Speaker 1: This is the Anxiety Bites podcast and I am your host,
Speaker 1: Jen Kirkman. Today I am talking to all around anxiety
Speaker 1: expert Lisa Jacob, who also has anxiety and panic herself.
Speaker 1: Lisa was a child actor and she's most famous for
Speaker 1: her roles in Mrs. Doubt Fire and Independent State, two
Speaker 1: movies that came out in the nineties. I'm sure you're
Speaker 1: familiar no matter how old you are, but I wanted
Speaker 1: to talk to Lisa about making a change in your
Speaker 1: career now. She chose to leave her career in acting,
Speaker 1: but not exactly to immediately segue into helping people with anxiety.
Speaker 1: She wandered around for a while, not not exactly sure
Speaker 1: where life would eventually take her. And those kind of
Speaker 1: stories really intrigued me because that kind of uncertainty can
Speaker 1: so much anxiety, and for me being an entertainment myself,
Speaker 1: I wanted to start this podcast because something was calling
Speaker 1: me to do anything that I was qualified to do
Speaker 1: to help people, and I think I'm qualified to talk
Speaker 1: to people who can help you. Let's start there. Lisa
Speaker 1: and I talk about a lot of things. We bond
Speaker 1: over panic attacks. Now I will say this episode, I'm
Speaker 1: a little chatty. I just sometimes I just connect with
Speaker 1: a guest where I feel like we're just out for
Speaker 1: coffee together. And you might think, God, this is a
Speaker 1: lot of gin, but I just I don't know. I
Speaker 1: just wanted to tell her everything, and I did get
Speaker 1: to ask her every single thing I had planned. But
Speaker 1: you know, if you're still on the fence about me,
Speaker 1: you might be like, it's kind of a lot of
Speaker 1: gen in this episode. But maybe I had too much
Speaker 1: coffee that day. And you know, my A d h
Speaker 1: D makes me real chatty. Anyway, so today. Lisa is
Speaker 1: a mental wellness educator trained and specializing in workshop retreat facilitation.
Speaker 1: She creates custom content about anxiety for corporate events. She's
Speaker 1: a keynote speaker for all types of organizations. She teaches
Speaker 1: yoga and writing for managing anxiety, depression, or trauma. She's
Speaker 1: also the podcast host of I Said That Backwards, That's okay,
Speaker 1: I'm leaving it in. She's the host of the podcast
Speaker 1: Embrace You're Weird, where she talks very personally about her
Speaker 1: own anxiety and interviews a lot of veterans, and she
Speaker 1: does a lot of work with war veterans On PTSD.
Speaker 1: We get into how a former child actress is actually
Speaker 1: so instrumental in the lives of many veterans. As she
Speaker 1: calls herself, she is a pacifist Canadian vegetarian and she
Speaker 1: never thought it would be something she was doing either.
Speaker 1: She's written two books. One is called You Look Like
Speaker 1: That Girl, a child actor stops pretending and finally grows up.
Speaker 1: And her latest book, Not Just Me, Anxiety, Depression and
Speaker 1: Learning to Embrace You're Weird. Now, for any of you
Speaker 1: who have anxiety and you've never purchased a book about anxiety,
Speaker 1: I really recommend the book Not Just Me, because not
Speaker 1: only do you have Lisa's personal stories, you have stories
Speaker 1: from people that she has worked with as well, and
Speaker 1: she has a lot of facts about anxiety, panic, social anxiety.
Speaker 1: It's a really good starting point if you want a
Speaker 1: nice overall book that can help you feel like you're
Speaker 1: not the only one. It's not some doctor talking to
Speaker 1: you based on studies they've done, but it's a real person.
Speaker 1: And of course everything is linked in the show notes.
Speaker 1: So if you want to take one of Lisa's online
Speaker 1: anxiety management workshops, if you want to take one of
Speaker 1: her donation based yoga classes online, and of course, if
Speaker 1: you want to get her books, go to her website. Again,
Speaker 1: all of that is in the show notes. What I
Speaker 1: really like about Lisa is I can just tell that
Speaker 1: she is meant to do this because she lights up
Speaker 1: when she talks about helping other people with anxiety. And
Speaker 1: I'm so glad that she does what she does. We
Speaker 1: need seventy million more of her to help with I
Speaker 1: think what is probably a global pandemic, part two, which
Speaker 1: is anxiety. So I hope you enjoy my conversation with Lisa,
Speaker 1: and again, sorry for all the gim thank you for
Speaker 1: being here. Lisa, I'm really excited. I feel like you're
Speaker 1: a real um kindred spirit. Oh I'm I'm so thrilled
Speaker 1: to meet you and so excited to talk about all
Speaker 1: this stuff. Well, you know, I've I've been geeking out
Speaker 1: on your work all week. So I've been listening to
Speaker 1: your podcast. Which are you still doing? Are their new
Speaker 1: episodes up? Because I've been going way back. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: have a new episode that came out a couple of
Speaker 1: weeks ago. I'll agree. I work with a lot of veterans,
Speaker 1: and so my most recent episode was with someone who
Speaker 1: is actually currently in the military. Talking about moral injury
Speaker 1: and post traumatic stress and all those kinds of stuff.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, and your podcast is called Embrace Your Weird. Yes,
Speaker 1: it's so you guys will love it after of cour
Speaker 1: after you listen to this episode, go download Embrace Your Weird.
Speaker 1: Lisa is in her closet because the sound is best
Speaker 1: from there, and she is just it's a lot of
Speaker 1: the episodes are just you talking to us, and it's
Speaker 1: very soothing, and you're just you remind me of I'm
Speaker 1: gonna compliment myself right now. You remind me of me
Speaker 1: in the sense that when we talk about anxiety, we
Speaker 1: seem to light up, you know what I mean, which
Speaker 1: is strange, right, because it's a topic that I think
Speaker 1: most people are so reluctant to talk about, and then
Speaker 1: when they do talk about it, they kind of talk
Speaker 1: about it like this, and they get really quiet and
Speaker 1: just filled with shame. And then there are people like
Speaker 1: us who are like, oh my god, yeah, like, just
Speaker 1: crack this ship open, let's go, And yeah, I always
Speaker 1: feel so good when I can talk to somebody else
Speaker 1: who really kind of feels the same way, and we'll
Speaker 1: get through you know, your whole history of all your
Speaker 1: hearing anxieties and and all that. But it's interesting because
Speaker 1: so I I think you and I I'm a little older.
Speaker 1: So I don't mean to say you're my age I am.
Speaker 1: I am older everybody. Um, I'm four years older. And
Speaker 1: but I don't know if you relate to this growing
Speaker 1: up pre internet. I know you and I started having
Speaker 1: panic and anxiety attacks rather young, way before the Internet,
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, and like you, I felt like
Speaker 1: I was probably going insane, and I thought, once everyone
Speaker 1: finds out, I will live in a hospital the rest
Speaker 1: of my life. And you know, I was really not
Speaker 1: even trying to be funny. I really thought that. So
Speaker 1: I thought, keep this a secret as long as possible
Speaker 1: until I absolutely can't live this way, and then I'll
Speaker 1: basically like turn myself in, you know. And I was
Speaker 1: completely serious. I mean, I thought that was really you know,
Speaker 1: there was only your crazy like a bugs Bunny cartoon
Speaker 1: like boa and you're normal. There was nothing else that
Speaker 1: was it. Those were the two options. Yeah, And so
Speaker 1: I thought, I'm not normal, but I guess I'll wait
Speaker 1: until i'm you know, doing like the bugs Bunny cartoon
Speaker 1: and going so basically I felt really alone, right, and
Speaker 1: so then you know, years go by, and I I
Speaker 1: called myself like an anxious and recovering and former fear
Speaker 1: of flyer, and I still panic attacks a couple of
Speaker 1: times a year. But it's so like, oh whatever, you know.
