1 00:00:02,480 --> 00:00:03,560 Speaker 1: Also media. 2 00:00:05,160 --> 00:00:07,480 Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to Better Offline. I'm the single most 3 00:00:07,640 --> 00:00:10,280 Speaker 2: punished individual alive. My name is Ed Zitron. I'm your 4 00:00:10,320 --> 00:00:25,479 Speaker 2: host today. I'm joined by Ryan Barwick of Morning Brew 5 00:00:25,600 --> 00:00:27,840 Speaker 2: and Marketing Bruce specifically, of course, Ryan, thank you for 6 00:00:27,920 --> 00:00:28,320 Speaker 2: joining me. 7 00:00:28,440 --> 00:00:29,760 Speaker 1: Hey man, what's up? How's it going? 8 00:00:30,160 --> 00:00:33,240 Speaker 2: We are in the beautiful New York studios of iHeartRadio, 9 00:00:33,400 --> 00:00:35,960 Speaker 2: Daniel Goodman of course producing Live with Us, live to tape, 10 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:38,920 Speaker 2: of course, and Ryan's here to talk to me about advertising. 11 00:00:39,400 --> 00:00:41,760 Speaker 2: And we're going to start somewhere fairly obvious, which is, 12 00:00:42,479 --> 00:00:45,440 Speaker 2: what is the kind of status of the Google Ads 13 00:00:45,479 --> 00:00:47,120 Speaker 2: antitrust case? Where are we at? 14 00:00:48,080 --> 00:00:53,640 Speaker 1: Yeah? I spent in September. I spent two weeks in Alexandria, Virginia, 15 00:00:53,880 --> 00:00:59,560 Speaker 1: sexy Alexander, sitting on a wooden bench, listening to hours 16 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:04,720 Speaker 1: and hours of economists explaining auction bidding. I know you're 17 00:01:04,840 --> 00:01:05,880 Speaker 1: very that. 18 00:01:05,800 --> 00:01:08,360 Speaker 2: This is no, but seriously actually explain on. 19 00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:11,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, no, no, I mean it was. I got a 20 00:01:11,120 --> 00:01:13,640 Speaker 1: noseblade halfway through it because it was at times very 21 00:01:13,720 --> 00:01:18,759 Speaker 1: dull but also very exciting. Essentially, the DOJ is arguing 22 00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:23,360 Speaker 1: that Google doesn't just have a monopoly on digital advertising, 23 00:01:23,360 --> 00:01:26,640 Speaker 1: but they own the entire supply chain, right, So Google 24 00:01:26,680 --> 00:01:29,640 Speaker 1: owns the software that publishers used to like the New 25 00:01:29,720 --> 00:01:32,679 Speaker 1: York Times of the Wall Street Journal, to run ads 26 00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:36,720 Speaker 1: on their website and to monetize their content. Google also 27 00:01:36,840 --> 00:01:40,160 Speaker 1: owns or monopoly has a monopoly on the software that 28 00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:44,520 Speaker 1: advertisers are using to to reach those audiences on the 29 00:01:44,520 --> 00:01:47,000 Speaker 1: New York Times in the Wall Street Journal. And in 30 00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:50,840 Speaker 1: between those two pieces of software, there's this auction software. 31 00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:54,680 Speaker 1: There's a bidding platform, and Google also owns that, right, 32 00:01:54,760 --> 00:01:58,160 Speaker 1: So they own every piece of The DOJ is alleging 33 00:01:58,600 --> 00:02:03,760 Speaker 1: that they own every piece of supply chain, and they really, 34 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:06,160 Speaker 1: I mean, at one point the DOJ said Google sees 35 00:02:06,520 --> 00:02:10,840 Speaker 1: I think nine out of every ten digital transaction. So 36 00:02:10,840 --> 00:02:12,920 Speaker 1: that's that's pretty large, right, That's a lot of them. 37 00:02:13,080 --> 00:02:17,320 Speaker 1: That's pretty big. And it was fascinating over the course 38 00:02:17,320 --> 00:02:19,119 Speaker 1: of two weeks. I was only there for two weeks. 39 00:02:19,160 --> 00:02:20,639 Speaker 1: I believe it went on for a little bit more 40 00:02:20,680 --> 00:02:23,760 Speaker 1: than three. We kind of got a history of ad tech, 41 00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:30,600 Speaker 1: which is this incredibly complex, incredibly dense, incredibly dorky industry 42 00:02:31,120 --> 00:02:33,560 Speaker 1: to just kind of explain how the Internet makes money. 43 00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:36,640 Speaker 1: And Google has been on the receiving end of a 44 00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:40,560 Speaker 1: lot of those advertising dollars, of those ad budgets, and 45 00:02:40,600 --> 00:02:45,080 Speaker 1: it's fascinating. So we had the Monday before Thanksgiving, we 46 00:02:45,120 --> 00:02:47,880 Speaker 1: had closing arguments, which is where the DOJ and Google 47 00:02:47,919 --> 00:02:52,000 Speaker 1: get to make their final stand before the judge and 48 00:02:52,080 --> 00:02:55,120 Speaker 1: make their arguments. The DJ again just kind of pointed 49 00:02:55,160 --> 00:02:57,360 Speaker 1: to Google size. 50 00:02:57,160 --> 00:02:59,720 Speaker 2: And that they own every single part of the stack. 51 00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:02,959 Speaker 1: Right, or certainly the most successful parts of the stack. 52 00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:07,640 Speaker 1: And then Google essentially countered by saying, look, we're really 53 00:03:07,639 --> 00:03:10,200 Speaker 1: good at what we do, and it's hard to argue 54 00:03:10,240 --> 00:03:12,639 Speaker 1: with them in the sense that they have so much 55 00:03:12,760 --> 00:03:16,400 Speaker 1: data that they can monetize these things really efficiently. Because 56 00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:18,440 Speaker 1: they see so much, they can get really good at it. 57 00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:21,000 Speaker 2: It feels like the argument that would be, well, you 58 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:23,600 Speaker 2: have all this data from the monopolies you're doing, so 59 00:03:23,639 --> 00:03:25,440 Speaker 2: I'm guessing that's kind of how the DJ came in it. 60 00:03:25,639 --> 00:03:28,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, yes, And and it was interesting on the first 61 00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:33,279 Speaker 1: day the DOJ said, you have all of these advertisers, 62 00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:36,400 Speaker 1: but we never really delve delved into why they have 63 00:03:36,440 --> 00:03:39,680 Speaker 1: so many advertisers. YouTube was almost never mentioned during the 64 00:03:39,720 --> 00:03:44,640 Speaker 1: case Gmail Chrome right. Obviously, there's a much sexier trial 65 00:03:45,080 --> 00:03:49,440 Speaker 1: that that is still ongoing. Well has already Amy has 66 00:03:49,440 --> 00:03:52,080 Speaker 1: already reached its conclusion. The real heads were at the 67 00:03:52,080 --> 00:03:54,680 Speaker 1: attack trial I like to see. The real dorks were 68 00:03:54,720 --> 00:03:59,800 Speaker 1: at the much more complex and boring trial. So that 69 00:03:59,880 --> 00:04:04,680 Speaker 1: wasn't really necessarily touched on, and again it will be 70 00:04:04,720 --> 00:04:07,480 Speaker 1: really interesting. One thing that I kind of took away 71 00:04:07,560 --> 00:04:09,440 Speaker 1: from the trial, and this is called like the it's 72 00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:11,640 Speaker 1: it's a rocket docket, so it happens really quickly. We 73 00:04:11,880 --> 00:04:15,400 Speaker 1: could find out before Christmas or even in early January, 74 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:20,760 Speaker 1: what decision the judge has reached. But one thing that 75 00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:23,920 Speaker 1: I really took away from it is that the DOJ 76 00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:29,279 Speaker 1: was basically pointing out issues or decisions Google made to 77 00:04:29,360 --> 00:04:33,440 Speaker 1: maintain a monopoly, things that had happened ten years ago, 78 00:04:33,520 --> 00:04:36,359 Speaker 1: things that had happened twelve years ago in some instances. 79 00:04:36,400 --> 00:04:39,760 Speaker 1: So Google does something and the industry has to respond, 80 00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:43,120 Speaker 1: and then Google does another thing. Can you give an example, Well, 81 00:04:43,160 --> 00:04:46,760 Speaker 1: there are these, you know strategies. One was called like 82 00:04:47,000 --> 00:04:50,400 Speaker 1: last look, where Google would get the last look at 83 00:04:50,440 --> 00:04:53,080 Speaker 1: a bid between an advertiser and I Jason. 84 00:04:53,680 --> 00:04:55,919 Speaker 2: Jason brought that up on a previous like the idea 85 00:04:55,920 --> 00:04:57,760 Speaker 2: that like right then they go and we can just 86 00:04:57,800 --> 00:04:58,800 Speaker 2: bid under them. 87 00:04:58,640 --> 00:05:02,240 Speaker 1: Right exactly, so so then that Google would do that right, 88 00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:04,640 Speaker 1: and then the industry would try to work around that, 89 00:05:06,200 --> 00:05:09,039 Speaker 1: and ultimately things have reached kind of a I don't 90 00:05:09,080 --> 00:05:11,839 Speaker 1: know if copasatic is the correct term. Things have kind 91 00:05:11,839 --> 00:05:15,320 Speaker 1: of leveled out there, especially as advertisers are more drawn 92 00:05:15,400 --> 00:05:19,200 Speaker 1: to like streaming platforms. They're more drawn to a platform 93 00:05:19,240 --> 00:05:23,279 Speaker 1: like a TikTok or a Twitter social media platforms, you know, 94 00:05:24,040 --> 00:05:27,120 Speaker 1: Banner ads are kind of like I think among most buyers, 95 00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:30,320 Speaker 1: are kind of like the least sexy version of advertising, 96 00:05:30,320 --> 00:05:32,480 Speaker 1: can you Yeah, I think the common frame like, can 97 00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:34,440 Speaker 1: you name any banner ad you've ever seen? 98 00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:39,320 Speaker 2: Only that McDonald's one from like twenty years ago where 99 00:05:39,320 --> 00:05:40,159 Speaker 2: it said I'd hit that. 100 00:05:40,800 --> 00:05:41,400 Speaker 1: Okay, there we go. 101 00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:44,240 Speaker 2: That was a great ad. I've never fucked a burger, 102 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:45,919 Speaker 2: but I've thought about it for at least a second, 103 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:49,640 Speaker 2: so but never letting me correct. And it's my question 104 00:05:49,760 --> 00:05:53,440 Speaker 2: is is that kind of advertising dying? Is ban a 105 00:05:53,480 --> 00:05:57,320 Speaker 2: traditional that kind of media dying? Is it being replaced 106 00:05:57,360 --> 00:06:00,000 Speaker 2: or is it just cheaper and shittya? 107 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:02,320 Speaker 1: You would hope it doesn't die because that is the 108 00:06:02,360 --> 00:06:04,280 Speaker 1: kind of advertar. Yeah, that a lot of publishers. 109 00:06:04,279 --> 00:06:06,080 Speaker 2: I wasn't asking because I wanted it to happen. 