna improvise a few

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Speaker 1: horrible ones as we go on, so I apologize in advance. Um.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, but I think this is a fantastic uh

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Speaker 1: uh suggestion you make here about it being the bridge

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Speaker 1: to language and uh in serving this mediating role because

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Speaker 1: in childhood development there appear to be two very importantly

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Speaker 1: different types of pointing, and these are known as imperative

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Speaker 1: pointing versus declarative pointing. So to sort those out, imperative

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Speaker 1: pointing is usually acquired earlier. It comes first, And to

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Speaker 1: quote a two thousand four paper by Lund University philosopher

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Speaker 1: Ingar brink Um, she says a quote, imperative pointing involves

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Speaker 1: a conception of the other as a self propelling, causal

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Speaker 1: agent that one can influence to do something for oneself

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Speaker 1: by gesturing. So imperative pointing is typified by the give

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Speaker 1: me that pointing. This kind of pointing tends to come

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Speaker 1: first where you it's a kind of ritualized retrieving activity.

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Speaker 1: You point toward the thing you want to cause the agent,

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Speaker 1: generally the adult, to give it to you. But then

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Speaker 1: what follows from that is to pick up again from

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Speaker 1: from brinks writing a declarative pointing. On the other hand,

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Speaker 1: declarative pointing is defined as the pre verbal effort to

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Speaker 1: direct the adults attention to some event or object in

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Speaker 1: the world. Uh. And this thing I was quoting from

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Speaker 1: was published in Cognitive Science Quarterly in two thousand four.

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Speaker 1: So whereas the imperative pointing is typified give me that pointing,

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Speaker 1: you're trying to affect the adult to do an action

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Speaker 1: to bring you something or something like that, the declarative

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Speaker 1: pointing comes later and is characterized as look at that pointing.

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Speaker 1: It's an explicit attempt to control someone else's attention. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and I think it is key. I noticed a number

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Speaker 1: of of authors who are looking at here talking about

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Speaker 1: pointing not merely as suggestion but is in but as control,

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Speaker 1: as demanding of intention, commanding of intention. And I think

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Speaker 1: that's important because we, you know, we're often kind of

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Speaker 1: even if we we're thinking about pointing at things with

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Speaker 1: our finger, which is will discussed later, is is you know,

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Speaker 1: often thought of as being perhaps less than polite. Uh,

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Speaker 1: sometimes we're very polite in our analysis of of what

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Speaker 1: it is to point. And I do think when we

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Speaker 1: when we are engaging in this kind of pointing, there

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Speaker 1: is a there is a force behind it, there is

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Speaker 1: a demand, there is a control. Like it is, I

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Speaker 1: mean when it when as anyone ever pointed at something

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Speaker 1: and and and you find yourself not following that finger

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Speaker 1: to the to the object that they're referring to, like

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Speaker 1: we cannot help it. I think you're exactly correct. And

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Speaker 1: the idea that pointing, much like language, once you've acquired

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Speaker 1: the ability to understand these gestures or these signs or symbols,

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Speaker 1: it becomes not just an invitation to engage in communication

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Speaker 1: with someone, but it's it's irresistible. The same way that

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Speaker 1: if I say orangutan, you have no choice. But now

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Speaker 1: I said that word and an orangutan came into your mind,

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Speaker 1: and you didn't have the ability to say no, I

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Speaker 1: won't process that word, and I won't think of an orangutan.

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Speaker 1: It just happens, whether you want it to or not.

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Speaker 1: The same thing appears to be true, or at least

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Speaker 1: pretty pretty close to us true with pointing, whereas you know,

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Speaker 1: it's just this totally irresistible thing you cannot help but

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Speaker 1: imagine when somebody points that vector coming out of their

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Speaker 1: hand and have your attention thus lead direct did Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you're like, oh my goodness, that guy does have two

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Speaker 1: thumbs and he loves to party. Granted, that's thumb pointing,

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Speaker 1: but but I think a similar effect takes place. Well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I don't know. So while index finger pointing, and we'll

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Speaker 1: talk more about this as we go on. While index

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Speaker 1: finger pointing does appear to be very common around the world,

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Speaker 1: there there are tons of different kinds of pointing. It

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Speaker 1: doesn't have to be the index finger. It's whatever you

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Speaker 1: part of your body you use to indicate a vector

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Speaker 1: to direct somebody's attention. We're gonna look at one study

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Speaker 1: about a very interesting type of nose pointing. But just

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Speaker 1: to come back to the power of pointing, I think

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Speaker 1: one thing that's very interesting is that you can go

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Speaker 1: beyond all this that we've already talked about. They'll like,

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Speaker 1: you know, look at that, go there, give me that

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Speaker 1: kind of pointing. One utility that's extremely versatile is that

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Speaker 1: you can also use pointing to slot in concepts to

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Speaker 1: build sentences within an implied structure or grammar. So easy

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Speaker 1: way of conceptualizing this is think about the different ways

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Speaker 1: that pointing can be used. If you're playing charades, you

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Speaker 1: can point at something to indicate that that thing you're

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Speaker 1: pointing at is the subject of a phrase or that

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Speaker 1: is similar to the subject of a phrase. You can

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Speaker 1: point at something to suggest that it's state or activity

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Speaker 1: or properties fills the role of a verb or an

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Speaker 1: adjective in a target phrase. And then you can even

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Speaker 1: you can like point at a player to indicate that

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Speaker 1: the guests they've just made is correct or on the

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Speaker 1: right track. It's an affirmation. So you can essentially you

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Speaker 1: can build a grammar, you can build a lexicon, you

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Speaker 1: can build whole sentences out of just pointing gestures interacting

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Speaker 1: with the world and with other people. Absolutely, Now I

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Speaker 1: want to cite one of my main sources in this episode.

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Speaker 1: I was looking around for research on on pointing, and

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Speaker 1: one thing I found that was very helpful was a

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Speaker 1: really interesting presentation given at a conference at u c

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Speaker 1: l A by a you see San Diego cognitive scientists

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Speaker 1: named Kin's Cooper, writer who has done a lot of

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Speaker 1: research on pointing, and he he gave this presentation at

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Speaker 1: this conference that I found video of online called fifteen

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Speaker 1: ways of looking at a pointing gesture, And so he

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Speaker 1: collected a few more examples of ways that pointing can

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Speaker 1: work as a kind of communicative work course. He calls

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Speaker 1: it uh that that it just has this incredible power

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Speaker 1: in in communication. Like he cites a couple of studies

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Speaker 1: from two thousand eleven and finding that more than sixty

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Speaker 1: percent of all gestures were pointing gestures. And so he

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Speaker 1: goes on to to analyze this question of like, well,

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Speaker 1: why is pointing so pervasive them? Why is pointing you know,

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Speaker 1: sixty percent or more of all the gestures we do?

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Speaker 1: Why doesn't we let it take over so much of

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Speaker 1: our communication? And I think he makes some very good points.

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Speaker 1: One is that pointing is incredibly efficient. It seems to

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Speaker 1: cut out a huge amount of excess communication in terms

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Speaker 1: of number of words needed or other gestures that would

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Speaker 1: be needed to communicate something. Pointing often has the effect

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Speaker 1: of cutting right to the chase of whatever it is

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Speaker 1: you're trying to communicate. Yeah, and you can you can

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Speaker 1: get a taste for this if you've ever been in

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Speaker 1: a situation where, uh, you absolutely cannot point at someone

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Speaker 1: or something, but you wish to, through just language, bring

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Speaker 1: somebody else's attention to it. Um. It can you often

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Speaker 1: find that it is as a drawn out process, and

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Speaker 1: it can feel maddening. Like if if you're in a

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Speaker 1: situation where you want to indicate something and you can't

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Speaker 1: point at it, it feels like you're losing your mind. Yeah, Like, say,

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Speaker 1: Kevin Bacon just walked into the same um Burger king

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Speaker 1: that you're where you're dining, and you know it would

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Speaker 1: be wrong to point at Kevin Bacon, but you really

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Speaker 1: want your you're dining um accomplix here too, to know

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Speaker 1: that Kevin Bacon is here. Like, what can you do?

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Speaker 1: You have to say, all right, look, don't freak out

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Speaker 1: or anything, but I want you to Okay, look where

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Speaker 1: I just looked. Okay, now look over there again. See that?

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Speaker 1: Do you see who I'm looking at? It gets yeah,

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Speaker 1: it gets tedious fast. Yeah. Um. So another thing that

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Speaker 1: Cooper writer says is that pointing is highly flexible. We've

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Speaker 1: already explored this and you're talking about the charades example.

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Speaker 1: But um, but you know, he points out that it's

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Speaker 1: not just to direct somebody's attention to, you know, a

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Speaker 1: thing you want them to look at. It can indicate

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Speaker 1: things abstract or imagined. Uh that there's one example that

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Speaker 1: we can look at when we look at some paintings

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Speaker 1: earlier of da Vinci's John the Baptist pointing up to

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Speaker 1: Heaven in his paintings. Now that is an Yeah, this

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Speaker 1: is an interesting idea. It's like the pointing up um.