Speaker 1: But I had this really naive notion that young people,
Speaker 1: although they have you know, obviously every generation has ridiculous
Speaker 1: things to deal with societally and personally. But I thought, well,
Speaker 1: the one area where young people are luckier than me
Speaker 1: is that they can just type the word anxiety into
Speaker 1: the computer and they'll get all the help they need,
Speaker 1: and there's so much free stuff out there and they
Speaker 1: won't feel alone. And I really thought that. And it
Speaker 1: wasn't until by being a comedian going on the road
Speaker 1: that young people were coming to my shows and they
Speaker 1: were saying um in the meet and greet line after Hey,
Speaker 1: thanks for talking about anxiety on stage, and I'd be like, oh,
Speaker 1: And the minute they say that, I write a story
Speaker 1: for them. Oh, they're in therapy, they're doing great. I'm like, oh, good,
Speaker 1: good to meet another one by. And I would get
Speaker 1: d M s from them on social media later after
Speaker 1: the show saying well, how do you handle it? And
Speaker 1: I'm like what do you mean you don't know, like
Speaker 1: not in a route weight, but like I'm blown away
Speaker 1: here that I thought maybe you guys had figured it out.
Speaker 1: And I realized where I was being a typical anxious
Speaker 1: person is that I thought I was the only like
Speaker 1: I knew I wasn't the only one who had anxiety,
Speaker 1: but I thought I was the only one who felt alone.
Speaker 1: And I thought it was because of the Internet not
Speaker 1: being there, And that's not what I mean. It could
Speaker 1: be one of the reasons, but that's why it's such
Speaker 1: an epidemic. Rights Even with all of the voices saying
Speaker 1: it's okay, I have anxiety too, and you can google
Speaker 1: it and a lot of help comes up, people still
Speaker 1: feel alone and ashamed, and that is heartbreaking. It really
Speaker 1: is heartbreaking. And that is exactly why I started doing
Speaker 1: the work that I do, because when I wrote my
Speaker 1: two books and went out and did book tours and was,
Speaker 1: you know, reading passages and doing talks in colleges and
Speaker 1: high schools, I would have that exact act the same
Speaker 1: situation where at the end of the talk people would
Speaker 1: come up to me, often times younger people, and be like,
Speaker 1: I have anxiety too. I've never told anyone I have
Speaker 1: no clue what to do about this, please help, And
Speaker 1: I think you know that first step. Even though some
Speaker 1: of the stigma is starting to diminish around this stuff,
Speaker 1: it can still be really hard to admit to yourself, Yeah,
Speaker 1: you're struggling with these things that you need help from
Speaker 1: someone else. And I think so a lot of us
Speaker 1: are still getting getting stuck with with labels and terminology
Speaker 1: and all those sorts of things. I've definitely gotten emails
Speaker 1: from people saying, you know, I know you do. You
Speaker 1: know help people anxiety, but you can't help me have
Speaker 1: it worse than anyone. And you know I I would
Speaker 1: if I were a psychiatrist, I would probably delve deeper
Speaker 1: into I think you want that to be true, just
Speaker 1: because it would be at least an answer. I can't
Speaker 1: be helped. I mean, no one wants to find out
Speaker 1: you can live with this every day and just feel
Speaker 1: a little bit um, you know, like you live with
Speaker 1: it every day and you have your your tools and
Speaker 1: your coping mechanisms. I don't know if that's all that
Speaker 1: attractive to people in the sense, right, Yeah, And I
Speaker 1: think it does become kind of like a security blanket
Speaker 1: in some ways. And I also find it really interesting,
Speaker 1: especially with people who are artists who have anxiety, who
Speaker 1: tie this idea of, well, my my art, my writing,
Speaker 1: my comedy, my music all comes from the same place
Speaker 1: that my anxiety or my depression comes from. So if
Speaker 1: I deal with my anxiety and my depression, what happens
Speaker 1: to my art? And I think we get really tied
Speaker 1: into this idea of like the tragic suffering artists. And
Speaker 1: I know personally that like, when I'm depressed, my writing
Speaker 1: is crap. That's right, Like I do better work when
Speaker 1: I feel okay, And so being able to kind of
Speaker 1: tap into well, what is it about feeling a little
Speaker 1: bit better that freaks you out? You know, what is
Speaker 1: it that you feel like you would have to let
Speaker 1: go of? Oh that's a great question. You know, what
Speaker 1: is it that you feel like you would then have
Speaker 1: to move forward and do if you weren't so burdened
Speaker 1: by the anxiety. So I think it gets super, super messy.
Speaker 1: Do you find that people's answers are once they tell
Speaker 1: you what they're afraid of, they're kind of illogical and
Speaker 1: like that that fear would never come to pass anyway,
Speaker 1: Or are they legitimate fears. I think it's a bit
Speaker 1: above I think for me, definitely, my my fears around it.
Speaker 1: We're we're illogical, but um yeah, I mean everybody is
Speaker 1: coming from a different place with it. Everybody gets different
Speaker 1: messages around what it means to have anxiety, to have
Speaker 1: mental wellness issues, you know, back from when we were
Speaker 1: a kid, like what messages did you get from your family?
Speaker 1: What did you see around you? And how are you
Speaker 1: carrying that forward into your into your life today. It's interesting.
Speaker 1: You know, Elizabeth Gilbert, the author of Course Um, in
Speaker 1: her book I Think It's Big Magic, she talks about
Speaker 1: that the artist as the you know, person that has
Speaker 1: demons and you know, I need my demons to do
Speaker 1: my art. And she says something I'm paraphrasing, like, well,
Speaker 1: the demons can inform what you want to talk about,
Speaker 1: the angels do the work. Something like that. Isn't that?
Speaker 1: So I totally got goose bumps with that. I got
Speaker 1: into just repeating you don't have to torture yourself and
Speaker 1: live that way. You recall, right, And so to any
Speaker 1: artists out there, trust me, you'll never forget how this
Speaker 1: anxiety feels. So if you need it for your art,
Speaker 1: and you get healthy, you'll be able to recall it
Speaker 1: no problem, you know. Um. But it's it's not even
Speaker 1: like I don't even think that's people's worry. They worry
Speaker 1: that it's like this is who I am, you know,
Speaker 1: and and they're allowed to change, you know, and to
Speaker 1: hell with anyone who doesn't like it, you know. Um.
Speaker 1: So that brings me to you, So okay when you um,
Speaker 1: I'm just looking at my notes because I get I've
Speaker 1: a d D. I'm like a d D theater. I'm like,
Speaker 1: I keep saying what I'm going to ask you, and
Speaker 1: then I keep being like, but wait, um, so you
Speaker 1: left acting at you were a child actor and you
Speaker 1: left acting in two thousand one at age twenty two.
Speaker 1: And I'm so fascinated by this because there's a million
Speaker 1: ways I could go with this, but I want to
Speaker 1: talk all around the sense of like the irony right
Speaker 1: of it wasn't acting that gave you anxiety, Like you
Speaker 1: just a person with anxiety happened to be an actor
Speaker 1: and you felt that there was just something else you
Speaker 1: needed to do, but you didn't know what it was yet.
