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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Emily and this is Bridget and you're

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Speaker 1: listening to stuff mom never told you. And we're talking

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Speaker 1: today about a subject that I have unfortunately a lot

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Speaker 1: of experience with, and that is messing up at work. Um.

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Speaker 1: I bet a lot of y'all can probably identify with that.

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Speaker 1: It's a it's something that happens, but it's not something

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Speaker 1: that has talked about very publicly. No one wants to

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Speaker 1: be very open about the times where they, you know,

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Speaker 1: did the wrong thing or should have done this and

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Speaker 1: they did that, or you know, completely miss something or

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Speaker 1: completely mess something up and you know, made everything bad.

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Speaker 1: And we should we should talk about our failures. Failure

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Speaker 1: is a really important part of success. It's a really

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Speaker 1: important part of any process. And we should be in

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Speaker 1: racing failure. Um. And I definitely have had my fair

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Speaker 1: share work problems. I'm making myself sound like a really

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Speaker 1: like great desirable person to join your team. I feel

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Speaker 1: like we've just been sharing more stories in preparation and

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Speaker 1: if you it's like we're we've been one upping each other,

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Speaker 1: like you want to hear about how bad this one

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Speaker 1: time it's been great? Yeah, it is cathartic. I mean people. Really,

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Speaker 1: it resonates with people when you talk about your your

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Speaker 1: failures in a concrete way, and so in a former life,

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Speaker 1: I think I've mentioned this before. My job involved putting

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Speaker 1: together trainings for activists and organizers and campaigners to figure

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Speaker 1: out how they could use technology to be these badass

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Speaker 1: you know, political strategists and operatives. And one of the

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Speaker 1: things I found is that when trainers and mentors shared

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Speaker 1: their stories of times, concrete times where they mess something

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Speaker 1: up or they missed the mark, those are the stories

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Speaker 1: that stuck with um, the participants, And like, you know,

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Speaker 1: I think I think about those stories anytime I hit

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Speaker 1: send on a big email. I think about, you know,

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Speaker 1: stories when people have told me like, well, this was

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Speaker 1: a horror story. My heart is like starting to be

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Speaker 1: a little faster, just just thinking about the pressure of

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Speaker 1: being a professional strategist and hitting send on emails to

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Speaker 1: have about people so much pressure have you had tell

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Speaker 1: me about? Well, before I tell you about my big

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Speaker 1: screw up, I also want to underline what you were

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Speaker 1: just saying about the importance of specificity. There's a big

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Speaker 1: difference between when we talk in cliche about you know,

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Speaker 1: lean into the discomfort of failure, mistake, Yeah, it's okay,

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Speaker 1: you know that, those sort of like as someone in

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Speaker 1: the professional development space, those cliches are easy to fall

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Speaker 1: back on because we don't always have time to get

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Speaker 1: specific about the many ways in which we've all learned

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Speaker 1: from messing up. But it's important to remember, even though

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Speaker 1: it is in the past, the more specific you can

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Speaker 1: be in sharing how you overcame that challenge, the more

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Speaker 1: relatable and inspiring. It becomes not just these like blase

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Speaker 1: a cliche statements that are not very empowering. In fact,

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Speaker 1: if you look at the narrative arc in storytelling that

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Speaker 1: we see throughout history, from Shakespeare and Aristotle, you know,

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Speaker 1: all the way through to how we talk about you know,

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Speaker 1: politicians in the public eye sharing their come up story

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Speaker 1: or hip hop, and the whole idea of getting bossed up.

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Speaker 1: That whole idea what underscores the phrase bossed up is

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Speaker 1: you overcame something, and so in many ways, we as

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Speaker 1: human beings are innately inspired by someone else's failure stories.

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Speaker 1: When you get specific about how you overcame and dealt

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Speaker 1: with obstacles and challenges. In some ways, everybody actually loves

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Speaker 1: an underdog story, but it depends on how you tell it,

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Speaker 1: doesn't it totally? I mean, I couldn't agree more. I

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Speaker 1: think that the times in my life where I've heard

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Speaker 1: people that I think of as very successful or you know,

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Speaker 1: badasses in my field, when those women, especially are vulnerable

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Speaker 1: enough to tell about a time where they missed the mark,

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Speaker 1: it just normalizes the whole thing. And you think, you know,

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Speaker 1: even the person that you think of as you know,

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Speaker 1: your um, career, idol or whatever, like, even they have

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Speaker 1: dealt with this. And I'm reminded of Jess Morales. Shout

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Speaker 1: out to Jess Morales, friend of the show. UM, you

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Speaker 1: may know her as if you if you were paying

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Speaker 1: attention to your phone during the election and you were

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Speaker 1: pro Hillary, you might know her as Jess from h

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Speaker 1: F A. UM. Jess as a real person who I

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Speaker 1: know in real life and I met also through n

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Speaker 1: I y UM. And so Jess is someone who I

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Speaker 1: think of as like being at the top of her

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Speaker 1: game professionally in our field. She has has led really

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Speaker 1: important campaign She's been profiled in publications like Vogue magazine

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Speaker 1: in The Washington Post about how great she is that

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Speaker 1: sort of leading these movements online. And she is just

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Speaker 1: a real badass and I'll never forget at at n

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Speaker 1: O I training. She that I was a participate in,

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Speaker 1: so I was not like leading the training. She told

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Speaker 1: this story of working for I think it was Emily's

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Speaker 1: List when she was just starting out in her career

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Speaker 1: and she was sending out a mass email and she

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Speaker 1: had done the heading so that it would personalize whoever

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Speaker 1: was getting this email. So if it was I was

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Speaker 1: getting it would say dear Bridget, if you were getting

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Speaker 1: it, it it would say dear Emily. And she tested it

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Speaker 1: and she got the test back and it said dear Jess.

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Speaker 1: So she was like, great, send it out perfect. What

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Speaker 1: she didn't realize is that everybody who got this email

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Speaker 1: this we're talking thousands upon thousands of people. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: I don't know what their list is like, but I

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Speaker 1: was gonna say millions. Yeah, it's probably huge. Um all

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Speaker 1: got this email that said dear Jess And so Emily's

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Speaker 1: List is already an organization that has a woman's name

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Speaker 1: in it. So people were just people were very, very confused,

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Speaker 1: to the point where this became a hashtag I am

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Speaker 1: Jess um and I just love that, you know, if

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Speaker 1: that had happened to me, I would be mortified, and

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Speaker 1: I'm sure she was mortified, but being able to talk

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Speaker 1: about it in this concrete, specific way of here's what happened,

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Speaker 1: here's what I did in the aftermath, and here's what

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Speaker 1: I learned. Almost every time I send an email, I

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Speaker 1: think about that story. I think about I am Jess,

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Speaker 1: and it's helped me tremendously. I love that and would

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Speaker 1: be this first admit that I have done exactly that,

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Speaker 1: except I remember I was being paid to write and

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Speaker 1: set up and send emails that were for fundraising purposes

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Speaker 1: on behalf of my clients, um before I started bossed up,

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Speaker 1: way back in the day, when I was a digital strategist,

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Speaker 1: and I got a link error, which is like one

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Speaker 1: of the worst because when you send someone with a

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Speaker 1: bad link, they can't donate. The whole reason you sent

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Speaker 1: that this email was so they could donate, which means

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Speaker 1: the only thing they can do and that circumstances unsubscribed.

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Speaker 1: So you just set your whole email list up to

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Speaker 1: give you a good reason why they should unsubscribe and

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Speaker 1: send you angry responses. And I remember realizing my mistake

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Speaker 1: taking it to my boss. My boss being very angry,

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Speaker 1: and then the client being very angry, and then myself

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Speaker 1: having to fix it and thinking to myself, there are

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Speaker 1: so many ways in which in this job I've been

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Speaker 1: set up to fail, Like, there's so many ways to

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Speaker 1: screw up, there are so many ways to mess up

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Speaker 1: that it was daunting. It made me want to It

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Speaker 1: almost paralyzed me. Have you ever felt that like rush

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Speaker 1: of blood to your cheeks? You're like mortified, humiliated. You're

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Speaker 1: supposed to be a professional at this and you know

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Speaker 1: you made a what it was a very basic mistake

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Speaker 1: and there wasn't anything you could say about it other

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Speaker 1: than listen, there's no one to blame but me. I

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Speaker 1: screwed up, And it just feels so like you just

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Speaker 1: want to crawl under a rock and maybe never do

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Speaker 1: this ever again. Like you're like, I can't even handle

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Speaker 1: this right now, that thing that you're describing, I've been

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Speaker 1: in that situation so many times, and I think that's

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Speaker 1: what That's why it's important that we talk about work failure,

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Speaker 1: because you shouldn't feel paralyzed when you make a mistake. Right,

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Speaker 1: Making a mistake is normal. It happens if you don't

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Speaker 1: have systems in place where that is under where that

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Speaker 1: is understood to be something that's going to happen, might happen,

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Speaker 1: might occur. Um. You know, that's really a better system.

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Speaker 1: And so I feel like when people describe feeling paralyzed,

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Speaker 1: feeling shame, shame, it's really this this spy roll of

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Speaker 1: Shane that starts to suck you down exactly, and then

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Speaker 1: you start wondering, am I my my mistake? Am I

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Speaker 1: good enough? Can I do this? All of that? And

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Speaker 1: um my, I mean I've made so many mistakes in

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Speaker 1: my in my come up, you know, working, um, but

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Speaker 1: one that really sticks with me is when I was

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Speaker 1: working at a media company doing social media for a

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Speaker 1: very large, uh media outlet that you've definitely heard of. Um,

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Speaker 1: it will not say the name. I don't know if

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Speaker 1: I don't know if there's a legal thing, so I

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Speaker 1: don't know. All right, let's just say it was the

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Speaker 1: network where they're Big Star, someone whose name rhymes with

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Speaker 1: Machel Manow. I just basically said it. But alright, so

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Speaker 1: I didn't say it, but figure it out and google it. Um.

