WEBVTT - Everything Is Advertising with Ryan Barwick 0:00:02.480 --> 0:00:03.560 Also media. 0:00:05.160 --> 0:00:07.480 Hello, and welcome to Better Offline. I'm the single most 0:00:07.640 --> 0:00:10.280 punished individual alive. My name is Ed Zitron. I'm your 0:00:10.320 --> 0:00:25.479 host today. I'm joined by Ryan Barwick of Morning Brew 0:00:25.600 --> 0:00:27.840 and Marketing Bruce specifically, of course, Ryan, thank you for 0:00:27.920 --> 0:00:28.320 joining me. 0:00:28.440 --> 0:00:29.760 Hey man, what's up? How's it going? 0:00:30.160 --> 0:00:33.240 We are in the beautiful New York studios of iHeartRadio, 0:00:33.400 --> 0:00:35.960 Daniel Goodman of course producing Live with Us, live to tape, 0:00:36.000 --> 0:00:38.920 of course, and Ryan's here to talk to me about advertising. 0:00:39.400 --> 0:00:41.760 And we're going to start somewhere fairly obvious, which is, 0:00:42.479 --> 0:00:45.440 what is the kind of status of the Google Ads 0:00:45.479 --> 0:00:47.120 antitrust case? Where are we at? 0:00:48.080 --> 0:00:53.640 Yeah? I spent in September. I spent two weeks in Alexandria, Virginia, 0:00:53.880 --> 0:00:59.560 sexy Alexander, sitting on a wooden bench, listening to hours 0:00:59.600 --> 0:01:04.720 and hours of economists explaining auction bidding. I know you're 0:01:04.840 --> 0:01:05.880 very that. 0:01:05.800 --> 0:01:08.360 This is no, but seriously actually explain on. 0:01:08.640 --> 0:01:11.080 Yeah, no, no, I mean it was. I got a 0:01:11.120 --> 0:01:13.640 noseblade halfway through it because it was at times very 0:01:13.720 --> 0:01:18.759 dull but also very exciting. Essentially, the DOJ is arguing 0:01:19.040 --> 0:01:23.360 that Google doesn't just have a monopoly on digital advertising, 0:01:23.360 --> 0:01:26.640 but they own the entire supply chain, right, So Google 0:01:26.680 --> 0:01:29.640 owns the software that publishers used to like the New 0:01:29.720 --> 0:01:32.679 York Times of the Wall Street Journal, to run ads 0:01:32.680 --> 0:01:36.720 on their website and to monetize their content. Google also 0:01:36.840 --> 0:01:40.160 owns or monopoly has a monopoly on the software that 0:01:40.280 --> 0:01:44.520 advertisers are using to to reach those audiences on the 0:01:44.520 --> 0:01:47.000 New York Times in the Wall Street Journal. And in 0:01:47.040 --> 0:01:50.840 between those two pieces of software, there's this auction software. 0:01:50.880 --> 0:01:54.680 There's a bidding platform, and Google also owns that, right, 0:01:54.760 --> 0:01:58.160 So they own every piece of The DOJ is alleging 0:01:58.600 --> 0:02:03.760 that they own every piece of supply chain, and they really, 0:02:04.000 --> 0:02:06.160 I mean, at one point the DOJ said Google sees 0:02:06.520 --> 0:02:10.840 I think nine out of every ten digital transaction. So 0:02:10.840 --> 0:02:12.920 that's that's pretty large, right, That's a lot of them. 0:02:13.080 --> 0:02:17.320 That's pretty big. And it was fascinating over the course 0:02:17.320 --> 0:02:19.119 of two weeks. I was only there for two weeks. 0:02:19.160 --> 0:02:20.639 I believe it went on for a little bit more 0:02:20.680 --> 0:02:23.760 than three. We kind of got a history of ad tech, 0:02:23.840 --> 0:02:30.600 which is this incredibly complex, incredibly dense, incredibly dorky industry 0:02:31.120 --> 0:02:33.560 to just kind of explain how the Internet makes money. 0:02:33.880 --> 0:02:36.640 And Google has been on the receiving end of a 0:02:36.680 --> 0:02:40.560 lot of those advertising dollars, of those ad budgets, and 0:02:40.600 --> 0:02:45.080 it's fascinating. So we had the Monday before Thanksgiving, we 0:02:45.120 --> 0:02:47.880 had closing arguments, which is where the DOJ and Google 0:02:47.919 --> 0:02:52.000 get to make their final stand before the judge and 0:02:52.080 --> 0:02:55.120 make their arguments. The DJ again just kind of pointed 0:02:55.160 --> 0:02:57.360 to Google size. 0:02:57.160 --> 0:02:59.720 And that they own every single part of the stack. 