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Speaker 1: Hey, guys, ready or not, twenty twenty four is here

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Speaker 1: and we here at breaking points, are already thinking of

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Speaker 1: ways we can up our game for this critical election.

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Speaker 2: We rely on our premium subs to expand coverage, upgrade

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Speaker 2: the studio ad staff, give you, guys, the best independent.

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Speaker 3: Coverage that is possible.

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Speaker 2: If you like what we're all about, it just means

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Speaker 2: the absolute world to have your support. But enough with that,

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Speaker 2: let's get to the show. Good morning, everybody, Happy Monday.

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Speaker 2: We have an amazing show for everybody today.

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Speaker 4: When do we have.

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Speaker 1: Crystal indeed we do. We got a lot of breaking

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Speaker 1: news with regards to Israel. So, first of all, Benny

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Speaker 1: Gantz is out of the government of that war cabinet.

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Speaker 1: He announced that he is pressuring for a ceasefire deal.

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Speaker 1: We've got Tony Blincoln who is there in the region

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Speaker 1: as well, So a lot to get to there and

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Speaker 1: what that could mean. We have four Israeli hostages rescued

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Speaker 1: and roughly one thousand Palestinians killed or injured in that

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Speaker 1: operation by the IDF, and some questions about American involvement,

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Speaker 1: So a lot to get to there. That's very consequential.

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Speaker 1: We have new polls outless some interesting insights into whether

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Speaker 1: or not Trump's convictions are going to matter, and then

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Speaker 1: whether or not people really care about them. Their beers

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Speaker 1: to basically be not so much. Very interesting things coming

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Speaker 1: out of Europe as well. They had the EO parliamentary elections,

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Speaker 1: and in particular in France and Germany, huge surge for

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Speaker 1: the far right. Macron Is announced snap elections, so that

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Speaker 1: is kind of fascinating. Sometimes that can be a canary

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Speaker 1: in the coal mine for our own politics that we

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Speaker 1: want to take a look at that. And we also

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Speaker 1: have Brianna Joy Gray fired by the Hill, needless to say,

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Speaker 1: Saga and I both have some thoughts and potential insights

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Speaker 1: there to share with you.

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Speaker 3: I never heard of it, Iver heard of.

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Speaker 1: It, former Hill refugees ourselves. We've got some thoughts about

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Speaker 1: what's going on there.

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Speaker 2: All right, that's right, Okay, Before we get to that,

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Speaker 2: we actually have a major story coming later today. We

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Speaker 2: weren't able to fit it in the show for timing

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Speaker 2: reasons from Ryan Grimm. We're going to be interviewing him

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Speaker 2: and he's to be breaking some major Supreme Court related news.

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Speaker 2: So everybody stay tuned on all of our channels. We

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Speaker 2: will be posting that and we'll email it out two

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Speaker 2: premium subscribers as well. But we are expecting this to

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Speaker 2: actually make some news and possibly picked up by the

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Speaker 2: mainstream press. So it's going to be a fun day

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Speaker 2: here at Breaking Points. We want to support our work

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Speaker 2: Breakingpoints dot com. We really appreciate it. But with that,

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Speaker 2: let's get to the Bennigans news.

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Speaker 1: All right, So Benny Gantz announced a press conference and

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Speaker 1: he made it official that he was leaving the war cabinet.

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Speaker 1: We've got a little bit of the coverage from Sky

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Speaker 1: Sky News, which has the advantage of being in English,

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Speaker 1: so let's stick go listen to a little bit of

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Speaker 1: what he had to say.

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Speaker 4: We can tell you that he is unhappy with the

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Speaker 4: apparent lack of a plan for after the war with Gaza.

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Speaker 4: He has been threatening to resign. He was going to

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Speaker 4: release a statement yesterday, but the news that those four

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Speaker 4: Israeli hostages have been rescued from Gaza. Nemative statement was

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Speaker 4: delayed until today, But in the last few moments he

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Speaker 4: has resigned from the Israeli war Cabinet. He says in Nettigna,

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Speaker 4: whose government political considerations are impeding strategic decisions in the

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Speaker 4: Gaza war. He also says that Benjamin Netanyah, who is

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Speaker 4: preventing real victory, we are leaving emergency government.

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Speaker 3: He says.

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Speaker 4: He also calls on Benjamin Netanyah, who to set an

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Speaker 4: agreed election date, and he's been calling on the defense minister.

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Speaker 4: You have Galant to be brave and do what is

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Speaker 4: right and presumably follow his lead by resigning from the

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Speaker 4: war cabinet.

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Speaker 1: There was also a major military official who just announced

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Speaker 1: his resignation as well, who was in charge of the

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Speaker 1: Gaza aryans. And I've basically failed on October seventh to

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Speaker 1: keep Israeli safe Benny Gance. As part of that press conference,

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Speaker 1: he also apologized to the hostage families and asked for

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Speaker 1: their forgiveness, saying, quote, we failed. The responsibility is also mine.

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Speaker 1: So you guys will recall the war cabinet is made

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Speaker 1: up of Yaho was Benny Kantz, and you of Galant,

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Speaker 1: now moderate in the Israeli context. Always keep in mind

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Speaker 1: none of these people are against the war. None of

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Speaker 1: them are quote unquote moderate. However, there are some differences

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Speaker 1: in terms of how they wanted to approach things. Gans

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Speaker 1: in particular, is more favorable towards the ceasefire deal that

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Speaker 1: has been floated by Joe Biden. You have Glant seems

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Speaker 1: to be more in that direction as well. Both of

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Speaker 1: them have been pushing for a plan for the quote

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Speaker 1: unquote day after. And so that's why Sager is really

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Speaker 1: noteworthy and also not surprising that he points in Nan

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Speaker 1: Yahoo and says, basically, you're putting politics first. You don't

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Speaker 1: actually care about the war, you don't care about the hostages,

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Speaker 1: you don't care about Israel, you care about your own

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Speaker 1: political survival. And Gance had previously issued an ultimatum basically saying, listen,

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Speaker 1: you need to call for elections. We need some sort

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Speaker 1: of concrete, workable plan for the quote unquote day after

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Speaker 1: in Gaza. Otherwise I'm leaving the war cabinet, And that,

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Speaker 1: in fact is what he has done. Now.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's really interesting.

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Speaker 2: Really, what it comes down to is the both domestic

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Speaker 2: political situation, but also Ganz is not an idiot. He

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Speaker 2: basically has the taskit backing of the United States, the

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Speaker 2: Biden government, the European Union.

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Speaker 3: He's not facing any international problems.

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Speaker 2: If Netta Nah Who goes away a he's likely going

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Speaker 2: to face a criminal trial for his own corruption allegations

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Speaker 2: that pre date long October seventh. But second, you know,

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Speaker 2: he's actually got to grapple with his political legacy. Just

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Speaker 2: to explain to people because it's a little bit confusing,

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Speaker 2: this does not actually bring down the nets On Yahu government.

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Speaker 2: His old coalition pre October seventh coalition still stands. He

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Speaker 2: has sixty four seat majority in the Israeli Parliament. The

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Speaker 2: question then comes to the shakiness of that the calling

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Speaker 2: for the election, and really the way I guess people

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Speaker 2: could think about it for historical context is when Clement

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Speaker 2: Attlee left the government of the Wartime Coalition after Britain

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Speaker 2: won the Second World War and they called for an

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Speaker 2: election and actually Churchill ended up being defeated, so possibly

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Speaker 2: there could be some parallels there. The point, though, is

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Speaker 2: just that the shakiness brings effectively domestic politics, as in

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Speaker 2: like Capital Pe politics back to the country of Israel,

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Speaker 2: which has been totally united on domestic front. Interestingly enough,

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Speaker 2: this is the only question is the timing of the

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Speaker 2: so called hostage mission because and we're going to get

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Speaker 2: to this, but it really affected Benny Gantz. He originally

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Speaker 2: had the speech on the books for withdrawing. The day

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Speaker 2: of the hostage release, he ended up having to cancel

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Speaker 2: a speech. But that is probably the single most popular

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Speaker 2: thing that Netanya, who has done since what since October seventh,

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Speaker 2: prior to that, the best thing that he possibly could

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Speaker 2: have done for his political futures. So this actually does

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Speaker 2: raise the question of maybe he could survive. It's certainly possible.

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Speaker 2: It's going to be a big question of both international politics,

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Speaker 2: how these really people themselves feel about it, and also

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Speaker 2: don't forget this, but Gance could still lose.

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Speaker 3: It's very very possible.

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Speaker 2: It could be that some liqued successor to Netsa naw

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Speaker 2: who are somebody who's like him, actually does end up

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Speaker 2: prevailing in intelection, none of the baggage, same hardline policy,

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Speaker 2: very very possible for the future.

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Speaker 1: So right after October seventh, both Benny Gantz and yay

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Speaker 1: Are Lapede, who is like the opposition leader, were approached

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Speaker 1: about joining this you know, temporary war cabinet government, and

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Speaker 1: Gants demanded that the far right, most far right Psychosmotrich

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Speaker 1: and ben Gevere were h They didn't have to be

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Speaker 1: pushed out of government entirely, but they couldn't be part

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Speaker 1: of the war cabinet, and Lapede had a more more

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Speaker 1: hardline position of these guys can't be involved in all

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Speaker 1: and that's my condition, and Nanna who said no, and

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Speaker 1: so yeah, you're Lapede remained outside of the war cabinet government.

