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Speaker 1: This is Bloombird Law with June Brussel from Bloombird Radio.

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Speaker 1: Election integrity is now law in a satisfaction. Before Texas

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Speaker 1: Governor Greg Abbott had even signed the controversial law restricting voting,

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Speaker 1: lawsuits had been filed challenging it. I feel extremely confident

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Speaker 1: that when this law makes it through the litigation phase,

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Speaker 1: it will be upheld in a court of law because

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Speaker 1: exactly what we've said, it does make it easier for

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Speaker 1: people to be able to go vote. But at least

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Speaker 1: five lawsuits that have been filed in federal court disagree,

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Speaker 1: targeting the law and a variety of ways and arguing

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Speaker 1: that the new restrictions negatively impact the ability of people

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Speaker 1: of color, the elderly, and the disabled to cast their balance.

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Speaker 1: Joining these elections, law expert Richard Biffald, a professor Columbia

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Speaker 1: Law School, rich tell us about some of the main

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Speaker 1: provisions of the law. So this is the law adopted

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Speaker 1: after extensive fighting in the state legislature, including a boycott

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Speaker 1: by the Democrats, that basically makes voting harder in Texas

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Speaker 1: in the number of ways, one or two ways. That

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Speaker 1: actually liberalizes a few things in terms of early voting

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Speaker 1: in rural areas. But mostly it makes it harder that

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Speaker 1: it increases the requirements for obtaining an absent ue ballot,

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Speaker 1: and especially it puts limitations on local elections officials who

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Speaker 1: were trying to make voting easier in some ways. That's

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Speaker 1: some of the most striking things about it is stripping

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Speaker 1: local officials of the ability to do some of the

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Speaker 1: things that some of them did last time. Like the

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Speaker 1: Harris County, which is Houston, the had lots of dropbox

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Speaker 1: at four hour voting, used mobile voting in a these

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Speaker 1: vans or buses to go around the city. The Harris

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Speaker 1: County clerk wanted to send out absentee ballot applications to

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Speaker 1: every registered voter. All of these things that they either

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Speaker 1: did or tried to do would now be prohibited and

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Speaker 1: there would be penalties, in some cases criminal penalties, either

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Speaker 1: for the clerk personally or for the county in terms

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Speaker 1: of five mind and the possibility of removal of the

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Speaker 1: local election officials who go beyond the law and make

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Speaker 1: voting easier in ways that follow and opera hits. So

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Speaker 1: some of it is making it harder for individuals to vote.

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Speaker 1: A lot of it is targeted on local officials who

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Speaker 1: are trying to make it easier to vote. One of

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Speaker 1: the provisions that struck me is the poll watching provision,

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Speaker 1: because that nes lead to voter intimidation. Right, that's another

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Speaker 1: feature of the law. And actually Texas and not alone

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Speaker 1: in this, a number of states have adopted laws designed

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Speaker 1: to strengthen the ability of full watchers. Poll Watchers are people,

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Speaker 1: not public officials. People are designated by their parties or

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Speaker 1: by other interest groups to be at the polling place.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes they're also at the separate places where the ballots

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Speaker 1: are counted to observe. But this one basically strengthens the

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Speaker 1: ability to sort of observe everything and provides for penalties

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Speaker 1: criminal penalties on the part of election officials if they

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Speaker 1: in any way intershere with the ability of poll watches

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Speaker 1: to observe. And of course, not all poll watchers are

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Speaker 1: well trained. Not all poll watchers may be acting in

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Speaker 1: good faith, and this could be the basis for voter

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Speaker 1: intimidation or just disruption of the voting process. It it

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Speaker 1: greatly reduces the ability of election officials to manage the

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Speaker 1: polling places in a way that makes it safe and

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Speaker 1: effective for voters. By really empowering what are often political

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Speaker 1: people who are there at the polling place to intrude

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Speaker 1: more deeply into both the voting process and later the

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Speaker 1: ballotcounting process. There are at least five federal lawsuits now

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Speaker 1: and they seem to cover the gamut arguing the law

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Speaker 1: violates the Voting Rights Act, the Americans with Disabilities Act,

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Speaker 1: the Civil Rights Act, and the first fourteenth and fifteenth Amendments.

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Speaker 1: So considered together, they cover a lot of legal ground. Well.

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Speaker 1: A numbers on on the A d A is the

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Speaker 1: law putin a lot of restrictions on the ability of

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Speaker 1: people to the systems when they're voting, and many of

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Speaker 1: those may bump up against rights that voters with disabilities

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Speaker 1: have up under the ADA to receive a system when

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Speaker 1: they're voting. And so I think one big strand is that.