Speaker 1: That is what's so interesting to me, is like you're
Speaker 1: getting this calling, but whoever's calling you is not giving
Speaker 1: you all the information. It's like you're getting hang up
Speaker 1: calls from your destiny and you're like, what am I
Speaker 1: supposed to? But you know you have to leave, and
Speaker 1: so you do. And it's such a great testament to
Speaker 1: patience and trusting and following your heart. But I know
Speaker 1: that you originally left thinking maybe wanted to be a writer,
Speaker 1: and so just take us through leaving and was there
Speaker 1: any sense in your head yet that you wanted to
Speaker 1: work with people who have anxiety? I love I love
Speaker 1: I love hearing like your interpretation of that story and
Speaker 1: that time because it makes me sound like I had
Speaker 1: my ship together and I was just really wise and
Speaker 1: intuitive and absolutely none of that is true. Um yeah,
Speaker 1: so I was. You know, I was twenty two, I
Speaker 1: was in l A. I had been working as an
Speaker 1: actor since I was four, so I was like eighteen
Speaker 1: years into this career. I had, you know, done Mrs
Speaker 1: out Fire, I had done Independence Day and everybody kept
Speaker 1: telling me I was living the dream life, like I
Speaker 1: had won the Golden ticket. I was doing the best
Speaker 1: possible thing with my life that a human who do.
Speaker 1: And I was miserable. I mean, my depression was really bad.
Speaker 1: I had horrible anxiety. I have a panic disorder, so
Speaker 1: I was having three and four panic attacks a day. Um,
Speaker 1: I was a mess. All I knew was that I
Speaker 1: did not want to be one of those stereotypical child
Speaker 1: actor train wrecks. I knew I did not want that
Speaker 1: to be my path. I was becoming increasingly aware of
Speaker 1: the realities of the film industry, the superficiality, the misogyny,
Speaker 1: the competition, all of those things that I didn't feel
Speaker 1: like that was an authentic part of my path forward.
Speaker 1: I had enjoyed my time being an actor, but I
Speaker 1: felt very strongly that it was done. I got thrown
Speaker 1: out of high school while filming, mused doubt fire, So
Speaker 1: I had never graduated from high school. Well, this is
Speaker 1: a great story too, if you want to share with
Speaker 1: my listeners, because I'm sure we'll have a lot of
Speaker 1: crossover from the comedy world. That the Robin Williams, sweet
Speaker 1: sweet sweet man that he is. I mean, I've only
Speaker 1: met him once. I didn't know him like you did,
Speaker 1: but that he wrote a letter to your high school, right,
Speaker 1: Yeah he did so. Um, we were a few months
Speaker 1: into filming doubtfire. I was doing correspondence school again pre
Speaker 1: internet uh learning back then, so I was, you know,
Speaker 1: sending my school work back and forth to to my
Speaker 1: high school. And my high school just sent a letter
Speaker 1: one time and said, you know, this is too much
Speaker 1: work for our teachers having to put together you know,
Speaker 1: steady packets for you, Um, don't come back when you
Speaker 1: finished filming. Don't come back. UM. Super devastating for a
Speaker 1: fourteen year old to have your formal education just sort
Speaker 1: of ended like that. And uh so Robin saw that
Speaker 1: I was upset and wrote a letter to my high school,
Speaker 1: which is which I still have. It's so sweet. I
Speaker 1: actually have it up on my website if anybody wants
Speaker 1: to see it. It's a m hello at Leasta Jacob
Speaker 1: dot com. But I will link it in the show notes.
Speaker 1: Will link it in the show notes. I was so
Speaker 1: touched by the letter that he wrote, just saying like, Hey,
Speaker 1: this kid is trying to balance her education and her career.
Speaker 1: Can you please like help her with that? And so
Speaker 1: the high school got the letter and they framed the
Speaker 1: letter and they put it up in the principal's office.
Speaker 1: But they didn't ask me to come back to school.
Speaker 1: And this was in Canada. The school wasn't we're from
Speaker 1: outside of Toronto. Yeah that is, But that doesn't that
Speaker 1: just encapsulate everything that is so weird about the way
Speaker 1: people react to someone in the business, Like, oh my god,
Speaker 1: a letter from Robin Williams. We're not gonna digest the
Speaker 1: content of it. We're just gonna idolize him, put it
Speaker 1: on the wall. But treat the real actor. We know
Speaker 1: in real life, bye bye, you can't come back. And
Speaker 1: then at the same time, you're hearing you're living the dream,
Speaker 1: and it's like, how nobody knows what you're living, you know,
Speaker 1: and it's if it's not the dream for you, it's
Speaker 1: not the dream. And I think that frustrates people, like
Speaker 1: who you're good at acting when you mean you don't
Speaker 1: love it. It's like, I don't know, maybe you were
Speaker 1: just only supposed to do it until you were, um,
Speaker 1: twenty two, you know, maybe you weren't supposed to do
Speaker 1: it forever. I really think that's true. I mean, and like,
Speaker 1: let's look at other people in quote unquote normal jobs, right,
Speaker 1: A lot of people do something for eighteen years and decide,
Speaker 1: you know, what, it's time to change paths, and it's
Speaker 1: not this huge dramatic thing where people are shocked and
Speaker 1: have opinions about it. Um. But I you know, I
Speaker 1: got to this point where I really felt like I
Speaker 1: needed to make a change. I needed to leave l
Speaker 1: A and I needed to try to figure out who
Speaker 1: I was underneath the actor, because that is who I
Speaker 1: had been since I was four years old. So it
Speaker 1: really took a while for me. I eventually got my
Speaker 1: g E D. I went to college. I had always
Speaker 1: loved writing, so I kind of went back to that
Speaker 1: did you study writing in college? I didn't because amazing
Speaker 1: because I was so terrified to let anybody read any
Speaker 1: of my writing. I couldn't handle doing it. In college,
Speaker 1: I studied sociology, um, because I felt like I didn't
Speaker 1: understand regular society. I felt like I had kind of
Speaker 1: grown up in this weird movie subculture. Yeah, it's almost
Speaker 1: like coming out of a cult. I mean, not as extreme,
Speaker 1: but it has its own languages and abbreviations. You know,
Speaker 1: it has a his own society. And so you're like, oh,
Speaker 1: here I am in a different world. You know. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we'll be right back after this coake message from one
Speaker 1: of our sponsors. So It wasn't until after college that
Speaker 1: I started writing more as as a way to really
Speaker 1: process my own feelings on leaving l A and trying
Speaker 1: to find my path forward. And I ended up writing
Speaker 1: my memoir because I wanted to just as sort of Catharsis,
Speaker 1: get it out and get on the page that memoir everybody, um,
Speaker 1: which I read it and it's great. It's called you
Speaker 1: Look like that Girl, a child actor stops pretending and
Speaker 1: finally grows up. Get it everywhere you get books. And
Speaker 1: I came out, yes, yeah, so you wrote your memoir
Speaker 1: after college? Yeah? And then you know, it was the
Speaker 1: thing that we just talked about that you know, people
Speaker 1: kept coming up to me because in the memoir I
Speaker 1: do talk about having anxiety, and they just said, can
Speaker 1: we please talk more about this? So there need to
Speaker 1: go a second book. Um. So the second second book
Speaker 1: is all about anxiety, depression, panicked trauma, and I interview
Speaker 1: a lot of other people and talk about kind of
Speaker 1: the latest research on what works and what doesn't, because
Speaker 1: I just felt like that was something that we all needed.