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Speaker 1: I read a Haretz analysis that basically, you know, really said,

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Speaker 1: Benny Gantz has sort of propped up Netanyahu here, has

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Speaker 1: really given him a legitimacy that he didn't deserve, and

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Speaker 1: gave him a sort of grace with the public that

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Speaker 1: allowed him to persist in this role for this long. Now.

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Speaker 1: The counterside of that would be while Gants pressured for

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Speaker 1: you know, the original ceasefire deal that led to you know,

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Speaker 1: very brief pause in hostilities and the release of a

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Speaker 1: certain number of hostages, and perhaps if Gance hadn't been

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Speaker 1: in the war cabinet, maybe that wouldn't have happened. Perhaps,

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Speaker 1: but there were other pressures on NETANYAHUO at that point

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Speaker 1: as well. So that's some of the Israeli domestic debate,

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Speaker 1: to the extent that there's a moderate coalition in Israel.

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Speaker 1: They basically feel that Beny Gance stayed far too long

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Speaker 1: and perhaps shouldn't have ever taken part in this to

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Speaker 1: begin with. So, as I mentioned before in Sagio alluded to,

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Speaker 1: it can put us up on the screen Tony Blank

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Speaker 1: and State Department. Our Secretary of State will arrive in

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Speaker 1: Israel today and meet with Gance and Netan Yahoo. The

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Speaker 1: US is also pushing this supposedly Israeli cease fire deal

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Speaker 1: that of course now Israel is not willing to actually

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Speaker 1: back some resolution through the UN Security Council, so the

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Speaker 1: US is sort of working on pushing that through the

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Speaker 1: UN Security Council. There's a lot of questions over it

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Speaker 1: appears that the hostage deal isn't really moving anywhere anyway.

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Speaker 1: So I'm seeing all these headlines that are like Beny

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Speaker 1: Gance leaving the government complicates the hostage cease fire negotiations.

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Speaker 1: And I don't really know that that's the case, because

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Speaker 1: it doesn't appear that they're actually really moving anyway. So

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Speaker 1: if anything, maybe it shakes it up, maybe it shakes

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Speaker 1: something loose. I don't know. We can put this up

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Speaker 1: on the screen. Also about the domestic political reaction from

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Speaker 1: significant Israeli political figures. Netanyahu molds dissolving the war Cabinet,

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Speaker 1: Ben Gavier is demanding a seat at the table. We've

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Speaker 1: got Bibi putting out this strange tweet. In my opinion,

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Speaker 1: cryptic doesn't actually mention Benny Gance, but this is let's

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Speaker 1: clearly who's this is about. He says, Israel is in

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Speaker 1: an existential war on several fronts. My son, this is

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Speaker 1: not the time to abandon the campaign. This is the

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Speaker 1: time to join forces citizens of Israel. We will continue

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Speaker 1: until victory and the achievement of all the goals of

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Speaker 1: the war, primarily the release of all our hostages and

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Speaker 1: the elimination of Hamas. My door will remain open to

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Speaker 1: any Zionist party that is ready to get under the stretcher.

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Speaker 1: And this is by the way the Google translates, so

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Speaker 1: I don't know the reason it seems weird, might be

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Speaker 1: because of the Googol translation, but anyway, ready to get

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Speaker 1: under the stretcher and assist in bringing victory over our

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Speaker 1: enemies and ensuring the safety of our citizens. We've got

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Speaker 1: opposition leader Yayer Lapide saying Gansas and Eisenkott's decision will

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Speaker 1: leave the failed government is important and correct. The time

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Speaker 1: has come to replace this extreme and reckless government with

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Speaker 1: a sane government. That will lead to the return of

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Speaker 1: security to the citizens of Israel, the return of the hostages,

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Speaker 1: to the restoration of Israel's economy and international status. So

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Speaker 1: this is the primary opposition leader to Netnyaho. Of course,

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Speaker 1: he's very interested in elections sooner rather than later. And

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Speaker 1: then you have National Security Minister Itamar ben Gavir. Put

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Speaker 1: this next one up on the screen. He says, as

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Speaker 1: a minister in the government, chairman of a party, and

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Speaker 1: a senior partner in the coalition, I hereby demand to

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Speaker 1: join this cabinet in order to be a partner in

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Speaker 1: determining Israel's security policy in the current times. It's time

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Speaker 1: to make brave decisions. So one of the most psychotic

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Speaker 1: members of the Netnyahu coalition now asking to be included

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Speaker 1: in the war cabinet. At the same time, we can

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Speaker 1: put this up on the screen in terms of I

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Speaker 1: alluded to this before. Where we are with the ceasefire negotiations,

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Speaker 1: washing post headliness bye, Biden's urging ces fire deal shows

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Speaker 1: no progress. As I alluded to before, they're pushing this

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Speaker 1: UN Security Council resolution. Whether that gets through, whether that

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Speaker 1: makes a difference, I don't know. Seems kind of unlikely,

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Speaker 1: but they're reporting here, they say. More than a week

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Speaker 1: after President Biden declared a decisive moment in the eight

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Speaker 1: month Israel Gaza war and besieged both sides to quickly

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Speaker 1: approve a US back ceasefire deal, there is dwindling evidence

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Speaker 1: that either has bought what he is selling. Despite Biden's

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Speaker 1: personal and very public urging, his dispatch of senior administration

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Speaker 1: officials to the region, the drafting of a new UN

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Speaker 1: Security Council resolution, and the marshaling of allies to join

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Speaker 1: in a course of approval, neither Israel nor Hamas appear

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Speaker 1: to have budged on their wide divergence over the proposed

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Speaker 1: roadmap to permanently end the war in Gaza. Israel's successful

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Speaker 1: rescue forour hostages early Saturday, while welcomed my further complicated

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Speaker 1: administration efforts bolstering Prime Minister Ntnia, whose insistence on a

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Speaker 1: full military victory and release of all remaining Hamas led

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Speaker 1: hostages before Israel's guns are silenced. So the big divide

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Speaker 1: in terms of a ceasefire is basically Hamas once the

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Speaker 1: war to end in Israel bb Nagna, who does not

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Speaker 1: want the.

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Speaker 3: War to end.

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Speaker 1: So that has been a fairly unbridgeable divide for some

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Speaker 1: time now. Biden tried to put pressure on through this

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Speaker 1: big speech that he gave and you know, rhetoric effectively,

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Speaker 1: but Soger once again appears that he is set up

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Speaker 1: for a massive humiliation here because he's unwilling to actually

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Speaker 1: use the tools and levers that the US government has

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Speaker 1: outside of his own rhetoric, which clearly has been insufficient.

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Speaker 2: It reminds me a lot of the Obama administration's handling

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Speaker 2: of Syria. It was very similar. It was very haphazard.

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Speaker 2: It was all over the place. They would try inspect ceasefires,

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Speaker 2: they'd try and inspect grand bargains. At the same time

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Speaker 2: we had our own radical what were they called moderate

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Speaker 2: rebel policy.

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Speaker 3: It was just like a failure.

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Speaker 2: Oh but also Asad can't use chemic weapons, but also

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Speaker 2: if he does, maybe, but also maybe he didn't. It's

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Speaker 2: just it's a like a just complete incompetence. And that

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Speaker 2: really is a lot of the same characters are involved, literally,

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Speaker 2: Brett McGirk and others who are the ones jet setting.

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Speaker 2: Anthony Blincoln was in the State Department at that time,

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Speaker 2: and they seem to just re recreating that policy. They're

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Speaker 2: banking everything on this ceasefire agreement, which neither side particularly

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Speaker 2: seems like they want to do, and they also are

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Speaker 2: banking everything on this very bizarre Saudi normalization deal. Arguably,

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Speaker 2: that Saudi deal is going to be the most important

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Speaker 2: thing that could come out of this, because they're effectively

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Speaker 2: going to give the Saudi is an extension of non

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Speaker 2: NATO major ally status and security guarantee the entire country,

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Speaker 2: which is insane, just so everybody understands, and change of

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Speaker 2: our policy to the region almost dramatically escalates, you know,

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Speaker 2: US involvement and basically ties US to two countries in

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Speaker 2: the Middle East, as opposed to just kind of trying

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Speaker 2: at least to be above traditionally is what we always

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Speaker 2: tried to do. We always usually wanted a balance of

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Speaker 2: power approach here. We would explicitly align ourselves in legal

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Speaker 2: fashion with a single nation and then almost guarantee some

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Speaker 2: sort of confrontation with Iran coming down the title. Of course,

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Speaker 2: that's you know what a lot of people in this

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Speaker 2: town want, so don't put that past them. But there's

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Speaker 2: a lot of very consequential stuff that's happening here. I

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Speaker 2: do think if netshen Yahu is replaced, even with somebody

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Speaker 2: like Dance. Look, you may not like the policy whenever

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Speaker 2: it comes to Gaza, but internationally I do think there

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Speaker 2: would be a mayor change. I think some sort of

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Speaker 2: like ceasepile and or hostage deal seems a lot more likely.

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Speaker 2: Those guys Netsion Yahu is basically dead, you know, his

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Speaker 2: future is very uncertain for them. It's not the same,

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Speaker 2: you know, they don't have all the baggage of the past.

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Speaker 2: They want to try and they can see. They're not

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Speaker 2: stupid for what the future looks like for the nation.

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Speaker 2: They want to dig themselves out of that hole. So

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Speaker 2: in a way, I think that against Lapee led government,

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Speaker 2: anything like that would be a dramatic improvement, you know,

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Speaker 2: for Israeli policy going forward.

