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Speaker 1: Ah beat Force. If it doesn't work, you're just not

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Speaker 1: using enough. You're listening to Software a Gradio Special Operations,

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Speaker 1: military news and straight talk with the guys and the community,

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Speaker 1: softwarep Radio, on Time on Target and uh, I guess

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna reveal that we're, you know, recording two shows

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Speaker 1: at once here, so I do apologize this bringing this

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Speaker 1: is our Thanksgiving special. Yeah, so we're recording early so

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Speaker 1: we can all take Thanksgiving off, um, but at the

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Speaker 1: same time we're getting this podcast out. The coincide with

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Speaker 1: the release of J. T. Patton's new book, Buried in Black, which,

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Speaker 1: by the way, I will give credit to Jack. I

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Speaker 1: was like, I will just run the best of and

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Speaker 1: You're like, no, let's do two shows. Well, j T.

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Speaker 1: Patton on and and by the way, because I was

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Speaker 1: like running through stuff for these past two shows. You

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Speaker 1: hear the theme song through your headphones, right, I do?

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Speaker 1: Is that your first time hearing it? Because it's been

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Speaker 1: a while since you've been on you know, I don't remember.

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Speaker 1: I know that I've listened to the show so much

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Speaker 1: so I'm used to that. But okay, we I think

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Speaker 1: it has been with two thousand and sixteen since I

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Speaker 1: was on I guess slow kicking out the books. But

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Speaker 1: uh but yeah, I know it sounds great. Yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: been a while, as I always say, very top Gun esque.

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Speaker 1: I did ask John Burns, which you guys could visited

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Speaker 1: John Burns band dot com, b y r n E S.

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Speaker 1: You know. I was like, let's go with something that

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Speaker 1: sounds like the top Gun theme, but not so much

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Speaker 1: that we get kicked off platforms for copyright infringement. So

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Speaker 1: that was that was really the uh you know, the

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Speaker 1: essence behind the song. But anyway, I think a ton

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Speaker 1: of our audience know who J. T. Patton is UM

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Speaker 1: former counter terrorism intelligence advisor and thriller writer. And he

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Speaker 1: has a book at today as we're recording this, which

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Speaker 1: is Buried in Black, and it's the first in a

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Speaker 1: brand new series. Correct. So it's um. I had been

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Speaker 1: an indie publisher, uh and and this was the first

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Speaker 1: one that's kicked off through Kensington and through their um

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Speaker 1: their lyrical press. Uh. So it's uh so I guess

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Speaker 1: I'm to to a certain agree running with the big dogs. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And we'll just see if I can keep up. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's awesome. I've I read your previous works. Um, when

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Speaker 1: we we talked about them on the last podcast. The

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Speaker 1: new book, Buried in Black, I have it, um two

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Speaker 1: pages into it, which maybe it's a good thing. I

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Speaker 1: can't blow the ending for anybody, UM because I don't know.

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Speaker 1: But I think I think just like your last books,

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Speaker 1: which I was fascinated by and the kind of take

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Speaker 1: you had on counter terrorism operations and intelligence operations, this

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Speaker 1: one is definitely in the same vein. It's not the

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Speaker 1: same experience you would get from reading, um, let's say,

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Speaker 1: an Adult and Fury novel, or a Jack Murphy novel

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Speaker 1: for that for that matter, I mean this is something different. Uh,

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Speaker 1: it's something darker too. UM. So I'll let you tell

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Speaker 1: us a little bit about what the book is about. UM.

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Speaker 1: I just well another Well, go ahead and you tell

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Speaker 1: us about the book and then we'll get into some

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Speaker 1: other things. Okay, sounds good. Well. The one thing that

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Speaker 1: you did bring up that was I think kind of

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Speaker 1: interesting is you know, putting yourself out there and Dalton

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Speaker 1: Fury and of the books that are out there in

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Speaker 1: the military thriller genre UM or sub genre. I think

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Speaker 1: that I get more accolades from people who like those

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Speaker 1: type of books of those authors you know yourself included.

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Speaker 1: They are darker, they are a lot more gritty, they

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Speaker 1: are hard hitting. UM. I'd say that's where I fit

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Speaker 1: in is in that in that real gray and harass

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Speaker 1: and and really a lot of the brutality. UM. I

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Speaker 1: think to a large degree, that's where there wasn't a

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Speaker 1: huge palette for some of the earlier works that I

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Speaker 1: had UM in the publishing world because quite frankly, I

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Speaker 1: said it was just too dark. It's waving no no

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Speaker 1: and UM. But you know, I think that's what I'm

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Speaker 1: hoping to bring of it. UM. I'm hoping to bring

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Speaker 1: the you know, my background being from the intelligent side

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Speaker 1: and miss and support. UM. It's not like the espionage

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Speaker 1: novels of UH, you know John McRae UM and some

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Speaker 1: of the others that are a lot more you know,

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Speaker 1: the smiley, long drawn out, not a whole lot of

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Speaker 1: action going on. UM. But yet it's also not quite

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Speaker 1: just born you know, where you've got this guy who's

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Speaker 1: just unstoppable running everywhere. It's how do you fit intelligence

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Speaker 1: into ops, put them on the ground, and what happens

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Speaker 1: when some of the intel operators are called to UH

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Speaker 1: to work direct action really it's a lot of I

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Speaker 1: think what we've seen in the last six to eight

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Speaker 1: years with the wars that are going on. UM. But

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Speaker 1: I think that there, for whatever reason, the genres of

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Speaker 1: subgenres are still kind of split. Uh. You know, you've

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Speaker 1: either got to be one or you've got to be

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Speaker 1: the other one. And as as we know, the adage

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Speaker 1: of intel is ops, ops is intel UM. I think

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Speaker 1: that's that's where I like to be. Um Buried Black

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Speaker 1: is very similar. Only when I was starting out the

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Speaker 1: new series with Kensington, you know, they wanted something different, um,

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Speaker 1: something different from what's out there. And but yeah, they

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Speaker 1: wanted to have kind of what I brought to the table, uh,

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Speaker 1: with the intelligence kind of fusion side of things. And

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Speaker 1: I think there's plenty of books out there with with

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Speaker 1: Delta Force operators A S A D and UM, sorry,

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Speaker 1: I gotta dudes doing aircraft takedowns and direct action raids

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Speaker 1: in Afghanistan or you know. And some of those authors

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Speaker 1: are very good. You know, I've spoken, you know, very

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Speaker 1: highly of you know, the Dalton Fury books. I love them.

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Speaker 1: I think what your books are a little bit more about,

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Speaker 1: UM is intelligence driven operations. Uh. And I guess I think.

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Speaker 1: I think what you're writing about is what a lot

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Speaker 1: of people see as the future of counter terrorism into

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Speaker 1: the next decade. Is what you're talking about, that fusion

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Speaker 1: of intelligence and operations, and it ends up in a

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Speaker 1: very great place. Yeah, I think so. And I think

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Speaker 1: as you're bringing into the technology to things and and

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Speaker 1: again you know the the Sale Team six and Delta books.

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Speaker 1: I love my reading myself, but I couldn't come up

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Speaker 1: with something that was that much different. The other thing

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Speaker 1: of it is is that I, you know, like many others,

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Speaker 1: I'm I'm held down by um publication review and so

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Speaker 1: there is a certain degree of what I can't even

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Speaker 1: put out there. And so one of the things that

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Speaker 1: was nice about writing about Task Force Orange of the

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Speaker 1: intelligence support activity is it's one of the few Jaysack

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Speaker 1: elements that I wasn't formally read into. So I felt

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Speaker 1: like I had a little bit of leeway there where

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Speaker 1: even if maybe I had worked with a program office

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Speaker 1: or something like that and that's the type of thing

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Speaker 1: that they were doing, I thought that I could take

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Speaker 1: enough of the history things that are out there in

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Speaker 1: the public and and just you know, put out there, Okay,

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Speaker 1: here's what this element does UM and then put it

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Speaker 1: into kind of a newer crafted type of a storyline

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Speaker 1: that that takes you know, the U, A v. S,

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Speaker 1: the UH, the the hacking and the jamming, and then

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Speaker 1: still bring in you know, regular human tradecraft and of

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Speaker 1: course the direct action that's part of it. So it

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Speaker 1: really kind of a fun place to be. Well. I

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Speaker 1: was wondering if you could explain for the listeners. In

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Speaker 1: the beginning of the book, you mentioned that essentially what

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Speaker 1: your book is about, what Buried in Black is about,

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Speaker 1: is about waved unacknowledged special access programs, and I was

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Speaker 1: wondering if you could explain to people what does that

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Speaker 1: What does that term mean when you hear that. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I think most people are familiar with the term top secret,

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Speaker 1: but you're you're talking about something a little bit deeper,

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Speaker 1: more and more compartmentalized than that. Even yeah, very much so. So,

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Speaker 1: I mean, as you know, with the various classifications, and

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Speaker 1: then you have various you know, read ins to certain programs,

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Speaker 1: and there are some programs UM where you get into

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Speaker 1: acknowledged where you know, people do recognize. So you're now

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Speaker 1: getting into more of the covert activities UM where there's

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Speaker 1: some things that people are just not going to acknowledge,

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Speaker 1: and there are certain levels of this, so that deepness

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Speaker 1: into those operations where even uh, you know, congressional oversight

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Speaker 1: isn't going to be part of it. So it's you know,

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Speaker 1: it's it's unacknowledged. We're not going to acknowledge that those

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Speaker 1: things exist, and it's waved from having any oversight. So

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Speaker 1: this is kind of the deep in the bowels, so

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Speaker 1: to speak of programs. Um. I laugh, because there were certain, um,

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Speaker 1: certain buildings that I might have gone into in the

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Speaker 1: past to do some work. And even though you're in

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Speaker 1: the skiff, even though you're at a certain level of compartmentalization,

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Speaker 1: you know, you're still kind of brought into like the

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Speaker 1: broom closet, uh, to have some discussions about some programs

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Speaker 1: and some projects that are going on. And that's, you know,

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Speaker 1: really from that advantage that I'm taking, it is you've

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Speaker 1: got what everybody else knows, even when they think that

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Speaker 1: they're running kind of dark projects. But then there's that

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Speaker 1: other layer, which is the hey, let's get this guy

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Speaker 1: in there. And and I think that's where some of

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Speaker 1: this ambiguity and the confusion even comes in and operating

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Speaker 1: is there are times when you don't even ask what

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Speaker 1: who who is the owner of this program? Um? You know,

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Speaker 1: you don't even ask what the mission is of it.

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Speaker 1: You just you know, somebody brought you in and said, hey,

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Speaker 1: grab this guy. You know. UM in my case, they

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Speaker 1: may have said, you know, he can help you get

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Speaker 1: in or get out of a place, or do some

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Speaker 1: of the um COVID support. And you know, you don't

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Speaker 1: even ask who the guys are. You may be introduced,

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Speaker 1: you may see some familiar faces, you just don't ask.

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Speaker 1: So I think that where the books are that I

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Speaker 1: write is you know, what if you're tasked, what if

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Speaker 1: you really don't know what it is or you kind

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Speaker 1: of get a general sense of it, but you know,

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Speaker 1: you just kind of going through that operation uh mentality

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Speaker 1: mindset of the environment where you know, don't ask, don't tell,

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Speaker 1: and you just kind of assume, Hey, have you've been

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Speaker 1: brought into a loop? You know you're in the enough

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Speaker 1: note that you need to be in well with the

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Speaker 1: unacknowledged program. I think it's interesting that the people who

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Speaker 1: are read onto it, they cannot respond with no comment.

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Speaker 1: They have to respond, I don't know what the hell

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Speaker 1: you're talking about I've never heard of that. Even if

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Speaker 1: it's it could be their own boss in certain situations

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Speaker 1: that asks them, hey, what do you have you ever

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Speaker 1: heard of this program? And they have to look at

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Speaker 1: their boss dead in the eye and say, I've never

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Speaker 1: heard of that before, right, right, And again, I've never

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Speaker 1: been in those situations where somebody delineates that this is

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Speaker 1: one of those things that you have to say no to.

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Speaker 1: It's just they're just some things that you're involved with

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Speaker 1: where you just you just know, you just you shut

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Speaker 1: the hell up. You don't say anything to anybody, which

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Speaker 1: is hard because you might be involved with it with

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Speaker 1: somebody else and they might ask you and say, hey,

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Speaker 1: I know that you're involved with that. That's where the

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Speaker 1: counterintelligence standpoint goes in. You're like, you know, I don't

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Speaker 1: even know if you're read into this too. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's kind of informal, and so you end up going

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Speaker 1: back checking with somebody and um saying, hey, you know,

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Speaker 1: does this person you know have that need to know

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Speaker 1: or are they involved also speaking to those uh those

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Speaker 1: conversations and the mop closet and the broom closet. I

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Speaker 1: I remember we had recently on Sean Parnell and we

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Speaker 1: were having a conversation about weird stuff, weird stuff that's

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Speaker 1: kind of beyond what we were typically refer to as

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Speaker 1: tier one, tier one operators, that they're like these little

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Speaker 1: levels above that. We're having this conversation about how sometimes

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Speaker 1: you know, you're you know, arranger patrol is out doing

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Speaker 1: something and they get told, hey, swing by this grid

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Speaker 1: location and meet this dude, and some guy just comes

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Speaker 1: walking down off the side of the mountain, white guy

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Speaker 1: with a beard, punches up something on his laptop and

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Speaker 1: gives it to you and you take it back to

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Speaker 1: the base for somebody. It's like these weird things that

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Speaker 1: come into your operations laterally, like hey, while you're out there,

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Speaker 1: uh go do this, or drop this guy off, or

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Speaker 1: take this one guy out with you, and he's gonna

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Speaker 1: go walk around the market while you're out of your

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Speaker 1: patrol and then come back and you bring him back

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Speaker 1: with you. And it's just weird ship for lack of

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Speaker 1: a better term, but it's actual operational stuff that's taking place,

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Speaker 1: that's being punched into normal operations and in a lateral fashion,

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Speaker 1: right right, And to be clear, you know, I was

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Speaker 1: never the guy who was walking out there, you know

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Speaker 1: that Mr Smith or that Mr White, UM that just

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Speaker 1: happened to be. You know, my role in in you know,

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Speaker 1: covert support and UM and and mission support activities were

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Speaker 1: how to get that guy into that place, or how

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Speaker 1: to get that guy out of that place, how to

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Speaker 1: make them look like the local UM or if they

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Speaker 1: have to have some money coming in or going out,

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Speaker 1: you know, what are we doing to support that UM?

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Speaker 1: And so I think they're too you know, coming from

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Speaker 1: the intelligence side, I know that I'm not the same

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Speaker 1: level of operator as those guys are going to be.

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Speaker 1: And so when you are having those discussions, you know,

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Speaker 1: you just know there's a guy who's sitting there at

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Speaker 1: the end of the table or sitting in there in

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Speaker 1: the corner, and they're saying, hey, can you do this?

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Speaker 1: Can you do this? And you're kind of like, well,

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Speaker 1: I think I can, but you recognize that guy in

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Speaker 1: the room is going to be the person that's got

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Speaker 1: to actually do it. So it's it's got a little

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Speaker 1: bit of a pressure. But that's also where you know,

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Speaker 1: you whatever you're saying that you can do or whatever

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Speaker 1: you figure out, you've got to figure out how that

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Speaker 1: can happen without even asking for a lot of help

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Speaker 1: to get um, you know, whatever needs to be done.