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Speaker 1: Another is particularly dealing with voting by mail. The law

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Speaker 1: includes many more requirements of what you have to put

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Speaker 1: in or include with your application for an early voting

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Speaker 1: or vote by mail ballot that may disproportionately burden minority voters,

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Speaker 1: younger voters, voters for their disability, language, minority voters in particular,

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Speaker 1: who are protected by the voting Rights Act, So there

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Speaker 1: is an argument. I think that these new requirements are

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Speaker 1: going to burden a lot of voters and make it

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Speaker 1: harder for many people to vote. The Supreme Court weaken

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Speaker 1: the Voting Rights Act earlier this year, will that impact

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Speaker 1: these cases? I think they's gonna make them harder. It

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Speaker 1: may have less of an impact on the cases brought

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Speaker 1: on behalf of voters with disabilities, because that's a whole

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Speaker 1: different statute and that has different requirements. I mean that

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Speaker 1: there'll be that questions about just how much is this

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Speaker 1: a burden on voters with disabilities, how much will make

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Speaker 1: it harder for them to vote? But I think on

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Speaker 1: the others the burden is going to be higher. Now

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Speaker 1: on the plaintiffs to show that it's going to affect

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Speaker 1: a lot of voters, that these burdens really make it

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Speaker 1: hard to vote, and that the state's justifications are really

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Speaker 1: sin And the reasoning in the Spring Court opinion last

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Speaker 1: time was a lot of these restrictions they have voters

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Speaker 1: of color more than white, but they don't affect a

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Speaker 1: lot of voters. So one big thing that the plintifs

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Speaker 1: are gonna have to show is that these actually could

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Speaker 1: affect a lot of voters. The second thing that they're

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Speaker 1: going to have to show is that the justification for

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Speaker 1: this is pretty fin The spoint courts seem to be

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Speaker 1: willing to accept fraud er ballot integrity, let's face value.

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Speaker 1: So I think that the burden is going to be

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Speaker 1: harder on the plaintiffs for that. So it sounds like

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Speaker 1: an uphill battle. I think it is an uphill battle,

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Speaker 1: and that there are also some arguments under the Texas

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Speaker 1: Constitution and other things. But I think that one of

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Speaker 1: the consequences of the Supreme Court decision is that these

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Speaker 1: cases are going to be harder to bring, and not

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Speaker 1: out of the question that they are gonna be harder

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Speaker 1: to bring. I mean, the Supreme Court that case didn't

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Speaker 1: literally rule on a lot of the issues that the

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Speaker 1: plaintiffs are going to raise. That case really dealt with

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Speaker 1: two very specific points. A lot of the issues that

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Speaker 1: the plintiffs are going to raise here deal with entirely

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Speaker 1: different changes to the voting system, ones that have potentially

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Speaker 1: much greater impact. So I don't think it's over, but

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Speaker 1: I do think the burden is going to be higher.

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Speaker 1: Is it possible that Texas could be subject once again?

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Speaker 1: To preclearance requirements under the Voting Rights Act, if evidence

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Speaker 1: is developed that Texas Republicans are systematically discriminating against people

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Speaker 1: of color, and pre clearance would require Texas to get

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Speaker 1: federal approval before making any changes to voting I mean,

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Speaker 1: I think it's theoretically possible. So the Supreme Court struck

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Speaker 1: down the provision of the law that said that certain

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Speaker 1: states and counties were automatically subject to preclearance based on

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Speaker 1: voting laws and voting practices of a while ago. That

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Speaker 1: part's gone, but there is still a provision of the

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Speaker 1: law that says that if you engage in serious voting

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Speaker 1: rights violations, now a court, as part of its remedy,

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Speaker 1: could put you under preclearance for a period of time.

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Speaker 1: And that's the idea. That's the so called bail in

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Speaker 1: as a conscious of bail out. As a remedy for

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Speaker 1: proven serious violation, you could be said that preclits going

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Speaker 1: for it. That's still the law, so that would be

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Speaker 1: a possibility. Hasn't been done much, and I definitely haven't

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Speaker 1: been done much lately, but that laws on the books,

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Speaker 1: and if a court were to conclude that these are

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Speaker 1: serious violations, and maybe that Texas has often committed serious

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Speaker 1: voting rights violations. Then I think it's possible. Two controversial

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Speaker 1: laws brought Texas into the national spotlight this week, this

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Speaker 1: voting law and the abortion law. And the same Republican

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Speaker 1: state senator was the main author of both bills. What

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Speaker 1: does that tell you if anything, Well, it sounds like

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Speaker 1: he's an activist. I mean, I don't know anything about him,

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Speaker 1: but it sounds like it's consisting with somebody viewing these things,

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Speaker 1: that these are both really ideologically motivated, that part of

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Speaker 1: a broader agenda rather than responsive to specific problems in

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Speaker 1: specific areas. This has been a record shattering year for