Speaker 1: This book is so great. It's uponed not just me,
Speaker 1: anxiety depression and learning to embrace your weird and what
Speaker 1: I love about this book too. I think if anyone
Speaker 1: has to buy one book about anxiety, to start with
Speaker 1: by this, because yeah, like you said, it's one chapter,
Speaker 1: will be your personal story, and then you give case
Speaker 1: examples and people you've worked with and you've worked with
Speaker 1: with war veterans, and I mean you get into every
Speaker 1: single kind of anxiety and panic and everything in this book.
Speaker 1: So highly recommend. So anyway, so you didn't really know
Speaker 1: that this was a career path until after the first
Speaker 1: memoir and then so then did you start working with
Speaker 1: people after that as you were writing the second book? Yeah,
Speaker 1: it kind of evolved. As I was writing the second book,
Speaker 1: I started working with organizations that that helps support combat veterans.
Speaker 1: So I started co leading retreats where I would teach.
Speaker 1: I'm a yoga teacher as well, so I would teach
Speaker 1: yoga and meditation, therapeutic writing. And then I started working
Speaker 1: one on one with people and then teaching mindfulness classes,
Speaker 1: and it all just kind of evolved, and in a
Speaker 1: way that I think it's a total shock to me
Speaker 1: because thinking of me as a teacher, like I don't
Speaker 1: like it when people look at me, like I don't
Speaker 1: want to be a person getting attention. There's a reason
Speaker 1: I left acting, but I'm so And also, you know,
Speaker 1: with acting, you're in characters. I mean, people are looking
Speaker 1: at you, but you don't see them looking at you
Speaker 1: because you're you're at home and they're at the movies.
Speaker 1: You know, it's like, yeah, and having to act like yourself, yeah,
Speaker 1: so much scarier, totally having to act like somebody else
Speaker 1: and say the words that somebody else wrote and where
Speaker 1: the shirt that somebody else picked out. Um. But but
Speaker 1: for me, the tools that I've found to help me
Speaker 1: with anxiety and depression were so life changing that I
Speaker 1: really felt like, oh my god, I have to tell
Speaker 1: other people about this. So like, Not Just Me is
Speaker 1: the book that I wish I had had when I
Speaker 1: was in my darkest moments. The podcast is talking about
Speaker 1: the topics I wish people had been talking about. I
Speaker 1: sing no, but I could feel that in this beautiful
Speaker 1: way reading your book, I knew it. I knew it
Speaker 1: in my heart, and I feel that way about myself.
Speaker 1: Everything I do is to reach out to the young
Speaker 1: version of me and and other people like her, you know,
Speaker 1: and and to just say I'm doing this because I
Speaker 1: wish I had this, and so where did you get
Speaker 1: your tools? Like did you go to therapy for the
Speaker 1: first time? Um, you know when how did that all
Speaker 1: come about? Like how did you know Okay, I need
Speaker 1: to talk to someone? And where did you find them?
Speaker 1: So I did CBT Cognitive behavioral therapy, and so I
Speaker 1: started doing that when I was in college. And so
Speaker 1: that was incredibly helpful because I'm a nerd. I like homework,
Speaker 1: like give me tasks, give me a checklist, and I
Speaker 1: will get it done. And so CEMT is very much
Speaker 1: um kind of you go through this process and you
Speaker 1: do this step, and then you do this step, and
Speaker 1: then you do this step. So for me, I had
Speaker 1: tried kind of talk therapy where I would just go
Speaker 1: in and just kind of like here's everything that's in
Speaker 1: my head. That didn't work so well for me because
Speaker 1: I was just kind of ruminating and going over and
Speaker 1: over and over it. But when I had really specific
Speaker 1: tools and steps, I found that to be incredibly helpful.
Speaker 1: So also my therapist started talking to me about meditation
Speaker 1: and started giving me books by John cabot Zinn, and
Speaker 1: then that just sort of sent me down this rabbit
Speaker 1: hole of mindfulness. I started practicing yoga, which is really
Speaker 1: just sort of a form of moving meditation, and so
Speaker 1: that changed everything for me. And then I started reading
Speaker 1: everything I possibly could about yoga, meditation, mindfulness, and then
Speaker 1: did like eight hours of training on those things and
Speaker 1: it all kind of just snowballed from there. I feel
Speaker 1: like CBT is like we're putting a fire out. Here's
Speaker 1: the tools you can learn when you're panicking, and then
Speaker 1: when you have time, go to see what happened in
Speaker 1: your child, did if anything, or you know whatever, because
Speaker 1: that is part of it. Like we learned unconscious ways
Speaker 1: to cope from our parents, even if our parents were lovely,
Speaker 1: you know, we pick up their bad habits that they
Speaker 1: learned or whatever. Um. But it's interesting too because you
Speaker 1: say yoga meditation, and I know people are like, I
Speaker 1: don't want to do that. But your book is so
Speaker 1: funny because you talk about how much you hated yoga.
Speaker 1: I mean you were just like I don't want to
Speaker 1: do this, and you took a class. You're like no,
Speaker 1: So to everyone listening, like, yeah, that's how it starts,
Speaker 1: you know, it really is. And I think it's so
Speaker 1: interesting too. Uh And this is gonna sound so therapy ish,
Speaker 1: but like, look at your resistance. Just look at it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: take a moment and go, wow, you know something is
Speaker 1: being suggested here and I have just decided like fuck,
Speaker 1: you know, I'm shutting this down. Oh okay, well, like
Speaker 1: maybe investigate that a little bit. Why do you have
Speaker 1: such strong opinions on that? What? What is it that
Speaker 1: like is kind of triggering you and making you roll
Speaker 1: your eyes? And it could be any number of things, right.
Speaker 1: It could be like, oh, it seems like hippie stuff,
Speaker 1: or oh that couldn't possibly help me because my issues
Speaker 1: are so intense, or I tried that once and I
Speaker 1: thought it was terrible, or it's so trendy that it
Speaker 1: can't possibly be any good. Right, So that's fine. And
Speaker 1: if so many people are talking about it, and if
Speaker 1: you are having people who are you know, very publicly
Speaker 1: saying I get it. I was not into this either.
Speaker 1: But this is something that does not cost you anything. Literally,
Speaker 1: I have free beginner videos on YouTube. You don't have
Speaker 1: to leave your house, you don't have to change out
Speaker 1: of your pjs. Like what would happen if you just
Speaker 1: came to it with a little bit more open mindedness
Speaker 1: and came to it with this sense of like, I
Speaker 1: really am having a hard time, so I'll try anything. Well,
Speaker 1: I think it has to get to that point. And
Speaker 1: I think too, It's like you're naming ten million things
Speaker 1: cognitive behavior, yoga, meditation, mindfulness, and the list goes on.
Speaker 1: We're saying all these things are part of the tool kit.
Speaker 1: You may not do all of them all day, every day,
Speaker 1: but they're there. And it's like no one is saying
Speaker 1: yoga is going to care everything. That would be ridiculous.
Speaker 1: You know. Um, you know, I went to therapy probably
Speaker 1: like exactly the same time you did, and it was
Speaker 1: the late nineties, and I've never heard the word mindful.
