1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:04,200 Speaker 1: Oh, fellow Ridiculous Historians, We're back. We couldn't leave you 2 00:00:04,240 --> 00:00:08,039 Speaker 1: without a dope podcast. The step two this is step two, 3 00:00:08,080 --> 00:00:08,639 Speaker 1: Step two. 4 00:00:09,360 --> 00:00:10,360 Speaker 2: This is uh. 5 00:00:10,600 --> 00:00:13,920 Speaker 1: This is the second part of our exploration of the 6 00:00:14,080 --> 00:00:18,159 Speaker 1: very weird life of George Washington. UH. And Nola was 7 00:00:18,200 --> 00:00:19,000 Speaker 1: remembering this. 8 00:00:19,400 --> 00:00:19,520 Speaker 3: Uh. 9 00:00:19,920 --> 00:00:24,400 Speaker 1: Our pal, none other than Casey Pegram is on here 10 00:00:25,040 --> 00:00:28,160 Speaker 1: with with our returning friend of the show, Christopher Hasiotis, 11 00:00:28,520 --> 00:00:32,000 Speaker 1: and I think, dude, I think this is one of 12 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:37,480 Speaker 1: the ones where after we recorded this, we both went 13 00:00:37,520 --> 00:00:40,280 Speaker 1: to Casey and like desperately sought his validation. 14 00:00:40,800 --> 00:00:44,480 Speaker 4: Oh love that guy. 15 00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:53,880 Speaker 1: We're talking about George Washington's weird hair routine. We're all O, 16 00:00:54,040 --> 00:00:56,680 Speaker 1: it has to come up, I has to we I 17 00:00:57,000 --> 00:01:01,080 Speaker 1: think we also talk about the fact that there was, 18 00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:03,240 Speaker 1: as you said our intro to part one, there was 19 00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:06,920 Speaker 1: a real man behind the myth here, and he had 20 00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:10,520 Speaker 1: a lot of medical issues that plagued him throughout his 21 00:01:10,520 --> 00:01:14,160 Speaker 1: life that were frankly bizarre, like bizzarre. 22 00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:16,440 Speaker 3: Why don't we hear all about it? Let's roll the tape. 23 00:01:19,600 --> 00:01:47,880 Speaker 1: Ridiculous Histories a production of iHeartRadio. Don't call it a comeback, 24 00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:50,480 Speaker 1: Friends and Neighbors, or actually, go ahead, and please do so, 25 00:01:50,600 --> 00:01:54,200 Speaker 1: because this is part two of our continuing series on 26 00:01:54,280 --> 00:01:57,960 Speaker 1: weird George Washington Facts. Welcome to the show. My name 27 00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:01,600 Speaker 1: is Ben, my name is Noel, joined with our super 28 00:02:01,640 --> 00:02:07,360 Speaker 1: producer Casey Pegram and our returning a special guest. It's 29 00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:10,079 Speaker 1: an immense privilege to have you on the show anytime. 30 00:02:10,440 --> 00:02:13,280 Speaker 4: Christopher hassiotis what a delight to be here. Thank you, 31 00:02:13,440 --> 00:02:15,919 Speaker 4: and Ben, you've got your groove back, my friend. You're glowing, 32 00:02:15,919 --> 00:02:18,360 Speaker 4: You're absolutely glowing. Thank you, thank you, thank you. 33 00:02:18,440 --> 00:02:22,639 Speaker 1: It's all the hemp, very versatile crop, very versatile crop. 34 00:02:22,760 --> 00:02:25,360 Speaker 2: Yes. Is that shirt you're wearing woven from hemp? 35 00:02:25,639 --> 00:02:29,960 Speaker 1: Yes, yes it is, And as are my shoes and my. 36 00:02:32,160 --> 00:02:35,040 Speaker 2: Coat undergarments. Is that what you're gonna say, undergarments? 37 00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:35,600 Speaker 1: Yeah? 38 00:02:35,840 --> 00:02:38,359 Speaker 2: Yeah, traded in the Mythral. I did I. 39 00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:42,519 Speaker 1: Finally upgraded from mithral to Hemp. So this is, as 40 00:02:42,520 --> 00:02:46,240 Speaker 1: we mentioned, part two of a two part series. If 41 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:48,840 Speaker 1: you have not checked out part one of our George 42 00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:52,720 Speaker 1: Washington Facts, it's okay, don't stress out. 43 00:02:52,840 --> 00:02:56,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, just hit pause, you know, and shake your fists 44 00:02:56,200 --> 00:03:00,200 Speaker 2: at the podcast gods that list the shows in first 45 00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:02,840 Speaker 2: chronological order, and just scroll back and listen to the 46 00:03:02,960 --> 00:03:04,200 Speaker 2: show from two days ago. 47 00:03:04,680 --> 00:03:06,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's such a bummer when they listen them in 48 00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:07,440 Speaker 1: that reverse order. 49 00:03:07,639 --> 00:03:11,040 Speaker 2: You know, I believe that the iHeartRadio app you can 50 00:03:11,160 --> 00:03:13,239 Speaker 2: swap things around and point them in the other direction 51 00:03:13,280 --> 00:03:15,720 Speaker 2: and start from start from earlier, and go tours later. 52 00:03:15,880 --> 00:03:17,840 Speaker 2: That's crazy talk. Who would ever do that? 53 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:19,320 Speaker 1: What a time to be alive. 54 00:03:19,480 --> 00:03:21,520 Speaker 2: The industry is a morphing thing. 55 00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:25,200 Speaker 1: So we set up the basic gist of George Washington's 56 00:03:25,200 --> 00:03:29,680 Speaker 1: life in our earlier episode, and now, what do you say, gentlemen, 57 00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:32,680 Speaker 1: should we dive straight into the weird stuff? 58 00:03:32,840 --> 00:03:34,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a whole bunch of strangeness to get into. 59 00:03:35,200 --> 00:03:37,360 Speaker 3: I say, let's dive down that Washington hole. 60 00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:41,960 Speaker 5: Was it the muddy hole? The muddy hole, the muddy hole, 61 00:03:42,640 --> 00:03:45,440 Speaker 5: Washington's money. Let's dive down Washington's muddy Hole. 62 00:03:45,720 --> 00:03:49,360 Speaker 2: It sounds like the worst ride at the presidential theme 63 00:03:49,360 --> 00:03:50,160 Speaker 2: park of my dreams. 64 00:03:50,200 --> 00:03:52,160 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, that's the one where there's never a line. 65 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:56,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, Lincoln's spooky log Cabin. I think, man if I 66 00:03:56,720 --> 00:03:59,200 Speaker 2: had a lot of extra time, we could just come 67 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:02,480 Speaker 2: up with the rides and for every single president that's 68 00:04:02,480 --> 00:04:03,080 Speaker 2: out there. 69 00:04:02,960 --> 00:04:07,280 Speaker 4: Weird glitching robot, Lincoln's spewing sparks. 70 00:04:07,520 --> 00:04:08,360 Speaker 1: In the Ford theater. 71 00:04:08,880 --> 00:04:12,800 Speaker 2: The taft bathtub you've got to escape taft tub, taft tub. 72 00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:15,040 Speaker 4: That's full of old beans. 73 00:04:14,200 --> 00:04:17,400 Speaker 1: Full of old beings. Yeah, and then we get we 74 00:04:17,480 --> 00:04:20,400 Speaker 1: get weird because we would have the most fun. I 75 00:04:20,440 --> 00:04:23,000 Speaker 1: think with more obscure presidents like Pierce. 76 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:25,279 Speaker 2: Do you think he's the most obscure? 77 00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:28,560 Speaker 1: Uh? He You know that's a matter of personal opinion, 78 00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:28,920 Speaker 1: isn't it. 79 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:31,880 Speaker 2: That's why I'm asking you maybe personally. 80 00:04:32,120 --> 00:04:33,680 Speaker 1: Oh, you're asking me personally. 81 00:04:33,760 --> 00:04:35,800 Speaker 2: We're here, just you and me, and uh, well, I 82 00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:39,240 Speaker 2: guess no one in Casey and millions and millions of listeners. 83 00:04:39,279 --> 00:04:40,760 Speaker 3: But yeah, I don't know. 84 00:04:40,920 --> 00:04:45,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, who is the most obscure president? I have great 85 00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:48,920 Speaker 1: fascination with those lists that come out every so often 86 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:53,640 Speaker 1: of ranking presidents from best to worst. And they usually 87 00:04:53,760 --> 00:04:56,880 Speaker 1: don't do every single president. They usually do maybe the 88 00:04:56,920 --> 00:04:59,839 Speaker 1: top five best ones and the bottom five worst ones. 89 00:05:00,640 --> 00:05:04,440 Speaker 1: And I gotta say the bottom five are usually the 90 00:05:04,480 --> 00:05:05,560 Speaker 1: same couple of dudes. 