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Speaker 1: voting restrictions, according to the Brennan Center, which states seem

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Speaker 1: to have the most restrictive new laws. Well, I obviously Texas,

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Speaker 1: Georgia early on past the very restrictive law, which I

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Speaker 1: think is being challenged in court. I think Iowa revised

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Speaker 1: its laws to be more restrictive. And again, uh, the

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Speaker 1: ones that I follow most closely, the ones that are

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Speaker 1: targeting local officials. So I know that Iowa did that. Um,

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Speaker 1: I think those are the states that I'm most familiar with,

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Speaker 1: but I don't think they're alone. And I'm not sure

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Speaker 1: it's done yet. Um. Yeah, I mean the legislatures maybe

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Speaker 1: most of what they're done, but they may come back

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Speaker 1: in the fall or even in January, because the next

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Speaker 1: major elections are going to be in obviously next November.

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Speaker 1: So UM, you know, I think, um, something like uh,

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Speaker 1: it doesn't doesn't matters. Have states have enacted restrictive laws?

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Speaker 1: I think I think I left time I saw was

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Speaker 1: eighteen UM. But um, I think the states with the

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Speaker 1: strongest restrictions, uh would be Texas, Georgia, Iowa, maybe Florida. UM.

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Speaker 1: Other restrictions have passed in Arkansas and Montana UM. And

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Speaker 1: they have many that many of them are focused on

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Speaker 1: absentee voting, vote by mail, early voting, and some of

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Speaker 1: them are designed to pull back on local issues. Who

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Speaker 1: in the last election adopted new adopted innovations designed to

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Speaker 1: make it easier for people to vote. So now are

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Speaker 1: there two voting rights bills in Congress right now? I

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Speaker 1: think there are. One is designed to be more narrowly targeted,

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Speaker 1: the John Lewis one, and the others the broader one.

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Speaker 1: This design, I think that John Lewis one is is

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Speaker 1: more of a so called voting rights at restoration one

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Speaker 1: design really to get around the Supreme Court decisions that

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Speaker 1: cut back on the voting rights AT. And I think

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Speaker 1: the other one is there the four the people AT

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Speaker 1: or maybe the remains of the four the people that

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Speaker 1: which deal with UM a lot of other issues. But

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Speaker 1: to go back to the new lows for a second,

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Speaker 1: I just think in terms of their common themes are

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Speaker 1: restricting the available ability or making it harder, built by mail,

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Speaker 1: making it harder to for early voting, UM, restricting the

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Speaker 1: availability of things like drop boxes. They really have a

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Speaker 1: kind of scene making it harder, making prohibiting providing snacks

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Speaker 1: and order to voters reading online. UM. They really do

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Speaker 1: have UM. They have common semes, I think increasing voter

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Speaker 1: idea requirements. Do you think that having a federal voting

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Speaker 1: rights law is the only way to cure these problems

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Speaker 1: or can it be done on a state by state

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Speaker 1: basis with lawsuits? Frankly, I think the main way to

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Speaker 1: do it would be a new federal laws. One way,

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Speaker 1: of course, to be to change the politics of these

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Speaker 1: states and to change who's in the legislatures and who

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Speaker 1: the governors are. That's harder, but that would be long term.

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Speaker 1: The most important, there may be some possible state law challenges.

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Speaker 1: Some state constitutions are more protective of voting rights in

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Speaker 1: the federal constitutions, and it's conceivable bit in some states

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Speaker 1: that might happen. But the main way to do what

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Speaker 1: I think would be federal law laws. The federal laws

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Speaker 1: are protect the rights to vote in federal elections, but

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Speaker 1: since most state elections occur at the same time as

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Speaker 1: federal elections, they would inevitably pick up and protect voting

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Speaker 1: in state elections too. Thanks for being on the show,

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Speaker 1: rich that's Professor Richard Brufault of Columbia Law School. Bill

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Speaker 1: Barr served as a seventy seven U S Attorney General

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Speaker 1: in the administration of President George H. W. Bush and

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Speaker 1: the U S Attorney General in the administration of President

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump. It was Bar's second tenure as attorney general

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Speaker 1: that was so controversial, from his treatment of the Mulla

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Speaker 1: Report to his intervention in the sentencing of former National

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Speaker 1: security advisor Michael Flynn. Former federal prosecutor Elie Honing has

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Speaker 1: written about Barr's tenure as attorney general under Trump. His

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Speaker 1: book is entitled Hatchetmam, How Bill Barr Broke the Prosecutor's

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Speaker 1: code and corrupted the Justice Department. And he joins me. Now, so,

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Speaker 1: first of all, why do you think that Bill Barr

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Speaker 1: sought out the atorney general's role for a second time

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Speaker 1: and under former President Trump? Yeah, that is a great question.