0:03:00.280 --> 0:03:02.959 Right, or certainly the most successful parts of the stack. 0:03:03.680 --> 0:03:07.640 And then Google essentially countered by saying, look, we're really 0:03:07.639 --> 0:03:10.200 good at what we do, and it's hard to argue 0:03:10.240 --> 0:03:12.639 with them in the sense that they have so much 0:03:12.760 --> 0:03:16.400 data that they can monetize these things really efficiently. Because 0:03:16.400 --> 0:03:18.440 they see so much, they can get really good at it. 0:03:18.520 --> 0:03:21.000 It feels like the argument that would be, well, you 0:03:21.040 --> 0:03:23.600 have all this data from the monopolies you're doing, so 0:03:23.639 --> 0:03:25.440 I'm guessing that's kind of how the DJ came in it. 0:03:25.639 --> 0:03:28.400 Yeah, yes, And and it was interesting on the first 0:03:28.480 --> 0:03:33.279 day the DOJ said, you have all of these advertisers, 0:03:33.280 --> 0:03:36.400 but we never really delve delved into why they have 0:03:36.440 --> 0:03:39.680 so many advertisers. YouTube was almost never mentioned during the 0:03:39.720 --> 0:03:44.640 case Gmail Chrome right. Obviously, there's a much sexier trial 0:03:45.080 --> 0:03:49.440 that that is still ongoing. Well has already Amy has 0:03:49.440 --> 0:03:52.080 already reached its conclusion. The real heads were at the 0:03:52.080 --> 0:03:54.680 attack trial I like to see. The real dorks were 0:03:54.720 --> 0:03:59.800 at the much more complex and boring trial. So that 0:03:59.880 --> 0:04:04.680 wasn't really necessarily touched on, and again it will be 0:04:04.720 --> 0:04:07.480 really interesting. One thing that I kind of took away 0:04:07.560 --> 0:04:09.440 from the trial, and this is called like the it's 0:04:09.680 --> 0:04:11.640 it's a rocket docket, so it happens really quickly. We 0:04:11.880 --> 0:04:15.400 could find out before Christmas or even in early January, 0:04:15.600 --> 0:04:20.760 what decision the judge has reached. But one thing that 0:04:20.800 --> 0:04:23.920 I really took away from it is that the DOJ 0:04:24.200 --> 0:04:29.279 was basically pointing out issues or decisions Google made to 0:04:29.360 --> 0:04:33.440 maintain a monopoly, things that had happened ten years ago, 0:04:33.520 --> 0:04:36.359 things that had happened twelve years ago in some instances. 0:04:36.400 --> 0:04:39.760 So Google does something and the industry has to respond, 0:04:39.880 --> 0:04:43.120 and then Google does another thing. Can you give an example, Well, 0:04:43.160 --> 0:04:46.760 there are these, you know strategies. One was called like 0:04:47.000 --> 0:04:50.400 last look, where Google would get the last look at 0:04:50.440 --> 0:04:53.080 a bid between an advertiser and I Jason. 0:04:53.680 --> 0:04:55.919 Jason brought that up on a previous like the idea 0:04:55.920 --> 0:04:57.760 that like right then they go and we can just 0:04:57.800 --> 0:04:58.800 bid under them. 0:04:58.640 --> 0:05:02.240 Right exactly, so so then that Google would do that right, 0:05:02.279 --> 0:05:04.640 and then the industry would try to work around that, 0:05:06.200 --> 0:05:09.039 and ultimately things have reached kind of a I don't 0:05:09.080 --> 0:05:11.839 know if copasatic is the correct term. Things have kind 0:05:11.839 --> 0:05:15.320 of leveled out there, especially as advertisers are more drawn 0:05:15.400 --> 0:05:19.200 to like streaming platforms. They're more drawn to a platform 0:05:19.240 --> 0:05:23.279 like a TikTok or a Twitter social media platforms, you know, 0:05:24.040 --> 0:05:27.120 Banner ads are kind of like I think among most buyers, 0:05:27.160 --> 0:05:30.320 are kind of like the least sexy version of advertising, 0:05:30.320 --> 0:05:32.480 can you Yeah, I think the common frame like, can 0:05:32.520 --> 0:05:34.440 you name any banner ad you've ever seen? 0:05:36.160 --> 0:05:39.320 Only that