91 00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:07,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, you've got the obscure ones. You've got your peer 92 00:05:07,839 --> 00:05:11,440 Speaker 2: cre Millard Fillmore. You know William McKinley, who was very 93 00:05:11,440 --> 00:05:13,760 Speaker 2: popular at the time but just kind of was forgotten, 94 00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:16,000 Speaker 2: even though he was killed and was involved in a 95 00:05:16,040 --> 00:05:17,920 Speaker 2: lot of different things. So one who's constantly at the 96 00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:19,800 Speaker 2: bottom of the list is Andrew Johnson. He's the one 97 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:23,200 Speaker 2: who kind of after Lincoln's asassination, he took over, but 98 00:05:23,320 --> 00:05:26,400 Speaker 2: he didn't manage the situation well. He let the country fester. 99 00:05:27,279 --> 00:05:29,839 Speaker 2: Things were not handled well. Reconstruction was not handled in 100 00:05:29,839 --> 00:05:33,360 Speaker 2: a way that maybe looked towards future generations. But I 101 00:05:33,440 --> 00:05:35,760 Speaker 2: think a lot of Americans would be hard pressed to 102 00:05:35,839 --> 00:05:38,320 Speaker 2: name Andrew Johnson. And I gotta tell you, I think 103 00:05:38,320 --> 00:05:39,839 Speaker 2: it's because his name's a little generic. 104 00:05:40,360 --> 00:05:43,760 Speaker 1: It is it is. It's a real uh, it's real 105 00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:44,640 Speaker 1: John Doe. 106 00:05:44,720 --> 00:05:46,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just not as memorable if he had some 107 00:05:46,960 --> 00:05:48,840 Speaker 2: sort of villainous name, or if he had some sort 108 00:05:48,880 --> 00:05:51,200 Speaker 2: of name. But you know, I mean, maybe it's better 109 00:05:51,200 --> 00:05:53,839 Speaker 2: that his name is a little more kind of milk 110 00:05:53,880 --> 00:05:56,919 Speaker 2: toast and banal, because honestly, that's how some of the 111 00:05:56,960 --> 00:05:59,599 Speaker 2: things that fall apart in politics do. So it's just 112 00:05:59,640 --> 00:06:03,760 Speaker 2: sort of through no specific malice, through no ill will, 113 00:06:03,880 --> 00:06:07,040 Speaker 2: it just sort of the banality of things kind of 114 00:06:07,920 --> 00:06:08,640 Speaker 2: things fall apart. 115 00:06:08,640 --> 00:06:10,520 Speaker 5: All right, So we're talking about bad presidents, where's our 116 00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:12,960 Speaker 5: boy g. Dub fallows, that's true. This is an episode 117 00:06:12,960 --> 00:06:13,800 Speaker 5: about George Washington. 118 00:06:13,800 --> 00:06:15,760 Speaker 1: Oh, I do want to point out, did you know 119 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:18,080 Speaker 1: that Andrew Johnson never went to school? 120 00:06:18,360 --> 00:06:20,640 Speaker 4: Is this sort of like I never learned to read 121 00:06:21,160 --> 00:06:23,960 Speaker 4: and I somehow managed to become president. Turns out I was. 122 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:24,680 Speaker 5: Bad at it. 123 00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:27,200 Speaker 1: I think the closest he got to a formal education 124 00:06:27,440 --> 00:06:31,640 Speaker 1: was when his wife taught him the basics like basic 125 00:06:31,720 --> 00:06:34,080 Speaker 1: mathematics and writing and so. 126 00:06:34,080 --> 00:06:37,080 Speaker 2: So he is one of the worst regarded presidents. So 127 00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:42,320 Speaker 2: maybe we can draw some conclusions that an intellectual curiosity 128 00:06:42,360 --> 00:06:44,839 Speaker 2: and education, these are things that are important for a president. 129 00:06:44,880 --> 00:06:48,440 Speaker 2: That the desire to learn, the admission that maybe other 130 00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:50,440 Speaker 2: people have more information than you and that you should 131 00:06:50,480 --> 00:06:52,800 Speaker 2: rely on them for information like that, that's a thing 132 00:06:52,839 --> 00:06:55,919 Speaker 2: a president should espouse to aspire to. 133 00:06:56,240 --> 00:06:56,560 Speaker 3: Yeah. 134 00:06:56,640 --> 00:06:58,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's solid and I don't think that's 135 00:06:58,960 --> 00:07:02,440 Speaker 1: a controversial point at all. We know that George Washington 136 00:07:02,839 --> 00:07:06,880 Speaker 1: had no problem learning from other people, and he took 137 00:07:06,920 --> 00:07:14,520 Speaker 1: advice pretty well. Segue, well done, expertly played, my friends. 138 00:07:14,600 --> 00:07:16,600 Speaker 1: I know that means you have to go first, especially 139 00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:17,920 Speaker 1: the part where you say. 140 00:07:18,440 --> 00:07:21,000 Speaker 4: Segwe I just see you guys know Ben's doing this 141 00:07:21,040 --> 00:07:23,440 Speaker 4: really sweet move where he's drawing his forefinger and thumb 142 00:07:23,520 --> 00:07:26,240 Speaker 4: together from them touching each other to a part in 143 00:07:26,320 --> 00:07:29,000 Speaker 4: the same cadence as he's saying, segwe it's a slow 144 00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:30,880 Speaker 4: parting of the Red Sea. 145 00:07:31,080 --> 00:07:33,600 Speaker 1: We actually made this a two part episode because we 146 00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:39,800 Speaker 1: wanted to spend some time really focusing on that hand gesture. 147 00:07:38,240 --> 00:07:39,760 Speaker 3: And really trying to up our vamp game. 148 00:07:39,800 --> 00:07:42,160 Speaker 4: And whenever Christopher Haciotis joins us in the tank here, 149 00:07:42,360 --> 00:07:43,160 Speaker 4: it's just magic. 150 00:07:43,400 --> 00:07:43,960 Speaker 3: Sparks fly. 151 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:47,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, but well that's true. Sparks did fly earlier. Noel, 152 00:07:47,920 --> 00:07:50,280 Speaker 2: you were electrocuted slightly by your headphones. 153 00:07:50,320 --> 00:07:50,760 Speaker 3: That's true. 154 00:07:50,880 --> 00:07:52,920 Speaker 2: He flew ready to make a saying that's my fault. 155 00:07:54,480 --> 00:07:56,559 Speaker 2: You do have a bit of an electric person saying 156 00:07:56,560 --> 00:07:57,720 Speaker 2: I'm not not saying that. 157 00:07:57,880 --> 00:08:00,120 Speaker 1: Is this is this part of us? Are you still 158 00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:02,480 Speaker 1: a little weirded out by the mic situation? Is this 159 00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:03,680 Speaker 1: part of a revenge scheme? 160 00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:06,200 Speaker 2: Now? What happens is I'm wearing wool socks and before 161 00:08:06,240 --> 00:08:07,920 Speaker 2: you guys came in here, I was just running back 162 00:08:07,920 --> 00:08:09,080 Speaker 2: and forwards on the rock. Yeah. 163 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:11,920 Speaker 1: Classic, we just call that. A hasiotis at the office. 164 00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:16,280 Speaker 1: You got zapped, so I will go first. This is 165 00:08:16,320 --> 00:08:19,680 Speaker 1: a little bit stranger. This is not a social activity 166 00:08:19,840 --> 00:08:24,040 Speaker 1: of George Washington, nor is it a political activity. This 167 00:08:24,320 --> 00:08:29,080 Speaker 1: is a medical fact about the guy. He was one 168 00:08:29,160 --> 00:08:33,199 Speaker 1: of the sickliest presidents in US history. Over the span 169 00:08:33,280 --> 00:08:39,680 Speaker 1: of his life, he suffered from diphtheria, tuberculosis, smallpox, dysentery, malaria, 170 00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:46,920 Speaker 1: kintsi which was tonslitis, carbuncle, pneumonia, and epigletitis. In fact, 171 00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:52,840 Speaker 1: he was so afflicted that people started speculating this may 172 00:08:52,880 --> 00:08:56,560 Speaker 1: have played a role in his infertility, because Washington did 173 00:08:56,640 --> 00:08:58,400 Speaker 1: not have issue, as they would say in the world 174 00:08:58,440 --> 00:09:02,280 Speaker 1: of aristocracy. It's well known that he had no children 175 00:09:02,400 --> 00:09:05,320 Speaker 1: of his own. In two thousand and seven, a man 176 00:09:05,400 --> 00:09:08,760 Speaker 1: named John k Amery at the University of Washington School 177 00:09:08,800 --> 00:09:13,160 Speaker 1: of Medicine proposed that it wasn't for lack of trying. Instead, 178 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:18,240 Speaker 1: he said, Washington may quite possibly have been infertile, and 179 00:09:18,520 --> 00:09:22,880 Speaker 1: Armory list a number of possible reasons for this infertility, 180 00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:26,839 Speaker 1: including an infection caused by tuberculosis. We have a quote 181 00:09:26,880 --> 00:09:31,000 Speaker 1: here wherein he says classic studies of soldiers with tuberculosis 182 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:35,160 Speaker 1: ploisi during World War Two demonstrated that two thirds developed 183 00:09:35,200 --> 00:09:39,000 Speaker 1: chronic organ tuberculosis within five years of their initial infection. 