Speaker 1: So when I went to this therapist, she was not
Speaker 1: hippie dippy at all. She was just like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: so your panic attacks are blah blah blah, and explain
Speaker 1: the whole you know, response to something that's not there
Speaker 1: and adrenaline and the whole thing, the whole caveman story
Speaker 1: that people do. And she said, uh, well, I want
Speaker 1: you to do. This is going to seem unrelated to everything,
Speaker 1: but I want to go home tonight, take a shower,
Speaker 1: and I want you to think about nothing else but
Speaker 1: what you're doing. Pick up the soap, feel how the
Speaker 1: soap feels. Narrate to yourself, the bubbles everything. Now, anytime
Speaker 1: any other thought comes in your head, just go right
Speaker 1: back to narrating the shower. Now, I'm rubbing my knee
Speaker 1: with alofa you know, just do that and see how
Speaker 1: you feel when you get out of the shower. And
Speaker 1: I did, and I remember noticing how many times other
Speaker 1: thoughts were trying to come in. I mean, I was shocked.
Speaker 1: And I went back and told her, and then she
Speaker 1: dropped it on me, Well that's what you did, was mindfulness,
Speaker 1: And I went, oh cool. Now we are lucky because
Speaker 1: we didn't have ven thousand Instagram influencers and people, you know,
Speaker 1: trying to make a buck off it or saying words
Speaker 1: that just they've made it meaningless. Now, so now I
Speaker 1: can see where people are like, oh this again. But
Speaker 1: it's like, well it keeps coming up for a reason,
Speaker 1: like you you know. And also I think to like
Speaker 1: I'm learning with my anxiety. My reactions were a big problem,
Speaker 1: just so reactive. And like you said, when we're when
Speaker 1: we're like now and having that like defiance, it's like
Speaker 1: when you really turn into something it's so much quieter.
Speaker 1: It's just like I don't think, I don't know. So
Speaker 1: it's like, you know, it's like a therapist dream when
Speaker 1: someone freaks out at a suggestion. They're like, oh, here's
Speaker 1: the gold mine, you know, but it's true. It's it's
Speaker 1: like anyone listening. Just all you have to do today
Speaker 1: is notice your reaction as we talk about min absolutely,
Speaker 1: just like what what is true for today? I'm in
Speaker 1: acceptance that whatever of whatever, just acceptance too well, the
Speaker 1: car blew up. I've got to accept that happened. You know. Um.
Speaker 1: I love to in your book, and I think this
Speaker 1: is what I like about. It's got that like big
Speaker 1: Sister gen X vibe of we do at a certain
Speaker 1: point in our anxiety journey, like maybe be delicate at first,
Speaker 1: but at a certain point it's very impactful to have
Speaker 1: a little tough love. Yeah, because there is a narcissism
Speaker 1: to anxiety. And so what you say about people who
Speaker 1: say I can't meditate have to, I have too many thoughts,
Speaker 1: I can't sit still, And you say in your book like, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's not at all unique at all, that's not You're
Speaker 1: not that special and her brain is not special. I
Speaker 1: think you're I think that little sounds a tough love
Speaker 1: like you're not special works for me. Like if anyone
Speaker 1: needs to like kind of slap me out of an
Speaker 1: anxious moment, that's that works for me. Some people, um
Speaker 1: need a little more gentleness. But if there's anyone out
Speaker 1: there that needs that kind of slap like you're not
Speaker 1: that special, isn't that a relief? Right? Yes? Yeah, I
Speaker 1: absolutely needed that because I just I needed I needed
Speaker 1: to hear that. Again, it gets back to like I
Speaker 1: am not the only one, and I can get so
Speaker 1: caught up in my life and my drama and my
Speaker 1: anxiety and oh my god, isn't this just the worst
Speaker 1: thing ever? You know what, maybe if I just took
Speaker 1: a breath, maybe if I stepped out of my own
Speaker 1: head for a moment, and maybe if I went and
Speaker 1: like tried to help somebody else for like fifteen minutes,
Speaker 1: what would happen? Then? You know? And there are times
Speaker 1: that I feel like, um, I was in this place
Speaker 1: where I was being too coddled, where I just needed
Speaker 1: to be like, Okay, come on, you can do this.
Speaker 1: And I think it comes from this place of like
Speaker 1: we're stronger than we think we are. And that's what
Speaker 1: I love to tell people, like, you can handle so
Speaker 1: much more than you think you can handle, and you
Speaker 1: can handle being uncomfortable. You know, I am not saying
Speaker 1: choose pain, but what I'm saying is you don't have
Speaker 1: to run away because things get uncomfortable, Like you can
Speaker 1: breathe through that. You can handle that, and you can
Speaker 1: come out the other end not being so scared to
Speaker 1: be uncomfortable, and that's when things get really interesting. But
Speaker 1: once you when you do one thing that makes you
Speaker 1: uncomfortable and you get through it, oh my god, then
Speaker 1: you have your own self to keep learning from, so
Speaker 1: you have proof, oh my god, I can do it.
Speaker 1: And then you're your mind changes about what you want.
Speaker 1: Instead of wanting to get rid of this thing, you realize, oh,
Speaker 1: I can live with this. It actually feels, you know.
Speaker 1: I used to have it. I mean the fear flying
Speaker 1: I had was so ridiculous. It was over the top.
Speaker 1: And I have flown to Australia by myself three times
Speaker 1: since then with no panic attack. Now I do have
Speaker 1: dissolvable clonopin that I do take like, but I'm talking
Speaker 1: the tiniest amount and it's part of like, you know,
Speaker 1: keeping my nervous system down. But I'm telling you the
Speaker 1: panic I used to have before you could have put
Speaker 1: me under anesthesia and be panicking like it was, and
Speaker 1: I mean it was just my life was so small
Speaker 1: because of it, you know, and it opened up my
Speaker 1: life to where I felt like such a badass. I
Speaker 1: felt also like, of course we judge ourselves, so I
Speaker 1: felt like an do it Like you are in your thirties,
Speaker 1: you feel like a badass because you got off a plane.
Speaker 1: I'm like, I do kind of, you know, because greater. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that is a massive thing to overcome, and it's such
Speaker 1: I mean, that is such a big deal. And I
Speaker 1: I think it's so important to celebrate those things because
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter if on the other side of it
Speaker 1: you're like that seems silly. It doesn't matter. In the
Speaker 1: moment that was very real to you and very painful
Speaker 1: for you. And so being able to celebrate when we
Speaker 1: make those steps forward, that that's what it's all about.
Speaker 1: Tell me about your panic attacks. So I know you
Speaker 1: had your first panic attack, and I'm so jealous. I
Speaker 1: could die on the set of night Core, which was
Speaker 1: my favorite show growing up, and I was probably watching
Speaker 1: it having panic attacks myself. So, um, so you're so,
Speaker 1: I know that it was like the first time you
Speaker 1: kind of did something in front of a live studio audience. Now,
Speaker 1: was that what gave you a panic attack? Or do
Speaker 1: you think you just had a panic attack for the
Speaker 1: first time and it seemed to all come to a
Speaker 1: really good question. It's funny because I started working as
Speaker 1: an actor so young. There's kind of this chicken and
Speaker 1: egg situation where it's like, I don't know. I think
Speaker 1: I was probably just sort of an anxious human and
Speaker 1: anxious kid. You know now that some of anxiety is
Speaker 1: just kind of hardwired into your d n A. So
Speaker 1: I think I was anxious anyway. And then I think
Speaker 1: some of the stress of you know, having a film
Speaker 1: career before I hit double digits, you know, that's that's
Speaker 1: kind of a thing too. But um yeah, I think,
Speaker 1: you know, being in front of a live studio audience
Speaker 1: when all I had done before was you know, commercials
Speaker 1: and TV shows with single camera, that was nerve wracking.