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Speaker 1: You see this occasionally used in art, in in various

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Speaker 1: other gestures. And we we tend not to follow the

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Speaker 1: point that, you know, their fingerpoint. We're not looking up

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Speaker 1: to see what are they pointing at? Like there's the

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Speaker 1: especially if their gaze is also not skyward. And so

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Speaker 1: pointing appears to be highly effective, highly efficient, highly versatile

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Speaker 1: as communication. It really works. Children pick it up and

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Speaker 1: understand it very early early on. Apparently there's evidence that

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Speaker 1: they put more weight on pointing based communication than they

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Speaker 1: do on words. And as we were talking about earlier,

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Speaker 1: you know, adults are it's almost impossible to ignore pointing.

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Speaker 1: When somebody points, you just look and it has this

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Speaker 1: like capture over your brain that is somewhat involuntary. But

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Speaker 1: there is also a strange way in which pointing takes

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Speaker 1: on a kind of mystical or magical power that transcends

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Speaker 1: mere informative or imperative indication, where pointing seems to uh

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Speaker 1: to suggest things about relationships that that feel like they

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Speaker 1: go deep and they carry emotional heft or they carry

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Speaker 1: spiritual indication. So I think maybe next week we should

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Speaker 1: look at uh strange and mystical pointing and a few paintings.

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Speaker 1: All right, but first let's take a quick break than alright,

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Speaker 1: we're back, all right, So we were gonna look at

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Speaker 1: uh strange mystical kinds of significance that pointing seems to

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Speaker 1: have in a lot of great works of art. Uh.

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Speaker 1: You know, one thing that I was mentioning this presentation

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Speaker 1: by Kensey Cooper writer earlier, and one thing he does

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Speaker 1: mention in his presentation is the idea of Leonardo da

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Speaker 1: Vinci and uh and pointing in his paintings. And so

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Speaker 1: I was reading part of a book by Walter Isaacson

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Speaker 1: about Da Vinci's life where he's got a chapter that

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Speaker 1: deals a lot with like a phase towards the end

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Speaker 1: of Leonardo da Vinci's life where it seems like he

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Speaker 1: was painting a lot of stuff that had pointing in it.

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Speaker 1: One great example is the painting Saint John the Baptist,

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Speaker 1: which was painted some time between fifteen thirteen and fifteen sixteen. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: this is a very interesting um portrait here of John

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Speaker 1: the Baptist. For for one thing, it is it's if

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Speaker 1: you haven't seen it, whatever you're imagining, Uh, for a

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Speaker 1: John the Baptist portrait like this is not it like

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Speaker 1: you tend to think of Like when I said, think

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Speaker 1: of art that had John the Baptist in it, I

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Speaker 1: tend to think of like I bearded head that has

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Speaker 1: been cut away from John the Baptist body. You know,

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Speaker 1: I tend to think that sort of imagery. And this

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Speaker 1: is um a very androgynous image of of of a

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Speaker 1: more youthful again androgynous figure. Uh. And it's and he's pointing,

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Speaker 1: but he and he's pointing up, but he's not pointing

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Speaker 1: up in a way like hey, I'm about to go

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Speaker 1: fly in the sky, or hey I think it's gonna

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Speaker 1: rain up there. There's a kind of a curve to

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Speaker 1: his hand, almost as if he is bending space. Like

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Speaker 1: he's like he's pointing not into something within our observable

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Speaker 1: physical dimensions, but into some hidden dimension. Yeah, it's very

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Speaker 1: strange and interesting painting. I mean, one thing beyond what

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Speaker 1: you're saying is that the expression on John the Baptist

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Speaker 1: face here is undeniably flirty. Yeah, like like it's being

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Speaker 1: very suggestively playful with the viewer. Um. And and so

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Speaker 1: he's pointing up like this. The pointing is very clearly

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Speaker 1: the center of the painting. It's what the eye is

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Speaker 1: immediately drawn to, and it's the gesture. And the painting

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Speaker 1: is so overt it almost suggests additional obscure meanings beyond

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Speaker 1: the direct reference to John the Baptist biblical role. I mean,

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Speaker 1: one way of understanding it is very straightforward is John

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Speaker 1: the Baptist and the Gospels. As you know, I'm here

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Speaker 1: to to prepare the way of the Lord. I'm here

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Speaker 1: to you know, turn people's eyes towards God. But I

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Speaker 1: don't know, it seems like there must be something else

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Speaker 1: going on. The pointing feels like a spell being cast.

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Speaker 1: It does, it really does. I definitely recommend everyone check

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Speaker 1: this one out to just really understand what we're talking

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Speaker 1: about here. Um and I do agree there is this

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Speaker 1: kind of flirty aspect to Um. The countenance of John

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Speaker 1: the Baptist. Here. I've read that this image in particular

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Speaker 1: is often brought up as an example of da Vinci's

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Speaker 1: homo erotic leanings in his art um though mainly again

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Speaker 1: for this soft and and androgynist nature of the betrayal,

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Speaker 1: not so much anything with the pointing. Yeah, but it's

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Speaker 1: fantastic painting either way. It's wonderful to look at, and

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Speaker 1: so there's tons of pointing all throughout da Vinci. Actually,

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Speaker 1: uh so, you know da Vinci's famous fresco The Last

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Speaker 1: Supper depicting the final meal between Jesus and his disciples.

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Speaker 1: If you actually look at the detail of it, it's

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Speaker 1: crammed with pointing. I think at least four or five

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Speaker 1: of the disciples are arguably engaging in some kind of

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Speaker 1: pointing in this in this work of art. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: this is a really interesting painting to touch on because

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Speaker 1: we've we've largely discussed pointing is more or less as

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Speaker 1: singular though multipurpose gesture. But in this painting we see

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Speaker 1: just a lot of general gesticulation, a lot of characters

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Speaker 1: clearly talking with their hands. We have this cool way

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Speaker 1: as humans of of treating linguistic concepts like physical concepts

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Speaker 1: like waves or fluids, you know, like like our words

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Speaker 1: or something in the air that can then be like

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Speaker 1: fluffed up or or pushed towards the person that is

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Speaker 1: going to hear them. Oh, and that comes through in

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Speaker 1: another gesture you see in this painting, which is the

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Speaker 1: raised hands defensive posture. I don't remember which disciple that is,

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Speaker 1: but one of the disciples has the hands up, palms

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Speaker 1: out in you know, it's as a gesture we all

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Speaker 1: recognize as the like hey, back off gesture, which is

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Speaker 1: often used to deflect pointing. You know, if you get

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Speaker 1: if you start pointing a finger at somebody, and we're

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Speaker 1: about to talk a bit more about taboos and aggressive pointing,

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Speaker 1: but you start pointing a finger at somebody, what do

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00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:31,320
Speaker 1: they often do the hands go up as if to

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Speaker 1: like defend from an incoming lance. Absolutely, yeah. But one

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Speaker 1: more interesting Da Vinci painting or actually it's not a

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Speaker 1: DaVinci painting, the painting by Raphael the School of Athens,

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Speaker 1: which in metaphor I think is supposed to depict Da

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Speaker 1: Vinci or Da Vinci's likeness in the figure of Plato. Uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, it shows Plato and Aristotle wandering through the

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Speaker 1: through the school where all the young philosophers are and uh,

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Speaker 1: Plato or da Vinci in the painting is clearly pointing

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Speaker 1: these pointing straight up at the sky. A lot of

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Speaker 1: times this has taken to indicate something about Plato's philosophy

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Speaker 1: actually right, you know, like pointing to the higher realm

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Speaker 1: of forms. But it also could be a reference to

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Speaker 1: Da Vinci, who loved a pointing finger in his artwork

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Speaker 1: and and seem to think a pointing finger had some

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Speaker 1: kind of mystical power. Well, there is kind of a

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Speaker 1: mystical power, isn't it When when someone is speaking and

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Speaker 1: they have an index finger raised, but they are not pointing.

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Speaker 1: It's pointing up, but they're not pointing at the sky,

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Speaker 1: like their gaze is not also uh skyward. Uh it

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00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:36,160
Speaker 1: is not. It's it's it's it's ambiguous because it's they're

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Speaker 1: not really they're not pointing it themselves. They're not pointing

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Speaker 1: at their own brain, like, listen to these these thoughts

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Speaker 1: that are pouring out of my melon. Um. They're not

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Speaker 1: pointing at anyone individual, But there's just kind of like

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Speaker 1: this general um commanding of attention to the words that

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Speaker 1: are being spoken, holding the finger pointed up like that

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Speaker 1: while you're speaking. In a way, I mean, not always,

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00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:57,800
Speaker 1: but in a way it can be kind of like

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00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:01,800
Speaker 1: holding a loaded gun. It's like I'm standing here ready

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Speaker 1: to deploy the pointing gesture to command your attention at

430
00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:08,640
Speaker 1: any moment, and you're on edge waiting for that gesture

431
00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:11,600
Speaker 1: to be deployed, but it doesn't get deployed, so instead

432
00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:15,880
Speaker 1: you're just there. You're in suspense and your attention is wrapped. Yeah,

433
00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:19,719
Speaker 1: that's that's interesting. I thought earlier when you're talking about pointing,

434
00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:24,760
Speaker 1: like how the invention of of the gun, particularly the handgun,

435
00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:30,600
Speaker 1: ends up uh, adjusting how we think about these gesticulations.