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Speaker 1: The difference is again neither as opposed to the war.

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Speaker 1: Neither has any issue with the you know, massacres that

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Speaker 1: have been committed and the fact that Gaza has been

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Speaker 1: effectively annihilated, reduced to rubble, the massive number of deaths

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Speaker 1: and civilians who've been killed. None of them have any

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Speaker 1: issue with that, you know who, though faces pressure from

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Speaker 1: the far right, I mean the literal terrorists who are

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Speaker 1: in his government, and so he is constantly trying to

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Speaker 1: split the difference between you know, maintaining some acceptability to

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Speaker 1: the you know what is the Israeli mainstream and these

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Speaker 1: you know, really hardline I think very fair to say,

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Speaker 1: fascist individuals that are in his government. And so that's

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Speaker 1: where he is pressured, which is why you know, you

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Speaker 1: see him, you'll hear him say things that can be

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Speaker 1: directly contradictory depending on the time. Benny Gantz and Yayr

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Speaker 1: Lapede are more likely to be influenced by the public

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Speaker 1: that's on the side of we just got to get

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Speaker 1: the hostage.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and more like you know, the traditional secular coalition

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Speaker 2: of Israel.

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Speaker 1: Right exactly. And so there is we've covered the polls

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Speaker 1: here again. The Israeli public, Israeli Jews have no issue

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Speaker 1: with the horrors that have been inflicted by the idea.

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Speaker 1: If you have a number who say, hey, I haven't

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Speaker 1: gone far enough, you only have four percent who say

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Speaker 1: they've gone too far, So that's not where the pressure lies. However,

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Speaker 1: we have also seen polling that says there is a

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Speaker 1: clear majority in favor of prioritizing the release of the

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Speaker 1: hostages over this fantasy of complete elimination of Hamas. And

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Speaker 1: so if you had a Lapede or a Gance who

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Speaker 1: had more power, they would be pressured war by that.

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Speaker 1: Public sentiment and public opinion could lead to a different outcome.

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Speaker 1: But I mean, Nanayahu shows no signs of calling new elections.

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Speaker 1: There's no imminent sign that his government is going to

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Speaker 1: collapse and force his hand there. So he's a wily guy,

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Speaker 1: and you know, with his political life on the line,

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Speaker 1: and also, by the way, facing corruption charges that could

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Speaker 1: literally land him in prison. At this point, he seems

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Speaker 1: to be hanging in there, and he's thinking, hey, you know,

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Speaker 1: as friendly as Biden's been towards me, I can I can.

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Speaker 1: If I can hang in there through the November elections,

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Speaker 1: Trump will be an even greater buddy to me and

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Speaker 1: go along with whatever I want to do. So I

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Speaker 1: think that's a calculation for him at the point.

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Speaker 3: I wouldn't bet against him.

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Speaker 2: I think I also think I'd probably give him fifty

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Speaker 2: percent chance of survival. But that's a lot less than

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Speaker 2: has been in the future. Ye see, I don't know.

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Speaker 2: I mean, things are definitely shaking up there and it

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Speaker 2: will go in two directions, are either going to lose

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Speaker 2: in the center left slash center right will take power,

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Speaker 2: or he will remain in power by making common cause

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Speaker 2: with you know, much more of the far Israeli right either,

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Speaker 2: you know, I mean both, and that's the thing, let's

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Speaker 2: not diminish it. It will have still a major consequences

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Speaker 2: for foreign policy. If that latter case I just describe

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Speaker 2: takes it, you know, cease fires not only off the table,

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Speaker 2: just won't care anymore.

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Speaker 3: They won't even pretend, you know, to look at it.

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Speaker 2: In terms of west Bank too, there could be a

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Speaker 2: lot of different changes. While aganst government is going to

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Speaker 2: handle that very very differently going going forward, and it's

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Speaker 2: going to be a lot more receptive to US pressure

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Speaker 2: and like I guess public management of Israeli perception in

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Speaker 2: the future with the European Union with the US.

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Speaker 3: So they have a choice and we'll see which way.

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Speaker 1: And BB hasn't really tried to even like put a

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Speaker 1: reasonable face. Yeah he does the horors they're inflicting, whereas

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Speaker 1: Gance may go to greater lengths to sort of, you know,

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Speaker 1: provide some sort of cover for what.

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Speaker 3: They're the war.

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Speaker 2: It's very possible I mean, you know, you know, in

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Speaker 2: a lot of ways, you can look at it like this.

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Speaker 2: They're like, look, the Ratha thing, it's not gonna happen.

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Speaker 2: Our partners are broadly like not really with us. We

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Speaker 2: could just sign this ceasefire deal we call it when

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Speaker 2: you know, we just move on and then there'll be

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Speaker 2: some whatever, some humanitarian the blaming aid trucks, et cetera.

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Speaker 3: It's I wouldn't put it outside the realm of possibility.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but none of that's coming anytime soon.

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Speaker 3: No, I don't do it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the bottom line. Okay, let's move on to

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Speaker 1: this hostage rescue slash massacre that occurred over the weekend.

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Speaker 1: We can put this up on the screen. One woman,

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Speaker 1: this is Noah Arkhamani, who was captured at that Nova

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Speaker 1: Music festival, and she really became quite famous because there

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Speaker 1: was some horrifying video of her being captured and taken

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Speaker 1: away crying out for her boyfriend. This is one of

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Speaker 1: the other male hostages who was released. But as part

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Speaker 1: of this quote unquote rescue mission, you had just an

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Speaker 1: absolute massacre, one of the deadliest days that we have

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Speaker 1: had in this entire Gaza war. You can see here

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Speaker 1: the rubble. You can see dead bodies, you can see

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Speaker 1: the injured, and reports are that from the Health Ministry

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Speaker 1: that two hundred and seventy four Palestinians were killed in

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Speaker 1: this effort to rescue the four hostages. We can put

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Speaker 1: this up on the screen. From the Financial Times, they

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Speaker 1: have some more details about what occurred. Their headline here

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Speaker 1: Israel's raid to free hostages takes a horrific toll on

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Speaker 1: central Gaza. Hundreds of Palestinians killed and injured, and gun

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Speaker 1: battles and bombardment that accompanied the operation. I'll read you

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Speaker 1: a little bit of this again so you can get

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Speaker 1: some of the details. The raid which freed those four

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Speaker 1: hostages was a boost, they write for Netnyahu's government, which

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Speaker 1: has spent the last week arguing whether to agree to

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Speaker 1: a US backed plan to end the fighting. But the

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Speaker 1: devastating firepower used by Israeli forces also made June eighth

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Speaker 1: the deadliest day for Gazans in months, with Enclave's Health

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Speaker 1: Ministry saying the raid, which was accompanied by gun battles

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Speaker 1: any fierce bombardment, had killed two hundred and seventy four

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Speaker 1: Palestines and injured six hundred and ninety eight One medical

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Speaker 1: chief described the horrific scenes in his hospital after the raid.

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Speaker 1: The director of the Alaximarder's hospital said, they came with

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Speaker 1: horrific injuries, torn lower limbs or upper limbs, some with

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Speaker 1: broken skulls, their brains pouring out, some shot in the abdomen.

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Speaker 1: Indian testines. There are women, children, the elderly. Houses have

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Speaker 1: been destroyed and families wiped out. I also wanted to

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Speaker 1: note from that article you had the chief Israeli military spokesman,

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Speaker 1: Daniel Hagari, because this is giving credence to those on

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Speaker 1: the net Nyahu side of the equation who say, hey,

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Speaker 1: we don't need a cease fire, even though that's the

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Speaker 1: way that obviously the largest number of hostages were released

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Speaker 1: by far, and overall Israel has still killed far more

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Speaker 1: hostages through their military operations than they have rescued. But

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Speaker 1: it's giving credence to this idea of oh no, we

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Speaker 1: don't need a cease fire deal. We can just you know,

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Speaker 1: we can just do this again and just you know,

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Speaker 1: massacre hundreds of Palestinians to rescue the rest of the hostages.

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Speaker 1: But Daniel Hagari, even the Israeli military spokesman rejects that view, saying,

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Speaker 1: we know that we cannot do operations to rescue all

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Speaker 1: of them because the conditions won't allow it. We saw

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Speaker 1: already that what brought the biggest number of hostages home

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Speaker 1: was a deal. There is no argument about that. And

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Speaker 1: so Sagar, I mean, you know, it's one more instance

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Speaker 1: where it's just very clear in terms of the US

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Speaker 1: political elite, certainly the Israeli political elite, but with our

432
00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:41,359
Speaker 1: own political elite, that Palestinian lives just don't count the

433
00:21:41,359 --> 00:21:44,119
Speaker 1: same way that Israeli lives do, you know? To celebrate

434
00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:48,200
Speaker 1: this mission and listen, I think the hostages should be released.

435
00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:51,160
Speaker 1: You know, I'm happy for these hostages that they are

436
00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:55,720
Speaker 1: home with their families, but at the cost of hundreds

437
00:21:55,720 --> 00:22:00,240
Speaker 1: of Palestinians, this is celebrated as a victory. And you know,

438
00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:03,600
Speaker 1: a thousand dead and injured war that are trapped under

439
00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:06,359
Speaker 1: the rubble and this is considered a victory. I mean,

440
00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:10,240
Speaker 1: it just shows you how grotesque the immorality around this

441
00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:10,800
Speaker 1: has become.