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Speaker 1: It's odd to think about, but I mean it. I

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Speaker 1: tell these stories sometimes about when I was in the

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Speaker 1: Army and then I'd be asked to do things that

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Speaker 1: I felt were beyond my capabilities. But it was also

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Speaker 1: great because they put this responsibility on you. Like being

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Speaker 1: asked to do aerial platform support with a sniper rifle

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Speaker 1: in Afghanistan. I'm like, what the hell I've never done?

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Speaker 1: How does that work? And you have to like ask

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Speaker 1: your squad leader to teach you how to do that

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Speaker 1: real quick before you actually go out and do it.

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Speaker 1: I mean, did you encounter situations like that in in

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Speaker 1: the intelligence world? Um, like what you're just mentioning where

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Speaker 1: some guy comes to you and it's like, hey, can

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Speaker 1: you do this and that? And it's kind of like

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Speaker 1: it's all on you, brother, Like you got to figure

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Speaker 1: it out and hopefully you don't screw it up. And

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Speaker 1: especially if it's a compartmentalized program. I mean, you can't

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Speaker 1: ask for anyone else's help. Yeah, you know, there's a

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Speaker 1: saying that Richard Branson says I saw him one time,

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Speaker 1: which is you know, somebody presents you with an opportunity,

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Speaker 1: you know, sees it and figure out how to do

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Speaker 1: it later. Um, you're messing with people's lives. But admittedly

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Speaker 1: there are a number of times when I said, oh,

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Speaker 1: absolutely we can do that. Um. And if it's getting

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Speaker 1: somebody in discreetly into a certain country or setting up

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Speaker 1: a business in another location, um, yeah, yeah, we can

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Speaker 1: do that, no problem to walk as a serious pucker

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Speaker 1: factor of well let's figure it out. Um. But I

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Speaker 1: think that while there may be a little bit of

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Speaker 1: you know, some ego to that, or just a desire

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Speaker 1: to be part of something and doing it, I think

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Speaker 1: there was a realistic element to it where I did

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Speaker 1: believe that I would do everything possible and go further

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Speaker 1: than most other people would be so that if I

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Speaker 1: said no, I can't do it and they went to

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Speaker 1: somebody else, I firmly believe that for the type of

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Speaker 1: work that I was doing, I was going to be

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Speaker 1: one of the top that they could find to get

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Speaker 1: that stuff done. The protagonist of your new book, Buried

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Speaker 1: in Black Uh, is a guy who served in you know,

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Speaker 1: one of these compartmentalized programs, was working for unit that's

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Speaker 1: commonly referred to as an Intelligent Support activity. UM. We'd

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Speaker 1: sometimes call the call them t FO task Force Orange. Uh.

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Speaker 1: You know, all the Special Operations units like Rangers were

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Speaker 1: Task Force read. They all had colors. I know you

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Speaker 1: know this, Uh, but some of our listeners might not.

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Speaker 1: Task Force Orange was I s A UM or a

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Speaker 1: certain part of I S A and UM. That's honestly,

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Speaker 1: that's probably the organization within Special Operations that we talked

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Speaker 1: the least about. I mean, because they're very small, and

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Speaker 1: they're very secretive, and you don't necessarily know what those

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Speaker 1: guys are up to. So I mean, can you tell

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Speaker 1: us a little bit about what this organization is? Sure? UM,

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Speaker 1: I'll say what what my general public understanding is of

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Speaker 1: the organization UM, which is in you know, it's it's

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Speaker 1: intelligence support to activities or it's actually conducting those activities

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Speaker 1: that largely grew out of UM, the the hostage taking

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Speaker 1: in Iran years back, UM, and and afterwards, you know,

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Speaker 1: there are some talk of can you focus on a

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Speaker 1: unit that can do that type of support UM, focusing

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Speaker 1: not only on the human intelligence side, but also bringing

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Speaker 1: the technology. Uh so the signals intelligence, you know, communications intelligence.

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Speaker 1: So you're wrapping that up to be that entity that

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Speaker 1: you can do advanced force operations UH with and be

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Speaker 1: the kind of kind of the first guys in UM

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Speaker 1: blending into that social fabric UM, but also doing a

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Speaker 1: lot of the real nitty gritty technical things. So if

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Speaker 1: you've read any of the books about killing Pablo UM,

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Speaker 1: you know, the Pablo Escobar and the support that they

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Speaker 1: gave to a d e A UM. There's a lot

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Speaker 1: of work that has been done and reported on about

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Speaker 1: Lebanon UM against his blah. So that type of work

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Speaker 1: is really you know, it seems to blend in now

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Speaker 1: to a lot of missions that that DELTA might take on.

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Speaker 1: But there was more of the focus at the time

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Speaker 1: of the signals intelligence capability from you know what's been

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Speaker 1: reported out there. I mean, in addition to the operational

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Speaker 1: preparation of the environment stuff that they've been brought on

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Speaker 1: to do. UM. Correct me if I'm wrong, But one

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Speaker 1: of the main reasons why they were created was because

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Speaker 1: the Army needed tactical intelligence as opposed to the strategic

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Speaker 1: intelligence that the CIA usually specializes in. Yeah, that's my

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Speaker 1: understanding too, and that it did grow from the Army

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Speaker 1: and then was later UM rolled up under Jay Sock. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: UM do you I mean, I wonder if you could

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Speaker 1: comment on the overlapping nature of some of these missions,

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Speaker 1: because when you talk about some of the other Jay

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Speaker 1: Sock units, UM, even Ranger Battalion, I mean, all these

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Speaker 1: elements have their own reconnaissance capabilities. UM. You know, Dev

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Speaker 1: Group has Black Squadron, Uh, Delta Force has recky guys,

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Speaker 1: recky troops, UM, Rangers have you know, even Ranger Battalion

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Speaker 1: has their own ciging guys. Now, UM, how does how

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Speaker 1: does a unit like I s A fit in in

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Speaker 1: today's world and today's special operations structure? Well, again, you know,

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Speaker 1: in my in my opinion, to a large degree, and

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Speaker 1: from what I've seen, you know, one of the challenges

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Speaker 1: that special operations community has today, as they said, you know,

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Speaker 1: they want a Harvard graduate that can win a bar fight. UM.

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Speaker 1: In many ways, I think that you will find that

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Speaker 1: I s A. UM, you know, candidate UM would fit

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Speaker 1: a little bit more of that than than some of

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Speaker 1: the other units. If you think about say Delta, where

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Speaker 1: a lot of people are coming up from Ranger Battalion. UM,

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Speaker 1: maybe through Special Forces. You know. One of the reasons

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Speaker 1: that I created Drake Wolf. The way I did is

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Speaker 1: that he was a ranger tabbed sot A UM and

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Speaker 1: that's something also that you don't hear too much about,

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Speaker 1: but these are you know, the SIGAN communications specialists that

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Speaker 1: are trained to you know, conduct communications intelligence, but then

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Speaker 1: can also engage UM, especially if you've gone through UM UH,

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Speaker 1: if you've got the ranger tab UM. So in this case,

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Speaker 1: you know, I'm taking of what I think, and I

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Speaker 1: think that this is also something that will evolve more

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Speaker 1: and more as the roles are increasingly technical. Is you're

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Speaker 1: going to have to figure out how to groom individuals

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Speaker 1: that are technically savvy UM and kind of run them

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Speaker 1: up through ranks where they can, you know, get into

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Speaker 1: a specialized unit like that. And I'm not saying that,

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Speaker 1: you know, any of the other special mission units don't

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Speaker 1: have people like that, UM, not at all. But I

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Speaker 1: think that if you're looking for that specialized type capability

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Speaker 1: to go in, I think that you're going to find

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Speaker 1: that there will probably need to recruit increasing batch of

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Speaker 1: those type of people. And that's also one of the

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Speaker 1: reasons that I wanted to write about the UM this

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Speaker 1: in this series of a book. And this is more

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Speaker 1: kind of a personal um matter was that when I

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Speaker 1: went through Army RROWTC in college, everybody was artillery there.

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Speaker 1: So I never really understood what the full gamut was

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Speaker 1: of opportunities for me and UH and and I I

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Speaker 1: hold that a little bit begrudge Lee because I did

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Speaker 1: have UH an interest in intelligence. I did have an

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Speaker 1: interest in technology, but nobody could really tell me what

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Speaker 1: that was. So one of the reasons I also wanted

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Speaker 1: to put this out there was there are a lot

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Speaker 1: of young readers who might be so inclined to to

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Speaker 1: look at the military, and I want them to also

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Speaker 1: be able to say, Okay, you could be a gamer,

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Speaker 1: you could be a hacker, you can still want to

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Speaker 1: do this type of thing, but let me nudge you

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Speaker 1: a little bit into an area and and a bit

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Speaker 1: of a pathway of how you can get into it.

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Speaker 1: Which is why I showed some of the backstory of

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Speaker 1: Drake Wolfe the bird Dog, in how he you know,

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Speaker 1: kind of came to the ranks of you know, the

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Speaker 1: back door, so to speak, into the special Operations community

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Speaker 1: and UH into being able to move up to the

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Speaker 1: tier one. And so there's a number of elements in

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Speaker 1: the story where you know, people are you know, uh,

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Speaker 1: ribbing him for being support, which if you talked to

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Speaker 1: any SADA guys, it's you know, the one thing that

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Speaker 1: they absolutely hate hearing is that their support. Um. But

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Speaker 1: that's you know, you know that's that's what it is.

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Speaker 1: That's how it is. And uh and you know he

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Speaker 1: holds his own you know something that an Army Intel

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Speaker 1: friend of mine uh told me. He's like, you know,

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Speaker 1: for for guys like you, uh talking to me in

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Speaker 1: my case, like guys like you Special operations guys, your

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Speaker 1: pathway is pretty clear and laid out in front of you.

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Speaker 1: Uh that you know, if you want to go and

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Speaker 1: be a ranger, there's you know, you go to the

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Speaker 1: Ranger indoctrination program, you go to Ranger of Battalion, you

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Speaker 1: do your thing, you have a ranger school. You know,

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Speaker 1: if you want to keep going stay in the army,

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Speaker 1: it's very clear how you go to be a jasock operator.

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Speaker 1: You go to Delta Force selection, you do the long walk,

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Speaker 1: you go through the operator's training course. Like it's all

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Speaker 1: very clear. But if you're in that intelligence world, it's

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Speaker 1: not clear at all. It's just you know, if you

428
00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:52,840
Speaker 1: go into Army Intel and you're a smart guy, you're

429
00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:55,399
Speaker 1: in good shape, you know. You you go past the

430
00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:58,080
Speaker 1: ranger school or whatever that you just get sucked up

431
00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:01,800
Speaker 1: into some program and nobody hears from Again, Yeah, I agree,

432
00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:04,080
Speaker 1: and uh, and that was one of my grapes, you know,

433
00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:06,760
Speaker 1: even in what I learned, you know this like twenty

434
00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:10,720
Speaker 1: five years now, back now, in college, UM intelligence was

435
00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:14,120
Speaker 1: order of battle, you know, so you're still looking at

436
00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:16,440
Speaker 1: troops size. They didn't get into a lot of the

437
00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:20,920
Speaker 1: nitty gritties of what intel could be, what the capabilities

438
00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:23,679
Speaker 1: were for counterintelligence. And I think that a lot of

439
00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:27,000
Speaker 1: people who even do go through those schools still find

440
00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:31,840
Speaker 1: it a little bit challenging to see UM where they

441
00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:34,200
Speaker 1: can go, because again, you're getting into the element of

442
00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:38,520
Speaker 1: highly secretive capabilities. Most of the times when you're getting

443
00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:41,520
Speaker 1: into the signals intelligence side, you're dealing with N S,

444
00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:44,960
Speaker 1: A and and you're taking things to a whole new

445
00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:47,040
Speaker 1: level because now all of a sudden you're talking about

446
00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:50,120
Speaker 1: not only is somebody coming in the secret the top

447
00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:54,920
Speaker 1: secret clearance level being compartmentalized in certain you know, read

448
00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:59,600
Speaker 1: and areas, but then for some you're going straight into

449
00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:03,240
Speaker 1: polyg raft area. And I mean I would encourage people,

450
00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:07,720
Speaker 1: although they are fairly well redacted. If you go and

451
00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:11,119
Speaker 1: read the in scomb annual reports UM that have been

452
00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:15,080
Speaker 1: declassified from like the seventies and eighties, you can start

453
00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:19,320
Speaker 1: to glean some ideas of what Army Intelligence Command is

454
00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:21,320
Speaker 1: up to or has been up to in the past,

455
00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:24,439
Speaker 1: and and see that this stuff is out there. Um,

456
00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:30,280
Speaker 1: there are some interesting programs, some interesting things going on there. Yeah, yeah, absolutely,

457
00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:32,639
Speaker 1: and there there is if you do the searches, even

458
00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:40,239
Speaker 1: for Intelligence Support Activity FOG how it originally uh, the

459
00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:43,920
Speaker 1: Field Observation Group UM where that kind of derived. That's

460
00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:45,960
Speaker 1: that's kind of the pathway that you can get without

461
00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:48,800
Speaker 1: you know, anything being disclosed too much. I wanted to

462
00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:51,199
Speaker 1: ask you too about, um, some of the things that

463
00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:56,000
Speaker 1: you see and buried in black UM, where you have

464
00:25:56,240 --> 00:26:00,760
Speaker 1: a intelligence professional who is literally just off the grid,

465
00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:04,360
Speaker 1: like and in in Drake's case, in the protagonist case,

466
00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:08,080
Speaker 1: I mean they fake his death basically. Are there cases

467
00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:10,720
Speaker 1: like that where things like that actually happened where it's

468
00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:14,600
Speaker 1: like happy Birthday, Frankenstein, the old you is dead and

469
00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:17,320
Speaker 1: you're you're literally just a new person. I mean, does

470
00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:25,480
Speaker 1: stuff like that happen in real life? Yeah? Um, you know,

471
00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:27,520
Speaker 1: I don't know of anything like that. I'll I'll just

472
00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:31,679
Speaker 1: say this, I have never been asked to bring somebody

473
00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:35,480
Speaker 1: back from the dead or to you know, put documents

474
00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:39,000
Speaker 1: together or anything like that. So whether it happens or not,

475
00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:42,560
Speaker 1: I've got no idea, I think, and I did think that.

476
00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:45,159
Speaker 1: I addressed that also in the book where you know,

477
00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:47,679
Speaker 1: you've got somebody that's thinking, it's such a great idea

478
00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:49,720
Speaker 1: that we're just gonna, you know, kill off Drake Will

479
00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:51,560
Speaker 1: if he'll be able to operate in the shadows like

480
00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:54,160
Speaker 1: so many of these novels, and my old hero Shawn

481
00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:57,159
Speaker 1: Havens is in there. He's like, are you kidding? This

482
00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:00,720
Speaker 1: is so stupid because here you are, You're still gonna

483
00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:02,920
Speaker 1: be living in the US. He goes, what are you

484
00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:05,119
Speaker 1: gonna want to do? And it's a class reunion? What

485
00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:06,360
Speaker 1: do you want to do? And it's you know, it's

486
00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:08,640
Speaker 1: a family dinner or something like that. He goes, you

487
00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:11,359
Speaker 1: are cut off from everything, and there's really no way

488
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:13,720
Speaker 1: that you can escape that unless you are entirely off

489
00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:16,840
Speaker 1: the grid. I think. So it's like even makes that

490
00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:18,800
Speaker 1: comment that like, look, if you're going to remain in

491
00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:22,360
Speaker 1: the intelligence business, you need to capitalize on your relationships

492
00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:25,440
Speaker 1: with people. How the hell are you going to come

493
00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:27,399
Speaker 1: back from the dead and ask somebody for a favor,

494
00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:30,399
Speaker 1: ask somebody for a job or whatever whatever in the case.