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Speaker 1: And you know, this was for me. This was started

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Speaker 1: as kind of a dream job. But you know, especially

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Speaker 1: when you work in social media or some sort of

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Speaker 1: like media. These things like mistakes are gonna happen, right Like,

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Speaker 1: if you are you think you're logged into your personal

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Speaker 1: Twitter and you know you're out and you are accidentally

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Speaker 1: lugged into the brand Twitter, these things happen. And so

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Speaker 1: when I was there, it seemed like we never talked

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Speaker 1: about the times where people tweeted the wrong thing, even

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Speaker 1: if it was a low stakes, you know, a low

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Speaker 1: stakes error. We just didn't like. It seemed like it

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Speaker 1: was an environment where mistakes did not happen or or

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Speaker 1: could not happen. And so when inevitably you tweet the

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Speaker 1: wrong thing, it just seemed like like the world was

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Speaker 1: ending because there was no protocol. And what would have

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Speaker 1: been better is if you know, on day one we say,

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Speaker 1: here's what happens if you if you make a mistake

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Speaker 1: or if you tweet the wrong thing, do the wrong thing,

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Speaker 1: here's how we handle it. Here's what it looks like.

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Speaker 1: Here are the fail safes that we have in place

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Speaker 1: to avoid it. And when it did happen, because inevitably

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Speaker 1: it's going to happen, it just felt, you know, you

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Speaker 1: just felt so bad and so guilty and so incompetent.

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Speaker 1: But what's worse is that you felt like you had

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Speaker 1: done something that should never happen, no one has ever

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Speaker 1: done before exactly. It felt like a you felt like

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Speaker 1: a total anomaly. And I think, particularly as a woman

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Speaker 1: of color, and I think as women in fields that

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Speaker 1: are male dominated, you can start to feel like your

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Speaker 1: boss is thinking, oh, well, this is why, why why

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Speaker 1: we don't hire people like that? Right? Because women or

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Speaker 1: women of color or whatever, like, they make these mistakes,

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Speaker 1: and you really feel like you become your mistake and

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Speaker 1: it becomes so hard to overcome. I think that's such

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Speaker 1: a great point, and it's something that's grounded in research

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Speaker 1: that we're gonna We're gonna cover all in a minute.

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Speaker 1: But I also want to add that I have seen

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Speaker 1: this done better elsewhere, UM, and I've learned from companies

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Speaker 1: who have fail safes in place. So when I started

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Speaker 1: my own company, now, as we've learned and grown through

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Speaker 1: our own mistakes, through the many wonderful mistakes we've made. UM,

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Speaker 1: what I now have is a part of our onboarding process,

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Speaker 1: is one of our how we do what we do

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Speaker 1: kind of norms that we cover with our staff. We

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Speaker 1: have a rule, UM, that's known as bad news doesn't

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Speaker 1: age well. So when you do make a mistake, the

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Speaker 1: thing that is most important is that you tell someone

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Speaker 1: about it asap. That could have I mean, and just

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Speaker 1: lifting that as a thing is so important. Just having

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Speaker 1: like having a boss who says, here's what happens when

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Speaker 1: whether you're managing people or being managed by someone or neither,

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Speaker 1: but just having a uh sort of institute of protocol

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Speaker 1: quiet about it, because you know it doesn't It doesn't

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Speaker 1: get better when you're dealing with it alone, and it

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Speaker 1: certainly doesn't get better when you try to cover up

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Speaker 1: your mistakes, which then becomes a whole other mistake in

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Speaker 1: and of itself, as we've seen play out in the

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Speaker 1: political arena a million times over. So you know, I

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Speaker 1: think it's I would love to hear from our listeners

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Speaker 1: an organization who handles mistake making well or have you

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Speaker 1: been you know, have you ever had a protocol in

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Speaker 1: about when things are not going so well, because you know,

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Speaker 1: nobody feels great when they screw up. And you also,

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Speaker 1: I'm not saying like women should go out there bragging

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Speaker 1: about all the ways they messed up. Right, We don't

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Speaker 1: need to dwell on our mistakes, but we do need

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Speaker 1: to feel um comfortable talking about our career performance separately

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Speaker 1: from our self worth. You you know, your success is

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Speaker 1: not equivalent to your self worth. And the more we

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Speaker 1: can actually embrace that in a country that's so fixated

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Speaker 1: here in the United States on our identity being wrapped

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Speaker 1: up in our careers, I think the better. I think

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Speaker 1: that's so so true, and I think, you know, I

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Speaker 1: was really lucky to spend a couple of months working

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Speaker 1: for a Silicon Valley like startup in environment, and that

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Speaker 1: was the whole thing, was a learning environment or learning

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Speaker 1: experience for me because I had never worked in Silicon

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Speaker 1: Valley before, I had never worked in a tech space before.

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Speaker 1: But something that I really took away from that was

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Speaker 1: that they really did, and I don't know if this

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Speaker 1: is like a Silicon Valley thing or right where if

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Speaker 1: you mess something up, they kind of embraced that in

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Speaker 1: a way I had never seen before. And honestly, I

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Speaker 1: it was great, but um, you know this idea that

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Speaker 1: they really wanted you to try things, and that failing

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Speaker 1: at things it's part of trying things, and they'd rather

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Speaker 1: have you out there, you know, taking risks and trying

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Speaker 1: new things and have it pay off, and also have

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Speaker 1: it not pay off then have you play it safe learned.

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Speaker 1: Learning to embrace that was very uncomfortable for me, But

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Speaker 1: once I did, I did some of my best work,

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Speaker 1: Like the work I did that I'm most proud of

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Speaker 1: came from that environment where they were like, yeah, if

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Speaker 1: you mess this up, well it happens, try again, right,

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Speaker 1: and what can we learn from what didn't work? Right?

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Speaker 1: Throwing everything against the will feeling innovative. It's part of

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Speaker 1: the um the lean startup mentality, which is an organization

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Speaker 1: and a book by Eric Reese, and in it that's

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Speaker 1: where the mantra like fail fast came from. And this

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Speaker 1: idea of failing fast really embraces the innovative power of

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Speaker 1: trying things to test your assumption assumptions. So when I

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Speaker 1: started Bossed Up, I had recently read that book and

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Speaker 1: set off to test my assumptions and see what worked

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Speaker 1: and what didn't, so you could actually lean into that failure,

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Speaker 1: to be cliche about it and see, Okay, the data

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Speaker 1: says that, uh, one on one coaching through bossed Up

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Speaker 1: was not selling, and you know boot camps, these events

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Speaker 1: were selling. So guess what. I pivoted away from what

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Speaker 1: was an early failure and focused on doubling down and

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Speaker 1: what was an early success. And that's proven to be

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Speaker 1: very helpful. And and continuously challenging your assumptions in a

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Speaker 1: business model is one thing, but being comfortable with your

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Speaker 1: personal career failings is can be way more challenging, because well,

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Speaker 1: what if you had said, you know, I'm I'm doing

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Speaker 1: one on one coaching. It's not working out, but this

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Speaker 1: was my plan and I'm doing Like what if you

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Speaker 1: had not pivoted, You know, when you being able to

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Speaker 1: take a step back and say, maybe I got it

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Speaker 1: wrong on this and maybe there's a way to you know,

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Speaker 1: make this more successful, that's so important. Yeah, and there's

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Speaker 1: also a case for persevering, so that the challenge always

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Speaker 1: comes down to pivot or persevere. And I think of

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Speaker 1: famous failures like Michael Jordan, who was cut from his

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Speaker 1: high school basketball team. Had he not persevered, we wouldn't

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Speaker 1: have had Michael Jordan's. So you have to make that

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Speaker 1: decision for yourself of UM, what do I want to

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Speaker 1: focus on for growth? And what do I want to

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Speaker 1: pivot away from UM? And that's okay, right, Like, only

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Speaker 1: you can really make that decision. Should we take a

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Speaker 1: quick break, let's a quick break. Let's take a quick break.

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Speaker 1: When we come back, We've got a lot more to

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Speaker 1: talk about, including some of the research around why women

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Speaker 1: in particular can struggle with perfectionism. The dirty P word

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Speaker 1: in this Yes, it's not the effort, the dirty P

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Speaker 1: maybe maybe the effort. I'm gonna stop saying that. Let's

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Speaker 1: not say that. All right, we'll be right back. I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna get it together, and we're back. And I didn't

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Speaker 1: get it together because I still want to say the

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Speaker 1: dirty P word. But I think it's important that we

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Speaker 1: acknowledge how gender plays a role in failure, in making

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Speaker 1: it hard to own our failures or in another way

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Speaker 1: of looking at sort of on the flip side. Uh,

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Speaker 1: girls and women and perfectionism, which is so personal to

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Speaker 1: me because I've totally struggled with perfectionism of my whole life. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and you're You're very clearly not alone. According to the research,

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Speaker 1: and so, women are much more likely than men to

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Speaker 1: be perfectionists in both their family lives, personal lives, and

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Speaker 1: in their work lives. A study by the Journal of

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Speaker 1: Occupational and Organizational Psychology I found that women, you know,

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Speaker 1: higher percentage of women feel if they don't meet their

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Speaker 1: own very high standards when it comes to family or

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Speaker 1: workplace commitments. And so women are putting very high standards

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Speaker 1: on themselves and then really being very hard on them

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Speaker 1: when they're unable to meet these impossibly hard standards. Is

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Speaker 1: sound familiar to you, so familiar in fact, I'm just

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Speaker 1: thinking of a recent attende at this past weekend's Boston

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Speaker 1: boot Camp. In her application, she said to me, listen,

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Speaker 1: I honestly, I am coming to this boot camp because

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Speaker 1: I feel like I'm doing mediocre in all aspects of

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Speaker 1: my life right now, and I'm just thinking, of course,

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Speaker 1: women need to be perfect in all aspects of our

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Speaker 1: lives at every time. Right. Of course, that kind of

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Speaker 1: role overload is what we're dealing with. But her underlying

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Speaker 1: assumption there is that she shouldn't be mediocre in all

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Speaker 1: aspects of her life at any time when I'm thinking,

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Speaker 1: maybe kill it in one area of your life, right right,

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Speaker 1: And I've I've learned over the years, and still I'm

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Speaker 1: trying to embrace being mediocre at some things so as

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Speaker 1: to be great at one thing, but only one thing

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Speaker 1: to die you can't be I mean maybe some people

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Speaker 1: are not me, but it's I would a man shouldn't

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Speaker 1: be hard to be killing it at all aspects, you know,

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Speaker 1: your romantic life, your professional life, your educational life, or

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Speaker 1: family life, like your fitness life, all the things. Who

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Speaker 1: does that or who can't? I can't. Well, the Internet

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Speaker 1: makes it seem like everybody does that, And I think

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Speaker 1: that's such a You hit on something that I think

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Speaker 1: is so important is that social media I think plays

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Speaker 1: a huge role in this where you know, I that's

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Speaker 1: something that I've struggled with a little bit where it

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Speaker 1: seems like all my friends, you know, they post about

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Speaker 1: their big promotion or killing it at work. Nobody posts

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Speaker 1: about the time when they cried in the bathroom at work.