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Speaker 1: So Bill Barr was one of two people in our

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Speaker 1: country's history who ever served as United States Attorney General twice,

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Speaker 1: and he did it about twenty five years apart. He

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Speaker 1: was George H. W. Bush's Attorney General from ninety one

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Speaker 1: until early ninety three, and then about a quarter of

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Speaker 1: a century later, came in under Donald Trump. Why would

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Speaker 1: he do it again? So I posited a couple of

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Speaker 1: things in the book. Number one, look, the man loved power.

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Speaker 1: He sought power. Being the United States Attorney General carries

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Speaker 1: unthinkable power. Um. Number two is he had a very

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Speaker 1: strong legal agenda. Bill Barr Um has long been a

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Speaker 1: member of the Federalist Society UM. And Bill barr himself

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Speaker 1: has even more extreme views of the way our government

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Speaker 1: should be set up, that the president should essentially be

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Speaker 1: all powerful. Now, I argue in the book that Bill

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Speaker 1: bar took that way too far beyond the scope of

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Speaker 1: our laws and our constitution to a dangerous extent to

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Speaker 1: protect Donald Trump. And then, lastly, one of the things

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Speaker 1: we discovered in putting the book together as Bill Board

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Speaker 1: really is a religious zealot and extremists. And I don't mean,

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Speaker 1: I don't faultivate any respect for being a religious person,

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Speaker 1: But what I do criticize is that he brought to

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Speaker 1: governments of view that all of our laws should be

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Speaker 1: based on what he calls God's law, and that Christianity

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Speaker 1: is sort of the supreme moral rules for governing society.

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Speaker 1: He wrote about that and spoke about that extensively, and

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Speaker 1: he tried to impose that through his job as Attorney General.

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Speaker 1: During his confirmation hearings, did he fool people? Did he

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Speaker 1: tell the truth? He uh, He definitely soft pedaled what

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Speaker 1: he had done. The big issue at Bill Barr's confirmation

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Speaker 1: hearing is that he had written a memo a few

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Speaker 1: months before this, when it was clear that the AG's

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Speaker 1: job was about to become open, because Donald Trump was

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Speaker 1: by this point openly berating Jeb Sessions, who was his

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Speaker 1: Attorney general, over the Mother investigation. Now, Bill Ball, on

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Speaker 1: his own, no one asked him, unsolicited, wrote this twenty

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Speaker 1: page memo explaining why Mueller's investigation was and I quote

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Speaker 1: Bill bar here fatally misconceived. And then Bill Barr went

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Speaker 1: out and did media and said the Mueller's investigation was

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Speaker 1: and again I quote Bill bar at the nine. So

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Speaker 1: he's obviously already made a decision about what he's going

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Speaker 1: to do with this case. He's obviously pre judged this

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Speaker 1: case conclusively. And so at his confirmation hearing, he was

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Speaker 1: drilled about that, and he tried to weazle around and say, well,

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Speaker 1: I would, of course evaluate the facts impartially when I

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Speaker 1: take office, and I only expressed my opinion on a

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Speaker 1: very narrow question of law, which of course was the

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Speaker 1: exact question at the heart of the Mueller investigation. And

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Speaker 1: as a result, virtually every Democrat opposed Bill bar Butt.

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Speaker 1: The Republicans held the White House, in the in the

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Speaker 1: Senate at the time, and he got through on the

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Speaker 1: strength of a party line boat. And then when he

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Speaker 1: got into office, he did exactly what he had forecast

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Speaker 1: that he would do, and he declared, with sort of

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Speaker 1: a wave of the hand in conclusivey fashion, no nothing

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Speaker 1: to see here, Trump, no obstruction of justice, Move along.

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Speaker 1: And I think he was both dishonest and incorrect in

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Speaker 1: drawing that conclusion and explain what he did during the

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Speaker 1: Muller investigation so that it would come to that conclusion. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So Bill Barr's sort of original sin was this. He

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Speaker 1: was essentially the first person outside of Muller's team to

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Speaker 1: receive the Buller report. He got it on a Friday,

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Speaker 1: March toy tewod of nine, and then two days later

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Speaker 1: on a Sunday. He didn't even take a weekend. He

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Speaker 1: declared that this four forty eight page single space report

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Speaker 1: from Uller, I'm doubtfully even would have had a chance

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Speaker 1: to read it in that time, never mind to digest

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Speaker 1: it and reach a thorough conclusion. Barges came out and

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Speaker 1: declared no obstruction of justice, and he completely distorted the

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Speaker 1: findings in the report. He issued a four page letter

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Speaker 1: of Bill bar did that gave basically all the good

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Speaker 1: stuff for Donald Trump and left out all the bad stuff. Um,

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Speaker 1: and you know it's been look, don't don't take it