184 00:09:39,520 --> 00:09:43,320 Speaker 1: Infection of the epididymus or testes is seen in twenty 185 00:09:43,360 --> 00:09:47,160 Speaker 1: percent of these individuals and frequently results in infertility. 186 00:09:47,280 --> 00:09:50,080 Speaker 4: Dude, I just made a horrible mistake. I googled images 187 00:09:50,120 --> 00:09:51,200 Speaker 4: of carbuncles. 188 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:52,480 Speaker 3: Not good. 189 00:09:52,800 --> 00:09:55,599 Speaker 2: I'm guessing you are not seeing the image of the 190 00:09:55,880 --> 00:09:58,200 Speaker 2: cute little monster from the Final Fantasy Video Games? 191 00:09:58,280 --> 00:09:58,839 Speaker 3: Is that his name? 192 00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:00,600 Speaker 2: There was one called carbuncle? 193 00:10:01,880 --> 00:10:02,360 Speaker 3: Interesting? 194 00:10:02,440 --> 00:10:04,960 Speaker 2: Please please Ridiculous Historians correct me if I'm wrong. 195 00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:08,720 Speaker 4: These are disgusting, puss filled boils that cover one's body 196 00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:09,800 Speaker 4: when it afflicted with them. 197 00:10:09,920 --> 00:10:12,079 Speaker 1: It's not a carbohydrate loving uncle. 198 00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:14,760 Speaker 2: Nope, No, this is something we will not be posting 199 00:10:14,760 --> 00:10:16,240 Speaker 2: photos of on Ridiculous Histories. 200 00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:18,679 Speaker 1: Will that be too hasty? 201 00:10:19,280 --> 00:10:21,760 Speaker 2: I'm gonna I'm not even a regular host here, but 202 00:10:21,760 --> 00:10:23,880 Speaker 2: can I put this to a vote? Do I get 203 00:10:23,880 --> 00:10:27,160 Speaker 2: a full vote? I'm gonna take I'm taking a triple vote, 204 00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:30,960 Speaker 2: and I'm voting no photos of carbuncles on Ridiculous Historians 205 00:10:31,360 --> 00:10:32,200 Speaker 2: three against two. 206 00:10:32,240 --> 00:10:33,280 Speaker 3: I support that. 207 00:10:34,640 --> 00:10:36,280 Speaker 1: I see the gentleman to my left. 208 00:10:36,520 --> 00:10:38,439 Speaker 4: I you know, but I'm just saying, if you you know, 209 00:10:38,480 --> 00:10:40,240 Speaker 4: if you want to gross yourself out. 210 00:10:40,280 --> 00:10:41,440 Speaker 3: Just google carbuncles if. 211 00:10:41,320 --> 00:10:43,200 Speaker 1: You would have a really disturbing the more, you know, 212 00:10:43,280 --> 00:10:45,960 Speaker 1: a moment with the star flying over your head as 213 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:49,160 Speaker 1: you throw up a little bit in your mouth. Carbuncle. 214 00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:51,480 Speaker 2: Do you think the fact that George Washington didn't have 215 00:10:51,640 --> 00:10:54,640 Speaker 2: children kind of cemented his legacy? You know, that he 216 00:10:54,679 --> 00:10:59,000 Speaker 2: didn't have kids who could kind of tarnish the Washington. Yeah, 217 00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:00,920 Speaker 2: he was he was alone. You set things in motion 218 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:02,640 Speaker 2: and he stepped back, and that was it. 219 00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:06,240 Speaker 1: Quite possibly. I mean, that's that's a very good point, 220 00:11:06,400 --> 00:11:06,960 Speaker 1: I would say. 221 00:11:06,960 --> 00:11:08,679 Speaker 4: And it's so rare for people to do that at 222 00:11:08,679 --> 00:11:10,680 Speaker 4: that level, because I mean, they have all these idiot 223 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:12,920 Speaker 4: sons that beyond screw it all up for him. 224 00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:15,120 Speaker 1: You're not talking about Ben Stiller, are you. 225 00:11:15,520 --> 00:11:18,200 Speaker 4: I'm talking about that. One of the things that I 226 00:11:18,240 --> 00:11:20,240 Speaker 4: know you hate is nepotism. 227 00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:22,000 Speaker 2: The Adams Is. 228 00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:26,200 Speaker 1: The Bushes, the Roosevelts. 229 00:11:26,640 --> 00:11:29,520 Speaker 2: Look, well, those guys are like distant cousins. You can't 230 00:11:29,559 --> 00:11:31,840 Speaker 2: really I mean they came from a big, big family. 231 00:11:31,640 --> 00:11:34,960 Speaker 1: I know. But name recognition is still key now I will. 232 00:11:35,520 --> 00:11:38,040 Speaker 1: I totally see your point there, Christopher. Just like a 233 00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:44,920 Speaker 1: Justice Kennedy is not related to the former president Kennedy. True, right, 234 00:11:44,960 --> 00:11:48,760 Speaker 1: So there shouldn't be any law barring them from occupying 235 00:11:48,800 --> 00:11:50,760 Speaker 1: positions of power. You know what I mean. I'm just 236 00:11:50,760 --> 00:11:54,720 Speaker 1: saying that it's very strange to explain to someone from 237 00:11:54,760 --> 00:12:00,439 Speaker 1: another country or another culture that this is purportedly a maritimeocracy, 238 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:06,000 Speaker 1: and then say in the same breath that despite being 239 00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:09,880 Speaker 1: a meritocracy, through some amazing coincidence, the most qualified people 240 00:12:09,880 --> 00:12:12,320 Speaker 1: for a job happened to be related to each other 241 00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:18,280 Speaker 1: pretty often. But that just further underlines the point that 242 00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:21,520 Speaker 1: you make with Washington. Perhaps he was a safe figure 243 00:12:21,679 --> 00:12:31,080 Speaker 1: to mythologize. While he did not have children, one thing 244 00:12:31,160 --> 00:12:35,520 Speaker 1: that he did have was a non consensual workforce. 245 00:12:35,240 --> 00:12:37,439 Speaker 2: That's true. One of the things I wanted to talk 246 00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:41,960 Speaker 2: about was Washington's slaveholding. It's not really a happy topic 247 00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:46,040 Speaker 2: because we're talking about enslaved people, but it's a fact 248 00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:49,640 Speaker 2: of life at the time, especially for landowners, and Washington 249 00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:53,720 Speaker 2: had control over hundreds of slaves, more than three hundred people. 250 00:12:54,520 --> 00:12:57,880 Speaker 2: Washington gets a lot of credit for quote unquote freeing 251 00:12:57,880 --> 00:13:01,000 Speaker 2: his slaves in his will. That's one thing that people 252 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:04,680 Speaker 2: who defend the practice of enslaving others when it comes 253 00:13:04,679 --> 00:13:08,040 Speaker 2: to Washington, who is rightly revered as one of the 254 00:13:08,040 --> 00:13:10,520 Speaker 2: fathers of our country and who put a lot of 255 00:13:10,520 --> 00:13:13,120 Speaker 2: great systems in motion, but that doesn't change the fact 256 00:13:13,160 --> 00:13:17,320 Speaker 2: that he ran this giant plantation, and a plantation of 257 00:13:17,360 --> 00:13:20,480 Speaker 2: that size in what's sort of the South at the 258 00:13:20,520 --> 00:13:26,600 Speaker 2: time was run essentially on the free labor of enslaved Africans, 259 00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:30,160 Speaker 2: and at the time of his death, Washington owned more 260 00:13:30,160 --> 00:13:34,920 Speaker 2: than three hundred slaves. He inherited his first slave at eleven, 261 00:13:34,920 --> 00:13:38,280 Speaker 2: when his father passed away. So you had this young man, 262 00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:42,120 Speaker 2: George Washington, who was born into a life of maintaining 263 00:13:42,160 --> 00:13:45,560 Speaker 2: control over other human beings. When he passed in seventeen 264 00:13:45,640 --> 00:13:48,360 Speaker 2: ninety nine, he had one hundred and twenty three slaves 265 00:13:48,559 --> 00:13:51,439 Speaker 2: who were legally his, and then there were one hundred 266 00:13:51,440 --> 00:13:53,719 Speaker 2: and ninety three that he also controlled that were known 267 00:13:53,760 --> 00:13:56,880 Speaker 2: as dower slaves. And what that