110 00:06:05,920 --> 00:06:09,000 Speaker 1: Right, that a lot of publishers use, right, And obviously 111 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:12,640 Speaker 1: publishers have shifted to try to get subscriptions. I don't 112 00:06:12,640 --> 00:06:14,839 Speaker 1: know if I'd go as far as saying it's dying, 113 00:06:14,880 --> 00:06:17,280 Speaker 1: but the budgets are definitely shifted, and in the same 114 00:06:17,320 --> 00:06:22,280 Speaker 1: way that linear television is losing viewers every year and 115 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:24,680 Speaker 1: people are adopting like streaming platforms. 116 00:06:24,760 --> 00:06:24,960 Speaker 2: Right. 117 00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:28,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's just it's it's not as interesting, it's not 118 00:06:28,279 --> 00:06:31,960 Speaker 1: as sexy, and I do not know to kind of 119 00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:34,279 Speaker 1: tie the knot here. I don't know what kind of 120 00:06:35,080 --> 00:06:38,800 Speaker 1: remedy might solve that. Like, if Google's forced to sell 121 00:06:39,160 --> 00:06:42,960 Speaker 1: it's auction software, it's exchange, what does that do? 122 00:06:43,120 --> 00:06:45,919 Speaker 2: Like double click? Just they finally they after buying it, 123 00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:48,520 Speaker 2: they just sell it again. Couldn't they sell access to 124 00:06:48,520 --> 00:06:50,440 Speaker 2: the data, because that's kind of what they're suggesting with 125 00:06:50,480 --> 00:06:52,760 Speaker 2: the search remedies listeners if you didn't know part of 126 00:06:52,800 --> 00:06:55,159 Speaker 2: the suggested remedies, and the government been selling Chrome, which 127 00:06:55,160 --> 00:06:57,720 Speaker 2: I'm going there on, but they're saying that they would 128 00:06:57,720 --> 00:07:01,400 Speaker 2: allow other search engines to access Google's to them. Now, 129 00:07:01,560 --> 00:07:02,800 Speaker 2: could a similar thing happen with. 130 00:07:02,720 --> 00:07:08,920 Speaker 1: This, but yeah, I don't really know, Like the bitstreams 131 00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:12,320 Speaker 1: here is so complex, there's so many players involved, I 132 00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:15,720 Speaker 1: don't entirely know what that would look like, and I 133 00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:18,920 Speaker 1: think that's part of the I'm sure Google's lawyers and 134 00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:22,000 Speaker 1: the DJ's lawyers are wrestling over this kind of stuff, 135 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:24,640 Speaker 1: but you definitely got the sense, at least from the 136 00:07:25,960 --> 00:07:29,480 Speaker 1: However many reporters were there, that this stuff is so 137 00:07:29,520 --> 00:07:32,760 Speaker 1: weedy and so complex that I don't know how much 138 00:07:32,800 --> 00:07:34,440 Speaker 1: of it is. Ultimately, I don't know what kind of 139 00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:38,680 Speaker 1: remedies ultimately alleviate the concerns in the industry. Certainly many 140 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:42,480 Speaker 1: people feel like Google is a monopoly, but I'm not 141 00:07:42,640 --> 00:07:47,080 Speaker 1: entirely sure where else they would take their dollar. But again, 142 00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:48,600 Speaker 1: part of that is because Google is. 143 00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:50,240 Speaker 2: Because there's never been another option. 144 00:07:50,440 --> 00:07:50,560 Speaker 3: Right. 145 00:07:50,600 --> 00:07:52,440 Speaker 2: It kind of makes me think of Facebook as well, 146 00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:55,680 Speaker 2: because I know that there's I have they done an 147 00:07:55,680 --> 00:07:58,080 Speaker 2: anti trust case against them? I forget, but I know 148 00:07:58,160 --> 00:07:59,680 Speaker 2: the argument is that they have a monopoly of a 149 00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:04,239 Speaker 2: social media which is true. But breaking up these companies 150 00:08:04,280 --> 00:08:06,680 Speaker 2: seems I want them to do it, they need to 151 00:08:06,680 --> 00:08:08,200 Speaker 2: do it, but I just have no idea how they 152 00:08:08,200 --> 00:08:11,520 Speaker 2: could postbly like they're so deeply embedded in every corner 153 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:14,280 Speaker 2: of every part of the Internet at this point, I 154 00:08:14,320 --> 00:08:15,720 Speaker 2: just don't know how practical that would be. 155 00:08:15,840 --> 00:08:18,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, it was interesting Google brought up on the last 156 00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:21,520 Speaker 1: day of the trial. They brought up Microsoft as its competitor. Look, 157 00:08:21,640 --> 00:08:26,640 Speaker 1: Microsoft has Xbox. That's inventory that Google doesn't have access to. 158 00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:30,040 Speaker 1: That's an advantage Microsoft has over Google. I don't think 159 00:08:30,080 --> 00:08:33,320 Speaker 1: I've ever met a media buyer that has ever said, well, 160 00:08:33,400 --> 00:08:35,720 Speaker 1: that Xbox inventory really. 161 00:08:35,559 --> 00:08:37,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, we've got to make sure we're on a right. 162 00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:40,160 Speaker 1: Right so like or the Microsoft has made a lot 163 00:08:40,160 --> 00:08:42,680 Speaker 1: of inrows with retailers, for example. 164 00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:44,480 Speaker 2: Haven't Microsoft been trying to do ads for years and 165 00:08:44,520 --> 00:08:46,160 Speaker 2: never really made it? Well, they make it like a 166 00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:47,000 Speaker 2: billion from being. 167 00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:52,599 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, they have a very successful business around it, 168 00:08:52,640 --> 00:08:55,280 Speaker 1: but it's certainly not It's not Google a juggernaut like 169 00:08:55,280 --> 00:08:56,560 Speaker 1: a Google or an Amazon. 170 00:08:56,640 --> 00:08:59,560 Speaker 2: And for context listeners, I think what a billion in 171 00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:03,120 Speaker 2: revenue compared to several hundred billion from its the. 172 00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:05,280 Speaker 1: Google makes forty billion a quarter. 173 00:09:05,679 --> 00:09:10,439 Speaker 2: King is christ But there was one story I did 174 00:09:10,440 --> 00:09:12,120 Speaker 2: want to talk to you about that you wrote back 175 00:09:12,120 --> 00:09:14,120 Speaker 2: in September that we've talked about a few times. So 176 00:09:14,160 --> 00:09:16,719 Speaker 2: this Facebook ads story because I actually think that this 177 00:09:16,800 --> 00:09:19,720 Speaker 2: may be a story that gets bigger and bigger. But 178 00:09:20,040 --> 00:09:21,719 Speaker 2: he wrote this story about he talked to a few 179 00:09:21,760 --> 00:09:25,080 Speaker 2: ad buyers with Facebook and that Facebook's ads platform is 180 00:09:25,360 --> 00:09:27,240 Speaker 2: kind of broken. Can you go into that bit? 181 00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:31,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, this is something I noticed on Twitter or I 182 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:32,079 Speaker 1: guess we call it X now. 183 00:09:32,440 --> 00:09:36,480 Speaker 2: I don't he dead names trans people. I'm dead naming Twitter. 184 00:09:36,600 --> 00:09:40,920 Speaker 1: There you go. They're essentially buyers were saying, hey, so 185 00:09:41,320 --> 00:09:44,840 Speaker 1: there are advertisers, but advertisers aren't pulling the levers. Usually 186 00:09:44,840 --> 00:09:47,480 Speaker 1: advertisers go to ad agencies and the ad agencies. I 187 00:09:47,480 --> 00:09:50,760 Speaker 1: don't know if your audience cares necessarily about that the alligation, 188 00:09:51,760 --> 00:09:53,960 Speaker 1: but I saw a bunch of buyers saying, hey, you know, 189 00:09:54,040 --> 00:09:57,400 Speaker 1: we we had ten thousand dollars disappear. We put it 190 00:09:57,480 --> 00:10:02,040 Speaker 1: into into meta and it poof, it disappeared. It's gone. 191 00:10:02,520 --> 00:10:04,560 Speaker 1: We don't know what happened to it. And you know, 192 00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:06,559 Speaker 1: one guy saying that it's like, okay, maybe that is 193 00:10:06,600 --> 00:10:08,520 Speaker 1: a bug. But then when you talk to eight media 194 00:10:08,559 --> 00:10:12,160 Speaker 1: buyers and they all say since roughly January that the 195 00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:15,160 Speaker 1: platform has become really wonky, that there are a lot 196 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:18,280 Speaker 1: of hurdles to overcome wonky how bugs. 197 00:10:18,400 --> 00:10:18,880 Speaker 2: Essentially. 198 00:10:19,120 --> 00:10:24,040 Speaker 1: Like again, someone in add tech described these advertising platforms 199 00:10:24,080 --> 00:10:25,640 Speaker 1: like a Google like we were talking about, or a 200 00:10:25,679 --> 00:10:27,920 Speaker 1: meta describe them that like, I shouldn't think about them 201 00:10:27,960 --> 00:10:30,840 Speaker 1: as platforms, I should think about them as ATMs that like, 202 00:10:31,080 --> 00:10:34,200 Speaker 1: you put money in these machines and then maybe money 203 00:10:34,200 --> 00:10:36,040 Speaker 1: will come out, or at least you'll get a metric 204 00:10:36,080 --> 00:10:37,600 Speaker 1: that tells you you made. 205 00:10:37,480 --> 00:10:38,959 Speaker 2: A metric, which only they have. 206 00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:41,480 Speaker 1: Right exactly that they have decided for you. 207 00:10:42,280 --> 00:10:44,599 Speaker 2: And they are the ultimate auditor as well. 208 00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:48,280 Speaker 1: Right, yeah, they're essentially there are buyers would say that 209 00:10:48,320 --> 00:10:51,400 Speaker 1: these companies operate black boxes, right, that you can't really audit. 210 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:54,920 Speaker 1: But the black boxes do sell do hickeys and widgets, 211 00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:57,880 Speaker 1: right like people do buy stuff on Instagram and and 212 00:10:58,080 --> 00:11:03,400 Speaker 1: on Google and even on TikTok amazingly. But anyway, I 213 00:11:04,280 --> 00:11:06,240 Speaker 1: ended up talking to several buyers that were saying that 214 00:11:06,600 --> 00:11:08,800 Speaker 1: you know again, they would they would create a budget 215 00:11:08,800 --> 00:11:11,240 Speaker 1: and then out of nowhere, I want to advertise on 216 00:11:11,320 --> 00:11:13,320 Speaker 1: Instagram and then in the middle of the night at 217 00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:16,640 Speaker 1: three in the morning. The campaign only targeted people on 218 00:11:16,679 --> 00:11:20,280 Speaker 1: Facebook and only targeted eighty year old people on Facebook. Huh, 219 00:11:20,320 --> 00:11:22,440 Speaker 1: and it didn't really work. And again, when you have 220 00:11:22,520 --> 00:11:26,000 Speaker 1: so many people saying that that's what they encountered, that 221 00:11:25,880 --> 00:11:28,800 Speaker 1: the platform wasn't really working the way they had expected 222 00:11:28,800 --> 00:11:32,559 Speaker 1: to or the way it intended, and Meta essentially was 223 00:11:32,600 --> 00:11:34,800 Speaker 1: saying kick rocks, like there's nothing we can do. 224 00:11:34,960 --> 00:11:37,199 Speaker 2: Would meant to not to have that money or anything. 