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Speaker 1: for me. Multiple federal judges have said that Bill bar

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Speaker 1: was dishonest in that letter. Robert Mueller himself wrote a

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Speaker 1: letter to Bill bar complaining that Bill Barr had mischaracterized

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Speaker 1: the report the problem was, first, impressions are so powerful,

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Speaker 1: and the first thing we in the public and Congress

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Speaker 1: ever heard about the Muller Report officially was Bill Barr's misleading,

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Speaker 1: dishonest for page letter. And here's what's especially deceitful by

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Speaker 1: Bill Barr. He held onto the actual Mother Report. He

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Speaker 1: refused to release it for twenty seven more days. He

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Speaker 1: claimed he was doing redactions, which I've done. There's no way.

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Speaker 1: It took twenty seven days, and a federal judge later

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Speaker 1: found that he that that was a pretext. But during

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Speaker 1: that basically one month, Bill bars false version of the

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Speaker 1: report had the stage to itself and Donald Trump and

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Speaker 1: all of his supporters declared victory, game over, walked away,

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Speaker 1: and by the time the Mother Report came out a

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Speaker 1: month later, it was too late to really reverse public perception.

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Speaker 1: So do you think that he was doing this because

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Speaker 1: he truly believes in the concept of the unitary executive is?

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Speaker 1: I think yes. I think there was two reasons, and

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Speaker 1: and the related First, I do believe that Bill bar

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Speaker 1: and it's not even a question of believing. He has

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Speaker 1: said that he believes that the president not only is

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Speaker 1: the most powerful person in the executive branch, but is

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Speaker 1: the executive branch. And in Bill Barr's view, therefore, how

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Speaker 1: could the Justice Department, which is part of the executive branch,

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Speaker 1: charge the president who is the executive branch. So Bar

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Speaker 1: has written and spoken about that sort of I believe unsupportable,

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Speaker 1: unsustainable view of the law and constitutionality. And I think Bar, look,

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Speaker 1: he's also a pragmatist, and he and he understood that

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump was his meal ticket. Donald Trump was his

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Speaker 1: ticket to power and to come into office and immediately say,

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Speaker 1: you know, look this before it came out, it's very

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Speaker 1: damaging for the president, and Congress ought to consider impeachment,

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Speaker 1: and we ought to consider indicting him when he's out

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Speaker 1: of office, given d o J policy to prevent it.

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Speaker 1: Indicting a sitting president. That would have done enormous political

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Speaker 1: damage to Donald Trump. And Bill bar repeatedly, uh bent

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Speaker 1: his principles, sent the facts, sent the law to protect

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump. A theme through your book is that Bill

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Speaker 1: Barr was never a prosecutor in the sense if he

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Speaker 1: never tried a case himself, and that that's sort of

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Speaker 1: affected the way he executed his role as Attorney General.

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Speaker 1: Explain why you think it's so important that someone who's

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Speaker 1: at the top making broad decisions should have had trial experience.

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Speaker 1: One of the main issues that Bill Barr had throughout

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Speaker 1: his time as a g was, as he said, he

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Speaker 1: never tried a case, and I think that really hampered

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Speaker 1: him because as a result, he never learned, he never internalized,

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Speaker 1: he never appreciated all of the vital lessons that you

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Speaker 1: learned when you do try cases as I did. Uh,

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Speaker 1: the sanctity of the courtroom, of telling the truth. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's so fundamental, but it was, you know, it embedded

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Speaker 1: in me so deeply that you never exaggerate, you never

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Speaker 1: twist the fact you always own up. Even when something's bad,

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Speaker 1: you own up and you deal with it. Um the stakes,

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Speaker 1: the respect for all, respect for the process, respect for defendants,

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Speaker 1: respect for victims. Um to the idea that you don't

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Speaker 1: undercut your colleagues. Uh, certainly not publicly. You know, the

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Speaker 1: idea that if you have any potential conflict of interest,

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Speaker 1: you get yourself off the case because otherwise it's gonna

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Speaker 1: undermine public confidence. All of those things are lessons that

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Speaker 1: I learned the hard way. And I talked about a

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Speaker 1: lot of the stories that I have from when I

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Speaker 1: was a prosecutor, often involving me messing things up or

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Speaker 1: getting yelled at by a judge or something like that.

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Speaker 1: For Bill bar never never had those experiences. I'm not

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Speaker 1: saying that as a result he was incapable entirely of

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Speaker 1: being a good Attorney General. There have been ages in

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Speaker 1: the past who had no trial experience who were widely respected,

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Speaker 1: Edward Levy being one, And there were ages who had

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Speaker 1: trial experience who were widely regarded as being disasters, Jeff

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Speaker 1: Sessions being one. But I think that was one important

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Speaker 1: factor that really caused Bill Barr to do a disservice

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Speaker 1: as Attorney General to the American public. What I liked

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Speaker 1: about your book is you we've int worries about your

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Speaker 1: time as a prosecutor with your critique of Bill Barr.