495
00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:33,440
Speaker 1: And these guys are gonna be working still around the Beltway.

496
00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:35,879
Speaker 1: And so you know, how is it that you're you're

497
00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:39,120
Speaker 1: gonna have you know, people delivering to your house every day,

498
00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:40,760
Speaker 1: or you know, are you not gonna ever go into

499
00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:43,160
Speaker 1: public and and see anybody. So those are the types

500
00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:45,439
Speaker 1: of things. I mean, I think that it's an easy

501
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:48,680
Speaker 1: way for us to you know, make a hero seem

502
00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:50,920
Speaker 1: like they're operating in the dark a little bit more.

503
00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:55,280
Speaker 1: But I think what you have, um more commonly is

504
00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:59,320
Speaker 1: that individual who has just rolled up into a commercial

505
00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:02,919
Speaker 1: type active and uh and and they're able to just

506
00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:05,000
Speaker 1: you know, go out more the law and have a family.

507
00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:07,960
Speaker 1: That's a lot more plausible than you know, maybe those

508
00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:11,520
Speaker 1: onesie twosies that could still be roaming you know, out

509
00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:16,200
Speaker 1: out in Europe, Africa or Asia. That's you know, completely

510
00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:18,840
Speaker 1: off the grid, and it's you know, it's that's it

511
00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:22,960
Speaker 1: makes great stories. It's uh, it's funny because I knew

512
00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:26,040
Speaker 1: a few people who went to the selection course for

513
00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:29,720
Speaker 1: I s a UM and a few of the people

514
00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:33,040
Speaker 1: who actually got who became, you know, operators in the unit.

515
00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:34,919
Speaker 1: I mean some of them were very smart guys. A

516
00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:37,800
Speaker 1: few of them were like bacon eating crusader types. Is like,

517
00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:42,040
Speaker 1: oh my god. Really, but um, it's funny because some

518
00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:44,200
Speaker 1: sometimes they come back and the guys who get selected,

519
00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:46,400
Speaker 1: they come back and they already have this bullshit cover

520
00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:48,160
Speaker 1: story like oh, I'm getting out of the army and

521
00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:50,720
Speaker 1: going to law school. It's like, no, you're not. Why

522
00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:52,520
Speaker 1: are you even trying to pull the fleece over my

523
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:56,520
Speaker 1: eyes with this? I you know, I saw there. There's

524
00:28:56,520 --> 00:28:59,680
Speaker 1: a reason I gotta be careful how I phrase this.

525
00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:06,040
Speaker 1: But there was an individual who was supposedly covered in

526
00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:15,080
Speaker 1: a US department. Um. Okay, so you know, maybe one

527
00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:17,520
Speaker 1: that we might think about in in you know, the

528
00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:21,320
Speaker 1: Upper North or something like that of the US, but

529
00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:23,960
Speaker 1: he was still residing in Washington, d C. On his

530
00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:28,080
Speaker 1: LinkedIn profile. Um. And there are just a lot of

531
00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:30,760
Speaker 1: things that don't match. And you know, one of my

532
00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:34,720
Speaker 1: jobs was to make sure that something did match. And uh.

533
00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:37,080
Speaker 1: And I think that's still kind of a frustration I

534
00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:40,280
Speaker 1: have with the community sometimes in slapping these covers together.

535
00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:42,840
Speaker 1: You know, you get on special roster and someone's like, well,

536
00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:45,360
Speaker 1: what do we make this person? Well we plug them

537
00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:48,200
Speaker 1: into this to that. But if you look at things

538
00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:50,760
Speaker 1: that they're posting on social media. You know, I think

539
00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:52,960
Speaker 1: you even reported on that about some of these guys

540
00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:57,000
Speaker 1: using the run tracking out in the Middle East. Yeah,

541
00:29:57,120 --> 00:29:59,640
Speaker 1: and so you know, here you've got somebody's posting on

542
00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:02,680
Speaker 1: social media just conducted a run, I just did a

543
00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:05,640
Speaker 1: ride or a swim or something. But it doesn't fit

544
00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:08,200
Speaker 1: at all what it's saying that they're supposed to be doing.

545
00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:11,080
Speaker 1: So you've got to fit the cover to their actual

546
00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:13,720
Speaker 1: pattern of life. And you know that's how we made

547
00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:17,600
Speaker 1: things seamless. Um, all I can say is today you

548
00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:18,880
Speaker 1: get what you pay for. And there's a lot of

549
00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:21,760
Speaker 1: g S twelves that are doing that work. I mean,

550
00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:26,680
Speaker 1: what's your take on, you know, Army of the let's

551
00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:28,840
Speaker 1: just say, the Department of the Fence trying to do cover.

552
00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:31,360
Speaker 1: Because I've had people come to me and say that

553
00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:33,880
Speaker 1: the d O D and Jay sock and they don't

554
00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:35,400
Speaker 1: really know how to do cover at the end of

555
00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:37,920
Speaker 1: the day. And that's really something that's the purview of

556
00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:40,959
Speaker 1: the of the c i A. You know, I even

557
00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:45,160
Speaker 1: I would even say that the CIA struggles. Um, these

558
00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:49,440
Speaker 1: guys are you know, Jay Sock is in the is

559
00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:52,600
Speaker 1: in the military business. C i A is in the

560
00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:56,280
Speaker 1: intelligence business. When you're covering somebody, you've got to be

561
00:30:56,320 --> 00:31:00,000
Speaker 1: in the business business. And so you have to understand

562
00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:01,880
Speaker 1: and that to walk like a duck talk like a

563
00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:05,000
Speaker 1: duck in the business community, you've got to understand it

564
00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:08,040
Speaker 1: from that business mindset. You've got to understand. There are

565
00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:11,880
Speaker 1: more uh cover entities that have been rolled up around

566
00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:15,480
Speaker 1: the world, not because counter intelligence found him, but because

567
00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:20,000
Speaker 1: the tax man found him. Um, I've got in you know,

568
00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:23,280
Speaker 1: in buried in black. I've got I think in chapter one,

569
00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:25,840
Speaker 1: you know, Drake is working on an IBM think pad.

570
00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:29,520
Speaker 1: But that IBM think pad was like an older version.

571
00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:33,240
Speaker 1: It had been procured from India and kind of routed up.

572
00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:37,760
Speaker 1: So even the technology that you're bringing and carrying around, Uh,

573
00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:40,280
Speaker 1: he had to have some old, beat up shoes. He

574
00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:42,680
Speaker 1: had to have pants that weren't you know, coming from

575
00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:46,120
Speaker 1: you know, weren't five eleven's. Uh, you know, it's it's

576
00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:49,160
Speaker 1: got to look like you're supposed to look like. And

577
00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:51,400
Speaker 1: I think that's missed because that's hard work. Those are

578
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:54,440
Speaker 1: hard details. I think the last time we talked, you know,

579
00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:58,400
Speaker 1: two thousand and sixteen, I had shared and of how

580
00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:00,640
Speaker 1: at one point somebody decided, Okay, we want to go

581
00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:03,480
Speaker 1: into this particular country and we're going to kind of

582
00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:06,720
Speaker 1: put our stuff in a date truck, and we asked, well,

583
00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:08,239
Speaker 1: what kind of dates are they going to be? Well,

584
00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:09,680
Speaker 1: what do you mean what kind of dates are going

585
00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:11,280
Speaker 1: to be? Well? Are they the type of dates that

586
00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:14,800
Speaker 1: are imported? The type of dates that are exported? Because

587
00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:17,760
Speaker 1: if you're bringing certain table dates from this particular country

588
00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:21,560
Speaker 1: their crap, and anybody that says, okay, you're bringing this in,

589
00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:23,479
Speaker 1: it's going to get the ice scrutiny, like why the

590
00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:26,640
Speaker 1: hell are you bringing this in? Um. So that's you know,

591
00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:28,280
Speaker 1: those type of things that you've just got to know

592
00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:32,200
Speaker 1: the subtle nuances and in fairness to these these these elements,

593
00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:35,800
Speaker 1: they're busy doing what they have to do, and sometimes

594
00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:38,080
Speaker 1: you have to bring in experts that understand how to

595
00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:40,960
Speaker 1: make things really work like that pattern of life would

596
00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:43,760
Speaker 1: be in that country. I was wondering if we could

597
00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:46,560
Speaker 1: get a little bit into the actual uh, meat and

598
00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:49,720
Speaker 1: potatoes of buried in Black because I think the plot

599
00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:53,400
Speaker 1: is very interesting to me in that it's about allies

600
00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:56,640
Speaker 1: of ours in Iraq that feel we sold them out

601
00:32:57,200 --> 00:33:02,800
Speaker 1: and they're retaliating against UH, primarily against US Special Forces

602
00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:06,000
Speaker 1: here in the United States and some of the places

603
00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:11,080
Speaker 1: you write about, um in your novel, where American SF

604
00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:15,000
Speaker 1: guys are attacked and Delta operators you know, retired or current,

605
00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:18,680
Speaker 1: are attacked, or places I've actually been and had beers

606
00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:23,080
Speaker 1: with retired Delta Force operators and I'm like, holy shit,

607
00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:26,280
Speaker 1: I know exactly what bar he's referencing, uh down in

608
00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:30,640
Speaker 1: North Carolina and uh. You know, when I've been to

609
00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:32,560
Speaker 1: some of these places, I've had the same thoughts that

610
00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:35,720
Speaker 1: clearly you had, that like, holy sh it, Like for

611
00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:38,720
Speaker 1: somebody who is up to no good, Um, this is

612
00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:44,280
Speaker 1: a soft target. Yeah. Um, I mean it is what

613
00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:46,880
Speaker 1: it is. There are when if I go down to

614
00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:50,960
Speaker 1: Tampa to see my friends, I know exactly what bars

615
00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:54,440
Speaker 1: are going to be in so everybody else. Um, the

616
00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:57,600
Speaker 1: same thing goes with Fayetteville or any other place. Um.

617
00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:02,440
Speaker 1: People are creatures of habit And I think that that's

618
00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:05,880
Speaker 1: just that's the reality of it, and it is really

619
00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:08,520
Speaker 1: one of our vulnerability so you've got two sides of this.

620
00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:13,040
Speaker 1: You have one which is that you know, by and large,

621
00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:15,520
Speaker 1: you know, when when we go overseas, especially if you're

622
00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:19,479
Speaker 1: dealing with special forces, UM, you've got some some guys

623
00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:23,840
Speaker 1: that are really culturally minded and really enjoy being enmeshed

624
00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:27,279
Speaker 1: in those with those people. UM, and so you make

625
00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:31,960
Speaker 1: friendships and things do come out, um, personal things. And so,

626
00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:33,799
Speaker 1: as I shared in the book, you know, these guys

627
00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:36,239
Speaker 1: were sharing videos of their families, showing pictures of their

628
00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:40,319
Speaker 1: family after the war, UM, liking you know, friending them

629
00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:45,520
Speaker 1: on Facebook. Yeah, friends of the Iraqis I trained on Friendbook.

630
00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:49,000
Speaker 1: And and so how many of those terms? How many

631
00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:53,640
Speaker 1: of the mohawks? Um, we're we're told, yeah, we're gonna

632
00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:55,799
Speaker 1: get you guys out of here. You guys have helped us.

633
00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:57,600
Speaker 1: We know that you're in danger. We're gonna get your

634
00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:01,279
Speaker 1: family out. So when and somebody's tour is up and

635
00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:03,799
Speaker 1: they're out of there, somebody else comes in say, hey,

636
00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:06,680
Speaker 1: I was promised. Um, you know where is this that

637
00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:09,200
Speaker 1: is that's something that actually happened. I mean, did they

638
00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:12,080
Speaker 1: lie to these guys? Because you're writing about dudes who

639
00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:13,759
Speaker 1: are down in Baghdad? I was up north, So I

640
00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:16,520
Speaker 1: don't know anything about that. I mean, did we did

641
00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:19,960
Speaker 1: we as a country, either officially or informally, lie to

642
00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:21,719
Speaker 1: these guys and tell them we're going to give them

643
00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:24,799
Speaker 1: visas to come to the States. I don't know that

644
00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:28,440
Speaker 1: that's necessarily policy of what somebody had done, but I

645
00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:31,120
Speaker 1: know that there's a lot of individuals that made promises

646
00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:34,440
Speaker 1: because it's just something that you just, you know, just

647
00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:36,600
Speaker 1: kind of let me see what I can do. Something

648
00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:38,680
Speaker 1: you have to follow through on. Yeah. I mean, here,

649
00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:41,359
Speaker 1: you're trying to get somebody to help you, and so

650
00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:43,520
Speaker 1: you're gonna say, hey, you know, we're you know, I

651
00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:45,360
Speaker 1: need I need you to help us with X, Y

652
00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:47,680
Speaker 1: or Z in your country. And then they're like, hey,

653
00:35:47,719 --> 00:35:49,239
Speaker 1: but by the way, do you think you can get

654
00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:51,920
Speaker 1: my family out to to us? You know we're no,

655
00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:54,160
Speaker 1: but still I want you to do what I'm asking

656
00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:57,480
Speaker 1: you to do. So we tend to say, yeah, I

657
00:35:57,520 --> 00:36:00,160
Speaker 1: think I can make that happen. And and then what

658
00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:01,719
Speaker 1: do they do. They go to somebody from the state

659
00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:03,919
Speaker 1: Department say, hey, how do we how do we help

660
00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:06,760
Speaker 1: these guys out? Well, they'd have to do this paperwork,

661
00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:08,439
Speaker 1: they'd have to do this paperwork, and so I think

662
00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:11,480
Speaker 1: oftentimes we give them that, but to really follow through

663
00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:14,960
Speaker 1: and make it happen. As we know it doesn't often happen,

664
00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:17,560
Speaker 1: and as we know more stories, there are a lot

665
00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:20,640
Speaker 1: of innocent people who were butchered and then those families

666
00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:24,400
Speaker 1: and families because of the retaliation. UM. I mean, I

667
00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:26,680
Speaker 1: just think about what would what would what would you do?

668
00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:29,719
Speaker 1: You know, if that happened, you'd have an ax to

669
00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:32,839
Speaker 1: grind and if somebody gave you that way to get

670
00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:35,360
Speaker 1: back at someone, which you know in this case, the

671
00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:39,120
Speaker 1: I R. G. C. Kut's forces is being that puppet

672
00:36:39,160 --> 00:36:43,160
Speaker 1: master um to get the Mohawks back into the US,

673
00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:46,000
Speaker 1: And that would be my biggest concern, would probably even

674
00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:49,120
Speaker 1: be a bigger state actor than Iran. But let's just say,

675
00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:53,520
Speaker 1: if you're a country, fuck it. Let's just be real.

676
00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:56,080
Speaker 1: If you're a country like China and you're about to

677
00:36:56,080 --> 00:36:59,080
Speaker 1: retake Taiwan, or you're a country like Russia and you're

678
00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:03,680
Speaker 1: about to invade uh Lithuania, Estonia and Latvia, you might

679
00:37:03,760 --> 00:37:06,600
Speaker 1: look for some ways that you can sabotage the American

680
00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:09,360
Speaker 1: response before it ever gets off the ground. And I

681
00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:12,080
Speaker 1: would be concerned with a major state actor like that

682
00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:14,799
Speaker 1: going to some of these neighborhoods and communities like you

683
00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:18,920
Speaker 1: mentioned in Tampa or in North Carolina, where you know,

684
00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:22,560
Speaker 1: just before D day in h hour, maybe you just

685
00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:25,040
Speaker 1: go and take these dudes out so they don't even

686
00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:29,880
Speaker 1: have the opportunity to begin responding. Yeah, UM I would agree,

687
00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:32,560
Speaker 1: And that's it's it's a serious concern. You know you

688
00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:35,719
Speaker 1: mentioned earlier, you know how well does d O D

689
00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:38,760
Speaker 1: or in this case, you know d I A really

690
00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:45,960
Speaker 1: handle UM creating covert identities and things of that nature.

691
00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:50,400
Speaker 1: Will when the UM, the National Clandestine Program was starting

692
00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:52,160
Speaker 1: to be rolled out where they were going to do

693
00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:55,759
Speaker 1: human intelligence, you know that the new process that came

694
00:37:55,760 --> 00:37:57,520
Speaker 1: out from d I A. I don't know, maybe six

695
00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:00,960
Speaker 1: years back. UM I was one of individuals that red

696
00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:04,520
Speaker 1: team that program to show how even though somebody wouldn't

697
00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:06,680
Speaker 1: necessarily have to have the list of all the people

698
00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:10,439
Speaker 1: who were going to be going dark overseas, we could

699
00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:13,840
Speaker 1: show based on the pattern of life and how things work,

700
00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:17,480
Speaker 1: of people moving, putting their houses up for sale, how

701
00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:20,759
Speaker 1: they were transported by the g s A requirements. We

702
00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:24,040
Speaker 1: were able to roll up almost half of that network

703
00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:28,000
Speaker 1: before it even happened by just showing them how China

704
00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:31,520
Speaker 1: or Russia would be able to identify those people that

705
00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:34,239
Speaker 1: were coming in overseas and being able to label them

706
00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:38,360
Speaker 1: right away. So, whether it's from overseas or the US,

707
00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:43,239
Speaker 1: our patterns and our habits are it's it's a it's

708
00:38:43,239 --> 00:38:47,120
Speaker 1: a vulnerability. Plus with everyone carrying smartphones around. I know

709
00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:51,320
Speaker 1: there were special operators who are overseas live streaming uh

710
00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:54,400
Speaker 1: stuff from the stool back to their pals in the

711
00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:58,200
Speaker 1: United States over you know, open nets just on a

712
00:38:58,280 --> 00:39:02,879
Speaker 1: smartphone uh um. And that's what we did that one

713
00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:05,480
Speaker 1: particular bar that you're talking about, you know, when these

714
00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:08,319
Speaker 1: guys came in, So the mohawks understood how to do

715
00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:11,560
Speaker 1: certain you know, signals intelligence based on what they were

716
00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:14,080
Speaker 1: doing in the internet bars. So they're able to pull

717
00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:18,480
Speaker 1: up all of the phone I P addresses, UM, MAC

718
00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:20,960
Speaker 1: I D s and and here, you know, you've got

719
00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:24,040
Speaker 1: these guys who are you know, tier one, but yet

720
00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:27,319
Speaker 1: they're in a local neighborhood bar. They're open to using

721
00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:31,360
Speaker 1: the WiFi. So as soon as something went down, the

722
00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:35,160
Speaker 1: bad guys were able to triangulate, okay where the links

723
00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:38,200
Speaker 1: now to these phone calls coming in or out and

724
00:39:38,239 --> 00:39:41,160
Speaker 1: they recognize that those were going to be um, you know,

725
00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:43,879
Speaker 1: the spouses, and from there they're able to track that

726
00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:47,400
Speaker 1: by just geolocation. So it's you know, we put it

727
00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:49,879
Speaker 1: out there. So I mean, riddle me this. I mean,

728
00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:54,040
Speaker 1: what if you're to take pictures. Um, let's say you're

729
00:39:54,040 --> 00:39:57,560
Speaker 1: to go on David's where the Department of Defense uploads

730
00:39:57,560 --> 00:40:01,520
Speaker 1: all their open source photographs, copyright free photographs. If we're

731
00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:04,200
Speaker 1: to go and look at all the open source Rangers

732
00:40:04,239 --> 00:40:08,120
Speaker 1: school and West Point graduation photos, these institutions that act

733
00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:12,319
Speaker 1: as feeder mechanisms for covert programs, pull the biometrics off,

734
00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:16,760
Speaker 1: run all of that through social media. How many people

735
00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:18,960
Speaker 1: are gonna get popped right off the bat? And has

736
00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:21,560
Speaker 1: D O D even begun to think about this problem yet?

737
00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:24,160
Speaker 1: I don't think. I don't know that they have or

738
00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:26,520
Speaker 1: not to the level that they need to get something done.

739
00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:28,400
Speaker 1: The one thing that always cracks me up, and I

740
00:40:28,440 --> 00:40:31,360
Speaker 1: know sometimes I just make some kind of snide comments

741
00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:35,839
Speaker 1: on Facebook or Twitter, is all the team photos that

742
00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:41,880
Speaker 1: you operators put of, you know, the bandalarros of, you know,

743
00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:44,480
Speaker 1: you got the ammunition, you've got, you know, let me,

744
00:40:44,560 --> 00:40:46,520
Speaker 1: let's all stand out there with a flag and let's

745
00:40:46,560 --> 00:40:48,920
Speaker 1: stand out there with our weapons and maybe we'll you know,

746
00:40:49,160 --> 00:40:51,799
Speaker 1: black eye some people and black face this guy and

747
00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:56,880
Speaker 1: put a bar over here over there. Yeah, you guys

748
00:40:57,000 --> 00:40:59,760
Speaker 1: take a lot of damn pictures. And I've always wonder,

749
00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:03,520
Speaker 1: you know, is it you know you're going out and say, hey,

750
00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:06,359
Speaker 1: wait a second, guys, let's you know, team photo here.

751
00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:09,360
Speaker 1: And I think that so much of that that's posted

752
00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:13,000
Speaker 1: out there of you know, here's the team. Um, it's

753
00:41:13,040 --> 00:41:16,160
Speaker 1: pretty easy, especially with facial recognition and being able to

754
00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:19,799
Speaker 1: put those links together, that you could put together a

755
00:41:19,840 --> 00:41:24,160
Speaker 1: squad very very easily. UM. I mean we do it

756
00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:27,480
Speaker 1: against our foreign adversaries. It's it's really simple to do. Yeah,

757
00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:30,239
Speaker 1: I mean put out there. I've done it as a journalist.

758
00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:31,960
Speaker 1: I mean when you're working on a story and you

759
00:41:31,960 --> 00:41:34,239
Speaker 1: have to figure out who's who and you know, who

760
00:41:34,280 --> 00:41:37,200
Speaker 1: should I go talk to next? Um, all of those

761
00:41:37,239 --> 00:41:39,800
Speaker 1: become like little data points. There are little puzzle pieces

762
00:41:39,800 --> 00:41:45,440
Speaker 1: that you put together. UM. And Instagram especially is heinous.

763
00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:48,120
Speaker 1: I'm like, some of this stuff on there is shocking

764
00:41:48,160 --> 00:41:51,200
Speaker 1: that ends up getting posted. I was having a beer

765
00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:54,839
Speaker 1: once with a retired Delta Force sergeant major and he

766
00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:57,879
Speaker 1: was like, there are these like Delta fanboys on there

767
00:41:57,960 --> 00:42:01,239
Speaker 1: on Instagram, and just from looking at photos that have

768
00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:06,040
Speaker 1: been posted on on social media, they've basically cracked the UH,

769
00:42:06,560 --> 00:42:10,480
Speaker 1: the the call sign patches that they all wear and

770
00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:13,880
Speaker 1: and understand the organizational structure of the unit. These are

771
00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:16,200
Speaker 1: like fourteen year old kids to code and call sign

772
00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:19,319
Speaker 1: patches are finding on open source photographs. So, I mean

773
00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:23,960
Speaker 1: when you have a major UH intelligence organization like the

774
00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:26,600
Speaker 1: m s S or the FSB or the I r

775
00:42:26,680 --> 00:42:29,440
Speaker 1: G C, Cuts Force, whatever the cases, and you can

776
00:42:29,440 --> 00:42:33,080
Speaker 1: only imagine what the hell they've done. Yeah, And you know,

777
00:42:33,160 --> 00:42:34,560
Speaker 1: I think a lot of the reasons that we do

778
00:42:34,680 --> 00:42:36,960
Speaker 1: post those for a lot of guys, you know from

779
00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:40,040
Speaker 1: the military side, do is look, they've they've been through

780
00:42:40,040 --> 00:42:44,040
Speaker 1: a lot, they're highly trained, they're usually armed to the teeth,

781
00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:47,720
Speaker 1: and I know that usually that bravado is yeah, come ahead,

782
00:42:47,760 --> 00:42:50,520
Speaker 1: come get me. Well, I got news for you. If

783
00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:52,759
Speaker 1: I'm looking to target somebody, I'm not going for you.

784
00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:54,480
Speaker 1: I'm not going for the arm ground, looking for the

785
00:42:54,480 --> 00:42:57,520
Speaker 1: easy fight, and I'm looking for the family. And that's

786
00:42:57,680 --> 00:43:00,799
Speaker 1: that's where I think it's missed, is if somebody was

787
00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:03,839
Speaker 1: really that devious, really wanted to do it. They're not

788
00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:06,520
Speaker 1: going for the for the hard target, They're going for

789
00:43:06,560 --> 00:43:09,120
Speaker 1: the soft target. And that's what I try to at

790
00:43:09,160 --> 00:43:11,680
Speaker 1: least put out there in the book, is you know,

791
00:43:12,040 --> 00:43:15,680
Speaker 1: mind or ps and qs folks, because this is this

792
00:43:15,760 --> 00:43:18,160
Speaker 1: is a weakness and these things aren't happening in a

793
00:43:18,320 --> 00:43:22,399
Speaker 1: vacuum either. It's not just social media photographs. Our adversaries

794
00:43:22,440 --> 00:43:25,040
Speaker 1: now have all the op M data that they can

795
00:43:25,080 --> 00:43:28,560
Speaker 1: cross reference that with, and uh, you know how many

796
00:43:28,560 --> 00:43:31,200
Speaker 1: other hacks and weeks and everything else that has happened

797
00:43:31,239 --> 00:43:34,200
Speaker 1: over the years is just putting our adversaries into a

798
00:43:34,239 --> 00:43:38,440
Speaker 1: totally different stratosphere. Yeah, and that's again goes back to

799
00:43:38,480 --> 00:43:40,880
Speaker 1: Buried in Black where it started with. You know, some

800
00:43:40,960 --> 00:43:43,760
Speaker 1: of these guys going through the op um um leaked

801
00:43:43,800 --> 00:43:45,959
Speaker 1: information that was on the dark web. They were able

802
00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:48,280
Speaker 1: to take that and then just put these pieces together.

803
00:43:48,880 --> 00:43:51,840
Speaker 1: So I'm not looking to give anybody a playbook of

804
00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:53,520
Speaker 1: how to do it. And so there's a lot of

805
00:43:53,960 --> 00:43:56,960
Speaker 1: you know, segments that are left out, but it's it's

806
00:43:57,000 --> 00:43:59,360
Speaker 1: easy to do, and it's just you know, hoping to

807
00:43:59,440 --> 00:44:01,400
Speaker 1: just create a little bit of an awareness, you know,

808
00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:03,879
Speaker 1: part of part of my background comes on the red

809
00:44:03,920 --> 00:44:06,759
Speaker 1: teeming side and uh and in a lot of these

810
00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:09,239
Speaker 1: programs are hardening these programs. So what I'd like to

811
00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:12,200
Speaker 1: do now that I'm that I'm out is create some

812
00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:14,520
Speaker 1: of this awareness in these books, not just so much.

813
00:44:14,640 --> 00:44:17,120
Speaker 1: You know, some people say, well, are you giving away tradecraft? Like, no,

814
00:44:17,320 --> 00:44:20,840
Speaker 1: I'm trying to tell you from an infrastructure devents infrastructure standpoint,

815
00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:23,080
Speaker 1: this is broken and you guys need to fix it.

816
00:44:23,239 --> 00:44:25,360
Speaker 1: But you know, how do I get it out? Yeah? No,

817
00:44:25,520 --> 00:44:30,200
Speaker 1: that's it's frustrating. Um. I've definitely had people, uh, pretty

818
00:44:30,239 --> 00:44:33,319
Speaker 1: angry with me saying I'm violating OPS sack and I'm

819
00:44:33,360 --> 00:44:35,520
Speaker 1: giving away OPS sack And it's like, wait a second,

820
00:44:35,960 --> 00:44:38,120
Speaker 1: who am I giving away opseck to This is like

821
00:44:38,200 --> 00:44:41,120
Speaker 1: open source stuff that's out there, like the enemy knows,

822
00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:43,680
Speaker 1: So like who is this information secret from? Is it

823
00:44:43,880 --> 00:44:45,960
Speaker 1: secret from the bad guys? Or is it secret from

824
00:44:45,960 --> 00:44:48,400
Speaker 1: the American public? Like who are we trying to keep

825
00:44:48,440 --> 00:44:51,919
Speaker 1: this information from it? Then at this point, yeah, and

826
00:44:52,040 --> 00:44:53,960
Speaker 1: you know, that was actually a good experience that I

827
00:44:53,960 --> 00:44:56,920
Speaker 1: did have so my books, in this one in particular,

828
00:44:56,920 --> 00:44:58,759
Speaker 1: I had to run it through D O D. I

829
00:44:58,800 --> 00:45:00,440
Speaker 1: had to run it through N s A and I

830
00:45:00,520 --> 00:45:03,040
Speaker 1: had to run into the CIA, okay, through all the

831
00:45:03,080 --> 00:45:05,839
Speaker 1: publication reviews, so everybody got their chop at it, and

832
00:45:06,280 --> 00:45:09,200
Speaker 1: you know, tell me what they suggested redacting or something

833
00:45:09,239 --> 00:45:12,200
Speaker 1: that just needed to be taken out. There's only one

834
00:45:12,320 --> 00:45:15,960
Speaker 1: time that somebody actually reached back out to me and said,

835
00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:19,560
Speaker 1: we'd actually like to have a discussion about this because

836
00:45:19,760 --> 00:45:23,160
Speaker 1: we would like to know how to fix this. So

837
00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:26,960
Speaker 1: at least they were open to the to fixing things. Well,

838
00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:29,680
Speaker 1: that's it. And so so what it was is, you know,

839
00:45:30,080 --> 00:45:32,239
Speaker 1: it was nice to know because usually you figure, okay,

840
00:45:32,280 --> 00:45:35,000
Speaker 1: it's somebody that you couldn't get promoted or something. Maybe

841
00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:37,840
Speaker 1: that's sitting in some of these roles. Um, they're not

842
00:45:37,960 --> 00:45:39,719
Speaker 1: the sexiest roles. I have to read a bunch of

843
00:45:39,760 --> 00:45:42,600
Speaker 1: novels and go through and redact them because in many

844
00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:46,000
Speaker 1: cases they're not it's not automated. Um, they're having to

845
00:45:46,320 --> 00:45:48,920
Speaker 1: pick things out. But it was nice to know that

846
00:45:48,960 --> 00:45:51,759
Speaker 1: somebody saw something and said I need to pass this

847
00:45:51,840 --> 00:45:54,239
Speaker 1: over to somebody else. And then that person passed it

848
00:45:54,239 --> 00:45:56,759
Speaker 1: to somebody else and checked it out, and that person said,

849
00:45:57,200 --> 00:45:59,640
Speaker 1: let's let's have a little bit of a chat um.

850
00:45:59,800 --> 00:46:03,879
Speaker 1: And so I'm happy to advise them on on how

851
00:46:03,920 --> 00:46:06,239
Speaker 1: to you know, take care of this situation that that

852
00:46:06,320 --> 00:46:09,880
Speaker 1: in particular I had addressed. But again, anything that they said,

853
00:46:10,080 --> 00:46:12,800
Speaker 1: you know, they were a little bit squeamish about, I

854
00:46:12,840 --> 00:46:15,640
Speaker 1: have no problem taking it out. Um. You know, anything

855
00:46:15,680 --> 00:46:17,680
Speaker 1: that I put out there, it's usually you know, when

856
00:46:17,680 --> 00:46:20,880
Speaker 1: I look at it in isolation, it's you know, is

857
00:46:20,920 --> 00:46:24,440
Speaker 1: this classified? Can these any equities that are exposed? No,

858
00:46:25,360 --> 00:46:27,960
Speaker 1: But you know, when you seem those two together and

859
00:46:28,000 --> 00:46:32,040
Speaker 1: you can make analytical inferences, that's usually where somebody might say, hey,

860
00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:34,000
Speaker 1: you know, I have a little bit of heartburn with it.

861
00:46:34,040 --> 00:46:35,600
Speaker 1: And that's great because that's part of the process that

862
00:46:35,640 --> 00:46:38,120
Speaker 1: I'm hoping is going to happen, so that those things

863
00:46:38,120 --> 00:46:41,480
Speaker 1: are grabbed and uh and and nothing is disclosed in appropriately.

864
00:46:41,560 --> 00:46:43,239
Speaker 1: So there may be something close like a lot of

865
00:46:43,239 --> 00:46:47,719
Speaker 1: the keywords um on on some of the systems or

866
00:46:47,760 --> 00:46:49,640
Speaker 1: something like that, especially the N S A ones. You

867
00:46:49,640 --> 00:46:52,600
Speaker 1: know they're out there, but I'll just change them up

868
00:46:52,600 --> 00:46:59,080
Speaker 1: a little bit just so that it's not um. I

869
00:46:59,120 --> 00:47:00,840
Speaker 1: think the other thing I'm want to ask you was

870
00:47:01,000 --> 00:47:05,040
Speaker 1: the characters in your and your in all of your books,

871
00:47:05,040 --> 00:47:09,319
Speaker 1: but this one included They're definitely different than like what

872
00:47:09,360 --> 00:47:10,920
Speaker 1: you would find in some of those other books in

873
00:47:10,920 --> 00:47:13,520
Speaker 1: this genre. You know, like you said there's there's not

874
00:47:13,760 --> 00:47:16,319
Speaker 1: or I said there's not so much flag waving. These

875
00:47:16,320 --> 00:47:23,160
Speaker 1: are sort of cynical, uh, pragmatic, self interested actors working

876
00:47:23,160 --> 00:47:26,560
Speaker 1: within a bureaucracy, and it almost feels like they've kind

877
00:47:26,560 --> 00:47:30,200
Speaker 1: of lost touch of what it was they got into

878
00:47:30,239 --> 00:47:32,720
Speaker 1: the game to begin with, or whatever they were fighting

879
00:47:32,719 --> 00:47:35,200
Speaker 1: for at one point, like like there's just they've lost

880
00:47:35,239 --> 00:47:40,160
Speaker 1: track of morality at some point along this journey. Um. Yeah,

881
00:47:40,320 --> 00:47:42,920
Speaker 1: I just want to see if you can elaborate on

882
00:47:42,920 --> 00:47:46,440
Speaker 1: on how you develop these characters and what this mentality is,

883
00:47:46,480 --> 00:47:52,000
Speaker 1: where they come from, you know, part of part of again,

884
00:47:52,040 --> 00:47:54,560
Speaker 1: I think a lot of this is the reality, especially

885
00:47:54,600 --> 00:47:56,479
Speaker 1: with most of the characters that are in the book

886
00:47:56,520 --> 00:48:00,319
Speaker 1: that are really seasoned and they've spent a lot of

887
00:48:00,360 --> 00:48:03,279
Speaker 1: tours on They deal with the bureaucracy, they deal with

888
00:48:03,320 --> 00:48:06,440
Speaker 1: the frustration, and sometimes it's the is it worth it?

889
00:48:07,000 --> 00:48:09,240
Speaker 1: Um or if they know what has to be done

890
00:48:09,840 --> 00:48:11,960
Speaker 1: to target a certain individual but they can't get the

891
00:48:12,000 --> 00:48:16,239
Speaker 1: opportunity to do it. Um Again, You're waiting to cut

892
00:48:16,280 --> 00:48:19,200
Speaker 1: through a lot of that red tape. Most of the

893
00:48:19,280 --> 00:48:22,320
Speaker 1: guys that I know, especially a lot of the eighteen

894
00:48:22,480 --> 00:48:25,400
Speaker 1: X rays that and I try. I addressed this a

895
00:48:25,400 --> 00:48:30,600
Speaker 1: little bit in Prime Charge. Most of the soldiers that

896
00:48:30,719 --> 00:48:35,960
Speaker 1: I know did not join the military because of a

897
00:48:36,000 --> 00:48:41,640
Speaker 1: sense of duty, a sense of patriotism. Yeah, they did

898
00:48:41,640 --> 00:48:44,640
Speaker 1: it because they thought it was cool. They thought it'd

899
00:48:44,640 --> 00:48:47,560
Speaker 1: be fun. Um, it was something that was very much

900
00:48:47,600 --> 00:48:51,839
Speaker 1: of interesting. A lot of the guys I know outdoorsman hunters, um,

901
00:48:51,880 --> 00:48:54,000
Speaker 1: you know, they like that sense of adventure, they like

902
00:48:54,080 --> 00:48:56,799
Speaker 1: that physicality. They can't see themselves in an office. This

903
00:48:56,840 --> 00:48:59,840
Speaker 1: seems like a good alternative or a good opportunity. And

904
00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:02,000
Speaker 1: don't like there's anything wrong with that. It's it's it's

905
00:49:02,040 --> 00:49:03,759
Speaker 1: kind of weird how that everybody has to be put

906
00:49:03,760 --> 00:49:06,840
Speaker 1: in this bucket of like, you know, my country called

907
00:49:06,840 --> 00:49:09,000
Speaker 1: and I served, Like I think everybody who does do

908
00:49:09,080 --> 00:49:11,960
Speaker 1: it is heroic. But it doesn't matter, Um, you know

909
00:49:12,040 --> 00:49:15,040
Speaker 1: the reasoning behind it. If if you serve, you serve.

910
00:49:15,160 --> 00:49:17,560
Speaker 1: And you you've spoken about that before. I remember you

911
00:49:17,640 --> 00:49:21,120
Speaker 1: jokingly saying like I don't really care if civilians thank

912
00:49:21,200 --> 00:49:22,799
Speaker 1: me for my service, Like I went from my own

913
00:49:22,800 --> 00:49:25,200
Speaker 1: self reasons. It's true. I mean, I did it because

914
00:49:25,239 --> 00:49:28,120
Speaker 1: I wanted to do it because it was important to me. Yeah,

915
00:49:28,160 --> 00:49:30,120
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, somebody, but there's there's a lot

916
00:49:30,160 --> 00:49:31,759
Speaker 1: of guys when you know somebody say hey, thank you

917
00:49:31,800 --> 00:49:34,960
Speaker 1: for your service, and they're like, you know, I didn't

918
00:49:35,000 --> 00:49:37,560
Speaker 1: do it to serve you. You know, I've got one

919
00:49:37,560 --> 00:49:41,000
Speaker 1: buddy who just just loves it, absolutely loves it. So

920
00:49:41,320 --> 00:49:44,279
Speaker 1: in these cases, I think that you've got well in

921
00:49:44,640 --> 00:49:48,120
Speaker 1: Drake Wolf in particular. You know, here's a guy who

922
00:49:47,840 --> 00:49:51,279
Speaker 1: was young, impressionable, His dad was in the c I A.

923
00:49:51,680 --> 00:49:56,080
Speaker 1: Something happens to the family. Where does he go? Um,

924
00:49:56,160 --> 00:49:59,600
Speaker 1: he's going under kind of a hard charging um former

925
00:49:59,640 --> 00:50:04,919
Speaker 1: opera raider, uh, was in the Phoenix program. Um ends

926
00:50:04,960 --> 00:50:08,160
Speaker 1: up being Jaysack J two. You know. So here you've

927
00:50:08,200 --> 00:50:11,839
Speaker 1: got this guy who's who's really um, you know, very

928
00:50:11,920 --> 00:50:15,080
Speaker 1: much mission focus and he's going to get this guy.

929
00:50:15,160 --> 00:50:17,560
Speaker 1: He's you know, trying to shape and mold uh, this

930
00:50:17,680 --> 00:50:21,279
Speaker 1: young kid into what he wants. Now, Drake's also got

931
00:50:21,360 --> 00:50:25,440
Speaker 1: some some some mental issues and uh, but because of

932
00:50:25,840 --> 00:50:28,000
Speaker 1: that and because of the secrets that he's holding, you know,

933
00:50:28,120 --> 00:50:30,400
Speaker 1: he's not in a position where he can kind of

934
00:50:30,440 --> 00:50:32,920
Speaker 1: hold back. And so what if you had somebody that

935
00:50:32,960 --> 00:50:35,560
Speaker 1: really wanted to exploit that and just keeps pushing this

936
00:50:35,680 --> 00:50:39,279
Speaker 1: kid and keeps pushing him. That's right. And because of

937
00:50:39,280 --> 00:50:41,640
Speaker 1: the cloud that he had, he can get him into

938
00:50:41,760 --> 00:50:43,520
Speaker 1: all of the programs, he can get him into all

939
00:50:43,520 --> 00:50:46,279
Speaker 1: the qualification things. So he's getting the T shirts all

940
00:50:46,320 --> 00:50:49,239
Speaker 1: along the way, and here he's sitting back. I don't

941
00:50:49,239 --> 00:50:51,600
Speaker 1: really even want to be here, but this is all

942
00:50:51,640 --> 00:50:55,000
Speaker 1: I know. This is what I do, and and that's

943
00:50:55,040 --> 00:50:57,120
Speaker 1: I think. And then he's got that war, that war

944
00:50:57,200 --> 00:51:00,520
Speaker 1: weariness where you know, he doesn't want to quit because

945
00:51:00,520 --> 00:51:03,279
Speaker 1: it's not part of him. But yet it's just he's

946
00:51:03,320 --> 00:51:07,520
Speaker 1: just dragging and dragging. And yet he doesn't really he

947
00:51:07,560 --> 00:51:09,840
Speaker 1: doesn't want to kill himself for the sense of he

948
00:51:09,960 --> 00:51:12,279
Speaker 1: just doesn't want to be there. He just doesn't want

949
00:51:12,280 --> 00:51:14,799
Speaker 1: to be in the situation that he's in. And I

950
00:51:14,840 --> 00:51:17,440
Speaker 1: think that's also something that speaks true to a lot

951
00:51:17,520 --> 00:51:20,839
Speaker 1: of guys that have that have come back after a

952
00:51:20,880 --> 00:51:24,560
Speaker 1: lot of um a lot of tours were that that

953
00:51:24,680 --> 00:51:29,080
Speaker 1: have thought about killing themselves. Um it's not so much

954
00:51:29,120 --> 00:51:32,520
Speaker 1: that they didn't want to to live, it's just that

955
00:51:32,560 --> 00:51:34,680
Speaker 1: they don't want to be in that state of mind,

956
00:51:34,760 --> 00:51:37,520
Speaker 1: in that state of physicality that they're that surrounds them

957
00:51:37,719 --> 00:51:39,680
Speaker 1: and they want that change but don't know how to

958
00:51:39,719 --> 00:51:42,040
Speaker 1: get it. And that's what I also try to weave

959
00:51:42,120 --> 00:51:44,640
Speaker 1: in there. I think what came out in the book

960
00:51:44,640 --> 00:51:48,480
Speaker 1: are One of the things I noticed was that the

961
00:51:48,480 --> 00:51:53,360
Speaker 1: the UM intelligence professionals, if you will, in the book,

962
00:51:53,640 --> 00:51:56,920
Speaker 1: they treat their subordinates, their fellow Americans. There are special

963
00:51:56,920 --> 00:52:00,040
Speaker 1: operators almost like you know, you would expect to c

964
00:52:00,160 --> 00:52:03,960
Speaker 1: I a case officer to treat a Somalian asset they've

965
00:52:04,000 --> 00:52:06,239
Speaker 1: recruited that It's just like, like I said, use an

966
00:52:06,239 --> 00:52:08,640
Speaker 1: abuse them, get rid of them, you know, like you're

967
00:52:08,680 --> 00:52:10,560
Speaker 1: just here to help me get up a few rungs

968
00:52:10,600 --> 00:52:13,560
Speaker 1: up the ladder or whatever it is, and then you know,

969
00:52:13,880 --> 00:52:18,920
Speaker 1: move on. UM. It's a pretty cynical way to treat

970
00:52:18,960 --> 00:52:21,239
Speaker 1: our our soldiers. And and also what comes out in

971
00:52:21,320 --> 00:52:23,719
Speaker 1: it is you know, praying on the on the soldier's

972
00:52:23,719 --> 00:52:27,319
Speaker 1: sense of patriotism. Yeah, you know, there's a there's a

973
00:52:27,320 --> 00:52:29,960
Speaker 1: lot of problems I think with some of those hierarchies

974
00:52:30,080 --> 00:52:33,480
Speaker 1: and even some of the inner agency UM involvements on

975
00:52:33,560 --> 00:52:38,000
Speaker 1: some of these activities. UM. I put out a post

976
00:52:38,000 --> 00:52:41,760
Speaker 1: the other day UM Jack Carr had had written something

977
00:52:42,080 --> 00:52:44,040
Speaker 1: and and I was talking about, Oh, I was talking

978
00:52:44,080 --> 00:52:46,799
Speaker 1: about being in DC. These guys are writing about you know,

979
00:52:46,840 --> 00:52:48,759
Speaker 1: their their camp stoves and that, And I said, you know,

980
00:52:48,760 --> 00:52:50,560
Speaker 1: I never had that problem. Some of the times of

981
00:52:50,600 --> 00:52:54,240
Speaker 1: the Ritz Carlton over in the Beltway or over McClean

982
00:52:54,680 --> 00:52:56,640
Speaker 1: and I must have been harsh. And I was thinking,

983
00:52:56,680 --> 00:52:59,000
Speaker 1: you know, actually some of it was harsh from the

984
00:52:59,040 --> 00:53:02,560
Speaker 1: emotional stay point of dealing with these policy makers who

985
00:53:02,600 --> 00:53:06,680
Speaker 1: are thinking of sending somebody down range or certain taskings

986
00:53:06,680 --> 00:53:09,120
Speaker 1: for missions. Um that you know, we're going to trickle

987
00:53:09,160 --> 00:53:12,080
Speaker 1: down and you've got somebody that's got you know, the

988
00:53:12,160 --> 00:53:14,919
Speaker 1: velcrow patch in the room, or you've got somebody that's

989
00:53:14,960 --> 00:53:18,160
Speaker 1: got the embroidered monograms on the sleeve. And who do

990
00:53:18,200 --> 00:53:20,960
Speaker 1: you think they listened to? You know, it's the it's

991
00:53:20,960 --> 00:53:23,480
Speaker 1: the guy who doesn't have any of the experience. But

992
00:53:24,320 --> 00:53:27,239
Speaker 1: that's uh that that's somebody that they relate to, or

993
00:53:27,239 --> 00:53:30,040
Speaker 1: that they hold in a different regard to than than

994
00:53:30,160 --> 00:53:35,160
Speaker 1: cannon fodder in many cases. Um So I think, you know,

995
00:53:35,320 --> 00:53:37,880
Speaker 1: we try to work that also in and just really

996
00:53:37,920 --> 00:53:41,239
Speaker 1: from what I've seen on both sides of working in

997
00:53:41,280 --> 00:53:44,360
Speaker 1: the intelligence community, working with some of the policy makers

998
00:53:44,600 --> 00:53:48,839
Speaker 1: how they view the soldiers, and then also being within

999
00:53:48,880 --> 00:53:51,920
Speaker 1: the soldier mindset doing mission support, thinking back up to

1000
00:53:52,680 --> 00:53:56,600
Speaker 1: the Ivory tower of who's tasking them? And um, you know,

1001
00:53:57,239 --> 00:54:03,000
Speaker 1: are they really thinking about what's going on? And sadly, Um,

1002
00:54:03,080 --> 00:54:06,560
Speaker 1: in many cases, no, they don't. They don't care. It's

1003
00:54:06,719 --> 00:54:09,040
Speaker 1: you just do it because that's your job. And I

1004
00:54:09,040 --> 00:54:11,480
Speaker 1: mean they're also just so far removed from it. I mean,

1005
00:54:11,520 --> 00:54:13,799
Speaker 1: even a colonel. I mean it just seems like they

1006
00:54:14,040 --> 00:54:16,600
Speaker 1: hardly ever know what's actually going on. They talk a

1007
00:54:16,600 --> 00:54:18,759
Speaker 1: good talk about ground truth, but how many of them

1008
00:54:18,760 --> 00:54:21,879
Speaker 1: actually know it? Um. And it's not necessarily because they're

1009
00:54:21,920 --> 00:54:26,319
Speaker 1: bad officers. It's also just they're physically geographically removed from

1010
00:54:26,320 --> 00:54:29,399
Speaker 1: the situation that these guys are in. Yeah, there's there's

1011
00:54:29,440 --> 00:54:31,279
Speaker 1: a great movie. Um. I think it was called The

1012
00:54:31,320 --> 00:54:36,719
Speaker 1: Trader and it had done Cheetle Chidley. But he was

1013
00:54:36,760 --> 00:54:42,080
Speaker 1: like yeah, and so, um was it Jeff Bridges was

1014
00:54:42,120 --> 00:54:46,600
Speaker 1: he like the handler? So you've got you've got his handler,

1015
00:54:46,880 --> 00:54:50,279
Speaker 1: this guy's handler. So you've got the DC handler and

1016
00:54:50,360 --> 00:54:54,120
Speaker 1: he's like getting groceries out of this car and you know,

1017
00:54:54,120 --> 00:54:56,359
Speaker 1: he's getting a phone called the Kids are calling him,

1018
00:54:56,600 --> 00:54:59,640
Speaker 1: and then you've got the the operator, you know, the

1019
00:54:59,719 --> 00:55:02,640
Speaker 1: asked a who's in Africa or the Middle East whatever,

1020
00:55:02,920 --> 00:55:05,520
Speaker 1: and he's like looking for some type of a backup

1021
00:55:05,560 --> 00:55:08,040
Speaker 1: and help, and you know he's he's in a life

1022
00:55:08,080 --> 00:55:10,400
Speaker 1: and death situation. This is those guys like, you know,

1023
00:55:10,520 --> 00:55:12,959
Speaker 1: I really can't do what I can't talk right now,

1024
00:55:13,680 --> 00:55:15,880
Speaker 1: and it's just such a disparity. I found myself in

1025
00:55:15,920 --> 00:55:18,520
Speaker 1: a similar situation years back, where this girl was going

1026
00:55:18,560 --> 00:55:22,120
Speaker 1: into Lebanon to actually sit with his blah. And I

1027
00:55:22,160 --> 00:55:24,200
Speaker 1: remember I'm sitting in an office and I'm thinking, I'm

1028
00:55:24,239 --> 00:55:26,160
Speaker 1: looking at my watch and I'm like, am I gonna

1029
00:55:26,200 --> 00:55:28,440
Speaker 1: catch my plane back to Chicago or not? You know?

1030
00:55:28,600 --> 00:55:30,080
Speaker 1: And I'm like, I gotta get out of there, but

1031
00:55:30,120 --> 00:55:31,880
Speaker 1: I gotta help her, And you know, am I gonna

1032
00:55:31,880 --> 00:55:36,080
Speaker 1: catch hell if I'm not back? Um, It's it's two

1033
00:55:36,080 --> 00:55:39,200
Speaker 1: different worlds, you know, and uh, and you know, you

1034
00:55:39,280 --> 00:55:40,840
Speaker 1: just have to do the right thing and trust that

1035
00:55:40,920 --> 00:55:45,879
Speaker 1: somebody else's That's gotta be a weird feeling in a sense.

1036
00:55:45,920 --> 00:55:48,399
Speaker 1: It's like I was thinking about this the other day

1037
00:55:48,800 --> 00:55:52,239
Speaker 1: in regards to another situation, like, well, what's the end

1038
00:55:52,320 --> 00:55:55,920
Speaker 1: state for people in this kind of business. Like we

1039
00:55:55,960 --> 00:55:58,319
Speaker 1: all are very familiar I think at this point with

1040
00:55:58,360 --> 00:56:02,640
Speaker 1: like you know, special operations soldiers getting deployed over and

1041
00:56:02,680 --> 00:56:04,279
Speaker 1: over again and they come back and they have all

1042
00:56:04,280 --> 00:56:07,080
Speaker 1: these issues with PTSD. I mean, what's it like for

1043
00:56:07,120 --> 00:56:11,000
Speaker 1: a dude who's running intelligence support and you know you're

1044
00:56:11,000 --> 00:56:15,239
Speaker 1: in these stressful situations, there's lives on the line. I mean,

1045
00:56:15,280 --> 00:56:18,120
Speaker 1: do you end up developing PTSD or some other like

1046
00:56:18,239 --> 00:56:22,360
Speaker 1: psychological trauma from just living that lifestyle for a prolonged

1047
00:56:22,400 --> 00:56:25,120
Speaker 1: period of time. I don't know that that I always

1048
00:56:25,120 --> 00:56:27,360
Speaker 1: ever in as much of that as many others you

1049
00:56:27,400 --> 00:56:30,359
Speaker 1: know that probably have you know, more intense experiences from

1050
00:56:30,360 --> 00:56:34,319
Speaker 1: that standpoint, But I will say there's a certain disappointment. Um,

1051
00:56:34,520 --> 00:56:39,239
Speaker 1: when I stopped doing the mission support work and work

1052
00:56:39,320 --> 00:56:42,560
Speaker 1: for the intelligence community, it wasn't up to me. Um,

1053
00:56:42,600 --> 00:56:45,640
Speaker 1: it was during a time of sequestration. Uh, there's a

1054
00:56:45,640 --> 00:56:48,120
Speaker 1: lot of cutbacks. I wasn't living in d C. So

1055
00:56:48,200 --> 00:56:50,440
Speaker 1: people weren't going to be flying me out back and

1056
00:56:50,520 --> 00:56:53,359
Speaker 1: forth from Chicago, and I wasn't gonna going to move.

1057
00:56:53,640 --> 00:56:57,360
Speaker 1: I wasn't able to move. Um, So what type of

1058
00:56:57,480 --> 00:57:00,160
Speaker 1: jobs are there for for a guy like me? And

1059
00:57:00,520 --> 00:57:02,800
Speaker 1: I thought that I would be able to walk into

1060
00:57:03,120 --> 00:57:05,719
Speaker 1: consultancy or a bank and be able to say, I

1061
00:57:05,840 --> 00:57:09,239
Speaker 1: know exactly where the dirt is. You know where the

1062
00:57:09,320 --> 00:57:12,920
Speaker 1: where the bones are buried, because we've tracked the money,

1063
00:57:12,960 --> 00:57:16,160
Speaker 1: we know the players. I will help you route this out.

1064
00:57:16,720 --> 00:57:19,600
Speaker 1: And they said, no, hey, you want to you want

1065
00:57:19,600 --> 00:57:21,560
Speaker 1: to contract in Yemen. I might be able to hook

1066
00:57:21,560 --> 00:57:25,720
Speaker 1: that up for you. But but but the banks didn't

1067
00:57:25,760 --> 00:57:29,400
Speaker 1: want They didn't want anything discovered because then it would

1068
00:57:29,440 --> 00:57:33,040
Speaker 1: go into a compliant situation. They could find um. There's

1069
00:57:33,080 --> 00:57:36,240
Speaker 1: a number of times where I was on projects and

1070
00:57:36,280 --> 00:57:38,680
Speaker 1: I was told to you know, these guys are spending

1071
00:57:38,680 --> 00:57:43,120
Speaker 1: millions of dollars looking for um some illicit activity. And

1072
00:57:43,160 --> 00:57:45,919
Speaker 1: I was able to just go back through the court

1073
00:57:46,000 --> 00:57:49,840
Speaker 1: cases and see who some of the um uh the

1074
00:57:49,880 --> 00:57:52,000
Speaker 1: inquiries are about some of the allegations were. I was

1075
00:57:52,040 --> 00:57:54,760
Speaker 1: able to map the whole network and I said, look,

1076
00:57:54,800 --> 00:57:56,720
Speaker 1: we've got it. I can we can do a search

1077
00:57:56,800 --> 00:57:59,040
Speaker 1: right through here. You guys can put together a database.

1078
00:57:59,360 --> 00:58:02,760
Speaker 1: We can find doubt this whole network. And they said, yeah,

1079
00:58:02,800 --> 00:58:04,640
Speaker 1: but if we did that and we didn't do this

1080
00:58:04,720 --> 00:58:08,000
Speaker 1: data input for the next year. Uh, that's a difference

1081
00:58:08,040 --> 00:58:10,440
Speaker 1: between a two hundred thousand dollar project and a two

1082
00:58:10,440 --> 00:58:15,600
Speaker 1: million dollar project cutting down the billable hours. So you know,

1083
00:58:16,160 --> 00:58:20,360
Speaker 1: that's that's where the frustration UM really comes. And and

1084
00:58:20,400 --> 00:58:22,960
Speaker 1: that's where you do, you know, you want to be

1085
00:58:23,000 --> 00:58:27,000
Speaker 1: part of the mission UM, but but necessarily can't UM.

1086
00:58:27,240 --> 00:58:30,560
Speaker 1: And that I think that's that was harder for me. UM.

1087
00:58:30,600 --> 00:58:33,320
Speaker 1: It's one of the reasons that I kept writing UM.

1088
00:58:33,360 --> 00:58:35,760
Speaker 1: It's why I started doing some some contracts with some

1089
00:58:35,880 --> 00:58:39,800
Speaker 1: you know, service disabled veteran owned companies and working with

1090
00:58:39,880 --> 00:58:42,600
Speaker 1: them because there's a certain connectiveness. And I think that

1091
00:58:42,640 --> 00:58:45,520
Speaker 1: there's also something in the corporate world where you know,

1092
00:58:45,560 --> 00:58:49,680
Speaker 1: there is no loyalty UM, there is no bond, there's

1093
00:58:49,680 --> 00:58:51,960
Speaker 1: a lot of the backstabbing. You just don't have that

1094
00:58:52,120 --> 00:58:56,680
Speaker 1: same that mission mindset. UM. So in my you know,

1095
00:58:56,760 --> 00:58:58,560
Speaker 1: day to day life, I do a lot of work

1096
00:58:58,600 --> 00:59:01,320
Speaker 1: with UM with this group called Infraguard, which is an

1097
00:59:01,320 --> 00:59:05,760
Speaker 1: infrastructure protection between the commercial world and the FBI. And

1098
00:59:05,800 --> 00:59:07,640
Speaker 1: I'm able to act as kind of a segue because

1099
00:59:07,680 --> 00:59:09,440
Speaker 1: I can talk to the Intel analysts, but I can

1100
00:59:09,480 --> 00:59:12,560
Speaker 1: also talk to the commercial people. UM. You know, I

1101
00:59:12,600 --> 00:59:15,120
Speaker 1: get a lot out of that. And so that's that's

1102
00:59:15,240 --> 00:59:18,400
Speaker 1: that's kind of a good, good balance. Well, what's next

1103
00:59:18,520 --> 00:59:21,360
Speaker 1: for I mean, I know it's a little early since

1104
00:59:21,360 --> 00:59:25,120
Speaker 1: the book is just about what's what's what's next? Uh

1105
00:59:25,280 --> 00:59:28,880
Speaker 1: for your writing projects? Is uh? Is Drake going to

1106
00:59:28,960 --> 00:59:32,280
Speaker 1: get another book? Or is there anything else you're working on? Yeah?

1107
00:59:32,360 --> 00:59:35,400
Speaker 1: This is so, this is a three book deal. Um,

1108
00:59:35,480 --> 00:59:40,440
Speaker 1: So Drake is going to be still dealing with UM I,

1109
00:59:40,560 --> 00:59:43,920
Speaker 1: r g C. But you know in this in the

1110
00:59:44,000 --> 00:59:47,160
Speaker 1: second book, um the Presence of Evil, you know what

1111
00:59:47,360 --> 00:59:52,240
Speaker 1: happens if has a lot operative actually gets gets that

1112
00:59:52,360 --> 00:59:55,280
Speaker 1: you know, dirty bomb, the w m D. But what

1113
00:59:55,360 --> 00:59:58,040
Speaker 1: if the handlers in Iran realize okay, if this actually

1114
00:59:58,040 --> 01:00:03,160
Speaker 1: goes off, just screwed. And so you know, these guys

1115
01:00:03,200 --> 01:00:06,000
Speaker 1: are now having to send in a bunch of their

1116
01:00:06,040 --> 01:00:09,520
Speaker 1: operators to take out the Hezbollah network that they you know,

1117
01:00:09,560 --> 01:00:11,720
Speaker 1: have now thought, okay, this is a problem. We don't

1118
01:00:11,720 --> 01:00:13,600
Speaker 1: want to have more sanctions, we don't want ever tell

1119
01:00:13,640 --> 01:00:16,560
Speaker 1: it turns into like a three way fight, that's right.

1120
01:00:16,720 --> 01:00:19,160
Speaker 1: And yet at the same time you've got Drake who

1121
01:00:19,240 --> 01:00:22,720
Speaker 1: and his team are looking at it from huh, We're

1122
01:00:22,720 --> 01:00:25,080
Speaker 1: getting some signals here that the Iranians are sending in

1123
01:00:25,160 --> 01:00:28,360
Speaker 1: more operators. We gotta take them out. So I think

1124
01:00:28,360 --> 01:00:30,960
Speaker 1: that would be pretty interesting. Um. I've just turned in

1125
01:00:31,000 --> 01:00:33,560
Speaker 1: that manuscript, so that's in editing. And then the third

1126
01:00:33,560 --> 01:00:36,000
Speaker 1: one that I'm really excited about doing. And Jack, you

1127
01:00:36,040 --> 01:00:38,160
Speaker 1: and I you know, sat over a number of beers

1128
01:00:38,480 --> 01:00:43,280
Speaker 1: talking about this too, was um, it's it's called, um,

1129
01:00:43,440 --> 01:00:46,400
Speaker 1: what the hell is it even called the collision course? Um?

1130
01:00:46,520 --> 01:00:48,720
Speaker 1: And in this thing, it's it's going to be focused

1131
01:00:48,800 --> 01:00:53,240
Speaker 1: on Robin's sage and how you've got qualification course and

1132
01:00:53,240 --> 01:00:56,200
Speaker 1: that whole wilderness of mirrors of not knowing what is

1133
01:00:56,240 --> 01:00:58,800
Speaker 1: real what is not? Well, what if somebody exploits that

1134
01:00:59,400 --> 01:01:02,160
Speaker 1: and if as a murder in Pineland? And so I'm

1135
01:01:02,200 --> 01:01:04,600
Speaker 1: gonna throw my guys in the middle of that mess

1136
01:01:05,160 --> 01:01:07,280
Speaker 1: and uh and and and see if we can have

1137
01:01:07,360 --> 01:01:09,680
Speaker 1: some fun with that type of confusion that that could be. Yeah.

1138
01:01:09,760 --> 01:01:12,120
Speaker 1: I think last time I told you the story about

1139
01:01:12,200 --> 01:01:14,920
Speaker 1: the teams that accidentally go into their E and E

1140
01:01:15,040 --> 01:01:17,720
Speaker 1: corridors and the cadre don't see them for like two

1141
01:01:17,800 --> 01:01:20,920
Speaker 1: or three days until they're able to catch up with them.

1142
01:01:21,000 --> 01:01:23,160
Speaker 1: But yeah, hit me up about that down the line,

1143
01:01:23,160 --> 01:01:24,640
Speaker 1: and I might be able to put you in touch

1144
01:01:24,680 --> 01:01:28,280
Speaker 1: with some people who who work either volunteer or work

1145
01:01:28,280 --> 01:01:31,960
Speaker 1: out there at stage and some of the other courses

1146
01:01:32,400 --> 01:01:35,200
Speaker 1: pine ly into people. Um, maybe can help you out

1147
01:01:35,320 --> 01:01:37,560
Speaker 1: with the research a little bit, and that'd be great.

1148
01:01:37,560 --> 01:01:39,360
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, you know the books that I write,

1149
01:01:39,520 --> 01:01:41,520
Speaker 1: I'm not able to quit the job. I'm not making

1150
01:01:41,560 --> 01:01:43,400
Speaker 1: millions of dollars off these. I just want to have fun.

1151
01:01:43,440 --> 01:01:44,960
Speaker 1: I want the guys that have kind of been there,

1152
01:01:45,000 --> 01:01:47,000
Speaker 1: done that to read them, have a smile and say

1153
01:01:47,040 --> 01:01:49,640
Speaker 1: that's kind of cool. I don't think anybody's ever done

1154
01:01:49,880 --> 01:01:54,280
Speaker 1: you know, Robin Sage story. So I figured, you know,

1155
01:01:54,640 --> 01:01:56,920
Speaker 1: let's let's have some fun with that. So there's so

1156
01:01:56,920 --> 01:01:59,160
Speaker 1: many of the green Berrets out there that can look

1157
01:01:59,200 --> 01:02:01,320
Speaker 1: at it and say, holy crap, I could have seen

1158
01:02:01,360 --> 01:02:03,280
Speaker 1: that thing happening. You know, we thought the same thing.

1159
01:02:03,360 --> 01:02:06,000
Speaker 1: Or wasn't that fun? Um and a mess with that,

1160
01:02:06,080 --> 01:02:08,560
Speaker 1: just because you know, I just want somebody to be entertained.

1161
01:02:08,560 --> 01:02:11,960
Speaker 1: That's a little closer to it than than otherwise. Kensington

1162
01:02:12,120 --> 01:02:14,280
Speaker 1: has some heavy hitters too. I mean we've had a

1163
01:02:14,400 --> 01:02:17,600
Speaker 1: J Tata on the podcast former marine O No No.

1164
01:02:17,840 --> 01:02:20,480
Speaker 1: I'm thinking of Anderson Harp, former Marine, a J Tata,

1165
01:02:20,600 --> 01:02:25,000
Speaker 1: former Army Brigadier general. So it's kind of weird because

1166
01:02:25,040 --> 01:02:27,520
Speaker 1: I went to their little like banquet that they had.

1167
01:02:27,840 --> 01:02:31,040
Speaker 1: It was actually Tony Tata who invited me. And there's

1168
01:02:31,040 --> 01:02:34,440
Speaker 1: a lot of like romance novels on Kensington, but then

1169
01:02:34,480 --> 01:02:36,960
Speaker 1: there's a few there's like this niche group of guys

1170
01:02:37,160 --> 01:02:41,720
Speaker 1: who do what you do, bro bro bromance books. Yeah,

1171
01:02:41,840 --> 01:02:44,240
Speaker 1: you know it's and it's all on the editors. Um,

1172
01:02:44,320 --> 01:02:47,240
Speaker 1: John Gilstrap writes some great ones. He's got he's got

1173
01:02:47,240 --> 01:02:50,760
Speaker 1: adulta character that they're pretty good stories. And uh, of

1174
01:02:50,760 --> 01:02:55,080
Speaker 1: course Mark Cameron on the show there. So yeah, I

1175
01:02:55,120 --> 01:02:58,080
Speaker 1: think you know, they have they have their niche and uh,

1176
01:02:58,120 --> 01:03:01,160
Speaker 1: you know, the one thing about each of these publishing

1177
01:03:01,200 --> 01:03:04,240
Speaker 1: houses is they all want to have like their guy.

1178
01:03:04,320 --> 01:03:06,200
Speaker 1: You know, they're one guy who's going to go up

1179
01:03:06,240 --> 01:03:10,360
Speaker 1: against you know, Mark Greeny or Brad Taylor or whoever.

1180
01:03:10,400 --> 01:03:12,760
Speaker 1: You know, So who's your guy? And I think in

1181
01:03:13,440 --> 01:03:15,240
Speaker 1: you know, like where I'm coming in coming in through

1182
01:03:15,360 --> 01:03:17,800
Speaker 1: lyrical I think it's it's kind of like being in,

1183
01:03:18,000 --> 01:03:20,800
Speaker 1: you know, someone in the minor leagues of Okay, let's

1184
01:03:20,800 --> 01:03:22,600
Speaker 1: see if these guys, you know, if we throw them

1185
01:03:22,600 --> 01:03:25,200
Speaker 1: against the wall, who's gonna stick and who can be

1186
01:03:25,240 --> 01:03:28,000
Speaker 1: that next person. Um. So I'm just happy to have

1187
01:03:28,040 --> 01:03:30,800
Speaker 1: the opportunity to work with some of these guys. All

1188
01:03:30,840 --> 01:03:33,960
Speaker 1: the guys over at Kensington are great, um and really

1189
01:03:34,240 --> 01:03:36,800
Speaker 1: as you well know, Jack and and in you too,

1190
01:03:36,800 --> 01:03:40,080
Speaker 1: with you know, being on the UM the radio shows

1191
01:03:40,480 --> 01:03:43,240
Speaker 1: everybody in the military thriller community for the most part,

1192
01:03:43,440 --> 01:03:45,640
Speaker 1: it is really it's kind of fun to be around,

1193
01:03:46,000 --> 01:03:48,440
Speaker 1: and there's some great guys out there. There's a lot

1194
01:03:48,480 --> 01:03:51,080
Speaker 1: of give and take. Josh Hood and I you know,

1195
01:03:51,120 --> 01:03:55,960
Speaker 1: speak almost daily, just bouncing ideas back, so you know

1196
01:03:56,000 --> 01:03:58,520
Speaker 1: there's there's some there's some great folks out there. Mark

1197
01:03:58,520 --> 01:04:01,160
Speaker 1: Greeney has been fantastic. I just feel like, you know

1198
01:04:01,280 --> 01:04:05,040
Speaker 1: what I missed leaving that the mission support the intelligence community.

1199
01:04:05,040 --> 01:04:08,120
Speaker 1: I've kind of gotten it um back in the military

1200
01:04:08,160 --> 01:04:11,600
Speaker 1: thriller community, just because you've got so many like minded people,

1201
01:04:11,840 --> 01:04:15,560
Speaker 1: whether they served or not. Hey entirely off topic, but

1202
01:04:15,840 --> 01:04:18,400
Speaker 1: um for the people watching the YouTube video, which you

1203
01:04:18,440 --> 01:04:20,640
Speaker 1: know most people just listen to the audio. But I'm

1204
01:04:20,680 --> 01:04:23,200
Speaker 1: just curious, what is that, like sports memorability behind you.

1205
01:04:23,280 --> 01:04:26,480
Speaker 1: I'm trying to figure out what it is I've got.

1206
01:04:26,600 --> 01:04:29,160
Speaker 1: Let's see, so I'm in Chicago here, so we've got

1207
01:04:29,360 --> 01:04:31,640
Speaker 1: I was thinking there was something Michael Jordan. I saw

1208
01:04:31,640 --> 01:04:34,760
Speaker 1: the red and got street names up there. We've got Clark,

1209
01:04:34,800 --> 01:04:37,720
Speaker 1: Wavel and Sheffield back over the air hockey table. We've

1210
01:04:37,720 --> 01:04:40,720
Speaker 1: got all the Hawks stuff. We've got got some Bulls

1211
01:04:40,760 --> 01:04:42,880
Speaker 1: things over there. We've got other Cubs things, We've got

1212
01:04:42,920 --> 01:04:47,320
Speaker 1: the Christmas trios, and we're recording this free Thanksgiving Day.

1213
01:04:47,440 --> 01:04:52,919
Speaker 1: So so yeah, we like our Chicago sports around here. Nice.

1214
01:04:52,960 --> 01:04:55,560
Speaker 1: That's very cool. I was just curious, but um so

1215
01:04:55,800 --> 01:04:59,520
Speaker 1: follow A JT. Patton on Twitter at j T. Pattent

1216
01:04:59,600 --> 01:05:03,440
Speaker 1: Books j T p A T. T. E and Books JT.

1217
01:05:03,640 --> 01:05:07,240
Speaker 1: Patent books dot com and pick up the new book,

1218
01:05:07,320 --> 01:05:09,760
Speaker 1: Buried in Black. It's out, like I said, today is

1219
01:05:09,800 --> 01:05:12,800
Speaker 1: a recording it out this week. I guess as you're

1220
01:05:12,800 --> 01:05:15,720
Speaker 1: at Black Friday shopping or you know, most likely just

1221
01:05:15,800 --> 01:05:18,320
Speaker 1: on Amazon, pick it up. This is Yeah, it's good

1222
01:05:18,320 --> 01:05:21,200
Speaker 1: holiday reading. Good good book to get as a gift

1223
01:05:21,280 --> 01:05:24,960
Speaker 1: Christmas gift for family member that's into either espionage or

1224
01:05:25,000 --> 01:05:28,600
Speaker 1: counter terrorism, you know, military thrillers. It'll be up there alley.

1225
01:05:28,840 --> 01:05:31,040
Speaker 1: Like I said, I'm two d pages into it. I'm

1226
01:05:31,040 --> 01:05:33,880
Speaker 1: gonna finish reading it over the next day or two. Um,

1227
01:05:33,920 --> 01:05:36,680
Speaker 1: it's definitely worth picking up. Yeah, I think it's it's

1228
01:05:36,760 --> 01:05:39,240
Speaker 1: something at least different. You know, it's I wouldn't put

1229
01:05:39,280 --> 01:05:41,680
Speaker 1: myself in the classes some of these great writers, but

1230
01:05:41,760 --> 01:05:44,240
Speaker 1: I think it's all a fun story. It's something different.

1231
01:05:44,280 --> 01:05:48,120
Speaker 1: It's a unique vantage into the uh JSUK community. If

1232
01:05:48,160 --> 01:05:50,280
Speaker 1: you haven't seen it, so you know, give it a try,

1233
01:05:50,360 --> 01:05:51,760
Speaker 1: just to see if that might be something else that

1234
01:05:51,800 --> 01:05:53,800
Speaker 1: picks your interest. I don't think it gets too bogged

1235
01:05:53,800 --> 01:05:56,520
Speaker 1: down in the technical stuff either. No, I think it's

1236
01:05:56,520 --> 01:05:59,800
Speaker 1: a it's a very interesting, unique take and I think, uh,

1237
01:06:00,240 --> 01:06:02,320
Speaker 1: if our listeners go and read it, I think they'll

1238
01:06:02,320 --> 01:06:04,240
Speaker 1: come back to us and have a bunch of additional

1239
01:06:04,320 --> 01:06:08,160
Speaker 1: questions they're gonna want to ask you. Well, that sounds good,

1240
01:06:08,200 --> 01:06:09,960
Speaker 1: you know, happy to answer your questions or hit me

1241
01:06:10,040 --> 01:06:13,560
Speaker 1: up on social media, and especially about the micro dosing.

1242
01:06:15,320 --> 01:06:16,959
Speaker 1: Hopefully we'll have you back on. I mean the last

1243
01:06:17,000 --> 01:06:18,960
Speaker 1: time we had you on, as we were saying, a

1244
01:06:19,000 --> 01:06:22,000
Speaker 1: couple of years back, so it's been a while, um,

1245
01:06:22,040 --> 01:06:24,480
Speaker 1: and I'm glad that we did this again, and I'm

1246
01:06:24,520 --> 01:06:26,840
Speaker 1: sure we will in the future as as we're working

1247
01:06:26,840 --> 01:06:29,520
Speaker 1: on new stuff. And it's just cool to see you

1248
01:06:29,520 --> 01:06:31,560
Speaker 1: pumping out these books as as you said, it's not

1249
01:06:31,600 --> 01:06:33,560
Speaker 1: your full time job, and yet you're still making the

1250
01:06:33,600 --> 01:06:38,200
Speaker 1: time to continually do this and people love them. Cool. Well,

1251
01:06:38,200 --> 01:06:40,320
Speaker 1: thank you so much. Appreciate you'll having me on. Yeah,

1252
01:06:40,360 --> 01:06:42,600
Speaker 1: thank you. We'll do it again soon. See you guys.

1253
01:06:42,640 --> 01:06:45,240
Speaker 1: Have a good holiday, all right, you too, Thanks, appreciate

1254
01:06:45,280 --> 01:06:51,760
Speaker 1: it alright. So wrapping things up here, guys, be sure

1255
01:06:51,800 --> 01:06:55,480
Speaker 1: to check out Great Club. Uh that collaboration watch we

1256
01:06:55,520 --> 01:06:58,280
Speaker 1: did with the NFW watches Jack has it or you're

1257
01:06:58,280 --> 01:07:01,520
Speaker 1: not wearing today you've warned it but for But we

1258
01:07:01,560 --> 01:07:04,080
Speaker 1: have different tiers of membership depending on how prepared you

1259
01:07:04,120 --> 01:07:06,720
Speaker 1: want to be, and gift options are available as well.

1260
01:07:06,960 --> 01:07:09,120
Speaker 1: The guys from the load out room and Scott Whittner

1261
01:07:09,200 --> 01:07:11,320
Speaker 1: have a lot to do with what we're putting out there.

1262
01:07:13,040 --> 01:07:16,560
Speaker 1: It's gonna be all custom products entirely. It's a club

1263
01:07:16,640 --> 01:07:19,040
Speaker 1: foremen by men. You can check that all out of

1264
01:07:19,120 --> 01:07:22,960
Speaker 1: Great Club dot Us. Once again, that's Great Club dot Us.

1265
01:07:23,120 --> 01:07:25,840
Speaker 1: If you're a dog owner, doesn't matter the size of

1266
01:07:25,880 --> 01:07:30,360
Speaker 1: your dog, Kuna has a custom built box for your dog,

1267
01:07:30,440 --> 01:07:32,840
Speaker 1: so it doesn't matter the weight or the breed. They'll

1268
01:07:32,880 --> 01:07:35,880
Speaker 1: hook it up for you. UM, And that's our monthly

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01:07:36,320 --> 01:07:39,680
Speaker 1: box that we've partnered with Kuna for So that's Kuna

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Speaker 1: dot Dog cu n A dot d O g sufficient

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Speaker 1: and your dog's gonna love it. And it's easier for you,

1272
01:07:47,560 --> 01:07:49,800
Speaker 1: you know, just every month you're getting these great treats

1273
01:07:49,840 --> 01:07:53,320
Speaker 1: and training aids in the mail. UM, stuff like probiotics

1274
01:07:53,320 --> 01:07:55,440
Speaker 1: for a dog, which is you know, great keeping your

1275
01:07:55,440 --> 01:07:58,120
Speaker 1: dog healthy. UM. And that is a reminder. For a

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01:07:58,120 --> 01:08:01,920
Speaker 1: limited time, you can receive a fifty percent discounted membership

1277
01:08:02,200 --> 01:08:05,520
Speaker 1: to the spec Ops Channel. That's our channel that offers

1278
01:08:05,520 --> 01:08:10,280
Speaker 1: the most exclusive shows, documentaries and interviews covering the most

1279
01:08:10,320 --> 01:08:14,680
Speaker 1: exciting military content today. The spec Ops channel premier show

1280
01:08:14,760 --> 01:08:19,880
Speaker 1: Training Cell follows former Special Operations Forces as they participate

1281
01:08:19,920 --> 01:08:22,479
Speaker 1: in the most advanced training in the country, everything from

1282
01:08:22,479 --> 01:08:27,840
Speaker 1: shooting schools, defensive driving, jungle and winter warfare, climbing and

1283
01:08:27,960 --> 01:08:31,400
Speaker 1: much more. Again, you can watch this content by subscribing

1284
01:08:31,439 --> 01:08:33,960
Speaker 1: to the spec Ops Channel that's at spec ops channel

1285
01:08:34,040 --> 01:08:38,000
Speaker 1: dot com. Four a month. Really can't beat that for

1286
01:08:38,040 --> 01:08:41,120
Speaker 1: all the content. And uh, I'm sure many of you

1287
01:08:41,200 --> 01:08:43,559
Speaker 1: are enjoying a nice four day weekend, so I hope

1288
01:08:43,560 --> 01:08:46,960
Speaker 1: you enjoyed your Thanksgiving day, uh and are enjoying this

1289
01:08:47,040 --> 01:08:50,519
Speaker 1: post Thanksgiving Day. I am not gonna lie you. Guys

1290
01:08:50,560 --> 01:08:52,800
Speaker 1: watching the video may have noticed I'm getting a little

1291
01:08:52,840 --> 01:08:55,560
Speaker 1: antsy here because recording two shows you get antsy and

1292
01:08:55,600 --> 01:08:58,559
Speaker 1: your pants. I'm like, I'm just I'm fidgety right now

1293
01:08:58,560 --> 01:09:00,720
Speaker 1: because we've been sitting down for like, I don't know,

1294
01:09:00,960 --> 01:09:04,679
Speaker 1: a good four hours almost at this point. So yeah, yeah,

1295
01:09:04,760 --> 01:09:07,559
Speaker 1: we've we've recorded a lot. Yea. We knocked out two

1296
01:09:07,560 --> 01:09:09,960
Speaker 1: podcasts in one day, so we'd have, you know, an

1297
01:09:09,960 --> 01:09:13,760
Speaker 1: original episode for you guys over Thanksgiving. Well, we're out.

1298
01:09:13,880 --> 01:09:16,200
Speaker 1: I just holiday to Yeah, I just know it's a

1299
01:09:16,200 --> 01:09:18,120
Speaker 1: lot for me to sit down this long because I

1300
01:09:18,520 --> 01:09:21,479
Speaker 1: think even when I worked on long shows prior to this,

1301
01:09:21,920 --> 01:09:24,759
Speaker 1: you know, there's a little there's commercial breaks, I'm walking around.

1302
01:09:24,960 --> 01:09:26,679
Speaker 1: I couldn't tell you the last time I've just sat

1303
01:09:26,720 --> 01:09:28,639
Speaker 1: down this long, and I'm like, I'm ready to get

1304
01:09:28,720 --> 01:09:32,439
Speaker 1: up and start moving. Millennials, you're all a d D

1305
01:09:32,640 --> 01:09:35,080
Speaker 1: how much older you than me? I'm thirty two years old.

1306
01:09:36,200 --> 01:09:39,840
Speaker 1: I saw the topic of z zennial. Have you seen

1307
01:09:39,880 --> 01:09:43,040
Speaker 1: people put that out online? They said that, so I'd

1308
01:09:43,040 --> 01:09:45,720
Speaker 1: technically be as zennial. We're like the last people who

1309
01:09:45,800 --> 01:09:48,960
Speaker 1: grew up like without the smartphone. I think we're all

1310
01:09:48,960 --> 01:09:51,240
Speaker 1: in the same category as well. Yeah, yeah, And I

1311
01:09:51,240 --> 01:09:53,479
Speaker 1: think we talked about it before, like I had a walkman,

1312
01:09:53,760 --> 01:09:55,880
Speaker 1: you know, like cassettes. I mean, my parents had a

1313
01:09:55,920 --> 01:09:59,960
Speaker 1: record player. We saw the the blue screen Macintosh, remember

1314
01:10:00,000 --> 01:10:02,439
Speaker 1: all that screen, yea, the green screen and then the

1315
01:10:02,479 --> 01:10:07,599
Speaker 1: blue screen. Thinking, yeah, I couldn't imagine though growing up

1316
01:10:07,680 --> 01:10:12,960
Speaker 1: like social media immediately, I mean, like your daughter, it's interesting. Uh.

1317
01:10:12,960 --> 01:10:15,759
Speaker 1: But anyway, as I said, I'm not gonna lie getting

1318
01:10:15,760 --> 01:10:18,519
Speaker 1: fidgety here, I need to move around. Hope you guys

1319
01:10:18,840 --> 01:10:23,519
Speaker 1: enjoyed this episode and the last episode, and we'll be

1320
01:10:23,560 --> 01:10:26,439
Speaker 1: back on you know, Wednesday, will the new episode up.

1321
01:10:26,520 --> 01:10:28,559
Speaker 1: We have some great people coming on. We have a

1322
01:10:28,600 --> 01:10:31,559
Speaker 1: gold Star sister coming on and Quinn Emerson will be

1323
01:10:31,560 --> 01:10:34,000
Speaker 1: back on for the first time in a while. Then

1324
01:10:34,040 --> 01:10:36,200
Speaker 1: we have another weeks shows and then I am off

1325
01:10:36,200 --> 01:10:38,080
Speaker 1: to Florida for a week and I'm gonna make Uh.

1326
01:10:38,160 --> 01:10:41,320
Speaker 1: I already know what I'm gonna do. I think we

1327
01:10:41,320 --> 01:10:43,360
Speaker 1: we did some great stuff for Power of Thought that

1328
01:10:43,479 --> 01:10:45,680
Speaker 1: a lot of you guys have never heard. So I

1329
01:10:45,680 --> 01:10:48,720
Speaker 1: think I'm gonna play some of that, including what I

1330
01:10:48,840 --> 01:10:52,800
Speaker 1: believe is probably the last interview Captain Jerry Yellen did

1331
01:10:53,160 --> 01:10:58,160
Speaker 1: who flew the UM Final mission over Japan, and Brandon

1332
01:10:58,200 --> 01:11:00,439
Speaker 1: interviewed him on the Power of Thought. It's like a

1333
01:11:00,439 --> 01:11:03,639
Speaker 1: perfect software interview. So I think we'll put it on there. Uh,

1334
01:11:03,760 --> 01:11:05,760
Speaker 1: such a I was going to suggest, you know, just

1335
01:11:05,800 --> 01:11:08,080
Speaker 1: coming to the gym and recording me working out, but

1336
01:11:08,600 --> 01:11:10,800
Speaker 1: that's actually a lot better. Yeah, that would be cool,

1337
01:11:10,800 --> 01:11:12,439
Speaker 1: So I'll put that up. And and it's just such

1338
01:11:12,439 --> 01:11:16,840
Speaker 1: an interesting story that his son then married a Japanese

1339
01:11:16,840 --> 01:11:19,360
Speaker 1: girl from Japan, and that whole story of kind of

1340
01:11:19,400 --> 01:11:22,639
Speaker 1: like a coming together of two cultures. And I want

1341
01:11:22,640 --> 01:11:24,840
Speaker 1: to listen to this myself. It sounds like that Clint

1342
01:11:24,880 --> 01:11:27,960
Speaker 1: Eastwood movie. Yeah, it sort of is. And then shortly

1343
01:11:28,040 --> 01:11:30,760
Speaker 1: after that interview, Jerry Yellen passed away. So it was

1344
01:11:30,800 --> 01:11:32,559
Speaker 1: just great to get him on the show. I remember

1345
01:11:32,600 --> 01:11:36,000
Speaker 1: Brandon so so Jerry Yellen was still like flying around

1346
01:11:36,040 --> 01:11:39,479
Speaker 1: in his nineties and and Brandon invited him to come,

1347
01:11:39,680 --> 01:11:41,920
Speaker 1: you know, in the plane and everything, and he was like, yeah,

1348
01:11:41,960 --> 01:11:43,559
Speaker 1: I'm all for it. He was like, can I still

1349
01:11:43,600 --> 01:11:46,160
Speaker 1: do barre rolls and all that, and he was all

1350
01:11:46,240 --> 01:11:50,240
Speaker 1: up for it. But unfortunately couldn't you know, take take

1351
01:11:50,320 --> 01:11:52,280
Speaker 1: him up on that offer, because, like I said, just

1352
01:11:52,320 --> 01:11:54,240
Speaker 1: a few months later he passed away. But it was

1353
01:11:54,240 --> 01:11:57,000
Speaker 1: a great interview, so I think I'll use that. I

1354
01:11:57,040 --> 01:11:58,760
Speaker 1: may use like the c J. Ramon that we did

1355
01:11:58,760 --> 01:12:01,680
Speaker 1: in the Power Thought. But anyway, we're wrapping up November

1356
01:12:02,000 --> 01:12:04,080
Speaker 1: and then December and the New Year is right around

1357
01:12:04,120 --> 01:12:06,519
Speaker 1: the corner. As crazy as it is, Yeah, I mean,

1358
01:12:06,600 --> 01:12:08,599
Speaker 1: this is a crazy time of the year, always is

1359
01:12:08,640 --> 01:12:11,800
Speaker 1: always for me um podcast. Like I said, I mean,

1360
01:12:11,840 --> 01:12:13,680
Speaker 1: we're becoming a hot item. We got a lot of

1361
01:12:13,960 --> 01:12:17,400
Speaker 1: guests scheduled in. Yeah. Yeah, every there's like so many

1362
01:12:17,400 --> 01:12:19,240
Speaker 1: people I need to get and then Brandon will email

1363
01:12:19,320 --> 01:12:22,200
Speaker 1: me get this guy in the podcast. You two and

1364
01:12:22,520 --> 01:12:24,639
Speaker 1: I can only get people into the new year. Yeah,

1365
01:12:24,680 --> 01:12:26,840
Speaker 1: there's there's more people trying to get in then we

1366
01:12:26,840 --> 01:12:29,360
Speaker 1: can schedule unfortunately. Yeah, and then on top of that,

1367
01:12:29,360 --> 01:12:31,160
Speaker 1: I get the emails if you gotta get this guy,

1368
01:12:31,360 --> 01:12:32,840
Speaker 1: you gotta get this gun, and a lot of them

1369
01:12:32,840 --> 01:12:35,040
Speaker 1: are good. You know. It's just there's only so much

1370
01:12:35,120 --> 01:12:37,679
Speaker 1: we could do unless this was like a daily show.

1371
01:12:37,960 --> 01:12:39,840
Speaker 1: You come up with some people too, who I'm kind

1372
01:12:39,840 --> 01:12:42,559
Speaker 1: of skeptical about it first, but like they almost always

1373
01:12:42,560 --> 01:12:44,439
Speaker 1: turned out to be great. Like when we had Ricky

1374
01:12:44,439 --> 01:12:46,920
Speaker 1: Poe on, your friend that you know from the gym, like,

1375
01:12:47,040 --> 01:12:48,840
Speaker 1: it was fun. Yeah, I didn't know I had I

1376
01:12:48,880 --> 01:12:50,720
Speaker 1: don't know him or I didn't know him. I had

1377
01:12:50,720 --> 01:12:53,040
Speaker 1: no idea what to expect, but he was awesome. Yeah. Yeah,

1378
01:12:53,040 --> 01:12:55,200
Speaker 1: he's a really cool guy. So yeah, I mean, if

1379
01:12:55,240 --> 01:12:57,560
Speaker 1: someone is interesting, we'll add them on and they're a

1380
01:12:57,600 --> 01:13:00,760
Speaker 1: part of this community. And uh, I think generally mean

1381
01:13:00,840 --> 01:13:02,760
Speaker 1: that there there hasn't been a show in a long

1382
01:13:02,800 --> 01:13:04,560
Speaker 1: time where I've been like I wasn't a fan of that.

1383
01:13:04,600 --> 01:13:07,439
Speaker 1: I think we've been pretty concerned strongly. You know, you

1384
01:13:07,520 --> 01:13:09,519
Speaker 1: never know because sometimes you get people on who have

1385
01:13:09,640 --> 01:13:11,960
Speaker 1: never done podcasts before and never done and they get

1386
01:13:11,960 --> 01:13:15,120
Speaker 1: a little nervously as yeah, I belie've seen people, Um

1387
01:13:15,160 --> 01:13:18,080
Speaker 1: I think warm up, you know, like even Jeff Depozzi

1388
01:13:18,960 --> 01:13:22,040
Speaker 1: from JTS. Yeah, I think the first few minutes he

1389
01:13:22,080 --> 01:13:24,080
Speaker 1: was a little bit empty and then he got comfortable.

1390
01:13:24,600 --> 01:13:29,479
Speaker 1: Yeah cool. Alright, Well, um, I'm just stalling here because

1391
01:13:29,520 --> 01:13:32,439
Speaker 1: I want to hit our outro and uh wrap this

1392
01:13:32,520 --> 01:13:36,479
Speaker 1: up for you guys. But there we go. As I

1393
01:13:36,520 --> 01:13:39,120
Speaker 1: always appreciate you guys checking this out and leave a

1394
01:13:39,160 --> 01:13:44,759
Speaker 1: review on Apple Podcasts. Yeah, happy Thanksgiving. Yeah, Happy Thanksgiving everybody.

1395
01:13:44,800 --> 01:13:48,600
Speaker 1: Hope you enjoyed, and follow us on Twitter and Instagram

1396
01:13:48,680 --> 01:13:51,160
Speaker 1: at Software Radio. I don't say it often enough so

1397
01:13:51,200 --> 01:13:54,600
Speaker 1: you can follow Jack on Twitter at Jack Murphy r

1398
01:13:54,640 --> 01:13:58,559
Speaker 1: GR on Instagram at Jack McMurphy. You could follow me

1399
01:13:58,640 --> 01:14:02,280
Speaker 1: on Twitter at the Auto And that's really it. We're

1400
01:14:02,320 --> 01:14:04,760
Speaker 1: gonna have new poward thoughts coming up soon as well,

1401
01:14:04,840 --> 01:14:07,960
Speaker 1: so if you're not not subscribe to that, subscribe there

1402
01:14:08,000 --> 01:14:31,840
Speaker 1: as well. And that's about it. Guys, appreciate it. You've

1403
01:14:31,880 --> 01:14:36,240
Speaker 1: been listening to Self Rep Radio. New episodes up every

1404
01:14:36,240 --> 01:14:40,320
Speaker 1: Wednesday and Friday. Follow the show on Instagram and Twitter

1405
01:14:40,720 --> 01:15:02,880
Speaker 1: at self Rep Radio s