436
00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:34,200
Speaker 1: Because if you make if you make guns with your hands, uh,

437
00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:36,399
Speaker 1: and you point them at somebody. Depending on how you

438
00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:39,320
Speaker 1: do it, it can be it can be very playful. Uh.

439
00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:42,080
Speaker 1: It can also be you know, it can be it

440
00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:44,760
Speaker 1: can be a threat. It can be a blatant threat

441
00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:48,800
Speaker 1: against your your life. Uh. There, there's so you know,

442
00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:51,800
Speaker 1: so so much that can be said with just the

443
00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:54,800
Speaker 1: pointing of a finger. Yeah, well, the finger gun. I'd

444
00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:57,159
Speaker 1: say the most common uses are one as a threat

445
00:24:57,240 --> 00:25:01,199
Speaker 1: and two as like hey, that guy pew. If you

446
00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:04,440
Speaker 1: add the pe pew that is always well at least

447
00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:09,040
Speaker 1: generally going to make it a more playful gesture. Um uh.

448
00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:11,520
Speaker 1: There's another one I want to turn to briefly in

449
00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:14,800
Speaker 1: terms of paintings that involve pointing, and that's a couple

450
00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:17,520
Speaker 1: of things by William Blake. So one that I found

451
00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:20,679
Speaker 1: that I thought was amazing is that I was totally

452
00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:23,160
Speaker 1: unfamiliar with it before. But it was painted in sevent

453
00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:27,240
Speaker 1: and it's called God Judging Adam. Or actually I don't

454
00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:29,720
Speaker 1: think it's a painting. It's an etching printed on paper

455
00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:32,640
Speaker 1: from a copper plate, but of course it's William Blake,

456
00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:37,119
Speaker 1: William Blake with all his wonderful, weird alternative theology, and

457
00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:42,359
Speaker 1: the painting depicts God on a fiery throne extending a hand,

458
00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:45,640
Speaker 1: and I think the hand is holding a scepter that's

459
00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:49,400
Speaker 1: that's pointing toward Adam's head while Adam is sort of

460
00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:52,359
Speaker 1: hunched over with his hair hanging all over the place.

461
00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:54,960
Speaker 1: It looks like he doesn't even have arms, but I

462
00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:58,000
Speaker 1: think they're just being obscured by his hair in the painting,

463
00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:02,560
Speaker 1: and there's this like flaming horse behind him. Uh So, Uh,

464
00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:04,680
Speaker 1: I know. God, I think is supposed to be holding

465
00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:07,200
Speaker 1: a scepter in this painting, but instead, to me, it

466
00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:12,159
Speaker 1: just looks like God is pointing with his finger outstretched

467
00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:16,680
Speaker 1: and there's this pure vector of gray power emanating from

468
00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:20,000
Speaker 1: his extended finger into Adam's head. I mean, I just

469
00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:23,560
Speaker 1: see the Farnsworth fing longler in this particular image. That's

470
00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:26,640
Speaker 1: what it looks like God has. But also, old man

471
00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:29,840
Speaker 1: God in this painting, I feel like he is. It

472
00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:34,240
Speaker 1: looks like he is enthroned on the chariot um of Helios.

473
00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:37,280
Speaker 1: It looks like he is on a solar chariot. Well. Yeah,

474
00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:39,840
Speaker 1: Also I think the God in this painting blurs over

475
00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:44,440
Speaker 1: into I don't remember all the details of Blake's idiosyncratic theology,

476
00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:46,520
Speaker 1: but he had this figure of what's it called urism

477
00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:51,359
Speaker 1: or something that is clearly overlapping with what God is

478
00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:54,720
Speaker 1: depicted as here. But yeah, I see the fing Longler thing.

479
00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:58,639
Speaker 1: Now the next image that you have picked out, this

480
00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:01,680
Speaker 1: one is probably going to be the associated image for

481
00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:05,119
Speaker 1: this particular episode if you follow like our Instagram feed.

482
00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:09,080
Speaker 1: Oh okay, so this next one is uh one that

483
00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:11,520
Speaker 1: that I was aware of again because a Cooper writer

484
00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:14,560
Speaker 1: used this in his presentation. I thought this was so interesting.

485
00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:17,440
Speaker 1: It's another William Blake painting. This one is called Job

486
00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:21,800
Speaker 1: Rebuked by his Friends. It's from eighty five and Blake

487
00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:23,879
Speaker 1: here is illustrating a scene in the Bible. It's from

488
00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:27,320
Speaker 1: the Book of Job, chapter twelve, verse four, where it's

489
00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:30,360
Speaker 1: uh where you know the poetry says, I am as

490
00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:33,840
Speaker 1: one mocked of his neighbor, who calleth upon God, and

491
00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:37,119
Speaker 1: he answer with him, the just upright man is laughed

492
00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:41,800
Speaker 1: to scorn. So Job is their suffering. So very very

493
00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:44,760
Speaker 1: simple recap of the Book of Job is that Job

494
00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:48,360
Speaker 1: is a righteous man who who fears God, and he's

495
00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:51,440
Speaker 1: very blessed. He's you know, rich, and things are going

496
00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:54,199
Speaker 1: great for him. And the devil says to God, you know,

497
00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:56,639
Speaker 1: why don't you take away everything good he has and

498
00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:59,080
Speaker 1: make his life miserable and then you'll see that he's

499
00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:01,840
Speaker 1: not really your end after all? Job will curse you then,

500
00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:04,560
Speaker 1: so God, So God allows the devil to do that

501
00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:08,280
Speaker 1: to Job. You know, everything is he's lost everything, all

502
00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:11,160
Speaker 1: his children die, all his crops are destroyed and everything.

503
00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:14,840
Speaker 1: And then his friends are here condemning him. That you know,

504
00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:18,400
Speaker 1: the scorn here seems to be coming from job insisting

505
00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:21,600
Speaker 1: that he's actually innocent and he has not sinned, and

506
00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:24,240
Speaker 1: his friends are saying, you know, that's ridiculous. Of course

507
00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:27,000
Speaker 1: you you must have done something wicked since you're being

508
00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:30,520
Speaker 1: punished like this, um. And they're all pointing at him

509
00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:33,640
Speaker 1: with both hands. They're pointing at him while he's there suffering,

510
00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:36,680
Speaker 1: and the pointing seems to be a manifestation of this,

511
00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:41,040
Speaker 1: uh this, you know, kind of supernatural implied guilt and

512
00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:44,920
Speaker 1: malice from God above. Now that's interesting, the pointing with

513
00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:47,560
Speaker 1: both hands, because that's not something I feel like we

514
00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:53,040
Speaker 1: see at least in our our modern pointing culture, unless

515
00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:56,680
Speaker 1: you're talking about the double thumb self referential pointing. But

516
00:28:56,720 --> 00:28:59,720
Speaker 1: in terms of double index fingers, I I don't think

517
00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:01,320
Speaker 1: I have or see that, And when I'm doing I'm

518
00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:04,719
Speaker 1: doing it right now at the laptop as we record this,

519
00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:07,880
Speaker 1: and it feels weird, it feels unnatural. I'm trying to

520
00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:10,040
Speaker 1: think of cases where I would point with both hands.

521
00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:12,360
Speaker 1: I mean, it would make more sense if I just

522
00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:15,840
Speaker 1: went full pew pew blasters with my fingers like that

523
00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:18,280
Speaker 1: at least feels more in keeping with the way we

524
00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:21,720
Speaker 1: use pointing. Today. But if I'm making like straight up

525
00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:25,480
Speaker 1: look at you fingers, it's it feels strange. Yeah, well,

526
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:29,400
Speaker 1: so shown in this image, I mean there's clear significance

527
00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:34,800
Speaker 1: that pointing has this um dangerous aggressive power to it

528
00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:37,440
Speaker 1: as well. I mean, often we're just pointing at things

529
00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:40,000
Speaker 1: in a way that feels very neutral and and you know,

530
00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:43,560
Speaker 1: doesn't have a lot of emotional valance. But this clearly

531
00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:48,760
Speaker 1: illustrates that pointing can be threatening, can feel dangerous, can

532
00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:53,680
Speaker 1: even feel terrifying, and it well, obviously what just came

533
00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:56,240
Speaker 1: to my mind is is you know that famous image

534
00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:59,360
Speaker 1: from Invasion to the Body Snatchers, where you know, the

535
00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:02,360
Speaker 1: creatures they discover there's somebody who's still human and they

536
00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:06,760
Speaker 1: point and scream um. But but it makes me think

537
00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:10,080
Speaker 1: about how in many cultures, including in modern American culture,

538
00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:15,400
Speaker 1: to varying degrees, there are various taboos around pointing, especially

539
00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:19,880
Speaker 1: at people, but also in various cases, sometimes at certain

540
00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:24,520
Speaker 1: kinds of objects. This has been documented in numerous studies. Uh,

541
00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:27,960
Speaker 1: pointing taboos are not the same everywhere, they're not universal,

542
00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:32,280
Speaker 1: but they are a but there are various kinds of

543
00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:35,840
Speaker 1: pointing taboos found all over the world, and their culturally

544
00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:40,000
Speaker 1: variable in their features and levels of emphasis. So just

545
00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:43,160
Speaker 1: one example of a study about one way pointing taboos

546
00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:46,040
Speaker 1: manifest in a particular culture. I was looking at a

547
00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:49,960
Speaker 1: study published in two thousand one by Sataro Kita and

548
00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:54,400
Speaker 1: James A. Seg B in the journal Gesture called pointing

549
00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:57,160
Speaker 1: Left in Ghana, how a taboo on the use of

550
00:30:57,200 --> 00:31:02,480
Speaker 1: the left hand influences gestural practice And so basically there's

551
00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:06,880
Speaker 1: previously documented evidence that pointing with the left hand was

552
00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:11,600
Speaker 1: considered a taboo among many people in Ghana, and the

553
00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:15,200
Speaker 1: researchers here studied this by going to Ghana and asking

554
00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:18,480
Speaker 1: people on the street in Ghana for directions to somewhere,

555
00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:21,720
Speaker 1: and then documenting what kinds of gestures they used while

556
00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:25,000
Speaker 1: they were giving directions. And so there were several interesting

557
00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:29,120
Speaker 1: findings here. One they observed and apparently common politeness convention,

558
00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:31,800
Speaker 1: that when you know people were being were helping out

559
00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:35,280
Speaker 1: a stranger with directions, they would often place the left

560
00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:39,440
Speaker 1: hand on the lower back as if to hide it uh.

561
00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:42,040
Speaker 1: And then second, as a they say quote as a

562
00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:46,880
Speaker 1: consequence of left hand suppression. Right handed pointing may involve

563
00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:52,240
Speaker 1: an anatomically straining position when indicating a leftward direction across

564
00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:55,320
Speaker 1: the body. So, like they documented these cases where people

565
00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:57,720
Speaker 1: would point with the right hand instead of the left,

566
00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:02,160
Speaker 1: even though positioning of the hand the direction indicated was awkward. Right,

567
00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:05,000
Speaker 1: they have to like point across their own body or something.

568
00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:09,440
Speaker 1: And then finally they observed that quote, pointing is sometimes

569
00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:13,120
Speaker 1: performed with both hands together. This picking up on uh,

570
00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:18,480
Speaker 1: this which does not violate the taboo uh. And I've

571
00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:21,760
Speaker 1: I've definitely seen this kind of gesture in an American context.

572
00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:23,880
Speaker 1: Where as far as I know, there's not a generalized

573
00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:28,160
Speaker 1: taboo against left hand pointing, but there's some other unspoken

574
00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:32,840
Speaker 1: rule of politeness or taboo avoidance that sometimes demands, you know,

575
00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:35,360
Speaker 1: different kinds of pointing. In one way, I think we

576
00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:38,680
Speaker 1: sometimes adapt to that as putting the fingers together in

577
00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:42,200
Speaker 1: the you know, the hands, not pointing with both fingers separately,

578
00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:44,800
Speaker 1: but you know, like weaving the fingers together and pointing

579
00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:49,400
Speaker 1: like that. I've seen that happen in business meetings. But

580
00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:52,560
Speaker 1: the authors here they say, quote, despite the taboo, left

581
00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:56,520
Speaker 1: handed pointing is not suppressed fully. Left handed pointing gestures

582
00:32:56,560 --> 00:33:00,520
Speaker 1: occur in association with the verbalization of the concept left,

583
00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:04,840
Speaker 1: suggesting the embodied nature of the concept. In addition, it

584
00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:07,280
Speaker 1: is noteworthy that there is a class of left handed

585
00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:11,040
Speaker 1: gestures which are so reduced in form that Ghanaians do

586
00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:14,280
Speaker 1: not consider them as pointing for the purpose of the taboo.

587
00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:17,800
Speaker 1: But that's just one example. It's one particular type of

588
00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:21,160
Speaker 1: pointing in a particular culture. There are also these extremely

589
00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:25,280
Speaker 1: broad trends found in many cultures, such as an apparent

590
00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:31,640
Speaker 1: taboo against pointing at human beings with an extended index finger. Yes.

591
00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:34,400
Speaker 1: And this can be of course trying with children because

592
00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:38,959
Speaker 1: because as we we mentioned earlier, like pointing at things

593
00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:42,240
Speaker 1: and people is a key way that they interact with

594
00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:45,080
Speaker 1: the world early on. And so I think we probably

595
00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:48,280
Speaker 1: all have examples from our childhood or you know that

596
00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:52,160
Speaker 1: the childhoods of others where a child points at somebody

597
00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:56,040
Speaker 1: h to ask, you know, a literally a pointed question

598
00:33:56,360 --> 00:33:58,600
Speaker 1: about them, or to you know, to to point them

599
00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:02,040
Speaker 1: out in a way that is inappropriate. Uh, certainly if

600
00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:04,440
Speaker 1: they were an adult. Totally. Yeah, it's it's a thing

601
00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:07,200
Speaker 1: that has to be properly socialized into children, just like

602
00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:09,880
Speaker 1: the kinds of things that it's polite to say or

603
00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:15,080
Speaker 1: not say. Um. And so again this next citation I

604
00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:18,040
Speaker 1: became aware of because it was in Cooper Writer's presentation.

605
00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:20,120
Speaker 1: I thought this was really interesting. So there's a study

606
00:34:20,160 --> 00:34:25,080
Speaker 1: by Finland at All in twenty nineteen which found that

607
00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:29,360
Speaker 1: UM in groups of people from Western cultures, when pointing

608
00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:33,399
Speaker 1: to present people, so as so pointing to the self

609
00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:36,680
Speaker 1: or other persons present in a in a communicating group,

610
00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:41,520
Speaker 1: the whole hand was preferred instead of the standard index finger.

611
00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:44,279
Speaker 1: So these are cultures where pointing with the index finger

612
00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:47,640
Speaker 1: is common, But if you're talking about somebody who's here,

613
00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:51,320
Speaker 1: you point with your whole hand instead of the extended

614
00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:54,320
Speaker 1: index finger. Yeah, your open hand what I think of

615
00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:57,799
Speaker 1: as a behold gesture. Yeah, that's a good way of

616
00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:00,239
Speaker 1: putting it. Uh. So you know, I think if you

617
00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:02,279
Speaker 1: live in the United States or many other countries, you

618
00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:06,080
Speaker 1: can very likely notice this tendency yourself. Like I would say,

619
00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:09,040
Speaker 1: I recognize it. I normally use a finger to point

620
00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:11,680
Speaker 1: at an object or maybe even to point at a

621
00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:15,160
Speaker 1: person who is not within the conversation or you know,

622
00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:18,680
Speaker 1: like a person on a screen on the TV or something.

623
00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:21,160
Speaker 1: But I would use a whole hand with an open

624
00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:24,520
Speaker 1: palm to point to myself for two people in a

625
00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:27,400
Speaker 1: group that I was talking to Pointing with an index

626
00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:30,719
Speaker 1: finger in this context would feel I can feel it

627
00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:34,480
Speaker 1: just imagining it. It would feel aggressive unless done maybe

628
00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:37,239
Speaker 1: in the context of a joke or something. It's got

629
00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:40,799
Speaker 1: it's some kind of mild taboo, and it feels kind

630
00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:46,239
Speaker 1: of threatening and aggressive or transgressive. Yeah, yeah, it certainly does,

631
00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:48,400
Speaker 1: you know. And one thing that comes to mind and

632
00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:51,960
Speaker 1: all this too, is you, Okay, we're talking about gesturing,

633
00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:55,399
Speaker 1: pointing at someone with the open hand, uh, gesturing with

634
00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:59,160
Speaker 1: the index finger. But there's so many other possibilities you

635
00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:02,720
Speaker 1: just do not see. For instance, I've never seen anyone

636
00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:05,680
Speaker 1: point at someone with a closed fist, you know, unless

637
00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:09,200
Speaker 1: they are brandishing a fist at somebody, you know, either

638
00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:12,440
Speaker 1: out of legitimate rage or mocking lee, you know, pretending

639
00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:15,560
Speaker 1: to be angry. But that's still a very different gesture

640
00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:21,080
Speaker 1: that you're not, like, like pointing at somebody with the fist. Uh. Yeah. Actually,

641
00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:23,200
Speaker 1: this is funny because I didn't go into depth in this,

642
00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:25,719
Speaker 1: so I don't have the notes here, but I do

643
00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:27,640
Speaker 1: remember reading and one of the things I was looking

644
00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:31,520
Speaker 1: at that some cultures do use fist pointing for certain

645
00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:36,520
Speaker 1: kinds of pointing in certain scenarios. Interesting Okay, Yeah, so

646
00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:38,120
Speaker 1: so this would be an example where it just comes

647
00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:42,600
Speaker 1: down to cultural differences. Though I do wonder, like, certainly

648
00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:46,880
Speaker 1: we have this ingrained understanding that the closed fist is

649
00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:52,360
Speaker 1: violence or possession, like they're they're sort of intrinsic qualities

650
00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:56,560
Speaker 1: to that uh positioning of the hand. So I wonder

651
00:36:57,080 --> 00:37:00,000
Speaker 1: you know how that plays into their use of very

652
00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:02,880
Speaker 1: picular forms of gesticulation. Yeah, well, I mean, I guess it.