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Speaker 1: I included those stories in the book for a couple

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Speaker 1: of reasons. I want to just say a basic level,

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Speaker 1: I think they're They're fun and interesting and fascinating. People

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Speaker 1: want to know what's it really like to be a

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Speaker 1: prosecutor at the s d n Y right, what happens

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Speaker 1: behind closed doors, what's it like when prosecutors get together

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Speaker 1: and have lunch, what do they talk about? Also, what's

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Speaker 1: it like in the well of the court room. What's

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Speaker 1: it like what a judge is bearing down on you,

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Speaker 1: what's it like when your witnesses collapsing before he's about

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Speaker 1: to take the stand, having a breakdown. And I tell

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Speaker 1: those stories because I think it's interesting, but also because

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Speaker 1: each one of those stories draws out and I think

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Speaker 1: brings to life. One of the principles that I talked about,

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Speaker 1: I call it the prosecutor's code, one of those lessons

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Speaker 1: that you learn only through sort of hard fought experience.

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Speaker 1: And then I relate it to one of the many

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Speaker 1: scandals in Bill Barr's tenure. How he you know, how

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Speaker 1: do he learned this lesson the way I did? Maybe

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Speaker 1: he wouldn't have gone down this road. Maybe he wouldn't

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Speaker 1: have lied the way he did. Maybe he wouldn't have, um,

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Speaker 1: you know, played politics the way he did. So that's

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Speaker 1: why that's the way I try to blend in those

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Speaker 1: stories throughout throughout the book. One incident you talk about

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Speaker 1: Michael Flynn, the former National Security advisor, and that was

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Speaker 1: so strange. What happened there? Why do you think he

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Speaker 1: decided not to plead guilty? After he had pleaded guilty

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Speaker 1: twice in court. Well, I think what happened from Bill

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Speaker 1: Barr's perspective, I can reduce to one word, which is politics.

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Speaker 1: So Michael Flynn fled guilty not once, but twice because

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Speaker 1: of a strange procedural hiccup. And he cooperated. Let's not forget,

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Speaker 1: he cooperated for a long time with Mother's office. Successfully,

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Speaker 1: Mother's office put in letters to the judge saying his

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Speaker 1: cooperation has been productive and is ongoing. And then Michael Flynn,

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Speaker 1: as you say, got cold feet and he suddenly decided

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Speaker 1: on out and that caused a breakdown um in the case. Now,

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Speaker 1: when he did that, Michael Flynn would ordinarily have been

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Speaker 1: exposing himself to jail time. That the worst thing you

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Speaker 1: can do is a defendant, is to start cooperating and

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Speaker 1: plead guilty and then to change your mind. It's too late. However, However,

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Speaker 1: Bill Barr then rode to the rescue and took the

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Speaker 1: absolutely unprecedented steps of arguing to adjudge to throw out

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Speaker 1: Michael Flynn's own guilty plea, the conviction that Bill Barr's

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Speaker 1: own justice department had come up with. And I argue

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Speaker 1: in the book. Look, there, there's only two possibilities here.

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Speaker 1: Either Michael Flynn just sort of lost it, lost his mind,

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Speaker 1: has become irrational. You know, he's he's doing things around

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Speaker 1: this Q organization. He said things that are you know,

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Speaker 1: out of their talking points. Maybe the guy just lost it,

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Speaker 1: but maybe he's acting out of self interest, and he was.

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Speaker 1: If he was acting out of self interest, then somebody

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Speaker 1: would have he would have had to have had some

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Speaker 1: confidence that he would be rescued either by the President

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Speaker 1: through pardon, which did end up eventually happening later, and

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Speaker 1: or by some other means. And that's exactly what happened.

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Speaker 1: D O J came in. Bill Barr handled oversaw tens

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Speaker 1: of thousands of cases in the time as Attorney General.

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Speaker 1: He only ever came to the rescue of some in

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Speaker 1: Michael Flynn's position once. That was for Michael Flynn. There's

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Speaker 1: no way to ignore that. That's political. Another very strange

433
00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:10,480
Speaker 1: thing that happened was what you call in your book

434
00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:14,320
Speaker 1: the s d N Y takeover, which was Bill Barr

435
00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:17,600
Speaker 1: saying that the U. S. Attorney from Manhattan was resigning,

436
00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:19,920
Speaker 1: and then the U. S Attorney from Manhattan, Jeffrey Burman,

437
00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:23,159
Speaker 1: saying no, I'm not resigning. Well, this is another example

438
00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:25,080
Speaker 1: of Bill Barn lying to the public. Bill Barr came

439
00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:27,480
Speaker 1: out it was late on a Friday night, a few

440
00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:30,080
Speaker 1: months before the election, in let's think it was June,

441
00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:33,480
Speaker 1: and Bill Barr announced that Jeffrey Burman, the U S

442
00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:35,320
Speaker 1: Attorney for the Southern District of New York, where I

443
00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:37,240
Speaker 1: used to work. I don't know Burman, I never met

444
00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:39,920
Speaker 1: him or worked under him. But Bill Barr announced Jeffrey

445
00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:42,840
Speaker 1: Burman will be stepping down, and Jeffrey Burman an hour

446
00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:45,360
Speaker 1: or two later publicly said no, I'm not. I don't

447
00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:47,720
Speaker 1: know what he's talking about. So that's just a lie.

448
00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:51,399
Speaker 1: Why Because the sd NL has so many powerful cases,

449
00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:55,080
Speaker 1: so many cases that could have damaged Donald Trump. And

450
00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:58,040
Speaker 1: remember we're down the stretch of the election at this point,

451
00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:00,520
Speaker 1: and Bill Barr felt that he could know under control

452
00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:02,720
Speaker 1: Jeffrey Burman, which, by the way, is as it should be.

453
00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:06,040
Speaker 1: The Southern District where I worked at famously independent lawyers

454
00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:08,359
Speaker 1: say it's the quote sovereign District of New York. A

455
00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:10,960
Speaker 1: little I guess lawyer jokes talking about how the Southern

456
00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:15,560
Speaker 1: District has sort of unequal powered unequals independence, and at

457
00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:18,360
Speaker 1: that moment, there was so many cases pending in front

458
00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:20,480
Speaker 1: of the SDN why that could have damaged Trump. The

459
00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:24,040
Speaker 1: investigation of Rudy Giuliani, an investigation into Hawk Bank, a

460
00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:27,880
Speaker 1: powerful Turkish bank which had tied to the administration. UM,

461
00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:30,840
Speaker 1: you know, the the continuing investigation of not just Jeffrey

462
00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:34,679
Speaker 1: Epstein but his confederates, including Lane Maxwell. UM. There was

463
00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:37,640
Speaker 1: a whole litany of cases and that the FDNY was handling.

464
00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:41,280
Speaker 1: And it's become clear now that barn Trump, and this

465
00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:44,240
Speaker 1: has been confirmed by the way, by by more recent reporting,

466
00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:46,560
Speaker 1: that barn Trump didn't want to take that risk of

467
00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:49,320
Speaker 1: Burman doing something that might harm Trump politically, and so

468
00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:52,560
Speaker 1: they took the really unusual step of firing their own

469
00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:55,760
Speaker 1: U S. Attorney. Burman was chosen by Donald Trump, appointed

470
00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:59,280
Speaker 1: by Donald Trump. UM firing their own U S. Attorney

471
00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:02,399
Speaker 1: really a few months before the election. That there's no

472
00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:08,040
Speaker 1: modern equivalent of that happening. So now we have Attorney

473
00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:11,879
Speaker 1: General Merrick Garland, who has all the background that you

474
00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:15,240
Speaker 1: would want an attorney general. He was a prosecutor, he

475
00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:18,040
Speaker 1: was on the front line, he was a supervisor, He

476
00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:22,680
Speaker 1: handled huge cases. Does it seem as if he's letting

477
00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:26,680
Speaker 1: some of the abuses of the Justice Department under Bill

478
00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:34,040
Speaker 1: Barr go unaddressed, unchallenged. It does, uh, and I've been

479
00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:37,080
Speaker 1: critical of Merrick Garland in that respect. I'll give you

480
00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:40,520
Speaker 1: one example. Um. Bill Barr decided to use the Justice

481
00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:43,159
Speaker 1: Department to defend Donald Trump in the lawsuit up by E.

482
00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:45,560
Speaker 1: Gene Carol. This is the writer who alleged the Donald

483
00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:48,080
Speaker 1: Trump had raped her in a department store in New

484
00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:51,480
Speaker 1: York City in the ninety nineties. Donald Trump then viciously

485
00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:53,840
Speaker 1: lashed out of her cult liars that she's and I

486
00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:57,280
Speaker 1: quote Donald Trump not my type. Um and live and E. G.

487
00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:00,560
Speaker 1: Carol sue Donald Trump for defamation. Bill bar made the

488
00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:03,639
Speaker 1: determination that well, Donald Trump's comments that he made about E. G.