225 00:11:38,200 --> 00:11:40,640 Speaker 1: No, I believe at the time I was talking to people, 226 00:11:40,760 --> 00:11:43,280 Speaker 1: I don't think people had gotten credits yet. And as 227 00:11:43,320 --> 00:11:46,679 Speaker 1: they were saying this, Meta had its like best quarter ever. Right, 228 00:11:46,800 --> 00:11:52,319 Speaker 1: So MEDA doesn't necessarily need to help alleviate these small 229 00:11:52,440 --> 00:11:54,800 Speaker 1: kind of buyers, even though these people in many instances 230 00:11:54,880 --> 00:11:57,679 Speaker 1: are spending six figures on their advertising campaigns. 231 00:11:57,679 --> 00:11:59,800 Speaker 2: Breaking that down. So these media buyers then not just 232 00:12:00,040 --> 00:12:01,760 Speaker 2: of the listeners to break this down, so they're not 233 00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:05,000 Speaker 2: buying for like one company they represent, well like ten fifty. 234 00:12:04,840 --> 00:12:07,600 Speaker 1: They can they can work with ten brands they right, fifteen. 235 00:12:07,520 --> 00:12:10,560 Speaker 2: So they're like an agency of Soort exactly. So I 236 00:12:10,600 --> 00:12:13,680 Speaker 2: mean my thought, and that would be is how is 237 00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:16,560 Speaker 2: Meta making all that money? And it's just it's very 238 00:12:16,679 --> 00:12:19,520 Speaker 2: there's no just very basic thing. There's no other way 239 00:12:19,559 --> 00:12:21,840 Speaker 2: to advertise on these platforms, right, there's no other inroad 240 00:12:21,880 --> 00:12:24,800 Speaker 2: with Instagram or Facebook. Right, it's just this, Yes, that 241 00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:28,439 Speaker 2: is insane, that is bonkers. Like, did you hear from 242 00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:30,520 Speaker 2: Meta atal Did they get back to you? Yeah? 243 00:12:30,559 --> 00:12:34,720 Speaker 1: I mean I think they would say that advertisers love 244 00:12:34,840 --> 00:12:37,240 Speaker 1: meta right, great, and I think a lot of and 245 00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:39,200 Speaker 1: a lot of people, you know, a lot of buyers 246 00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:41,880 Speaker 1: will say, well it does work for them. Again sometimes 247 00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:45,360 Speaker 1: outside of like that's why TikTok has become so interesting 248 00:12:45,400 --> 00:12:49,800 Speaker 1: because TikTok kind of presents this third option where previously 249 00:12:49,840 --> 00:12:54,600 Speaker 1: you could really only spend on a meta. Snap obviously exists. 250 00:12:54,760 --> 00:12:58,840 Speaker 2: That company is not a good business. It never has been. 251 00:12:59,280 --> 00:13:00,800 Speaker 1: I loved in high school. 252 00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:02,240 Speaker 2: No, but that's the thing. It's like an app that 253 00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:04,679 Speaker 2: has uses, but when they tried to add the business stuff, 254 00:13:04,679 --> 00:13:07,360 Speaker 2: it just immediately like they're like, oh, this just spurns money. 255 00:13:07,480 --> 00:13:10,240 Speaker 1: Snap's interesting because they take over every industry event and 256 00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:12,520 Speaker 1: they always have such a presence, and yet I feel 257 00:13:12,520 --> 00:13:14,640 Speaker 1: like the story at least every time I talk to 258 00:13:14,640 --> 00:13:17,320 Speaker 1: people about Snap as a platform, I was getting Reddit 259 00:13:17,360 --> 00:13:19,520 Speaker 1: has impressed a lot of people lately. But again, it 260 00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:22,880 Speaker 1: wasn't until TikTok that people actually kind of raised eyebrows 261 00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:25,800 Speaker 1: about another platform giving them that it gives advertisers kind 262 00:13:25,800 --> 00:13:39,120 Speaker 1: of a diversity outside of just Meta and Instagram. 263 00:13:39,160 --> 00:13:41,160 Speaker 2: Maybe you can actually answer this going back to Snapchat. 264 00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:43,400 Speaker 2: Why isn't it? Is this stuff just not effective? But 265 00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:44,400 Speaker 2: that ads not good? 266 00:13:44,679 --> 00:13:47,720 Speaker 1: I don't know if I could necessarily speak to that. Okay, 267 00:13:47,760 --> 00:13:51,440 Speaker 1: I'm always looking for like a broader picture, and for. 268 00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:53,800 Speaker 2: Me in a qualitative one is just like what people 269 00:13:53,880 --> 00:13:55,600 Speaker 2: saying stuff? Or is it just not that effective? 270 00:13:55,640 --> 00:13:58,199 Speaker 1: I say, it's just not that like interesting, Like I 271 00:13:58,240 --> 00:14:00,320 Speaker 1: don't think that. Every time I ask people about that, 272 00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:03,839 Speaker 1: I don't get that many interesting answers. It's Reddit is fascinating. 273 00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:06,360 Speaker 1: Reddit is like the wild West of the Internet, and 274 00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:07,920 Speaker 1: I use Reddit constantly. 275 00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:10,599 Speaker 2: We've got the better Offline Reddit full of various criminals 276 00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:12,199 Speaker 2: and it's great. 277 00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:13,600 Speaker 1: Do you see a lot of ads there? 278 00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:17,319 Speaker 2: I move past them with the speed of pegasi. You've 279 00:14:17,320 --> 00:14:19,840 Speaker 2: got the trained Yeah, I've just like old school hit 280 00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:23,120 Speaker 2: just like no, just my brain removes it. 281 00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:24,760 Speaker 1: Do you do that with newsletters too? 282 00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:25,640 Speaker 2: Yeah? 283 00:14:25,840 --> 00:14:27,880 Speaker 1: See, I feel like this is the thing. I'm curious 284 00:14:27,880 --> 00:14:29,960 Speaker 1: how this evolves as the dorkiest conversation. 285 00:14:30,440 --> 00:14:32,320 Speaker 2: What this is better offline? We have the dorkiest. 286 00:14:32,720 --> 00:14:34,800 Speaker 1: I'm curious in five to ten years, like and I 287 00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:37,920 Speaker 1: work at a newsletter company, but I'm curious if in 288 00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:39,720 Speaker 1: five to ten years people aren't even going to look 289 00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:42,200 Speaker 1: at newsletter ads because we've just trained the behavior to 290 00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:45,160 Speaker 1: so look away, to know exactly when to skip. 291 00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:47,680 Speaker 2: I've done test ads of like mates products like I 292 00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:50,160 Speaker 2: don't no one will pay me for an ad other 293 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:54,000 Speaker 2: than this podcast that will humiliate me by trying to 294 00:14:54,040 --> 00:14:56,840 Speaker 2: celluate I software, which everyone loves to tell me about. 295 00:14:57,080 --> 00:14:59,080 Speaker 2: But like with the news letters, people do click, people 296 00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:01,760 Speaker 2: do engage, and I found that across the board, and 297 00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:05,160 Speaker 2: my general view is right now is newsletter companies are 298 00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:07,840 Speaker 2: actually gonna do better. I don't. Do you remember back 299 00:15:07,880 --> 00:15:09,880 Speaker 2: in like twenty twenty one, when every publication was like, 300 00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:12,400 Speaker 2: we have to do newsletters now, and then they immediately 301 00:15:12,480 --> 00:15:15,680 Speaker 2: junked it three months later. It just feels insane because 302 00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:18,160 Speaker 2: that feels far more the future than any kind of 303 00:15:18,160 --> 00:15:22,239 Speaker 2: subscription product like subscribe, Like The Verge has a subscription 304 00:15:22,320 --> 00:15:25,240 Speaker 2: product now, and it sucks, like I get what they 305 00:15:25,280 --> 00:15:27,200 Speaker 2: have to do it because money. Things cost money, But 306 00:15:27,640 --> 00:15:30,960 Speaker 2: it just feels that that the whole media industry right now, 307 00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:33,240 Speaker 2: needs to work out a way to connect with the readers, 308 00:15:33,240 --> 00:15:35,920 Speaker 2: and it feels like their email address is good, it's 309 00:15:35,960 --> 00:15:36,840 Speaker 2: like a good place for it. 310 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:39,960 Speaker 1: That's where I want. A New York magazine launched an app, 311 00:15:40,280 --> 00:15:43,080 Speaker 1: and I want it to succeed. I love an app. 312 00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:46,880 Speaker 1: They launched an app. They created an app as if 313 00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:50,000 Speaker 1: it's you know, the iPad era of news whatever, but 314 00:15:50,040 --> 00:15:53,120 Speaker 1: like an app for the an app that didn't magazine 315 00:15:54,040 --> 00:15:56,000 Speaker 1: apparently not or they didn't put a lot of resources 316 00:15:56,000 --> 00:15:57,560 Speaker 1: behind it, And I think that's great. I hope it 317 00:15:57,600 --> 00:15:59,920 Speaker 1: makes money. But I just want a newsletter, and they do. 318 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:03,000 Speaker 1: They've got amazing newsletters. Yeah, I'll take another newsletter. I'll 319 00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:04,400 Speaker 1: read something else from New York Max. 320 00:16:04,480 --> 00:16:07,240 Speaker 2: So this is no completely different subject, but it's my 321 00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:10,960 Speaker 2: damn show. The thing that I've been really thinking about 322 00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:15,360 Speaker 2: right now with the media is the this objectivity problem 323 00:16:15,400 --> 00:16:17,320 Speaker 2: where everyone has to be objective, but it also feels 324 00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:19,480 Speaker 2: like every outlet is trying to suck the life out 325 00:16:19,480 --> 00:16:23,880 Speaker 2: of the reporters, not like literally but no personality, no voice. 326 00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:26,560 Speaker 2: Morning Brew actually does a pretty good job with that. 327 00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:29,320 Speaker 2: They've actually like allowed you to talk like human words. 328 00:16:29,880 --> 00:16:33,200 Speaker 2: But it feels like the Times, the Post both well, 329 00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:35,720 Speaker 2: New York Post has a voice, just not a nice one. 330 00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:40,760 Speaker 2: Washington Post even Business Insider has experimented with the discourse thing, 331 00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:42,440 Speaker 2: which I do right for sort of guess contraction. 332 00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:45,520 Speaker 1: You're describing much more successful reporters than I am, by 333 00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:46,320 Speaker 1: the way, as I reached. 334 00:16:47,160 --> 00:16:49,440 Speaker 2: But Morning Brew, I like Morning Brew, even though the 335 00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:53,360 Speaker 2: video stuff rankles me a little bit that I cream jeezy, 336 00:16:53,800 --> 00:16:56,240 Speaker 2: But it's just we're in this weird point now, and 337 00:16:56,280 --> 00:16:58,360 Speaker 2: I think ads comes into this as well, where I'm 338 00:16:58,360 --> 00:17:00,280 Speaker 2: not sure anyone in the media and those the fuck 339 00:17:00,320 --> 00:17:03,040 Speaker 2: to do business buddle wise, I think everyone's a bit scared. 340 00:17:06,040 --> 00:17:08,920 Speaker 1: I just want to report the news exactly, want to 341 00:17:08,920 --> 00:17:10,840 Speaker 1: get like, yeah, I don't know, I have the timid, 342 00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:14,159 Speaker 1: cowardly reporters attitude towards this, you know. So my my 343 00:17:14,240 --> 00:17:18,320 Speaker 1: beat primarily is advertisers, right. There is a cottage industry 344 00:17:18,560 --> 00:17:25,360 Speaker 1: of ad tech companies that actively or inactively prevent advertisers 345 00:17:25,400 --> 00:17:29,160 Speaker 1: from appearing in news publishers. Really, there was a there's 346 00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:30,880 Speaker 1: a whole culture around. 347 00:17:30,680 --> 00:17:32,680 Speaker 2: Like a Jezebel article about this field. 348 00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:36,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's these these brand safety companies. There's a whole 349 00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:42,359 Speaker 1: cottage industry around, and the example that everyone uses in 350 00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:45,160 Speaker 1: the industry is that if I'm United Airlines or Jet 351 00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:48,000 Speaker 1: Blue or whoever, I don't want to run my ad 352 00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:50,520 Speaker 1: next to a story about a plane crash. 353 00:17:50,680 --> 00:17:50,840 Speaker 3: Right. 354 00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:54,920 Speaker 1: You can see why that's a competable. But I think 355 00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:58,800 Speaker 1: the industry several years ago this is not necessarily the 356 00:17:59,119 --> 00:18:03,159 Speaker 1: interest in this tech has weaned, but the industry internalized 357 00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:07,560 Speaker 1: that United Airlines example as I don't ever want to 358 00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:11,040 Speaker 1: be in your news at all because that is a negative. 359 00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:12,719 Speaker 2: Environment, right, and can't control it. 360 00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:15,080 Speaker 1: Right, Exactly, you can't control it, and they shouldn't be 361 00:18:15,119 --> 00:18:15,720 Speaker 1: able to control it. 362 00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:15,960 Speaker 2: Right. 363 00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:18,600 Speaker 1: Advertisers shouldn't have a say on what's on the front 364 00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:21,719 Speaker 1: page of a newspaper. And the report to that is 365 00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:26,720 Speaker 1: I have never thought differently about an advertiser based on 366 00:18:26,800 --> 00:18:28,800 Speaker 1: the content it's next to. I don't think that's how 367 00:18:28,960 --> 00:18:34,800 Speaker 1: humans think. It fails any critical thinking. And yet these 368 00:18:34,840 --> 00:18:36,240 Speaker 1: are billion dollar companies. 369 00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:38,600 Speaker 2: I and this is a very better offline thought. But 370 00:18:38,680 --> 00:18:40,520 Speaker 2: a lot of that is the people making those decisions 371 00:18:40,560 --> 00:18:42,640 Speaker 2: don't read the news anyway, so they just like, well, 372 00:18:42,680 --> 00:18:45,120 Speaker 2: I this this thing I've made up is very scary, 373 00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:46,480 Speaker 2: I think. 374 00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:50,920 Speaker 1: Or they think consumers are kind of dumb, which I 375 00:18:50,960 --> 00:18:52,879 Speaker 1: don't think is fair. I don't think that's accurate, but 376 00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:55,080 Speaker 1: I think that's I think that's in the sense. 377 00:18:55,160 --> 00:18:58,720 Speaker 2: And it also just suggests they haven't talked to consumers 378 00:18:59,119 --> 00:19:01,719 Speaker 2: like that. It feels like you could ask someone and 379 00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:05,040 Speaker 2: so thematically, though kind of want to explain to listeners 380 00:19:05,040 --> 00:19:07,600 Speaker 2: why I've had Brian on of in fact your marvelous 381 00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:09,639 Speaker 2: at This is the reason I talk about ads so 382 00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:11,959 Speaker 2: much is it's kind of something you said earlier. Google's 383 00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:14,760 Speaker 2: what nine out of ten of all digital transactions, though, 384 00:19:14,840 --> 00:19:17,480 Speaker 2: advertising is this annoying thing that everyone hates and complains about. 385 00:19:17,560 --> 00:19:19,760 Speaker 2: It is the reason everything goes like there's ads on 386 00:19:19,760 --> 00:19:22,400 Speaker 2: this show that adds on every website, every single publication 387 00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:24,240 Speaker 2: you read has a bunch of ads, banner ads, whatever, 388 00:19:24,320 --> 00:19:27,760 Speaker 2: video and everyone has been trying to work out how 389 00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:29,000 Speaker 2: not to do that for some time. 390 00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:32,280 Speaker 1: And I think it's how the Internet exists. It's how 391 00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:35,040 Speaker 1: the Internet makes money. That's like the way I try 392 00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:37,159 Speaker 1: to and I think this is me stylizing it, but 393 00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:40,320 Speaker 1: it is how the Internet is monetized through ads. 394 00:19:40,359 --> 00:19:40,679 Speaker 3: Baby. 395 00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:44,160 Speaker 1: Google is an advertising business. Meta is an advertising business. 396 00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:46,040 Speaker 1: TikTok It's an advertising business. 397 00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:48,639 Speaker 2: Is TikTok effective. Do ID buyers actually like it? 398 00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:52,760 Speaker 1: Uh? Yeah, absolutely, they love it. They wish it wasn't Chinese, 399 00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:58,960 Speaker 1: but they absolutely love it, and they're still there. They 400 00:19:59,280 --> 00:20:02,680 Speaker 1: still have a very large presence, even though obviously it's 401 00:20:02,720 --> 00:20:06,480 Speaker 1: been diluted a bit since the election. But even though 402 00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:08,720 Speaker 1: there is a threat that it could not there was 403 00:20:09,280 --> 00:20:11,040 Speaker 1: a threat that it could not exist. 404 00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:13,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, it doesn't seem like that. Seems like Trump's gonna 405 00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:17,800 Speaker 2: keep it now, which is very funny. It's just like, Okay, 406 00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:22,040 Speaker 2: I'm sinophobic, but not that. I It's interesting as well 407 00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:25,440 Speaker 2: because I feel like the news media could have I'm 408 00:20:25,440 --> 00:20:28,280 Speaker 2: not talking necessarily about Morning Bro. It feels like it's 409 00:20:28,280 --> 00:20:31,560 Speaker 2: an undiscussed thing that only a few years ago we 410 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:36,400 Speaker 2: had the first major online ad company pop up that 411 00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:39,440 Speaker 2: challenged any of the monopolies. Like the fact that TikTok 412 00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:42,840 Speaker 2: exists and just fucking popped up is insane to me 413 00:20:42,920 --> 00:20:45,240 Speaker 2: because it's relatively new, like what twenty eighteen, twenty nineteen, 414 00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:48,919 Speaker 2: I mean, various versions of it might existed before, and 415 00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:52,360 Speaker 2: it's interesting. It makes me wonder whether any other company 416 00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:54,320 Speaker 2: could spin up, just shove a bunch of money and 417 00:20:54,359 --> 00:20:55,040 Speaker 2: do the same thing. 418 00:20:56,000 --> 00:20:59,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it's I know this is something that 419 00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:01,880 Speaker 1: you've talked about a lot, but every time I go 420 00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:06,600 Speaker 1: on Facebook dot com, yeah, I think, man, there should 421 00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:10,479 Speaker 1: be cobwebs here. It doesn't look this isn't appealing to 422 00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:13,520 Speaker 1: me as a user. This is a couple of batshit 423 00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:16,159 Speaker 1: people I went to high school with kind of just 424 00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:20,280 Speaker 1: screaming in the grocery aisles. Yeah, and even Instagram, I 425 00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:23,040 Speaker 1: feel like has become that I'm speaking purely. 