653
00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:06,080
Speaker 1: I don't know. It's very interesting that like, obviously, if

654
00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:09,799
Speaker 1: you were going to physically attack someone, a fist is

655
00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:13,880
Speaker 1: more dangerous than a single index finger extended. It's like,

656
00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:18,279
Speaker 1: a single index finger extended is not a real attack position, right,

657
00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:19,840
Speaker 1: you know, if you were going to poke somebody like

658
00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:21,600
Speaker 1: or I mean it could be, but like that, that's

659
00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:24,360
Speaker 1: not how you would really hurt somebody bad a fist,

660
00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:26,799
Speaker 1: right to go for the two fingers to do a

661
00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:31,920
Speaker 1: proper stooge style attack, right, Um, And yet I can

662
00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:36,880
Speaker 1: see how the extended finger somehow is symbolically more threatening

663
00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:40,640
Speaker 1: even though it's not physically actually more threatening, because you

664
00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:44,640
Speaker 1: can at least imagine from the extended finger, there's almost

665
00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:48,440
Speaker 1: like an imagined projection of a sharp point as if

666
00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:53,600
Speaker 1: one has a kind of imaginary lance or stick or weapon. Yeah,

667
00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:56,600
Speaker 1: I could see that interpretation. Another way to potentially look

668
00:37:56,640 --> 00:37:59,040
Speaker 1: at it is if if you're if you're putting a

669
00:37:59,080 --> 00:38:02,440
Speaker 1: fist at me, that's you're treating me like a you're

670
00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:05,160
Speaker 1: treating me more like an enemy. That is, actually you're

671
00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:07,399
Speaker 1: gonna have to actually have to combat. But if it's

672
00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:09,960
Speaker 1: a finger, it's all if you feel it feels far

673
00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:14,080
Speaker 1: more objectifying, like I'm not even a physical entity with

674
00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:16,879
Speaker 1: which you would actually that would actually respond to you,

675
00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:18,600
Speaker 1: Like I'm something on a shelf that you can just

676
00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:21,320
Speaker 1: sort of poke around with your index finger. Yeah. And

677
00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:23,600
Speaker 1: it's but it's so interesting, like why do we have

678
00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:28,880
Speaker 1: that convention, Like I can't see there's anything inherently, you know,

679
00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:32,120
Speaker 1: like a threatening or objectifying about pointing at somebody with

680
00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:36,799
Speaker 1: an index finger. But it feels obviously wrong and and

681
00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:40,440
Speaker 1: and it's just our our intuitions are run through with it. Uh.

682
00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:45,040
Speaker 1: You know. One example, interesting example is like, uh, gestures

683
00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:47,799
Speaker 1: used by politicians like Cooper Wright drew my attention to

684
00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:50,640
Speaker 1: the idea of the you know, the Bill Clinton thumb press.

685
00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:53,600
Speaker 1: If you've seen Bill Clinton gives speeches, he does this

686
00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:55,719
Speaker 1: thing where he has kind of a closed hand with

687
00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:59,160
Speaker 1: a thumb protruding over the top of his curled fingers

688
00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:03,399
Speaker 1: while he talks UM. And apparently this was a suggestion,

689
00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:08,080
Speaker 1: you know, an intentional change in his gestures because when

690
00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:10,520
Speaker 1: Bill Clinton, he had advisors who told him that his

691
00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:14,839
Speaker 1: natural tendency to point while talking was perceived by some

692
00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:18,480
Speaker 1: people as aggressive or threatening, so he substituted the kind

693
00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:22,400
Speaker 1: of like like closed fist thumb thing to to blunt

694
00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:26,840
Speaker 1: that potential aggressiveness. Okay, interesting, Yeah, if you if you

695
00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:30,839
Speaker 1: do just an image search for thumb Bill Clinton, um,

696
00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:32,520
Speaker 1: you'll see, of course a lot of examples have been

697
00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:34,360
Speaker 1: given a thumbs up, but you just also see some

698
00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:38,120
Speaker 1: examples of him clearly speaking while gesticulating with his thumb.

699
00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:41,440
Speaker 1: And then also some images, some new but but at

700
00:39:41,520 --> 00:39:45,439
Speaker 1: least some older where he's clearly talking while pointing. And yeah,

701
00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:47,719
Speaker 1: you can pick up on exactly what you're talking about here.

702
00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:50,920
Speaker 1: But again, I mean, it's an it's so interesting that like,

703
00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:54,600
Speaker 1: I agree with you, like the there's no inherent reason

704
00:39:54,680 --> 00:39:58,080
Speaker 1: I can think of why the pointing finger would be

705
00:39:58,120 --> 00:40:00,520
Speaker 1: more threatening than the fist with the um, like the

706
00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:03,360
Speaker 1: fist with the thumb could hurt you more in reality,

707
00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:07,040
Speaker 1: So like there's got to be some like deep symbolic

708
00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:10,359
Speaker 1: association we have with the pointing finger that makes that

709
00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:14,479
Speaker 1: feel like the more dangerous gesture. Yeah. I keep coming

710
00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:18,680
Speaker 1: back to this, this connection between pointing and poking. You know, uh,

711
00:40:18,719 --> 00:40:22,839
Speaker 1: this objectification via poking. Um, I mean pointing is a

712
00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:26,120
Speaker 1: way to instantly draw communal attention to something. It is

713
00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:29,839
Speaker 1: an expedited method of demanding attention be paid, that the

714
00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:33,400
Speaker 1: person UH pointed at be considered or even objectified, and

715
00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:37,000
Speaker 1: the finger point at least within our current culture, it

716
00:40:37,040 --> 00:40:40,759
Speaker 1: does seem particularly objectifying. Uh. While while an open hand

717
00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:44,719
Speaker 1: is much more like consider this, behold this even, but

718
00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:48,120
Speaker 1: the pointing finger is more look at that, look at

719
00:40:48,200 --> 00:40:50,560
Speaker 1: it right now, look at what is going on here,

720
00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:54,520
Speaker 1: and judge it well. I would also say, um, there

721
00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:56,680
Speaker 1: is a way in which so you can you can

722
00:40:56,719 --> 00:41:00,719
Speaker 1: imagine different gestures being given directly to viewer. Like, so

723
00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:04,160
Speaker 1: somebody's looking at you and they're indicating you with a gesture,

724
00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:07,480
Speaker 1: if they indicate you with an open hand versus indicate

725
00:41:07,560 --> 00:41:10,080
Speaker 1: you with a pointed finger, I would say, at least

726
00:41:10,120 --> 00:41:15,040
Speaker 1: intuitively to me, being indicated with a pointing finger is

727
00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:19,759
Speaker 1: more un ignorably involving, like it's just like I can't

728
00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:22,000
Speaker 1: get out of this. I am drawn in now, Like

729
00:41:22,080 --> 00:41:25,279
Speaker 1: whatever this person is doing, I cannot ignore it, right,

730
00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:27,720
Speaker 1: And I think a great example of this can be found,

731
00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:32,560
Speaker 1: uh in a in countless propaganda posters. Probably the two

732
00:41:32,600 --> 00:41:37,040
Speaker 1: most famous, especially to uh like American listeners, will be

733
00:41:37,120 --> 00:41:41,360
Speaker 1: the the Uncle Sam I want you for the U. S. Army,

734
00:41:41,880 --> 00:41:44,759
Speaker 1: where Uncle Sam is staring right at you, pointing right

735
00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:47,799
Speaker 1: at you and saying, Nope, you're the one you're joining up.