means is they were 268 00:13:57,040 --> 00:14:01,240 Speaker 2: technically legally owned by his wife, Martha. Now Martha married 269 00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:03,880 Speaker 2: George when she was twenty five. She was a widow 270 00:14:03,880 --> 00:14:06,160 Speaker 2: at the time, and she had taken on slaves both 271 00:14:06,160 --> 00:14:09,440 Speaker 2: from her own family and from her ex husband who 272 00:14:09,520 --> 00:14:14,360 Speaker 2: passed away. So it's really really interesting and it can 273 00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:18,640 Speaker 2: be kind of fascinating to look at the legal structure 274 00:14:18,640 --> 00:14:21,040 Speaker 2: of slavery until you remember that we're talking about actual 275 00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:24,960 Speaker 2: human beings. But the way that slavery and the legality 276 00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:28,720 Speaker 2: of who owns what was structured in the seventeen hundreds 277 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:31,160 Speaker 2: is it's just to me, it's so odd that you 278 00:14:31,160 --> 00:14:33,040 Speaker 2: can be talking about a human being in this way. 279 00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:36,520 Speaker 2: So the one hundred and twenty three slaves that Washington 280 00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:39,160 Speaker 2: himself had, they were matched with one hundred and ninety three, 281 00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:43,640 Speaker 2: which were legally Martha's but as a married couple, were 282 00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:48,000 Speaker 2: legally controlled by George. And there's all this strange legally 283 00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:51,920 Speaker 2: is that when George or Martha dies, certain segments of 284 00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:56,400 Speaker 2: the Washingtonian slaves are passed to a grandchild or a cousin, 285 00:14:56,760 --> 00:14:59,320 Speaker 2: and it all depends on this sort of weird patriarchal 286 00:14:59,480 --> 00:15:03,280 Speaker 2: but then also matrilineal lignage of ownership of another person. 287 00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:05,520 Speaker 2: But there is one enslaved person that I want to 288 00:15:05,560 --> 00:15:09,800 Speaker 2: talk about, and that's Ony Judge. Now, Ony Judge is 289 00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:14,840 Speaker 2: one of the most well known enslaved people involved in 290 00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:18,240 Speaker 2: in Washington, and that's because she escaped. She was able 291 00:15:18,280 --> 00:15:22,280 Speaker 2: to tell her story to abolitionist newspapers at the time 292 00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:25,040 Speaker 2: and got her account out there. Now, what makes this 293 00:15:25,160 --> 00:15:27,840 Speaker 2: such a strange bit of history is that Ony Judge 294 00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:31,320 Speaker 2: was a slave that Washington pursued until the end of 295 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:34,520 Speaker 2: his life. She got away. And if you listened to 296 00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:37,560 Speaker 2: the episode from last week, Noel talked about how Washington's 297 00:15:38,040 --> 00:15:41,320 Speaker 2: thoughts on slavery were somewhat liberal and they evolved over time. 298 00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:46,240 Speaker 2: And that's true. He did grow to oppose the idea 299 00:15:46,280 --> 00:15:49,040 Speaker 2: of slavery, the idea of holding other people in bondage, 300 00:15:49,320 --> 00:15:51,720 Speaker 2: but he never freed his own slaves. He still kept 301 00:15:51,760 --> 00:15:55,400 Speaker 2: them enslaved. He used their free labor, and he built 302 00:15:55,400 --> 00:15:58,040 Speaker 2: his fortune and his empire, whether it was a large 303 00:15:58,080 --> 00:16:01,840 Speaker 2: fortune or not, on the labor of others. So let's 304 00:16:01,840 --> 00:16:04,520 Speaker 2: talk about Onnie Judge. She was born in seventeen seventy three. 305 00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:07,400 Speaker 2: She probably came into the Washington family when she was 306 00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:10,240 Speaker 2: around ten or eleven and was purchased as a playmate, 307 00:16:10,680 --> 00:16:13,440 Speaker 2: it's thought for one of the family members. Now, Oni 308 00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:18,560 Speaker 2: has her own interesting history. Her father was a British businessman. 309 00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:21,640 Speaker 2: He was white, but he never acknowledged paternity, and so 310 00:16:21,720 --> 00:16:25,400 Speaker 2: she was able to be sold into slavery, and that's 311 00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:30,720 Speaker 2: where she comes in Now. In seventeen ninety six, Oni 312 00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:34,760 Speaker 2: learned that she was going to be gifted to Washington's granddaughter. 313 00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:37,840 Speaker 2: And when we talk about the granddaughters of Washington, basically 314 00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:41,680 Speaker 2: we're talking about the children of Martha Washington and kind 315 00:16:41,720 --> 00:16:44,640 Speaker 2: of her her folks, because as we just mentioned, George 316 00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:47,680 Speaker 2: himself never had any kids. And so in seventeen ninety six, 317 00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:51,280 Speaker 2: only learns that she's going to be gifted presented as 318 00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:55,720 Speaker 2: a wedding present to these new newlyweds. So she escapes 319 00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:58,720 Speaker 2: in May of seventeen ninety six, she flies the coup. 320 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:02,600 Speaker 2: For a couple of years, she's free, but a couple 321 00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:04,879 Speaker 2: years later she's spotted in New Hampshire, and this whole 322 00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:08,480 Speaker 2: time the Washington family is after her. They've lost property. 323 00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:11,800 Speaker 2: Despite the fact that Washington had mixed feelings about slavery, 324 00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:14,600 Speaker 2: it seems like from the historical record that a lot 325 00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:17,879 Speaker 2: of his family, including Martha, did not have mixed feelings, 326 00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:21,760 Speaker 2: and they felt pretty strongly that enslaved Africans were their 327 00:17:21,800 --> 00:17:24,840 Speaker 2: property and were owned wholly by them. So they took 328 00:17:24,840 --> 00:17:28,080 Speaker 2: out ads in local papers advertising a reward for the 329 00:17:28,119 --> 00:17:31,120 Speaker 2: return of Onnie, and a couple years later she's spotted 330 00:17:31,119 --> 00:17:33,320 Speaker 2: in New Hampshire, and Washington reaches out to a friend 331 00:17:33,359 --> 00:17:36,440 Speaker 2: of his in New Hampshire and asks him to abduct 332 00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:40,199 Speaker 2: Onie to return this person back to Mount Vernon, And 333 00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:44,240 Speaker 2: so you know, he's encouraging kidnapping. At the time, he 334 00:17:44,280 --> 00:17:47,000 Speaker 2: probably saw it as a return of property. But the 335 00:17:47,040 --> 00:17:51,400 Speaker 2: thing about Washington and his slaveholding is it wasn't as straightforward. 336 00:17:51,960 --> 00:17:55,800 Speaker 2: It wasn't wholly villainous as it's easy to paint, but 337 00:17:55,840 --> 00:17:59,679 Speaker 2: it's also wasn't wholly by the books. Washington was pretty 338 00:17:59,680 --> 00:18:02,360 Speaker 2: eager to skirt some of the laws when it came 339 00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:06,520 Speaker 2: to slavery. When he was president, he was living in Philadelphia, 340 00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:09,360 Speaker 2: which at the time was the capital of the United States. 341 00:18:10,320 --> 00:18:14,840 Speaker 2: In Pennsylvania had certain laws for slaveholders and citizens of 342 00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:18,600 Speaker 2: Pennsylvania because at the time different states had their own citizenship. 343 00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:21,480 Speaker 2: Washington argued, though, that he was a citizen of Virginia 344 00:18:21,760 --> 00:18:23,199 Speaker 2: so that he didn't have to abide by some of 345 00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:27,639 Speaker 2: the slavery laws of Pennsylvania. He also would rotate his 346 00:18:27,800 --> 00:18:32,520 Speaker 2: slaves between the home in Pennsylvania and Virginia for periods 347 00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:35,360 Speaker 2: of time of less than six months, just moving them 348 00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:39,679 Speaker 2: around like property so that they would not qualify or 349 00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:43,439 Speaker 2: meet certain criteria under Pennsylvania law. So this is a 350 00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:48,879 Speaker 2: man who saw financial assets, who pursued them as they escaped, 351 00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:53,000 Speaker 2: and until his death he tried to get Onie back. Thankfully, 352 00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:57,640 Speaker 2: Onie was never returned. She was captured at one point, 353 00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:01,359 Speaker 2: and she tried to negotiate with Washington. She said she 354 00:19:01,440 --> 00:19:06,399 Speaker 2: sent message saying, look, I will willingly be returned to 355 00:19:06,680 --> 00:19:11,120 Speaker 2: enslavement with your family if you promise that upon your 356 00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:13,719 Speaker 2: death and the death of Martha, I am free. And 357 00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:16,680 Speaker 2: Washington didn't even negotiate. He said, I'm not even going 358 00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:19,679 Speaker 2: to consider these demands because doing so would set a 359 00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:24,800 Speaker 2: bad precedent, and this is not you don't negotiate with property. Essentially. Wow, yeah, 360 00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:28,440 Speaker 2: and I wish there were a happy ending to this story. 361 00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:31,080 Speaker 2: There's also not a sad ending to the story. Oni. 362 00:19:31,240 --> 00:19:34,359 Speaker 2: Eventually she stayed in New Hampshire. She was not returned 363 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:37,720 Speaker 2: to the Washington family. She married a sailor named Jack Stains. 364 00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:40,960 Speaker 2: Over their married life, they had three kids, who then 365 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:44,680 Speaker 2: had their own children. But the fact of the matter 366 00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:47,120 Speaker 2: is that throughout the rest of her life, even though 367 00:19:47,160 --> 00:19:51,880 Speaker 2: she had escaped enslavement by the Washington family, she lived 368 00:19:51,920 --> 00:19:54,919 Speaker 2: as a fugitive under the Fugitive Slave Act, which Washington 369 00:19:54,960 --> 00:19:57,640 Speaker 2: signed into law, and until her dying day in eighteen 370 00:19:57,800 --> 00:20:00,800 Speaker 2: forty eight, she lived as a as a fugitive. There 371 00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:03,000 Speaker 2: was always, always, always a chance that she could be 372 00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:04,240 Speaker 2: taken back to Virginia. 373 00:20:04,359 --> 00:20:06,920 Speaker 3: It's terrifying way to live. I can't imagine. 374 00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:07,760 Speaker 2: Ah. 375 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:09,959 Speaker 3: So, no, not a happy ending at all. 376 00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:13,560 Speaker 2: Huh No. And it's you know, I don't I don't 377 00:20:13,560 --> 00:20:16,040 Speaker 2: want to tarnish the legacy of a great American, but 378 00:20:16,119 --> 00:20:19,960 Speaker 2: we also don't need to look back and over mythologize someone. 379 00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:22,800 Speaker 2: I think it's more accurate to look at history as 380 00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:24,919 Speaker 2: it was, to look at the man as he was, 381 00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:27,960 Speaker 2: and to acknowledge that this was part of a complicated 382 00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:32,680 Speaker 2: life and he had complicated feelings. And as America has 383 00:20:32,840 --> 00:20:38,320 Speaker 2: evolved and continues to evolve, so too did Washington, just 384 00:20:38,320 --> 00:20:41,440 Speaker 2: just not at the pace that that it would be 385 00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:43,879 Speaker 2: nice to acknowledge. You know again, people say that he 386 00:20:43,880 --> 00:20:47,160 Speaker 2: freed all of his slaves in his will. The fact 387 00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:49,720 Speaker 2: of the matter is that after he died, of those 388 00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:52,320 Speaker 2: more than three hundred slaves that he had control over, 389 00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:56,879 Speaker 2: only one, a man named William Lee, was set free. 390 00:20:56,880 --> 00:20:59,880 Speaker 2: Martha dragged things out. For a lot of the other 391 00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:04,760 Speaker 2: hundreds of slaves, they were still enslaved for decades. Eventually 392 00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:08,800 Speaker 2: some of them gained their freedom. But again we're talking five, ten, 393 00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:14,399 Speaker 2: fifteen years. So despite George Washington's will and his desire 394 00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:17,280 Speaker 2: to set his slaves free, which I might add, is 395 00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:20,480 Speaker 2: after he's left this earth and after he has to 396 00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:23,719 Speaker 2: deal with the ramifications of what that means, he's still 397 00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:26,960 Speaker 2: throughout his life benefited from their free labor. It still 398 00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:28,639 Speaker 2: took years and years and years for the people that 399 00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:31,240 Speaker 2: he enslaved to find their freedom. 400 00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:35,320 Speaker 1: And we would be remiss if we did not point 401 00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:40,479 Speaker 1: out these facts. You know, I think it is It 402 00:21:40,520 --> 00:21:44,520 Speaker 1: is an unpleasant and disturbing part of the story. But 403 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:49,080 Speaker 1: I believe that same disturbing aspect is what makes it 404 00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:52,320 Speaker 1: crucial that we not just us on the show, not 405 00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:56,200 Speaker 1: just us listening, but we as a country remember what happened. 406 00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:05,680 Speaker 1: I've got to say, Christopher, I feel that I feel 407 00:22:05,680 --> 00:22:08,400 Speaker 1: it would be weird for us to end on such 408 00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:13,080 Speaker 1: a very serious, somber note. What what do you think 409 00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:15,639 Speaker 1: you're you're the guest today, what do you think about 410 00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:19,240 Speaker 1: us exploring one more strange George Washington fact. 411 00:22:19,480 --> 00:22:23,080 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, absolutely. I mean again, it's a man contains multitudes, 412 00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:25,919 Speaker 2: and there's a lot to George Washington, and he's one 413 00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:28,159 Speaker 2: of the foundational characters of our country and there's so 414 00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:32,600 Speaker 2: much to know about him. So yeah, like, let's turn 415 00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:35,159 Speaker 2: to Noel. No, let's can you can you dig us 416 00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:36,800 Speaker 2: out of this slavery hole? 417 00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:38,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, muddy hole? 418 00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:42,240 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, only our original idea of the muddy hole 419 00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:43,359 Speaker 4: is much more whimsical. 420 00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:46,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm not so, you know now I'm not as 421 00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:49,000 Speaker 1: on board as it was with finding this guy a 422 00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:49,800 Speaker 1: cool middle name. 423 00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:57,000 Speaker 4: No, no, So we all know the classic Washingtonian look, 424 00:22:57,359 --> 00:23:01,040 Speaker 4: the profile, you know, with the appears to be a 425 00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:02,440 Speaker 4: powdered wig of some sort. 426 00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:04,000 Speaker 2: That's what they all wore at the time. 427 00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:08,800 Speaker 1: Peruke, Well done, Christ except for Benjamin Franklin. 428 00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:09,280 Speaker 3: That's right. 429 00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:12,399 Speaker 4: Benjamin Franklin just had kind of a broad top and 430 00:23:12,440 --> 00:23:14,520 Speaker 4: a bit of a greasy ponytail in the back. The 431 00:23:14,520 --> 00:23:17,919 Speaker 4: ponytail was the height of fashion at the time. But 432 00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:21,360 Speaker 4: here's the thing, and again, that profile. You you probably 433 00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:23,679 Speaker 4: know it well from those dollar bills, you were least thing. 434 00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:25,840 Speaker 4: That's not a profile and dollar bill, it's a profile. 435 00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:27,120 Speaker 3: In the quarter. But on the dollar bill. 436 00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:30,440 Speaker 2: It's it's a three quarter kind of and then you 437 00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:33,320 Speaker 2: know you've got your creepy pyramid eye. But that's a 438 00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:33,960 Speaker 2: whole other thing. 439 00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:35,359 Speaker 4: We did a whole episode on that on our other 440 00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:36,720 Speaker 4: show Stuff they Don't want you to Know, and actually 441 00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:38,879 Speaker 4: took it on the road, so we know the creepy 442 00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:41,720 Speaker 4: pyramid eye. Well, the eye of Horace, I believe, right, Ben, 443 00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:44,520 Speaker 4: that's one interpretation. That's right, that's true. Listening to the 444 00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:47,679 Speaker 4: show to to find out more. But no, it turns 445 00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:52,840 Speaker 4: out that that weird peruke looking do that Washington was 446 00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:55,720 Speaker 4: supporting was not, in fact a wig. Those were his 447 00:23:56,200 --> 00:24:01,159 Speaker 4: natural hairs, and he went to great lengths to quaff 448 00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:04,800 Speaker 4: them as such. Just well, no, it didn't grow like 449 00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:08,160 Speaker 4: that he had that would be nice. He had quite 450 00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:12,960 Speaker 4: a regiment when it came to his keeping up his appearances, 451 00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:14,760 Speaker 4: so let me get me run through some of them 452 00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:17,480 Speaker 4: real quick. That his hair actually was more of kind 453 00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:21,440 Speaker 4: of a reddish brown. And here's the thing too, about 454 00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:24,119 Speaker 4: that particular haird of the time, it was a really 455 00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:27,879 Speaker 4: big deal. People liked to show as much forehead as possible. 456 00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:30,440 Speaker 4: That was like a sign of strength or something. 457 00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:31,119 Speaker 1: Intelligence. 458 00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:32,720 Speaker 3: Intelligence you had. 459 00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:35,080 Speaker 4: Like you know, a big, big, broad forehead. So in 460 00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:37,520 Speaker 4: order to do that, the reason they bound their hair 461 00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:40,720 Speaker 4: back in those ponytails was because it literally pulled, you know, 462 00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:43,080 Speaker 4: tightened it up and pulled the. 463 00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:45,120 Speaker 3: Brow up so you'd have more brow on display. 464 00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:48,160 Speaker 2: And the thought of the Klingons. 465 00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:53,160 Speaker 4: Exactly or else they would have loved face lifts. Can 466 00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:57,320 Speaker 4: you imagine, Yeah, Founding father facelifts. That's a reality show 467 00:24:57,320 --> 00:24:59,800 Speaker 4: waiting to happen right there, at least a spoof reality. 468 00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:02,919 Speaker 2: Sounds like a website too, it's Founding fathers facelifts dot. 469 00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:05,159 Speaker 3: Com and hard to say ten times fast fizz. 470 00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:09,280 Speaker 1: But his hair was quite in fashion. It was kind 471 00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:10,400 Speaker 1: of a tough hairdo right. 472 00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:12,800 Speaker 3: Very much so. Yeah, and it wasn't a wig. 473 00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:15,960 Speaker 4: But he powdered it as in the same way that 474 00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:19,600 Speaker 4: these perukes would be powdered. But there's the crazy part 475 00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:21,879 Speaker 4: about it. In order to do this, you know, this stuff, 476 00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:25,679 Speaker 4: it would be a couple of different potential types of powder. 477 00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:29,159 Speaker 4: Could be anything from talcum powder to other kind of 478 00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:32,800 Speaker 4: crushed up earth minerals that were a little more expensive, 479 00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:34,480 Speaker 4: which is more likely what he would have used. 480 00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:36,280 Speaker 1: Would they have done chalk? You think shock is. 481 00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:40,120 Speaker 2: Another possibility the bones of the British. 482 00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:40,760 Speaker 3: That would be cool. 483 00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:45,600 Speaker 4: I have nothing to confirm or deny that possibly asbestos. 484 00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:47,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, But here's the thing. 485 00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:50,359 Speaker 4: When he was doing it, in order to keep it 486 00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:53,959 Speaker 4: from you know, going up his quite sizable schnause and 487 00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:57,240 Speaker 4: you know, down his throat, he wore like a weird 488 00:25:57,400 --> 00:26:00,000 Speaker 4: cone on his face, like a like a rolled up 489 00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:03,320 Speaker 4: paper cone that he would hold over his face while 490 00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:08,080 Speaker 4: applying this powder. And he applied the power plaster of 491 00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:09,600 Speaker 4: Paris was another option route. 492 00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:10,560 Speaker 2: What happened if it rained? 493 00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:12,800 Speaker 4: Oh man, there's so many questions. What we're going to 494 00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:15,399 Speaker 4: get to that. So in order to apply this stuff, 495 00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:17,800 Speaker 4: he would use almost like a makeup brush made of 496 00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:21,120 Speaker 4: silk strips that were bound together in a bunch. So 497 00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:24,240 Speaker 4: he would dip this into the powder and then just 498 00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:26,880 Speaker 4: douse himself with it, you know, and when his face 499 00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:28,679 Speaker 4: would be covered up, and he'd also be wearing something 500 00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:32,080 Speaker 4: called a powder robe, and that would keep it off 501 00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:32,800 Speaker 4: of his clothes. 502 00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:37,199 Speaker 2: I feel like you need a whole powder room. Otherwise, 503 00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:41,400 Speaker 2: Christopher huss powder everywhere, and I guess that is a thing. 504 00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:44,160 Speaker 4: So you're thinking of the powder room more like Dexter's 505 00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:47,720 Speaker 4: kill room. It's just covered in plow rumors by friend. 506 00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:50,320 Speaker 3: Oh man, we're we're on a roll here. 507 00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:52,960 Speaker 2: But what a mess, right, an absolute mess. 508 00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:54,960 Speaker 4: You know, you're totally right, my friend, because even though 509 00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:57,240 Speaker 4: he was wearing his powder robe, what was to keep 510 00:26:57,240 --> 00:27:00,879 Speaker 4: this powder from just dusting every surface, you know, in 511 00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:01,520 Speaker 4: the vicinity. 512 00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:04,080 Speaker 2: And he's wearing this weird sort of it looks almost 513 00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:06,720 Speaker 2: like a plague mask thing to cover his heath exactly. 514 00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:08,840 Speaker 4: So it's a very odd situation to walk in on, 515 00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:11,760 Speaker 4: and he's doing it to himself, presumably, that's everything I've 516 00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:14,240 Speaker 4: read says he would this was his morning routine. 517 00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:16,400 Speaker 3: So he would powder. 518 00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:19,040 Speaker 4: The hell out of his hair that was already dulled 519 00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:22,960 Speaker 4: up in this dew, and then he would curl the 520 00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:25,760 Speaker 4: sides up into these kind of winglets, this little like 521 00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:28,000 Speaker 4: a little kind of they'd stick out, you know, like 522 00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:30,200 Speaker 4: little ridges, a little shelves on the side. In order 523 00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:33,199 Speaker 4: to do that, he'd use palmade, you know, get it 524 00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:36,920 Speaker 4: all nice and greasy, and it would hold its shape. So, yeah, 525 00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:39,760 Speaker 4: he got his hair so saturated with his powder that 526 00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:41,639 Speaker 4: it didn't look like it was just kind of dusted. 527 00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:44,080 Speaker 4: I mean, it was just white as the driven snow. 528 00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:44,480 Speaker 2: Wow. 529 00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:46,120 Speaker 3: Here's the thing too. 530 00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:48,480 Speaker 4: This is a question that was raised in this fantastic 531 00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:53,119 Speaker 4: article that had really great company illustrations by Wendy McNaughton 532 00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:57,240 Speaker 4: for National Geographic, that has these really great cartoons showing 533 00:27:57,280 --> 00:27:59,119 Speaker 4: him what it must have looked like for him to 534 00:27:59,240 --> 00:27:59,800 Speaker 4: be doing this. 535 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:01,760 Speaker 3: I cannot recommend this highly enough. 536 00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:04,840 Speaker 4: It's called George Washington's Oh So Mysterious Hair. 537 00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:07,640 Speaker 2: No will you? Will you post that on the ridiculous 538 00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:08,360 Speaker 2: Historian space. 539 00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:12,440 Speaker 1: Under the carbuncles? That's a callback. 540 00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:16,240 Speaker 4: It's a callback, and that is going to remain a 541 00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:18,439 Speaker 4: carbuncle free zone if I have anything to do with it. 542 00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:20,440 Speaker 3: Ben. But here's the thing. 543 00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:23,680 Speaker 4: A question that she raises in this article is, well, 544 00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:25,640 Speaker 4: how the hell did he keep this off his clothes? 545 00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:28,320 Speaker 4: In all of these portraits of him, he looks so pristine, 546 00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:30,240 Speaker 4: and you would think that this stuff would just be 547 00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:31,160 Speaker 4: flaking off. 548 00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:34,320 Speaker 2: Everything flaking off. I mean, you're wearing these tight clothes 549 00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:37,600 Speaker 2: made of wool in with the American South, are you not. 550 00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:41,920 Speaker 2: I would be sweating buckets and just have white powder 551 00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:43,800 Speaker 2: dripping down down. 552 00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:45,880 Speaker 4: Yeah, it does seem like it would be very gross. 553 00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:50,880 Speaker 4: And there is one portrait by Adolph Ulrich Wertmueller, who 554 00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:54,640 Speaker 4: depicts him with some kind of little dandruffy flakes on 555 00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:57,920 Speaker 4: one show on one lapel like that of humanity, Touch 556 00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:00,920 Speaker 4: of humanity. So there you go. He had a weird 557 00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:01,600 Speaker 4: hair routine. 558 00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:03,960 Speaker 2: So and the lesson is that the portraits are not 559 00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:07,160 Speaker 2: always a accurate representation of what someone might really look like. Well, 560 00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:07,520 Speaker 2: that's true. 561 00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:09,400 Speaker 4: And at the end of the day, I mean, you're 562 00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:13,800 Speaker 4: sort of beholden to the person that's paying you to 563 00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:14,720 Speaker 4: paint their portrait. 564 00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:18,120 Speaker 2: So listeners, please do not run into the National Portrait 565 00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:20,000 Speaker 2: Gallery and throw a little flex of white paint on 566 00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:23,120 Speaker 2: anything that you think would be more historically accurate. 567 00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:26,840 Speaker 1: And there we have it. George Washington, first President of 568 00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:32,280 Speaker 1: the United States, whiskey, tycoon, dabbler and hemp, a freemason, 569 00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:38,480 Speaker 1: extraordinary slave owner, and a man with very, very strict 570 00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:40,280 Speaker 1: priorities regarding his hair. 571 00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:41,160 Speaker 3: It's very true. 572 00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:43,360 Speaker 2: No middle name, no middle name. 573 00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:45,880 Speaker 3: What else? What were some of the little trivia bits 574 00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:46,320 Speaker 3: from the top. 575 00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:50,240 Speaker 2: Well, he's got his you know, his terrific title in 576 00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:54,800 Speaker 2: the military that he will forever and always be Supreme Commander. 577 00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:56,880 Speaker 4: General of the Armies of the United States. Did you 578 00:29:56,920 --> 00:30:00,800 Speaker 4: mention the carbuncles that he's crusted with, but. 579 00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:01,960 Speaker 2: Krusty, sickly man. 580 00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:06,120 Speaker 1: They're not clear on how how inundated he was with carbuncles. 581 00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:07,240 Speaker 1: We can only hope that it was. 582 00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:09,960 Speaker 4: If these Google images have anything to say about it, 583 00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:11,240 Speaker 4: it was a real nightmare. 584 00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:13,680 Speaker 2: I gotta say, Ben, you mentioned him as one of 585 00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:17,360 Speaker 2: the sickliest presidents and listed out a litany of maladies 586 00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:21,000 Speaker 2: he'd been inflicted with. But if he survived all those things, 587 00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:24,040 Speaker 2: I'd say he's pretty strong, and maybe we should wrap 588 00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:26,520 Speaker 2: up by talking about these somewhat ridiculous way in which 589 00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:29,640 Speaker 2: he died. He did have all these maladies, but in 590 00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:33,160 Speaker 2: seventeen ninety nine, back in December, what historians think really 591 00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:36,760 Speaker 2: killed him is a doctor medical malpractice. Yes, a doctor 592 00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:40,360 Speaker 2: who basically overbled him, drained him too much. 593 00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:43,400 Speaker 4: And we already know that blood letting was a very 594 00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:44,920 Speaker 4: stupid remedy. 595 00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:47,680 Speaker 2: And he was he was too blood let Yeah, yeah, 596 00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:48,280 Speaker 2: that's right. 597 00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:52,160 Speaker 1: We have the specifics here too. It was a guy 598 00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:56,280 Speaker 1: named all Ben Rawlins who all in all, after four 599 00:30:56,360 --> 00:30:59,640 Speaker 1: rounds of blood letting, removed something like five pints of 600 00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:01,000 Speaker 1: blood from the president. 601 00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:02,680 Speaker 2: That doctor Albin. 602 00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:07,520 Speaker 1: I know, I know, I'm glad that blood letting is 603 00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:11,240 Speaker 1: not a common practice in medical centers today. 604 00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:12,640 Speaker 3: Do you think he got in trouble? 605 00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:15,640 Speaker 1: I don't know. It's a it's a good question because 606 00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:18,840 Speaker 1: I think there have been some other presidents who died 607 00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:22,720 Speaker 1: as a result of well intentioned medical intervention. 608 00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:24,719 Speaker 3: Well, that's why they call it practicing medicine. 609 00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:28,720 Speaker 1: That's why they call it practicing medicine. Indeed, And on 610 00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:32,280 Speaker 1: that note, we hope you enjoyed our two part series, 611 00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:37,000 Speaker 1: A Weird George Washington Facts, which does count technically until 612 00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:40,480 Speaker 1: we do another one as our Washington episode in a 613 00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:45,200 Speaker 1: bizarre series of circumstances. Christopher, thank you so much for 614 00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:47,680 Speaker 1: dropping by. It is always an immense pleasure. 615 00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:50,200 Speaker 2: I'm happy to count myself among the two of you 616 00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:51,720 Speaker 2: as practicing podcasters. 617 00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:54,760 Speaker 4: We do our best to keep our podcasting chops sharp, 618 00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:55,760 Speaker 4: well practiced. 619 00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:58,320 Speaker 1: Thank you, sir, and thank you to our super producer, 620 00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:01,200 Speaker 1: Casey Pegram. Thank you to Alexilliams who composed our track. 621 00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:04,320 Speaker 4: Thank you to Gabe, our delightful research associate, and of course, 622 00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:07,120 Speaker 4: thank you to our wonderful guest Christopher Hasciotis and dear 623 00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:10,640 Speaker 4: friend for as always lighting up the room, sparking up 624 00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:13,760 Speaker 4: our lives, giving Ben his groove back after you took 625 00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:14,200 Speaker 4: it away. 626 00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:17,040 Speaker 2: Truly, truly, truly, this is something that sparks joy. 627 00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:20,640 Speaker 1: Oh boy. Well, if you want to continue the conversation, 628 00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:23,080 Speaker 1: if you want to check out some of the things 629 00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:26,360 Speaker 1: that we have mentioned other than carbuncles, you can visit 630 00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:29,280 Speaker 1: us on the internet. We're on Instagram, We're on Facebook, 631 00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:33,320 Speaker 1: We're on Twitter, that's the other one. You can find 632 00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:37,120 Speaker 1: our favorite partner show your fellow Ridiculous Historians on our 633 00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:40,760 Speaker 1: Facebook community page Ridiculous Historians. If you want to see 634 00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:46,520 Speaker 1: some pictures of very strange misadventures, I will be having shortly. 635 00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:49,320 Speaker 1: Follow me on Instagram. I'm at Ben Bowen. 636 00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:51,040 Speaker 3: And i am at Embryonic Insider. 637 00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:54,800 Speaker 2: Find me over at Haciotis Hassiotis. 638 00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:58,640 Speaker 4: Christopher will be having some incredible adventures in podcasting coming 639 00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:00,000 Speaker 4: down the pikes in the near future. 640 00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:02,320 Speaker 2: I will keep you all super updated. 641 00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:04,920 Speaker 3: Please do. We'll see you next time, folks. 642 00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:08,960 Speaker 4: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 643 00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:11,200 Speaker 4: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.