426 00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:25,199 Speaker 2: Oh no, no, I've said very similar things a lot 427 00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:28,800 Speaker 2: of times, and way more swear words. It's fine, It's 428 00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:32,840 Speaker 2: just really interesting and also kind of what pisses me 429 00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:34,680 Speaker 2: off about it. You don't have to agree. I can 430 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:38,640 Speaker 2: runt all the one. But is the cobwebs thing. It's 431 00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:41,240 Speaker 2: just like the products like they're ad companies and they've 432 00:21:41,320 --> 00:21:43,879 Speaker 2: just stopped pretending they're not. Like they're not pretending like, 433 00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:45,360 Speaker 2: oh yeah, we're going to connect you with your friends 434 00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:48,560 Speaker 2: your family's just like ego pig eat your slop. 435 00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:51,720 Speaker 1: Well, i'd say Meta has gone as so far as 436 00:21:51,760 --> 00:21:55,840 Speaker 1: to say we're actually not as interested in connecting you 437 00:21:55,920 --> 00:21:59,879 Speaker 1: with your friends. What about this seventies funk band video? 438 00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:03,880 Speaker 1: Would you like to see this content shown constantly. That's 439 00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:05,919 Speaker 1: my algorithm. I just get bands out of it, but 440 00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:09,280 Speaker 1: I get Steely Dan clips, which is cool, but that's 441 00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:12,520 Speaker 1: that's That is far from why I intend initially signed 442 00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:14,040 Speaker 1: up for the app because I wanted to see everyone 443 00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:14,960 Speaker 1: I went to high school with. 444 00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:18,119 Speaker 2: For a solid six month period, all I got was 445 00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:22,080 Speaker 2: these insane self defense things. It was just like three 446 00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:24,040 Speaker 2: second clips because they don't show you to click. They 447 00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:25,800 Speaker 2: want you to click on it, and it'd be like 448 00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:27,560 Speaker 2: how to stop a guy, and it would like you're 449 00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:30,800 Speaker 2: watching like this guy. If I did this, I would die, 450 00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:34,359 Speaker 2: like this is not useful information. And then a post 451 00:22:34,359 --> 00:22:37,320 Speaker 2: from three weeks ago, just from like a band that 452 00:22:37,359 --> 00:22:40,119 Speaker 2: I liked when I was twenty two years old, and 453 00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:42,800 Speaker 2: it's just it's such a strange product and TikTok is 454 00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:46,080 Speaker 2: extremely manipulative with their algorithm. Sure, but so it's meta, 455 00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:48,080 Speaker 2: but it also feels like more of a functional bit, 456 00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:51,000 Speaker 2: like a thing of use and enjoy. I find it horrible. 457 00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:53,640 Speaker 2: It upsets me. I'm too old, you find it horrible. 458 00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:56,840 Speaker 2: It's too much. I don't like him from scrolling, I 459 00:22:56,920 --> 00:22:59,680 Speaker 2: must be done, and like so I don't even like 460 00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:03,080 Speaker 2: scroll on my Instagram pictures anymore because there's so much crap. 461 00:23:03,119 --> 00:23:05,080 Speaker 2: You go like two scrolls and you've got an AD 462 00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:07,680 Speaker 2: for a mobile game that doesn't exist, and then an 463 00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:10,479 Speaker 2: AD for a direct to consumer like low car product. 464 00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:14,680 Speaker 2: I'm trying to be healthy, and it's just like discordant. 465 00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:17,439 Speaker 2: The whole thing just feels like very weird. And then 466 00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:19,639 Speaker 2: TikTok at least feels like, yeah, we're manipulating you, but 467 00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:20,879 Speaker 2: we've got fun thing. Look at this. 468 00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:23,800 Speaker 1: I love it. I find TikTok so. I don't want 469 00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:25,760 Speaker 1: to sound like a shrill, but I think in terms 470 00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:29,600 Speaker 1: of just like the algorithm as an entertainment platform, I 471 00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:32,679 Speaker 1: find it fascinating. And again I'm very dull and boring. 472 00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:35,520 Speaker 1: So I'm looking at travel to Paris. 473 00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:37,359 Speaker 2: Videos and cooking videos. I just get a lot of 474 00:23:37,359 --> 00:23:40,280 Speaker 2: cooking that's small representative of regular people. 475 00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:40,560 Speaker 3: Though. 476 00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:43,320 Speaker 2: You don't need to go like three levels deep of 477 00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:46,960 Speaker 2: irony to enjoy something. You don't need the brain rot 478 00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:49,119 Speaker 2: like and I need like extra brain. I need the 479 00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:53,359 Speaker 2: shit that is like a like the golden Siva looking 480 00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:56,040 Speaker 2: thing that says a type yes to affirm that you 481 00:23:56,080 --> 00:23:58,560 Speaker 2: have been affirmed. Like I'm like three levels deep. I'm 482 00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:00,879 Speaker 2: deeply unhappy, but you do normal stuff. 483 00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:03,720 Speaker 1: Well, I want my friends to send me the brain rots. 484 00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:05,080 Speaker 2: Right, That's how I curated. 485 00:24:05,359 --> 00:24:07,800 Speaker 1: I get the group chat now now my Twitter is 486 00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:09,080 Speaker 1: all brain rot That's how. 487 00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:12,080 Speaker 2: I like perfect and blue Sky. Blue Sky's yes, and 488 00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:13,880 Speaker 2: we're a pro blue sky platform. 489 00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:14,840 Speaker 1: You're you're on blue Sky. 490 00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:17,040 Speaker 2: I got one hundred and three thousand followers. I'm cooking. 491 00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:21,160 Speaker 2: I'm cooking. It's the best. And actually blue Sky's interesting 492 00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:23,040 Speaker 2: because I don't know how much time you spent on it. 493 00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:26,159 Speaker 2: But I've really been enjoying it and enjoying the posts 494 00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:28,080 Speaker 2: that are like, yeah, wow, I shared a link on 495 00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:31,040 Speaker 2: here and everyone saw it, just the insane. We are 496 00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:34,480 Speaker 2: beaten dogs, just like oh yeah yeah. I can see 497 00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:37,480 Speaker 2: the people I follow and there's not just a groper 498 00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:40,280 Speaker 2: in my reply telling telling me he's gonna bomb my 499 00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:42,439 Speaker 2: house or three different people. 500 00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:44,960 Speaker 1: You have a much larger presence than I do. I 501 00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:48,560 Speaker 1: have been going. I've been a b testing right it 502 00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:53,080 Speaker 1: works on Twitter, I don't know. I still feel like 503 00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:57,120 Speaker 1: I still get more among my very small pool there. 504 00:24:57,200 --> 00:24:59,200 Speaker 1: I feel like I still get more of a reaction, 505 00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:01,800 Speaker 1: and I've I feel like Twitter is more unhinged in 506 00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:05,280 Speaker 1: a way that I find pleasant. But to your point 507 00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:07,800 Speaker 1: about avoiding newsletter ads, I feel like I can now 508 00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:09,080 Speaker 1: just avoid. 509 00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:12,960 Speaker 2: I mean I've been. I was on the internet using 510 00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:15,680 Speaker 2: like usenet and v bullet and shit like I grew 511 00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:19,080 Speaker 2: up on gaming forums like oh nazi h. That's just 512 00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:22,640 Speaker 2: one of the many, many freaks that pops up on IRC. 513 00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:28,720 Speaker 2: They should be stopped in numerous ways. But X X 514 00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:31,720 Speaker 2: Twitter wherever we call it now is just it feels 515 00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:34,760 Speaker 2: like it's falling apart. Actually it's getting not even like 516 00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:38,560 Speaker 2: the cobweb feeling. It feels like being in like a 517 00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:42,400 Speaker 2: big lots which no one has been in for a while. 518 00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:45,840 Speaker 2: It's just there's just shit falling down. There's some weird 519 00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:47,800 Speaker 2: guy in the corner and he's saying some things. You 520 00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:50,240 Speaker 2: really don't want it. You don't want any business with him. 521 00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:53,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, it isn't quantified, but a lot of the ads 522 00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:56,399 Speaker 1: that I see now on x Twitter are now coming 523 00:25:56,400 --> 00:26:00,639 Speaker 1: from Google. They're coming from Yeah, they're coming from x 524 00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:04,479 Speaker 1: as a partnership with Google just for basic like open 525 00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:05,960 Speaker 1: programmatic advertising. 