McDonald's one from like twenty years ago where 0:05:39.320 --> 0:05:40.159 it said I'd hit that. 0:05:40.800 --> 0:05:41.400 Okay, there we go. 0:05:41.600 --> 0:05:44.240 That was a great ad. I've never fucked a burger, 0:05:44.279 --> 0:05:45.919 but I've thought about it for at least a second, 0:05:46.000 --> 0:05:49.640 so but never letting me correct. And it's my question 0:05:49.760 --> 0:05:53.440 is is that kind of advertising dying? Is ban a 0:05:53.480 --> 0:05:57.320 traditional that kind of media dying? Is it being replaced 0:05:57.360 --> 0:06:00.000 or is it just cheaper and shittya? 0:06:00.080 --> 0:06:02.320 You would hope it doesn't die because that is the 0:06:02.360 --> 0:06:04.280 kind of advertar. Yeah, that a lot of publishers. 0:06:04.279 --> 0:06:06.080 I wasn't asking because I wanted it to happen. 0:06:05.920 --> 0:06:09.000 Right, that a lot of publishers use, right, And obviously 0:06:09.000 --> 0:06:12.640 publishers have shifted to try to get subscriptions. I don't 0:06:12.640 --> 0:06:14.839 know if I'd go as far as saying it's dying, 0:06:14.880 --> 0:06:17.280 but the budgets are definitely shifted, and in the same 0:06:17.320 --> 0:06:22.280 way that linear television is losing viewers every year and 0:06:22.760 --> 0:06:24.680 people are adopting like streaming platforms. 0:06:24.760 --> 0:06:24.960 Right. 0:06:26.160 --> 0:06:28.240 Yeah, it's just it's it's not as interesting, it's not 0:06:28.279 --> 0:06:31.960 as sexy, and I do not know to kind of 0:06:32.000 --> 0:06:34.279 tie the knot here. I don't know what kind of 0:06:35.080 --> 0:06:38.800 remedy might solve that. Like, if Google's forced to sell 0:06:39.160 --> 0:06:42.960 it's auction software, it's exchange, what does that do? 0:06:43.120 --> 0:06:45.919 Like double click? Just they finally they after buying it, 0:06:45.920 --> 0:06:48.520 they just sell it again. Couldn't they sell access to 0:06:48.520 --> 0:06:50.440 the data, because that's kind of what they're suggesting with 0:06:50.480 --> 0:06:52.760 the search remedies listeners if you didn't know part of 0:06:52.800 --> 0:06:55.159 the suggested remedies, and the government been selling Chrome, which 0:06:55.160 --> 0:06:57.720 I'm going there on, but they're saying that they would 0:06:57.720 --> 0:07:01.400 allow other search engines to access Google's to them. Now, 0:07:01.560 --> 0:07:02.800 could a similar thing happen with. 0:07:02.720 --> 0:07:08.920 This, but yeah, I don't really know, Like the bitstreams 0:07:08.920 --> 0:07:12.320 here is so complex, there's so many players involved, I 0:07:12.360 --> 0:07:15.720 don't entirely know what that would look like, and I 0:07:15.720 --> 0:07:18.920 think that's part of the I'm sure Google's lawyers and 0:07:18.960 --> 0:07:22.000 the DJ's lawyers are wrestling over this kind of stuff, 0:07:22.000 --> 0:07:24.640 but you definitely got the sense, at least from the 0:07:25.960 --> 0:07:29.480 However many reporters were there, that this stuff is so 0:07:29.520 --> 0:07:32.760 weedy and so complex that I don't know how much 0:07:32.800 --> 0:07:34.440 of it is. Ultimately, I don't know what kind of 0:07:34.480 --> 0:07:38.680 remedies ultimately alleviate the concerns in the industry. Certainly many 0:07:38.720 --> 0:07:42.480 people feel like Google is a monopoly, but I'm not 0:07:42.640 --> 0:07:47.080 entirely sure where else they would take their dollar. But again, 0:07:47.200 --> 0:07:48.600 part of that is because Google is. 0:07:49.000 --> 0:07:50.240 Because there's never been another option. 0:07:50.440 --> 0:07:50.560 Right. 