736
00:41:48,200 --> 00:41:50,520
Speaker 1: It's the the extent, it's in the index finger, the

737
00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:53,439
Speaker 1: extended index finger is almost like you can't get out

738
00:41:53,440 --> 00:42:00,239
Speaker 1: of this. Yeah. Another big one is the famous someone talked, uh, sister,

739
00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:04,600
Speaker 1: where there's a serviceman uh, you know, clearly about to

740
00:42:04,680 --> 00:42:06,960
Speaker 1: drown in the water, pointing up from the from a

741
00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:11,640
Speaker 1: dark ocean, accusing us, you know, you loose lips sink

742
00:42:11,680 --> 00:42:14,680
Speaker 1: ships kind of a thing. But even outside of those,

743
00:42:14,680 --> 00:42:17,440
Speaker 1: if you just do a few image searches for propaganda

744
00:42:17,480 --> 00:42:21,920
Speaker 1: posters and pointing, you'll find numerous examples uh or at

745
00:42:21,960 --> 00:42:26,160
Speaker 1: least a lot of European and uh you know, Russian

746
00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:30,760
Speaker 1: examples where there is clearly an authority figure or a soldier,

747
00:42:31,040 --> 00:42:33,920
Speaker 1: and they're pointing right at you. Uh, and there is

748
00:42:33,960 --> 00:42:36,800
Speaker 1: some sort of a demand or an accusation being made,

749
00:42:37,120 --> 00:42:39,799
Speaker 1: and it's clearly a call to action. It makes me

750
00:42:39,840 --> 00:42:43,120
Speaker 1: think of the end of my favorite English translation of

751
00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:46,480
Speaker 1: the Rainer Maria Rilka poem, the Archaic Torso of Apollo,

752
00:42:46,640 --> 00:42:50,239
Speaker 1: where the poem begins just as a description of the

753
00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:54,880
Speaker 1: sculpture of Apollo from classical Greece, but then it ends

754
00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:59,680
Speaker 1: with the idea that the sculpture is so powerful in

755
00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:03,279
Speaker 1: its features that suddenly it has it has captured your

756
00:43:03,320 --> 00:43:07,040
Speaker 1: mind and you can't ignore it, and it has implications.

757
00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:10,760
Speaker 1: The way that's realized in the poem is suddenly talking

758
00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:13,320
Speaker 1: about the features of the statue turns into the phrase

759
00:43:13,640 --> 00:43:17,080
Speaker 1: from here there is no place that does not see you.

760
00:43:17,080 --> 00:43:21,920
Speaker 1: You must change your life. M interesting and that that

761
00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:24,680
Speaker 1: kind of brings to mind not only pointing, but the

762
00:43:24,680 --> 00:43:26,680
Speaker 1: the stare of the gorgon that we talked about in

763
00:43:26,719 --> 00:43:31,200
Speaker 1: the Medusa episodes totally. And that's the Stephen Mitchell translation

764
00:43:31,239 --> 00:43:33,520
Speaker 1: of that poem. By the way. All right, on that note,

765
00:43:33,560 --> 00:43:35,239
Speaker 1: we're going to take one more break, but when we

766
00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:38,880
Speaker 1: come back we will continue our discussion of finger pointing,

767
00:43:39,200 --> 00:43:42,719
Speaker 1: and we will venture back into the world of non

768
00:43:42,840 --> 00:43:49,920
Speaker 1: human animals. All right, we're back, Okay. So we started

769
00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:52,360
Speaker 1: off by talking about one of the early examples I

770
00:43:52,440 --> 00:43:55,920
Speaker 1: used here was was my dog Charlie. How I think

771
00:43:56,000 --> 00:43:59,920
Speaker 1: maybe occasionally he gets a flicker of the idea of pointing.

772
00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:02,160
Speaker 1: If I pointed something, he might look in the direction

773
00:44:02,160 --> 00:44:05,799
Speaker 1: that I'm pointing, but it seems exceedingly brief and rare

774
00:44:05,920 --> 00:44:08,960
Speaker 1: in his perception. And mostly when I point at something,

775
00:44:09,040 --> 00:44:12,080
Speaker 1: for Charlie, he looks at my hand. It's as if

776
00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:14,799
Speaker 1: my hand is doing something, not as if my hand

777
00:44:14,880 --> 00:44:18,520
Speaker 1: is indicating something beyond itself. And it makes me wonder

778
00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:23,040
Speaker 1: in general, do any hu do any animals beyond humans

779
00:44:23,239 --> 00:44:28,040
Speaker 1: understand that extension of the body as the direction of attention? Yeah,

780
00:44:28,080 --> 00:44:32,080
Speaker 1: this is a fascinating subject because I mean, certainly, just

781
00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:35,600
Speaker 1: just like your your example with your dog, my cat Mochi,

782
00:44:36,239 --> 00:44:39,520
Speaker 1: she universally does not get pointing. She has no idea

783
00:44:39,560 --> 00:44:44,080
Speaker 1: what pointing is about. Like, but but she does understand gays. Uh,

784
00:44:44,160 --> 00:44:47,240
Speaker 1: just as your dog understands gays. Just as so many animals,

785
00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:50,480
Speaker 1: as we discussed in our last episode, understand what gays

786
00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:55,080
Speaker 1: means a stare is attention, and it has ramifications, uh

787
00:44:55,160 --> 00:45:00,120
Speaker 1: in terms of how animals interact with one another. But

788
00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:03,359
Speaker 1: but but but when we were actually getting into um,

789
00:45:03,880 --> 00:45:06,360
Speaker 1: pointing the finger. I mean, this is a level of

790
00:45:06,360 --> 00:45:09,640
Speaker 1: of often thought of, as you know, human complexity, beyond

791
00:45:09,760 --> 00:45:12,759
Speaker 1: merely looking at something. When I look at my cat

792
00:45:12,880 --> 00:45:15,839
Speaker 1: and point at say some catnapp or some food, I'm

793
00:45:15,920 --> 00:45:20,000
Speaker 1: using two different attention focusing mechanisms in unison rather than

794
00:45:20,080 --> 00:45:22,880
Speaker 1: just one. Now, um, you know, it's not just to

795
00:45:22,920 --> 00:45:25,239
Speaker 1: say look at what you uh as you want, but

796
00:45:25,400 --> 00:45:27,839
Speaker 1: rather look at the one you want to look at

797
00:45:27,880 --> 00:45:30,120
Speaker 1: the thing you're also pointing at, you know, like it's

798
00:45:30,160 --> 00:45:34,200
Speaker 1: just it's just this extra level of complexity. It's it's

799
00:45:34,239 --> 00:45:37,160
Speaker 1: also a very social gesture, which is something to keep

800
00:45:37,160 --> 00:45:40,160
Speaker 1: in mind when we're considering other animals. In the words

801
00:45:40,160 --> 00:45:44,280
Speaker 1: of David A. Levin's, William D. Hopkins and Kim A. Bard,

802
00:45:44,680 --> 00:45:49,800
Speaker 1: it serves to quote rapidly established topics for mutual contemplation,

803
00:45:50,040 --> 00:45:52,400
Speaker 1: which I think is a wonderful um way of summing

804
00:45:52,440 --> 00:45:55,040
Speaker 1: it up. This is from their two thousand and five

805
00:45:55,120 --> 00:45:59,440
Speaker 1: paper Understanding the Point of Chimpanzee pointing, and this was

806
00:45:59,440 --> 00:46:03,960
Speaker 1: published in current directions in psychological science, and for starters,

807
00:46:04,160 --> 00:46:06,719
Speaker 1: they refer to what we talked about earlier. Children begin

808
00:46:06,760 --> 00:46:09,200
Speaker 1: to point at events and objects in their environment by

809
00:46:09,239 --> 00:46:13,160
Speaker 1: age one or thereabouts. Uh. They also say that it

810
00:46:13,280 --> 00:46:16,000
Speaker 1: is often considered key in the acquisition of language. Pointing

811
00:46:16,040 --> 00:46:18,480
Speaker 1: allows us to indicate something in the world to a

812
00:46:18,560 --> 00:46:22,920
Speaker 1: child and express its linguistic name. And while we often

813
00:46:22,960 --> 00:46:25,720
Speaker 1: think of pointing as a thing done in lieu of words,

814
00:46:25,800 --> 00:46:28,080
Speaker 1: it functions in a different way. And I think they

815
00:46:28,120 --> 00:46:31,640
Speaker 1: sum this up nicely. Quote points do not stand for

816
00:46:32,000 --> 00:46:35,120
Speaker 1: or represent the objects indicated in the way that words do.

817
00:46:35,480 --> 00:46:39,239
Speaker 1: The standing for relation is termed by linguists reference in

818
00:46:39,400 --> 00:46:43,360
Speaker 1: verbal reference, words that represent particular entities are not iconic.

819
00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:47,160
Speaker 1: The relationship between the physical features of the word dog

820
00:46:47,320 --> 00:46:51,040
Speaker 1: and actual dogs is arbitrary. In contrast with pointing, the

821
00:46:51,080 --> 00:46:54,880
Speaker 1: relationship between the signal and the thing is indicated is

822
00:46:54,920 --> 00:46:58,279
Speaker 1: not arbitrary. A point specific meaning is determined in a

823
00:46:58,400 --> 00:47:03,120
Speaker 1: large part by spatial locations of the pointer, the thing indicated,

824
00:47:03,320 --> 00:47:07,240
Speaker 1: and the communicative partner. An act of pointing thus creates

825
00:47:07,239 --> 00:47:11,480
Speaker 1: a referential triangle that incorporates distant objects into the relationship

826
00:47:11,520 --> 00:47:14,839
Speaker 1: between a signaler and the recipient of the gesture. So

827
00:47:15,000 --> 00:47:19,400
Speaker 1: this brings us back to our consideration of non human animals.