489
00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:06,560
Speaker 1: And Carol were within the scope of his official duties,

490
00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:09,360
Speaker 1: which is a ridiculous decision. Therefore, d o J will

491
00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:11,639
Speaker 1: represent him and therefore, and if that happens, then the

492
00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:13,600
Speaker 1: case will be thrown out. Now, I said at the

493
00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:15,639
Speaker 1: time that was wrong by Bill Barr. I said it

494
00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:18,920
Speaker 1: was politically motivated and legally wrong. And a federal judge

495
00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:22,640
Speaker 1: for the SDN, wise Louis Kaplan, later took the same position.

496
00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:25,639
Speaker 1: He said, no, that's not within the president's job, that

497
00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:28,840
Speaker 1: you can't do that. Bill Barr's uh d o J

498
00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:32,080
Speaker 1: then appealed, Now Merrick Garland takes over. And I thought

499
00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:34,480
Speaker 1: it was an easy call. Merrick Garland should have said

500
00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:36,600
Speaker 1: we're gonna drop this case. We're not defending the president.

501
00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:39,440
Speaker 1: But Merrick Garland actually said, now we're going to continue

502
00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:41,960
Speaker 1: this appeal um, which I think is wrong as a

503
00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:44,320
Speaker 1: matter of law. And we've seen this from Merrick Farland

504
00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:46,439
Speaker 1: in other situations. And I think Merrick Arland has been

505
00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:49,280
Speaker 1: too timid as Attorney General. I think he's coming to

506
00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:52,960
Speaker 1: the job and it seems that his calculus is, will

507
00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:55,880
Speaker 1: this move be perceived as a shot across the bow

508
00:26:56,200 --> 00:26:59,400
Speaker 1: against Bill Barr, against Donald Trumper, against the prior administration?

509
00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:02,639
Speaker 1: If oh, I will do the opposite. And I argue

510
00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:04,360
Speaker 1: that if you're doing that, if that's the way you're

511
00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:06,840
Speaker 1: making your decisions, then you are playing politics and you're

512
00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:09,520
Speaker 1: not doing your job as a prosecutor and standing up

513
00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:13,000
Speaker 1: and making strong independent judgments. So um, But there are

514
00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:15,880
Speaker 1: other things that Merrick Garland has done better than Bill

515
00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:17,960
Speaker 1: bar He's nowhere near as corrupted. Bill Bar. He's not

516
00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:20,520
Speaker 1: been dishonest with the American public as Bill Bar, But

517
00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:23,359
Speaker 1: I do think Marith Arland needs to be stronger. You

518
00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:26,080
Speaker 1: have the book out and now you're starting a podcast.

519
00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:29,239
Speaker 1: Tell us about that. Yep, this is brand new. It's

520
00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:32,520
Speaker 1: called Up Against the Mob. It is war story, so

521
00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:34,760
Speaker 1: to speak, from my days as a mob prosecutor with

522
00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:36,960
Speaker 1: the Southern Districts of New York. You may not know

523
00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:38,720
Speaker 1: it from just seeing me on air, but I was

524
00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:41,520
Speaker 1: the chief co chief of the organized crime Unit. I

525
00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:46,640
Speaker 1: prosecuted over one hundred actual mobsters, bosses, captains on down

526
00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:50,440
Speaker 1: um and this podcast is sort of that experience through

527
00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:53,199
Speaker 1: me and other people who were in it. I interview

528
00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:56,359
Speaker 1: a former monster who became a cooperator. I interview a

529
00:27:56,480 --> 00:27:59,479
Speaker 1: well known defense lawyer. I interview an FBI agent who

530
00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:02,639
Speaker 1: went under cover, a psychologist who talked about the psychology

531
00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:05,000
Speaker 1: behind the mob. So, uh, we have a lot of

532
00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:06,479
Speaker 1: fun with it. I think people will love it if

533
00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:09,439
Speaker 1: you really want to again get those inside prosecutor at

534
00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:11,640
Speaker 1: c n Y stories and a lot of great inside

535
00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:14,600
Speaker 1: mobs stories. Check it out. If if you're good Fellers

536
00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:17,240
Speaker 1: and sopranos and stuff, those are great. But this is real, So,

537
00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:21,919
Speaker 1: uh take a listen. Thanks Sally. That's from our federal prosecutor,

538
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:25,600
Speaker 1: Ellie Honick. His new book is called hatchet Man, How

539
00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:29,880
Speaker 1: Bill bar broke the Prosecutor's Code and corrupted the Justice Department.

540
00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:32,640
Speaker 1: And that's it for the sedition of the Bloomberg Law Show.

541
00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:35,359
Speaker 1: Remember you could always at the latest legal news on

542
00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:39,360
Speaker 1: our Bloomberg Law Podcast. You can find them on Apple Podcasts, Spotify,

543
00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:44,240
Speaker 1: and www dot Bloomberg dot com, slash podcast Last Law.

544
00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:47,480
Speaker 1: I'm June Rosso and you're listening to Bloomberg