0:07:50.600 --> 0:07:52.440 It kind of makes me think of Facebook as well, 0:07:52.520 --> 0:07:55.680 because I know that there's I have they done an 0:07:55.680 --> 0:07:58.080 anti trust case against them? I forget, but I know 0:07:58.160 --> 0:07:59.680 the argument is that they have a monopoly of a 0:07:59.720 --> 0:08:04.239 social media which is true. But breaking up these companies 0:08:04.280 --> 0:08:06.680 seems I want them to do it, they need to 0:08:06.680 --> 0:08:08.200 do it, but I just have no idea how they 0:08:08.200 --> 0:08:11.520 could postbly like they're so deeply embedded in every corner 0:08:11.560 --> 0:08:14.280 of every part of the Internet at this point, I 0:08:14.320 --> 0:08:15.720 just don't know how practical that would be. 0:08:15.840 --> 0:08:18.120 Yeah, it was interesting Google brought up on the last 0:08:18.200 --> 0:08:21.520 day of the trial. They brought up Microsoft as its competitor. Look, 0:08:21.640 --> 0:08:26.640 Microsoft has Xbox. That's inventory that Google doesn't have access to. 0:08:26.720 --> 0:08:30.040 That's an advantage Microsoft has over Google. I don't think 0:08:30.080 --> 0:08:33.320 I've ever met a media buyer that has ever said, well, 0:08:33.400 --> 0:08:35.720 that Xbox inventory really. 0:08:35.559 --> 0:08:37.600 Yeah, we've got to make sure we're on a right. 0:08:37.559 --> 0:08:40.160 Right so like or the Microsoft has made a lot 0:08:40.160 --> 0:08:42.680 of inrows with retailers, for example. 0:08:42.400 --> 0:08:44.480 Haven't Microsoft been trying to do ads for years and 0:08:44.520 --> 0:08:46.160 never really made it? Well, they make it like a 0:08:46.200 --> 0:08:47.000 billion from being. 0:08:47.320 --> 0:08:52.599 Yeah, well, they have a very successful business around it, 0:08:52.640 --> 0:08:55.280 but it's certainly not It's not Google a juggernaut like 0:08:55.280 --> 0:08:56.560 a Google or an Amazon. 0:08:56.640 --> 0:08:59.560 And for context listeners, I think what a billion in 0:08:59.600 --> 0:09:03.120 revenue compared to several hundred billion from its the. 0:09:03.080 --> 0:09:05.280 Google makes forty billion a quarter. 0:09:05.679 --> 0:09:10.439 King is christ But there was one story I did 0:09:10.440 --> 0:09:12.120 want to talk to you about that you wrote back 0:09:12.120 --> 0:09:14.120 in September that we've talked about a few times. So 0:09:14.160 --> 0:09:16.719 this Facebook ads story because I actually think that this 0:09:16.800 --> 0:09:19.720 may be a story that gets bigger and bigger. But 0:09:20.040 --> 0:09:21.719 he wrote this story about he talked to a few 0:09:21.760 --> 0:09:25.080 ad buyers with Facebook and that Facebook's ads platform is 0:09:25.360 --> 0:09:27.240 kind of broken. Can you go into that bit? 0:09:27.520 --> 0:09:31.000 Yeah, this is something I noticed on Twitter or I 0:09:31.000 --> 0:09:32.079 guess we call it X now. 0:09:32.440 --> 0:09:36.480 I don't he dead names trans people. I'm dead naming Twitter. 0:09:36.600 --> 0:09:40.920 There you go. They're essentially buyers were saying, hey, so 0:09:41.320 --> 0:09:44.840 there are advertisers, but advertisers aren't pulling the levers. Usually 0:09:44.840 --> 0:09:47.480 advertisers go to ad agencies and the ad agencies. I 0:09:47.480 --> 0:09:50.760 don't know if your audience cares necessarily about that the alligation, 0:09:51.760 --> 0:09:53.960 but I saw a bunch of buyers saying, hey, you know, 0:09:54.040 --> 0:09:57.400 we we had ten thousand dollars disappear. We put it 0:09:57.480 --> 0:10:02.040 into into meta and it poof, it disappeared. It's gone. 0:10:02.520 --> 0:10:04.560 We don't know what happened to it. And you know, 0:10:04.640 --> 0:10:06.559 one guy saying that it's like, okay, maybe that is 0:10:06.600 --> 0:10:08.520 a bug. But then when you talk to eight media 0:10:08.559 --> 0:10:12.160 buyers and they all say since roughly January that the 0:10:12.200 --> 0:10:15.160 platform has become really wonky, that there are a lot 0:10:15.160 --> 0:10:18.280 of hurdles to overcome wonky how bugs. 0:10:18.400 --> 0:10:18.880 Essentially. 0:10:19.120 --> 0:10:24.040 Like again, someone in add tech described these advertising platforms 0:10:24.080 --> 0:10:25.640 like a Google like we were talking about, or a 0:10:25.679 --> 0:10:27.920 meta describe them that like, I shouldn't think about them 0:10:27.960 --> 0:10:30.840 as platforms, I should think about them as ATMs that like, 0:10:31.080 --> 0:10:34.200 you put money in these machines and then maybe money 0:10:34.200 --> 0:10:36.040 will come out, or at least you'll get a metric 0:10:36.080 --> 0:10:37.600 that tells you you made. 0:10:37.480 --> 0:10:38.959 A metric, which only they have. 0:10:39.240 --> 0:10:41.480 Right exactly that they have decided for you. 0:10:42.280 --> 0:10:44.599 And they are the ultimate auditor as well. 0:10:44.400 --> 0:10:48.280 Right, yeah, they're essentially there are buyers would say that 0:10:48.320 --> 0:10:51.400 these companies operate black boxes, right, that you can't really audit. 0:10:51.600 --> 0:10:54.920 But the black boxes do sell do hickeys and widgets, 0:10:55.000 --> 0:10:57.880 right like people do buy stuff on Instagram and and 0:10:58.080 --> 0:11:03.400 on Google and even on TikTok amazingly. But anyway, I 0:11:04.280 --> 0:11:06.240 ended up talking to several buyers that were saying that 0:11:06.600 --> 0:11:08.800 you know again, they would they would create a budget 0:11:08.800 --> 0:11:11.240 and then out of nowhere, I want to advertise on 0:11:11.320 --> 0:11:13.320 Instagram and then in the middle of the night at 0:11:13.360 --> 0:11:16.640 three in the morning. The campaign only targeted people on 0:11:16.679 --> 0:11:20.280 Facebook and only targeted eighty year old people on Facebook. Huh, 0:11:20.320 --> 0:11:22.440 and it didn't really work. And again, when you have 0:11:22.520 --> 0:11:26.000 so many people saying that that's what they encountered, that 0:11:25.880 --> 0:11:28.800 the platform wasn't really working the way they had expected 0:11:28.800 --> 0:11:32.559 to or the way it intended, and Meta essentially was 0:11:32.600 --> 0:11:34.800 saying kick rocks, like there's nothing we can do. 0:11:34.960 --> 0:11:37.199 Would meant to not to have that money or anything. 0:11:38.200 --> 0:11:40.640 No, I believe at the time I was talking to people, 0:11:40.760 --> 0:11:43.280 I don't think people had gotten credits yet. And as 0:11:43.320 --> 0:11:46.679 they were saying this, Meta had its like best quarter ever. Right, 0:11:46.800 --> 0:11:52.319 So MEDA doesn't necessarily need to help alleviate these small 0:11:52.440 --> 0:11:54.800 kind of buyers, even though these people in many instances 0:11:54.880 --> 0:11:57.679 are spending six figures on their advertising campaigns. 0:11:57.679 --> 0:11:59.800 Breaking that down. So these media buyers then not just 0:12:00.040 --> 0:12:01.760 of the listeners to break this down, so they're not 0:12:01.800 --> 0:12:05.000 buying for like one company they represent, well like ten fifty. 0:12:04.840 --> 0:12:07.600 They can they can work with ten brands they right, fifteen. 0:12:07.520 --> 0:12:10.560 So they're like an agency of Soort exactly. So I 0:12:10.600 --> 0:12:13.680 mean my thought, and that would be is how is 0:12:13.720 --> 0:12:16.560 Meta making all that money? And it's just it's very 0:12:16.679 --> 0:12:19.520 there's no just very basic thing. There's no other way 0:12:19.559 --> 0:12:21.840 to advertise on these platforms, right, there's no other inroad 0:12:21.880 --> 0:12:24.800 with Instagram or Facebook. Right, it's just this, Yes, that 0:12:24.920 --> 0:12:28.439 is insane, that is bonkers. Like, did you hear from 0:12:28.440 --> 0:12:30.520 Meta atal Did they get back to you? Yeah? 0:12:30.559 --> 0:12:34.720 I mean I think they would say that advertisers love 0:12:34.840 --> 0:12:37.240 meta right, great, and I think a lot of and 0:12:37.320 --> 0:12:39.200 a lot of people, you know, a lot of buyers 0:12:39.200 --> 0:12:41.880 will say, well it does work for them. Again sometimes 0:12:41.960 --> 0:12:45.360 outside of like that's why TikTok has become so interesting 0:12:45.400 --> 0:12:49.800 because TikTok kind of presents this third option where previously 0:12:49.840 --> 0:12:54.600 you could really only spend on a meta. Snap obviously exists. 0:12:54.760 --> 0:12:58.840 That company is not a good business. It never has been. 0:12:59.280 --> 0:13:00.800 I loved in high school. 0:13:00.840 --> 0:13:02.240 No, but that's the thing. It's like an app that 0:13:02.320 --> 0:13:04.679 has uses, but when they tried to add the business stuff, 0:13:04.679 --> 0:13:07.360 it just immediately like they're like, oh, this just spurns money. 0:13:07.480 --> 0:13:10.240 Snap's interesting because they take over every industry event and 0:13:10.240 --> 0:13:12.520 they always have such a presence, and yet I feel 0:13:12.520 --> 0:13:14.640 like the story at least every time I talk to 0:13:14.640 --> 0:13:17.320 people about Snap as a platform, I was getting Reddit 0:13:17.360 --> 0:13:19.520 has impressed a lot of people lately. But again, it 0:13:19.600 --> 0:13:22.880 wasn't until TikTok that people actually kind of raised eyebrows 0:13:22.880 --> 0:13:25.800 about another platform giving them that it gives advertisers kind 0:13:25.800 --> 0:13:39.120 of a diversity outside of just Meta and Instagram. 0:13:39.160 --> 0:13:41.160 Maybe you can actually answer this going back to Snapchat. 0:13:41.200 --> 0:13:43.400 Why isn't it? Is this stuff just not effective? But 0:13:43.480 --> 0:13:44.400 that ads not good? 0:13:44.679 --> 0:13:47.720 I don't know if I could necessarily speak to that. Okay, 0:13:47.760 --> 0:13:51.440 I'm always looking for like a broader picture, and for. 0:13:51.480 --> 0:13:53.800 Me in a qualitative one is just like what people 0:13:53.880 --> 0:13:55.600 saying stuff? Or is it just not that effective? 0:13:55.640 --> 0:13:58.199 I say, it's just not that like interesting, Like I 0:13:58.240 --> 0:14:00.320 don't think that. Every time I ask people about that, 0:14:00.320 --> 0:14:03.839 I don't get that many interesting answers. It's Reddit is fascinating. 0:14:03.920 --> 0:14:06.360 Reddit is like the wild West of the Internet, and 0:14:06.600 --> 0:14:07.920 I use Reddit constantly. 0:14:07.920 --> 0:14:10.599 We've got the better Offline Reddit full of various criminals 0:14:10.720 --> 0:14:12.199 and it's great. 0:14:12.480 --> 0:14:13.600 Do you see a lot of ads there? 0:14:14.000 --> 0:14:17.319 I move past them with the speed of pegasi. You've 0:14:17.320 --> 0:14:19.840 got the trained Yeah, I've just like old school hit 0:14:20.200 --> 0:14:23.120 just like no, just my brain removes it. 0:14:23.360 --> 0:14:24.760 Do you do that with newsletters too? 0:14:25.320 --> 0:14:25.640 Yeah? 0:14:25.840 --> 0:14:27.880 See, I feel like this is the thing. I'm curious 0:14:27.880 --> 0:14:29.960 how this evolves as the dorkiest conversation. 0:14:30.440 --> 0:14:32.320 What this is better offline? We have the dorkiest. 0:14:32.720 --> 0:14:34.800 I'm curious in five to ten years, like and I 0:14:34.880 --> 0:14:37.920 work at a newsletter company, but I'm curious if in 0:14:37.960 --> 0:14:39.720 five to ten years people aren't even going to look 0:14:39.720 --> 0:14:42.200 at newsletter ads because we've just trained the behavior to 0:14:42.800 --> 0:14:45.160 so look away, to know exactly when to skip. 0:14:45.240 --> 0:14:47.680 I've done test ads of like mates products like I 0:14:47.680 --> 0:14:50.160 don't no one will pay me for an ad other 0:14:50.240 --> 0:14:54.000 than this podcast that will humiliate me by trying to 0:14:54.040 --> 0:14:56.840 celluate I software, which everyone loves to tell me about. 