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Speaker 1: But we've done it. You know. No one posts about

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Speaker 1: the time where they you know, had to you know,

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Speaker 1: call their dad, you know, asking for advice on basic

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Speaker 1: stuff they should know, Like, nobody posts about that. And

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Speaker 1: I think that it's very easy to think everyone's crushing

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Speaker 1: it because that's what it looks like. And so if

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Speaker 1: you're not crushing it, you're alone and something's wrong with

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Speaker 1: you and you're bad. Um. And I think, you know, yeah,

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Speaker 1: And I think the research really does show that one,

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Speaker 1: this is something that women deal with especially and then too,

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Speaker 1: the arrived to be perfect starts from a very young age,

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Speaker 1: which I found really sad. I mean, according to this

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Speaker 1: study by Girl Guiding UK, a quarter of women or

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Speaker 1: young girls from age seven to ten felt the need

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Speaker 1: to be perfect. And I just think that that word

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Speaker 1: perfection that just you know, it kind of broke my

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Speaker 1: heart a little bit that these very young girls, school

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Speaker 1: aged girls already feel that that dry that they have

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Speaker 1: to have everything together all the time. Yeah. I think

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Speaker 1: the idea of good girl culture is very very real.

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Speaker 1: And there was a great article about this in the

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Speaker 1: New York Times um that was titled for Girls it's

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Speaker 1: be yourself and be perfect too. So there's this idea

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Speaker 1: of saying, you know, little girls are expected to be

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Speaker 1: the um embodiment of perfection and innocence and poise and

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Speaker 1: sweetness and smarts and this and and it's all getting

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Speaker 1: leveled on top of women's changing roles speaking. But historically

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Speaker 1: we thought, you know, to be a good woman has

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Speaker 1: meant very different things over the decades and over the

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Speaker 1: millennia of time. But instead of saying now women should

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Speaker 1: just be one way or just be another, all of

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Speaker 1: our changing roles that we've been balancing from bread winner

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Speaker 1: to homemaker and everything in between have been added on top.

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Speaker 1: That's impossible. And that's part of the overwhelmed and the

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Speaker 1: discussion of overwhelming today's society, which I find really fascinating.

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Speaker 1: It definitely hits women differently than how we condition boys

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Speaker 1: to be and men to be. Yeah, and I think, um,

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Speaker 1: one of the places I saw this really expertly broken

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Speaker 1: down is in this book by Jessicaple Hall Mistakes I

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Speaker 1: Made at Work and really this is the title is

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Speaker 1: exactly what it sounds like. It's her and she talks

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Speaker 1: to very influential women in media, health, science, tech all

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Speaker 1: across these industries, and they're just talking about these big

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Speaker 1: screwups at work and what they learned from them, how

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Speaker 1: they handled them. And I really think that it's it's

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Speaker 1: that kind of work changes that can help change this

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Speaker 1: perception for women that you have to be perfect and

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Speaker 1: killing it on all cylinders all the time, otherwise you're

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Speaker 1: falling behind. And it just really allows for a more

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Speaker 1: a more realistic version a view of how we think

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Speaker 1: about women at work. Yeah. I love it because it's

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Speaker 1: really an anthology of short stories that she edited, and

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Speaker 1: she sort of sets up for for each different chapter.

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Speaker 1: So if you're looking for a quick read, you know,

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Speaker 1: this is a great one because it's one of those

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Speaker 1: books you can pick up and put down whatever you want.

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Speaker 1: And I loved hearing from famous women who have historically

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Speaker 1: been known for their success, is getting very real and

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Speaker 1: very specific about how they dealt with their challenges. Who

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Speaker 1: is the author of um that? You know? She was

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Speaker 1: played by Reese Witherspoon in the hiking movie The Cheryl

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Speaker 1: Cheryl Straight Yeah, so Cheryl Strade rights in there. And

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Speaker 1: I had just finished and loved Wild Cheryl Strade's book,

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Speaker 1: Uh and in in Jessica Macalls book mistakes I make

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Speaker 1: at work. Carrol's told this very beautiful story of how

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Speaker 1: an editor had once sent her a short story back.

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Speaker 1: And as a writer, you've got to get used to failure.

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Speaker 1: It's like part of how you dealing. You know. The

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Speaker 1: most famous books of all times were rejected by twenty

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Speaker 1: five publishers, like J. K. Rowling was rejected time and

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Speaker 1: time and time. And such a good example she is

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Speaker 1: because the first I think the first Harry Potter book

430
00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:22,800
Speaker 1: she sold for pennies and it's just such a great

431
00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:26,840
Speaker 1: you know, overcoming that is where resilience comes from. But um,

432
00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:30,200
Speaker 1: to go back to Cheryl, she wrote about how a publication,

433
00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:31,919
Speaker 1: I think it was a big magazine came back to

434
00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:33,400
Speaker 1: her and said, sure, we love it, but you need

435
00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:35,800
Speaker 1: to cut it in half. You need to cut the

436
00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:39,040
Speaker 1: word count down. And this is someone who as an artiste,

437
00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:42,080
Speaker 1: as a writer, you know, there's this idea that you've

438
00:22:42,119 --> 00:22:44,439
Speaker 1: polished your work to perfection, and she had. She had

439
00:22:44,560 --> 00:22:48,040
Speaker 1: labored over this thing until it's been edited down to

440
00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:50,760
Speaker 1: every point of it was like the essence of what

441
00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:53,119
Speaker 1: the short story needed to be. And she thought to herself,

442
00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:57,360
Speaker 1: I'm an artist I can't butcher my work for the

443
00:22:57,440 --> 00:23:00,440
Speaker 1: dollar that this person is offering me. And and she said,

444
00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:03,840
Speaker 1: you know what, I'm an artist and I need not

445
00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:06,600
Speaker 1: only do I need the money, but as an artist,

446
00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:10,200
Speaker 1: it's part of my craft to be able to reshape

447
00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:12,320
Speaker 1: the work. And so she got out of her creative head.

448
00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:15,399
Speaker 1: Maybe I'm also drawing the story from her other book

449
00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:19,880
Speaker 1: on shoot actually visit I think this my am I kidding?

450
00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:22,560
Speaker 1: This mixed up with Elizabeth Gilbert? Is this an on

451
00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:29,000
Speaker 1: air you guys, um listeners, Let me level with your

452
00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:32,280
Speaker 1: for a second. I think I just made an error myself.

453
00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:36,080
Speaker 1: I'm not even kidding. I misremembering. I don't remember. This

454
00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:38,680
Speaker 1: is Elizabeth Gilbert in her great book Big Magic, which

455
00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:42,760
Speaker 1: is about the writing process and creativity in creative fields altogether,

456
00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:46,200
Speaker 1: or Cheryl Strait, the author of Wild in Jet couple

457
00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:50,920
Speaker 1: call books. But regardless, the point stands whichever brilliant writer

458
00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:53,800
Speaker 1: this was. She told a really wonderful and relatable story

459
00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:56,600
Speaker 1: about having to edit down which felt was a masterpiece already,

460
00:23:56,600 --> 00:23:59,040
Speaker 1: just to get it published and get that get that money,

461
00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:02,240
Speaker 1: get that dollars. So here, I am trying to walk

462
00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:06,560
Speaker 1: the walk in mid air, midtime mid podcast regarding be

463
00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:09,439
Speaker 1: kind to me Twitter about you? I mean, is you

464
00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:11,080
Speaker 1: don't want to get caught at a trap of profession.

465
00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:13,600
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh my god, I'm flushed right now. Are Yeah,

466
00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:15,879
Speaker 1: you can see where you can see her she is.

467
00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:19,440
Speaker 1: I am sweating. You're really illustrating the point of like mistakes.

468
00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:21,320
Speaker 1: You want to be perfect, and it doesn't always happen,

469
00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:24,119
Speaker 1: and even in a setting like this, you know what happens.

470
00:24:24,119 --> 00:24:26,000
Speaker 1: I'm cringing because I feel like this is going to

471
00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:28,960
Speaker 1: read like a setup. We did not plan this, listeners,

472
00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:31,760
Speaker 1: we did not play this, although we're not going to

473
00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:33,639
Speaker 1: be brilliant. If you did, like that would have been

474
00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:36,439
Speaker 1: so smart. Actually sweating now, I can't handle this. So

475
00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:39,159
Speaker 1: here's you know why I'm now that I'm basking in

476
00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:42,000
Speaker 1: failure right now. You know why I get so flushed.

477
00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:46,359
Speaker 1: You know why it feels so lousy because I feel

478
00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:48,000
Speaker 1: like this is my thing, Like I want to be

479
00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:52,080
Speaker 1: able to talk about this and have your credibility, and

480
00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:54,359
Speaker 1: this is part of you know, I want to have

481
00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:57,040
Speaker 1: your credibility because I take my work seriously, because I

482
00:24:57,080 --> 00:24:59,760
Speaker 1: take my profession seriously. And that's when it hurts the

483
00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:02,640
Speaker 1: most when you care yeah, I really care. You pour

484
00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:05,280
Speaker 1: yourself into it and you know that other people's judgment

485
00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:08,800
Speaker 1: does matter totally. This is really is like a playing

486
00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:11,240
Speaker 1: out like a case study. Is that because you couldn't

487
00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:14,639
Speaker 1: remember if you read this you know fascinating tip factoid

488
00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:16,760
Speaker 1: in this book or that book. If it doesn't mean

489
00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:19,200
Speaker 1: that you you know, are doing a bad job because

490
00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:21,920
Speaker 1: because you're not your mistake, right, like you feel better?