526 00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:08,879 Speaker 2: So just act oh they're in the hole, then no 527 00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:10,919 Speaker 2: they must be. Is that having to move on too? 528 00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:12,159 Speaker 2: Like a Google partnership. 529 00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:15,359 Speaker 1: Yeah, so so so like a lot of when I 530 00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:18,040 Speaker 1: was back home in Delaware where I'm from, right, Like 531 00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:20,760 Speaker 1: the ads I would see on Twitter were from like 532 00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:23,439 Speaker 1: the pizza parlor down the street, and I have to 533 00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:26,680 Speaker 1: assume the pizza parlor wasn't spending that is hundreds of 534 00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:28,240 Speaker 1: thousands of dollars advertising. 535 00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:30,200 Speaker 2: Do you think that's a bad sign for CKS? 536 00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:33,480 Speaker 1: Well, what's funny is I wrote a story about this. 537 00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:36,000 Speaker 1: What's funny is when I went to the brands that 538 00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:38,600 Speaker 1: were advertising there, I said, hey, you know you're advertising 539 00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:42,919 Speaker 1: on X. They said what? Oh no, they said, what's X? 540 00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:46,560 Speaker 1: This platform? It's just you know, it used to be 541 00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:49,600 Speaker 1: called Twitter. And they're like, no, we're we're on Google. 542 00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:51,840 Speaker 1: And I was like, well you have to go like 543 00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:53,760 Speaker 1: did you go in and did you click on the 544 00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:56,040 Speaker 1: X thing or whatever? And they're like no, well we 545 00:26:56,080 --> 00:26:59,040 Speaker 1: don't know how in the window mat Essentially, you know, 546 00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:02,800 Speaker 1: the Google algorithm believe that they can find cheap impressions 547 00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:04,520 Speaker 1: on X and that's what happened. 548 00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:07,199 Speaker 2: That feels like a bad sign for I'm sorry if 549 00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:10,439 Speaker 2: they if they are like the equivalent platform of like 550 00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:12,879 Speaker 2: they're gonna you know, they're going to add out Brain. 551 00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:15,359 Speaker 2: They're gonna add out Brain and Taboola. And as a listener, 552 00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:16,600 Speaker 2: if you don't know what out brain is, going to 553 00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:19,520 Speaker 2: CNN dot com scroll down to paid content and take 554 00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:22,000 Speaker 2: a look at that dog ship. Also, and I say 555 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:23,880 Speaker 2: this with respect to the many great reports at the Verge, 556 00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:26,480 Speaker 2: it's also on the Verge, which is disgusting. These things 557 00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:31,040 Speaker 2: are called chum boxes. They're cheap, usually affiliate marketing content. 558 00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:33,160 Speaker 2: You hear it on an upcoming episode. We're really gonna 559 00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:36,320 Speaker 2: get in the guts of them briefly and then punch them. 560 00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:38,800 Speaker 1: I believe it's Tabula. One of them has a partnership. 561 00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:41,320 Speaker 2: They do the definitely Outbrain on CNN. 562 00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:43,399 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, but one of them has a partner. I 563 00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:46,359 Speaker 1: believe it's Tabula. They have a partnership with Apple. They 564 00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:50,040 Speaker 1: do all the InApp advertising, or they were doing a 565 00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:52,879 Speaker 1: lot of the InApp advertising for AP. 566 00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:54,600 Speaker 2: Is it still content stuff? 567 00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:57,040 Speaker 1: I believe it's like Apple News And in. 568 00:27:56,920 --> 00:28:00,280 Speaker 2: A company, what does it say about a society that 569 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:03,439 Speaker 2: company makes money? They should be in the Stockade's not 570 00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:05,000 Speaker 2: in the stock market. It's disgusting. 571 00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:07,639 Speaker 1: But the look on my face is couldn't say no comment. 572 00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:10,240 Speaker 2: Now he has absolutely no opinions about this. Just to 573 00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:23,000 Speaker 2: be cleared, let's move on to another subject, which is 574 00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:25,359 Speaker 2: my favorite thing at the moment, which is so open 575 00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:29,399 Speaker 2: Ai and Perplexity, so perplexity generative AI powered search engine 576 00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:33,040 Speaker 2: too deeply unprofitable companies. Open Ai has been hinting Sarah 577 00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:35,440 Speaker 2: for Ila CFO, I believe, has been hinting that open 578 00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:38,120 Speaker 2: Ai would go into ads. And the response I've had 579 00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:41,040 Speaker 2: when I've said this is silly is yeah, they'll just 580 00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:44,520 Speaker 2: add ads. And it doesn't sound like you can just 581 00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:47,240 Speaker 2: add ads unless you just plug in Google, which I 582 00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:49,960 Speaker 2: don't think they're gonna do. It just doesn't feel possible. 583 00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:52,400 Speaker 2: Maybe it's possible, it doesn't feel like something they're going 584 00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:53,360 Speaker 2: to spin up overnight. 585 00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:57,960 Speaker 1: So Perplexity, which is obviously the competitor to open ai 586 00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:03,080 Speaker 1: and chat GBT, they they have started rolling out in 587 00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:06,400 Speaker 1: ads model. At the time, they wanted to charge people 588 00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:09,480 Speaker 1: fifty bucks a CPM, and that's very expensive. 589 00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:12,680 Speaker 2: And that's cost per mile. Thousand impressions. Thousand isn't uniques, 590 00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:14,520 Speaker 2: it's just thousand times this is shown. 591 00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:17,400 Speaker 1: And that that is about fifty bucks a CPM. Is 592 00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:20,560 Speaker 1: is what Netflix wanted to charge. Netflix being like the 593 00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:24,600 Speaker 1: most premium inventory you could buy, and Netflix had a 594 00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:27,240 Speaker 1: lower you know, like roughly thirty five. 595 00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:29,000 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, perplex. These don't good. 596 00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:32,680 Speaker 1: So so it's interesting that you do see these these 597 00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:38,680 Speaker 1: ai search companies dabbling with this. SEO advertising is like 598 00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:43,760 Speaker 1: light speed complex in terms of just like basic digital. 599 00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:46,000 Speaker 2: When do you say CEO advertising? What you specifically? 600 00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:49,320 Speaker 1: I mean advertising and search engines right there there it is. 601 00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:53,040 Speaker 1: It's almost like a totally different ballgame. It's a different category. 602 00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:56,760 Speaker 1: People that call themselves, you know, search engine advertisers. I 603 00:29:56,760 --> 00:30:00,000 Speaker 1: don't necessarily think they would consider themselves regular advertisers, right, 604 00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:02,960 Speaker 1: They're they're very uh, they've got a niche skill set 605 00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:06,320 Speaker 1: and they're really good at it, and and and forever 606 00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:11,480 Speaker 1: before Google did this overview answers. That's how Google would work. 607 00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:14,080 Speaker 1: You you could buy and bid on certain terms, right, 608 00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:18,680 Speaker 1: and then you'll link exactly. Uh And so long story short, 609 00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:22,520 Speaker 1: what does that look like for open AI's advertising business. 610 00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:24,920 Speaker 1: The thing I always go back to, and again this 611 00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:28,520 Speaker 1: is very broad strokes, but like my mom isn't using 612 00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:31,440 Speaker 1: a lot of the open ai products yet. And I 613 00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:36,840 Speaker 1: think advertisers, your your blue chip advertisers, your your your 614 00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:41,080 Speaker 1: bud lights, right, your your forwards. I I don't know 615 00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:44,640 Speaker 1: they're they're interested in scale, they're interested in eyeballs. They 616 00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:45,720 Speaker 1: want to reach as many. 617 00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:48,400 Speaker 2: People don't like a niche tech product, even though three 618 00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:52,400 Speaker 2: hundred million weekly uses sounds big. Yeah, that's still kind 619 00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:54,840 Speaker 2: of niche in comparison to Google's billions. 620 00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:57,360 Speaker 1: Off And there could be an audience. There's certainly an 621 00:30:57,400 --> 00:31:01,000 Speaker 1: audience in Silicon Valiant in New York, and I'm pointing 622 00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:02,800 Speaker 1: at myself and the tech doorks. 623 00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:03,600 Speaker 2: That use these tools. 624 00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:06,000 Speaker 1: But it would be really interesting to see how they 625 00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:09,160 Speaker 1: build these tools out, what kind of questions they get, 626 00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:12,360 Speaker 1: and who are the advertisers that are that are interested 627 00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:15,840 Speaker 1: in this, like you could obviously Google has seen interest 628 00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:19,520 Speaker 1: from a lot of shopping e commerce advertisers. If you're 629 00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:21,960 Speaker 1: selling clothing, you might be interested in, Hey, what's a 630 00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:22,760 Speaker 1: good outfit. 631 00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:22,840 Speaker 2: I could wear? 632 00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:25,840 Speaker 1: Like that's obviously a stupid example. It'll be interesting to 633 00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:27,600 Speaker 1: see how they build this out to a great example. 634 00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:29,400 Speaker 2: I'm assuming. 635 00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:33,520 Speaker 1: I'm assuming obviously we've seen open ai has hired executives 636 00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:37,280 Speaker 1: from from Twitter, from Instagram, from Google. I'm sure there 637 00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:39,160 Speaker 1: are a lets smart people that are building that. It'll 638 00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:42,680 Speaker 1: be curious to see how the market does respond to 639 00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:43,880 Speaker 1: it and how much interest there is. 640 00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:45,960 Speaker 2: But just to be clear, you don't just like plug 641 00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:48,000 Speaker 2: the ads. That you have to do like an ad exchange. 642 00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:50,240 Speaker 2: You have to have a place where publishers can buy ads, 643 00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:52,680 Speaker 2: and then you have to have an exchange forbidding on 644 00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:55,400 Speaker 2: the ads. And then there's something else I'm missing like 645 00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:56,120 Speaker 2: at that, like. 646 00:31:56,920 --> 00:31:59,960 Speaker 1: You'd have to build a platform that would allow ads 647 00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:04,120 Speaker 1: advertisers to go in set the parameters that they want. 648 00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:07,400 Speaker 2: It's very technical and you can't buy off the shelfe though. 649 00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:09,320 Speaker 1: Like I mean, maybe you can white label it. You 650 00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:11,600 Speaker 1: can go to a company that does that and say hey, 651 00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:14,760 Speaker 1: give us the tech, and you still. 652 00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:17,040 Speaker 2: Have to find a way to represent those ads within 653 00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:18,840 Speaker 2: queries is the problem. 654 00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:20,200 Speaker 1: And you'd have to have salespeople that go to the 655 00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:23,640 Speaker 1: market and say, hey, you should buy our product. Advertising 656 00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:27,640 Speaker 1: is outside of the monopolies in the space I think 657 00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:32,600 Speaker 1: you know, Google, Amazon, Facebook, Those are obviously where every 658 00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:36,160 Speaker 1: dollar goes. It's a really cut throat industry in terms 659 00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:39,160 Speaker 1: of there's a lot of competition. I think advertisers might 660 00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:42,960 Speaker 1: be willing to test and and try out a new platform, 661 00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:45,840 Speaker 1: but it takes a lot of work to really pull 662 00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:49,080 Speaker 1: the dollars from from a meta, from a Google, from 663 00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:50,200 Speaker 1: an Amazon soalk. 664 00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:52,360 Speaker 2: A while is it took him years to actually build up. 665 00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:56,640 Speaker 2: And TikTok's business doesn't lose money every time anyone uses 666 00:32:56,680 --> 00:32:59,800 Speaker 2: it every single time. It's just I've also had a 667 00:32:59,840 --> 00:33:02,960 Speaker 2: lot of arguments online this week in general, but about 668 00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:05,680 Speaker 2: this specifically, because the response is we will just add ads, 669 00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:07,880 Speaker 2: the ads will be there. But it doesn't even sound 670 00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:10,760 Speaker 2: like the economics of that, because they need they're losing 671 00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:13,280 Speaker 2: five billion, ten that will probably lose ten billion next year. 672 00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:16,479 Speaker 2: An ADS business that does five billion dollars a year 673 00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:19,280 Speaker 2: does not seem something that you've just spin up overnight, right, 674 00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:20,560 Speaker 2: That's not an easy lift. 675 00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:24,479 Speaker 1: Yeah, I can't speak. I've never had to build an 676 00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:27,800 Speaker 1: ADS planning right, although I will say, and this is 677 00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:31,800 Speaker 1: totally different, it's a totally different industry. But you do 678 00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:36,640 Speaker 1: see companies like Walmart, companies like Costco say hey, wait 679 00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:38,560 Speaker 1: a minute, we can actually we've got a lot of 680 00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:42,400 Speaker 1: data here, let's sell this to advertisers, right, and that 681 00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:46,120 Speaker 1: those have very quickly become billion dollar businesses. That is 682 00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:48,240 Speaker 1: not the same thing as a search engine. 683 00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:48,640 Speaker 2: Right. 684 00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:53,080 Speaker 1: People are typing queries into and then getting responses, and it. 685 00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:55,719 Speaker 2: Isn't even obvious if they want to advertise do on 686 00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:57,720 Speaker 2: search GPT or if they just want to do it 687 00:33:57,760 --> 00:34:01,480 Speaker 2: on the regular chat GPT, because those are two different products. Also, 688 00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:04,000 Speaker 2: I don't think people realize how difficult search engines are 689 00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:06,880 Speaker 2: to build. Also, there's like tens of thousands of salespeople 690 00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:09,120 Speaker 2: at Google, right, am I right in saying that rum 691 00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:12,240 Speaker 2: there's a lot of people. Yeah, like it just doesn't 692 00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:14,719 Speaker 2: It feels like an insanely big lift. And also the 693 00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:17,520 Speaker 2: act an act somewhat in my opinion, don't worry. 694 00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:21,680 Speaker 1: I'm curious what is your You know, most people as 695 00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:24,239 Speaker 1: a default hate ads. If they can get Netflix, they 696 00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:26,719 Speaker 1: want to get it without I'm saying people that can 697 00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:28,480 Speaker 1: afford it are going to say, hey, I don't want 698 00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:30,000 Speaker 1: to watch aids. I don't want to engage with that 699 00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:33,240 Speaker 1: kind of stuff. What do you think about ads? Supported media? 700 00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:35,440 Speaker 1: Ads kind of infiltrating everything. 