0:14:57.080 --> 0:14:59.080 But like with the news letters, people do click, people 0:14:59.120 --> 0:15:01.760 do engage, and I found that across the board, and 0:15:01.800 --> 0:15:05.160 my general view is right now is newsletter companies are 0:15:05.160 --> 0:15:07.840 actually gonna do better. I don't. Do you remember back 0:15:07.880 --> 0:15:09.880 in like twenty twenty one, when every publication was like, 0:15:09.920 --> 0:15:12.400 we have to do newsletters now, and then they immediately 0:15:12.480 --> 0:15:15.680 junked it three months later. It just feels insane because 0:15:15.720 --> 0:15:18.160 that feels far more the future than any kind of 0:15:18.160 --> 0:15:22.239 subscription product like subscribe, Like The Verge has a subscription 0:15:22.320 --> 0:15:25.240 product now, and it sucks, like I get what they 0:15:25.280 --> 0:15:27.200 have to do it because money. Things cost money, But 0:15:27.640 --> 0:15:30.960 it just feels that that the whole media industry right now, 0:15:31.440 --> 0:15:33.240 needs to work out a way to connect with the readers, 0:15:33.240 --> 0:15:35.920 and it feels like their email address is good, it's 0:15:35.960 --> 0:15:36.840 like a good place for it. 0:15:37.000 --> 0:15:39.960 That's where I want. A New York magazine launched an app, 0:15:40.280 --> 0:15:43.080 and I want it to succeed. I love an app. 0:15:43.240 --> 0:15:46.880 They launched an app. They created an app as if 0:15:46.920 --> 0:15:50.000 it's you know, the iPad era of news whatever, but 0:15:50.040 --> 0:15:53.120 like an app for the an app that didn't magazine 0:15:54.040 --> 0:15:56.000 apparently not or they didn't put a lot of resources 0:15:56.000 --> 0:15:57.560 behind it, And I think that's great. I hope it 0:15:57.600 --> 0:15:59.920 makes money. But I just want a newsletter, and they do. 0:16:00.120 --> 0:16:03.000 They've got amazing newsletters. Yeah, I'll take another newsletter. I'll 0:16:03.000 --> 0:16:04.400 read something else from New York Max. 0:16:04.480 --> 0:16:07.240 So this is no completely different subject, but it's my 0:16:07.400 --> 0:16:10.960 damn show. The thing that I've been really thinking about 0:16:11.040 --> 0:16:15.360 right now with the media is the this objectivity problem 0:16:15.400 --> 0:16:17.320 where everyone has to be objective, but it also feels 0:16:17.360 --> 0:16:19.480 like every outlet is trying to suck the life out 0:16:19.480 --> 0:16:23.880 of the reporters, not like literally but no personality, no voice. 0:16:23.960 --> 0:16:26.560 Morning Brew actually does a pretty good job with that. 0:16:26.640 --> 0:16:29.320 They've actually like allowed you to talk like human words. 0:16:29.880 --> 0:16:33.200 But it feels like the Times, the Post both well, 0:16:33.400 --> 0:16:35.720 New York Post has a voice, just not a nice one. 0:16:36.040 --> 0:16:40.760 Washington Post even Business Insider has experimented with the discourse thing, 0:16:40.800 --> 0:16:42.440 which I do right for sort of guess contraction. 0:16:42.600 --> 0:16:45.520 You're describing much more successful reporters than I am, by 0:16:45.520 --> 0:16:46.320 the way, as I reached. 0:16:47.160 --> 0:16:49.440 But Morning Brew, I like Morning Brew, even though the 0:16:49.560 --> 0:16:53.360 video stuff rankles me a little bit that I cream jeezy, 0:16:53.800 --> 0:16:56.240 But it's just we're in this weird point now, and 0:16:56.280 --> 0:16:58.360 I think ads comes into this as well, where I'm 0:16:58.360 --> 0:17:00.280 not sure anyone in the media and those the fuck 0:17:00.320 --> 0:17:03.040 to do business buddle wise, I think everyone's a bit scared. 0:17:06.040 --> 0:17:08.920 I just want to report the news exactly, want to 0:17:08.920 --> 0:17:10.840 get like, yeah, I don't know, I have the timid, 0:17:10.920 --> 0:17:14.159 cowardly reporters attitude towards this, you know. So my my 0:17:14.240 --> 0:17:18.320 beat primarily is advertisers, right. There is a cottage industry 0:17:18.560 --> 0:17:25.360 of ad tech companies that actively or inactively prevent advertisers 0:17:25.400 --> 0:17:29.160 from appearing in news publishers. Really, there was a there's 0:17:29.200 --> 0:17:30.880 a whole culture around. 0:17:30.680 --> 0:17:32.680 Like a Jezebel article about this field. 