Speaker 1: There were a lot of people there, and I hadn't
Speaker 1: totally known what I was in for with that. So yeah,
Speaker 1: panic attack on the on the set a nite cord
Speaker 1: and then you you felt like you were dying, And
Speaker 1: did you tell anyone or did that did did your
Speaker 1: mind just kind of tweaked that day where you just
Speaker 1: like different forever, if that makes sense, Like now I
Speaker 1: have a secret. I think I sort of felt like
Speaker 1: I had a secret, like this was something shaneful that
Speaker 1: I was looking around and no one else was having
Speaker 1: a panic attack, and so I just thought, Okay, well,
Speaker 1: this is clearly not how we operate around here. Let
Speaker 1: me just shove this down as as far as it
Speaker 1: can go and and pretend that it's it's not happening.
Speaker 1: And it's funny you say, no one else is having
Speaker 1: a panic attack. Well, you know, I know sometimes they
Speaker 1: can be pretty intense, but at the end of the day,
Speaker 1: when you're having one, sometimes no one knows either. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So then did they start Because something in your book
Speaker 1: that was interesting was you talked about a gor phobia
Speaker 1: and social anxiety, which I want to ask you about, like,
Speaker 1: did did things start kind of um ramping up after
Speaker 1: that where the panic attacks becoming more frequent? Yeah, So
Speaker 1: you know, it would kind of ebb and flow, and
Speaker 1: so sometimes it would be sometimes it would be a
Speaker 1: little bit easier, but definitely you know, by the time
Speaker 1: I got into my late teens, it was really intense.
Speaker 1: And also I think that kind of coincided. I did
Speaker 1: doubtfire when I was fourteen, and so you know, from
Speaker 1: that point on, I was much more recognizable. So you know,
Speaker 1: going out in public got much more challenging. I would
Speaker 1: get mobbed, I would get grabbed, um, I would you know,
Speaker 1: not be able to get through a meal without people
Speaker 1: coming up. So you know, being in public changed a
Speaker 1: lot when I was about fifteen, and so that I
Speaker 1: think was it was another thing that kind of helped
Speaker 1: to um move along some of my my social anxiety
Speaker 1: and my desires to not leave the house. We'll be
Speaker 1: right back. Can you take us through a panic attack
Speaker 1: just for someone listening through, Like, oh, I think I
Speaker 1: have that, but I don't know. I mean everyone's symptoms
Speaker 1: very here and there, But what what is the panic attack? Like?
Speaker 1: What happens when it starts to come on? And then
Speaker 1: what is it like at its worst? So for me,
Speaker 1: I can always tell when panic is coming on because
Speaker 1: my hands get really tingly and numb. So one thing
Speaker 1: that you learn when you're learning how to manage panic
Speaker 1: attacks is looking for the really early physical signs because
Speaker 1: when you can find those early physical signs, you can
Speaker 1: kind of catch the panic attack when it's at like
Speaker 1: a two or three, because when it gets to a nine,
Speaker 1: it's really hard to come down from. So for me,
Speaker 1: I always look for that that tingling in my hands
Speaker 1: where they start to go a little bit numb, and like,
Speaker 1: there's all kinds of biological reasons for that. It's about
Speaker 1: changes in the blood flow. You're kind of going into
Speaker 1: fight or flight, so the blood is all going to
Speaker 1: the muscles that are needed to run away from a
Speaker 1: saber suit tiger, right, So you don't really need to
Speaker 1: have a lot of blood in your hands for that.
Speaker 1: So for me, it tends to start that way. I
Speaker 1: will get the heart palpitations, my mouth gets really dry.
Speaker 1: I get tunnel vision, so it's really hard for me
Speaker 1: to see. It's like I can just see these little
Speaker 1: tiny pinpoints. Um. I get kind of a ringing, a
Speaker 1: buzzing in my ears, so I can't hear very well.
Speaker 1: If someone's talking to me. It's they kind of turn
Speaker 1: into like the Peanuts cartoon where I can't really make
Speaker 1: out what they're saying. Um. And then I start sweating
Speaker 1: and then I get really dizzy. Um, So at that
Speaker 1: point I normally tend to sit on the floor because
Speaker 1: I'm worried going to pass out, so I get as
Speaker 1: low as I can, and then, you know, mentally at
Speaker 1: that point, because then it's at like a nine or
Speaker 1: a ten, right, So I'm like, well, I just have
Speaker 1: to ride this through. At this point, I know that
Speaker 1: I'm sort of in it for the panic attack, and
Speaker 1: then I run through all the facts in my head,
Speaker 1: which is, this is a panic attack. I have been
Speaker 1: through this before. This is not a heart attack and
Speaker 1: not actually going to die, and at max this is
Speaker 1: going to be ten minutes. Yeah, but what a long time.
Speaker 1: And it's right, absolutely, but yeah, you're right somewhere in
Speaker 1: your brain, your brain is hearing you say that to yourself.
Speaker 1: And it does work. Just doesn't feel like it's working,
Speaker 1: but it works. Yeah. But it's I mean, it took
Speaker 1: me years in order to get to that point where
Speaker 1: I could at least say those facts to my head, right,
Speaker 1: which is like, Okay, we have done this. We used
Speaker 1: to do this four times a day. Remember, Now we're
Speaker 1: just it's gonna be a few minutes. We're gonna sit
Speaker 1: on the floor, lie on the floor, We're gonna try
Speaker 1: to breathe, and then in a little while we'll get up. Um.
Speaker 1: But I think, you know, the number of people who
Speaker 1: end up in the emergency room for their first panic
Speaker 1: attack is like astronomical because it feels very much like
Speaker 1: a heart attack. So I think, um, you know, being
Speaker 1: able to look out most of the time. Now, when
Speaker 1: I feel my hands go, I'm like, okay, panic is starting.
Speaker 1: Let me start my breathing exercises, let me start my
Speaker 1: mindfulness exercises. Let me try to get something cold. I
Speaker 1: will grab an ice cube that helps me a lot,
Speaker 1: or run my risks under cold water. If I'm with
Speaker 1: someone that I'm comfortable telling, I will say, hey, I'm
Speaker 1: having a panic attack. Um. If that person is my husband,
Speaker 1: he knows exactly what I need him to do in
Speaker 1: those moments because he has been to me through seventy
Speaker 1: billion of these UM. So you you know, you learn
Speaker 1: these tools so that you can you know, you can
Speaker 1: bring it down if you can catch it in time.
Speaker 1: And to just say it out loud, I mean it
Speaker 1: takes a lot of courage. That was my first assignment
Speaker 1: with flying go up to the flight attendant before the
Speaker 1: panic attacks starts and say, I don't need you to
Speaker 1: do anything now, but I have panic disorder and I
Speaker 1: might have a panic attack on the flight. Just just
Speaker 1: saying that out loud because it helps me, and they'll
Speaker 1: go okay. And it's honestly, like, sometimes it's just better
Speaker 1: to be humiliated because if the panic like it's like
Speaker 1: more overwhelming than the panic, You're like, Okay, at least
Speaker 1: I'm humiliated, but not panicking, you know, Like anything to
Speaker 1: just ground yourself, because you're right, that tunnel vision is
Speaker 1: so evolutionary, and it feels like you're not on the earth.