828
00:47:19,440 --> 00:47:24,560
Speaker 1: What other animals understand pointing like this, and basically the

829
00:47:24,600 --> 00:47:28,120
Speaker 1: answer is is almost none of them. Uh. Even the

830
00:47:28,160 --> 00:47:32,160
Speaker 1: great apes are closest evolutionary relatives are said to generally

831
00:47:32,280 --> 00:47:36,640
Speaker 1: fail to understand pointing by humans. However, according to Levin's

832
00:47:36,680 --> 00:47:39,960
Speaker 1: at all uh, who had cited earlier, it's incorrect to

833
00:47:40,040 --> 00:47:46,080
Speaker 1: state that apes never point, though previously many experts considered

834
00:47:46,960 --> 00:47:50,200
Speaker 1: apes to be incapable of pointing or understanding pointing. But

835
00:47:50,560 --> 00:47:53,200
Speaker 1: in in these really the work of these researchers, they

836
00:47:53,200 --> 00:47:59,239
Speaker 1: found that chimpanzees in captivity commonly point to unreachable food UH.

837
00:47:59,360 --> 00:48:02,360
Speaker 1: Sometimes that with their index fingers, but far more often

838
00:48:02,400 --> 00:48:05,319
Speaker 1: with all fingers extended, and you can think of this

839
00:48:05,400 --> 00:48:09,520
Speaker 1: as as whole hand pointing. The researchers also sometimes refer

840
00:48:09,600 --> 00:48:12,440
Speaker 1: to it as reaching, but the authors argue that these

841
00:48:12,480 --> 00:48:16,960
Speaker 1: are actually clearly communicative signals because the chimps will not

842
00:48:17,160 --> 00:48:20,960
Speaker 1: reach for the unreachable food if there is nobody around

843
00:48:20,960 --> 00:48:23,560
Speaker 1: to see them do it. That's very interesting, So it

844
00:48:23,600 --> 00:48:26,520
Speaker 1: requires the presence of an audience for the for the

845
00:48:26,600 --> 00:48:30,520
Speaker 1: pointing to happen. But I do wonder there is that

846
00:48:30,520 --> 00:48:33,360
Speaker 1: that kind of pointing. So and so a chimpanzee points

847
00:48:33,400 --> 00:48:35,760
Speaker 1: to a piece of food that it wants that maybe

848
00:48:35,760 --> 00:48:40,080
Speaker 1: a human could get for it. Is that kind of pointing? Actually,

849
00:48:40,440 --> 00:48:43,840
Speaker 1: with the division we talked about earlier, imperative versus declarative,

850
00:48:43,960 --> 00:48:47,080
Speaker 1: is that actually declarative or is that imperative pointing? Is

851
00:48:47,080 --> 00:48:50,680
Speaker 1: that like a ritualized gesture that the ape has maybe

852
00:48:50,719 --> 00:48:54,680
Speaker 1: just like learned through conditioning, can can maybe get it

853
00:48:54,880 --> 00:48:58,560
Speaker 1: the food. Yeah, it does raise a lot of questions. Apparently,

854
00:48:58,680 --> 00:49:02,840
Speaker 1: I've seen it described as being something that spontaneously occurs

855
00:49:02,960 --> 00:49:08,720
Speaker 1: in captive chimpanzees. Meanwhile, there are at least there seems

856
00:49:08,719 --> 00:49:12,640
Speaker 1: to be very few accounts of wild apes engaging in pointing.

857
00:49:12,680 --> 00:49:15,920
Speaker 1: In fact, the authors of this study identify only a

858
00:49:16,000 --> 00:49:19,560
Speaker 1: single incident, a leged incident in which a benobo was

859
00:49:19,600 --> 00:49:23,279
Speaker 1: observed to point twice at human observers in hiding, and

860
00:49:23,320 --> 00:49:28,840
Speaker 1: this was back in But ultimately they consider chimpanzee pointing

861
00:49:28,840 --> 00:49:33,000
Speaker 1: as follows quote. The fact that chimpanzees and captivity frequently point,

862
00:49:33,040 --> 00:49:35,600
Speaker 1: but those in the wild almost never do, is not

863
00:49:35,719 --> 00:49:40,960
Speaker 1: merely a trivial consequence of raising chimpanzees and bizarre captive environments. Rather,

864
00:49:41,040 --> 00:49:44,000
Speaker 1: it suggests that pointing by humans is written neither in

865
00:49:44,040 --> 00:49:46,759
Speaker 1: our genes nor in our anatomy, but in the functional

866
00:49:46,840 --> 00:49:50,960
Speaker 1: characteristics of our social and physical environments. The harder argument

867
00:49:51,000 --> 00:49:54,840
Speaker 1: to make is that pointing emerges in similar circumstances into

868
00:49:54,960 --> 00:49:59,560
Speaker 1: very closely related species with similar body plans and hand anatomies,

869
00:49:59,760 --> 00:50:06,000
Speaker 1: yet derives from completely unrelated psychological processes, as suggested by

870
00:50:06,320 --> 00:50:10,920
Speaker 1: Provenelli at All two thousand three. When chimpanzees in captivity

871
00:50:10,960 --> 00:50:14,560
Speaker 1: point to unreachable food, the overt meaning is obvious. It

872
00:50:14,600 --> 00:50:17,719
Speaker 1: would be unfortunate if we failed to grasp the implicit

873
00:50:17,760 --> 00:50:21,279
Speaker 1: meaning of this gesture. Pointing is not uniquely specified by

874
00:50:21,320 --> 00:50:24,040
Speaker 1: the human genome. Now. It should be noted, however, that

875
00:50:24,080 --> 00:50:27,760
Speaker 1: other researchers are less sure what this is ultimately all about.

876
00:50:28,040 --> 00:50:32,560
Speaker 1: Recent articles, including context sensitive adjustment of pointing in great

877
00:50:32,600 --> 00:50:36,439
Speaker 1: APPEs from have discussed that this pointing by great apes

878
00:50:36,719 --> 00:50:39,960
Speaker 1: may may may, It might be associated, be an associated

879
00:50:39,960 --> 00:50:42,719
Speaker 1: response to a certain set of clues food is out

880
00:50:42,719 --> 00:50:45,720
Speaker 1: of reach, human is nearby, or it could be communicative

881
00:50:46,040 --> 00:50:50,000
Speaker 1: communicative signal which can be adjusted to relevant aspects of

882
00:50:50,040 --> 00:50:53,439
Speaker 1: the spatial social context. So that's what I was asking

883
00:50:53,480 --> 00:50:55,520
Speaker 1: about a minute ago, Like is it a real like

884
00:50:55,800 --> 00:50:58,960
Speaker 1: attempt to control attention or is it like a conditioned,

885
00:50:59,120 --> 00:51:02,439
Speaker 1: ritualized jure. Yeah, so you know, it seems like they're

886
00:51:02,520 --> 00:51:06,760
Speaker 1: there's still some some unanswered questions here. Um, but great

887
00:51:06,800 --> 00:51:11,200
Speaker 1: apes can under certain the right circumstances spontaneously take up

888
00:51:11,239 --> 00:51:14,120
Speaker 1: pointing or at least, you know, the gesturing in a

889
00:51:14,120 --> 00:51:16,839
Speaker 1: way that we can consider pointing. Uh. That that much

890
00:51:17,120 --> 00:51:20,920
Speaker 1: seems to be accepted. Now with other animals, there are

891
00:51:20,920 --> 00:51:24,799
Speaker 1: some some interesting and occasionally I think surprising answers. So

892
00:51:25,080 --> 00:51:28,719
Speaker 1: first of all, there is the domestic dog. Now you've

893
00:51:28,760 --> 00:51:31,759
Speaker 1: you've already shared that with the With your dog, you

894
00:51:31,840 --> 00:51:34,080
Speaker 1: don't see a lot of you don't see much in

895
00:51:34,080 --> 00:51:40,000
Speaker 1: the way of an understanding regarding pointing malashes. But mostly no. Now,

896
00:51:40,040 --> 00:51:41,839
Speaker 1: your dog, though, is not a It is not a

897
00:51:41,880 --> 00:51:45,720
Speaker 1: pointer dog. It's not a gun dog or a retriever dog. Okay,

898
00:51:46,640 --> 00:51:50,360
Speaker 1: because this is where you do see more examples of

899
00:51:50,400 --> 00:51:53,439
Speaker 1: dogs that understand pointing and even engage in a form

900
00:51:53,440 --> 00:51:56,120
Speaker 1: of pointing themselves. And of course this is adapted over

901
00:51:56,120 --> 00:52:00,480
Speaker 1: the course of millennia, because that's how long we've spent

902
00:52:00,560 --> 00:52:03,480
Speaker 1: with dogs. They are, first of all, their social animals,

903
00:52:03,680 --> 00:52:07,080
Speaker 1: and we domesticated them and estimated twelve thousand years ago.