491
00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:26,720
Speaker 1: Bridget Yeah, I should offer someone on one coaching. I

492
00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:30,680
Speaker 1: like what you've just said, I think is so resonates

493
00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:32,600
Speaker 1: so much for me. So one of the stories in

494
00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:34,680
Speaker 1: the Book of Failure, it's not the name of the book,

495
00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:38,600
Speaker 1: but book the big um is a medical doctor, which

496
00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:42,920
Speaker 1: again I mean I think medical doctors I can't even imagine,

497
00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:44,680
Speaker 1: or people who are in the medical profession. I can't

498
00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:48,600
Speaker 1: even imagine the level of um anxiety they must have

499
00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:50,919
Speaker 1: around mistakes because you could kill someone. Right if I

500
00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:55,239
Speaker 1: tweet a swear word from an account I shouldn't do.

501
00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:57,280
Speaker 1: No one's gonna die. But if you're a doctor and

502
00:25:57,280 --> 00:25:58,959
Speaker 1: you make a mistake, or a nurse and you make

503
00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:01,560
Speaker 1: a mistake, or you know a caregiver and you make

504
00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:04,360
Speaker 1: a mistake, someone's life is in your hands. And there

505
00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:07,560
Speaker 1: was a wildly popular ted talk that people watched and

506
00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:10,760
Speaker 1: shared with millions of times about doctors and mistakes. And

507
00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:14,720
Speaker 1: I think, you know, even someone in that high stakes,

508
00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:17,320
Speaker 1: high pressure field talking about their mistakes, I think is

509
00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:21,520
Speaker 1: valuable and it maybe even seems scary, right, the idea that, yeah,

510
00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:23,800
Speaker 1: your doctor could make a mistake, because guess what, we

511
00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:26,680
Speaker 1: all make mistakes, and yeah, we need to accept that

512
00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:29,640
Speaker 1: that doctors aren't you know, robots to someone whose family

513
00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:31,959
Speaker 1: umber died on the table, Yeah, it's it's it's like,

514
00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:34,359
Speaker 1: how do you even it's so heavy. So this doctor

515
00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:37,600
Speaker 1: talks a little bit about how she almost missed a

516
00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:41,800
Speaker 1: very very obvious, um, you know, warning sign uh someone.

517
00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:43,439
Speaker 1: This was at the height of the eighth epidemic, and

518
00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:45,920
Speaker 1: she was overwhelmed with patients and just sort of tired

519
00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:48,439
Speaker 1: and frazzled, and she thought one of her patients was

520
00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:50,119
Speaker 1: just a little bit out of it, and that it

521
00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:52,320
Speaker 1: turns out that later she had missed a massive brain

522
00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:53,879
Speaker 1: bleed which could have killed him if he had been

523
00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:56,240
Speaker 1: sent home. And so what she says that she learned

524
00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:59,760
Speaker 1: from this mistake was mistakes, aren't this external thing, this

525
00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:02,159
Speaker 1: verse event we make a mistake, but we are not

526
00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:04,720
Speaker 1: the mistake. And then she also talks a little bit

527
00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:07,520
Speaker 1: about guilt and shame. You know, um, when you make

528
00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:10,840
Speaker 1: a mistake, the distinction between guilt and shame. Guilt, she says,

529
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:13,840
Speaker 1: is regret for a certain action, but shame is deeper

530
00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:16,320
Speaker 1: and more painful. It's the realization that you're not the

531
00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:18,480
Speaker 1: person you thought you were. The point is that it's

532
00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:20,600
Speaker 1: okay to feel guilty about making a mistake, but we

533
00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:23,399
Speaker 1: shouldn't be ashamed. That's such a great point and Burnet

534
00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:27,080
Speaker 1: Brown is known for her research on shame, and she

535
00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:30,560
Speaker 1: also hammered that home. It's the distinction between externalizing and

536
00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:34,560
Speaker 1: internalizing failure. So as best as we can when we're

537
00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:37,560
Speaker 1: in the heat of that, I'm ashamed for not being

538
00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:41,119
Speaker 1: as you know, as well researched as I thought I was,

539
00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:42,960
Speaker 1: or as smart as I thought I was where I

540
00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:45,560
Speaker 1: thought I was. Uh. I thought I was someone who

541
00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:47,560
Speaker 1: had a good memory. I thought I was someone who

542
00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:50,440
Speaker 1: really knows my stuff. Like instead of saying, wow, I'm

543
00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:52,840
Speaker 1: not the boss I thought I was, or I'm not

544
00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:56,040
Speaker 1: as good as I thought I was saying, you know this,

545
00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:59,560
Speaker 1: these two things are really similar. Here's what happened. Here's

546
00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:01,720
Speaker 1: the ex a nation. Here's the story I'm going to

547
00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:08,200
Speaker 1: tell myself that externalizes the um the mistake and doesn't

548
00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:11,280
Speaker 1: say that you are a human being who is mistaken.

549
00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:14,560
Speaker 1: I think Brene talked about it by saying, it's the

550
00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:19,560
Speaker 1: difference between saying I'm not good at math versus I

551
00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:22,600
Speaker 1: didn't study enough for the right where you know, it's

552
00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:24,960
Speaker 1: okay to feel, you know, I wish I would have studied,

553
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:27,919
Speaker 1: but internalizing it is I am not the person I

554
00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:29,600
Speaker 1: thought I was. I thought I was good and I

555
00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:32,960
Speaker 1: am bad. And you know whose research really hit home

556
00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:37,240
Speaker 1: on that particular distinction is Carol Dweck. That's d W E.

557
00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:41,200
Speaker 1: C K. Carol Dwex. Book Mindset came out way back,

558
00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:43,720
Speaker 1: I think in the nineties seventies, I want to say,

559
00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:47,920
Speaker 1: and it was revolutionary because she distinguished between what she

560
00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:52,760
Speaker 1: calls a growth mindset and a fixed trait mindset. And

561
00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:55,360
Speaker 1: this was revolutionary for me. The book holds up, you know,

562
00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:57,840
Speaker 1: through the ages, so I highly recommend it um to

563
00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:02,560
Speaker 1: anyone who's listening. But the growth set mindset, what did

564
00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:06,200
Speaker 1: I just say? No, the growth mindset, I'm really like

565
00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:09,960
Speaker 1: demonstrating failure, really well today, I'm just doing you all

566
00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:12,400
Speaker 1: my I'm just trying to do my due diligence here

567
00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:14,320
Speaker 1: to show you what it looks like to screw up

568
00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:17,200
Speaker 1: on air. No mag deal. But growth mindset is the

569
00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:23,160
Speaker 1: ability to um learn from your mistakes by seeing errors, missteps,

570
00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:27,640
Speaker 1: mistakes as an opportunity for growth, and to see all people,

571
00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:31,920
Speaker 1: everyone as having the potential to grow and learn and improve.

572
00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:35,840
Speaker 1: A fixed traite mindset is I'm just not good at math,

573
00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:39,000
Speaker 1: or I'm not a great public speaker, or I was

574
00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:42,680
Speaker 1: born with certain traits and without certain other traits, and

575
00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:45,280
Speaker 1: no matter what I do, no matter how much effort

576
00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:48,240
Speaker 1: I put into it, I cannot improve. And you'd be

577
00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:50,720
Speaker 1: surprised how many of us were raised one way or

578
00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:54,440
Speaker 1: the other and how much that impacts your risk tolerance.

579
00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:57,360
Speaker 1: Movie Forward. That is such a good point. I see

580
00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:00,240
Speaker 1: that so much in my personal life. I mean, my

581
00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:03,600
Speaker 1: my own personal um, you know, growth with failure. I

582
00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:06,000
Speaker 1: hear a lot about young women growing up who feel

583
00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:08,120
Speaker 1: like they're not allowed to fail, they have to be perfect.

584
00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:11,240
Speaker 1: That's so far from where I was growing up. I mean,

585
00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:14,280
Speaker 1: I was sort of um, I mean, this is making

586
00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:16,160
Speaker 1: me sound awful, but I was just the girl who

587
00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:18,120
Speaker 1: was like, you know, I lived really close to school

588
00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:19,560
Speaker 1: when I was late every day, Right, I was the

589
00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:23,280
Speaker 1: girl who was like I became very comfortable with failure

590
00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:26,960
Speaker 1: and mistakes pretty early on, and it almost was kind

591
00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:29,440
Speaker 1: of freeing, Like I I never I never feel like

592
00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:32,160
Speaker 1: I got down on myself about it. I in fact

593
00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:36,640
Speaker 1: kind of enjoyed a level of freedom to try things

594
00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:39,760
Speaker 1: and abandoned things and scrupp at things and you know,

595
00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:43,200
Speaker 1: do things and not really internalize it because I I

596
00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:46,040
Speaker 1: kind of got this people just it's just sort of

597
00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:48,280
Speaker 1: was like, Oh, that's how she is, Like she will

598
00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:50,360
Speaker 1: try things and then be like, oh it didn't work, clops,

599
00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:52,360
Speaker 1: and you know, not, you know, and just move on

600
00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:55,000
Speaker 1: to the next thing. And I saw my you know,

601
00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:58,800
Speaker 1: my friends who struggled so badly trying you know, whether

602
00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:00,960
Speaker 1: it was sports and things like that, Like I just

603
00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:03,400
Speaker 1: never I was just sort of known as the girl who,

604
00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:06,760
Speaker 1: you know, I was pretty easy going about my failure,

605
00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:10,640
Speaker 1: and I watched a lot of my classmates really not

606
00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:13,760
Speaker 1: be that way and really have a hard time with it. Yeah,

607
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:16,480
Speaker 1: you're just grab Yeah, I think that's part of the

608
00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:19,200
Speaker 1: the appeal to you and I, by the way, that

609
00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:22,160
Speaker 1: I think that's that. Not that we're all exactly who

610
00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:26,000
Speaker 1: we were in fifth grade hoever, but you're easy going nature.

611
00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:29,080
Speaker 1: Might I call it type B Yeah, I am. I

612
00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:32,160
Speaker 1: am so sadly I might be type I'm so Sobibly,

613
00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:38,120
Speaker 1: I think Mesh is beautifully with my sometimes overwhelmingly uptight

614
00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:41,200
Speaker 1: type ANUS that I think. I think we've both got

615
00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:44,080
Speaker 1: our stuff together. But I also think that we come

616
00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:46,680
Speaker 1: to this project, that we come to this podcast with

617
00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:49,600
Speaker 1: very different strengths, And one thing I love about working

618
00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:52,520
Speaker 1: with you is how we balance each other out in

619
00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:54,320
Speaker 1: that way. I think that's I think that's so true.

620
00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:57,040
Speaker 1: I remember being in school and getting some sort of

621
00:31:57,160 --> 00:31:59,960
Speaker 1: art project assignment where the teacher was like, oh, don't

622
00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:01,760
Speaker 1: if you don't, don't do it this way, because if

623
00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:04,120
Speaker 1: you do, it's gonna mess up. And the girl sitting

624
00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:06,520
Speaker 1: next to me did exactly the wrong thing, and like

625
00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:08,760
Speaker 1: he had clearly like hidden her paper so no one

626
00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:12,840
Speaker 1: saw it. Art. I'm sorry, what topic is. I think

627
00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:16,280
Speaker 1: we're making like snowflakes or something where if you cut

628
00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:18,520
Speaker 1: along the wrong side of the paper, your snowflake would

629
00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:22,840
Speaker 1: be destroyed. Snowlake was gonna hang that on their tree.

630
00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:25,640
Speaker 1: I hate your snowflake kids. And I saw so many

631
00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:28,360
Speaker 1: of my classmates do it wrong and be really stressed

632
00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:30,840
Speaker 1: out about it. But then others do it wrong and

633
00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:32,640
Speaker 1: they're like, I did it wrong, you know, And you

634
00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:35,120
Speaker 1: can really see how these things present themselves early on.

635
00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:37,320
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, so true, Carol d I tested this

636
00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:40,320
Speaker 1: with children. One of her groundbreaking studies with was with

637
00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:43,160
Speaker 1: grade school aged children giving them puzzles, and it was

638
00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:47,560
Speaker 1: fascinating to see they would give you incrementally more difficult puzzles,

639
00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:52,800
Speaker 1: and once you would start to struggle with the challenging puzzles,

640
00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:55,480
Speaker 1: they would give you an option, do you want to

641
00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:59,080
Speaker 1: go back and do the same easier puzzle over again

642
00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:02,240
Speaker 1: that you just did, or would you like another puzzle?

643
00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:05,320
Speaker 1: And some of the kids would say, Oh, I love

644
00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:09,160
Speaker 1: a challenge, bring it on and relish the opportunity. One

645
00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:11,320
Speaker 1: kid even said, I hoped I was going to learn

646
00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:15,480
Speaker 1: something today. A lot of the kids, like type a

647
00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:18,719
Speaker 1: little fifth grade Emily would have said said, I'll just

648
00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:21,080
Speaker 1: do the other puzzle over again so I can feel

649
00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:23,640
Speaker 1: like I'm good at Oh that's fascinating. I mean I

650
00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:28,160
Speaker 1: would have been like, do you have any boring Yeah,

651
00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:31,560
Speaker 1: that's so fascinating, I mean, and it just shows you

652
00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:34,080
Speaker 1: how you missed the opportunity to learn when you want

653
00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:36,000
Speaker 1: to play it safe. And I've seen this play out

654
00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:40,080
Speaker 1: in my adult life too, and you've wanted to stay

655
00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:43,800
Speaker 1: away from the potential for failure, and therefore you stay

656
00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:45,920
Speaker 1: in the lane. You think you know the domain, you

657
00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:49,920
Speaker 1: feel comfortable and already, and you never grow and it

658
00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:53,680
Speaker 1: validates here, I'm a good girl, you know response, because

659
00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:58,400
Speaker 1: you want that gold stick, you want that validation. But

660
00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:00,360
Speaker 1: what we need to do, and this is pare jects

661
00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:03,160
Speaker 1: like research applied in the form of parenting and teaching,

662
00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:07,520
Speaker 1: and the whole mindset space is pretty huge, is reinforce

663
00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:12,000
Speaker 1: and reward learning, even if it's through failure or success.

664
00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:15,040
Speaker 1: So what did you learn? Not like you get? You

665
00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:17,680
Speaker 1: got me a's all. I'm gonna reward your A, which

666
00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:20,160
Speaker 1: is definitely how my household was run. And you know,

667
00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:22,440
Speaker 1: no no shade out there for the parents. And because

668
00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:25,200
Speaker 1: there's I feel like there's enough pressure want to be

669
00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:29,319
Speaker 1: a perfect parent that this becomes very meta. But I

670
00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:32,640
Speaker 1: just found that growth mindset stuff fascinating and its applications

671
00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:37,080
Speaker 1: across shame and personal life, professional life and beyond. So

672
00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:39,160
Speaker 1: I think you hit on something really important, which is

673
00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:42,759
Speaker 1: how we should be responding when folks, if you, if

674
00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:45,760
Speaker 1: you're a manager or if you, you know, are managing folks,

675
00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:48,120
Speaker 1: how you should be responding, um, you know, when they

676
00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:50,520
Speaker 1: make mistakes, and how how you can sort of help normalize,

677
00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:53,600
Speaker 1: you know, culture of mistake making as loading processes, UM.

678
00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:55,680
Speaker 1: And I think we should talk about those after we

679
00:34:55,680 --> 00:35:06,280
Speaker 1: take a quick break and we're back. We're just getting

680
00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:09,600
Speaker 1: worked up talking about our mistakes and failure and really

681
00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:12,000
Speaker 1: how a lot of it, like many things in life,

682
00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:14,640
Speaker 1: tend to be a bit gendered, and so women are

683
00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:16,440
Speaker 1: really getting the short into the stick and when it

684
00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:19,799
Speaker 1: comes to um being allowed and given the space to

685
00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:24,560
Speaker 1: fail and fail gracefully in work scenarios. And what's interesting

686
00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:26,640
Speaker 1: about this is I think it really is important to

687
00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:29,879
Speaker 1: talk about how gender makes a difference. And so as

688
00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:32,040
Speaker 1: we were just saying, women are sort of, you know,

689
00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:34,279
Speaker 1: more likely to be perfectionists, and part of that, I

690
00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:36,719
Speaker 1: think is this idea of the glass cliff. And so

691
00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:39,760
Speaker 1: the glass cliff is this idea that women they feel

692
00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:43,040
Speaker 1: like their mistakes are sort of magnified and so they're

693
00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:46,040
Speaker 1: not sort of given room to make these kinds of

694
00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:48,359
Speaker 1: mistakes in a way that is fair. Right, Like, if

695
00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:50,759
Speaker 1: you're a woman, especially in a male dominated space, or

696
00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:52,920
Speaker 1: a woman of color, if you make a mistake, it

697
00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:56,440
Speaker 1: feels like that mistake is heightened and magnified, and it

698
00:35:56,520 --> 00:35:58,840
Speaker 1: kind of you can kind of get this anxiety around

699
00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:02,160
Speaker 1: being seen as one that's you know, constantly making mistakes,

700
00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:05,320
Speaker 1: are incompetent or anything like that. Yeah, the glass cliff

701
00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:10,920
Speaker 1: is it's also grounded in social science around minority versus

702
00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:14,880
Speaker 1: majority environments. So anyone who's a minority in a majority

703
00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:19,200
Speaker 1: environment and might be men in the occupation of the O, B,

704
00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:22,279
Speaker 1: G U, I. N Field for instance, or women in

705
00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:27,640
Speaker 1: leadership anywhere, really and especially women of color because of

706
00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:33,000
Speaker 1: your heightened visibility. Um. This also is similarly, it's actually

707
00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:36,560
Speaker 1: related to something in the research called stereotype threat. So

708
00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:41,400
Speaker 1: when you have heightened visibility based on your minority status

709
00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:45,200
Speaker 1: in any group, when you make a mistake, you feel

710
00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:47,719
Speaker 1: like you are often you know, and you have this

711
00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:50,560
Speaker 1: fear rightly, so because people often do this, people are

712
00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:54,960
Speaker 1: seeing your mistakes as emblematic of your race, or your gender,

713
00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:59,560
Speaker 1: or your the entire minority group you're representing. So when

714
00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:01,600
Speaker 1: you're the only black woman, let's say, at the in

715
00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:04,680
Speaker 1: the boardroom, and god forbid you make a mistake in

716
00:37:04,719 --> 00:37:10,399
Speaker 1: such a publicly visible arena, you are uh, not only

717
00:37:10,520 --> 00:37:13,799
Speaker 1: more likely to be seen as you know, oh here

718
00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:18,000
Speaker 1: goes another you know, insert whatever racial stereotype or gender

719
00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:22,080
Speaker 1: stereotype you want. They're making mistakes, but you're also given

720
00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:26,080
Speaker 1: less Uh what is the word less benefit of the

721
00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:29,879
Speaker 1: doubt less freedom to make mistakes because you're not only

722
00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:33,000
Speaker 1: more visible, but you're also you know, just it's not

723
00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:36,160
Speaker 1: seen as another white dude who's making an average, every

724
00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:39,000
Speaker 1: day mistake. Totally, And I've seen that play out so

725
00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:41,360
Speaker 1: many times, like time and time and time again, and

726
00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:44,200
Speaker 1: I think part of it is this idea that I

727
00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:48,360
Speaker 1: believe that for white male employees, there's a lot of

728
00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:50,440
Speaker 1: us like giving them the benefit of the doubt and

729
00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:54,440
Speaker 1: not assuming male intent. And I think that women people

730
00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:57,719
Speaker 1: of color do not get that same that same you know,

731
00:37:58,640 --> 00:38:01,080
Speaker 1: that same leeway. Men are often promoted based on their

732
00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:04,840
Speaker 1: potential loans, whereas women and minority folks or people of

733
00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:08,840
Speaker 1: color really more more largely are promoted on their past experience.

734
00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:11,200
Speaker 1: And I even think, I know I mentioned before, you know,

735
00:38:11,239 --> 00:38:13,160
Speaker 1: being in a Silicon Valley startup that I felt like

736
00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:16,200
Speaker 1: I got this leeway to fail all that, But even

737
00:38:16,239 --> 00:38:18,080
Speaker 1: that can be kind of gendered in those environments, and

738
00:38:18,080 --> 00:38:20,480
Speaker 1: that like, who is it that gets that freedom? It's

739
00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:22,799
Speaker 1: usually white men and white men pretty much, you know,

740
00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:25,839
Speaker 1: run to look on valley, And so being invited into

741
00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:27,520
Speaker 1: that space as a woman or a person of color

742
00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:30,640
Speaker 1: can being incredibly tricky to navigate. Yeah, it can be

743
00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:34,120
Speaker 1: anxiety provoking. So what let's talk about what women, you know,

744
00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:37,880
Speaker 1: the average women at work can do in light of

745
00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:40,839
Speaker 1: you know, we're telling we're telling you some mixed messages here,

746
00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:44,440
Speaker 1: aren't We were saying, don't be afraid, let's normalize failure.

747
00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:48,399
Speaker 1: Let's let's lean into the discomfort of failing. Let's not

748
00:38:48,719 --> 00:38:52,239
Speaker 1: internalize our work mistakes. But at the same time, we're

749
00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:54,880
Speaker 1: operating in an environment that doesn't treat women's mistakes with

750
00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:58,480
Speaker 1: the same amount of empathy. And you know, understanding as

751
00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:03,000
Speaker 1: always is give into uh, non women, you know what

752
00:39:03,080 --> 00:39:04,759
Speaker 1: I mean? So all we really want is to be

753
00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:07,000
Speaker 1: seen as individuals, not be seen as, oh, she's making

754
00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:09,920
Speaker 1: a mistake. There goes another woman making a mistake on

755
00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:12,719
Speaker 1: behalf of her entire gender and that's being seen as

756
00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:15,680
Speaker 1: something indicative of my race or gender. Right, So what

757
00:39:15,719 --> 00:39:18,919
Speaker 1: can we women do in light of this tough situation. Well,

758
00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:22,640
Speaker 1: one thing is, um, don't obsess over your mistake. I

759
00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:24,720
Speaker 1: think that really goes back to this idea of guilt

760
00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:27,279
Speaker 1: versus shame. Right, if you make a mistake, it's okay.

761
00:39:27,360 --> 00:39:29,480
Speaker 1: It's natural to feel guilty, to feel bad about it.

762
00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:33,000
Speaker 1: You know, you shouldn't be thrilled with yourself, but you shouldn't,

763
00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:35,759
Speaker 1: you know, go over and over and over it in

764
00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:37,920
Speaker 1: your head, play it out for years and years. I mean,

765
00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:40,719
Speaker 1: some of the stories that are in UMS book are

766
00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:43,239
Speaker 1: mistakes that people made when they were young and that

767
00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:45,359
Speaker 1: they that stuck with them. They you know, they still

768
00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:47,719
Speaker 1: mull it over years and years and years. It's like

769
00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:49,759
Speaker 1: when you say the wrong thing at a party back

770
00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:55,040
Speaker 1: in and you're still replaying that cringeing conversation in which

771
00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:59,040
Speaker 1: I do setting again. The cringe is real. The cringe

772
00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:01,279
Speaker 1: is real. So don't know, don't obsess over it. At

773
00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:03,560
Speaker 1: a certain point, you know, you gotta let it go.

774
00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:06,000
Speaker 1: You gotta move on. And I think one of one

775
00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:11,919
Speaker 1: of uh Carol Dwex pieces of advice is it's really

776
00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:15,040
Speaker 1: about changing the voice in your head. It's hard to

777
00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:17,680
Speaker 1: silence the voice in your head. It's hard to say,

778
00:40:17,719 --> 00:40:20,319
Speaker 1: stop beating yourself up about this, you know, it's hard

779
00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:23,359
Speaker 1: to say, mute yourself. Mute your voice in your head,

780
00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:25,759
Speaker 1: because we all have the inner critic. Instead, talk back,

781
00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:28,600
Speaker 1: talk back to your inner critic. When your inner critic

782
00:40:28,680 --> 00:40:31,000
Speaker 1: is saying, Emily, you're the worst. What made you think

783
00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:35,040
Speaker 1: you were able to sing the national anthem without forgetting

784
00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:39,279
Speaker 1: all the words that your senior night volleyball? Did that

785
00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:41,879
Speaker 1: really happen? It's so really happened that I'm sweating about

786
00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:44,600
Speaker 1: it metic and I feel like a bad patriot. But

787
00:40:44,600 --> 00:40:46,719
Speaker 1: it really it was just stage right, And there's like

788
00:40:46,719 --> 00:40:49,040
Speaker 1: twenty people in the whole world who might know what

789
00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:51,560
Speaker 1: I'm talking about if they listen to But you know

790
00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:53,719
Speaker 1: how awkward that was, if you know, please right into

791
00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:55,480
Speaker 1: the show let us know. You know, No, I don't

792
00:40:55,480 --> 00:40:57,880
Speaker 1: want to relive it anymore, because we're not obsessing on

793
00:40:58,120 --> 00:41:02,040
Speaker 1: forgetting the words from national anthem anyway, which is why

794
00:41:02,040 --> 00:41:04,239
Speaker 1: I've had so much empathy for every artist who's ever

795
00:41:04,320 --> 00:41:05,839
Speaker 1: gone up there and kind of messed up the words.

796
00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:08,080
Speaker 1: Oh you're like, oh, give her a break. You're like.

797
00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:11,319
Speaker 1: It happens even to the most devoted patriots out there.

798
00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:14,840
Speaker 1: I love this country anyway. Uh. The moral of the

799
00:41:14,880 --> 00:41:18,600
Speaker 1: story here, I'm sweating, Okay. The moral of the story

800
00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:21,040
Speaker 1: here is to talk back to that voice and instead

801
00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:23,759
Speaker 1: of saying you're a bad singer or you're a bad patriot,

802
00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:26,920
Speaker 1: say you just didn't practice the words often enough. You

803
00:41:26,920 --> 00:41:28,880
Speaker 1: didn't have the words in front of you. Tell yourself

804
00:41:28,920 --> 00:41:32,719
Speaker 1: a story that explains what you could have done differently.

805
00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:35,600
Speaker 1: What you could have done differently is learning. That's what

806
00:41:35,719 --> 00:41:39,080
Speaker 1: that's the process of learning. Identifying what led to the

807
00:41:39,120 --> 00:41:43,640
Speaker 1: mistake is where you actually glean some knowledge through the mistake.

808
00:41:43,719 --> 00:41:46,040
Speaker 1: Instead of I'm a bad person, I'm a bad this,

809
00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:47,919
Speaker 1: I I'm just bad at math, or I'm just bad

810
00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:50,560
Speaker 1: at writing or whatever it might be, identify what you

811
00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:52,440
Speaker 1: could do differently next time. And that is what I

812
00:41:52,520 --> 00:41:55,760
Speaker 1: learned from organizing through the form of what you probably

813
00:41:55,760 --> 00:42:01,839
Speaker 1: know pluses and deltas, or at least tell us about that.

814
00:42:02,120 --> 00:42:04,200
Speaker 1: So basically, at the end of a training, you know

815
00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:06,239
Speaker 1: you The way that we would do it in in

816
00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:08,640
Speaker 1: the organizing context is you get a big piece of

817
00:42:08,640 --> 00:42:12,000
Speaker 1: butcher paper and you lift up roses or pluses, these

818
00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:14,359
Speaker 1: are things that went great, and then you lift up

819
00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:17,200
Speaker 1: thorns or deltas, things that could have been better, could

820
00:42:17,239 --> 00:42:19,120
Speaker 1: have been you know, things that were not so great.

821
00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:23,040
Speaker 1: And really that has been a really helpful tool in

822
00:42:23,120 --> 00:42:26,240
Speaker 1: my my political work because there when you have a training,

823
00:42:26,480 --> 00:42:28,279
Speaker 1: things are gonna go badly, things are going to be

824
00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:30,240
Speaker 1: not be great any kind of event that you're putting together.

825
00:42:30,520 --> 00:42:33,040
Speaker 1: And honestly, sometimes sometimes you know, I used to live

826
00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:35,600
Speaker 1: in fear for the roses and delta, the plusses, and

827
00:42:35,960 --> 00:42:38,880
Speaker 1: I'm already messing enough that the roses and thorns, pluses

828
00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:40,480
Speaker 1: and delta is part of a training. I used to

829
00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:43,080
Speaker 1: like live in fear of this, but by the end

830
00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:45,200
Speaker 1: I would say like, yeah, that did happen, or yeah

831
00:42:45,239 --> 00:42:47,279
Speaker 1: that would have been great, or yeah I am bad

832
00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:49,759
Speaker 1: at this aspect of training and could get better at it.

833
00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:53,359
Speaker 1: You know. Well, what I love about the word delta too,

834
00:42:53,520 --> 00:42:55,680
Speaker 1: or the process of pluses and deltas, is that a

835
00:42:55,880 --> 00:42:59,440
Speaker 1: it's communal. You're not doing this alone, You're doing in community.

836
00:42:59,480 --> 00:43:01,839
Speaker 1: So there's alway a conversation. I think when we bring

837
00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:05,440
Speaker 1: solitude or silence to our mistakes, we bring shame to them.

838
00:43:05,719 --> 00:43:08,239
Speaker 1: So when we're actually able to have an audible, out

839
00:43:08,320 --> 00:43:12,400
Speaker 1: loud conversation about mistakes. It feels relieving and and comforting.

840
00:43:12,840 --> 00:43:15,080
Speaker 1: So there's lots of uses of of Delta's but it

841
00:43:15,160 --> 00:43:19,120
Speaker 1: felt little triangle, which in mathematics stands for variation or variable.

842
00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:22,399
Speaker 1: And so what we're actually talking about is change. What

843
00:43:22,440 --> 00:43:26,440
Speaker 1: would we change next time? What might we do differently?

844
00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:29,919
Speaker 1: Not what sucked and not what did you fail at?

845
00:43:29,960 --> 00:43:32,799
Speaker 1: And not what are you terrible at? But it's next time,

846
00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:36,759
Speaker 1: what might we try differently? And because it's communal, because

847
00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:40,239
Speaker 1: it's framed in that way, it feels like there's some

848
00:43:40,400 --> 00:43:44,360
Speaker 1: actionable learning there. Yeah, I'll never forget doing a training where,

849
00:43:44,440 --> 00:43:46,600
Speaker 1: by no fault with my own the training space air

850
00:43:46,600 --> 00:43:48,520
Speaker 1: conditioner wasn't working. And this was in d C in

851
00:43:48,520 --> 00:43:50,839
Speaker 1: the middle of July, so it was very hot and

852
00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:52,919
Speaker 1: we had to move. We had one day in there,

853
00:43:52,920 --> 00:43:54,239
Speaker 1: and you know, we're in this room all day and

854
00:43:54,239 --> 00:43:56,839
Speaker 1: it's hot and it's muggy, and eventually like someone passed out.

855
00:43:56,880 --> 00:43:58,799
Speaker 1: It was really bad. I don't know. We were doing

856
00:43:58,800 --> 00:44:01,480
Speaker 1: plus pluses and Delta's one of the ductas was it

857
00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:06,080
Speaker 1: would be nice to not have participants passing out and

858
00:44:06,120 --> 00:44:07,600
Speaker 1: I was like, yeah, I would change that next time,

859
00:44:07,680 --> 00:44:09,799
Speaker 1: I would change that. We'll see what you're saying if

860
00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:12,400
Speaker 1: you're talking about an outcome, right, so this was a

861
00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:16,000
Speaker 1: bad outcome, but really I would you know, I hope

862
00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:18,040
Speaker 1: someone pushed you further to be like, well, what might

863
00:44:18,080 --> 00:44:20,560
Speaker 1: we do differently to make sure no one passes out?

864
00:44:20,960 --> 00:44:23,960
Speaker 1: Because focusing on the bad outcome. While so natural of

865
00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:27,239
Speaker 1: our brands to say here's what the bad outcome was,

866
00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:28,960
Speaker 1: we really have to think about what did we how

867
00:44:28,960 --> 00:44:32,200
Speaker 1: did we what effort did we not put in enough? Right?

868
00:44:32,440 --> 00:44:34,800
Speaker 1: You know what, I'm I'm not being very articulate. I

869
00:44:34,880 --> 00:44:37,680
Speaker 1: really like stuck in my failure brain today apparently, But

870
00:44:37,800 --> 00:44:39,840
Speaker 1: I'm just trying to your back on the volleyball field

871
00:44:40,040 --> 00:44:47,560
Speaker 1: in like I'm just trying to live the podcast. Yeah.

872
00:44:47,600 --> 00:44:49,759
Speaker 1: Another way is I think I said this before. Just

873
00:44:49,840 --> 00:44:52,520
Speaker 1: know that you're not your mistake, right, don't internalize it.

874
00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:56,080
Speaker 1: You you know, it's easy to think, oh, I'm I'm

875
00:44:56,120 --> 00:44:57,600
Speaker 1: not the person I thought I was, or I'm not

876
00:44:57,600 --> 00:44:59,640
Speaker 1: good at this, not good at that. You don't you

877
00:44:59,680 --> 00:45:02,960
Speaker 1: know again, tell yourself that story that you maybe you

878
00:45:02,960 --> 00:45:04,520
Speaker 1: are good at math, or you have the potential to

879
00:45:04,520 --> 00:45:06,160
Speaker 1: be good at math. You just didn't study for that

880
00:45:06,200 --> 00:45:09,520
Speaker 1: one test or whatever, And honestly, I almost want to

881
00:45:09,680 --> 00:45:13,720
Speaker 1: sign Mindset by Carol Dwyke has required reading for every

882
00:45:13,760 --> 00:45:17,960
Speaker 1: like greater out there or every definitely every educator out there.

883
00:45:18,000 --> 00:45:22,239
Speaker 1: Because if you're in a position also as someone's supervisor

884
00:45:22,360 --> 00:45:26,640
Speaker 1: or parent or sister or whatever who's messing up, when

885
00:45:26,640 --> 00:45:31,040
Speaker 1: you witness someone else's mistake, you can tell them one

886
00:45:31,040 --> 00:45:34,920
Speaker 1: of two stories. You know, Michael little Michael Jordan's maybe

887
00:45:34,920 --> 00:45:38,320
Speaker 1: basketball's not your sport, you know, as his high school

888
00:45:38,320 --> 00:45:40,279
Speaker 1: coach must have probably thought, and when he got cut

889
00:45:40,320 --> 00:45:41,959
Speaker 1: from the team, you might want to just say, maybe

890
00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:44,040
Speaker 1: you should focus on something different because this is painful

891
00:45:44,080 --> 00:45:45,480
Speaker 1: and scary and I don't want to talk about it,

892
00:45:45,480 --> 00:45:47,839
Speaker 1: and failure brings up failure, like failure in you brings

893
00:45:47,880 --> 00:45:50,440
Speaker 1: up failure in me, and I can't handle it. Or

894
00:45:50,880 --> 00:45:53,719
Speaker 1: you might say, well, you know, do you want to continue?

895
00:45:53,800 --> 00:45:56,279
Speaker 1: What might you do differently next time? Like how did

896
00:45:56,360 --> 00:45:58,640
Speaker 1: you prayer? Do you want to talk about this? Like

897
00:45:58,680 --> 00:46:01,000
Speaker 1: do you want to process this? Because I'm here if

898
00:46:01,040 --> 00:46:04,240
Speaker 1: you want to talk about it, and you know, pointing

899
00:46:04,280 --> 00:46:08,200
Speaker 1: to pass successes is another good strategy for dealing with

900
00:46:08,239 --> 00:46:10,919
Speaker 1: someone else's mistake, if they're if they're screwing up, whether

901
00:46:10,960 --> 00:46:13,880
Speaker 1: this is you or someone that works for you, perhaps

902
00:46:14,200 --> 00:46:15,880
Speaker 1: you know, pointing to a time when they were successful

903
00:46:15,920 --> 00:46:20,120
Speaker 1: in the past, and then leaning in with curiosity to discuss,

904
00:46:20,560 --> 00:46:24,480
Speaker 1: you know, what led to this mistake, not why are

905
00:46:24,480 --> 00:46:26,440
Speaker 1: you such an idiot? Yeah, and I think to go

906
00:46:26,520 --> 00:46:29,560
Speaker 1: back to my my example of my my, you know,

907
00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:32,879
Speaker 1: social media mess up at in a media company. That's

908
00:46:32,920 --> 00:46:37,440
Speaker 1: what I thought was so glaringly wrong in that situation.

909
00:46:37,760 --> 00:46:40,600
Speaker 1: So we you know, we did happen. I mean I

910
00:46:40,760 --> 00:46:43,240
Speaker 1: I tweeted something that was meant from terrible. What happened

911
00:46:43,239 --> 00:46:45,000
Speaker 1: after the mistake? Oh, I mean I got I got

912
00:46:45,080 --> 00:46:47,120
Speaker 1: chewed out by my boss um and she made me

913
00:46:47,160 --> 00:46:50,320
Speaker 1: feel I mean, no, no, she probably not listening to this.

914
00:46:50,320 --> 00:46:52,279
Speaker 1: This wasn't even that long ago, but she I got

915
00:46:52,280 --> 00:46:55,080
Speaker 1: shooed out by my boss and there was no I

916
00:46:55,080 --> 00:46:58,080
Speaker 1: mean I felt horrible about it. I felt terrible, and

917
00:46:58,320 --> 00:47:00,759
Speaker 1: I there was no sense of the fact that it

918
00:47:00,840 --> 00:47:03,640
Speaker 1: wasn't just my mess up, that there were there should

919
00:47:03,640 --> 00:47:06,160
Speaker 1: have been fail safe in place, and there was no

920
00:47:06,200 --> 00:47:08,160
Speaker 1: sense of the fact that like, yeah, I'm one person,

921
00:47:08,560 --> 00:47:10,959
Speaker 1: I've been working, I've been on for a very long time.

922
00:47:11,080 --> 00:47:13,840
Speaker 1: I'm doing this at one am I have. I'm not

923
00:47:13,920 --> 00:47:16,800
Speaker 1: being supported or set up to do my best work.

924
00:47:17,080 --> 00:47:19,200
Speaker 1: Not that it was at my fault, because it totally was,

925
00:47:19,280 --> 00:47:21,960
Speaker 1: but there was no It just seemed like we treated

926
00:47:21,960 --> 00:47:24,279
Speaker 1: it like this anomaly that I did, and that it

927
00:47:24,360 --> 00:47:26,080
Speaker 1: meant like, oh, you're not cut out to work in

928
00:47:26,120 --> 00:47:28,680
Speaker 1: news or media. And I think about that moment a

929
00:47:28,719 --> 00:47:31,280
Speaker 1: lot because I think that if if it had been

930
00:47:31,320 --> 00:47:34,440
Speaker 1: you know, working in a social media environment, mistakes are

931
00:47:34,440 --> 00:47:36,160
Speaker 1: going to happen. Here's what we do when they when

932
00:47:36,160 --> 00:47:38,880
Speaker 1: they happen, that would have been better. Because all my

933
00:47:38,920 --> 00:47:40,800
Speaker 1: teammates were like, oh, yeah, the same thing happened to me.

934
00:47:40,880 --> 00:47:42,640
Speaker 1: I did the same thing. And that was the first

935
00:47:42,640 --> 00:47:44,960
Speaker 1: time I was like, Oh, everyone's messing up at this job.

936
00:47:45,000 --> 00:47:47,440
Speaker 1: Everyone has made a mistake at this job. And before

937
00:47:47,560 --> 00:47:50,000
Speaker 1: that conversation, I was like, Oh, it just happened to me.

938
00:47:50,120 --> 00:47:51,880
Speaker 1: I was I was a person that was messed up.

939
00:47:52,040 --> 00:47:54,480
Speaker 1: I you know, I was broken or not cut out

940
00:47:54,560 --> 00:47:57,879
Speaker 1: or this and that. And that's such a good reminder.

941
00:47:58,560 --> 00:48:00,640
Speaker 1: When you are dealing with someone else who's made a mistake,

942
00:48:00,680 --> 00:48:02,560
Speaker 1: one of the ways you can make them feel better

943
00:48:02,640 --> 00:48:04,360
Speaker 1: is to talk about your the mistakes you've made in

944
00:48:04,360 --> 00:48:07,000
Speaker 1: the past and how you've overcome them. You can actually say, listen,

945
00:48:07,480 --> 00:48:10,279
Speaker 1: this happens. I just did this a year ago and

946
00:48:10,320 --> 00:48:12,000
Speaker 1: it was the worst feeling in the world. You're probably

947
00:48:12,000 --> 00:48:14,600
Speaker 1: feeling terrible right now, and I want you to know

948
00:48:14,800 --> 00:48:16,920
Speaker 1: this is not you know, this is We're all human.

949
00:48:17,040 --> 00:48:19,239
Speaker 1: We all make mistakes, and I think the fact that

950
00:48:19,280 --> 00:48:21,320
Speaker 1: we've made this mistake a few times now indicates that

951
00:48:21,360 --> 00:48:23,200
Speaker 1: we got to do to do some things differently. So

952
00:48:23,239 --> 00:48:25,200
Speaker 1: let's focus on what we can do differently. That's so

953
00:48:25,320 --> 00:48:28,719
Speaker 1: that's you dis nailed it, because it's about making it

954
00:48:28,760 --> 00:48:31,160
Speaker 1: not about the individual and saying like, well, clearly, this

955
00:48:31,200 --> 00:48:34,080
Speaker 1: is something that happens, and how can we learn from

956
00:48:34,120 --> 00:48:35,879
Speaker 1: this that this keeps happening, and not being like, oh,

957
00:48:35,920 --> 00:48:37,839
Speaker 1: what's wrong with you that you did this? And making

958
00:48:37,840 --> 00:48:40,720
Speaker 1: it so internal. The last thing I want to say

959
00:48:41,000 --> 00:48:44,560
Speaker 1: on this podcast, however, And I know we're like flipping

960
00:48:44,560 --> 00:48:47,400
Speaker 1: back and forth here and in advice, but I I

961
00:48:47,520 --> 00:48:50,920
Speaker 1: don't wanna. I don't want anyone to be confused about

962
00:48:51,600 --> 00:48:56,839
Speaker 1: owning your mistakes in in a place of owning your achievement.

963
00:48:57,600 --> 00:49:00,160
Speaker 1: I don't think we should judge women who own their

964
00:49:00,160 --> 00:49:03,200
Speaker 1: achievements vocally and out loud. And I don't think we

965
00:49:03,239 --> 00:49:07,560
Speaker 1: should downplay our our achievements and only talk about our

966
00:49:07,600 --> 00:49:10,680
Speaker 1: mistakes in a self deprecating way. I think, yes, it's

967
00:49:10,680 --> 00:49:12,879
Speaker 1: okay to be human. We should be acknowledged that we're

968
00:49:12,880 --> 00:49:15,240
Speaker 1: all human and we make mistakes. But as women especially

969
00:49:15,320 --> 00:49:20,000
Speaker 1: we should We shouldn't judge each other or feel like

970
00:49:20,080 --> 00:49:23,719
Speaker 1: we can't express when we're killing it as well. Like

971
00:49:23,800 --> 00:49:26,080
Speaker 1: I don't want your mistakes on your resume, ladies, I

972
00:49:26,120 --> 00:49:28,480
Speaker 1: think we all know that totally, and I think it's

973
00:49:28,520 --> 00:49:30,560
Speaker 1: for me. I think it's two sides of the same coin.

974
00:49:30,680 --> 00:49:33,080
Speaker 1: Like you should be if a woman is talking about

975
00:49:33,360 --> 00:49:35,600
Speaker 1: a failure publicly, you should not be like, oh, well,

976
00:49:35,640 --> 00:49:39,360
Speaker 1: women are terrible at this. And if a woman is

977
00:49:39,360 --> 00:49:42,000
Speaker 1: talking about her successes, you shouldn't be like, oh well, women,

978
00:49:42,360 --> 00:49:44,960
Speaker 1: this woman is full of herself, right. I think it's

979
00:49:45,239 --> 00:49:48,279
Speaker 1: as women and as feminists, I think it's always about

980
00:49:48,320 --> 00:49:51,040
Speaker 1: being able to give, to be given that space to

981
00:49:51,080 --> 00:49:54,120
Speaker 1: be full authentic or full authentic selves, and whether that

982
00:49:54,160 --> 00:49:56,960
Speaker 1: means killing it or whether that means crying in the bathroom,

983
00:49:57,280 --> 00:50:01,360
Speaker 1: we are full, multifaceted people being given the space to

984
00:50:01,400 --> 00:50:04,160
Speaker 1: be those people, human beings and human beings. I mean

985
00:50:04,239 --> 00:50:06,279
Speaker 1: it goes without saying, but obviously we want to give

986
00:50:06,320 --> 00:50:11,160
Speaker 1: people of all genders that freedom because men can't miss

987
00:50:11,200 --> 00:50:13,720
Speaker 1: maybe things, but but it's true, like the whole spectrum

988
00:50:13,719 --> 00:50:16,200
Speaker 1: of gender, we all just want to be seen as

989
00:50:16,280 --> 00:50:21,239
Speaker 1: human beings who are fallible and and still worthy. Completely.

990
00:50:21,560 --> 00:50:24,880
Speaker 1: I love it, And for lots of famous failures and

991
00:50:25,040 --> 00:50:30,080
Speaker 1: women's brilliant stories. Who really provides some inspiring insights to

992
00:50:30,680 --> 00:50:34,680
Speaker 1: I'm thinking about Vera Wang, how she became a successful,

993
00:50:34,800 --> 00:50:39,399
Speaker 1: insanely successful designer after being a figure skater who failed

994
00:50:39,440 --> 00:50:43,040
Speaker 1: to make it to the Olympics. Yeah, oh yeah, there's

995
00:50:43,080 --> 00:50:47,400
Speaker 1: some really fascinating like the j. K. Rowling story, Arianna Huffington's.

996
00:50:47,800 --> 00:50:52,239
Speaker 1: You look into these women's backgrounds and you'll realize, and

997
00:50:52,480 --> 00:50:55,280
Speaker 1: Jessica Baccall's book is a great place to get started.

998
00:50:55,520 --> 00:50:58,120
Speaker 1: You'll realize rather quickly that the overnight success story that

999
00:50:58,160 --> 00:51:01,879
Speaker 1: America seems to be so obsessed with is far from,

1000
00:51:01,880 --> 00:51:04,719
Speaker 1: in my opinion, the most worthwhile story to read like

1001
00:51:05,000 --> 00:51:08,680
Speaker 1: that narrative of triumphing in the face of challenge is

1002
00:51:08,800 --> 00:51:14,680
Speaker 1: much more interesting to me and motivating. So yeah, I

1003
00:51:14,719 --> 00:51:18,400
Speaker 1: think we beat failure. I think we kicked it and

1004
00:51:18,520 --> 00:51:22,040
Speaker 1: I done hopefully, listeners, you tell us what do you think?

1005
00:51:22,080 --> 00:51:24,360
Speaker 1: I'm sure you'll help us point out our failures on occasion.

1006
00:51:24,600 --> 00:51:27,320
Speaker 1: I have to tell you starting being a podcast co

1007
00:51:27,400 --> 00:51:29,840
Speaker 1: host has been a very humbling Oh, if you want to,

1008
00:51:29,880 --> 00:51:34,280
Speaker 1: if you want people to help you lovingly discover places

1009
00:51:34,320 --> 00:51:38,600
Speaker 1: where you need health and improvement, become a podcaster and

1010
00:51:38,640 --> 00:51:42,000
Speaker 1: so we really I mean, I clearly love talking failures.

1011
00:51:42,000 --> 00:51:44,080
Speaker 1: So you want to hear about your your failures. You can,

1012
00:51:44,239 --> 00:51:45,759
Speaker 1: you know, send us an email or tell us about

1013
00:51:45,760 --> 00:51:47,880
Speaker 1: a time where things didn't go well or how you

1014
00:51:47,920 --> 00:51:50,280
Speaker 1: handled it when someone on your team that you manage failed.

1015
00:51:50,360 --> 00:51:52,279
Speaker 1: You know, I want to hear about all of your

1016
00:51:52,320 --> 00:51:55,160
Speaker 1: relationships to failure. What does that relationship look like for you?

1017
00:51:55,400 --> 00:51:57,440
Speaker 1: So you can reach out to us on Instagram if

1018
00:51:57,480 --> 00:52:00,239
Speaker 1: you want to take a picture of maybe a you're

1019
00:52:00,239 --> 00:52:03,640
Speaker 1: a baker and your cake turned out crappy? I don't know. Yeah,

1020
00:52:04,080 --> 00:52:06,359
Speaker 1: instead of the highlight reel, let's put some low lights. Yeah,

1021
00:52:06,400 --> 00:52:08,520
Speaker 1: Blooper is real. I like it. So you can hit

1022
00:52:08,600 --> 00:52:10,759
Speaker 1: us up on Instagram at stuff mom never told you.

1023
00:52:10,760 --> 00:52:13,440
Speaker 1: You can hit us up on Twitter at mom Stuff podcast,

1024
00:52:13,520 --> 00:52:15,839
Speaker 1: or send us a good old fashion email at mom

1025
00:52:15,960 --> 00:52:28,320
Speaker 1: Stuff at how stuff works dot com