Speaker 1: It feels like you're starting to float away, you know,
Speaker 1: So anything to ground and and thank god you have
Speaker 1: such a supportive husband who can say the right that
Speaker 1: what's the wrong thing that he could say in a
Speaker 1: panic attack? Calm down, right? People do not say calm
Speaker 1: down to anybody ever. Really, And this is actually an
Speaker 1: interesting thing that that, you know, he and I had
Speaker 1: to work through because what I realized, uh news to me.
Speaker 1: He's not a mind reader. He doesn't automatically know the
Speaker 1: right things to do and the right things to say.
Speaker 1: So I have a lot of people ask me like, oh,
Speaker 1: I don't have anxiety, but my spouse does, or my
Speaker 1: child does, or my friend does. What can I do
Speaker 1: for them? And what I always say is like you
Speaker 1: need to have a conversation and the anxious person like
Speaker 1: it is on us to say, hey, when this happens,
Speaker 1: this is what I need you to do. This is
Speaker 1: what I need you to say. And it feels really
Speaker 1: like you know dictorial in the moment, but it empowers
Speaker 1: him to know exactly what I need in those moments
Speaker 1: when I'm struggling. Because he used to try to hug
Speaker 1: me when I was having a panic attack, which is
Speaker 1: incredibly sweet, and it made me want to punch him
Speaker 1: in the face because I felt like I was being smothered.
Speaker 1: I couldn't handle the touch, like it was just awful.
Speaker 1: And what I was able to tell him is I
Speaker 1: was like, you know, if you can just take one
Speaker 1: hand and put it on my back, like near my
Speaker 1: shoulder blade and just stay right there with me, and
Speaker 1: and that was what I needed, like I needed to
Speaker 1: know he was close, but I didn't want to feel
Speaker 1: like I was being smothered. I wanted to feel that
Speaker 1: support of the hand on my back and he how
Speaker 1: was he going to know that? Right? And everyone's different. Yeah,
Speaker 1: because I actually want to be put in a lock
Speaker 1: when I'm panicking. I want the hug. I want to
Speaker 1: feel like I can't go anywhere, So that would be
Speaker 1: great for me, but not for you. And so everyone's different,
Speaker 1: so you have to have the conversation. You know, I'll
Speaker 1: send him over to your house next time, because he's
Speaker 1: a really good hugger. Well this, and I know we're
Speaker 1: out of time, but if I can just pick your
Speaker 1: brain for a couple more minutes about because you know,
Speaker 1: I actually don't know much about social anxiety. Um, I
Speaker 1: have the thought that everyone does that, like you know, Oh,
Speaker 1: I just don't like being around people, are going to
Speaker 1: parties or I don't know what I'll say to someone.
Speaker 1: And it's like the way you put it in the book,
Speaker 1: UM is so like it really. I was like, Oh,
Speaker 1: that's what it is. You said, social anxiety is the
Speaker 1: intense and persistent fear of being watched and scrutinized by others,
Speaker 1: causing extreme self consciousness. It's essentially pathological shyness. And you
Speaker 1: said it's it's Um, it's a feeling of being constantly
Speaker 1: embarrassed or humiliated by one's actions, can you know, be
Speaker 1: paralyzing and and then that can mix with with your
Speaker 1: go or phobias. So what Yeah, I don't have a
Speaker 1: lot of experience with that. What what is that like?
Speaker 1: And how do you cope? It can be incredibly challenging.
Speaker 1: But I think, like any of these mental wellness issues,
Speaker 1: it's something that you can work with. It is something
Speaker 1: that you can manage. It's something that can get easier
Speaker 1: if you know what you're dealing with. So I think
Speaker 1: for me, you know, doing a lot of the cognitive
Speaker 1: behavioral therapy helped. I think for me, working on my
Speaker 1: own self confidence helped a lot. And just being able
Speaker 1: to name it and and really understand what it was
Speaker 1: helped me to get more more comfortable being in social environments. Also,
Speaker 1: I think another thing that's really important is learning how
Speaker 1: to say no, Learning how to say no to social
Speaker 1: interactions that make you really uncomfortable, like not feeling obligated
Speaker 1: to do every single social thing. And I know that's
Speaker 1: a big thing for people right now. Ye know now
Speaker 1: that like we've spent such a long time not socializing
Speaker 1: and now we're starting to a little bit more and
Speaker 1: people feel like, well, I you know, I haven't done
Speaker 1: anything for a long time, so I should say yes
Speaker 1: to every invitation. No, like no is a complete sentence,
Speaker 1: just no. You don't have to explain, you don't have
Speaker 1: to make excuses for yourself. You are allowed to have
Speaker 1: boundaries around what social interactions you have, and so that
Speaker 1: I think can be uh that alone. I think it's
Speaker 1: really empowering, so that you're really only doing the things
Speaker 1: that that socially you feel okay about. And I think
Speaker 1: it's cool, Like, you know what, the pandemic helped me
Speaker 1: open up conversations with friends of mine that I didn't
Speaker 1: realize were socially anxious. And you know, we don't lie
Speaker 1: to each other. You know, it's not um, oh I
Speaker 1: have a thing that day. You know. It's like I
Speaker 1: have friends who are like, I'm comfortable doing this, this
Speaker 1: and this, don't invite me to that, that and that.
Speaker 1: And in the same way of like telling your husband
Speaker 1: what kind of touch you need during a panic attack,
Speaker 1: I think we can have conversations with our friends because
Speaker 1: again they're not mine readers. So someone invites you to
Speaker 1: your third barbecue, you say no. Now they're going to
Speaker 1: stop inviting you to everything, and you're like, no, I'll
Speaker 1: go to your book club. I don't want to the
Speaker 1: barbecue exactly. I think people are so much more understanding
Speaker 1: and compassionate than we give them credit for. And hey,
Speaker 1: if they're not, then there's a friend you know is
Speaker 1: not really a friend. There's a great weed or outer.
Speaker 1: So lastly, I just want to know, well, first of all,
Speaker 1: I love that you going back to your work with
Speaker 1: with Veterans. I mean, I've listened to the podcast episode
Speaker 1: where you were talking, um was it Buzzy is his
Speaker 1: name to be an un vet? And man, you know
Speaker 1: that kind of trauma that he's seen and that kind
Speaker 1: of PTSD that he still has and anxiety. And I
Speaker 1: think it's important for people with anxiety if people relate
Speaker 1: to us, oh I'm a writer, to go listen to
Speaker 1: anything that has nothing to do with what you relate
Speaker 1: to and hear other people's stories, because again, you know
Speaker 1: how people will always say, oh, well, how I shouldn't
Speaker 1: feel bad because other people have it worse. That's not helpful.
Speaker 1: Other people don't want you to have it as bad
Speaker 1: as them. It just that's your moment to get into
Speaker 1: gratitude for what you do have or you do have
Speaker 1: control of our just just to know that there's a
Speaker 1: lot of stories out there, not just ones that are
Speaker 1: exactly like ours. And I bet it was so scary
Speaker 1: too to go work with vets and like, I'm not
Speaker 1: a vet, Why am I going to tell them to
Speaker 1: draw to? You know, like that must have been so intimidating.