442
00:22:10,960 --> 00:22:13,280
Speaker 2: I look, I think it's a tragedy, but this is

443
00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:16,480
Speaker 2: a complicated one because this is one where they actually

444
00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:19,639
Speaker 2: did achieve militarily what they had sought to now listen.

445
00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:20,760
Speaker 3: I will say this, the.

446
00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:23,359
Speaker 2: US military does not conduct operations this way. They would

447
00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:25,960
Speaker 2: never have pulled the trigger. The circumstances are a little

448
00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:28,200
Speaker 2: bit difficult because what happened is is that the vast

449
00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:32,119
Speaker 2: majority of the debts occurred after they had stormed the

450
00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:35,480
Speaker 2: apartment building and then apparently the vehicle that the Israelis

451
00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:37,199
Speaker 2: were in and broke down. They were getting fired on

452
00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:40,640
Speaker 2: by RPG, so they called an air support. Basically, clear

453
00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:43,280
Speaker 2: out the road, take the hostages out, take them to

454
00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:43,960
Speaker 2: the helicopter.

455
00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:44,760
Speaker 3: I agree.

456
00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:47,120
Speaker 2: I mean it's an absolute tragedy, the number of civilians

457
00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:47,560
Speaker 2: killed here.

458
00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:49,600
Speaker 3: It also was intentionally placed.

459
00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:52,120
Speaker 2: I just think militarily, this is a very different operation

460
00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:55,679
Speaker 2: then let's saying carpet bombing the crap out of a

461
00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:58,760
Speaker 2: refugee camp and saying, well, we hit a single terrorist.

462
00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:01,679
Speaker 2: It was genuinely was in port of a rescue like

463
00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:05,399
Speaker 2: hostage mission. You could see a Western operation like the

464
00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:07,880
Speaker 2: US something like this go down in a similar situation

465
00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:10,560
Speaker 2: where our guys get bogged down, the hostages are there,

466
00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:12,000
Speaker 2: the vehicle that they're in, you have to call in

467
00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:14,520
Speaker 2: air support. At that point it is a matter of

468
00:23:14,520 --> 00:23:16,399
Speaker 2: life and death. I just think this one is is

469
00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:17,159
Speaker 2: a little bit different.

470
00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:19,440
Speaker 1: I don't think so. No, it is they bombed a

471
00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:22,040
Speaker 1: rotted marketplace in the middle of the day.

472
00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:23,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean they're there.

473
00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:28,639
Speaker 1: Hundreds, nearly three hundred Palestinians murdered to rescue four people.

474
00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:31,360
Speaker 1: You're right, I mean, on the one hand, our military

475
00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:33,920
Speaker 1: would not have green lent this operation. On the other hand,

476
00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:37,119
Speaker 1: we were actually involved in some capacity. According to the

477
00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:38,960
Speaker 1: New York Times, there was an American role team of

478
00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:42,159
Speaker 1: the US Hostage Recovery Official station in Israel assisted in

479
00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:45,600
Speaker 1: the Israeli military's effort by providing intelligence and other support.

480
00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:49,480
Speaker 1: But going back to your I mean, if you had

481
00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:52,600
Speaker 1: imagine Omar Badar, I'm taking this from me, he made

482
00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:55,840
Speaker 1: this calming Ynswery. I think it's so important if you

483
00:23:56,160 --> 00:24:02,360
Speaker 1: had Hamas massacre close to three hundred Israelis to rescue

484
00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:05,440
Speaker 1: four of their prisoners. By the way, Israel holds thousands

485
00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:10,080
Speaker 1: of Palestinian hostages, no one would accept that. No one

486
00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:14,159
Speaker 1: would accept that them going into massacring and as the kids, women,

487
00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:19,200
Speaker 1: civilians in a busy, crowded marketplace, taking out entire multi

488
00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:23,560
Speaker 1: story apartment buildings to get four people. No one would

489
00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:26,119
Speaker 1: look at that math and say that that's acceptable. So

490
00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:27,880
Speaker 1: why is it acceptable when it's Israeli.

491
00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:29,240
Speaker 3: I would flip it around and say, I think you're

492
00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:30,879
Speaker 3: making a media point. I don't even disagree with you.

493
00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:33,040
Speaker 2: I mean, obviously people in the media cut like a

494
00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:37,160
Speaker 2: lot more slack. But I mean, each any nation, group, etc.

495
00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:39,800
Speaker 2: Has the ultimate responsibility to look out for its own

496
00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:40,879
Speaker 2: troops and for its own people.

497
00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:43,400
Speaker 3: In this particular case, their people are at risk.

498
00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:48,040
Speaker 1: They also have a responsibility to follow the laws of war. Wow,

499
00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:52,159
Speaker 1: which means listen. Hamas held these hostages in residential areas.

500
00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:55,960
Speaker 1: That is a war crime. Yes, that does not alleviate

501
00:24:56,000 --> 00:25:00,240
Speaker 1: the responsibility of Israel or any other nation to take

502
00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:03,880
Speaker 1: precautions when it comes to civilians. The fact that Hamas

503
00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:06,159
Speaker 1: does something wrong doesn't give you a get out of

504
00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:09,040
Speaker 1: jail free pass. And that's the way that they've acted.

505
00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:12,880
Speaker 1: That's the entire justification for this entire genocide. They did

506
00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:16,160
Speaker 1: bad things, they committed war crimes on October seven. True,

507
00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:18,840
Speaker 1: So that gives us a green light to do whatever

508
00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:20,920
Speaker 1: the hell we want to do and not care one

509
00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:26,800
Speaker 1: bit about Palestinian civilians. I mean, this was the deadliest

510
00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:31,160
Speaker 1: day we've seen in Gaza in months. It's wholly unjustifiable,

511
00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:35,000
Speaker 1: especially given the context that there is a deal on

512
00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:39,760
Speaker 1: the table to rescue all of the hostages without killing

513
00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:44,320
Speaker 1: a single Palestinian civilian. So if beaming at Yahoo and

514
00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:47,000
Speaker 1: the rest of the military establishment and these far right

515
00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:51,560
Speaker 1: goons actually care about the hostages, then they would agree

516
00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:55,040
Speaker 1: to the ceasefire deal that they supposedly put forward themselves.

517
00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:59,440
Speaker 1: So it's no, it's not justifiable. And they also, let's

518
00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:02,399
Speaker 1: put this piece up on the screen. They also, as

519
00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:06,720
Speaker 1: part of this disguise combatants in civilian clothing. This is

520
00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:09,040
Speaker 1: a picture, by the way, this isn't fully verified, but

521
00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:11,160
Speaker 1: this is the image that was floating around of this

522
00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:15,760
Speaker 1: civilian vehicle AID truck. This is a helicopter that landed

523
00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:19,560
Speaker 1: right by the quote unquote humanitarian peer. The US is saying, oh, no,

524
00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:21,560
Speaker 1: we had nothing to do with it. You know, we

525
00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:23,359
Speaker 1: didn't use the peer, et cetera, et cetera. But that

526
00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:25,720
Speaker 1: helicopter is literally right next to the pier. So you

527
00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:28,640
Speaker 1: make of that what you will. But put this next

528
00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:30,760
Speaker 1: piece up on the screen. This is from ken Roth.

529
00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:36,360
Speaker 1: Disguising combatants in civilian clothing to commit hostilities constitutes perfidy.

530
00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:39,160
Speaker 1: That is a war crime. And this is not from

531
00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:43,120
Speaker 1: you know, Palestinian sources, which nobody seems to believe. This

532
00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:47,320
Speaker 1: is from Israeli news sources. Israel's rescue team reportedly enter

533
00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:49,600
Speaker 1: the area in a furniture truck driven by a female

534
00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:53,520
Speaker 1: soldier in civilian clothes. There's a good reason why this

535
00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:57,320
Speaker 1: is a war crime, which is if you're using civilian trucks,

536
00:26:57,320 --> 00:27:00,560
Speaker 1: if you're using especially humanitarian AID trucks, think of how

537
00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:05,119
Speaker 1: much danger AID workers have already been in in this conflict.

538
00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:08,840
Speaker 1: So now you're basically putting an even greater target on

539
00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:13,080
Speaker 1: their back because there's a suspicion now if you see

540
00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:16,960
Speaker 1: an AID truck that it could be idea of soldiers

541
00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:19,400
Speaker 1: coming in to commit another massacre. So that's why that's

542
00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:20,760
Speaker 1: considered a war crime.

543
00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:22,120
Speaker 3: But this is where I just disagree.

544
00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:25,119
Speaker 2: It's like, well, then all you know US special operations

545
00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:26,280
Speaker 2: are quote unquote a war crime.

546
00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:26,960
Speaker 3: It's ridiculous.

547
00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:29,159
Speaker 2: I mean, our people are talking about, well, you think

548
00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:32,080
Speaker 2: we haven't sent CIA agents and Delta Force operatives disguised

549
00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:34,520
Speaker 2: in civilian garb to go smash and grab or like

550
00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:37,080
Speaker 2: rescue our own hostages or rescue West.

551
00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:41,160
Speaker 1: Of course, a truck in an AID truck AID truck.

552
00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:43,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree, I wouldn't do it. Obviously these realized

553
00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:44,760
Speaker 2: you're going to be doing different things. But this is

554
00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:47,000
Speaker 2: what I'm saying about the whole discourse run quote unquote,

555
00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:48,080
Speaker 2: war crime, et cetera.

556
00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:49,600
Speaker 3: Like it's a lot of it is just a farce.

557
00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:51,919
Speaker 2: It's not the way that people actually operate in a

558
00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:52,880
Speaker 2: military environment.

559
00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:55,600
Speaker 1: I think, not the way they operate in a military environment.

560
00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:57,240
Speaker 1: But the reason that we have it is that we

561
00:27:57,280 --> 00:28:00,240
Speaker 1: have language to talk about why it is wrong and

562
00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:03,080
Speaker 1: why it should be out of bounds, and so that

563
00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:05,080
Speaker 1: there is some way to put pressure and not just

564
00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:07,080
Speaker 1: out well might read. I mean, they can murder people,

565
00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:08,720
Speaker 1: so why not let's just look the other I guess

566
00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:11,600
Speaker 1: it's fine. They got four people, so, you know, killing

567
00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:14,800
Speaker 1: three hundred and injuring another seven hundred, reducing another entire

568
00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:16,760
Speaker 1: neighborhood to reubele. I guess it's fine because they can

569
00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:17,040
Speaker 1: do it.

570
00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:19,119
Speaker 2: No, it's that Look, at the end of the day,

571
00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:21,280
Speaker 2: they were also under like a huge amount of fire.

572
00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:24,040
Speaker 2: This was a very different environment they're under RPG.

573
00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:26,800
Speaker 1: So if you want the hostages back, do the ceasefire.

574
00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:29,119
Speaker 1: G Yeah, I agree, you don't have to murder a

575
00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:31,600
Speaker 1: single Palestinian. There don't have to be little kids with

576
00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:34,600
Speaker 1: their limbs blown off and getting amputations with no anesthetic

577
00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:36,560
Speaker 1: and no mom and no dad, and by the way,

578
00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:38,520
Speaker 1: you know, a lot of hatred in their hearts and

579
00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:39,920
Speaker 1: God knows what they're going to want to do when

580
00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:40,520
Speaker 1: they grow up.

581
00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:42,400
Speaker 2: I agree that I wouldn't operate this way, but I

582
00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:44,960
Speaker 2: just think this is very, very substantively different than a

583
00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:47,680
Speaker 2: lot of the carpet bombing operation that we've seen all

584
00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:51,400
Speaker 2: throughout Gods, or the intentional withholding of humanitarian aid, et cetera.

585
00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:53,600
Speaker 2: But like, are we really going to say that operators

586
00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:55,440
Speaker 2: are allowed to go into a war environment and not

587
00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:55,960
Speaker 2: you know, be.

588
00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:57,760
Speaker 1: In humanitarian aid trucks?

589
00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:00,480
Speaker 2: Yes, Look, I'm just not going to say that because

590
00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:02,680
Speaker 2: given the fact that any US citizen or others who

591
00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:04,960
Speaker 2: are if I ever get you know, abducted, do whatever

592
00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:06,120
Speaker 2: you need in order to get me back.

593
00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:07,040
Speaker 3: And I think that's all a lot of do do

594
00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:07,960
Speaker 3: with ceasfire deal.

595
00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:10,280
Speaker 1: Well, c that's the thing, you're pretending like this was

596
00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:15,000
Speaker 1: the only option, murdering three hundred people and injuring seven

597
00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:17,520
Speaker 1: hundred others, that that was the only no. And by

598
00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:21,160
Speaker 1: the way, guess what the reports are from the Health

599
00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:26,880
Speaker 1: Ministry that other hostages were killed, including potentially an American citizen.

600
00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:30,400
Speaker 1: That's possible unconfirmed report. Okay, that's not confirmed. Yeah, but

601
00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:33,040
Speaker 1: we do know that. What we had a quote from

602
00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:36,040
Speaker 1: Israeli hostages, just one of the ones that just released,

603
00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:39,000
Speaker 1: who was talking to ha Retz who said, our greatest

604
00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:42,560
Speaker 1: fear was the idea of bombing that we heard. So

605
00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:45,440
Speaker 1: don't talk to me about you know, this is fine

606
00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:47,760
Speaker 1: because it got the hostages back. No, if you care

607
00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:51,520
Speaker 1: about the hostages, do the ceasefire deal. That's what Betty Gantz,

608
00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:53,480
Speaker 1: who you know, I'm no fan of. That's what he's saying.

609
00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:56,080
Speaker 1: That's what the Israeli public is demanding. That's what the

610
00:29:56,120 --> 00:29:58,720
Speaker 1: protests are all about. That's, by the way, even what

611
00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:01,920
Speaker 1: the Israeli military Mary spokes for some Daniel Hagari is saying,

612
00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:03,880
Speaker 1: like this is not sustainable. The way to get the

613
00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:07,400
Speaker 1: hostages back isn't to murder little kids. It's to do

614
00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:10,840
Speaker 1: a ceasfire deal and end this war. So no, I

615
00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:12,760
Speaker 1: don't think it's excusable. And if you look at the

616
00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:18,880
Speaker 1: look at past historical examples, of successful hostage rescue missions.

617
00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:21,640
Speaker 1: There was a thread that somebody put out online. I

618
00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:23,280
Speaker 1: wish you had it in front of me, but you'll

619
00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:28,480
Speaker 1: see like zero civilians killed, zero, maybe three civilians killed,

620
00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:34,760
Speaker 1: two hundred and seventy. No, it's not proportionate. It's not acceptable,

621
00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:37,640
Speaker 1: especially again when there is a deal on the table

622
00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:40,960
Speaker 1: that could bring all the hostages home and not require

623
00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:41,800
Speaker 1: a single death.

624
00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:44,200
Speaker 2: I don't disagree that they should take the ceasefire deal.

625
00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:46,040
Speaker 2: I agree the US military never would have done this.

626
00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:48,320
Speaker 2: We have how much higher level of professionalism, thank god,

627
00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:51,080
Speaker 2: in terms of the people that we run. Our substantive

628
00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:53,360
Speaker 2: disagreement is about the idea that you're not allowed to

629
00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:56,200
Speaker 2: use like military force in the course of a hostage

630
00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:56,960
Speaker 2: rescue mission.

631
00:30:57,000 --> 00:30:59,480
Speaker 1: Which did I say that no? But I didn't say

632
00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:01,680
Speaker 1: that no, son, How is that a disagreement?

633
00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:02,480
Speaker 3: But that's what happened.

634
00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:05,280
Speaker 1: Three hundred people killed is unaccepted.

635
00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:07,360
Speaker 2: In the middle of that operation, their car broke down

636
00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:10,000
Speaker 2: because they were getting RPGs and machine guns fired at them,

637
00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:12,240
Speaker 2: and they called in air support. That the exact same

638
00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:13,840
Speaker 2: thing that any Western style military would do.

639
00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:14,280
Speaker 3: In the exacts.

640
00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:16,640
Speaker 1: They provided cover and bombing on the way in and

641
00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:19,240
Speaker 1: the way out. They did it during the day when

642
00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:21,760
Speaker 1: there was a busy marketplace there, and that's how so

643
00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:24,840
Speaker 1: many civilians were murdered. Not to mention, they took out

644
00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:28,000
Speaker 1: multiple residential buildings, not just the two that the hostages

645
00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:30,960
Speaker 1: were being held in. Not to mention, very possible that

646
00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:33,960
Speaker 1: they killed their own hostages in this operation. So no,

647
00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:37,000
Speaker 1: we wouldn't have done it. It's not acceptable. We have

648
00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:39,680
Speaker 1: also committed workers. I'm not like excusing us and pretending

649
00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:42,320
Speaker 1: like we're angels, but I just don't see how you

650
00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:44,360
Speaker 1: look at this and say this was this was fine,

651
00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:46,920
Speaker 1: this was acceptable. Well, it seems to me, what's you're arguing.

652
00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:49,160
Speaker 2: I think it is substantively different than many of the

653
00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:50,440
Speaker 2: other things that have been committed on.

654
00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:52,040
Speaker 1: Would they say the same thing they said, Oh, well,

655
00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:54,040
Speaker 1: we've bu on the refugee, we got a Hamas batty,

656
00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:56,800
Speaker 1: so it's fine, we accomplished our military goals.

657
00:31:57,040 --> 00:31:59,000
Speaker 2: How is this different because they were in the middle

658
00:31:59,000 --> 00:31:59,959
Speaker 2: of our rescue operation?

659
00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:01,360
Speaker 3: This literally is different.

660
00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:08,080
Speaker 1: Insanely disproportionate. Insanely disproportionate. I mean, it's just it's outrageous

661
00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:11,160
Speaker 1: to say that it's acceptable to have three hundred dead

662
00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:15,280
Speaker 1: to rescue four people when you could get them all

663
00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:17,800
Speaker 1: of the hostages and protect all of the hostages who

664
00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:20,800
Speaker 1: are again at risk because of the idea bombing operation

665
00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:24,120
Speaker 1: without killing a single person. I just, I mean, I

666
00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:26,160
Speaker 1: just can't agree with with this whatsoever.

667
00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:28,640
Speaker 2: The reason that I'm pushing back Crystal is because of

668
00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:31,200
Speaker 2: exactly like the ken Roth rhetoric, this idea that you know,

669
00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:31,760
Speaker 2: you're never.

670
00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:34,040
Speaker 3: Like you can't dress in civilian garb.

671
00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:35,840
Speaker 2: I mean, I just think at a certain point we

672
00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:38,320
Speaker 2: all need to stop living in a fantasy land where

673
00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:40,800
Speaker 2: everybody is just going to be abiding by the laws

674
00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:41,040
Speaker 2: of war.

675
00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:44,640
Speaker 1: We're not living in a fantasy. We're living in a nightmare. Yeah,

676
00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:49,080
Speaker 1: people in Gaza are living a hell on earth. And

677
00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:53,960
Speaker 1: so it's disgusting to me that we have US politicians

678
00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:57,960
Speaker 1: who claim this as a victory when again, if the

679
00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:01,560
Speaker 1: shoe was on the other foot and it was four

680
00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:07,560
Speaker 1: Palestinian hostages who were rescued in an operation that killed

681
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:12,760
Speaker 1: hundreds of Israelis, no one would say that was okay,

682
00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:14,760
Speaker 1: And it wouldn't be okay. I wouldn't say it was okay.

683
00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:21,360
Speaker 1: But because Palestinians are so dehumanized and considered so inconsequential,

684
00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:24,880
Speaker 1: it's just fine to wave your hand as it's fine

685
00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:26,080
Speaker 1: for it to be collateral damaged.

686
00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:28,440
Speaker 2: As I said, I think you're arguing against media personalities,

687
00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:31,280
Speaker 2: which I don't even necessarily disagree with what I'm saying.

688
00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:33,120
Speaker 2: And honestly, though, if I was looking at it from

689
00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:35,640
Speaker 2: a Hamas perspective, I was Palestinian and four of our

690
00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:38,120
Speaker 2: guys need to be rescued, and then people were shooting

691
00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:40,040
Speaker 2: it of the people who are going to go rescue them,

692
00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:41,880
Speaker 2: and you did whatever a token order to get them out,

693
00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:43,680
Speaker 2: I'd be like, yeah, I mean, I'm not saying that's

694
00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:45,320
Speaker 2: a good thing, but if I was in their position,

695
00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:48,480
Speaker 2: I'd probably do the exact same thing. Most rational nation

696
00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:50,959
Speaker 2: states and or military groups would do that.

697
00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:51,960
Speaker 3: Now, it's not true.

698
00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:54,280
Speaker 1: You just said that we wouldn't do it. No, well,

699
00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:56,160
Speaker 1: you just said we wouldn't do it, Tager.

700
00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:57,880
Speaker 2: You would not plan an operation this way. But if

701
00:33:57,880 --> 00:33:59,560
Speaker 2: we found ourselves in a situation.

702
00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:01,160
Speaker 1: Then point to the people where we did something. It's

703
00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:03,280
Speaker 1: been a long time I went to a single example. No,

704
00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:07,720
Speaker 1: Klen Again, I think I'm not saying we're perfect, right,

705
00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:11,200
Speaker 1: we commit war crimes. Also, I've been very critical, but

706
00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:13,920
Speaker 1: you can't say any rational nations state would do it,

707
00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:15,799
Speaker 1: and also say we never would have done No.

708
00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:18,000
Speaker 2: I said, we wouldn't plan a military operation this way,

709
00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:21,640
Speaker 2: but incessarily in a similar circumstance though if our people

710
00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:24,280
Speaker 2: were under fire in the middle of a hostage rescue

711
00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:26,200
Speaker 2: mission there was no other way to get out. Absolutely

712
00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:29,319
Speaker 2: US military would probably pull the trigger in the same way.

713
00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:31,120
Speaker 1: But you can't point to an example where it's happened.

714
00:34:31,160 --> 00:34:33,080
Speaker 2: Well, it's been I mean, I said, I don't even

715
00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:35,160
Speaker 2: know the last time I had a major rescue operation.

716
00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:37,640
Speaker 2: I want to say it was Kayla Mueller with under

717
00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:39,959
Speaker 2: Ice I was almost I think seven eight years ago.

718
00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:40,800
Speaker 3: Since the last time.

719
00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:43,800
Speaker 2: Now we've operated in a very different environment, I can't

720
00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:46,680
Speaker 2: necessarily say the same thing. I think, again, we have

721
00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:49,719
Speaker 2: a much higher level of professionalism and conduct than the

722
00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:53,160
Speaker 2: way that they could the way that they execute military operations.

723
00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:56,160
Speaker 2: But the disagreement, as I said, is both about the

724
00:34:56,239 --> 00:34:59,040
Speaker 2: difference in the way that they're quote unquote killing terrorists

725
00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:02,600
Speaker 2: and terrorizing the population as opposed to a single thing.

726
00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:05,200
Speaker 2: And my big disagreement is with a lot of this

727
00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:08,080
Speaker 2: idea that you know that we're just supposed to condict

728
00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:11,520
Speaker 2: military operations in some sort of world where everybody just

729
00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:12,560
Speaker 2: abides by the laws of war.

730
00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:15,720
Speaker 3: It's not like they weren't getting shot at bombed by Yeah.

731
00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:18,400
Speaker 1: That we should avoid at times. I think we should

732
00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:24,439
Speaker 1: avoid massacrering hundreds of innocent civilians. Okay. And by the way,

733
00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:26,960
Speaker 1: there's a hostage deal on the table. And by the way,

734
00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:29,600
Speaker 1: this puts hostages further at risk, and by the way,

735
00:35:29,719 --> 00:35:32,840
Speaker 1: its fuels the hatred that will lead to more terrorism

736
00:35:32,920 --> 00:35:36,239
Speaker 1: in the future. This was a political play for bb

737
00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:40,560
Speaker 1: Netanyahoo in order to keep his grip on power at

738
00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:45,400
Speaker 1: the expense of a thousand Palestinians between the dead and

739
00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:49,520
Speaker 1: the injured. Okay, there was nothing justifiable about it, and

740
00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:53,120
Speaker 1: I think it is a disgusting worldview that just dismisses

741
00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:57,440
Speaker 1: this level of quote unquote collateral damage as being acceptable

742
00:35:57,520 --> 00:35:59,040
Speaker 1: in any context.

743
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:01,919
Speaker 3: We move on, okay, but this is what I'm saying.

744
00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:05,759
Speaker 3: You can't just say it's a disgusting world viehica. Then

745
00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:07,880
Speaker 3: there's no operation.

746
00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:11,680
Speaker 2: Ever where the right of self defense or military hostage

747
00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:13,239
Speaker 2: rescue can happen under this.

748
00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:13,839
Speaker 3: It's just not.

749
00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:15,520
Speaker 1: True.

750
00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:20,000
Speaker 2: The contrue I'm talking to a bigger generality, which, look,

751
00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:22,839
Speaker 2: I have not disagreed that there shouldn't be a Ceaspire deal.

752
00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:25,360
Speaker 2: But like, I'm sorry, this is just a that is

753
00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:29,160
Speaker 2: frankly a pie in the sky like worldview where everybody

754
00:36:29,239 --> 00:36:30,799
Speaker 2: signs contion.

755
00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:33,759
Speaker 1: You know what, and the realities I would like to

756
00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:37,120
Speaker 1: live in, but I acknowledge I don't live in that world.

757
00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:41,080
Speaker 1: But even acknowledging the imperfect, imperfect world we live in,

758
00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:44,839
Speaker 1: you also have to admit that our military wouldn't have

759
00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:48,320
Speaker 1: greenlit this operation. That you can't point to another hostage

760
00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:53,640
Speaker 1: rescue mission that led to hundreds of deaths, and so

761
00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:55,960
Speaker 1: to pretend like this is all fine and good and

762
00:36:56,040 --> 00:36:58,719
Speaker 1: just in the normal course of operations, No, this is

763
00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:04,040
Speaker 1: outrageously side of what the world has looked like and

764
00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:07,120
Speaker 1: what quote unquote rational nation state actors, including our own

765
00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:09,040
Speaker 1: very imperfect country, has done in the past.

766
00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:11,400
Speaker 3: No what again, Like I'm just going to reiterate, like

767
00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:12,080
Speaker 3: it is.

768
00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:14,520
Speaker 2: It really does come down to what it was going

769
00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:17,600
Speaker 2: to look like in the context of an actual military operation.

770
00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:20,840
Speaker 2: Whenever you're literally rescuing hostages, a vehicle breaks down, it's like,

771
00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:22,319
Speaker 2: what are you supposed to do? You know you're going

772
00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:24,200
Speaker 2: to die or you're going to You're going to get

773
00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:26,080
Speaker 2: your way out. There actually is a zero sum game.

774
00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:28,280
Speaker 2: Whenever it comes down, you're supposed to get a back situation.

775
00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:32,120
Speaker 1: You are supposed to protect civilians. You are supposed to

776
00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:35,560
Speaker 1: if you are a soldier, guess what part of your

777
00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:39,600
Speaker 1: responsibility is to risk your life to protect civilians.

778
00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:40,120
Speaker 3: Agree with that?

779
00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:43,560
Speaker 1: Okay, well that's not what happened here. Okay, so no,

780
00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:48,160
Speaker 1: but and again, don't green light such a dangerous operation

781
00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:50,400
Speaker 1: to start with if it's going to potentially lead to

782
00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:54,400
Speaker 1: hundreds of deaths, and if you care about the hostages,

783
00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:57,400
Speaker 1: do the cease fire deal. So I just you know,

784
00:37:57,560 --> 00:38:00,800
Speaker 1: on every level, I find it outrageous that is considered

785
00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:03,200
Speaker 1: in any way justifiable or acceptable.

786
00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:07,239
Speaker 2: I agree that the ceasefire deal should happen, and in

787
00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:09,080
Speaker 2: some ways I think we're almost tooken past each other.

788
00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:12,279
Speaker 2: But I guess where I really my major objection comes

789
00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:15,120
Speaker 2: down to is a lot of the worldview that is

790
00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:17,279
Speaker 2: put forward, I would say by a progressive left in

791
00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:19,319
Speaker 2: the context of this conflict just leaves no room for

792
00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:23,680
Speaker 2: like a military to operate, and in a military to

793
00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:27,719
Speaker 2: operate in a manner which I think is quote unquote justifiable,

794
00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:30,879
Speaker 2: not necessarily saying in this particular instance. What I mean

795
00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:34,759
Speaker 2: by that is hostage rescues, the ability to conduct war.

796
00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:38,080
Speaker 3: You know this idea that you're not supposed to disguise yourself.

797
00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:42,240
Speaker 1: At this point, I mean it's listen. The official number

798
00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:44,759
Speaker 1: is close to forty thousand dead. We both know it's

799
00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:45,640
Speaker 1: probably far more.

800
00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:46,840
Speaker 3: It's probably one hundred thousand.

801
00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:49,120
Speaker 1: When we know that more bombs have been dropped on

802
00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:52,239
Speaker 1: Gaza Strip than World War Two, The devastation is more

803
00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:55,200
Speaker 1: extensive than dressed in right, When we know you have

804
00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:59,640
Speaker 1: the largest population of child amputees in the world, When

805
00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:02,200
Speaker 1: we know that starvation has been used as a tool

806
00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:05,960
Speaker 1: of war, When we know that our political class, and

807
00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:09,040
Speaker 1: the Israeli political class, and the entire Israeli society, with

808
00:39:09,239 --> 00:39:15,000
Speaker 1: very few extremely brave exceptions, so trivializes Palestinian lives, that

809
00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:18,960
Speaker 1: hundreds of Palestines being murdered to rescue four people is

810
00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:22,359
Speaker 1: considered acceptable, when we have seen what's happen over all

811
00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:26,440
Speaker 1: these months. How are you going to criticize the progressive

812
00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:29,040
Speaker 1: left or whatever terminology you use for saying that this

813
00:39:29,080 --> 00:39:32,400
Speaker 1: is unacceptable? Listen, I was never someone who said that

814
00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:35,040
Speaker 1: there was absolutely no room for any sort of military

815
00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:38,680
Speaker 1: operation in the wake of October seven. But as we've

816
00:39:38,719 --> 00:39:42,080
Speaker 1: discussed from the beginning, the way they've gone about it

817
00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:46,760
Speaker 1: from the jump has been unacceptable from their own national

818
00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:51,040
Speaker 1: security interests and certainly from the interests of respecting any

819
00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:55,040
Speaker 1: sort of humanitarian and lives of Palestinians. I mean, you

820
00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:57,960
Speaker 1: have people who are starving to deuv you' a famine,

821
00:39:58,640 --> 00:40:01,719
Speaker 1: you have humanitarian aid is completely blocked, you have an

822
00:40:01,840 --> 00:40:06,160
Speaker 1: entire hospital system that is completely decimated. And so to

823
00:40:06,239 --> 00:40:09,080
Speaker 1: say it's been unreasonable to object to the way that

824
00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:11,319
Speaker 1: this war has been conducted, I just I find not

825
00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:12,560
Speaker 1: completely outrageous.

826
00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:13,600
Speaker 3: I said, That's not what I said.

827
00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:16,880
Speaker 2: What I said is it's unreasonable to expect that it

828
00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:19,360
Speaker 2: is unreasonable to apply, let's say, the same level of

829
00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:22,200
Speaker 2: outrage logic, et cetera, that we would on a bombing

830
00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:26,000
Speaker 2: a military or a refugee camp, or leveling a building

831
00:40:26,040 --> 00:40:28,839
Speaker 2: in order to kill one or two people who allegedly

832
00:40:28,840 --> 00:40:30,680
Speaker 2: may or may not have been there, as opposed to

833
00:40:30,840 --> 00:40:34,080
Speaker 2: an operation where the fire was the vast majority of

834
00:40:34,080 --> 00:40:35,920
Speaker 2: the death according to the Washington Post and according to

835
00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:39,920
Speaker 2: the Financial Times, occurred after the hostages were successfully rescued

836
00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:42,839
Speaker 2: and their vehicle broke down. There was a result of

837
00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:46,480
Speaker 2: Hamas RPG's machine gun fire, and there basically was a

838
00:40:46,560 --> 00:40:48,239
Speaker 2: zero sum game where they were either going to die

839
00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:50,000
Speaker 2: or live and be able to shoot their way out.

840
00:40:50,239 --> 00:40:53,279
Speaker 2: That is a very very different situation and one in

841
00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:55,359
Speaker 2: which collateral damage is genuinely a.

842
00:40:55,320 --> 00:40:58,480
Speaker 3: Tragedy, but is very very different.

843
00:40:58,600 --> 00:41:00,439
Speaker 1: But it's not I would have looked at But it's

844
00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:03,600
Speaker 1: not different because to do if you buy that logic,

845
00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:06,319
Speaker 1: that's the same as accepting like, oh, but you know

846
00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:09,680
Speaker 1: the refugee came. Yeah, they killed two d No hold on,

847
00:41:09,840 --> 00:41:13,000
Speaker 1: let me finish, because they say, we got to it

848
00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:15,600
Speaker 1: was a legitimate military targment. There were two humas, bad guys.

849
00:41:15,640 --> 00:41:19,560
Speaker 1: We got those bad guys collateral damage. It's sad this

850
00:41:19,680 --> 00:41:20,160
Speaker 1: war war.

851
00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:23,880
Speaker 2: In this particular case, they actually did send special operating

852
00:41:23,920 --> 00:41:26,640
Speaker 2: troops into the ground, didn't kill that many people on

853
00:41:26,719 --> 00:41:30,520
Speaker 2: the way in allegedly at least according to the multiple

854
00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:32,799
Speaker 2: ride ups and others things that I have seen, and

855
00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:35,880
Speaker 2: that the vast majority of the casualties were suffered after

856
00:41:36,160 --> 00:41:38,600
Speaker 2: they actually did what I have been saying they should

857
00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:40,360
Speaker 2: have been done from the beginning, which is put their

858
00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:43,160
Speaker 2: own soldiers at risk and grab their hostages in order

859
00:41:43,160 --> 00:41:44,759
Speaker 2: to get them out, and or if you want to

860
00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:46,960
Speaker 2: kill a terrorist in a refugee camp, you should do

861
00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:49,160
Speaker 2: exactly this. You should drop people down on the ground

862
00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:50,640
Speaker 2: and you should go and kill them, and then you

863
00:41:50,680 --> 00:41:51,640
Speaker 2: should get yourself out.

864
00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:53,960
Speaker 1: So I think we also need to acknowledge that those

865
00:41:54,000 --> 00:41:56,799
Speaker 1: reports are coming from what the IDF is saying to.

866
00:41:58,640 --> 00:41:59,600
Speaker 3: What else are we supposed to do?

867
00:41:59,640 --> 00:42:02,480
Speaker 1: I mean, listen to Palestinians who are on the ground,

868
00:42:02,640 --> 00:42:03,920
Speaker 1: who were talking about what happened.

869
00:42:03,960 --> 00:42:06,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, and they're saying that the most vast majority of.

870
00:42:06,040 --> 00:42:08,839
Speaker 1: The death So why did they have to decimate multiple

871
00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:11,960
Speaker 1: apartment buildings that weren't holding hostages? What about that?

872
00:42:12,080 --> 00:42:12,319
Speaker 3: Also?

873
00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:15,000
Speaker 1: What about the people who were buried under the rubble

874
00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:18,799
Speaker 1: in these apartment buildings had nothing to do with holding hostages?

875
00:42:19,080 --> 00:42:21,960
Speaker 1: What about the air cover that they provided quote unquote

876
00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:24,080
Speaker 1: air cover that they provided on the way in, which

877
00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:30,200
Speaker 1: also included gunfire and bombing. So I mean, I just listen.

878
00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:33,680
Speaker 1: I think we should just move on because we're obviously

879
00:42:33,719 --> 00:42:36,799
Speaker 1: not going to agree on this, and you know, I

880
00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:41,279
Speaker 1: just I think it's wholly unacceptable to think that four

881
00:42:41,360 --> 00:42:45,279
Speaker 1: hostages and by the way, other hostages possibly killed and

882
00:42:45,320 --> 00:42:49,359
Speaker 1: put it risk in exchange for three hundred Palestinian lives

883
00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:51,960
Speaker 1: and another seven hundred who have been you know, maimed

884
00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:55,680
Speaker 1: and seriously injured and more reportedly under the rubble. To

885
00:42:55,760 --> 00:42:58,520
Speaker 1: think that that's acceptable or justifiable, I just we're just

886
00:42:58,560 --> 00:43:00,880
Speaker 1: not going to not get agree, all right. There was

887
00:43:00,920 --> 00:43:04,480
Speaker 1: another thing that was put out by Israel, claiming that

888
00:43:04,640 --> 00:43:07,439
Speaker 1: a New York Post wrote this up. This all comes

889
00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:11,400
Speaker 1: directly from IDF sources claiming that an Al Jazeera journalist

890
00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:15,200
Speaker 1: was holding three hostages in his home. This man's name

891
00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:17,719
Speaker 1: is Abdallah al Jamal. No one is disputing that he

892
00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:20,040
Speaker 1: was in fact killed by the IDF along with his

893
00:43:20,120 --> 00:43:25,200
Speaker 1: family members when his home in Gaza was stormed. The

894
00:43:25,239 --> 00:43:29,080
Speaker 1: Israeli military or the Israeli government rather put out a

895
00:43:29,200 --> 00:43:32,360
Speaker 1: statement claiming number one that he was an Al Jazeera

896
00:43:32,440 --> 00:43:35,799
Speaker 1: journalist and number two that he was holding hostages as

897
00:43:35,840 --> 00:43:40,400
Speaker 1: per usual. No evidence of this was offered whatsoever. So

898
00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:43,360
Speaker 1: let's put this next piece up on the screen. First.

899
00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:46,000
Speaker 1: By the way, Israel had claimed that he was holding

900
00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:49,799
Speaker 1: the woman Noah who Noah Argamani hostage in his home.

901
00:43:50,320 --> 00:43:52,560
Speaker 1: Then when it became clear that wasn't the case, they

902
00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:55,520
Speaker 1: claimed that he was keeping the three male hostages. That

903
00:43:55,520 --> 00:43:57,880
Speaker 1: the story was shifting and there were a lot of

904
00:43:57,880 --> 00:44:01,920
Speaker 1: inconsistencies here. For one, Abdullah apparently lived in an apartment

905
00:44:01,920 --> 00:44:04,160
Speaker 1: that was on the first floor in a multi story building.

906
00:44:04,520 --> 00:44:07,480
Speaker 1: Israel claimed those hostages were found on the third floor.

907
00:44:07,800 --> 00:44:10,720
Speaker 1: And it also you know, they didn't now for any evidence,

908
00:44:10,719 --> 00:44:13,399
Speaker 1: so this is very much in dispute. It also comes

909
00:44:13,440 --> 00:44:14,800
Speaker 1: and we can put this next piece up on the

910
00:44:14,840 --> 00:44:18,960
Speaker 1: screen from Al Jazeera. They put on a statement saying

911
00:44:19,080 --> 00:44:21,480
Speaker 1: the ex account of the Israeli Ministry of Defense. In

912
00:44:21,520 --> 00:44:23,839
Speaker 1: some Israeli websites quoted the name of a house name

913
00:44:23,920 --> 00:44:26,759
Speaker 1: journalists from Gaza called Abdullah al Jamal and claimed that

914
00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:28,680
Speaker 1: he works with Al Jazeera, that his name was linked

915
00:44:28,680 --> 00:44:31,000
Speaker 1: to what happened in Israeli armies liberation of four prisoners

916
00:44:31,040 --> 00:44:33,799
Speaker 1: in the central Gaza strip on Saturday. Al Jazeera Media

917
00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:36,680
Speaker 1: Network confirms that he never worked with the network. He

918
00:44:36,719 --> 00:44:40,000
Speaker 1: did contribute to an op ed in twenty nineteen, and

919
00:44:40,080 --> 00:44:44,320
Speaker 1: these allegations are completely unfounded. Network stresses that these allegations

920
00:44:44,320 --> 00:44:47,760
Speaker 1: are continuation of the process of slander and misinformation aimed

921
00:44:47,760 --> 00:44:52,799
Speaker 1: at harming Al Jazeera's reputation. Professionalism and independence. So it

922
00:44:52,840 --> 00:44:55,759
Speaker 1: appears like and this was verified by the way, by

923
00:44:55,800 --> 00:44:58,480
Speaker 1: other news outlets. He contributed to an op ed in

924
00:44:58,520 --> 00:45:00,960
Speaker 1: twenty nineteen. So to calm like now to zero journalists

925
00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:02,680
Speaker 1: is a stretch in any way. They don't offer any

926
00:45:02,680 --> 00:45:05,760
Speaker 1: evidence that he had anything to do with holding the hostages.

927
00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:06,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, this was going on.

928
00:45:06,880 --> 00:45:10,920
Speaker 2: This was going everywhere because Jamal works for and maybe

929
00:45:10,920 --> 00:45:13,400
Speaker 2: you can tell me more about this for some organization

930
00:45:13,520 --> 00:45:16,799
Speaker 2: registered here in the US called Palestinian Chronicles, which is

931
00:45:16,800 --> 00:45:20,240
Speaker 2: a five oh one c three organization. So I guess

932
00:45:20,400 --> 00:45:23,040
Speaker 2: it was up in the air the question of whether

933
00:45:23,160 --> 00:45:24,959
Speaker 2: he and by the way, why does any of this matter,

934
00:45:25,040 --> 00:45:27,600
Speaker 2: because of a lot of the claims around journalists, and

935
00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:29,799
Speaker 2: so we wanted to actually break down and to look

936
00:45:29,800 --> 00:45:32,960
Speaker 2: at it. I agree, based on the circumstances, it does

937
00:45:33,080 --> 00:45:35,640
Speaker 2: look like they originally claimed that he was holding a

938
00:45:35,680 --> 00:45:38,680
Speaker 2: certain hostage and then based on the floor number that

939
00:45:38,719 --> 00:45:42,319
Speaker 2: they then changed afterwards as possible that he lived in

940
00:45:42,320 --> 00:45:45,480
Speaker 2: the building. The reason why again this matters, is that

941
00:45:45,960 --> 00:45:49,480
Speaker 2: I have seen this blown up all over the American

942
00:45:49,560 --> 00:45:51,640
Speaker 2: right and like the pro Israel right, because now they're

943
00:45:51,680 --> 00:45:55,479
Speaker 2: going after Palestinian Chronicles five oh one C three tax

944
00:45:55,600 --> 00:45:57,720
Speaker 2: Rice here in the US.

945
00:45:57,760 --> 00:46:00,120
Speaker 3: But from what it looks like he did live in

946
00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:00,479
Speaker 3: the built.

947
00:46:00,560 --> 00:46:02,840
Speaker 2: Now, I mean that's not necessarily a good thing, you know,

948
00:46:02,880 --> 00:46:05,000
Speaker 2: in terms of whether he knew or not whether these

949
00:46:05,000 --> 00:46:08,000
Speaker 2: people were being held in the same apartment building as him.

950
00:46:08,040 --> 00:46:11,200
Speaker 2: But from what they said, their story has changed twice

951
00:46:11,280 --> 00:46:14,560
Speaker 2: now so far as to whether he lived or whether

952
00:46:14,560 --> 00:46:17,000
Speaker 2: he was holding these people or not. They also said

953
00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:19,640
Speaker 2: that his father was responsible, and that's the part where

954
00:46:19,640 --> 00:46:23,320
Speaker 2: I'm very confused about from the initial explanation.

955
00:46:22,880 --> 00:46:25,200
Speaker 1: Well because the father was also killed in the raid.

956
00:46:25,400 --> 00:46:30,520
Speaker 1: So you know, they're just they're Israel should offer some evidence.

957
00:46:30,600 --> 00:46:32,799
Speaker 1: If they have evidence to back up these claims, then

958
00:46:32,960 --> 00:46:35,080
Speaker 1: you know, at this point they don't deserve the benefit

959
00:46:35,120 --> 00:46:38,040
Speaker 1: of the doubt in any respect. And so the things

960
00:46:38,040 --> 00:46:41,680
Speaker 1: that are very suspicious is number one, the story shifting right.

961
00:46:42,120 --> 00:46:44,319
Speaker 1: Number two, the fact that they really tried to time

962
00:46:44,400 --> 00:46:47,520
Speaker 1: to al Jazero, which I mean it's preposterous, like I've

963
00:46:47,560 --> 00:46:50,760
Speaker 1: contributed to some opbed at some newspaper sometime in the past,

964
00:46:50,880 --> 00:46:53,960
Speaker 1: and that doesn't make me part of their journalistic staff, right.

965
00:46:54,920 --> 00:46:57,520
Speaker 1: And given the fact that they've i mean, they've banned

966
00:46:57,520 --> 00:46:59,719
Speaker 1: al Jazeera and Israel, and they have tried to paint

967
00:46:59,719 --> 00:47:02,440
Speaker 1: them quote unquote humas, So they were clearly trying to

968
00:47:02,560 --> 00:47:06,040
Speaker 1: use this guy to further their own propaganda talking points.

969
00:47:06,320 --> 00:47:08,120
Speaker 1: And then when you have these questions about like the

970
00:47:08,239 --> 00:47:10,000
Speaker 1: you know, the floor number he lived on is not

971
00:47:10,080 --> 00:47:12,040
Speaker 1: the one that they claimed that the hostages were being

972
00:47:12,120 --> 00:47:15,520
Speaker 1: held on. Just you know, there's a lot of reasons

973
00:47:15,640 --> 00:47:18,760
Speaker 1: to be very skeptical, I would say, of the claims

974
00:47:18,760 --> 00:47:20,520
Speaker 1: that they are ultimately making here.

975
00:47:20,640 --> 00:47:24,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm waiting to see because this actually could turn

976
00:47:24,239 --> 00:47:27,080
Speaker 2: into a big thing here in the country in terms

977
00:47:27,120 --> 00:47:30,320
Speaker 2: of congressional investigating. This could be basically become the next

978
00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:31,600
Speaker 2: like five oh one.

979
00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:32,040
Speaker 3: C three thing.

980
00:47:32,080 --> 00:47:33,640
Speaker 2: That's one of the reasons we want to get to

981
00:47:33,680 --> 00:47:35,160
Speaker 2: the bottom of it here on the show.