0:17:32.880 --> 0:17:36.880 Yeah, it's these these brand safety companies. There's a whole 0:17:36.880 --> 0:17:42.359 cottage industry around, and the example that everyone uses in 0:17:42.400 --> 0:17:45.160 the industry is that if I'm United Airlines or Jet 0:17:45.200 --> 0:17:48.000 Blue or whoever, I don't want to run my ad 0:17:48.200 --> 0:17:50.520 next to a story about a plane crash. 0:17:50.680 --> 0:17:50.840 Right. 0:17:51.000 --> 0:17:54.920 You can see why that's a competable. But I think 0:17:54.960 --> 0:17:58.800 the industry several years ago this is not necessarily the 0:17:59.119 --> 0:18:03.159 interest in this tech has weaned, but the industry internalized 0:18:03.320 --> 0:18:07.560 that United Airlines example as I don't ever want to 0:18:07.600 --> 0:18:11.040 be in your news at all because that is a negative. 0:18:10.720 --> 0:18:12.719 Environment, right, and can't control it. 0:18:12.920 --> 0:18:15.080 Right, Exactly, you can't control it, and they shouldn't be 0:18:15.119 --> 0:18:15.720 able to control it. 0:18:15.800 --> 0:18:15.960 Right. 0:18:16.000 --> 0:18:18.600 Advertisers shouldn't have a say on what's on the front 0:18:18.640 --> 0:18:21.719 page of a newspaper. And the report to that is 0:18:22.640 --> 0:18:26.720 I have never thought differently about an advertiser based on 0:18:26.800 --> 0:18:28.800 the content it's next to. I don't think that's how 0:18:28.960 --> 0:18:34.800 humans think. It fails any critical thinking. And yet these 0:18:34.840 --> 0:18:36.240 are billion dollar companies. 0:18:36.440 --> 0:18:38.600 I and this is a very better offline thought. But 0:18:38.680 --> 0:18:40.520 a lot of that is the people making those decisions 0:18:40.560 --> 0:18:42.640 don't read the news anyway, so they just like, well, 0:18:42.680 --> 0:18:45.120 I this this thing I've made up is very scary, 0:18:45.960 --> 0:18:46.480 I think. 0:18:46.560 --> 0:18:50.920 Or they think consumers are kind of dumb, which I 0:18:50.960 --> 0:18:52.879 don't think is fair. I don't think that's accurate, but 0:18:52.920 --> 0:18:55.080 I think that's I think that's in the sense. 0:18:55.160 --> 0:18:58.720 And it also just suggests they haven't talked to consumers 0:18:59.119 --> 0:19:01.719 like that. It feels like you could ask someone and 0:19:01.760 --> 0:19:05.040 so thematically, though kind of want to explain to listeners 0:19:05.040 --> 0:19:07.600 why I've had Brian on of in fact your marvelous 0:19:07.600 --> 0:19:09.639 at This is the reason I talk about ads so 0:19:09.720 --> 0:19:11.959 much is it's kind of something you said earlier. Google's 0:19:11.960 --> 0:19:14.760 what nine out of ten of all digital transactions, though, 0:19:14.840 --> 0:19:17.480 advertising is this annoying thing that everyone hates and complains about. 0:19:17.560 --> 0:19:19.760 It is the reason everything goes like there's ads on 0:19:19.760 --> 0:19:22.400 this show that adds on every website, every single publication 0:19:22.400 --> 0:19:24.240 you read has a bunch of ads, banner ads, whatever, 0:19:24.320 --> 0:19:27.760 video and everyone has been trying to work out how 0:19:27.800 --> 0:19:29.000 not to do that for some time. 0:19:29.960 --> 0:19:32.280 And I think it's how the Internet exists. It's how 0:19:32.280 --> 0:19:35.040 the Internet makes money. That's like the way I try 0:19:35.080 --> 0:19:37.159 to and I think this is me stylizing it, but 0:19:37.240 --> 0:19:40.320 it is how the Internet is monetized through ads. 0:19:40.359 --> 0:19:40.679 Baby. 0:19:40.720 --> 0:19:44.160 Google is an advertising business. Meta is an advertising business. 0:19:44.200 --> 0:19:46.040 TikTok It's an advertising business. 0:19:46.200 --> 0:19:48.639 Is TikTok effective. Do ID buyers actually like it? 0:19:49.400 --> 0:19:52.760 Uh? Yeah, absolutely, they love it. They wish it wasn't Chinese, 0:19:53.000 --> 0:19:58.960 but they absolutely love it, and they're still there. They 0:19:59.280 --> 0:20:02.680 still have a very large presence, even though obviously it's 0:20:02.720 --> 0:20:06.480