Speaker 1: It absolutely was. I had not intended on working with
Speaker 1: combat vets. That I was doing a lot of writing
Speaker 1: around anxiety and mindfulness online and car Earl Salazar, who
Speaker 1: runs Expedition Balanced down in Texas, said, you know, I
Speaker 1: read your work. Do you want to come down to
Speaker 1: Texas and and see what we're doing down here with vets?
Speaker 1: And you know it, it kind of turned into a
Speaker 1: real passion for me. And I absolutely love working with
Speaker 1: that community. But I was so insecure about it, like
Speaker 1: I am a pacifist Canadian vegetarian. What the hell am
Speaker 1: I doing hanging out with vets? Right? And so what
Speaker 1: I think is so beautiful is exactly what you just
Speaker 1: pointed out. That we can come from such dramatically different backgrounds,
Speaker 1: we can have hugely different experiences, but we can connect
Speaker 1: on this deeply human level. Of pain and suffering and
Speaker 1: joy and gratitude, and how do we get over our
Speaker 1: past and how do we move forward in an uncertain future?
Speaker 1: And everybody goes through that. So what are the ways
Speaker 1: that we can connect even if our stories seem very
Speaker 1: very different. I often find people whose stories are nothing
Speaker 1: like mine the most inspiring because the examples are so stark,
Speaker 1: you know that, it's like, oh, I get it, okay,
Speaker 1: I see you know? Um? And then what's so, what's
Speaker 1: going on right now for you? Are you not doing
Speaker 1: live things due to COVID It's I've noticed on your
Speaker 1: website you're doing online anxiety courses. Yeah. So I'm doing
Speaker 1: a lot online. I have a Yoga for anxiety class
Speaker 1: that I teach every week. I have a Yoga for
Speaker 1: Veterans class that I teach. I am doing mindfulness workshops um.
Speaker 1: And I am just now starting to do more in
Speaker 1: person stuff. So I'm going down to a college in
Speaker 1: Georgia and a couple of weeks to do a talk
Speaker 1: for them. I'm doing corporate events um. And so you know,
Speaker 1: it's now kind of this mixture of in person and online,
Speaker 1: which I think is probably going to stay that way
Speaker 1: for for a while I miss the in person stuff.
Speaker 1: And so when you do a talk after, do you
Speaker 1: lead them through any exercises or is there a Q
Speaker 1: and a? Um, there's more work than the talk. I
Speaker 1: assume it's. Yeah, nobody likes to just sit there and
Speaker 1: watch somebody talk for an hour. So I really try
Speaker 1: to do a lot of interactive stuff. We will go
Speaker 1: through breathing exercises, well, maybe do a little chair yoga.
Speaker 1: I have all kinds of kind of mindfulness activities that
Speaker 1: that you can do things like I'm about to have
Speaker 1: a panic attack, what do I literally do in this moment?
Speaker 1: And then we always do a Q and A because, um,
Speaker 1: I get sick of hearing myself, so I love to
Speaker 1: hear other people. I love it. I mean there needs
Speaker 1: to be you need to clone yourself. We need you
Speaker 1: in every school, every corporation, every everything. It's and you
Speaker 1: have so much training. I mean those what did you
Speaker 1: say was like eight hundred hours. Yeah it's been. It's
Speaker 1: been a ridiculous amount. Yeah. Yeah, it's like I've I've
Speaker 1: done my five training of training with with yoga specifically,
Speaker 1: and then I've done meditation trainings and veteran trainings and yeah,
Speaker 1: it's amazing. I'm so inspired by your story because I
Speaker 1: just love the idea of a second act in life.
Speaker 1: But Lisa, I am just so inspired by you. You're
Speaker 1: so I just you're so um earnest and just fun
Speaker 1: that it's really great, like and in the sea of
Speaker 1: people that are just kind of selling snake oil at
Speaker 1: this point, like trying to um monetize the anxiety epidemic. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I just it's so nice to see such an organic
Speaker 1: person like yourself who's doing the work. And I'm so
Speaker 1: grateful you came on the show. Thank you, Thank you.
Speaker 1: It was this was such a delightful conversation. You're amazing.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much. I hope you enjoyed my chat
Speaker 1: with Lisa Jacob. So let's talk about some of the
Speaker 1: takeaways from my interview with Lisa, some of the gems
Speaker 1: that she gave us. If you deal with your anxiety
Speaker 1: and depression, it will not make you less of an artist.
Speaker 1: In fact, it could lead to opening up your creativity
Speaker 1: even more. If you have anxiety, if you think you
Speaker 1: suck at meditating with peace and love is Lisa says,
Speaker 1: you are not special, and that's a good thing because
Speaker 1: it means you are not alone. You are normal. There
Speaker 1: is a solution for what you're dealing with. CBT is
Speaker 1: cognitive behavioral therapy, and it's a specific form of therapy
Speaker 1: that almost immediately gives you tools to cope with your
Speaker 1: anxious thoughts and behaviors. If you can't afford a therapist,
Speaker 1: you can at least google cognitive behavioral therapy and read
Speaker 1: for yourself some of the tools that are freely listed online.
Speaker 1: Lisa mentions that John cabot Zin was who opened her
Speaker 1: up to being aware of mindfulness and reading his work
Speaker 1: started her on her journey. I just wanted to about
Speaker 1: that for you in case you weren't familiar and you
Speaker 1: wanted to read his work as well. It's John J. O. N.
Speaker 1: Cabot k A b A t Zin z I n N.
Speaker 1: Lisa says, when you're feeling resistant to something something new,
Speaker 1: or getting help with your anxiety, ask yourself, what would
Speaker 1: happen if I approached this with a bit more open
Speaker 1: mindedness and a sense of you know, I'm having a
Speaker 1: really hard time, so I'll try anything. If you're caught
Speaker 1: in your head and caught in your own drama, can
Speaker 1: you take just one breath? What would happen if you
Speaker 1: did that? Could you maybe go help someone else for
Speaker 1: a few minutes to get yourself out of yourself? What
Speaker 1: would that look like? People with anxiety are stronger than
Speaker 1: they think they are. You don't have to run away
Speaker 1: when things get uncomfortable. You are strong enough to be uncomfortable.
Speaker 1: Celebrate every single thing that you conquer as an anxious person.
Speaker 1: Don't belittle your accomplishments. Did you get out of your
Speaker 1: pajamas one hour earlier than normal? Celebrate it? Did you
Speaker 1: drive one mile on the freeway when you used to
Speaker 1: never even be able to get on the on rep
Speaker 1: Celebrate that? Did you have to panic attacks today instead
Speaker 1: of five? Celebrate that you're a badass. And lastly, your
Speaker 1: loved ones are not mind readers, and they may not
Speaker 1: know how to correctly soothe you during a panic attack
Speaker 1: or when you're having anxiety. So talk to them about it.
Speaker 1: Tell them what you need. Do this when you're not
Speaker 1: in the middle of a panic attack or a moment
Speaker 1: of anxiety. Come up with a plan of action so
Speaker 1: that they know exactly how to show up for you
Speaker 1: when you're anxious. And that is a form of showing
Speaker 1: up for yourself. Again, thanks for listening. Everything you need
Speaker 1: to know about Lisa is in the show Notes anxiety bites,
Speaker 1: but You're in control. For more podcasts from my heart Radio,
Speaker 1: visit the I heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever
Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows,