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Speaker 1: Hello, everybody, Welcome to another episode of The Chuck Podcast.

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Speaker 1: It is post July fourth. I hope everybody had a

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Speaker 1: enjoyable holiday. If if you wanted rest, I hope you

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Speaker 1: got it. If you did some activities. I know I'm

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Speaker 1: a huge griller, I'm a huge water activity guy, so

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Speaker 1: I did a lot of that. I'll be honest. Now

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Speaker 1: I feel like I need to do some resting. But

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Speaker 1: we're back. I hope you were able to avoid political

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Speaker 1: discussions and then we could have a red, white, and

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Speaker 1: blue Fourth of July, and that you didn't get stuck

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Speaker 1: either having a red Fourth of July or a blue

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Speaker 1: Fourth of July without any any sort of any sort

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Speaker 1: of less than patriotic feeling. And I understand the frustrations

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Speaker 1: many feel about the direction of this country these days,

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Speaker 1: but we do need to celebrate what was a tremendous

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Speaker 1: idea and still the shot heard around the world. And

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Speaker 1: I also want to welcome a whole bunch of new

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Speaker 1: subscribers and listeners who've come in over the last couple

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Speaker 1: of weeks. I've noticed this. I think it's great. I

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Speaker 1: appreciate it. Glad to see more people discovering where I'm

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Speaker 1: hanging my hat, and I know the frustrations traditional media,

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Speaker 1: especially the media owners, are doing some terrible decisions and

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Speaker 1: capitulation and no longer protecting the First Amendment and basically

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Speaker 1: selling out their own news divisions. I'm sorry for that,

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Speaker 1: but that's why we have this independent media space, and

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Speaker 1: I am pleased to be here. I've got a packed

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Speaker 1: episode here. We're going to talk a little bit about

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Speaker 1: what happened in Texas and what's going on with frankly,

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Speaker 1: the politics of weather these days. We'll also tackle Elon

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Speaker 1: Musk's sudden interest in a third party obviously, you know

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Speaker 1: those of you who have been listening a lot recently.

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Speaker 1: No where my head is on that. Let's just say

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Speaker 1: I have some strong opinions about where mister Musk wants

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Speaker 1: to head there. And then I want to tackle this

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Speaker 1: idea of governing via retribution. Can you really be the

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Speaker 1: president of the United States and hate half the country

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Speaker 1: and announce that you hate half the country? More importantly,

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Speaker 1: what happens when governors and senators decide to play that

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Speaker 1: kind of retribution politics. What happens when military veterans get

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Speaker 1: caught into that trap? The story about that later in

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Speaker 1: this show and also an interview with the three directors,

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Speaker 1: and yes there were three different directors for a fascinating

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Speaker 1: documentary that's about essentially it started as it was going

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Speaker 1: to be about the fiftieth anniversary of Miss Magazine. But

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Speaker 1: what it really is is a history of the women's

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Speaker 1: movement through the prism of Miss Magazine. It's I think

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Speaker 1: if you're a political junkie, regardless of your ideology, regardless

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Speaker 1: of your gender, this documentary is going to be hitting.

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Speaker 1: I believe it's the world of Max HBO. You have

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Speaker 1: got to check this out. It is worth your time.

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Speaker 1: It is fantastic and I know you'll enjoy this conversation.

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Speaker 1: So just giving you a lay of the land on

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Speaker 1: this epic So, but let's dig right in. Let me

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Speaker 1: talk about the devastating tragedy in Central Texas. Feel like

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Speaker 1: every couple hours the deaththol increases. It's awful, and it's

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Speaker 1: a stark reminder that we are simply not ready as

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Speaker 1: a country for this era of extreme weather that we're

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Speaker 1: now living in. And one of the reasons we're not

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Speaker 1: ready it's not science, it's not technology, it is politics.

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Speaker 1: The the story itself is already becoming a case study

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Speaker 1: and how broken our debate is over weather preparedness and

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Speaker 1: climate resilience, and how it's only going to get more

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Speaker 1: dysfunctional if we don't sort of nip this in the butt.

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Speaker 1: We've already seen the political spin starting to fly. In

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Speaker 1: the right. You've got folks trying to blame the Biden

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Speaker 1: administration's femal leadership or dredging up old years old infrastructure decisions,

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Speaker 1: hoping to deflect accountability. That's not new. Every administration in

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Speaker 1: its first year looks tries to blame problems on a

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Speaker 1: past administration when a disaster strikes. We saw that with

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Speaker 1: Sean Duffy in the Transportation Apartment after the plane crash

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Speaker 1: at National Airport. Sadly, that is politics one oh one.

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Speaker 1: In some ways you sort of see it. Trust me.

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Speaker 1: The Obama administration in the first year blamed a lot

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Speaker 1: of things on the Bush administration. So this is not

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Speaker 1: that is not a new thing. But here's the thing

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Speaker 1: on this one, it's not just the right doing it

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Speaker 1: on this one. On the left, there's been in equally

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Speaker 1: knee jerk reaction, a rush to blame recent budget cuts

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Speaker 1: at the National Weather Service. Now, let me be clear,

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Speaker 1: those cuts are real, and they are dangerous for the future.

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Speaker 1: Long term underfunding the National Weather Service is a horrendous idea,

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Speaker 1: But in this case, there's no evidence that those cuts

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Speaker 1: at the moment played any role in this tragedy that

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Speaker 1: unfolded in Texas. So be careful leading with that narrative,

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Speaker 1: especially without the facts being able to support you.

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Speaker 2: There.

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Speaker 1: That doesn't help the situation. It actually only politicizes the

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Speaker 1: crisis even more from the other side. And that's the

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Speaker 1: point and the problem. The politics themselves have become a virus,

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Speaker 1: particularly look the Rights of Session. They hear the words

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Speaker 1: climate change and they go banker. They think it's politics,

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Speaker 1: when actually it's a scientific term. And this is a

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Speaker 1: virus and infects our ability to do the basic things

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Speaker 1: like plan ahead, invest in infrastructure, and protect and save lives. Okay,

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of dead people that may not have

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Speaker 1: had to die if we were willing to, if we

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Speaker 1: had the political will to prepare and advance for problems,

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Speaker 1: rather than chalking up warnings as woke or or environmental

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Speaker 1: wokeness or whatever you want to call it. And guess

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Speaker 1: what the reality is. No community these days red or

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Speaker 1: blue is truly prepared for what's coming with extreme weather.

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Speaker 1: These so called one hundred year floods, five hundred year

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Speaker 1: storms are coming every few years now, not every hundred years,

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Speaker 1: every couple of years, and our systems, our budgets, and

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Speaker 1: our political instincts are still stuck in the mid twentieth century,

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Speaker 1: not even late twentieth century. We've already learned that in

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Speaker 1: this Texas case, there had been efforts to build a

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Speaker 1: more modern local emergency system along that river then ended

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Speaker 1: up flooding, but the cost would have fallen mostly on

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Speaker 1: local tax payers in it, and there was sticker shock,

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Speaker 1: if you will, and surprise, surprise, local officials ended up blinking,

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Speaker 1: wouldn't pay for it, didn't want to get voters mad

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Speaker 1: at them, because the voters don't like to pay for

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Speaker 1: things that might not happen, of course, until they do,

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Speaker 1: all right, voters, I always say this, voters don't know

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Speaker 1: always what they don't know what they want, but they

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Speaker 1: sure do know what they don't want, and they don't

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Speaker 1: want to pay more for anything. But they want all

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Speaker 1: those services, don't they. And that's one of the root

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Speaker 1: causes actually of a lot of our problems. It's the

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Speaker 1: root cause of our national debt, right fear of trying

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Speaker 1: to do something in advance because it'll be unpopular, and

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Speaker 1: maybe they'll have to be a slight tax site or

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Speaker 1: a slight spending cut somewhere that people won't like. And

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Speaker 1: then of course voters will punish politicians. They don't reward

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Speaker 1: politicians who prepare for messes before they happen. They only

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Speaker 1: reward politicians who clean up the messes after they happen.

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Speaker 1: Preventative medicine, preventative budgeting, preventative weather, infrastructure, all of that

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Speaker 1: sounds like big government until it's too late, and then

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Speaker 1: people rightfully ask, how come we didn't prepare? How come

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Speaker 1: you didn't fight harder. It's actually something we've discussed on

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Speaker 1: this very podcast. I had the former governor of North Carolina,

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Speaker 1: Pat McCrery, a long time Republican, and we were talking

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Speaker 1: about this issue of FEMA because Donald Trump wants to

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Speaker 1: get rid of FEMA because he doesn't want the responsibility

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Speaker 1: of natural disasters. He wants somebody else to blame, and

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Speaker 1: he just wants FEMA to just hand out checks and

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Speaker 1: that's it, and not be responsible for actual disaster response.

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Speaker 1: Some states can handle that. Some states will not be

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Speaker 1: able to handle that, and you will see a disaster

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Speaker 1: become a recovery disaster on top of the actual natural disaster.

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Speaker 1: So look, it's not easy. Locals can get ahead of

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Speaker 1: these problems, at least know what is needed to get

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Speaker 1: ahead of some of these problems on the state and

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Speaker 1: local level. The question is whether they can actually get

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Speaker 1: the money to do some of these things right, because

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Speaker 1: that's what's unpopular, paying for these things in advance, and

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Speaker 1: that's frankly where the federal government sometimes needs to come in.

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Speaker 1: They up have to incentivize these local communities, whether it's

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Speaker 1: to bury power lines, which many local communities mine in

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Speaker 1: Virginia have not done because all the NIMBI stuff, there's

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Speaker 1: always one person doesn't one in their yard messed up,

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Speaker 1: and they don't want to pay for it. These are

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Speaker 1: the things the federal government's got to incentivize better to

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Speaker 1: get local states to do these preventative things, whether it's

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Speaker 1: warning systems on floods for tornadoes, because guess what, you

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Speaker 1: actually will save money in the long run, and oh,

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Speaker 1: by the way, you'll save lives too. And yet every

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Speaker 1: time a disaster strikes, when we don't want you know,

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Speaker 1: we claim we don't want the minute though it disaster strikes.

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Speaker 1: We're desperate for the government. We're desperate for action, and

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Speaker 1: you can have that if you don't have some preparedness

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Speaker 1: in advance. Now, the challenge is that the politics of

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Speaker 1: weather have become almost as unpredictable as the weather. It's up.

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Speaker 1: Any attempt to spend money on resilience gets framed as

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Speaker 1: a left wing environmental wokeness conspiracy. Entire industries, from fossil

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Speaker 1: fuels to real estate quietly fund talking heads and columnists

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Speaker 1: who downplay the risks and delay an actual response that's necessary.

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Speaker 1: They muddy the conversation, and so by the time a

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Speaker 1: storm hits, we've already lost the argument. The insurance industry, though,

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Speaker 1: they're not going to wait, and they're already acting. In fact,

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Speaker 1: they've often the first to sound the alarm. And how

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Speaker 1: do they sound the alarm? They just pull out of

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Speaker 1: high risk zones and suddenly people in this area can't

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Speaker 1: get insurance, or they can get insurance, but they got

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Speaker 1: to take out a second mortgage in order to pay

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Speaker 1: for their insurance. And so guess what. In some ways,

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Speaker 1: you have to figure out when are you going to

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Speaker 1: want to pay. Okay, that's the bottom line. You can

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Speaker 1: pay in higher insurance rates, or you can pay a

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Speaker 1: little bit in advance in higher taxes. Maybe it's local

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Speaker 1: real estate taxes, maybe it's an assessment fee, maybe it's something.

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Speaker 1: But a small down payment actually might save you money

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Speaker 1: in the long run. But trying to get the public

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Speaker 1: to accept something like that, trying to get politicians to

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Speaker 1: be disciplined and to actually make that case instead of

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Speaker 1: finding an opportunity to exploit and say, oh, they just

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Speaker 1: want to waste your tax dollars on some environmental mumbo

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Speaker 1: jumbo until suddenly you know that warning system wasn't there

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Speaker 1: because it was too pricey, and now we have more

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Speaker 1: people dead than perhaps was necessary. So look, we've got

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Speaker 1: extreme weather all over this country. This is going to

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Speaker 1: be a political debate that is only going to continue.

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Speaker 1: It's only going to get nastier this back and forth.

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Speaker 1: And the fact of the matter is we're all going

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Speaker 1: to be paying a higher price for something. The question

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Speaker 1: is when do you want to pay and do you

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Speaker 1: want to pay as little as possible if you have

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Speaker 1: to pay more, or do you want to end up

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Speaker 1: being potentially on the hook for massive amounts of both

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Speaker 1: financial disruption and frankly, life disruption because the massive cleanups

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Speaker 1: will take long or the rebuilds will take longer. A

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Speaker 1: little preventative, you know, better flood walls, better warning systems,

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Speaker 1: won't just save lives, saves infrastructure and again saves money.

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Speaker 1: But the politics of this is broken. You've got a

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Speaker 1: Republican Party that too many people think by saying the

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Speaker 1: word climate change that they're somehow accepting the premise of

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Speaker 1: a left wing talking point when it's just frickin' science. Okay,

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Speaker 1: the climate is changing. We can throw out the debate

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Speaker 1: of whether how much man versus industry versus just normal

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Speaker 1: evolution is the cause of this. It doesn't matter. We're

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Speaker 1: all got to live here, we've all got to figure

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Speaker 1: out how to adapt, and we've got to make our

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Speaker 1: communities more resilient, pure and simple, because it doesn't matter.

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Speaker 1: This is not just a coastal problem in California or Florida.

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Speaker 1: This is happening in Central Texas, This is happening in Kentucky,

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Speaker 1: this is happening in a guess where, It's happening in

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Speaker 1: every fricking state. Okay, And the insurance industry is not

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Speaker 1: going to pay for it. They're going to make you

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Speaker 1: and I pay for it, So we're all going to

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Speaker 1: pay in some form. And this is the case, This

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Speaker 1: is where government actually is supposed to work its best.

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Speaker 1: This is sort of should be the least controversial thing

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Speaker 1: because ultimately you have to sort of have a government

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Speaker 1: infrastructure if we're going to respond collectively to action that

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Speaker 1: we individually can't deal with, but collectively we can deal

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Speaker 1: with a heck of a lot better. So we got

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Speaker 1: to keep having this conversation. I don't want to hear,

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Speaker 1: oh it's too soon for politics. No, we've got because

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Speaker 1: we've got to be better prepared. This was a lack

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Speaker 1: of preparedness. Don't get distracted by the right now by

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Speaker 1: the politics and National Weather Service. And don't get me wrong,

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Speaker 1: those cuts are terrible, but that shouldn't be the focus.

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Speaker 1: The focus is the fact that we can't. You know,

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Speaker 1: you've got you've got such a misinformed public in parts

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Speaker 1: in some of these redder states that that they've there's

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Speaker 1: shocked when they when they find out these things happen.

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Speaker 1: And then there was some preventive medicine that politicians misled

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Speaker 1: them about and told them that it would somehow be

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Speaker 1: wasted money. I don't think it's wasted money. Now there's

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Speaker 1: always gonna it's it's going to cost more if we

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Speaker 1: don't deal with it up front, all right, But here's

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Speaker 1: hoping some miracles happen. Find some of those. And this

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Speaker 1: is it. My kids. My kids went away both, you know,

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Speaker 1: to camp for five or six years in a row,

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Speaker 1: and that that first time, that feeling as a parent

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Speaker 1: you have no control. You want to have so much

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Speaker 1: control of protecting your kids. And so I I ache

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Speaker 1: for those parents. Uh, and it's a it's an ache

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Speaker 1: that they'll never get over. All right. I want to

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Speaker 1: turn to the other big political development over the weekend.

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Speaker 1: It's Elon Musk's proclamation that he's going to launch a

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Speaker 1: third party, something he's calling the America Party. Well, right now,

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Speaker 1: there's no clear platform, no infrastructure, just a few wealthy

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Speaker 1: guys like Mark Cuban and Anthony Scaramucci both saying they're in, which,

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Speaker 1: if we're being honest, I might argue is kind of

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Speaker 1: a red flag. Oh maybe we'll call it an orange flat. Now,

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Speaker 1: let me be clear, I'm totally sympathetic to the idea.

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Speaker 1: I mean, help me in on the goal of breaking

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Speaker 1: up the two party stranglehold. I've been preaching this right,

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Speaker 1: I've set it over and over on this podcast. I've

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Speaker 1: said it in my writings on Substack. The biggest threat

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Speaker 1: to functional governance in this country isn't polarization alone. It

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Speaker 1: is the two parties no longer represent the full ideological

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Speaker 1: spectrum of the American electorate. We've got a broken binary

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Speaker 1: system trying to contain what is in practice a multi

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Speaker 1: party country, and the voters themselves know it. So I'm

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Speaker 1: not opposed to the mission. I'm just skeptical, deeply skeptical

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Speaker 1: of the messenger, because if Elon Musk were serious about

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Speaker 1: building a viable third party, there's already a blueprint for

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Speaker 1: his politics. In fact, there are multiple take the Libertarian Party,

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Speaker 1: which already has significant, though not automatic, ballot access infrastructure.

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Speaker 1: There's the Forward Party, which I discussed in depth on

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Speaker 1: this podcast with its CEO, Lindsay Drift. She laid out

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Speaker 1: just how difficult it is to build a credible political

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Speaker 1: alternative in this country because of the jewopoly of the

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Speaker 1: two major parties essentially controlling ballot access. So how much

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Speaker 1: of it hinges on the state by state organizing fundraising,

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Speaker 1: legal battles for balllet access, and candidate recruitment. None of

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Speaker 1: that is present here. Must doesn't seem interested in sharing

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Speaker 1: a movement. He only seems interested in owning one. And

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Speaker 1: it reminds me of his Twitter socket. The platform was

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Speaker 1: doing say, eighty to eighty five percent of what he wanted,

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Speaker 1: but because the platform wasn't doing one hundred percent of

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Speaker 1: what he wanted, he got angry and bought it out

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Speaker 1: of spite, right, And now he's applying the same logic

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Speaker 1: to politics. If he can't control the outcome, like with

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Speaker 1: MAGA and Donald Trump, he's going to try and create

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Speaker 1: his own arena. But that's not how a democracy works,

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Speaker 1: and that's not certainly how a sustainable democracy would work.

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Speaker 1: And let's not ignore them motivation. Musk has recently lost

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Speaker 1: ground with the Trump administration, lost his guy at NASA,

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Speaker 1: lost the EV tax credits. Uh, He's feuding with major advertiser.

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Speaker 1: He doesn't like the political responses he's been getting from

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Speaker 1: his AI company. So is this a political movement or

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Speaker 1: just the latest chapter in a billionaire's identity project. So

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Speaker 1: to be fair, a lot of political movements start out

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Speaker 1: as frustration or even vengeance. Right, Teddy Roosevelt was just

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Speaker 1: pissed off at Taft. Okay, you know, Ross Perot was

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Speaker 1: angry at Bush. Maga is essentially a product of Donald

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Speaker 1: Trump's grievance with being denied a seat at the GOP's

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Speaker 1: establishment table. Musk's move isn't all that different, except he's

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Speaker 1: not really building something new. He's just naming something right now.

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Speaker 1: And even then, it's not clear what the ideology is.

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Speaker 1: He says he's against the duopoly, great, but is he

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Speaker 1: for transparency, ranked choice voting, open primaries, ballot access reform,

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Speaker 1: coalition governance. A real third party effort needs to needs

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Speaker 1: to say what it's for, needs to be about some thing,

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Speaker 1: and it's what we talked about with Lindsay draft. If

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Speaker 1: you're not working to fix the electoral machinery, then you're

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Speaker 1: just a protest candidate with a checkbook. Now here's my

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Speaker 1: magic wand theory. If I could redesign the system from scratch,

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Speaker 1: we don't just need one new party. I think we

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Speaker 1: need two new parties, one that breaks off the Democrats

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Speaker 1: and one that breaks off the Republicans. Because today's two

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Speaker 1: major parties are united more by cultural war identity than

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Speaker 1: by any coherent policy ideologies. Just look at the left

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Speaker 1: right now, it's fractured most over the future of capitalism.

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Speaker 1: You've got traditional market based liberals who believe government should

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Speaker 1: be a partner with the private sector. But you've also

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Speaker 1: got a rising block of voters and politicians, particularly younger,

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Speaker 1: more diverse, more urban, who are increasingly open to rethinking

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Speaker 1: the idea of capitalism itself. Call it a tilt toward

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Speaker 1: democratic socialism or economic progressive populism. But it is a

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Speaker 1: real divide inside the left movement. Culturally, they're pretty aligned,

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Speaker 1: but it's on that actual economic policy that they're divided.

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Speaker 1: On the right, but there's also a pretty significant split,

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Speaker 1: they're culturally pretty united, but it's on these it's on

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Speaker 1: actual economic policy and informed policy that they're divided. The

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Speaker 1: split is less about you know, it's about their split

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Speaker 1: is a little bit more about America's role in the world.

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Speaker 1: There's still a traditional wing that believes in free markets,

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Speaker 1: free trade, small government, low taxes, international engagement, but they're

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Speaker 1: now intentioned with the rising isolationist wing, nationalists, protectionists, skeptical

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Speaker 1: of institutions foreign and domestic, and nativist. You know, you

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Speaker 1: have the center rights, pro immigration. The far right is

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Speaker 1: anti immigration, by the way, it's mostly due to economics.

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Speaker 1: So what we really need, and I've said this before,

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Speaker 1: are new checks from within each party's ideological family. The

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Speaker 1: Forward Party could become the center left capitalist voice that

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Speaker 1: believes in pluralism, data driven governance and a limited by

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Speaker 1: effective public sector, a check on the far less desire

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Speaker 1: to up end the system altogether. The libertarian Proper Party,

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Speaker 1: if properly empowered, could be the culturally AGNOI stick fiscally

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Speaker 1: responsible small government advocate that is skeptical, a skeptical counterweight

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Speaker 1: to the populist nationalism code for strong, forceful, you know,

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Speaker 1: top down government, which dominates today's Republican base. Together, those

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Speaker 1: forces could pull the center back into relevance in a

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Speaker 1: form that's not simply centrism first, but compromise first, and

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Speaker 1: then create governing coalitions that actually reflect how Americans think

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Speaker 1: and live, not just how the parties raise money. Because

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Speaker 1: the reason the no labels idea mixed right where they

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Speaker 1: got a handful of Democrats and Republicans who promised to

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Speaker 1: govern together and that they would hold. But what would happen? Right?

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Speaker 1: The party bosses would say we're going to freeze your

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Speaker 1: money for reelection, and what would happen? They come crawling

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Speaker 1: back and vote party lot. So you're not going to

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Speaker 1: get this from actual members of either major party. The

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Speaker 1: only way this happens is if those who care about

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Speaker 1: those things leave their respective major part parties and join

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Speaker 1: one of these fledgling third parties. Because you could you

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Speaker 1: create this group, because because Elon Musk is starting a

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Speaker 1: great conversation, and he's right, it doesn't take many. You

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Speaker 1: have ten to fifteen House members as members of these

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Speaker 1: third parties and four to six Senators as members of

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Speaker 1: these third parties, you become the majority maker. You don't

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Speaker 1: have to even have the second most amount of members

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Speaker 1: in the institution, as long as you have enough that

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Speaker 1: would decide who the majority is, and that would bring

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Speaker 1: about some coalition incrementalism that actually would move us forward

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Speaker 1: so that we wouldn't always take these giant steps backward

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Speaker 1: every time we fire one of the two major parties

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Speaker 1: from governance. So look, it's Musk's money can play a

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Speaker 1: role here. I'm skeptical of Musk himself. If he's serious

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Speaker 1: about this, he'll invest in one of these parties that

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Speaker 1: already exists. If this is nothing but an ego trip

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Speaker 1: of his own and his own weird jelly us. See,

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Speaker 1: if Trump's power, then he is going to sit here

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Speaker 1: and fund his own party and just kiss away his money.

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Speaker 1: But if that's what he's doing here, and if you're

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Speaker 1: remember the Ford Party a libertarian party, look I get it.

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Speaker 1: Go see what's up. Go see if he's actually serious

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Speaker 1: about this, But be careful being beholden to him, because

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Speaker 1: he may have a motivation that is simply all on

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Speaker 1: its own. And again, Twitter, the Twitter experience may be

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Speaker 1: a huge tell. So look, it's an interesting development. I'm

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Speaker 1: skeptical of him. I don't think he's patient enough to

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Speaker 1: do what it would take to build something that would

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Speaker 1: be durable. But guess what, there really is some energy

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Speaker 1: and interest out there. I think there's a new gallup

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Speaker 1: pole that had it over fifty five percent interest in

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Speaker 1: a third party. And trust me, every time we've asked

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Speaker 1: the question, voters always claim they're interested in it, and

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Speaker 1: then they don't vote it when it comes And it's

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Speaker 1: like the campaign finance reform issuey that that issue. Voters

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Speaker 1: say these are important issues, but they never vote on it.

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Speaker 1: Third parties voters say they would like more choices, and

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Speaker 1: yet they default to the red or the blue. But

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Speaker 1: a lot of this is infrastructure, and so you're gonna

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Speaker 1: need billionaires to help finance the lawsuits, because again, I

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Speaker 1: think the duopoly is a violation of the equal protection

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Speaker 1: clause in the Constitution, and i'd like to see these

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Speaker 1: minor parties band together and make that argument stronger than Again,

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Speaker 1: you have a very political Supreme Court who may just

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Speaker 1: look at things through the prism of the red and

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Speaker 1: the blue. All right, I have one more story I

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Speaker 1: want to get to before we get to this great

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Speaker 1: interview with the three directors of this miss magazine documentary. Look,

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Speaker 1: I didn't know what to expect when I watched it.

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Speaker 1: I really dug it. I learned a lot, and I

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Speaker 1: enjoyed my interview with these with these three directors, and

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Speaker 1: I think you will too, regardless of your politics. So

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Speaker 1: trust me on that. But I got one more story.

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Speaker 2: To get to.

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Speaker 1: This one. It's a story that is very small and

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Speaker 1: dollar them out, but it's huge in what it says

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Speaker 1: about the state of American governance, especially in today's Republican Party.

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Speaker 1: And I'm going to start with a quote from Donald

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Speaker 1: Trump over the weekend. He said the following he was

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Speaker 1: angry that, you know, this was a party line vote,

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Speaker 1: and ironically the opposition was bipartisan right there. There were

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Speaker 1: Republicans who voted against his bill in both there were

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Speaker 1: no Democrats have voted for So he's kind of angry

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Speaker 1: about that because there's bipartisan opposition to what he did,

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Speaker 1: but not bipartisan support for what he did. So he

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Speaker 1: rants about this, and he said they won't't vote only

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Speaker 1: because they hate Trump, he claimed, But I hate them too,

428
00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:39,639
Speaker 1: you know, I really do. I hate them. I cannot

429
00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:42,639
Speaker 1: stand them because I really believe they hate our country.

430
00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:45,480
Speaker 1: This is the current president of the United States that

431
00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:49,400
Speaker 1: said this. Here's the thing everybody's probably you're probably meeting this. Yeah,

432
00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:53,360
Speaker 1: there goes down there. That's Trump and Trump. Imagine any

433
00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:58,120
Speaker 1: other president saying this, okay, Barack Obama. Imagine him saying,

434
00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:04,159
Speaker 1: not a single Republican voted for Obamacare. I hate them,

435
00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:08,280
Speaker 1: they hate me. I hate them, I cannot stand them

436
00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:10,520
Speaker 1: because I really believe they hate our country because they

437
00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:13,680
Speaker 1: didn't vote for Obamacare. What do you think that conversation

438
00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:16,960
Speaker 1: would have been, Like, what kind of outrage with it?

439
00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:22,640
Speaker 1: Democrats would have criticized Obama for saying that I'm waiting

440
00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:26,200
Speaker 1: for some republic Maybe Lisa Rakowski will criticize Maybe Tom

441
00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:30,360
Speaker 1: Tillis will criticize Trump for saying this, but only when asked. Right,

442
00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:34,119
Speaker 1: we know there are plenty of Republicans embarrassed by Donald

443
00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:36,320
Speaker 1: Trump saying something like this. Here we are on the

444
00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:40,000
Speaker 1: most patriotic weekends and the President of the United States

445
00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:45,840
Speaker 1: says he hates half the country. It's dehumanizing, it's means spirited,

446
00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:48,920
Speaker 1: and I get it. We're supposed to dishrug this off

447
00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:52,120
Speaker 1: because this is Trump being Trump. The rules are different.

448
00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:56,159
Speaker 1: You know, he's somehow you know whatever. But come on,

449
00:24:57,160 --> 00:25:02,800
Speaker 1: come h this is you know, there's we never seem

450
00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:05,080
Speaker 1: to draw a line anymore, right, you know, as Bill

451
00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:08,160
Speaker 1: Hurt said the movie Broadcast News, you know, I don't

452
00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:10,320
Speaker 1: know about you know, I don't know how to cross

453
00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:12,359
Speaker 1: the line. They keep moving the soccer. I know I

454
00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:15,080
Speaker 1: just probably mangled the line. Those of you want to

455
00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:16,960
Speaker 1: complain to me about it, send me a DM, send

456
00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:20,200
Speaker 1: me a text. That's fine, But let's be honest. When

457
00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:23,000
Speaker 1: leaders speak like this, it opens the door to governing

458
00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:27,160
Speaker 1: through punishment, not principle, and you also set an example.

459
00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:31,880
Speaker 1: So that brings me to Florida Governor Ronda Santis, who

460
00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:36,600
Speaker 1: has desperately tried to govern like Trump and be maga

461
00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:40,560
Speaker 1: like Trump. He has tried so hard and he's never

462
00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:44,520
Speaker 1: been able to find the same sort of support, if

463
00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:46,880
Speaker 1: you will, that Trump has. You know, maybe he doesn't

464
00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:49,359
Speaker 1: have the charisma whatever. There's all sorts of theories of

465
00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:51,639
Speaker 1: the case. But let me tell you this story. Earlier

466
00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:54,239
Speaker 1: this month, Florida has a line at Embido. A lot

467
00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:55,879
Speaker 1: of governors have a line at em Veido. Florida is

468
00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:57,480
Speaker 1: one of those states that does. Earlier this month, the

469
00:25:57,520 --> 00:26:00,280
Speaker 1: Santis used his line at em veto to cut one

470
00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:03,159
Speaker 1: hundred and fifty thousand dollars in funding for a brand

471
00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:06,400
Speaker 1: new veterans treatment court in Santa Rosa County. Santa Rosa

472
00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:09,560
Speaker 1: County is right next door to Scambia County in northwest Florida.

473
00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:12,000
Speaker 1: I spent a lot of time here. I know Santa

474
00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:14,800
Speaker 1: Rose County well is actually probably arguably the most Republican

475
00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:20,520
Speaker 1: county in the state. For what it's worth, this program

476
00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:23,720
Speaker 1: is designed to help veterans who are struggling with issues

477
00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:29,119
Speaker 1: that happened during their service PTSD, addiction, homelessness. It's a

478
00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:32,280
Speaker 1: system that's designed to give these veterans an opportunity to

479
00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:35,200
Speaker 1: avoid jail time if they commit a crime, first time offender,

480
00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:39,199
Speaker 1: and instead get treatment, get counseling, get some structure, and

481
00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:44,480
Speaker 1: get on with better chance at life. It's based on

482
00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:47,560
Speaker 1: a national model. The very first Veterans Treatment Court opened

483
00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:50,560
Speaker 1: to Buffalo, New York in two thousand and eight. Now

484
00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:53,240
Speaker 1: they're over four hundred of them across the country. They're

485
00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:57,080
Speaker 1: evidence based, their bipartisan, and they're pretty cost effective. Santa Ros'

486
00:26:57,240 --> 00:27:00,760
Speaker 1: version launched in September of twenty twenty four. They've already

487
00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:03,119
Speaker 1: helped twenty five veterans get their lives back on track

488
00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:08,040
Speaker 1: in less than an year. So Rondo Santis is a veteran.

489
00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:12,879
Speaker 1: Right So you think, why would DeSantis target this wasteful spending, Well,

490
00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:15,399
Speaker 1: let me tell you about the state member of the

491
00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:22,480
Speaker 1: state legislature who sponsored this appropriation. His name's Alexandrotti. He's

492
00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:26,119
Speaker 1: a Republican state lawmaker from the area. He championed this program.

493
00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:28,600
Speaker 1: He helped secure the funding one hundred and fifty thousand dollars. Basically,

494
00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:33,000
Speaker 1: it pays for a staffer Okay, this is a nonprofit organization.

495
00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:36,159
Speaker 1: It's not a government agency. Nonprofit. They get a little bit.

496
00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:38,000
Speaker 1: They get grant money from the state and get stuff

497
00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:40,480
Speaker 1: from the VA. They get stuff from donations from the

498
00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:44,439
Speaker 1: general public. But recently Androtti has also made some political enemies,

499
00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:48,639
Speaker 1: including the governor. Why because Androtti started asking questions, he

500
00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:52,480
Speaker 1: led efforts to investigate how state taxpayer dollars money that

501
00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:59,240
Speaker 1: belonged to the state of Florida somehow got into the

502
00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:06,439
Speaker 1: piggybank of an organization that the first lady, Casey DeSantis started,

503
00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:09,800
Speaker 1: called Hope Florida, And it appeared that the money there's

504
00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:13,439
Speaker 1: some state tax payer money was that was granted to

505
00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:17,800
Speaker 1: Hope Florida was then laundered for a political campaign marijuana,

506
00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:21,639
Speaker 1: the marijuana initiative in twenty twenty Florida. Desantas was against it,

507
00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:24,479
Speaker 1: so he sort of basically used taxpayer money, used his

508
00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:29,840
Speaker 1: wife's that appears used his wife's organization to funnel this

509
00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:36,760
Speaker 1: money to help the campaign against legalizing recreational the recreational

510
00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:41,280
Speaker 1: sale of marijuana. So obviously Androttie, you know, I don't

511
00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:44,960
Speaker 1: know what his motivation was, but he started investigating. Since

512
00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:47,880
Speaker 1: it's stopped in the legislature. It's now I think it's

513
00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:51,920
Speaker 1: potential criminal investigation. We don't know if there's criminal conduct yet,

514
00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:54,600
Speaker 1: but there's a criminal investigation believed by the state attorney

515
00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:59,120
Speaker 1: in Tallahasset. Well, guess what, he's been angry, the governor.

516
00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:02,840
Speaker 1: So when the budget came across DeSantis's desk ANDROTI saw

517
00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:07,520
Speaker 1: several of his local projects, including the Veterans Court veto

518
00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:10,800
Speaker 1: without explanation. And here's the thing, this isn't the first

519
00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:12,959
Speaker 1: time DeSantis has used the line on in veto this

520
00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:17,440
Speaker 1: way during his fledgling campaign for president in twenty twenty three.

521
00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:19,280
Speaker 1: Memory he's running for president in twenty twenty four, but

522
00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:21,920
Speaker 1: is in twenty twenty three. That first budget in twenty

523
00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:25,520
Speaker 1: twenty three, he made a habit of reminding people that

524
00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:29,760
Speaker 1: hadn't contributed yet to his presidential campaign but had items

525
00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:33,120
Speaker 1: in the state budget that they cared about, that he

526
00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:36,440
Speaker 1: had a line on a veto and he was essentially

527
00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:39,720
Speaker 1: looking at his donor list to see who gave and

528
00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:42,600
Speaker 1: who didn't and lied on him. And essentially, if you

529
00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:47,920
Speaker 1: didn't give, your appropriation might get vetoed. That was the implication.

530
00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:50,560
Speaker 1: And there was a lot of people angry. Some reporting

531
00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:53,720
Speaker 1: was out there ANDBC News did this reporting that happened

532
00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:56,560
Speaker 1: where a lot of people felt extorted by the governor

533
00:29:56,600 --> 00:29:58,840
Speaker 1: at the time to get money, and again using his

534
00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:01,040
Speaker 1: line on m Veto. That way, by the way you're asking,

535
00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:04,360
Speaker 1: I think the line in VIDO, I understand why governors

536
00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:06,920
Speaker 1: think they like it, and in theory, an honest, ethical

537
00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:10,920
Speaker 1: governor who is not political. Of those, I don't know

538
00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:12,640
Speaker 1: if there's a single governor in the country that's not

539
00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:16,520
Speaker 1: political in some form or another. It's just it is

540
00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:19,400
Speaker 1: fraught with potential political corruption. I think the line in

541
00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:24,680
Speaker 1: n Veto is a more dangerous tool, especially with today's politics.

542
00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:28,960
Speaker 1: But that's just an aside. But he chose to feto

543
00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:33,440
Speaker 1: this thing. It's unbelievable. And here's what makes it worse.

544
00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:35,520
Speaker 1: Let's I pointed out the Santis is a veteran himself.

545
00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:39,120
Speaker 1: He knows exactly who this court serves. He knows that

546
00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:41,760
Speaker 1: many of these veterans already gave this country everything and

547
00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:43,960
Speaker 1: now they just need a little help rebuilding their personal lives.

548
00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:50,160
Speaker 1: And so he's vindictive against a member of the legislation

549
00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:54,160
Speaker 1: done and he's punishing people who voted for him. This

550
00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:56,680
Speaker 1: is a community that voted for him any huge numbers,

551
00:30:57,320 --> 00:31:00,120
Speaker 1: and he's punishing the voters of a state repe that

552
00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:03,760
Speaker 1: he is mad at. That's why this PTO feels so cynical.

553
00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:08,760
Speaker 1: Was the program mismanaged? There's no evidence of that. If

554
00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:10,480
Speaker 1: it was, then yeah, I cut the funding. Was this

555
00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:15,719
Speaker 1: taxpayer abuse? There appears to me? No, no, no evidence

556
00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:15,880
Speaker 1: of that.

557
00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:16,680
Speaker 3: Now.

558
00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:18,680
Speaker 1: Look, I spent a lot of time in Northwest Florida.

559
00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:21,040
Speaker 1: As I said, I own property there. I care about

560
00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:23,560
Speaker 1: the community. I give to the food bank. I've been

561
00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:26,240
Speaker 1: given to the food bank since COVID. I've been doing

562
00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:32,040
Speaker 1: that every quarter. The mana food bank that's locally here.

563
00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:34,440
Speaker 1: I do the same thing in Arlington, Virginia. I'm a believer.

564
00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:36,840
Speaker 1: I don't give to national cherries. I give to local

565
00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:40,600
Speaker 1: That's just my belief. I feel like that it's closer

566
00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:43,120
Speaker 1: to the ground, you sort of can vet it a

567
00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:48,160
Speaker 1: little bit better. And so I so, guess what, I'm

568
00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:50,880
Speaker 1: always looking for a logan. This one hits close to

569
00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:53,080
Speaker 1: home for me. So I've decided to donate one thousand

570
00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:56,080
Speaker 1: dollars to the nonprofit that supports the Santa Rosa Veteran's

571
00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:59,200
Speaker 1: Treatment Court. I've already done it. It's called Friends of

572
00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:03,760
Speaker 1: the Santa Rosa VTC Veterans Treatment Cord. So guess what

573
00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:06,160
Speaker 1: if one hundred and forty nine of you listening right

574
00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:10,479
Speaker 1: now had the capability of giving a thousand dollars to them?

575
00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:13,760
Speaker 1: Right now, they've already had a layoff that basically one

576
00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:15,760
Speaker 1: of their staffers, the person that runs this program, very

577
00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:18,920
Speaker 1: popular guy, may not be able to We'll see. I

578
00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:22,000
Speaker 1: have a feeling people are going to read this story

579
00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:25,800
Speaker 1: in the Pensacola News Journal feel sort of grossed out

580
00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:31,800
Speaker 1: that sort of petty politics is being used to harm veterans.

581
00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:38,160
Speaker 1: I mean, just it's appalling. So I gave so I

582
00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:39,920
Speaker 1: hope you take a look. You can donate right now.

583
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:45,200
Speaker 1: Go to their website Santa Rosa VTC dot com, s

584
00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:49,640
Speaker 1: A N T A r O s A VTC dot com.

585
00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:53,600
Speaker 1: Check it out. I hope you think about it. This

586
00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:56,760
Speaker 1: is an apolitical group. They shouldn't be caught up in

587
00:32:56,840 --> 00:33:00,720
Speaker 1: our polarization crisis in America, our binary absurded, the retribution

588
00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:05,880
Speaker 1: grievance politics of the right, whatever it is. But my god,

589
00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:08,320
Speaker 1: these veterans have been through enough. They don't deserve to

590
00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:10,560
Speaker 1: be political pawns and a feud between a lawmaker and

591
00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:13,160
Speaker 1: a governor with thin skin. What they deserve is what

592
00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:17,400
Speaker 1: this program was delivering, some accountability, some support, some structure,

593
00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:20,920
Speaker 1: and a second chance. If state leaders won't support it,

594
00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:23,960
Speaker 1: maybe all of us can do it ourselves. So I

595
00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:27,239
Speaker 1: hope you will take a look. All right, let's get

596
00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:30,440
Speaker 1: started with this conversation with the three directors of this

597
00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:35,920
Speaker 1: terrific new historical documentary about the history. Basically, it's the

598
00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:39,720
Speaker 1: history of his magazine and the importance of and frankly,

599
00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:42,840
Speaker 1: where the women's movement stands today. The beauty of this

600
00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:46,360
Speaker 1: documentary is that it really is a reminder, and this

601
00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:48,840
Speaker 1: is sort of why I wish we all could do this.

602
00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:51,520
Speaker 1: There's no doubt we've got a lot of problems in

603
00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:53,240
Speaker 1: this country, and there's a lot of things that we

604
00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:57,360
Speaker 1: could be better at. Guess what, we keep actually getting better.

605
00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:02,440
Speaker 1: Things were worse, and we are incrementally getting better. We

606
00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:04,480
Speaker 1: are better today than we were fifty years ago on

607
00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:08,479
Speaker 1: women's rights. That doesn't mean we're where we should be either,

608
00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:11,040
Speaker 1: on any of these issues that we debate all the time.

609
00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:14,719
Speaker 1: Take a listen and I'll see on the other side.

610
00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:30,000
Speaker 1: All right, I have the three directors of a fabulous

611
00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:34,680
Speaker 1: new documentary that's all about the history of Miss magazine

612
00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:39,360
Speaker 1: in the it's called Dear Mis a Revolution in print.

613
00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:42,719
Speaker 1: Three directors because it is a feature length and it

614
00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:48,080
Speaker 1: really is in many ways. Three distinct segments of this

615
00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:53,400
Speaker 1: documentary have good Selima Coroma, Alice Goo, and Cecilia Adorando.

616
00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:55,480
Speaker 1: Welcome to all of you, Thank you for doing this,

617
00:34:55,600 --> 00:34:56,560
Speaker 1: Welcome to the podcast.

618
00:34:56,960 --> 00:34:59,400
Speaker 2: Thank you, thanks for having me here, thanks for having us.

619
00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:03,600
Speaker 1: So before I get into each section here, I'd love

620
00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:06,120
Speaker 1: to get a little bit of the origin story. How

621
00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:10,759
Speaker 1: who had the idea, where did it come from? Who

622
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:13,960
Speaker 1: should who should take this first? Who can? Who wants

623
00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:17,279
Speaker 1: to take that question first? But how did how did

624
00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:18,520
Speaker 1: the project come together?

625
00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:21,560
Speaker 4: I'll do it. I feel like I've been the one

626
00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:22,480
Speaker 4: doing this answer.

627
00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:26,400
Speaker 5: So, so this is a project that you know, we

628
00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:29,480
Speaker 5: have to credit McGee Media, who's a production company run

629
00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:33,040
Speaker 5: by Dylan who's one of our executive producers. They really

630
00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:37,960
Speaker 5: took this HBO and were really just eager to tell

631
00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:40,440
Speaker 5: us the story of the history of MIZ. So we

632
00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:42,400
Speaker 5: were the three of us directors were all brought on

633
00:35:42,719 --> 00:35:46,680
Speaker 5: after HBO greenlit the film, but I think they always

634
00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:49,640
Speaker 5: wanted this kind of, uh, you know, I would say,

635
00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:51,920
Speaker 5: a kind of feminist approach to the film, and that

636
00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:54,479
Speaker 5: they wanted to bring in different perspectives from different women

637
00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:57,840
Speaker 5: to show kind of the diversity of viewpoints within the movement.

638
00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:01,840
Speaker 4: So yeah, we were all just you know, they just

639
00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:03,120
Speaker 4: picked on the phone and called this one day.

640
00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:06,080
Speaker 1: Tell me, yeah, go ahead to all that.

641
00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:08,640
Speaker 3: It was the fiftieth Animal. I mean we sort of

642
00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:10,839
Speaker 3: missed it by a couple but maybe a year or two.

643
00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:14,480
Speaker 3: But it was a fiftieth anniversary when MS first began,

644
00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:17,880
Speaker 3: which began in nineteen seventy two, and they sort of

645
00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:21,759
Speaker 3: started this project in twenty twenty two, So fifty year

646
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:23,239
Speaker 3: sort of anniversary.

647
00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:26,200
Speaker 1: Well that's why I look, it's I'm fifty. I was

648
00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:29,239
Speaker 1: born in nineteen seventy two. So when I was like,

649
00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:31,880
Speaker 1: fiftieth anniversary, I'm like, I wish I were still fifty.

650
00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:35,840
Speaker 1: So yeah, it is, it is, And I have to

651
00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:40,120
Speaker 1: say it. That's how I watched this, which is sometimes

652
00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:42,280
Speaker 1: and I want to get into this where you don't realize,

653
00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:45,200
Speaker 1: you know, what the era you live in in some

654
00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:49,799
Speaker 1: ways can be definitional into how you view culture, right,

655
00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:52,319
Speaker 1: how you view the sexes and all of those things,

656
00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:55,000
Speaker 1: and so I want to get into that. But that's interesting.

657
00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:57,280
Speaker 1: So you guys started this in twenty two, so three years.

658
00:36:57,440 --> 00:36:59,600
Speaker 1: That's a long time. What was the hardest part of

659
00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:00,440
Speaker 1: putting together?

660
00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:03,000
Speaker 4: Honestly for me?

661
00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:07,520
Speaker 3: You know, I have never made a film with other

662
00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:10,360
Speaker 3: directors before, right, so we all have different visions.

663
00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:13,000
Speaker 1: Everybody drives, I know, it's like being a co host

664
00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:15,680
Speaker 1: like on television shows. You're like, there still only has

665
00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:17,880
Speaker 1: to be one driver at a time, you know, no

666
00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:18,560
Speaker 1: matter what you do.

667
00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:21,680
Speaker 3: And so you know, the way that I would do

668
00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:23,960
Speaker 3: my film, I have a process, right, and it's sort

669
00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:28,000
Speaker 3: of like this. You know, I make an outline, I

670
00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:30,120
Speaker 3: do the research, I figure it out, and then I

671
00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:31,040
Speaker 3: sit and I do it.

672
00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:35,480
Speaker 4: And not everybody does it that way, and so you know, uh,

673
00:37:36,160 --> 00:37:36,840
Speaker 4: just you know, just.

674
00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:40,120
Speaker 3: Having different perspectives on how to make film and what

675
00:37:40,239 --> 00:37:41,840
Speaker 3: we wanted to talk about. How do you tell a

676
00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:46,719
Speaker 3: story about a magazine from beginning to end? Uh, with

677
00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:49,560
Speaker 3: three different people who have three different perspectives, right, So

678
00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:53,000
Speaker 3: each film was kind of like each part was a

679
00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:55,120
Speaker 3: different film, was a new kind of film with a

680
00:37:55,200 --> 00:38:00,640
Speaker 3: different visual story. So that was kind of challenging. But

681
00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:03,520
Speaker 3: you know, we sort of just had to do it.

682
00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:08,399
Speaker 1: Did you guys work together in that respect or did

683
00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:11,080
Speaker 1: you work separately for a while and then come together.

684
00:38:11,560 --> 00:38:14,120
Speaker 2: You know, this was so new for HBO. I think

685
00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:16,799
Speaker 2: it was like it was a big idea for them

686
00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:19,080
Speaker 2: and a big swing for them. I mean, work with

687
00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:22,640
Speaker 2: three directors. As you said, there can only be one

688
00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:24,879
Speaker 2: pilot at a time or one driver at a time.

689
00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:29,120
Speaker 2: And we're all very different filmmakers, but so we you know,

690
00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:31,960
Speaker 2: our first few meetings were like, all right, ladies, how

691
00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:32,440
Speaker 2: do we do this?

692
00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:36,480
Speaker 1: How did you divvy up? Interview? So you have Gloria

693
00:38:36,520 --> 00:38:37,520
Speaker 1: steinem right, It.

694
00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:41,040
Speaker 2: Was like, are we gonna how do we divvy up?

695
00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:43,800
Speaker 2: How do we not be repetitive and redundant? How do

696
00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:46,160
Speaker 2: we are we all going to kind of agree to

697
00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:48,320
Speaker 2: meld to one style? Are we going to agree to

698
00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:51,480
Speaker 2: meld to like we all have our favorite teams and whatnot.

699
00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:56,120
Speaker 2: And you know, we had very productive discussions going this way,

700
00:38:56,160 --> 00:39:01,400
Speaker 2: and ultimately HBO, to their credit, where like, you know what,

701
00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:03,960
Speaker 2: let's make this easy on ourselves. You guys are three

702
00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:07,120
Speaker 2: different filmmakers. Why don't we let you get you guys

703
00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:09,640
Speaker 2: each do your own thing, do your own.

704
00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:12,480
Speaker 1: Section why you each had resources separate and distinct.

705
00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:15,160
Speaker 4: Yep, yeah, we basically huge.

706
00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:17,279
Speaker 2: Wow, Yeah, it was huge.

707
00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:19,719
Speaker 1: Good And here I want to like crap on so

708
00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:22,600
Speaker 1: many big media companies these days for pulling resources, But

709
00:39:22,719 --> 00:39:25,640
Speaker 1: good for WBD, that's amazing.

710
00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:29,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I think that that one of the things.

711
00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:31,120
Speaker 5: So I think one of the things that made it

712
00:39:31,239 --> 00:39:33,880
Speaker 5: work was that HBO gave us all the same brief,

713
00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:36,920
Speaker 5: which was it was very clear that they wanted us

714
00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:42,560
Speaker 5: to identify iconic covers of the magazine and use those

715
00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:46,319
Speaker 5: as like portals into an examination magazine as a whole,

716
00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:48,520
Speaker 5: and the North Star was kind of like miss is

717
00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:52,240
Speaker 5: our central character the whole magazine. And so it's obviously

718
00:39:52,360 --> 00:39:54,279
Speaker 5: such a big beast to try and tell the story

719
00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:56,600
Speaker 5: about whole magazine. But I think the covers gave us

720
00:39:56,640 --> 00:40:00,480
Speaker 5: a really cool creative constraint to work within. So we

721
00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:03,040
Speaker 5: each basically got the same prompt and then we went

722
00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:05,560
Speaker 5: off and did a bunch of research on our own.

723
00:40:05,680 --> 00:40:07,960
Speaker 5: And what was cool about it was that HBO allowed

724
00:40:08,040 --> 00:40:11,000
Speaker 5: us to follow our curiosities, Like each one of us

725
00:40:11,040 --> 00:40:15,040
Speaker 5: were really passionate about certain issues and certain you know

726
00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:19,600
Speaker 5: ways that mis was was addressing those issues. And so yeah,

727
00:40:19,719 --> 00:40:21,880
Speaker 5: it was it was a certain amount of like negotiation

728
00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:23,759
Speaker 5: between us to make sure as else saying that we

729
00:40:23,840 --> 00:40:26,960
Speaker 5: weren't you repeating ourselves, but we also got a lot

730
00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:27,720
Speaker 5: of creative freedom.

731
00:40:28,080 --> 00:40:29,680
Speaker 1: Well, I was just going to say, so, how did

732
00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:32,520
Speaker 1: you decide who did who did? What? You know, Selima,

733
00:40:32,560 --> 00:40:34,960
Speaker 1: you sort of dove in on both the origin story

734
00:40:35,600 --> 00:40:40,880
Speaker 1: and the uncomfortable reality of race. In the origin story

735
00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:46,680
Speaker 1: of mis Alice, you tackled, uh, sort of violence against

736
00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:49,239
Speaker 1: women and sort of harassment in the workplace and how

737
00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:53,360
Speaker 1: that and to say, you dealt with erotica and pornography

738
00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:56,200
Speaker 1: for the most part, So I throw those How did

739
00:40:56,239 --> 00:40:58,279
Speaker 1: you know those were the focuses you're going to be

740
00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:00,839
Speaker 1: your focuses? Did you guys discuss that? It just sort

741
00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:02,880
Speaker 1: of organically this is where I want to go.

742
00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:05,520
Speaker 5: Well, we did have a conversation about who's going to

743
00:41:05,560 --> 00:41:09,319
Speaker 5: do which part, and like Salima was was the one

744
00:41:09,360 --> 00:41:11,719
Speaker 5: that was really keen to do the preview issue, the

745
00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:15,560
Speaker 5: first issue of miss I mean that was a really important,

746
00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:19,080
Speaker 5: you know and crucial thing that like you couldn't start

747
00:41:19,120 --> 00:41:22,320
Speaker 5: the film without starting there, and so you know, we

748
00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:23,560
Speaker 5: talked about it between this We're.

749
00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:25,239
Speaker 4: Basically like how do you feel? And Alice was like,

750
00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:27,359
Speaker 4: I really want to do part two, and I said, great,

751
00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:28,759
Speaker 4: I want to do part three, and so we just

752
00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:30,520
Speaker 4: kind of divvied it up that way.

753
00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:33,520
Speaker 1: And then if you already knew sort of the various

754
00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:35,640
Speaker 1: sort of focal points issue wise that you were going.

755
00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:38,879
Speaker 2: To talk on part but honestly, I think one, oh sorry,

756
00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:40,680
Speaker 2: I was going to say. One parameter was that we

757
00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:44,920
Speaker 2: had to be chronological in ears. So if if Selima's

758
00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:49,120
Speaker 2: last cover was nineteen seventy five, I couldn't start mine

759
00:41:49,120 --> 00:41:51,440
Speaker 2: at nineteen seventy three. So there's that was kind of

760
00:41:51,480 --> 00:41:52,640
Speaker 2: a basic guardrail for us.

761
00:41:52,640 --> 00:41:55,759
Speaker 5: It was like loosely linear, but you know, I would

762
00:41:55,760 --> 00:41:58,160
Speaker 5: say in my case, like you know, ours are are

763
00:41:58,280 --> 00:42:00,800
Speaker 5: structured quite differently, like mine is a a case study

764
00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:04,080
Speaker 5: about one particular issue and then how the magazine covered

765
00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:08,360
Speaker 5: that that topic over the years, which is pornography. But

766
00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:10,759
Speaker 5: that you know, for me, it was because I read

767
00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:12,680
Speaker 5: a book about the history of MISS and I read

768
00:42:12,719 --> 00:42:16,719
Speaker 5: an account of the infighting it MISS on porn this

769
00:42:16,880 --> 00:42:21,279
Speaker 5: issue in particular, I was exactly and there were people

770
00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:23,760
Speaker 5: saying this was the hardest issue for us to tackle

771
00:42:23,760 --> 00:42:25,680
Speaker 5: as a magazine and I said, oh, that's really interesting.

772
00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:28,920
Speaker 5: And so you know, again, to HBO's credit, we all

773
00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:31,719
Speaker 5: kind of went back and then pitched them like our approaches,

774
00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:33,840
Speaker 5: like I want to do these these covers, what do

775
00:42:33,920 --> 00:42:34,239
Speaker 5: you think?

776
00:42:34,680 --> 00:42:36,400
Speaker 4: And then it was a negotiation process.

777
00:42:37,160 --> 00:42:39,080
Speaker 1: Who's this great person at HBO to work with?

778
00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:44,680
Speaker 4: It makes this career. I want to make something clear.

779
00:42:44,719 --> 00:42:48,800
Speaker 5: We're talking about HBO Documentaries, which is a very specific entity.

780
00:42:49,560 --> 00:42:52,279
Speaker 5: It's a sub entity of and I will say every

781
00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:56,279
Speaker 5: executive in that sub entity really cares about filmmakers and

782
00:42:56,480 --> 00:42:58,120
Speaker 5: artists and women.

783
00:42:58,560 --> 00:42:59,399
Speaker 4: It's a team of women.

784
00:42:59,480 --> 00:43:03,120
Speaker 5: They're all amazing, they're all brilliant, and they're really unique

785
00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:06,719
Speaker 5: in the landscape for under this present moment of consolidation

786
00:43:06,960 --> 00:43:11,160
Speaker 5: and you know, media corporate kind of uh consolidation there.

787
00:43:11,480 --> 00:43:15,520
Speaker 5: They have a long history of supporting filmmakers and trusting filmmakers.

788
00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:18,120
Speaker 4: So HBO Docs, that's the answer it.

789
00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:21,239
Speaker 1: So I wanted to say I.

790
00:43:21,719 --> 00:43:24,360
Speaker 3: Was going between part one and part two, I was

791
00:43:24,440 --> 00:43:30,200
Speaker 3: really interested in men because in my life I was

792
00:43:30,280 --> 00:43:33,040
Speaker 3: finding at that time that a lot of my good

793
00:43:33,239 --> 00:43:35,879
Speaker 3: male friends that I've known since I was like a kid,

794
00:43:36,600 --> 00:43:39,400
Speaker 3: were sort of becoming radicalized by some of the stuff

795
00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:42,439
Speaker 3: that was happening online, from the you know, the Kevin

796
00:43:42,480 --> 00:43:46,080
Speaker 3: Samuels to the Andrew Tates to everything, and I was

797
00:43:46,200 --> 00:43:49,920
Speaker 3: really interested in maybe doing that part. And then I

798
00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:52,440
Speaker 3: was like, you know what, I actually do want to

799
00:43:52,640 --> 00:43:55,360
Speaker 3: talk about black women. I want to talk about the

800
00:43:55,480 --> 00:43:58,640
Speaker 3: intersectionality of how do you have a movement of feminism?

801
00:43:58,680 --> 00:44:01,320
Speaker 3: Where do black women fit in that movement? So like

802
00:44:01,680 --> 00:44:04,960
Speaker 3: going between those, I sort of had to choose, and

803
00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:07,200
Speaker 3: I chose that one. But I you know, I love

804
00:44:07,239 --> 00:44:09,799
Speaker 3: what Alice did with you know, part two in the Men.

805
00:44:11,600 --> 00:44:13,560
Speaker 3: It was great for me to watch and see how

806
00:44:13,640 --> 00:44:14,080
Speaker 3: she did that.

807
00:44:14,640 --> 00:44:14,759
Speaker 2: Right.

808
00:44:15,640 --> 00:44:17,880
Speaker 1: Well, so let me let's start with how you tackled it.

809
00:44:17,920 --> 00:44:20,239
Speaker 1: Look nineteen seventy two sort of in many ways a

810
00:44:20,640 --> 00:44:23,040
Speaker 1: iconic here, the launch of it for the women's movement,

811
00:44:23,120 --> 00:44:26,160
Speaker 1: the launch of this magazine. Shirley chishom runs for president,

812
00:44:26,600 --> 00:44:29,759
Speaker 1: And so I thought you captured that really well by saying,

813
00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:33,440
Speaker 1: you know, on one hand, here's miss magazine that kind

814
00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:35,960
Speaker 1: of had a blind spot on race, that kind of

815
00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:38,319
Speaker 1: did have a blind spot on race, as you point out,

816
00:44:38,520 --> 00:44:42,279
Speaker 1: and literally in the same year is Shirley Chisholm, who

817
00:44:42,360 --> 00:44:46,280
Speaker 1: is becoming who would the first of many to bridge

818
00:44:46,360 --> 00:44:49,959
Speaker 1: this sort of create a coalition of both black women

819
00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:51,839
Speaker 1: and white ones.

820
00:44:51,920 --> 00:44:56,480
Speaker 3: Yes, So okay, So I start off the film in

821
00:44:56,520 --> 00:45:00,279
Speaker 3: part one with the preview issue, which is like, you know,

822
00:45:00,440 --> 00:45:03,680
Speaker 3: this is around a time when you know, women women's

823
00:45:03,760 --> 00:45:08,520
Speaker 3: magazines were like beauty magazines, Good Housekeeping ladies.

824
00:45:08,320 --> 00:45:08,880
Speaker 1: Red Book?

825
00:45:09,320 --> 00:45:11,160
Speaker 4: Well, what's red Book?

826
00:45:11,719 --> 00:45:15,359
Speaker 1: You don't remember red Book? I remember I had an

827
00:45:15,360 --> 00:45:17,200
Speaker 1: old aunt that read, you look at red Book? What

828
00:45:17,360 --> 00:45:17,520
Speaker 1: is this?

829
00:45:17,719 --> 00:45:17,920
Speaker 2: It was?

830
00:45:18,120 --> 00:45:19,960
Speaker 1: I think more ads than stuff, but.

831
00:45:20,080 --> 00:45:24,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, totally, totally, very much advertisements for beauty and how

832
00:45:24,280 --> 00:45:26,160
Speaker 3: to make recipes, and how to take.

833
00:45:26,040 --> 00:45:28,279
Speaker 4: Care of your children, and how to look good for

834
00:45:28,360 --> 00:45:29,279
Speaker 4: your man. Right.

835
00:45:30,280 --> 00:45:33,840
Speaker 3: And so the first issue of miss was you know,

836
00:45:34,239 --> 00:45:37,839
Speaker 3: we're talking about articles like desecting the English language, right,

837
00:45:38,280 --> 00:45:42,799
Speaker 3: black feminist thought, how to write a marriage contract? Right?

838
00:45:42,880 --> 00:45:44,399
Speaker 3: These are not things that you were going to see

839
00:45:44,440 --> 00:45:47,680
Speaker 3: in Good Housekeeping or Better Homes and Gardens.

840
00:45:47,920 --> 00:45:52,000
Speaker 4: So, you know, I loved exploring that first one.

841
00:45:52,960 --> 00:45:55,600
Speaker 3: The part is called a magazine for All Women, So

842
00:45:55,840 --> 00:45:58,920
Speaker 3: this is the aspiration is to be a magazine for

843
00:45:59,000 --> 00:45:59,399
Speaker 3: all women.

844
00:45:59,480 --> 00:46:04,399
Speaker 4: But what do you do when you know black women

845
00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:06,320
Speaker 4: don't have the same issues that white women have?

846
00:46:06,960 --> 00:46:09,960
Speaker 3: So of One of the articles in the first issue

847
00:46:10,239 --> 00:46:13,640
Speaker 3: was the Housewives Moment of Truth, where it's like, you know,

848
00:46:13,920 --> 00:46:16,080
Speaker 3: housewives are like, I want to work, you know, I

849
00:46:16,120 --> 00:46:17,800
Speaker 3: don't want to be in the house, or you know,

850
00:46:18,040 --> 00:46:20,560
Speaker 3: whatever it is, and a lot of black women were like,

851
00:46:20,840 --> 00:46:23,719
Speaker 3: we've always been working, We've always been out of the house.

852
00:46:23,800 --> 00:46:27,320
Speaker 3: We wish we had the choice to be right, to

853
00:46:27,360 --> 00:46:30,600
Speaker 3: pay at home, right, and so like, I just loved

854
00:46:31,280 --> 00:46:34,319
Speaker 3: exploring that, hearing from the women who were actually there

855
00:46:34,480 --> 00:46:37,680
Speaker 3: who wrote for it. Yeah, Shirley Chisholm was on the

856
00:46:37,800 --> 00:46:40,759
Speaker 3: cover of the magazine, but there was also a white

857
00:46:40,760 --> 00:46:44,320
Speaker 3: woman who was there with or Sissy Farenthold. It was

858
00:46:44,440 --> 00:46:46,440
Speaker 3: hard to have a black woman on the cover of

859
00:46:46,520 --> 00:46:49,520
Speaker 3: any magazine because they wouldn't sell it in the South,

860
00:46:50,560 --> 00:46:54,000
Speaker 3: and so there's sort of like that, there's this tension

861
00:46:54,080 --> 00:46:56,640
Speaker 3: between this is a business, we need to make money,

862
00:46:56,920 --> 00:46:58,160
Speaker 3: but how do we make money if we put a

863
00:46:58,200 --> 00:46:59,080
Speaker 3: black woman on the cover?

864
00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:01,680
Speaker 4: Right? So those are some of the issues that we

865
00:47:01,760 --> 00:47:02,680
Speaker 4: tackle in part one.

866
00:47:02,840 --> 00:47:05,040
Speaker 1: Boy, I would I'll be honest with the with the

867
00:47:05,239 --> 00:47:07,920
Speaker 1: business side of things and how you'd have advertisers not

868
00:47:08,040 --> 00:47:10,839
Speaker 1: wanting to so here you had this you're actually getting

869
00:47:10,840 --> 00:47:13,880
Speaker 1: at an issue that's still out there in independent media today,

870
00:47:13,960 --> 00:47:17,160
Speaker 1: which is, hey, this has got a lot of eyeballs,

871
00:47:17,320 --> 00:47:20,400
Speaker 1: but it's a controversial topic. Care to advertise and the

872
00:47:20,440 --> 00:47:23,520
Speaker 1: answers nope. Yeah, And you see that a lot in

873
00:47:23,760 --> 00:47:25,880
Speaker 1: part too. And I know, Alice, you can talk about

874
00:47:25,880 --> 00:47:28,879
Speaker 1: that a little bit, but you see that that's something

875
00:47:28,960 --> 00:47:31,759
Speaker 1: that the magazine had to deal with for its entire

876
00:47:31,880 --> 00:47:33,520
Speaker 1: run and still I mean, I don't know about now

877
00:47:33,800 --> 00:47:35,719
Speaker 1: it's still running, but it's something that they had to

878
00:47:35,760 --> 00:47:38,719
Speaker 1: deal with the entire time, to the point where a

879
00:47:38,800 --> 00:47:41,800
Speaker 1: lot of black women who wrote for the magazine they

880
00:47:41,960 --> 00:47:44,080
Speaker 1: kind of like quit, you know, at a certain point

881
00:47:44,120 --> 00:47:46,480
Speaker 1: they're saying, we see ourselves in the magazine, we don't

882
00:47:46,520 --> 00:47:47,560
Speaker 1: see ourselves on the cover.

883
00:47:47,880 --> 00:47:48,720
Speaker 4: And that's a problem.

884
00:47:50,040 --> 00:47:53,040
Speaker 1: A Let's talk about the business challenges there, because I

885
00:47:53,200 --> 00:47:55,719
Speaker 1: felt like they were these are not these are still

886
00:47:55,800 --> 00:48:00,440
Speaker 1: unresolved issues where you do have I mean, in some ways,

887
00:48:00,480 --> 00:48:04,520
Speaker 1: the influencer economy has put advertisers even more in the

888
00:48:04,600 --> 00:48:07,160
Speaker 1: driver's seat. And it was just sort of to watch

889
00:48:07,239 --> 00:48:12,040
Speaker 1: sort of the different things that advertisers forced magazine publishers

890
00:48:12,120 --> 00:48:16,080
Speaker 1: to do that you showcased and I'm sitting there going boy,

891
00:48:16,200 --> 00:48:19,040
Speaker 1: nothing has changed. If anything, we've actually gone backwards.

892
00:48:19,560 --> 00:48:21,640
Speaker 2: Right. We have to go for our listeners, you know,

893
00:48:21,760 --> 00:48:24,000
Speaker 2: we have to go in a little time travel machine

894
00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:28,680
Speaker 2: and go back in time. Now. I think it's totally normal, right.

895
00:48:28,760 --> 00:48:31,680
Speaker 2: There's many different outlets that will write, whether for women

896
00:48:31,840 --> 00:48:35,080
Speaker 2: or whatever, special interests, that will write about things that

897
00:48:35,200 --> 00:48:38,400
Speaker 2: can be controversial. But yeah, but good luck getting advertisers.

898
00:48:38,600 --> 00:48:40,640
Speaker 2: But good luck getting advertisers, right. And then in the

899
00:48:40,719 --> 00:48:45,600
Speaker 2: seventies you mentioned Red Book Good Housekeeping. You know, they

900
00:48:45,719 --> 00:48:49,520
Speaker 2: talked about making I think what lasagna like, fifty different ways,

901
00:48:50,160 --> 00:48:53,359
Speaker 2: and how to make your home nice, et cetera. They

902
00:48:53,400 --> 00:48:57,360
Speaker 2: didn't talk about in my section we talk about They

903
00:48:57,440 --> 00:48:59,880
Speaker 2: wrote about the dangers of hair dye and the chemical

904
00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:01,440
Speaker 2: they were putting in a hair dye like that was

905
00:49:01,520 --> 00:49:05,080
Speaker 2: completely unheard of back in the day to put into print,

906
00:49:05,880 --> 00:49:09,000
Speaker 2: and they lost an entire year's worth of advertising dollars

907
00:49:09,040 --> 00:49:13,960
Speaker 2: from claral. So balancing issues and trying to be a

908
00:49:14,040 --> 00:49:17,319
Speaker 2: magazine that was pushing boundaries and talking about things more

909
00:49:17,400 --> 00:49:24,360
Speaker 2: than just homemaking, they risked alienating very very crucial advertising

910
00:49:24,440 --> 00:49:26,920
Speaker 2: dollars that they needed to run as a business. Because

911
00:49:27,360 --> 00:49:30,800
Speaker 2: this is the balance right, It's like, well, if we

912
00:49:30,920 --> 00:49:34,480
Speaker 2: completely collapse as a magazine, will have no issues to

913
00:49:34,520 --> 00:49:35,160
Speaker 2: write about it all.

914
00:49:35,480 --> 00:49:37,319
Speaker 1: So what was there any thought? Was there any thought

915
00:49:37,360 --> 00:49:39,360
Speaker 1: about going nonprofit? Was there a fear that they were

916
00:49:39,400 --> 00:49:41,400
Speaker 1: going to have to go nonprofit rather than trying to

917
00:49:41,760 --> 00:49:44,960
Speaker 1: find a way to have of essentially a for profit enterprise.

918
00:49:45,120 --> 00:49:49,000
Speaker 2: I think there were a lot of these discussions. A

919
00:49:49,080 --> 00:49:52,239
Speaker 2: lot of these discussions were made at the time, but

920
00:49:52,360 --> 00:49:54,240
Speaker 2: I think this is, you know, especially in the beginning,

921
00:49:55,200 --> 00:49:57,879
Speaker 2: in these early years, this was really the only pop

922
00:49:57,960 --> 00:50:00,560
Speaker 2: forward for them for a magazine that was seen Dustin

923
00:50:00,680 --> 00:50:04,600
Speaker 2: to fail and Dustin to not see beyond its first issue.

924
00:50:05,360 --> 00:50:08,560
Speaker 1: By the way, Harry Reasoner, between that and what I

925
00:50:08,719 --> 00:50:11,560
Speaker 1: learned about him with Barbara Walters in the most recent

926
00:50:11,640 --> 00:50:13,600
Speaker 1: doc I don't know how many of you have followed

927
00:50:13,640 --> 00:50:14,280
Speaker 1: that story.

928
00:50:15,640 --> 00:50:16,440
Speaker 4: Can you talk about it?

929
00:50:17,239 --> 00:50:18,200
Speaker 2: I don't it.

930
00:50:19,719 --> 00:50:22,319
Speaker 1: Let's just say, as bad as you guys presented him

931
00:50:22,480 --> 00:50:25,560
Speaker 1: with what he said on the record, just imagine what

932
00:50:25,680 --> 00:50:28,239
Speaker 1: he was saying behind the scenes to his co worker

933
00:50:28,320 --> 00:50:30,200
Speaker 1: Barbara Walters. So we'll just leap it at that. I mean,

934
00:50:30,239 --> 00:50:32,399
Speaker 1: I just I want to I want to talk about

935
00:50:32,400 --> 00:50:35,640
Speaker 1: your documentary here, but to clarify.

936
00:50:35,760 --> 00:50:40,120
Speaker 3: Harry Reasoner says, when the first issue comes out, he says, oh,

937
00:50:40,239 --> 00:50:44,359
Speaker 3: you know, this is as a male chauvinist magazine who

938
00:50:44,560 --> 00:50:48,200
Speaker 3: wants to you know, hear about you know, bras and

939
00:50:48,360 --> 00:50:49,120
Speaker 3: you know all these things.

940
00:50:49,400 --> 00:50:53,040
Speaker 4: It's probably not going to last for issues.

941
00:50:53,480 --> 00:50:56,400
Speaker 3: And then after the preview issue sells out, he comes

942
00:50:56,480 --> 00:50:58,000
Speaker 3: back and sort of, you know, with egg on his

943
00:50:58,080 --> 00:51:01,319
Speaker 3: face and he says, hey, I apologize. They're doing they're

944
00:51:01,400 --> 00:51:05,080
Speaker 3: making a new establishment, they're doing something that is important.

945
00:51:05,200 --> 00:51:07,320
Speaker 4: In congratulations, such a great moment.

946
00:51:07,800 --> 00:51:10,960
Speaker 1: I will say that the fact that he actually apologized

947
00:51:11,120 --> 00:51:14,759
Speaker 1: is but for what it's worth, it turns out to

948
00:51:14,800 --> 00:51:18,759
Speaker 1: be more reflective of something else as you've learned there.

949
00:51:19,560 --> 00:51:21,759
Speaker 1: But that was quite striking, Alice. I want to go

950
00:51:21,840 --> 00:51:26,279
Speaker 1: back to sort of how you I've I took your

951
00:51:26,360 --> 00:51:32,320
Speaker 1: part as being about sort of surfacing the objectification of

952
00:51:32,400 --> 00:51:35,000
Speaker 1: women and violence against women. How would you describe your

953
00:51:35,040 --> 00:51:38,000
Speaker 1: part two or the reaction of men to the initial

954
00:51:38,080 --> 00:51:41,440
Speaker 1: launch of miz How did you how did you How

955
00:51:41,480 --> 00:51:44,320
Speaker 1: are you trying to frame it? Am I misinterpreting it? No?

956
00:51:44,760 --> 00:51:47,360
Speaker 2: I don't think you're misinterpreting it at all. You know,

957
00:51:47,480 --> 00:51:51,200
Speaker 2: opening with the special issue on men. As Alema said,

958
00:51:51,200 --> 00:51:54,040
Speaker 2: it's very it's a very juicy topic to jump into.

959
00:51:54,920 --> 00:51:58,000
Speaker 2: And for the women of MIZ or the readership of mis,

960
00:51:58,560 --> 00:52:00,239
Speaker 2: they're like, why are we going to talk about men?

961
00:52:00,560 --> 00:52:01,560
Speaker 2: You know, I thought this was going to be a

962
00:52:01,600 --> 00:52:04,960
Speaker 2: magazine about women, But we live with men, like it

963
00:52:05,080 --> 00:52:07,920
Speaker 2: or not. They're fifty percent of our planet. Their fathers,

964
00:52:07,960 --> 00:52:10,480
Speaker 2: our brothers, our husbands, sons, nephews, et cetera.

965
00:52:10,680 --> 00:52:12,720
Speaker 1: But we're shrinking. We're going to forty seven percent.

966
00:52:15,080 --> 00:52:17,400
Speaker 2: It's a little less than fifty to fifty now. But

967
00:52:19,600 --> 00:52:21,600
Speaker 2: and I wanted to talk about what was going on

968
00:52:21,840 --> 00:52:23,000
Speaker 2: at the time. You know, you were saying you were

969
00:52:23,000 --> 00:52:24,640
Speaker 2: born in nineteen seventy two, and so much of you,

970
00:52:24,680 --> 00:52:26,640
Speaker 2: as you know, so much of us, we're all influenced

971
00:52:26,680 --> 00:52:29,800
Speaker 2: by like the time that we're born and raised. And

972
00:52:30,920 --> 00:52:34,239
Speaker 2: in making this film, in the beginning, I say, you know,

973
00:52:34,280 --> 00:52:36,120
Speaker 2: what what was going on in culture at the time,

974
00:52:36,200 --> 00:52:37,759
Speaker 2: you know, I was thinking about me growing up. I

975
00:52:37,880 --> 00:52:40,400
Speaker 2: was like, is there stuff from like I Dream of

976
00:52:40,480 --> 00:52:43,480
Speaker 2: Jeanie or Bewitch, like what was going on? Because TV

977
00:52:43,640 --> 00:52:46,200
Speaker 2: reflects the attitudes and men at the time. Whatever's going on?

978
00:52:46,920 --> 00:52:50,640
Speaker 2: And we found all of these clips and you know though,

979
00:52:50,680 --> 00:52:52,520
Speaker 2: I kind of like theague. You know, I vaguely remember

980
00:52:52,600 --> 00:52:55,359
Speaker 2: these shows from when I was really little. Seeing them again,

981
00:52:55,400 --> 00:52:57,480
Speaker 2: I got my mouth was like my jaw was on

982
00:52:57,560 --> 00:52:57,920
Speaker 2: the floor.

983
00:52:58,120 --> 00:53:00,560
Speaker 1: Oh I've looked. I can't watch Animal House anymore, and

984
00:53:00,680 --> 00:53:03,080
Speaker 1: I will be I will confess Animal House. When I

985
00:53:03,200 --> 00:53:05,440
Speaker 1: was a teenager in early college, like that was a

986
00:53:05,480 --> 00:53:10,279
Speaker 1: staple of every every group of dudes gets together, they're

987
00:53:10,280 --> 00:53:12,200
Speaker 1: going to start quoting Animal House to each other of

988
00:53:12,280 --> 00:53:15,080
Speaker 1: a certain age. And it is a movie you look

989
00:53:15,160 --> 00:53:17,200
Speaker 1: back on and you're like, I can't. I got a

990
00:53:17,239 --> 00:53:21,200
Speaker 1: grown daughter. I it is this like, oh my god.

991
00:53:21,360 --> 00:53:24,480
Speaker 1: And it is a reminder of how much culture does

992
00:53:25,600 --> 00:53:30,160
Speaker 1: just sort of seeps in and does create these suddenly

993
00:53:30,320 --> 00:53:34,440
Speaker 1: societal ills that I don't think we're intentional everybody, so oh,

994
00:53:34,480 --> 00:53:36,560
Speaker 1: I'm just trying to get a laugh. And then all

995
00:53:36,560 --> 00:53:40,359
Speaker 1: of a sudden, yeah, look at this, Look at how

996
00:53:40,480 --> 00:53:43,760
Speaker 1: much how much further we have to go for a quality?

997
00:53:45,040 --> 00:53:45,960
Speaker 1: You know, it's wild.

998
00:53:46,160 --> 00:53:51,600
Speaker 2: I remember it doesn't happen any more, but I remember

999
00:53:51,680 --> 00:53:54,360
Speaker 2: walking to school with my friends. I mean, this is crazy.

1000
00:53:54,600 --> 00:53:57,040
Speaker 2: Like I was like twelve with my girlfriends. We went

1001
00:53:57,320 --> 00:53:59,879
Speaker 2: about a mile walk to school with my neighbors would

1002
00:53:59,880 --> 00:54:04,720
Speaker 2: go the amount of like wolf whistles and cat calls

1003
00:54:04,719 --> 00:54:08,440
Speaker 2: we would get like it was completely normal.

1004
00:54:08,840 --> 00:54:11,160
Speaker 1: And I'm guessing this is like the nineties. This is

1005
00:54:11,239 --> 00:54:12,440
Speaker 1: not like the seventies.

1006
00:54:13,040 --> 00:54:15,799
Speaker 2: This is not the seventies. This was the eighties. Yeah,

1007
00:54:17,200 --> 00:54:20,120
Speaker 2: And I'm just thinking now, like god, eight we were

1008
00:54:20,239 --> 00:54:23,520
Speaker 2: like twelve years old, so that's crazy. But we also

1009
00:54:23,680 --> 00:54:26,040
Speaker 2: accepted it, like we're like, here we go pass these

1010
00:54:26,080 --> 00:54:28,120
Speaker 2: guys again. There every single day they're going to cat

1011
00:54:28,200 --> 00:54:32,279
Speaker 2: call us. And we just accepted it because, you know,

1012
00:54:32,400 --> 00:54:35,200
Speaker 2: as Gloria Steinham says at the end of my part

1013
00:54:35,239 --> 00:54:38,160
Speaker 2: in nineteen eighty two, it's like back then it was

1014
00:54:38,239 --> 00:54:40,600
Speaker 2: just called life, you know, and we just accepted it

1015
00:54:40,719 --> 00:54:44,239
Speaker 2: as life. And to think of it now, I'm like, god,

1016
00:54:44,320 --> 00:54:47,520
Speaker 2: I mean, it's like walking past the construction side or

1017
00:54:47,560 --> 00:54:50,440
Speaker 2: we know whatever and hearing like it's just thank god

1018
00:54:50,520 --> 00:54:51,040
Speaker 2: it doesn't happen.

1019
00:54:51,040 --> 00:54:52,560
Speaker 1: Well, this is why you got to tell these stories.

1020
00:54:52,600 --> 00:54:56,160
Speaker 1: I don't think people understand the recent history, Like it's

1021
00:54:56,200 --> 00:54:59,160
Speaker 1: like we all expected all of this to be h

1022
00:55:00,080 --> 00:55:02,719
Speaker 1: lopsided one hundred years ago. But what if I told

1023
00:55:02,760 --> 00:55:05,919
Speaker 1: you this is the way life was from my mom

1024
00:55:06,360 --> 00:55:09,000
Speaker 1: I was raised. I was raised it at two parents.

1025
00:55:09,239 --> 00:55:12,120
Speaker 1: Both my parents worked. My mom worked the whole time,

1026
00:55:12,680 --> 00:55:17,000
Speaker 1: and she always felt you know, the story she now

1027
00:55:17,160 --> 00:55:19,160
Speaker 1: tells where she feels like she can tell the stories

1028
00:55:19,239 --> 00:55:20,680
Speaker 1: that she couldn't tell back then.

1029
00:55:21,600 --> 00:55:23,800
Speaker 2: Well, Chuck, look you were saying, you're the father of

1030
00:55:24,640 --> 00:55:27,319
Speaker 2: daughter or daughters. I have one daughter, one son.

1031
00:55:27,480 --> 00:55:27,680
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1032
00:55:29,560 --> 00:55:32,399
Speaker 2: Yeah. When doing my section two back in the day,

1033
00:55:32,800 --> 00:55:34,320
Speaker 2: so this is in the seventies of it. If a

1034
00:55:34,400 --> 00:55:37,800
Speaker 2: doctor was going to ask the father if he'd like

1035
00:55:37,840 --> 00:55:42,160
Speaker 2: to be in the delivery room during during birth, it

1036
00:55:42,200 --> 00:55:44,520
Speaker 2: would be so offensive, like that father might cunch the doctor.

1037
00:55:45,360 --> 00:55:48,920
Speaker 2: And now, as you know, every guy know wants to

1038
00:55:48,960 --> 00:55:50,920
Speaker 2: be involved in the birth, wants to completely be involved

1039
00:55:50,920 --> 00:55:53,040
Speaker 2: in their in their kids' lives. If it's a daughter.

1040
00:55:53,120 --> 00:55:55,319
Speaker 2: I have so many friends who are girl dads who

1041
00:55:55,320 --> 00:56:00,759
Speaker 2: are championing their daughter's success. So not that long ago,

1042
00:56:02,600 --> 00:56:02,880
Speaker 2: it was.

1043
00:56:03,000 --> 00:56:07,560
Speaker 1: So wildly different, right, and it's just right, that's the whole.

1044
00:56:07,680 --> 00:56:09,400
Speaker 1: This is what was So I think prowful about the

1045
00:56:09,480 --> 00:56:13,439
Speaker 1: doc Cecilia, let's go to your part, because in many

1046
00:56:13,480 --> 00:56:16,319
Speaker 1: ways this is still an unresolved debate. I would argue,

1047
00:56:17,280 --> 00:56:23,040
Speaker 1: when it comes to sexuality, feminism, and then there's pornography,

1048
00:56:23,120 --> 00:56:26,560
Speaker 1: which feels like every time we seem to come to

1049
00:56:26,680 --> 00:56:29,560
Speaker 1: a societal agreement and where it should be or not be,

1050
00:56:30,680 --> 00:56:34,279
Speaker 1: you know, some new technology comes along to supercharged pornography

1051
00:56:34,360 --> 00:56:37,439
Speaker 1: into the mainstream again, and that's, you know, arguably what's

1052
00:56:37,480 --> 00:56:38,840
Speaker 1: happened with technology.

1053
00:56:39,160 --> 00:56:40,560
Speaker 4: M yea one percent.

1054
00:56:40,880 --> 00:56:43,279
Speaker 5: I mean, I think this film and every you know,

1055
00:56:44,120 --> 00:56:46,759
Speaker 5: I just keep hearing that cliche about you know, if

1056
00:56:46,800 --> 00:56:48,680
Speaker 5: we don't study history, we're doomed to repeat it.

1057
00:56:48,840 --> 00:56:51,960
Speaker 4: And you know, I think so many of the issues

1058
00:56:52,000 --> 00:56:52,759
Speaker 4: that we touch on.

1059
00:56:53,000 --> 00:56:56,640
Speaker 5: Our you know, the pendulum swings, and I think that

1060
00:56:56,719 --> 00:56:59,439
Speaker 5: we're living in a moment where the things that we've

1061
00:57:00,080 --> 00:57:03,440
Speaker 5: thought for that we thought that we were taking for granted,

1062
00:57:04,080 --> 00:57:06,320
Speaker 5: like that I grew up just assuming we're going to

1063
00:57:06,360 --> 00:57:11,440
Speaker 5: stay that way. We are all, I think is witnessing

1064
00:57:11,600 --> 00:57:14,960
Speaker 5: this pendulum swinging back against women and.

1065
00:57:14,960 --> 00:57:17,400
Speaker 1: Against its Like we're in a reactionary moment, right, the

1066
00:57:17,440 --> 00:57:19,040
Speaker 1: Trump very reactionary.

1067
00:57:19,200 --> 00:57:21,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, And I think if you study history, you see

1068
00:57:22,040 --> 00:57:25,040
Speaker 4: cycles of this, right. So, like in my section which

1069
00:57:25,080 --> 00:57:27,920
Speaker 4: is all about porn, one of the things that we

1070
00:57:28,080 --> 00:57:31,360
Speaker 4: talked that that gets addressed is the rise of the

1071
00:57:31,480 --> 00:57:33,760
Speaker 4: right in the eighties, and and the way that you know,

1072
00:57:34,040 --> 00:57:37,360
Speaker 4: the backlash against the feminist movement was aligned with the

1073
00:57:37,440 --> 00:57:40,720
Speaker 4: evangelical movement, and you know, the rise of Reagan.

1074
00:57:42,280 --> 00:57:44,680
Speaker 5: We can literally, I literally was just reading an article

1075
00:57:44,760 --> 00:57:47,720
Speaker 5: today about Christian nationalism and the rise, you know, the

1076
00:57:47,840 --> 00:57:50,560
Speaker 5: return of Trump. Like we you know, I think that

1077
00:57:50,640 --> 00:57:53,880
Speaker 5: there have been people on the right who have been

1078
00:57:54,720 --> 00:57:58,040
Speaker 5: horrified of the you know, the the depravity and the

1079
00:57:58,120 --> 00:58:02,000
Speaker 5: immorality of women el oring their sexuality, like they've been

1080
00:58:02,040 --> 00:58:05,120
Speaker 5: wanting to get us back into and you know, people

1081
00:58:05,240 --> 00:58:07,520
Speaker 5: joke about the Handmaid's Tale and these kinds of pop

1082
00:58:07,560 --> 00:58:09,960
Speaker 5: cultural references of a dystopia. But like, we're not that

1083
00:58:10,120 --> 00:58:13,640
Speaker 5: far off, honestly in my opinion, and so and I

1084
00:58:13,680 --> 00:58:16,920
Speaker 5: don't think we've fully solved the problem of sexuality, and

1085
00:58:17,080 --> 00:58:21,680
Speaker 5: like teaching women to be truly themselves sexually, first of all,

1086
00:58:21,800 --> 00:58:23,480
Speaker 5: Like that's that's one thing I would say. I think,

1087
00:58:23,920 --> 00:58:27,520
Speaker 5: I think it's it's constant work, right, every generation needs

1088
00:58:27,560 --> 00:58:30,800
Speaker 5: to learn how to understand themselves sexually and what.

1089
00:58:31,000 --> 00:58:33,240
Speaker 1: But at least women are having these conversations. Men don't

1090
00:58:33,240 --> 00:58:36,920
Speaker 1: even have this conversation. There is no it's sort of like, no,

1091
00:58:37,160 --> 00:58:40,080
Speaker 1: you just do don't talk about it well, and this

1092
00:58:40,280 --> 00:58:40,800
Speaker 1: is this is.

1093
00:58:40,840 --> 00:58:41,360
Speaker 4: Where we are.

1094
00:58:41,480 --> 00:58:44,080
Speaker 5: It's taboo, right, So I think one thing you can

1095
00:58:44,160 --> 00:58:46,600
Speaker 5: say is you can say there's a phrase called sex

1096
00:58:46,720 --> 00:58:49,960
Speaker 5: positivity that's kind of in the culture now. People will

1097
00:58:50,080 --> 00:58:53,800
Speaker 5: talk about, you know, consent and asking your partner for

1098
00:58:53,880 --> 00:58:57,360
Speaker 5: what you want and having a dialogue before you do

1099
00:58:57,520 --> 00:58:59,520
Speaker 5: the deed. You know, all that there is I think

1100
00:58:59,600 --> 00:59:03,280
Speaker 5: more of a healthy conversation about uh that empowers women

1101
00:59:03,360 --> 00:59:05,320
Speaker 5: to embrace or sexuality. And I do think that a

1102
00:59:05,400 --> 00:59:08,840
Speaker 5: lot of men are trying to think about the relationship

1103
00:59:08,880 --> 00:59:11,200
Speaker 5: between sexuality and violence and like where do I want

1104
00:59:11,240 --> 00:59:14,280
Speaker 5: to fit in all that? So, but I think that

1105
00:59:14,400 --> 00:59:16,959
Speaker 5: at the same time, like we haven't we haven't gotten

1106
00:59:17,040 --> 00:59:21,000
Speaker 5: beyond the We still live in essentially a Christian society

1107
00:59:21,080 --> 00:59:23,640
Speaker 5: that where there's a lot of prudery and a lot

1108
00:59:23,720 --> 00:59:26,560
Speaker 5: of people that are there's just a lot of taboo.

1109
00:59:26,680 --> 00:59:28,080
Speaker 4: So it's like, you keep but.

1110
00:59:28,480 --> 00:59:30,600
Speaker 1: Isn't it a weird isn't it a weird place we're in?

1111
00:59:30,880 --> 00:59:33,440
Speaker 1: There's all this taboo sort of in one hand. On

1112
00:59:33,520 --> 00:59:37,640
Speaker 1: the other hand, there's access to all this all this

1113
00:59:38,480 --> 00:59:41,120
Speaker 1: also right there, so you know, and the rise of

1114
00:59:41,200 --> 00:59:44,280
Speaker 1: only fans and the rise of personal empowerment, right, Like,

1115
00:59:45,000 --> 00:59:47,280
Speaker 1: what how does that fit into this marriative?

1116
00:59:47,520 --> 00:59:50,080
Speaker 5: I think relates to the debate that I was trying

1117
00:59:50,120 --> 00:59:53,040
Speaker 5: to bring up in Part three, which is that essentially

1118
00:59:53,200 --> 00:59:55,280
Speaker 5: what happened within the feminist movement was that you had

1119
00:59:55,320 --> 00:59:58,520
Speaker 5: these two factions that that sort of became very very

1120
00:59:58,680 --> 01:00:01,400
Speaker 5: oppositional towards one another. They call it the porn Wars,

1121
01:00:01,560 --> 01:00:05,480
Speaker 5: like literally, and you had women who were very concerned

1122
01:00:05,480 --> 01:00:07,840
Speaker 5: about violence against women. It's sort of an extension of

1123
01:00:07,880 --> 01:00:09,800
Speaker 5: a lot of the stuff that Alice's section is highlighting

1124
01:00:09,840 --> 01:00:13,320
Speaker 5: around battered wives and you know, marital rape and things

1125
01:00:13,400 --> 01:00:16,680
Speaker 5: like that. Coming out of that, there became this kind

1126
01:00:16,680 --> 01:00:19,920
Speaker 5: of feminist orthodoxy that was anti porn. It's like, if

1127
01:00:19,960 --> 01:00:21,920
Speaker 5: you're anti violence, you have to be anti porn. And

1128
01:00:22,440 --> 01:00:25,120
Speaker 5: a lot of the leaders of that flank were saying

1129
01:00:25,520 --> 01:00:26,560
Speaker 5: porn is propaganda.

1130
01:00:27,520 --> 01:00:27,640
Speaker 1: You know.

1131
01:00:27,800 --> 01:00:31,520
Speaker 5: Robin Morgan, who was very key at MISS, you know,

1132
01:00:31,920 --> 01:00:34,480
Speaker 5: coined a phrase, you know, porn is the theory and

1133
01:00:34,600 --> 01:00:37,840
Speaker 5: rape is the practice. So there was this attempt to

1134
01:00:37,960 --> 01:00:42,400
Speaker 5: kind of draw a distinct like linkage between violence and porn.

1135
01:00:42,840 --> 01:00:45,920
Speaker 5: On the other side, you had a growing opposition to

1136
01:00:46,000 --> 01:00:49,680
Speaker 5: this position, particularly because the anti porn women were trying

1137
01:00:49,720 --> 01:00:52,600
Speaker 5: to ban porn outright, and so then you suddenly have

1138
01:00:52,800 --> 01:00:55,360
Speaker 5: these women who are saying, wait a second, wait a second,

1139
01:00:55,840 --> 01:00:57,520
Speaker 5: we don't know if bands are the way we should

1140
01:00:57,560 --> 01:01:00,560
Speaker 5: be going with this. We are concerned about violence and

1141
01:01:00,680 --> 01:01:03,160
Speaker 5: violent imagery and the way that that, you know, seeps

1142
01:01:03,160 --> 01:01:06,680
Speaker 5: into our culture. But it's a very dangerous thing to

1143
01:01:06,760 --> 01:01:10,120
Speaker 5: start to go down the path of censorship. And a

1144
01:01:10,160 --> 01:01:13,200
Speaker 5: lot of what these women they were not necessarily pro porn,

1145
01:01:13,360 --> 01:01:16,800
Speaker 5: They were anti censorship, They were pro freedom of speech,

1146
01:01:17,360 --> 01:01:19,640
Speaker 5: and part of it was that they wanted to protect

1147
01:01:19,760 --> 01:01:24,160
Speaker 5: publications like Miz. They were like, if you start empowering

1148
01:01:24,760 --> 01:01:28,000
Speaker 5: the right to ban porn, because there was this kind

1149
01:01:28,000 --> 01:01:31,960
Speaker 5: of strange alignment between anti porn feminists and right wing

1150
01:01:32,120 --> 01:01:38,080
Speaker 5: anti porn, anti smut people, if you go down this road,

1151
01:01:38,800 --> 01:01:43,520
Speaker 5: feminist publications that are celebrating female sexuality could be deemed dangerous,

1152
01:01:44,040 --> 01:01:46,840
Speaker 5: you know, and hartful, and they could be censored. And

1153
01:01:47,040 --> 01:01:50,280
Speaker 5: so anyway, you have this kind of you know, intense

1154
01:01:50,360 --> 01:01:53,800
Speaker 5: debate happening. But one major thing that they really didn't

1155
01:01:54,600 --> 01:01:57,360
Speaker 5: didn't know how to address was the question of can

1156
01:01:57,440 --> 01:02:00,840
Speaker 5: porn itself become feminist and if we're not going to

1157
01:02:00,880 --> 01:02:01,800
Speaker 5: be able to ban it or.

1158
01:02:01,800 --> 01:02:02,320
Speaker 4: Get rid of it.

1159
01:02:02,480 --> 01:02:05,000
Speaker 5: You know, it's like whack a mole, Like people, porn

1160
01:02:05,040 --> 01:02:08,520
Speaker 5: has been around since the invitation invention of the camera, literally,

1161
01:02:08,560 --> 01:02:10,800
Speaker 5: like so of the first movies are born.

1162
01:02:11,400 --> 01:02:13,560
Speaker 1: No, the joke is, anytime there's a new technology, how

1163
01:02:13,600 --> 01:02:14,840
Speaker 1: do you make money off of it? Find out what

1164
01:02:14,880 --> 01:02:15,840
Speaker 1: the pornographers are doing?

1165
01:02:15,960 --> 01:02:20,600
Speaker 5: And then so it's not just maybe a bad strategy,

1166
01:02:20,680 --> 01:02:22,600
Speaker 5: but it's also impractical, like you're not going to be

1167
01:02:22,600 --> 01:02:24,480
Speaker 5: able to get rid of it. And then what happens

1168
01:02:25,120 --> 01:02:30,360
Speaker 5: is that the anti porn sentiment just drives further repression.

1169
01:02:30,560 --> 01:02:32,760
Speaker 5: And frankly, there are a lot of people who feel

1170
01:02:32,840 --> 01:02:36,160
Speaker 5: that that puts people in danger. If you want women

1171
01:02:36,240 --> 01:02:39,680
Speaker 5: to feel to be safe, and you are, but you're

1172
01:02:39,800 --> 01:02:42,919
Speaker 5: you're contributing to the taboo and the shame of participating

1173
01:02:42,960 --> 01:02:43,600
Speaker 5: in sex work.

1174
01:02:44,040 --> 01:02:47,160
Speaker 4: You're only making those women more vulnerable. So there is

1175
01:02:47,240 --> 01:02:50,439
Speaker 4: like a distinct I think a line in the debate

1176
01:02:50,520 --> 01:02:53,200
Speaker 4: that can be taken into the present moment with OnlyFans

1177
01:02:53,240 --> 01:02:54,040
Speaker 4: and with all this stuff.

1178
01:02:54,800 --> 01:02:56,720
Speaker 5: And I don't think we've solved the problem. And I

1179
01:02:56,800 --> 01:02:58,840
Speaker 5: do think that a lot of porn is terrible. It's

1180
01:02:59,640 --> 01:03:03,680
Speaker 5: it's terrifying to think, Oh, these women are traffic. Oh

1181
01:03:03,840 --> 01:03:06,240
Speaker 5: these practices are you know, being taught to young.

1182
01:03:06,120 --> 01:03:08,600
Speaker 1: Boys, like you know, I'm going to get Ai to

1183
01:03:08,640 --> 01:03:11,080
Speaker 1: do all sorts of things that aren't human art. Yeah,

1184
01:03:11,320 --> 01:03:13,640
Speaker 1: but it doesn't matter. It's going to create an image.

1185
01:03:13,760 --> 01:03:14,240
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah.

1186
01:03:14,240 --> 01:03:16,960
Speaker 5: And we're here and we are reading articles about you know, younger,

1187
01:03:17,280 --> 01:03:20,720
Speaker 5: younger girls being pressured to do horrible, violent.

1188
01:03:20,520 --> 01:03:22,760
Speaker 4: Things that that that boys learned on porn.

1189
01:03:22,840 --> 01:03:26,040
Speaker 5: So but it's like, if porn is sex ed, then

1190
01:03:26,120 --> 01:03:29,800
Speaker 5: why can't we make better porn so that people learn

1191
01:03:30,160 --> 01:03:32,480
Speaker 5: how to be ethical, how to be how to how

1192
01:03:32,520 --> 01:03:35,640
Speaker 5: to respect consent, how to how to communicate that that

1193
01:03:35,800 --> 01:03:36,400
Speaker 5: porn exists.

1194
01:03:36,440 --> 01:03:38,280
Speaker 4: But it's totally underground.

1195
01:03:49,200 --> 01:03:50,920
Speaker 1: Selema, I want to sort of shift gears here a

1196
01:03:50,960 --> 01:03:53,440
Speaker 1: little bit, And I'm curious if you can do this,

1197
01:03:53,600 --> 01:03:55,520
Speaker 1: And I don't know if it's even possible, right because

1198
01:03:55,600 --> 01:03:56,920
Speaker 1: you know, we live in the era we live in.

1199
01:03:58,240 --> 01:04:01,760
Speaker 1: But if you had been asked to do this documentary

1200
01:04:02,240 --> 01:04:05,520
Speaker 1: in twenty fourteen, before the Trump before the Trump era,

1201
01:04:05,760 --> 01:04:09,760
Speaker 1: essentially before that, before Donald Trump came and just changed everything,

1202
01:04:09,840 --> 01:04:12,000
Speaker 1: whether we want to admit it or not, I've come

1203
01:04:12,080 --> 01:04:14,360
Speaker 1: to the conclusion, he's changed us culturally in a way

1204
01:04:14,440 --> 01:04:18,320
Speaker 1: no president has arguably since FDR. It is what it is.

1205
01:04:20,320 --> 01:04:23,160
Speaker 1: And I often look, I look at some of our

1206
01:04:23,240 --> 01:04:25,440
Speaker 1: societal ills, and I would have said in twenty fourteen,

1207
01:04:25,520 --> 01:04:27,640
Speaker 1: we had been making progress here, here, here, and here,

1208
01:04:28,600 --> 01:04:30,560
Speaker 1: and now I look back and go, boy, was I naive?

1209
01:04:31,600 --> 01:04:35,200
Speaker 1: I was now by twenty fourteen? So was naive? How

1210
01:04:35,280 --> 01:04:37,480
Speaker 1: much do you feel like you know, whether it was

1211
01:04:37,560 --> 01:04:39,560
Speaker 1: subconscious or not, Like you know, what would have been

1212
01:04:39,640 --> 01:04:41,960
Speaker 1: different if we weren't living this Trump era, and how

1213
01:04:42,040 --> 01:04:46,600
Speaker 1: you would have framed this the start of miss magazine.

1214
01:04:47,120 --> 01:04:50,840
Speaker 3: I think something that's so interesting about having made this

1215
01:04:51,240 --> 01:04:53,439
Speaker 3: is one being able to talk to people who were

1216
01:04:54,040 --> 01:04:56,920
Speaker 3: there right and the seventies who were starting it, and

1217
01:04:57,040 --> 01:04:59,439
Speaker 3: seeing how much of stuff is still the same.

1218
01:05:00,520 --> 01:05:01,240
Speaker 4: How much of.

1219
01:05:02,840 --> 01:05:05,240
Speaker 3: The same issues that I deal with in my life

1220
01:05:05,400 --> 01:05:08,240
Speaker 3: as a black woman, as a woman, as a young

1221
01:05:08,320 --> 01:05:11,400
Speaker 3: person are the same things, the same sort of things

1222
01:05:11,400 --> 01:05:14,200
Speaker 3: I kept hearing. Something I think is so interesting. I

1223
01:05:14,240 --> 01:05:20,160
Speaker 3: think in this last election, I don't you know, this

1224
01:05:20,360 --> 01:05:23,000
Speaker 3: last election, I think ninety two percent of women of

1225
01:05:23,120 --> 01:05:25,280
Speaker 3: black women voted Kamala Harris, and I think it was

1226
01:05:25,360 --> 01:05:28,320
Speaker 3: like fifty three percent of white women voted Trump. Right,

1227
01:05:29,440 --> 01:05:31,439
Speaker 3: the more things change, the more things stay the same.

1228
01:05:32,280 --> 01:05:36,800
Speaker 3: There is a gap there that was always there, and

1229
01:05:36,920 --> 01:05:40,840
Speaker 3: so I am thinking about twenty fourteen, I think it's

1230
01:05:41,000 --> 01:05:43,680
Speaker 3: I think I still would have told this story the

1231
01:05:43,800 --> 01:05:48,000
Speaker 3: same way because it's the same thing that has been

1232
01:05:48,080 --> 01:05:51,160
Speaker 3: happening since nineteen seventy and.

1233
01:05:51,480 --> 01:05:53,560
Speaker 1: Trump just sort of rip the veneer off of or

1234
01:05:53,840 --> 01:05:55,919
Speaker 1: or sort of lift the rock. It was all there.

1235
01:05:56,320 --> 01:05:58,840
Speaker 1: We were just making ourselves feel I mean, I always

1236
01:05:58,840 --> 01:06:01,560
Speaker 1: look at my you know, gen X and my own

1237
01:06:01,640 --> 01:06:03,560
Speaker 1: you know, it's like we were supposed to be the

1238
01:06:03,640 --> 01:06:07,080
Speaker 1: first generation that was raised equally. Okay, I always say this,

1239
01:06:07,800 --> 01:06:10,640
Speaker 1: and yet that isn't the outcome. Okay, men got better

1240
01:06:10,720 --> 01:06:14,320
Speaker 1: jobs than women. All of those things were true, but

1241
01:06:14,480 --> 01:06:16,880
Speaker 1: it was we were the first generation that at least

1242
01:06:16,920 --> 01:06:20,840
Speaker 1: the attempt was made right. And arguably millennials have taken

1243
01:06:20,880 --> 01:06:23,240
Speaker 1: it a step further, and hopefully gen Z is even

1244
01:06:23,680 --> 01:06:27,120
Speaker 1: further than that. But I now, you know, I realize

1245
01:06:27,160 --> 01:06:29,360
Speaker 1: what I thought, you know, when we were the strides

1246
01:06:29,400 --> 01:06:31,000
Speaker 1: we were making, when when I was in my thirties

1247
01:06:31,040 --> 01:06:34,160
Speaker 1: and forties, you know, hey, it was there was there

1248
01:06:34,240 --> 01:06:36,480
Speaker 1: was still a harder ceiling there for women than I

1249
01:06:36,640 --> 01:06:37,920
Speaker 1: fully appreciate it at the time.

1250
01:06:38,080 --> 01:06:42,480
Speaker 3: I mean there there definitely was a feeling of there

1251
01:06:42,560 --> 01:06:46,760
Speaker 3: definitely was this feeling of I think, you know, gay

1252
01:06:46,840 --> 01:06:47,680
Speaker 3: marriage was legalized.

1253
01:06:47,720 --> 01:06:49,720
Speaker 4: What year was that? Was it twenty fourteen, twenty fifty

1254
01:06:49,800 --> 01:06:50,600
Speaker 4: or ten were ten.

1255
01:06:50,560 --> 01:06:52,920
Speaker 1: Year anniversari was it the ten year anniversary?

1256
01:06:53,280 --> 01:06:54,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, about twenty fifteen, twenty fifteen.

1257
01:06:55,160 --> 01:06:58,920
Speaker 3: There was just this feeling of you know, post racial,

1258
01:06:59,160 --> 01:07:02,880
Speaker 3: post you know, queer rights, you know, post this, and

1259
01:07:03,000 --> 01:07:05,280
Speaker 3: then you know, like you said, the Veneer came off

1260
01:07:05,320 --> 01:07:06,960
Speaker 3: and it's like, no, we're not as far as we

1261
01:07:07,040 --> 01:07:07,640
Speaker 3: thought we were.

1262
01:07:08,040 --> 01:07:09,200
Speaker 4: I think about this a lot.

1263
01:07:11,320 --> 01:07:13,680
Speaker 3: I think about it a lot in doing this film

1264
01:07:13,720 --> 01:07:16,640
Speaker 3: and watching people have this looking at the archival and

1265
01:07:16,720 --> 01:07:20,160
Speaker 3: seeing people having the same conversations. At Miss magazine, one

1266
01:07:20,200 --> 01:07:24,880
Speaker 3: of the sort of lines in the office was there

1267
01:07:24,920 --> 01:07:27,360
Speaker 3: were a lot of feminists who were did not want

1268
01:07:27,400 --> 01:07:29,480
Speaker 3: to talk about queer stuff. There were a lot of

1269
01:07:29,520 --> 01:07:32,320
Speaker 3: feminists in there who were saying, if I am here,

1270
01:07:32,720 --> 01:07:34,280
Speaker 3: if I'm going to work here, I don't want to

1271
01:07:34,320 --> 01:07:35,600
Speaker 3: talk about that gay stuff.

1272
01:07:35,920 --> 01:07:37,880
Speaker 4: I don't want to talk about race.

1273
01:07:38,040 --> 01:07:39,760
Speaker 1: But that happened during the gay rights movement. You'd have

1274
01:07:39,920 --> 01:07:41,880
Speaker 1: people fighting for gay rights and said let's not do

1275
01:07:41,960 --> 01:07:44,640
Speaker 1: marriage yet. Yeah, there would be others. There was a

1276
01:07:44,800 --> 01:07:48,400
Speaker 1: huge divide in the human rights campaign world between no, no, no, no,

1277
01:07:48,640 --> 01:07:50,320
Speaker 1: let's not do marriage because we're going to keep losing

1278
01:07:50,320 --> 01:07:52,760
Speaker 1: that fight, let's not do it right. And I think

1279
01:07:52,880 --> 01:07:56,200
Speaker 1: every movement fighting for rights you come across that, we're like,

1280
01:07:57,160 --> 01:08:01,200
Speaker 1: it's basically incrementalism versus going for going for it all

1281
01:08:01,360 --> 01:08:02,000
Speaker 1: right totally.

1282
01:08:02,200 --> 01:08:05,320
Speaker 3: And that was the conversation is let's not do gay

1283
01:08:05,400 --> 01:08:09,040
Speaker 3: rights yet, Let's do women's rights right, Let's not do

1284
01:08:09,240 --> 01:08:12,480
Speaker 3: black women's rights right now, Let's do women's rights right.

1285
01:08:12,920 --> 01:08:17,280
Speaker 3: So that is, you know, something that I see that

1286
01:08:17,640 --> 01:08:22,240
Speaker 3: is repeated and something that I hear a lot. So yes,

1287
01:08:22,320 --> 01:08:26,000
Speaker 3: I do think that the veneer was taken off. But

1288
01:08:26,200 --> 01:08:28,880
Speaker 3: it's it's it's the same, Alice.

1289
01:08:28,920 --> 01:08:30,880
Speaker 1: I'd love the same question to you. I mean, you

1290
01:08:30,920 --> 01:08:35,639
Speaker 1: know the how do you think you might have framed

1291
01:08:35,680 --> 01:08:38,800
Speaker 1: this if the Trump era never had happened? Would you

1292
01:08:38,840 --> 01:08:40,080
Speaker 1: have framed your section differently?

1293
01:08:41,840 --> 01:08:42,120
Speaker 2: Question?

1294
01:08:43,040 --> 01:08:43,439
Speaker 4: I don't.

1295
01:08:44,800 --> 01:08:46,720
Speaker 2: If the Trump era had never you know, I think

1296
01:08:46,760 --> 01:08:49,519
Speaker 2: I would have done it. I think I would have

1297
01:08:49,600 --> 01:08:50,280
Speaker 2: done it the same.

1298
01:08:51,840 --> 01:08:53,800
Speaker 1: You know what, I know it's an impossible quote. I

1299
01:08:53,840 --> 01:08:55,720
Speaker 1: sit there and I'm asking it a possible But I

1300
01:08:55,840 --> 01:08:59,040
Speaker 1: do look at the Trump era as a step backwards culturally, right,

1301
01:08:59,160 --> 01:09:02,000
Speaker 1: like this step backward we feel, but maybe it never

1302
01:09:02,120 --> 01:09:04,000
Speaker 1: was a step backwards. This is where we always were,

1303
01:09:04,120 --> 01:09:05,599
Speaker 1: and he just revealed the truth.

1304
01:09:06,320 --> 01:09:10,040
Speaker 2: You know, I think so many things happened, I would

1305
01:09:10,080 --> 01:09:11,920
Speaker 2: have told it exactly the same. And I'm thinking of

1306
01:09:12,080 --> 01:09:15,479
Speaker 2: like when the me too movement was when women finally

1307
01:09:16,439 --> 01:09:23,479
Speaker 2: were also you know, to quote Suzanne Levigne in my

1308
01:09:23,560 --> 01:09:27,639
Speaker 2: section not feeling alone and not feeling crazy, it takes

1309
01:09:27,680 --> 01:09:30,400
Speaker 2: one woman to speak out about me too, and then

1310
01:09:30,760 --> 01:09:33,200
Speaker 2: you know, hashtag me too, me too, me too, and

1311
01:09:33,320 --> 01:09:36,360
Speaker 2: that was what six years ago? You know, I think that.

1312
01:09:36,520 --> 01:09:38,160
Speaker 1: But does it feel like we does it feel like

1313
01:09:38,200 --> 01:09:40,400
Speaker 1: a winner or a loss? Though, and considering what we've seen,

1314
01:09:40,479 --> 01:09:42,160
Speaker 1: like it feels like some days it feels like the

1315
01:09:42,240 --> 01:09:46,880
Speaker 1: me too movement has been stunted, the growth has been.

1316
01:09:46,840 --> 01:09:49,000
Speaker 2: Stunted, if you will, maybe you know, but it's already

1317
01:09:49,000 --> 01:09:52,120
Speaker 2: the cat's already out of the bag right like before,

1318
01:09:52,880 --> 01:09:54,040
Speaker 2: you know, And I could be wrong. This is just

1319
01:09:54,120 --> 01:09:56,240
Speaker 2: my opinion, right, I feel like before the cat wasn't

1320
01:09:56,280 --> 01:09:58,360
Speaker 2: out of the bag. So it was just like it

1321
01:09:58,479 --> 01:10:01,599
Speaker 2: was in nineteen seventies. It was secrets right, nobody talked

1322
01:10:01,600 --> 01:10:04,360
Speaker 2: about it. The cats out of the bag. Yes, there's

1323
01:10:04,400 --> 01:10:07,120
Speaker 2: still work to do, but it emboldened women to come

1324
01:10:07,200 --> 01:10:09,160
Speaker 2: together and speak about their experience.

1325
01:10:09,200 --> 01:10:12,880
Speaker 1: Well, we did elect a president who was found in

1326
01:10:12,960 --> 01:10:17,480
Speaker 1: a civil court to have I mean violated, the violated,

1327
01:10:17,560 --> 01:10:20,439
Speaker 1: the I forget the specific. I want to be careful

1328
01:10:20,479 --> 01:10:23,960
Speaker 1: here because there's lawsuit rama. But you know that what

1329
01:10:24,360 --> 01:10:26,680
Speaker 1: others might consider to be rape, I think.

1330
01:10:27,080 --> 01:10:31,280
Speaker 2: I think we live in an imperfect and complicated world,

1331
01:10:31,600 --> 01:10:34,000
Speaker 2: and I think these are just the things we navigate

1332
01:10:34,160 --> 01:10:40,479
Speaker 2: day to day, year to year, and it's I feel like, again,

1333
01:10:40,520 --> 01:10:43,840
Speaker 2: I'm a glass half full person. These are probably I

1334
01:10:43,920 --> 01:10:46,960
Speaker 2: think we're better than Caveman times. Every day is better

1335
01:10:47,040 --> 01:10:49,200
Speaker 2: than the name, even if it feels like we're going backwards.

1336
01:10:50,080 --> 01:10:51,519
Speaker 2: I have to feel that every day.

1337
01:10:53,479 --> 01:10:55,880
Speaker 1: I make myself feel better by saying, you know the

1338
01:10:56,000 --> 01:10:58,360
Speaker 1: quote that the arc of history ben storte justice, and

1339
01:10:58,439 --> 01:11:02,439
Speaker 1: sometimes arcs have to go back words before they go forwards. Right,

1340
01:11:02,439 --> 01:11:04,880
Speaker 1: You're gonna get onto an overpass and you have to

1341
01:11:04,920 --> 01:11:07,800
Speaker 1: go south before you go north, and so maybe you

1342
01:11:07,880 --> 01:11:10,080
Speaker 1: know that's how I try to think. So maybe we

1343
01:11:10,160 --> 01:11:12,960
Speaker 1: have to just we're just taking this roundabout way we go,

1344
01:11:13,160 --> 01:11:13,400
Speaker 1: and it.

1345
01:11:13,400 --> 01:11:15,400
Speaker 2: Can be ugly and messy on the way. You know,

1346
01:11:15,479 --> 01:11:18,160
Speaker 2: it's not a beautiful perfect with Rose's journey.

1347
01:11:19,680 --> 01:11:21,559
Speaker 1: I want you, guys to address all of this. Cecilia,

1348
01:11:21,560 --> 01:11:23,840
Speaker 1: I'll start with you. Which is the legacy of Gloria

1349
01:11:23,840 --> 01:11:28,759
Speaker 1: Steinem And I think about this and that here's somebody

1350
01:11:28,880 --> 01:11:32,639
Speaker 1: who at different points, and I just think about how

1351
01:11:32,720 --> 01:11:35,439
Speaker 1: I noticed her. She was considered a polarizing person when

1352
01:11:35,479 --> 01:11:39,320
Speaker 1: I was younger, you know, because and maybe that's just

1353
01:11:39,400 --> 01:11:41,600
Speaker 1: how my house dealt with it. I'm not gonna I know,

1354
01:11:43,080 --> 01:11:47,960
Speaker 1: just she felt polarizing, and now she feels like this pioneer,

1355
01:11:48,840 --> 01:11:51,519
Speaker 1: and yet she's not gotten her due the way Billy

1356
01:11:51,600 --> 01:11:53,800
Speaker 1: Jing King is now getting her due. Right, Billy Jing King,

1357
01:11:53,840 --> 01:11:57,280
Speaker 1: I always thought was was sort of punished for being

1358
01:11:58,000 --> 01:12:02,839
Speaker 1: outspoken in the seventies and he's finally getting celebrated now almost.

1359
01:12:02,960 --> 01:12:07,320
Speaker 1: You're like, okay, better late than never, for the for

1360
01:12:07,840 --> 01:12:11,120
Speaker 1: the leadership she used in sports to try to advance

1361
01:12:11,200 --> 01:12:15,839
Speaker 1: women's rights. So talk about the legacy of Gloria Steins.

1362
01:12:16,640 --> 01:12:19,360
Speaker 5: I kind of want toss me naughty and respond to

1363
01:12:19,479 --> 01:12:22,880
Speaker 5: the previous question first only a couple of things because

1364
01:12:22,880 --> 01:12:24,679
Speaker 5: that came up for me because when Alice was talking

1365
01:12:24,760 --> 01:12:26,240
Speaker 5: to me too. I was just talking with a friend

1366
01:12:26,280 --> 01:12:29,160
Speaker 5: the other day about what she felt was a failure

1367
01:12:29,200 --> 01:12:31,960
Speaker 5: of me too, and she said, it should have never

1368
01:12:32,040 --> 01:12:33,519
Speaker 5: been me too, it should have been them too.

1369
01:12:34,800 --> 01:12:37,800
Speaker 4: The Me Too movement was predicated on women having to

1370
01:12:37,920 --> 01:12:40,439
Speaker 4: perform their pain and their victimhood. We all had to

1371
01:12:40,520 --> 01:12:43,200
Speaker 4: go around saying this happened to me. And while that

1372
01:12:43,360 --> 01:12:45,840
Speaker 4: was cathartic, it didn't result in justice.

1373
01:12:46,040 --> 01:12:47,599
Speaker 1: Like the men never got shamed.

1374
01:12:48,000 --> 01:12:50,519
Speaker 4: The traders got away with it. And I think that's

1375
01:12:50,640 --> 01:12:52,240
Speaker 4: maybe one thing to consider.

1376
01:12:52,960 --> 01:12:54,840
Speaker 5: Another thing I want to think about is I was

1377
01:12:54,880 --> 01:12:58,640
Speaker 5: thinking about this kind of panic and homophobia among the

1378
01:12:59,000 --> 01:13:03,760
Speaker 5: feminist mainstream. You know, famously, Betty Furden, who wrote The Femininistique,

1379
01:13:04,280 --> 01:13:08,200
Speaker 5: called lesbians the lavender menace, and like really thought that

1380
01:13:08,360 --> 01:13:11,800
Speaker 5: lesbians were going to tank the gains of the feminist movement.

1381
01:13:11,960 --> 01:13:16,439
Speaker 5: And I see parallels now with schisms within feminism around

1382
01:13:16,479 --> 01:13:19,479
Speaker 5: trans women. That sort of thinking again about the gay

1383
01:13:19,560 --> 01:13:22,000
Speaker 5: rights movement. There was at that moment around gay marriage,

1384
01:13:22,040 --> 01:13:23,920
Speaker 5: a lot of people were like, what about trans people

1385
01:13:24,439 --> 01:13:25,160
Speaker 5: like gay marriage?

1386
01:13:25,200 --> 01:13:27,879
Speaker 1: Well, I've heard that debate too, and that also is divided.

1387
01:13:28,160 --> 01:13:30,320
Speaker 1: It still divides the gay rights community, by the way.

1388
01:13:30,400 --> 01:13:33,719
Speaker 5: Yeah, and so now we're seeing this moment of another

1389
01:13:34,000 --> 01:13:37,800
Speaker 5: kind of factionalism happening where you know, I'm hearing a

1390
01:13:37,840 --> 01:13:40,519
Speaker 5: lot of women who call themselves feminists who are saying,

1391
01:13:40,680 --> 01:13:43,600
Speaker 5: get these trans women off my girls sports team. And

1392
01:13:44,880 --> 01:13:48,040
Speaker 5: my piece is very much about what happens when a

1393
01:13:48,120 --> 01:13:53,400
Speaker 5: movement jettison's and ignores the most vulnerable, the most marginalized,

1394
01:13:53,400 --> 01:13:55,559
Speaker 5: the most attacked, and in my case, in my piece

1395
01:13:55,640 --> 01:13:56,479
Speaker 5: it was sex workers.

1396
01:13:57,040 --> 01:14:00,439
Speaker 4: But I think we can see a very scary parallel

1397
01:14:00,520 --> 01:14:02,600
Speaker 4: and through line with trans women right now. And I

1398
01:14:02,640 --> 01:14:05,479
Speaker 4: think that trans women should be at the epicenter of

1399
01:14:05,920 --> 01:14:09,920
Speaker 4: a healthy feminist movement. So anyway, I just wanted to say, I.

1400
01:14:10,000 --> 01:14:12,040
Speaker 1: Know, I'm glad you brought that up because talk about

1401
01:14:12,040 --> 01:14:13,719
Speaker 1: it unresolved, Talk about unresolved.

1402
01:14:14,080 --> 01:14:16,400
Speaker 5: Yeah, But as far as Gloria's concerned, I do think Listen,

1403
01:14:16,479 --> 01:14:17,519
Speaker 5: I think Lauria is an icon.

1404
01:14:17,640 --> 01:14:20,240
Speaker 4: I think that she has reached that level of icon status.

1405
01:14:20,280 --> 01:14:25,920
Speaker 5: I think that unfortunately, you know, social justice warriors get

1406
01:14:26,160 --> 01:14:27,680
Speaker 5: they may end up a bit niche, you know what

1407
01:14:27,720 --> 01:14:30,240
Speaker 5: I mean. But like in if you mentioned Gloria's sign

1408
01:14:30,320 --> 01:14:33,680
Speaker 5: them to anybody who's remotely familiar with feminism, they'll be like, oh,

1409
01:14:33,760 --> 01:14:37,000
Speaker 5: of course. And she has been celebrated in many films

1410
01:14:37,040 --> 01:14:38,760
Speaker 5: like this is not the only docmentory about her.

1411
01:14:38,760 --> 01:14:38,840
Speaker 1: There.

1412
01:14:39,080 --> 01:14:42,479
Speaker 5: There's an amazing documentary about her on HBO. So for

1413
01:14:42,640 --> 01:14:45,560
Speaker 5: those that want to know more, I think Gloria is

1414
01:14:45,600 --> 01:14:46,240
Speaker 5: somebody who.

1415
01:14:47,800 --> 01:14:50,280
Speaker 4: Is I'm very happy to say that I think she

1416
01:14:50,439 --> 01:14:52,519
Speaker 4: is getting her due now. We can always say we

1417
01:14:52,600 --> 01:14:53,360
Speaker 4: need to do more.

1418
01:14:53,720 --> 01:14:55,400
Speaker 1: But no, I agree that she is now. But it

1419
01:14:55,479 --> 01:14:57,400
Speaker 1: does feel I just look at it, I feel like

1420
01:14:58,320 --> 01:15:01,240
Speaker 1: it's still a little it's still a little way I think.

1421
01:15:01,560 --> 01:15:03,080
Speaker 4: I think I'm always going to look at this.

1422
01:15:03,240 --> 01:15:04,640
Speaker 5: One of the things I love about this film, and

1423
01:15:04,680 --> 01:15:06,200
Speaker 5: I think one of the things I really respect about

1424
01:15:06,200 --> 01:15:08,400
Speaker 5: Gloria and in the way she worked, was that she

1425
01:15:08,640 --> 01:15:11,360
Speaker 5: was she was very savvy and smart about how to

1426
01:15:12,400 --> 01:15:15,559
Speaker 5: you know, use the media and optics and her look

1427
01:15:15,640 --> 01:15:15,920
Speaker 5: and her.

1428
01:15:15,880 --> 01:15:19,080
Speaker 4: Style and and and how she managed to do something.

1429
01:15:19,120 --> 01:15:21,000
Speaker 5: I think of her as like the first influencer in

1430
01:15:21,040 --> 01:15:23,680
Speaker 5: a way like or you know, an influencer activist, like

1431
01:15:23,800 --> 01:15:27,320
Speaker 5: she knew how to work her persona, but she always

1432
01:15:27,439 --> 01:15:30,640
Speaker 5: did that to leverage opportunities for other people. And the

1433
01:15:30,720 --> 01:15:32,960
Speaker 5: story of Miss is not the story of Gloria's side up.

1434
01:15:32,960 --> 01:15:34,479
Speaker 5: The story of Miss is a story of a movement.

1435
01:15:34,600 --> 01:15:38,240
Speaker 5: It's a story of a coalition of women. And I

1436
01:15:38,280 --> 01:15:42,320
Speaker 5: think Gloria herself has has really fought to say, Look,

1437
01:15:42,360 --> 01:15:45,320
Speaker 5: it's not just all about me, So you know, that's

1438
01:15:45,520 --> 01:15:46,559
Speaker 5: That's what I think.

1439
01:15:46,840 --> 01:15:47,400
Speaker 4: Part of what I.

1440
01:15:47,520 --> 01:15:49,920
Speaker 5: Respect and how she worked and how she should be

1441
01:15:50,600 --> 01:15:53,840
Speaker 5: honored is the fact that she was always trying to

1442
01:15:53,920 --> 01:15:58,360
Speaker 5: use her power to open doors and and build something

1443
01:15:58,439 --> 01:15:59,360
Speaker 5: bigger than herself.

1444
01:16:00,160 --> 01:16:00,280
Speaker 2: Right.

1445
01:16:00,320 --> 01:16:03,360
Speaker 1: Look, she as somebody who's in some ways a pioneer

1446
01:16:03,400 --> 01:16:06,840
Speaker 1: in the movement. She's never she's not as egotistical as

1447
01:16:06,920 --> 01:16:11,920
Speaker 1: others might be given her accomplishments. Yeah, Selema, you wanted

1448
01:16:11,920 --> 01:16:12,519
Speaker 1: to chime in here.

1449
01:16:12,640 --> 01:16:17,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that something that I learned while making

1450
01:16:17,080 --> 01:16:18,840
Speaker 3: this film is that it's sort of easy to sit

1451
01:16:18,920 --> 01:16:23,080
Speaker 3: here in twenty twenty five. You know, I'm a millennial myself, right,

1452
01:16:23,240 --> 01:16:27,800
Speaker 3: and critique, critique the women who sort of came before.

1453
01:16:28,120 --> 01:16:30,360
Speaker 3: It's easy to critique do this.

1454
01:16:30,600 --> 01:16:31,800
Speaker 1: How come you didn't do it this way?

1455
01:16:32,040 --> 01:16:34,000
Speaker 4: Yes, right, it's easy to do that.

1456
01:16:35,200 --> 01:16:38,040
Speaker 3: We were talking about a different time, a time where

1457
01:16:38,120 --> 01:16:41,240
Speaker 3: like women couldn't have bank accounts, a time when.

1458
01:16:41,920 --> 01:16:44,520
Speaker 4: You know, Roe v. Wade didn't even exist.

1459
01:16:44,320 --> 01:16:47,719
Speaker 1: Yet, right, interracial marriage was only legal for four years

1460
01:16:47,800 --> 01:16:49,479
Speaker 1: when Miss magazine was lost.

1461
01:16:50,160 --> 01:16:52,519
Speaker 4: Okay, we're talking about a different time.

1462
01:16:52,840 --> 01:16:56,000
Speaker 3: And so, you know, one of the things I asked

1463
01:16:56,479 --> 01:16:59,280
Speaker 3: Gloria and you know, the other women when I first

1464
01:16:59,320 --> 01:17:02,439
Speaker 3: started researching for this is, you know, why do you

1465
01:17:02,479 --> 01:17:06,080
Speaker 3: think the term feminism is a dirty word now?

1466
01:17:06,680 --> 01:17:08,120
Speaker 4: And they said it always was.

1467
01:17:08,439 --> 01:17:11,679
Speaker 3: That's how it's been like that, and so their fight,

1468
01:17:11,840 --> 01:17:18,600
Speaker 3: they were fighting something else. And I just think, you know,

1469
01:17:19,080 --> 01:17:21,519
Speaker 3: being able to talk to those people, I want to say,

1470
01:17:21,600 --> 01:17:24,400
Speaker 3: talk to the elders about what it was like really

1471
01:17:24,560 --> 01:17:27,519
Speaker 3: informs how I think about things now, because it's easy again,

1472
01:17:27,600 --> 01:17:29,640
Speaker 3: like I said, to criticize, it's easy to sort of

1473
01:17:29,920 --> 01:17:32,160
Speaker 3: you know, but yeah.

1474
01:17:32,000 --> 01:17:32,519
Speaker 4: It was different.

1475
01:17:33,000 --> 01:17:34,960
Speaker 1: Well, what I was going to say is, you know,

1476
01:17:35,160 --> 01:17:38,160
Speaker 1: so I first started professionally in the year of the One.

1477
01:17:38,360 --> 01:17:40,559
Speaker 1: Nineteen ninety two was politically the year of the woman.

1478
01:17:40,680 --> 01:17:44,040
Speaker 1: There was all these a slew of women that actually

1479
01:17:44,080 --> 01:17:46,280
Speaker 1: won Senate seats. It was a big deal. It wasn't

1480
01:17:46,320 --> 01:17:48,479
Speaker 1: the first we had Barbara, you know, you certainly had

1481
01:17:48,479 --> 01:17:51,000
Speaker 1: one or two before then, Barbara mccolsky being the most prominent.

1482
01:17:51,400 --> 01:17:53,640
Speaker 1: But nineteen ninety two was a was a big year.

1483
01:17:53,720 --> 01:17:56,400
Speaker 1: The election of both Barbara Foxer and Diane Feinstein, the

1484
01:17:56,439 --> 01:17:59,679
Speaker 1: nominations of Jerry Ferraro, lenniekol There was a whole whole slew.

1485
01:18:00,400 --> 01:18:06,800
Speaker 1: And what I distinctly remember was how fearful the campaigns

1486
01:18:06,840 --> 01:18:09,760
Speaker 1: of those women candidates were. They didn't want to be

1487
01:18:09,880 --> 01:18:12,640
Speaker 1: seen as campaigning with Gloria steinem they didn't want to

1488
01:18:12,680 --> 01:18:15,240
Speaker 1: be seen as movement candidates because they were quote unquote

1489
01:18:15,240 --> 01:18:17,559
Speaker 1: trying to win the middle of the electorate. And that's

1490
01:18:17,600 --> 01:18:20,720
Speaker 1: what I mean. Where here's here she was pioneer. And look,

1491
01:18:21,840 --> 01:18:24,759
Speaker 1: it's not we didn't see Barack Obama embracing Jesse Jackson,

1492
01:18:24,960 --> 01:18:27,600
Speaker 1: arguably for similar reasons and all of that.

1493
01:18:28,520 --> 01:18:29,880
Speaker 4: He's going to embrace mom, Donnie.

1494
01:18:31,920 --> 01:18:34,640
Speaker 1: I don't think we're gonna get I'll be shocked on that.

1495
01:18:36,200 --> 01:18:39,400
Speaker 1: But anyway, So what do you make of that observation.

1496
01:18:41,479 --> 01:18:43,280
Speaker 3: I mean, Alice, you probably know a little bit more

1497
01:18:43,280 --> 01:18:45,320
Speaker 3: about this. You started talking about this. Uh, you know,

1498
01:18:45,439 --> 01:18:48,200
Speaker 3: the rate we're coming out of the Reagan era, we're

1499
01:18:48,240 --> 01:18:52,439
Speaker 3: coming into you know, a political uh you know, environment

1500
01:18:52,520 --> 01:18:55,840
Speaker 3: where you know, Democrats had to be tough on crime,

1501
01:18:55,960 --> 01:18:56,439
Speaker 3: they had.

1502
01:18:56,320 --> 01:19:00,559
Speaker 4: To move, you know, sort of moved towards the right. Right, So.

1503
01:19:02,520 --> 01:19:06,120
Speaker 3: You know that's what I think about I'm not sure, Alice,

1504
01:19:06,160 --> 01:19:07,760
Speaker 3: I don't know, have any thoughts about that.

1505
01:19:08,439 --> 01:19:10,439
Speaker 2: I mean, I guess the analogy would be like the

1506
01:19:10,600 --> 01:19:16,000
Speaker 2: claral and the advertising. Right, It's like people politicians, you

1507
01:19:16,120 --> 01:19:23,920
Speaker 2: have to appeal you have. It's a sticky, ugly, messy situation, right,

1508
01:19:24,080 --> 01:19:29,559
Speaker 2: So you know it's unfortunate, you know, That's why I'm

1509
01:19:29,560 --> 01:19:34,400
Speaker 2: not in politics. I think, right, it's unfortunate that to

1510
01:19:34,600 --> 01:19:37,800
Speaker 2: please certain consitions. I guess that's why it's called politics, right.

1511
01:19:38,240 --> 01:19:41,120
Speaker 1: Right, Well, that's why I always say we invented politics

1512
01:19:41,160 --> 01:19:44,400
Speaker 1: so that we could settle disputes without violence. But the

1513
01:19:44,479 --> 01:19:46,960
Speaker 1: whole point was we're never all supposed to be one

1514
01:19:47,040 --> 01:19:50,880
Speaker 1: hundred percent comfortable with the out comes. Sometimes it's all incrementalism.

1515
01:19:51,200 --> 01:19:52,840
Speaker 1: But Alice, I didn't get you. I want to get

1516
01:19:52,880 --> 01:19:55,559
Speaker 1: your thoughts on Gloria Steinem and her and her sort

1517
01:19:55,600 --> 01:19:56,320
Speaker 1: of legacy.

1518
01:19:57,840 --> 01:20:01,240
Speaker 2: You know what, I'll piggyback on what Cecilia is saying.

1519
01:20:01,320 --> 01:20:05,479
Speaker 2: I think she is kind of getting her moment. But certainly, Yeah,

1520
01:20:05,520 --> 01:20:08,360
Speaker 2: she's not a household name. Necessarily for people who are

1521
01:20:08,400 --> 01:20:10,960
Speaker 2: familiar with the feminist movement, this is like, oh wow.

1522
01:20:11,080 --> 01:20:13,400
Speaker 2: You know, I certainly have many friends who are like

1523
01:20:14,040 --> 01:20:16,120
Speaker 2: the oohs and the oh's that I'm working with Glorius.

1524
01:20:15,800 --> 01:20:18,320
Speaker 1: Deynam, But I find others that have to go to

1525
01:20:18,400 --> 01:20:19,960
Speaker 1: Google and find out, wait, who is that again?

1526
01:20:20,360 --> 01:20:22,760
Speaker 2: Others that have to go to Google. And you know what,

1527
01:20:22,800 --> 01:20:27,280
Speaker 2: I would say this film for me, I'm so excited

1528
01:20:27,280 --> 01:20:30,560
Speaker 2: and proud of it coming out at this time in

1529
01:20:30,640 --> 01:20:33,880
Speaker 2: a time twenty twenty five. It's crazy. Our attention spans

1530
01:20:33,880 --> 01:20:36,439
Speaker 2: are so short. We don't remember what happened last year,

1531
01:20:36,840 --> 01:20:39,600
Speaker 2: let alone fifty years ago. So for this film to

1532
01:20:39,640 --> 01:20:42,920
Speaker 2: come out now, and for young women and men to

1533
01:20:43,040 --> 01:20:45,920
Speaker 2: watch this film, and as in the beginning of our

1534
01:20:45,960 --> 01:20:49,040
Speaker 2: conversation of how different life was like ten years ago,

1535
01:20:49,120 --> 01:20:54,000
Speaker 2: twenty years ago and in our lifetimes, those jaw dropping

1536
01:20:54,080 --> 01:20:56,360
Speaker 2: moments again, it's like, oh my god, animal House.

1537
01:20:56,160 --> 01:20:59,520
Speaker 4: What have you to remember.

1538
01:21:00,960 --> 01:21:01,720
Speaker 1: What it was like?

1539
01:21:02,200 --> 01:21:04,600
Speaker 2: To remember where we don't want to go back to.

1540
01:21:05,720 --> 01:21:10,599
Speaker 2: And also, you know, I hope this film gets people

1541
01:21:10,680 --> 01:21:15,000
Speaker 2: talking and it opens up a dialogue and Gloria Steinem

1542
01:21:15,280 --> 01:21:17,680
Speaker 2: is back in the forefront of conversation, and this does

1543
01:21:17,760 --> 01:21:22,559
Speaker 2: help her get her due because I certainly am this film.

1544
01:21:22,640 --> 01:21:24,679
Speaker 2: I'm so proud of it in all three different parts.

1545
01:21:25,200 --> 01:21:27,720
Speaker 2: I'll just say from my own section and for filmmakers

1546
01:21:28,439 --> 01:21:31,680
Speaker 2: in editing, I've watched my section no less than a

1547
01:21:31,760 --> 01:21:36,479
Speaker 2: thousand times, and even still at the one thousandth time

1548
01:21:37,520 --> 01:21:40,320
Speaker 2: at the end, I'm still very emotional to think about

1549
01:21:40,320 --> 01:21:42,439
Speaker 2: how far we have come. I know we've talked about

1550
01:21:42,479 --> 01:21:44,920
Speaker 2: how far we still have to go, but I am

1551
01:21:45,080 --> 01:21:47,080
Speaker 2: so very proud of how far we have come.

1552
01:21:47,800 --> 01:21:50,479
Speaker 1: So in ten years, if you add a part four,

1553
01:21:52,760 --> 01:21:54,200
Speaker 1: let's say you update it and they say, hey, we

1554
01:21:54,280 --> 01:21:55,920
Speaker 1: want to add a part four. Is it the rise

1555
01:21:55,960 --> 01:22:01,400
Speaker 1: of women's sports? I mean in women's sports heroes. I mean,

1556
01:22:02,040 --> 01:22:04,080
Speaker 1: it's the one thing when I think about the moment

1557
01:22:04,160 --> 01:22:06,880
Speaker 1: we're in, right, Look nineteen seventy two and nineteen seventy three,

1558
01:22:06,960 --> 01:22:09,000
Speaker 1: right you have you have Robi Wading in seventy three

1559
01:22:09,080 --> 01:22:11,679
Speaker 1: at title nine and seventy three of the birth of magazine,

1560
01:22:11,760 --> 01:22:15,280
Speaker 1: like it was like, you know, this was and you know,

1561
01:22:15,360 --> 01:22:17,560
Speaker 1: I look at at the success of Caitlin Clark and

1562
01:22:17,600 --> 01:22:21,439
Speaker 1: I'm like, that's title nine, Like that's how government can

1563
01:22:21,600 --> 01:22:27,280
Speaker 1: work to advance equality. It takes time, literally two generations,

1564
01:22:27,479 --> 01:22:32,559
Speaker 1: not one, two generations. But here's a here's a here's

1565
01:22:32,600 --> 01:22:35,559
Speaker 1: a success story, which is the rise of women's sports.

1566
01:22:35,840 --> 01:22:38,479
Speaker 2: I'll jump in. Yeah, so I'll jump in real quick.

1567
01:22:38,720 --> 01:22:42,360
Speaker 2: I'm very excited. So in my when I'm not directing documentaries,

1568
01:22:42,360 --> 01:22:44,760
Speaker 2: i also direct commercials. So in two weeks time, I'll

1569
01:22:44,760 --> 01:22:47,519
Speaker 2: actually be in Florida, very excited. I'm going to be

1570
01:22:47,560 --> 01:22:50,519
Speaker 2: shooting Cocoa Golf. For people who are familiar, she is

1571
01:22:51,320 --> 01:22:55,160
Speaker 2: incredible phenomen women's tennis. And I was like, yeah, I'm

1572
01:22:55,200 --> 01:22:59,479
Speaker 2: shooting Coco GoF the highest paid female athlete. And I

1573
01:22:59,560 --> 01:23:02,160
Speaker 2: said this my friend's mother who was born and raised

1574
01:23:02,160 --> 01:23:06,040
Speaker 2: in England. She's got an well maybe almost eighty now,

1575
01:23:06,439 --> 01:23:09,840
Speaker 2: and she's been a triathlete for like most of her life.

1576
01:23:10,640 --> 01:23:13,320
Speaker 2: And I said to you know, and I'm sitting Cocoa

1577
01:23:13,360 --> 01:23:14,960
Speaker 2: Golf and I was so excited. I was there with

1578
01:23:15,040 --> 01:23:17,559
Speaker 2: my you know, grinning from ear to ear. And she's

1579
01:23:17,680 --> 01:23:20,360
Speaker 2: like you know what that is. She's like, think about

1580
01:23:20,400 --> 01:23:24,080
Speaker 2: her and the highest paid male athlete. And I was like,

1581
01:23:24,240 --> 01:23:27,000
Speaker 2: instantly that grinned from my face. I was like, oh, wait,

1582
01:23:27,120 --> 01:23:28,599
Speaker 2: let me let me look this up right. So look,

1583
01:23:28,760 --> 01:23:31,080
Speaker 2: Chris Joanna Ronaldo makes two hundred and sixty million dollars

1584
01:23:31,120 --> 01:23:32,120
Speaker 2: a year, and I was going to.

1585
01:23:32,120 --> 01:23:34,120
Speaker 1: Say, it's a professional soccer player with a sin right.

1586
01:23:36,120 --> 01:23:39,320
Speaker 2: Cocoa golf making thirty million. I'm like, so the highest

1587
01:23:39,320 --> 01:23:42,920
Speaker 2: paid female athlete makes almost nine times the less than

1588
01:23:42,920 --> 01:23:46,840
Speaker 2: the highest paid male athlete, toe being almost eighty. We

1589
01:23:46,960 --> 01:23:50,800
Speaker 2: get my friend's mother racing triathlons. She was told by

1590
01:23:50,880 --> 01:23:53,720
Speaker 2: her doctors when she was racing, you can't do this.

1591
01:23:53,840 --> 01:23:57,479
Speaker 2: Your uterus is going to fall out. So she's so

1592
01:23:57,800 --> 01:23:59,680
Speaker 2: fired up. I was like, oh my god, so talk

1593
01:23:59,680 --> 01:24:02,000
Speaker 2: about the importance of talking to people and your elders.

1594
01:24:02,080 --> 01:24:03,880
Speaker 2: This is a whole new perspective because I was all there.

1595
01:24:03,920 --> 01:24:05,400
Speaker 2: I was like, oh my god, I'm eating cocoa goth

1596
01:24:05,439 --> 01:24:07,960
Speaker 2: Da And she's like, wait a minute. She's like, I'm

1597
01:24:08,160 --> 01:24:13,720
Speaker 2: fired up about women in sports equal pay, recognition, and yeah,

1598
01:24:13,760 --> 01:24:15,439
Speaker 2: I hope you're right, Chuck. I hope that part for

1599
01:24:15,640 --> 01:24:17,840
Speaker 2: will be the rise of women in sports and getting

1600
01:24:17,960 --> 01:24:20,080
Speaker 2: equal recognition and equal pay.

1601
01:24:20,880 --> 01:24:25,439
Speaker 1: Look, sports sometimes is the is the I don't know

1602
01:24:25,520 --> 01:24:27,720
Speaker 1: if what do they call it the safest path to

1603
01:24:27,840 --> 01:24:31,880
Speaker 1: create cultural change in society, but it isn't It seems

1604
01:24:31,960 --> 01:24:36,919
Speaker 1: to be a better path than just straight up politics. Seleima.

1605
01:24:37,400 --> 01:24:40,720
Speaker 3: You know what, I am A used to be a

1606
01:24:40,840 --> 01:24:45,600
Speaker 3: huge NBA fan. I'm from Sacramento, Kings all day. But

1607
01:24:45,760 --> 01:24:51,280
Speaker 3: also you see how the WNBA is. I find it

1608
01:24:51,479 --> 01:24:54,519
Speaker 3: so it makes me feel good to see how people

1609
01:24:54,560 --> 01:24:58,840
Speaker 3: are talking about the WNBA. Now, you know, I used

1610
01:24:58,840 --> 01:25:01,800
Speaker 3: to see all of US media. Anytime there was a woman,

1611
01:25:02,360 --> 01:25:04,240
Speaker 3: uh you know, if it's ESPN and they show like

1612
01:25:04,280 --> 01:25:06,960
Speaker 3: a woman playing, there was all these like derogatory comments

1613
01:25:07,040 --> 01:25:08,799
Speaker 3: under it make a sandwich.

1614
01:25:09,120 --> 01:25:14,160
Speaker 4: And now I'm seeing like men following the w n

1615
01:25:14,240 --> 01:25:16,120
Speaker 4: B A I see, you know, and.

1616
01:25:16,840 --> 01:25:23,160
Speaker 3: There's some of usball. Yeah right, there's there. There's something happening,

1617
01:25:23,200 --> 01:25:26,559
Speaker 3: and I don't know, I think it's good. I think

1618
01:25:26,680 --> 01:25:31,120
Speaker 3: that in sports, the trajectory is good. It seems to

1619
01:25:31,160 --> 01:25:34,400
Speaker 3: be better in sports than politics. But that wayeah yeah, yeah, yeah,

1620
01:25:34,640 --> 01:25:37,760
Speaker 3: I mean definitely. You know, Cecilia already mentioned this. There

1621
01:25:37,880 --> 01:25:42,280
Speaker 3: is uh, there's it is a battleground for trans rites

1622
01:25:42,320 --> 01:25:42,679
Speaker 3: as well.

1623
01:25:42,920 --> 01:25:45,960
Speaker 4: It is uh. But I think you're right. I didn't

1624
01:25:45,960 --> 01:25:47,320
Speaker 4: actually think about this till you said it.

1625
01:25:47,360 --> 01:25:50,240
Speaker 3: I think sports is sort of like a metaphor for

1626
01:25:50,439 --> 01:25:55,320
Speaker 3: for what's going on in society, right I I just I.

1627
01:25:55,320 --> 01:25:58,800
Speaker 5: Think I want to say that one of the things

1628
01:25:58,880 --> 01:26:01,680
Speaker 5: that I think talking about cycles of history, one of

1629
01:26:01,760 --> 01:26:03,920
Speaker 5: the things that I think we ignore at our peril

1630
01:26:04,680 --> 01:26:06,760
Speaker 5: is that, you know, and we talk about the Democratic Party,

1631
01:26:06,760 --> 01:26:08,439
Speaker 5: I think one of the things the Democratic Party has

1632
01:26:08,479 --> 01:26:11,439
Speaker 5: done and that the mainstream has done to its detriment,

1633
01:26:11,760 --> 01:26:15,840
Speaker 5: is focusing on optical change versus structural change. And I'm

1634
01:26:15,880 --> 01:26:18,160
Speaker 5: not saying that these changes aren't real in the sense

1635
01:26:18,200 --> 01:26:21,439
Speaker 5: of like, yeah, of course every female athlete deserves to

1636
01:26:21,520 --> 01:26:25,599
Speaker 5: make the same, but that's a very specific and very

1637
01:26:25,640 --> 01:26:28,800
Speaker 5: elite group of people that we're talking about. And I'm

1638
01:26:28,840 --> 01:26:31,880
Speaker 5: thinking about the I forget the name of the the

1639
01:26:32,520 --> 01:26:35,000
Speaker 5: this this crazy debate that just happened between was it

1640
01:26:35,080 --> 01:26:39,200
Speaker 5: Venus and Serena Williams and this anti transfer Simone Biles

1641
01:26:39,280 --> 01:26:40,479
Speaker 5: and Simone Biles?

1642
01:26:40,520 --> 01:26:41,040
Speaker 4: What am I talking?

1643
01:26:41,120 --> 01:26:41,519
Speaker 1: I'm just like.

1644
01:26:43,000 --> 01:26:48,240
Speaker 4: Women and what was the name of this? Thank you?

1645
01:26:48,439 --> 01:26:49,040
Speaker 4: Riley Gaines.

1646
01:26:49,120 --> 01:26:51,320
Speaker 5: Like that to me is such an interesting case study

1647
01:26:51,360 --> 01:26:53,719
Speaker 5: that we should be looking at in terms of women's

1648
01:26:53,760 --> 01:26:57,800
Speaker 5: sports and in terms of the crazy hysteria, the moral

1649
01:26:57,880 --> 01:27:00,720
Speaker 5: panic that we're seeing around trans girls. And I want

1650
01:27:00,720 --> 01:27:04,000
Speaker 5: to think about ten years from now that those girls,

1651
01:27:04,080 --> 01:27:06,479
Speaker 5: all the girls that are playing in sports, are they

1652
01:27:06,920 --> 01:27:09,519
Speaker 5: playing in an atmosphere of hate? Are they playing in

1653
01:27:09,560 --> 01:27:14,519
Speaker 5: an atmosphere where you know, we could literally have It's

1654
01:27:14,600 --> 01:27:17,160
Speaker 5: not too crazy to imagine in ten years having internment

1655
01:27:17,240 --> 01:27:20,559
Speaker 5: camps for trans people, and so like, when I think

1656
01:27:20,640 --> 01:27:22,120
Speaker 5: about this, I think about how.

1657
01:27:22,040 --> 01:27:24,200
Speaker 4: Are we doing systemic change in women's.

1658
01:27:23,880 --> 01:27:27,160
Speaker 5: Sports, Like how are we making sure that poor girls

1659
01:27:27,479 --> 01:27:32,599
Speaker 5: get access to equipment that you know that everybody has

1660
01:27:32,680 --> 01:27:35,400
Speaker 5: a shot at being their best version of themselves. And

1661
01:27:35,439 --> 01:27:38,360
Speaker 5: I definitely think obviously like the pay of the highest

1662
01:27:38,439 --> 01:27:41,040
Speaker 5: at the top is something. Equal pay is an important

1663
01:27:41,080 --> 01:27:43,080
Speaker 5: part of that. And I'm not saying that people like

1664
01:27:43,160 --> 01:27:47,479
Speaker 5: Simone Biles haven't been incredible ambassadors, right, but I want

1665
01:27:47,520 --> 01:27:49,880
Speaker 5: to think about the Larry Masters of the world and

1666
01:27:49,960 --> 01:27:53,120
Speaker 5: how they were allowed to operate and attack all those

1667
01:27:53,960 --> 01:27:54,799
Speaker 5: so many young.

1668
01:27:54,680 --> 01:27:58,120
Speaker 4: Women abused within these systems. So like, that's where I

1669
01:27:58,200 --> 01:27:58,479
Speaker 4: want to be.

1670
01:27:58,560 --> 01:28:02,280
Speaker 5: I want to be more systemic about how we are,

1671
01:28:03,160 --> 01:28:05,720
Speaker 5: you know, fighting for change, because I think that we've

1672
01:28:05,760 --> 01:28:08,160
Speaker 5: seen a lot of progress, but the progress is also

1673
01:28:08,280 --> 01:28:12,240
Speaker 5: limited to people that are in many ways more privileged

1674
01:28:12,240 --> 01:28:12,840
Speaker 5: than other people.

1675
01:28:13,840 --> 01:28:14,880
Speaker 4: So that's where that's where I.

1676
01:28:14,920 --> 01:28:18,800
Speaker 1: Sit on this. Yeah, well well look I could keep going,

1677
01:28:18,880 --> 01:28:22,000
Speaker 1: but we've gone almost an hour and I know that.

1678
01:28:22,280 --> 01:28:29,560
Speaker 1: But before I go, what's anything that didn't make it?

1679
01:28:29,640 --> 01:28:32,200
Speaker 1: Anything on the cutting room floor that you guys regret

1680
01:28:32,439 --> 01:28:35,040
Speaker 1: or you know? Is that the is that the tyranny

1681
01:28:35,080 --> 01:28:37,160
Speaker 1: of any director. There's always stuff you wish you could

1682
01:28:37,600 --> 01:28:38,000
Speaker 1: I have too.

1683
01:28:38,200 --> 01:28:41,799
Speaker 3: I actually I did two covers. I actually did three covers.

1684
01:28:41,840 --> 01:28:44,080
Speaker 3: In the last cover we had to completely cut it,

1685
01:28:44,120 --> 01:28:46,600
Speaker 3: even though we edited it all for time. And that

1686
01:28:46,880 --> 01:28:51,439
Speaker 3: was a discussion about working I'm sorry, working mothers. So

1687
01:28:51,680 --> 01:28:54,800
Speaker 3: having children, uh, and then going into the workplace. The

1688
01:28:54,880 --> 01:28:57,120
Speaker 3: seventies was like the first time you're seeing a lot

1689
01:28:57,200 --> 01:29:01,360
Speaker 3: of women mothers having work and having to choose sort

1690
01:29:01,400 --> 01:29:02,320
Speaker 3: of being being a.

1691
01:29:02,360 --> 01:29:05,599
Speaker 1: Mother or going to Jane Paully talks about this because

1692
01:29:05,640 --> 01:29:07,840
Speaker 1: she was she was pregnant on air at the Today

1693
01:29:07,920 --> 01:29:09,920
Speaker 1: Show and that was a big deal when that happened. Yeah,

1694
01:29:10,000 --> 01:29:12,439
Speaker 1: oh wow time and it was the it was sort

1695
01:29:12,479 --> 01:29:15,439
Speaker 1: of you know, before Katie Curic, you know, and was

1696
01:29:15,479 --> 01:29:20,360
Speaker 1: sharing that stuff that Jane Pauley was sort of opening

1697
01:29:20,439 --> 01:29:23,000
Speaker 1: that door and sort of getting rid of that taboo.

1698
01:29:23,160 --> 01:29:27,720
Speaker 3: And MS magazine, the office had a place for the

1699
01:29:27,840 --> 01:29:30,040
Speaker 3: kids to come in if they wanted to write. So

1700
01:29:31,520 --> 01:29:34,320
Speaker 3: that and then the other thing is I wish I

1701
01:29:34,360 --> 01:29:36,800
Speaker 3: could have done more of a conversation about like not

1702
01:29:37,080 --> 01:29:40,040
Speaker 3: just the sort of rift between black black women and

1703
01:29:40,120 --> 01:29:43,320
Speaker 3: white women, but the riff black men and black women,

1704
01:29:43,600 --> 01:29:47,040
Speaker 3: right that still see today when we're talking about things,

1705
01:29:47,080 --> 01:29:50,679
Speaker 3: even the way you know, we vote, it's kind of different.

1706
01:29:50,840 --> 01:29:53,400
Speaker 1: Right. I had Jasmine Crockett on my podcast who was

1707
01:29:53,479 --> 01:29:57,679
Speaker 1: talking to me about black women black men campaigning, seeing

1708
01:29:57,760 --> 01:29:59,280
Speaker 1: that this was going to be a problem for Kamala

1709
01:29:59,479 --> 01:30:04,519
Speaker 1: I saw that campaigning. Yeah, Alice, what's on the cutting

1710
01:30:04,560 --> 01:30:07,840
Speaker 1: room floor that you want to You wish she could

1711
01:30:07,840 --> 01:30:08,559
Speaker 1: surface back up.

1712
01:30:09,240 --> 01:30:09,400
Speaker 5: You know.

1713
01:30:09,520 --> 01:30:11,400
Speaker 2: I only was able to get into it a little

1714
01:30:11,439 --> 01:30:13,639
Speaker 2: bit because we were so limited on time for each

1715
01:30:13,680 --> 01:30:16,280
Speaker 2: of our sections. But we do see at the end

1716
01:30:16,320 --> 01:30:18,840
Speaker 2: of mine, we mentioned Phyllis Schlaughley for a second and

1717
01:30:19,080 --> 01:30:24,960
Speaker 2: the rise of the Schlafleyites, right, and how how this

1718
01:30:25,120 --> 01:30:29,360
Speaker 2: kind of anti feminism, anti Glory stein In movement could arise,

1719
01:30:30,160 --> 01:30:34,320
Speaker 2: and that was that was largely born of again in

1720
01:30:35,040 --> 01:30:38,080
Speaker 2: a magazine that is trying to be something for everybody,

1721
01:30:38,280 --> 01:30:41,040
Speaker 2: certainly there are blind spots, and you know, and I

1722
01:30:41,080 --> 01:30:44,760
Speaker 2: would say largely very much unintentional for these women. But

1723
01:30:45,479 --> 01:30:50,559
Speaker 2: even our our archival researcher, she was born in Idaho,

1724
01:30:51,080 --> 01:30:53,840
Speaker 2: you know, and she she was an early subscriber to MS,

1725
01:30:53,880 --> 01:30:56,240
Speaker 2: and her mom would tell her, She's like, this is

1726
01:30:56,280 --> 01:30:58,120
Speaker 2: not for women like us, this is for women in

1727
01:30:58,160 --> 01:31:02,439
Speaker 2: the cities. They don't care about oral women. I wanted

1728
01:31:02,479 --> 01:31:04,600
Speaker 2: to get into that a little bit more. Again. We

1729
01:31:04,840 --> 01:31:07,280
Speaker 2: you know, Selima you talked about race, you know, and

1730
01:31:07,640 --> 01:31:10,880
Speaker 2: forgetting that, and and Cecilia you got into like the

1731
01:31:10,960 --> 01:31:13,920
Speaker 2: women that they excluded, And I really really wanted to

1732
01:31:13,960 --> 01:31:17,280
Speaker 2: talk about different women that they excluded in the movement,

1733
01:31:17,840 --> 01:31:19,679
Speaker 2: and I just couldn't get into it deeper.

1734
01:31:19,880 --> 01:31:22,679
Speaker 1: No, look on geography, this is a huge blind spot.

1735
01:31:22,800 --> 01:31:24,800
Speaker 1: I mean, this is a kind of you know, I

1736
01:31:24,960 --> 01:31:27,639
Speaker 1: worry about the urban world divide all the time because

1737
01:31:27,640 --> 01:31:32,720
Speaker 1: if you look at democracies that have failed, Venezuela and

1738
01:31:32,720 --> 01:31:35,479
Speaker 1: Turkey are my two favorite examples. It was just that

1739
01:31:36,040 --> 01:31:39,120
Speaker 1: urban and rural, that was that everything got divided by

1740
01:31:39,240 --> 01:31:42,400
Speaker 1: urban role. And then all of a sudden, essentially the

1741
01:31:42,479 --> 01:31:46,360
Speaker 1: pitchforks from rural came in and and and then you

1742
01:31:46,439 --> 01:31:49,840
Speaker 1: lost the democracy, all right, Cecilia, last one for you.

1743
01:31:50,600 --> 01:31:51,439
Speaker 4: Yeah, this was hard.

1744
01:31:51,439 --> 01:31:53,519
Speaker 5: I would say the runtime was a challenge for all

1745
01:31:53,560 --> 01:31:55,760
Speaker 5: of us because we were all so curious and for me,

1746
01:31:56,160 --> 01:31:58,040
Speaker 5: you know, the story of the porn Wars is so

1747
01:31:58,280 --> 01:32:00,400
Speaker 5: fascinating and there's so many players so that I just

1748
01:32:00,439 --> 01:32:03,839
Speaker 5: couldn't even get to you know, so I really focused

1749
01:32:03,880 --> 01:32:06,040
Speaker 5: on how Miss, you know, what showed up in.

1750
01:32:06,120 --> 01:32:07,800
Speaker 4: The pages of Miss, and how can I go from there?

1751
01:32:08,720 --> 01:32:10,320
Speaker 5: But I think one of the things that does come

1752
01:32:10,400 --> 01:32:12,639
Speaker 5: up in part three is the story of Candy de Royale,

1753
01:32:12,680 --> 01:32:15,479
Speaker 5: who was one of the first feminist pornographers. She had

1754
01:32:15,520 --> 01:32:20,000
Speaker 5: this production company called Film Productions, and her her stuff

1755
01:32:20,080 --> 01:32:24,600
Speaker 5: is vintage in all the ways that vintage media can be.

1756
01:32:24,760 --> 01:32:28,160
Speaker 5: Lots of shag carpeting and stuff, and it's pretty funny.

1757
01:32:28,280 --> 01:32:31,599
Speaker 5: But what I didn't get into was like I wanted

1758
01:32:31,680 --> 01:32:34,400
Speaker 5: more of that project of feminist pornography, because I think

1759
01:32:34,439 --> 01:32:36,400
Speaker 5: it's like a provocation that's there, It's like a seed

1760
01:32:36,439 --> 01:32:39,040
Speaker 5: that's planted. But you know, for example, there was another

1761
01:32:39,280 --> 01:32:42,519
Speaker 5: magazine around the same time as Miss, called On Our Backs,

1762
01:32:43,000 --> 01:32:45,600
Speaker 5: which was a lesbian focused porn magazine. It was the

1763
01:32:45,760 --> 01:32:49,000
Speaker 5: very first of its time, and you know it was,

1764
01:32:50,000 --> 01:32:52,320
Speaker 5: and in fact, one of one of the images that

1765
01:32:52,720 --> 01:32:53,840
Speaker 5: ended up in On Our Backs is.

1766
01:32:53,880 --> 01:32:54,519
Speaker 4: In part three.

1767
01:32:55,080 --> 01:33:00,479
Speaker 5: But it was a really interesting and long stand, many

1768
01:33:00,560 --> 01:33:04,960
Speaker 5: many years underground magazine where women were able to center

1769
01:33:05,640 --> 01:33:10,160
Speaker 5: like you know, specifically queer erotica within and and and

1770
01:33:10,680 --> 01:33:14,479
Speaker 5: that is that's like another kind of feminist, it's another

1771
01:33:14,560 --> 01:33:17,240
Speaker 5: kind of miss in a way, right, So that story

1772
01:33:17,280 --> 01:33:19,360
Speaker 5: of Honor Bax magazine is really fascinating to me, but

1773
01:33:19,479 --> 01:33:22,560
Speaker 5: in general, like just wanting to show people that like this,

1774
01:33:22,920 --> 01:33:24,280
Speaker 5: this is an underground history.

1775
01:33:24,320 --> 01:33:26,760
Speaker 4: That's that I was just scratching the surface.

1776
01:33:26,439 --> 01:33:30,320
Speaker 1: Of Well, look it's fabulous, congratulations and by the time

1777
01:33:30,560 --> 01:33:32,919
Speaker 1: people are in this, this will already now be available.

1778
01:33:32,920 --> 01:33:36,080
Speaker 1: We're taping just before it's available on Max. We call

1779
01:33:36,120 --> 01:33:38,280
Speaker 1: it Max. What are we calling it now? It's back HBO?

1780
01:33:38,520 --> 01:33:39,200
Speaker 4: Call it HBO.

1781
01:33:39,520 --> 01:33:43,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know, go you'll figure it out. It's HBO,

1782
01:33:43,320 --> 01:33:46,639
Speaker 1: it's Max. But you know, we all know I still

1783
01:33:46,680 --> 01:33:48,840
Speaker 1: to this day, who thinks HBO is not the better brand.

1784
01:33:49,200 --> 01:33:52,439
Speaker 1: It's the better brand anyway, Go check it out at HBO.

1785
01:33:52,680 --> 01:33:55,880
Speaker 1: Cecilia Alice Selima, Congratulations, thank you for coming up.

1786
01:33:56,439 --> 01:33:57,760
Speaker 4: Thank you so much for having us.

1787
01:34:08,880 --> 01:34:10,840
Speaker 1: So I hope you enjoyed that conversation, and I hope

1788
01:34:10,880 --> 01:34:14,720
Speaker 1: you check out the doc I think, you know, if

1789
01:34:14,760 --> 01:34:16,880
Speaker 1: you're sort of out of something to watch, you finish

1790
01:34:16,960 --> 01:34:21,680
Speaker 1: the bear, check out this documentary in this magazine. All right,

1791
01:34:21,680 --> 01:34:23,519
Speaker 1: I want to do a little ass chuck. But before

1792
01:34:23,520 --> 01:34:27,200
Speaker 1: we get there. Right when I was getting ready to record,

1793
01:34:27,720 --> 01:34:34,160
Speaker 1: get some breaking news into the most important sports issue

1794
01:34:34,200 --> 01:34:36,719
Speaker 1: that I deal with in the summer, and that's Nationals baseball,

1795
01:34:37,400 --> 01:34:41,599
Speaker 1: they announced, after losing, after getting swept by the Red

1796
01:34:41,640 --> 01:34:44,360
Speaker 1: Sox over fourth of July weekend, that they are firing

1797
01:34:44,400 --> 01:34:46,960
Speaker 1: the manager, Davey Martinez, and firing the GM as well,

1798
01:34:47,000 --> 01:34:50,360
Speaker 1: Mike Grizzo. Now the timing to fire the entire front

1799
01:34:50,400 --> 01:34:52,400
Speaker 1: office six days before the draft where the Nats have

1800
01:34:52,400 --> 01:34:55,960
Speaker 1: the number one pick, it does that's an interesting at

1801
01:34:56,000 --> 01:34:58,559
Speaker 1: this point, What are you thinking to do both right away?

1802
01:34:58,560 --> 01:35:02,000
Speaker 1: I understand the Davy move. I can't wait for more

1803
01:35:02,040 --> 01:35:04,759
Speaker 1: reporting on this one, but something tells me Rizzo wouldn't.

1804
01:35:05,120 --> 01:35:07,519
Speaker 1: My guess is Rizzo was told the fire Davy, and

1805
01:35:07,560 --> 01:35:09,960
Speaker 1: he wouldn't do it, and so they were both fired together,

1806
01:35:11,080 --> 01:35:13,639
Speaker 1: which is admirable. On one hand of Rizzo, I think Rizzo. Look,

1807
01:35:14,040 --> 01:35:17,120
Speaker 1: I'm a Davy guy and I'm a Rizzo guy. I

1808
01:35:17,120 --> 01:35:20,439
Speaker 1: think Rizzo did a lot with terrible ownership, who didn't

1809
01:35:20,439 --> 01:35:22,479
Speaker 1: who tied his hands all the time as a GM.

1810
01:35:22,920 --> 01:35:25,800
Speaker 1: And I think Davey was a terrific manager. I do

1811
01:35:26,040 --> 01:35:29,840
Speaker 1: think that his frustration and trashing the players. I know

1812
01:35:30,160 --> 01:35:32,080
Speaker 1: he didn't mean it to come across the way he did,

1813
01:35:32,280 --> 01:35:34,400
Speaker 1: but it's possible he lost the clubhouse. And it doesn't

1814
01:35:34,400 --> 01:35:36,080
Speaker 1: matter how good of a manager we are, you lose

1815
01:35:36,120 --> 01:35:38,840
Speaker 1: the clubhouse. Here's the thing, David Martinez is going to

1816
01:35:38,840 --> 01:35:41,880
Speaker 1: be a manager again, because when you have a World

1817
01:35:41,960 --> 01:35:45,599
Speaker 1: Series ring and you're you're going to get another chance,

1818
01:35:46,040 --> 01:35:49,480
Speaker 1: and you'll deserve another chance. And I like Davey Martinez.

1819
01:35:49,479 --> 01:35:52,040
Speaker 1: I know him a little bit. I don't text with him,

1820
01:35:52,080 --> 01:35:54,120
Speaker 1: so I don't know him. We're not text friends. Okay,

1821
01:35:54,240 --> 01:35:57,400
Speaker 1: there's levels, right, people you know a little bit, people

1822
01:35:57,479 --> 01:35:59,840
Speaker 1: you text with, and then your actual friends. So he's

1823
01:36:00,240 --> 01:36:03,640
Speaker 1: somebody I know a little bit. I think he's a

1824
01:36:03,720 --> 01:36:06,760
Speaker 1: good guy. He's like a good I think, a motivator

1825
01:36:07,640 --> 01:36:12,479
Speaker 1: of men. You know, he really look every coach knows

1826
01:36:12,560 --> 01:36:15,080
Speaker 1: one game at a time, you know, But there was

1827
01:36:15,160 --> 01:36:17,519
Speaker 1: nothing like during the World Series year. Let's go one

1828
01:36:17,560 --> 01:36:20,040
Speaker 1: to know today. That's just a great second. Taking the

1829
01:36:20,120 --> 01:36:22,240
Speaker 1: Ani Banks is and let's play two. Let's go one

1830
01:36:22,320 --> 01:36:26,840
Speaker 1: to know today. And it's one of my favorite debut davisms.

1831
01:36:26,840 --> 01:36:29,320
Speaker 1: If you will, every day you should wake up and say, hey,

1832
01:36:29,400 --> 01:36:32,000
Speaker 1: let's go one to know today. Right, Let's win today

1833
01:36:32,040 --> 01:36:35,519
Speaker 1: and we'll worry about tomorrow and try to forget yesterday.

1834
01:36:37,160 --> 01:36:40,120
Speaker 1: But look, this was necessary and at least sends a

1835
01:36:40,160 --> 01:36:42,360
Speaker 1: signal that maybe the owners care what the fans think,

1836
01:36:42,840 --> 01:36:45,240
Speaker 1: because it's frustrating me a Nats fan. Right now, there

1837
01:36:45,320 --> 01:36:46,800
Speaker 1: is no doubt about it, all right, I just thought

1838
01:36:46,800 --> 01:36:48,200
Speaker 1: I would get that at I know some of you

1839
01:36:48,360 --> 01:36:50,240
Speaker 1: might care, but I think I'm very happy. I think

1840
01:36:50,280 --> 01:36:52,920
Speaker 1: James Wood's gonna win the home run derby. Right. The

1841
01:36:53,040 --> 01:36:55,600
Speaker 1: ability to go opposite the guys who know how to

1842
01:36:55,680 --> 01:36:58,120
Speaker 1: hit home runs opposite field always have an advantage in

1843
01:36:58,160 --> 01:37:00,880
Speaker 1: these home run derby So I know I'm a love

1844
01:37:00,960 --> 01:37:04,519
Speaker 1: the guy telling you he's got all the tools in

1845
01:37:04,600 --> 01:37:07,040
Speaker 1: the world to be the guy that wins this thing.

1846
01:37:07,439 --> 01:37:11,280
Speaker 1: Consistent swing, everything pops off so easily with him. Now,

1847
01:37:11,600 --> 01:37:14,800
Speaker 1: I know Kyle Rawley deserves all this attention. Man, what

1848
01:37:14,920 --> 01:37:17,760
Speaker 1: he's doing is unbelievable for a catcher, as well as

1849
01:37:17,800 --> 01:37:20,400
Speaker 1: being an amazing catcher. So I take nothing away from it,

1850
01:37:20,840 --> 01:37:22,360
Speaker 1: but keep an eye on my boy James Wood. It's

1851
01:37:22,360 --> 01:37:23,560
Speaker 1: gonna be a lot of fun to watch him in

1852
01:37:23,560 --> 01:37:25,680
Speaker 1: the home run dery. All right, let's get to a

1853
01:37:25,760 --> 01:37:34,760
Speaker 1: little ass. Chuck ask Chuck. All right, so let's get

1854
01:37:34,840 --> 01:37:37,960
Speaker 1: to the first question comes from alex In from Chapel Hill,

1855
01:37:38,800 --> 01:37:43,800
Speaker 1: North Carolina. Uh go, Tarios, Hi there. I love your show.

1856
01:37:43,800 --> 01:37:45,360
Speaker 1: I'm a longtime listener and love that you are now

1857
01:37:45,400 --> 01:37:48,400
Speaker 1: an independent and beholden not beholden to any network. My

1858
01:37:48,479 --> 01:37:50,719
Speaker 1: question is this. I hear frequent rumblings about our country

1859
01:37:50,800 --> 01:37:52,719
Speaker 1: being ripe for a civil war. If that were the case,

1860
01:37:53,120 --> 01:37:54,920
Speaker 1: what do you think the sides would be. My best

1861
01:37:54,960 --> 01:37:57,600
Speaker 1: guess is it would between the rich haves and the

1862
01:37:57,720 --> 01:38:01,439
Speaker 1: have nots, pitchforks, what say you? Well, you know it's

1863
01:38:01,760 --> 01:38:04,120
Speaker 1: what you are getting at here, And I don't you know.

1864
01:38:04,200 --> 01:38:05,839
Speaker 1: I think we've been in a bit of a cultural

1865
01:38:06,000 --> 01:38:08,800
Speaker 1: cold civil war, if you will, right, you know what

1866
01:38:08,880 --> 01:38:11,840
Speaker 1: I mean by cold civil war? We're sort of we

1867
01:38:12,560 --> 01:38:15,280
Speaker 1: do these things right? You have you know laws that

1868
01:38:15,360 --> 01:38:17,600
Speaker 1: the state of Florida might pass or you know, the

1869
01:38:18,160 --> 01:38:21,240
Speaker 1: creation of this alligator Alcatraz, right, they absurd. The fact

1870
01:38:21,280 --> 01:38:24,240
Speaker 1: that they're more worried about merchandise and signage than they

1871
01:38:24,280 --> 01:38:28,839
Speaker 1: are the actual care and maintenance of the facility itself,

1872
01:38:28,920 --> 01:38:31,400
Speaker 1: I think tells you that that's sort of part of

1873
01:38:31,439 --> 01:38:34,000
Speaker 1: the Shenanigans of what a cold civil war might look

1874
01:38:34,120 --> 01:38:38,000
Speaker 1: like on that front. But the other thing is is

1875
01:38:38,080 --> 01:38:40,880
Speaker 1: sort of this phenomenon right where you know, in the

1876
01:38:40,960 --> 01:38:45,320
Speaker 1: nineteenth century, the state was your culture. Right, where you

1877
01:38:45,439 --> 01:38:47,720
Speaker 1: lived in a state was definitional of culture. Now it

1878
01:38:47,800 --> 01:38:49,519
Speaker 1: really is in sort of a type of community you

1879
01:38:49,600 --> 01:38:56,440
Speaker 1: live in, right, rural, urban, suburban, close in suburbs, exurbs.

1880
01:38:56,520 --> 01:38:56,640
Speaker 5: Right.

1881
01:38:57,360 --> 01:39:00,600
Speaker 1: The point is, if you live in it, you have

1882
01:39:00,720 --> 01:39:02,680
Speaker 1: more in common with somebody that lives in Milwaukee than

1883
01:39:02,840 --> 01:39:06,200
Speaker 1: somebody that lives in Northwest Georgia, which is Marjorie Taylor

1884
01:39:06,200 --> 01:39:10,400
Speaker 1: Green's district. I'm talking culturally. So when you talk about so,

1885
01:39:10,560 --> 01:39:13,080
Speaker 1: let's say the civil this civil war breaks the way

1886
01:39:13,120 --> 01:39:16,800
Speaker 1: you think like in a place like Georgia, everything would

1887
01:39:16,840 --> 01:39:19,479
Speaker 1: be internal, right, it would be the cities versus rural.

1888
01:39:19,560 --> 01:39:22,439
Speaker 1: If you're gonna, if you're truly going to see look

1889
01:39:22,479 --> 01:39:24,559
Speaker 1: at it, that way, and and this has always been

1890
01:39:24,640 --> 01:39:27,680
Speaker 1: my concern about what's happening in rural America, and and

1891
01:39:27,880 --> 01:39:30,160
Speaker 1: and the in some ways urban America is a bit

1892
01:39:30,240 --> 01:39:33,640
Speaker 1: more bipartisan than rural America is. And when you have

1893
01:39:33,840 --> 01:39:35,680
Speaker 1: sort of that one sidedness, and then you have a

1894
01:39:35,760 --> 01:39:39,880
Speaker 1: misinformation problem that we have and the social media algorithms

1895
01:39:39,920 --> 01:39:42,600
Speaker 1: that sort of exploit the problem. Uh, and pray on

1896
01:39:42,880 --> 01:39:46,880
Speaker 1: and pray on this divide, you do sort of get

1897
01:39:46,960 --> 01:39:49,720
Speaker 1: these that this this I understand this sphere. I do

1898
01:39:49,880 --> 01:39:52,560
Speaker 1: believe the more online you are, the more likely you

1899
01:39:52,720 --> 01:39:55,479
Speaker 1: fear a civil war. The less online you are, the

1900
01:39:55,560 --> 01:39:59,639
Speaker 1: more you realize this may be just a harsh political moment,

1901
01:40:00,040 --> 01:40:02,680
Speaker 1: but a divide that we'll get through. I fall on

1902
01:40:02,760 --> 01:40:04,680
Speaker 1: the side of we've been here before, We'll get through this.

1903
01:40:05,320 --> 01:40:08,640
Speaker 1: We've had some tough divides in the nineteen fifties, in

1904
01:40:08,680 --> 01:40:12,439
Speaker 1: the nineteen sixties, we had it in the nineteen thirties,

1905
01:40:12,560 --> 01:40:15,960
Speaker 1: we had it in the eighteen seventies, in the eighteen eighties,

1906
01:40:16,000 --> 01:40:17,880
Speaker 1: and the eighteen nineties just after the Civil War. And

1907
01:40:18,040 --> 01:40:20,240
Speaker 1: we have figured out how to do this without breaking

1908
01:40:20,280 --> 01:40:23,000
Speaker 1: into violence. I'd like to think we will do be

1909
01:40:23,120 --> 01:40:27,200
Speaker 1: able to It's hard, and I'm not gonna I was

1910
01:40:27,240 --> 01:40:28,840
Speaker 1: about to make a I don't think there are many

1911
01:40:28,880 --> 01:40:32,200
Speaker 1: countries out there that have survived two civil wars, so

1912
01:40:32,840 --> 01:40:34,200
Speaker 1: I don't think it's a good thing. I don't know

1913
01:40:34,240 --> 01:40:37,599
Speaker 1: if the second Civil Wars it means that this republic stance.

1914
01:40:38,200 --> 01:40:43,920
Speaker 1: So I understand why you asked the question. I really

1915
01:40:44,000 --> 01:40:47,960
Speaker 1: believe this is if you the more time you spend online,

1916
01:40:47,960 --> 01:40:49,880
Speaker 1: the more concerned you are in this because the online

1917
01:40:49,920 --> 01:40:56,160
Speaker 1: world is so binary, and it highlights the right highlights

1918
01:40:56,280 --> 01:40:59,320
Speaker 1: the worst things that they hear on the left, and

1919
01:40:59,360 --> 01:41:01,280
Speaker 1: the left highlight it's the worst versions of what they

1920
01:41:01,360 --> 01:41:04,680
Speaker 1: hear on the right, and then each side applies it

1921
01:41:04,760 --> 01:41:07,120
Speaker 1: to everybody that's in that group. And I think the

1922
01:41:07,200 --> 01:41:10,000
Speaker 1: online world does it more aggressively, and it's why I

1923
01:41:10,040 --> 01:41:11,920
Speaker 1: think people that are online are more worried about this

1924
01:41:12,000 --> 01:41:13,960
Speaker 1: than people that live in the real world. Trust me,

1925
01:41:14,680 --> 01:41:17,400
Speaker 1: I travel inside of red America, blue America, purple American,

1926
01:41:17,439 --> 01:41:22,320
Speaker 1: you name it, everybody's still I get the impression in

1927
01:41:22,400 --> 01:41:27,679
Speaker 1: real life people are still Americans before anything else. Next

1928
01:41:27,760 --> 01:41:31,120
Speaker 1: question comes from DNH parts of note, Hey, Chuck Love

1929
01:41:31,160 --> 01:41:34,200
Speaker 1: the podcast. You talk often about how the possibility the

1930
01:41:34,320 --> 01:41:36,560
Speaker 1: US may be on the road to a kleptocracy, with

1931
01:41:36,640 --> 01:41:40,120
Speaker 1: the next step being authoritarianism. I was curious about Harden

1932
01:41:41,360 --> 01:41:45,200
Speaker 1: about hardens like for citizens of these countries and found

1933
01:41:45,240 --> 01:41:47,599
Speaker 1: a link that said the majority of Russian people are happy,

1934
01:41:48,000 --> 01:41:50,479
Speaker 1: no doubt, because they do not have accurate news. This

1935
01:41:50,600 --> 01:41:52,320
Speaker 1: made me wonder if you could spend a few minutes

1936
01:41:52,360 --> 01:41:54,960
Speaker 1: discussing what life looks like for ordinary citizens in other

1937
01:41:55,000 --> 01:41:58,920
Speaker 1: countries under these kleptocracies and authoritarian regimes, perhaps a glimpse

1938
01:41:58,960 --> 01:42:01,519
Speaker 1: of what could become. Thanks teen h. Well, look, I

1939
01:42:01,600 --> 01:42:04,400
Speaker 1: have spent some time in these countries that are sort

1940
01:42:04,400 --> 01:42:07,320
Speaker 1: of on the fringe of full at authoritarianism or have

1941
01:42:07,400 --> 01:42:13,000
Speaker 1: slipt over. And whether it's Russia, whether it's Turkey, whether

1942
01:42:13,160 --> 01:42:17,320
Speaker 1: it's Cuba, those are the three best examples I've experienced

1943
01:42:18,280 --> 01:42:22,519
Speaker 1: personally and visited. And the thing is is that what

1944
01:42:22,680 --> 01:42:25,479
Speaker 1: the surveys say is one thing, because that is for

1945
01:42:25,760 --> 01:42:30,439
Speaker 1: public consumption. What's remarkable is actually how well informed the

1946
01:42:30,479 --> 01:42:34,360
Speaker 1: public is about what's going on, and the fact that

1947
01:42:34,439 --> 01:42:37,600
Speaker 1: they have to whisper it. They see a Westerner or

1948
01:42:37,600 --> 01:42:40,320
Speaker 1: an American journalist or an American of any kind and

1949
01:42:40,439 --> 01:42:43,160
Speaker 1: they want to talk, but then they literally, I'll never

1950
01:42:43,240 --> 01:42:48,040
Speaker 1: forget being in Cuba and literally you're whispering this conversation

1951
01:42:48,160 --> 01:42:50,960
Speaker 1: and he's looking over. You could see the minders on

1952
01:42:51,040 --> 01:42:55,080
Speaker 1: the street. These people were fully exposed, and it would

1953
01:42:55,120 --> 01:43:00,479
Speaker 1: be like not now or it was always year that

1954
01:43:00,600 --> 01:43:05,160
Speaker 1: somebody was listening, And I think that that's that's that

1955
01:43:05,400 --> 01:43:07,600
Speaker 1: is something and and sort of then you go to

1956
01:43:07,680 --> 01:43:11,920
Speaker 1: a place like Mexico, which is got a little bit

1957
01:43:12,320 --> 01:43:16,760
Speaker 1: its democracy has slipped. Everybody knows that everything is to

1958
01:43:16,800 --> 01:43:19,519
Speaker 1: pay to play, and it's just common knowledge. Well, this

1959
01:43:19,600 --> 01:43:22,360
Speaker 1: is is just how it works. So while I wouldn't

1960
01:43:22,360 --> 01:43:24,559
Speaker 1: put in Mexico obviously in the same categories as Turkey

1961
01:43:24,640 --> 01:43:31,080
Speaker 1: and Russia and Cuba, but the answer is the same

1962
01:43:31,280 --> 01:43:33,160
Speaker 1: in many of these places where if you want to

1963
01:43:33,160 --> 01:43:36,160
Speaker 1: get something done, you have to pay. And then when

1964
01:43:36,200 --> 01:43:40,600
Speaker 1: that is the norm of how those with money I

1965
01:43:40,720 --> 01:43:43,240
Speaker 1: do business. And by the way, it feels like it's

1966
01:43:43,320 --> 01:43:47,519
Speaker 1: becoming more and more common here, that to me, that's

1967
01:43:47,560 --> 01:43:51,080
Speaker 1: your step. So look, I that's why I've sounded this

1968
01:43:51,200 --> 01:43:55,600
Speaker 1: alarm in that I've seen this up close history shown us. Oh,

1969
01:43:55,680 --> 01:44:01,760
Speaker 1: by the way, the rural urban split is another problem. Thenezuela.

1970
01:44:02,560 --> 01:44:07,720
Speaker 1: You know, a right wing movement. Authoritarian movement. Actually, this

1971
01:44:07,760 --> 01:44:13,320
Speaker 1: one was a left wing authoritarian movement. Essentially exploited the

1972
01:44:13,400 --> 01:44:16,479
Speaker 1: rural parts, the rural working poor, got them spun up

1973
01:44:16,479 --> 01:44:18,759
Speaker 1: and angry at the elites, blamed everything on the elites,

1974
01:44:18,840 --> 01:44:22,000
Speaker 1: and then ended up with an authoritarian regime. It was

1975
01:44:22,040 --> 01:44:24,599
Speaker 1: a bit more right wing in a place like Turkey,

1976
01:44:26,080 --> 01:44:29,880
Speaker 1: using religious conservative religion as a way to try to

1977
01:44:29,960 --> 01:44:35,200
Speaker 1: weaponize and consolidate the rural parts of Turkey and essentially

1978
01:44:35,400 --> 01:44:41,040
Speaker 1: campaign against the elites of Istanbul. So it is these

1979
01:44:41,080 --> 01:44:46,160
Speaker 1: are this is I sound the alarm because you know,

1980
01:44:46,240 --> 01:44:48,719
Speaker 1: we sometimes have an arrogance that you know, we're different

1981
01:44:48,760 --> 01:44:52,080
Speaker 1: than everybody else, and no we're not. Human nature is

1982
01:44:52,120 --> 01:44:57,000
Speaker 1: not different in America as opposed to anywhere else. Brent

1983
01:44:57,160 --> 01:45:01,000
Speaker 1: In in St. Paul, This is the last question. Gone

1984
01:45:01,040 --> 01:45:02,880
Speaker 1: a bit here. I'll save some more for later in

1985
01:45:02,920 --> 01:45:05,559
Speaker 1: the week. Chuck, I might be the last person standing

1986
01:45:05,880 --> 01:45:08,519
Speaker 1: who still likes to get the news from the mainstream media,

1987
01:45:08,920 --> 01:45:10,519
Speaker 1: but they really seem to be dropping the ball when

1988
01:45:10,560 --> 01:45:12,640
Speaker 1: it comes to coverage of the conflict between Rwanda and

1989
01:45:12,680 --> 01:45:15,640
Speaker 1: the Congo fairpoint one hundred percent. I've been able to

1990
01:45:15,680 --> 01:45:18,240
Speaker 1: stitch together some background using YouTube sources that seemed to

1991
01:45:18,240 --> 01:45:21,120
Speaker 1: pass all of my reliability tests, But I sure wish

1992
01:45:21,200 --> 01:45:23,519
Speaker 1: my nightly news broadcast could do some of that work

1993
01:45:23,600 --> 01:45:25,240
Speaker 1: for me. So I guess my question is why is

1994
01:45:25,240 --> 01:45:28,240
Speaker 1: Africa coverage so bad? Surely CNN could dedicate some time

1995
01:45:29,040 --> 01:45:31,679
Speaker 1: from its ditty coverage to throw to an international reporter

1996
01:45:31,760 --> 01:45:34,160
Speaker 1: once in a while. And what did Trump actually do

1997
01:45:34,280 --> 01:45:36,599
Speaker 1: that makes him think he should get a Nobel Peace Prize. PS.

1998
01:45:36,600 --> 01:45:38,400
Speaker 1: I'm a huge fan. Love the work you're doing on

1999
01:45:38,439 --> 01:45:40,600
Speaker 1: behalf of the media ecosystem from the local level up.

2000
01:45:40,800 --> 01:45:42,960
Speaker 1: And as a side note, I think you're onto something

2001
01:45:43,040 --> 01:45:45,640
Speaker 1: with high school sports being a key building block. I

2002
01:45:45,760 --> 01:45:48,280
Speaker 1: live in Saint Paul and during the George Floyd protests,

2003
01:45:48,320 --> 01:45:51,200
Speaker 1: are best on the ground reporter was Mike Max, the

2004
01:45:51,280 --> 01:45:55,000
Speaker 1: local CBS sports guy. People both at the protests and

2005
01:45:55,120 --> 01:45:58,519
Speaker 1: at home trusted him because of the positive stories he

2006
01:45:58,560 --> 01:46:01,880
Speaker 1: had done on their teams. If you are looking for

2007
01:46:02,000 --> 01:46:04,720
Speaker 1: a good interview, you should reach out to him. I

2008
01:46:04,800 --> 01:46:08,800
Speaker 1: really appreciate that. That's a nice uh uh compliment. I

2009
01:46:08,880 --> 01:46:12,280
Speaker 1: appreciate you paying attention to that, and all you're doing

2010
01:46:12,400 --> 01:46:15,439
Speaker 1: is reinforcing my belief that that the way to rebuild

2011
01:46:15,520 --> 01:46:18,759
Speaker 1: community trust is starting a place that is a political

2012
01:46:18,880 --> 01:46:22,519
Speaker 1: not political, which is the sports world on that front.

2013
01:46:22,600 --> 01:46:25,679
Speaker 1: But to get at your the first part of your question,

2014
01:46:27,080 --> 01:46:29,839
Speaker 1: there's nobody wants to spend the money to put reporters

2015
01:46:30,200 --> 01:46:34,920
Speaker 1: in these hot spots cost money, it's dangerous, and there's

2016
01:46:35,160 --> 01:46:38,639
Speaker 1: there's there's more and more of these mainstream media outlets

2017
01:46:39,240 --> 01:46:43,840
Speaker 1: who are answering to corporate bosses who have to everything

2018
01:46:43,880 --> 01:46:47,160
Speaker 1: is bottom line, bottom line, bottom line. So look, this

2019
01:46:47,360 --> 01:46:49,640
Speaker 1: is why I'm excited. I'm going to use this as

2020
01:46:49,640 --> 01:46:53,000
Speaker 1: a chance to plug Newsphere, the news fere app N

2021
01:46:53,040 --> 01:46:56,920
Speaker 1: O O S S P H E r E. Because

2022
01:46:57,000 --> 01:46:59,400
Speaker 1: Newsphere is a collection of independent A lot of them

2023
01:46:59,400 --> 01:47:02,840
Speaker 1: are international journalists who've the mainstream media used to employ,

2024
01:47:03,720 --> 01:47:06,720
Speaker 1: who are in these hotspot do terrific work. But you know,

2025
01:47:06,920 --> 01:47:08,840
Speaker 1: I look, I saw it in my time at NBC.

2026
01:47:09,040 --> 01:47:12,840
Speaker 1: Every year we were cutting back our international footprint. You know,

2027
01:47:12,960 --> 01:47:18,760
Speaker 1: we went from bureaus to fixers to stringers and it

2028
01:47:18,960 --> 01:47:21,720
Speaker 1: and it keeps sort of shrinking, and you you know,

2029
01:47:21,880 --> 01:47:24,400
Speaker 1: we've these got these stringers, These fixers that we would

2030
01:47:24,520 --> 01:47:26,720
Speaker 1: be partners with were terrific, but they would also have

2031
01:47:26,920 --> 01:47:29,280
Speaker 1: four or five other media companies in the English speaking

2032
01:47:29,320 --> 01:47:31,519
Speaker 1: world that they were also partners with. So somebody that

2033
01:47:31,680 --> 01:47:34,040
Speaker 1: NBC works with was also working with somebody in Canada,

2034
01:47:34,080 --> 01:47:37,479
Speaker 1: and somebody in Australia, somebody perhaps in Japan. So you know,

2035
01:47:37,600 --> 01:47:42,200
Speaker 1: think it's so it's it's not just an American phenomenon, right,

2036
01:47:42,240 --> 01:47:45,639
Speaker 1: You're seeing more and more of this, and and then

2037
01:47:47,400 --> 01:47:50,160
Speaker 1: here's what happens, right, they justified not having these full

2038
01:47:50,200 --> 01:47:52,240
Speaker 1: time folks as well. There's safety issues and we're not

2039
01:47:52,280 --> 01:47:54,680
Speaker 1: going to use this a lot. There's not a lot

2040
01:47:54,720 --> 01:47:59,360
Speaker 1: of interests, so and so you throw all those factors

2041
01:47:59,400 --> 01:48:02,600
Speaker 1: together and that's what you get. This to me is

2042
01:48:02,600 --> 01:48:04,760
Speaker 1: a shame because actually it's never been easier to cover

2043
01:48:04,880 --> 01:48:08,400
Speaker 1: the world. We don't need satellites anymore and you just

2044
01:48:09,000 --> 01:48:11,519
Speaker 1: pop up a phone and that's what makes newsphere. I

2045
01:48:11,600 --> 01:48:13,960
Speaker 1: think the future of this, and I think the future

2046
01:48:13,960 --> 01:48:18,559
Speaker 1: of international coverage is going to be these freelance journalists

2047
01:48:18,920 --> 01:48:22,679
Speaker 1: that I'm partners with uh in Newsphere who are there

2048
01:48:22,960 --> 01:48:26,160
Speaker 1: there hopefully you know again, I get it. You you

2049
01:48:26,240 --> 01:48:29,000
Speaker 1: wish the nightly news, so do I. I think you

2050
01:48:29,040 --> 01:48:31,080
Speaker 1: and I would both send Richard Engle in there for

2051
01:48:31,120 --> 01:48:33,840
Speaker 1: a couple of weeks and they still might. My friends

2052
01:48:33,840 --> 01:48:36,240
Speaker 1: at NBC, I mean that, you know, Richard Engle can

2053
01:48:36,439 --> 01:48:38,960
Speaker 1: can sometimes convince them to do this, right, you can

2054
01:48:39,040 --> 01:48:42,240
Speaker 1: get a reporter can sometimes convince somebody to do it.

2055
01:48:42,360 --> 01:48:46,080
Speaker 1: But that's what it takes. And these days, right these

2056
01:48:46,120 --> 01:48:49,280
Speaker 1: budget these budget crunches are so tight, and so I

2057
01:48:49,520 --> 01:48:56,840
Speaker 1: understand why it ends up getting cut. But it you know,

2058
01:48:57,680 --> 01:48:59,560
Speaker 1: this is a case where trees are going to you know,

2059
01:48:59,640 --> 01:49:01,880
Speaker 1: civil wars are going to start and nobody's there to

2060
01:49:02,080 --> 01:49:03,680
Speaker 1: chronicle them. And then we're going to wake up one

2061
01:49:03,720 --> 01:49:05,519
Speaker 1: May and go, did you know that two million people

2062
01:49:05,600 --> 01:49:10,479
Speaker 1: are dead in the Congo? And how come nobody paid attention?

2063
01:49:12,000 --> 01:49:15,720
Speaker 1: So it is it is, you know, so I want

2064
01:49:15,720 --> 01:49:18,160
Speaker 1: to plug plug Newsphere. I mean, this is this is

2065
01:49:18,240 --> 01:49:22,599
Speaker 1: the whole that we're We think that Newspere is probably

2066
01:49:22,640 --> 01:49:26,519
Speaker 1: best capable of filling it first. And it's terrific. Right now,

2067
01:49:26,560 --> 01:49:28,599
Speaker 1: they're covering all of these hot spots, all of these

2068
01:49:29,120 --> 01:49:31,920
Speaker 1: war torn areas, better than than than many of these

2069
01:49:31,960 --> 01:49:35,120
Speaker 1: other places. It's started by my friend Jane Ferguson, who's

2070
01:49:35,160 --> 01:49:38,919
Speaker 1: an international correspondent for PBS News Hour, so she knows firsthand.

2071
01:49:39,000 --> 01:49:41,120
Speaker 1: She's been on the front lines. This is her, you know.

2072
01:49:41,240 --> 01:49:44,040
Speaker 1: This is you know the way I'm obsessive about political

2073
01:49:44,120 --> 01:49:47,360
Speaker 1: campaigns and domestic American politics. This is how much she

2074
01:49:47,439 --> 01:49:50,920
Speaker 1: cares about these stories around the world and fights for

2075
01:49:51,000 --> 01:49:53,439
Speaker 1: freedom around the world. So uh, I hope you will

2076
01:49:53,439 --> 01:49:58,080
Speaker 1: give that chance. But look, money, it's all you know.

2077
01:49:58,240 --> 01:50:00,280
Speaker 1: The answer to all your questions is my friend, mister

2078
01:50:00,320 --> 01:50:05,400
Speaker 1: Cornisher likes to say, is always money, all right. So

2079
01:50:05,560 --> 01:50:09,519
Speaker 1: with that, I'm gonna take a take a forty eight

2080
01:50:09,560 --> 01:50:12,840
Speaker 1: hour break until the next time we drop, and from

2081
01:50:12,880 --> 01:50:15,240
Speaker 1: there I'll see you then until we upload again.