904
00:52:07,520 --> 00:52:09,880
Speaker 1: And uh and through that time we've not only have

905
00:52:10,120 --> 00:52:13,640
Speaker 1: you know, we encouraged this, we've selectively bred them to

906
00:52:13,760 --> 00:52:18,520
Speaker 1: follow pointing and to themselves point at spotted prey. Now,

907
00:52:18,560 --> 00:52:21,520
Speaker 1: I think our next example might first of all, it

908
00:52:21,600 --> 00:52:24,440
Speaker 1: might surprise some people, but I think also the discussion

909
00:52:24,440 --> 00:52:28,640
Speaker 1: around it might further illuminate, uh, you know, our understanding

910
00:52:28,680 --> 00:52:31,400
Speaker 1: of of of animals and pointing and why some animals

911
00:52:31,400 --> 00:52:35,240
Speaker 1: are better able to understand it. Uh. And these examples

912
00:52:35,280 --> 00:52:40,839
Speaker 1: concerned the elephant. So according to Professor Richard Byrne from

913
00:52:40,840 --> 00:52:43,160
Speaker 1: the University of St. Andrew's in Scotland in a two

914
00:52:43,160 --> 00:52:46,560
Speaker 1: thousand thirteen study, not only do elephants pick up on

915
00:52:46,600 --> 00:52:49,960
Speaker 1: the basics of of human pointing, they don't actually need

916
00:52:50,000 --> 00:52:52,640
Speaker 1: to be taught anything. They simply figure it out on

917
00:52:52,680 --> 00:52:55,719
Speaker 1: their own, like they pretty much pick it up immediately.

918
00:52:56,200 --> 00:52:59,160
Speaker 1: And elephants that had spent a lot of time around

919
00:52:59,280 --> 00:53:02,680
Speaker 1: humans where no like, they didn't have a particular edge

920
00:53:02,800 --> 00:53:06,399
Speaker 1: over wild elephants because wild elephants also figured it out

921
00:53:06,400 --> 00:53:10,840
Speaker 1: pretty quickly. Uh Burn pointed out that elephants, like humans,

922
00:53:11,239 --> 00:53:17,120
Speaker 1: live in an elaborate, complex social network, one in which support, empathy,

923
00:53:17,400 --> 00:53:21,520
Speaker 1: and help for others are critical for survival. Another wrinkle

924
00:53:21,560 --> 00:53:25,359
Speaker 1: on all this is that elephants regularly make trunk gestures themselves,

925
00:53:25,760 --> 00:53:29,200
Speaker 1: though it is unknown of these truly serve as points

926
00:53:29,200 --> 00:53:32,200
Speaker 1: in elephants society, but they maybe it's kind of an

927
00:53:32,200 --> 00:53:37,319
Speaker 1: open question. The next logical creature to consider is, of course,

928
00:53:37,360 --> 00:53:39,479
Speaker 1: the dolphin, and so I looked into this a little

929
00:53:39,480 --> 00:53:43,600
Speaker 1: bit and according to the Dolphin Communication Project one, dolphins

930
00:53:43,600 --> 00:53:47,400
Speaker 1: are able to understand pointing without being explicitly trained. They

931
00:53:47,400 --> 00:53:50,359
Speaker 1: can understand the pointing gesture even if they don't see

932
00:53:50,360 --> 00:53:53,720
Speaker 1: the arm move. The form of the point by itself

933
00:53:53,800 --> 00:53:57,400
Speaker 1: is enough information, not the motion. Dolphins can understand a

934
00:53:57,480 --> 00:54:00,520
Speaker 1: variety of pointing forms, including pointing st eight out to

935
00:54:00,560 --> 00:54:03,560
Speaker 1: the side and across the opposite side of the body,

936
00:54:04,000 --> 00:54:07,319
Speaker 1: and dolphins understand how to use the pointing gesture the

937
00:54:07,440 --> 00:54:10,560
Speaker 1: very first time they are tested. That's very interesting. That

938
00:54:10,640 --> 00:54:14,319
Speaker 1: makes me wonder about now. Obviously, I would think that

939
00:54:15,160 --> 00:54:19,000
Speaker 1: the an animal's ability to adapt to and understand pointing

940
00:54:19,080 --> 00:54:23,040
Speaker 1: gestures probably has something to do with its you know

941
00:54:23,200 --> 00:54:26,720
Speaker 1: that the nature of its natural environment. And I wonder

942
00:54:26,800 --> 00:54:32,120
Speaker 1: if pointing would have increased salience in a water environment

943
00:54:32,239 --> 00:54:36,839
Speaker 1: where where the directionality of movement is less constrained. Right,

944
00:54:37,800 --> 00:54:39,839
Speaker 1: Like on the surface of the Earth, it's often hard

945
00:54:39,880 --> 00:54:43,200
Speaker 1: to actually move up and down through space without certain conditions,

946
00:54:43,239 --> 00:54:45,200
Speaker 1: like you know, something you can climb, or a whole

947
00:54:45,239 --> 00:54:48,360
Speaker 1: you can go down, So movement directions are actually somewhat

948
00:54:48,920 --> 00:54:51,440
Speaker 1: more tightly constrained. But in the water column you just

949
00:54:51,480 --> 00:54:54,160
Speaker 1: go up down wherever. And I wonder how that affects

950
00:54:54,680 --> 00:54:58,640
Speaker 1: and animals conceptualization of space and understanding of like the

951
00:54:58,680 --> 00:55:01,960
Speaker 1: geometry of movement and at tension in that space. Well,

952
00:55:02,000 --> 00:55:05,839
Speaker 1: it's it's it's extra interesting potentially with dolphins as well, right,

953
00:55:05,840 --> 00:55:08,680
Speaker 1: because their primary means of gesticulating is going to be

954
00:55:09,000 --> 00:55:13,440
Speaker 1: with their nose, and the nose, like where you point

955
00:55:13,480 --> 00:55:15,680
Speaker 1: your nose is also the direction in which you will

956
00:55:15,719 --> 00:55:20,400
Speaker 1: probably be moving. Uh. Yes, so many additional considerations have

957
00:55:20,480 --> 00:55:22,560
Speaker 1: to be taken. I'd love to to follow up on

958
00:55:22,600 --> 00:55:26,160
Speaker 1: this with a dolphin researcher at some point. We've been

959
00:55:26,160 --> 00:55:29,200
Speaker 1: talking about, uh, reaching out to a dolphin researcher for

960
00:55:29,239 --> 00:55:32,200
Speaker 1: a while, because you know, obviously we've we've done episodes

961
00:55:32,200 --> 00:55:35,240
Speaker 1: that have touched on dolphin dolphin research in the past.

962
00:55:35,239 --> 00:55:39,960
Speaker 1: They're amazing um biology and uh, the nature of their minds.

963
00:55:40,000 --> 00:55:41,560
Speaker 1: But it would be, it would be I think they

964
00:55:41,600 --> 00:55:43,960
Speaker 1: would make for a great interview. All right, Well, looks

965
00:55:44,000 --> 00:55:46,000
Speaker 1: like we're gonna have to call it there for part

966
00:55:46,080 --> 00:55:49,920
Speaker 1: one of our journey through the Land of the Pointing Finger.

967
00:55:50,000 --> 00:55:52,080
Speaker 1: But I am so excited to come back and and

968
00:55:52,120 --> 00:55:54,439
Speaker 1: look at this for a part two. That's right, there's

969
00:55:54,480 --> 00:55:56,560
Speaker 1: a there's a lot more to discuss here, you know,

970
00:55:56,840 --> 00:56:00,360
Speaker 1: just in terms of the complexity of human ulture, and

971
00:56:00,400 --> 00:56:03,120
Speaker 1: we may get into some more animal examples as well.

972
00:56:04,200 --> 00:56:06,040
Speaker 1: In the meantime, if you would like to check out

973
00:56:06,080 --> 00:56:08,600
Speaker 1: other episodes of stuff to blow your mind, including those

974
00:56:08,600 --> 00:56:13,160
Speaker 1: recent episodes about the Medusa, past episodes about dolphins, uh,

975
00:56:13,200 --> 00:56:16,160
Speaker 1: you name it, you can find us wherever you get

976
00:56:16,200 --> 00:56:19,279
Speaker 1: your podcasts and wherever that happens to be. Make sure

977
00:56:19,320 --> 00:56:21,279
Speaker 1: you help us out. Make sure you help us out.

978
00:56:21,320 --> 00:56:25,839
Speaker 1: I'm pointing at you. Rate, review, and subscribe huge things

979
00:56:25,880 --> 00:56:29,120
Speaker 1: as always to our excellent audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson.

980
00:56:29,400 --> 00:56:30,880
Speaker 1: If you would like to get in touch with us

981
00:56:30,880 --> 00:56:33,360
Speaker 1: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest

982
00:56:33,360 --> 00:56:35,799
Speaker 1: a topic for the future, just to say hi. You

983
00:56:35,840 --> 00:56:39,359
Speaker 1: can email us at contact at stuff to Blow your

984
00:56:39,360 --> 00:56:49,240
Speaker 1: Mind dot com. Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production

985
00:56:49,320 --> 00:56:52,040
Speaker 1: of iHeart Radio. For more podcasts for my heart Radio,

986
00:56:52,239 --> 00:56:55,120
Speaker 1: visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're

987
00:56:55,120 --> 00:57:08,799
Speaker 1: listening to your favorite shows that p four ft four

988
00:57:09,480 --> 00:57:11,680
Speaker 1: po