701 00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:38,240 Speaker 2: I think if the ads don't ruin the experience, they're fine. 702 00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:40,759 Speaker 2: If the ads are part of the experience and you 703 00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:42,440 Speaker 2: see them. I like them in newsletters, even though I 704 00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:45,799 Speaker 2: may skip over them like that, just like immediately, I 705 00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:48,279 Speaker 2: don't mind if they're not horribly interrupting. The reason I 706 00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:52,520 Speaker 2: loathe Meta and loa like specifically like Instagram in particular, 707 00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:58,719 Speaker 2: is their ads are intrusive and offensive at times they're annoying, 708 00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:00,480 Speaker 2: and they're not annoying in a way it's like, oh, 709 00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:02,319 Speaker 2: there's a banner at I can click away from that. 710 00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:05,960 Speaker 2: It's like, no, you will see this across your entire phone, dickhead, 711 00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:08,960 Speaker 2: look at it. Look at the new kind of low 712 00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:11,520 Speaker 2: car bagels that don't even taste good. Yeah, they sold 713 00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:15,400 Speaker 2: some bagels to me, but it's just I don't mind that. 714 00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:17,239 Speaker 2: And I also like the option of paying not to 715 00:35:17,239 --> 00:35:19,319 Speaker 2: have ads like I will do it where I need 716 00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:21,640 Speaker 2: to like pay for Netflix that pay for Hulu because 717 00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:23,680 Speaker 2: I actually watch a lot of stuff on there, and 718 00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:26,319 Speaker 2: then Amazon did that, which is rude. But I don't know, 719 00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:29,960 Speaker 2: I think ad support it's fine. It's just one of 720 00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:32,359 Speaker 2: the reasons to what you want here is listeners need 721 00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:34,200 Speaker 2: to know it is not just like you go and 722 00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:37,480 Speaker 2: do like an adcompany dot com and then buy that 723 00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:40,080 Speaker 2: for open Ai and then it works. I also don't 724 00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:41,120 Speaker 2: think they have a lot of time, but that's a 725 00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:45,160 Speaker 2: completely different subject. So all right, to wrap us up, 726 00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:48,040 Speaker 2: what do you see for the next year within ads? 727 00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:50,719 Speaker 2: It feels like a very chaotic time, especially with Lena 728 00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:52,840 Speaker 2: Khan might be on the way out, probably on the 729 00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:56,160 Speaker 2: way What do you think is gonna happen? What are 730 00:35:56,200 --> 00:35:59,640 Speaker 2: you excited for or even just interested in? 731 00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:03,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a good question. One thing I'm particularly interested 732 00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:07,120 Speaker 1: in is this kind of to my point earlier about everything, 733 00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:10,239 Speaker 1: there's this cliche I think Eric Suffert coined it. He's 734 00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:13,640 Speaker 1: an analyst in advertising, that everything becomes an ad network. Like, 735 00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:16,880 Speaker 1: if you have an audience, which ed I believe you 736 00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:19,640 Speaker 1: did I do, You're going to start selling ads, whether 737 00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:23,719 Speaker 1: you like it or not, because it's found money. It's money. 738 00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:25,840 Speaker 1: You looked under your shoe and or you looked in 739 00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:26,640 Speaker 1: your pocket. 740 00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:28,239 Speaker 2: And there was go people to sell to. You sell 741 00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:29,040 Speaker 2: to them exactly. 742 00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:32,280 Speaker 1: And everyone from to what I was saying earlier, everyone 743 00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:36,440 Speaker 1: from Walmart to clearly open Ai has basically figured this 744 00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:38,680 Speaker 1: out figured it out the same thing that Google and 745 00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:41,759 Speaker 1: Meta did you know twenty years ago that hey, you 746 00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:46,600 Speaker 1: can actually monetize this technology by selling advertising. I'm curious 747 00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:49,160 Speaker 1: to see that now that everything is an AD network, 748 00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:52,520 Speaker 1: how do you compete within that? If Uber is selling 749 00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:55,000 Speaker 1: me ads while I am in their car. 750 00:36:55,560 --> 00:36:56,240 Speaker 2: If I'm an. 751 00:36:56,120 --> 00:36:59,680 Speaker 1: Advertiser, well, is Uber a goodbye? Is that better than 752 00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:01,440 Speaker 1: a Google than I'm meta? There's going to be a 753 00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:03,359 Speaker 1: lot of competition in the space and all of these 754 00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:07,360 Speaker 1: kind of tertiary platforms. I'm really curious to see, like 755 00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:11,319 Speaker 1: does that mean there's going to be consolidation? Does that 756 00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:13,120 Speaker 1: mean that there's going to be these kind of like 757 00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:16,560 Speaker 1: partnerships that pop up, Like United Airlines they're going to 758 00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:19,200 Speaker 1: start targeting people with ads in the plane on the 759 00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:20,160 Speaker 1: back of the screens. 760 00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:22,279 Speaker 2: Some of them have done that. 761 00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:24,919 Speaker 1: United Airlines. I believe it is the first. 762 00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:26,880 Speaker 2: Today, I swear to God, I saw what I'm. 763 00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:28,640 Speaker 1: Just so you might see an ad, so you might 764 00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:30,640 Speaker 1: see an ad that everyone's see. 765 00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:32,000 Speaker 2: I'm thinking of the Wi Fi. 766 00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:36,760 Speaker 1: They're going to customize the ads to to each flyer 767 00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:41,120 Speaker 1: on a United Airlines flight and that's interesting. 768 00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:44,440 Speaker 2: So that's interest leave me alone. 769 00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:46,880 Speaker 1: And there's an elon Musk connection. Because the way they 770 00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:48,600 Speaker 1: can do it is because of Starlink, because they have 771 00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:51,000 Speaker 1: a partnership with Starlink, which gives them the Internet, the 772 00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:53,160 Speaker 1: power the advertisers. 773 00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:56,360 Speaker 2: So they're able to actually and a closing questions, thought 774 00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:01,840 Speaker 2: how at some point to your point about ignoring newsletter ads, 775 00:38:02,600 --> 00:38:04,759 Speaker 2: at some point, I wonder if people are just going 776 00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:08,120 Speaker 2: to get so oversaturated that they just stop breezing past 777 00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:11,040 Speaker 2: this stuff that they just like, I don't care, I 778 00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:13,000 Speaker 2: don't believe in, Like, I don't want to be harassed 779 00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:16,520 Speaker 2: like this because talking to the few normal people I know, 780 00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:20,560 Speaker 2: the non dogs, the people aren't smashing cars windows to 781 00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:22,480 Speaker 2: steal people's wallets and such through listen to the show. 782 00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:25,640 Speaker 2: Of course, their general thought is like these fucking apps, 783 00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:28,560 Speaker 2: they're just like overwhelmed by it. Everyone's overwhelmed by everything, 784 00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:31,200 Speaker 2: but the ads part. I'm actually really glad you brought 785 00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:33,319 Speaker 2: up that everything becomes an ad network thing, because I 786 00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:36,920 Speaker 2: think everything already kind of has. It's in your kindles, 787 00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:39,239 Speaker 2: your phones, your planes. Now, I guess back of the car, 788 00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:41,719 Speaker 2: you've got some weird thing on the back of Uber drivers, 789 00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:44,840 Speaker 2: things that advertisers to you. Now it's so weird. 790 00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:50,319 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I think, yes, people's eyes glaze over. 791 00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:54,240 Speaker 1: But that's why they're willing to spend seven million dollars 792 00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:56,680 Speaker 1: to get in the Super Bowl, right right, you need 793 00:38:56,880 --> 00:38:59,560 Speaker 1: there are so few opportunities to get as many eyeballs 794 00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:02,719 Speaker 1: as possible and to get people to pay attention. That's 795 00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:06,480 Speaker 1: why as there's less and less surviving media out there, 796 00:39:06,680 --> 00:39:08,000 Speaker 1: it becomes more valuable. 797 00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:10,640 Speaker 2: Ryan, thank you so much for joining me. You are 798 00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:12,400 Speaker 2: one of the best to have reporters out there. I'm 799 00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:13,880 Speaker 2: so glad to have you. Where can people find you? 800 00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:18,040 Speaker 1: Find me on? On Twitter? Ryan Barwick, Morning Brew. I'm 801 00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:20,520 Speaker 1: so sorry I had to describe ad tech to you. 802 00:39:20,719 --> 00:39:24,680 Speaker 2: No I had. This is literally the most important industry 803 00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:27,640 Speaker 2: in tech, like other than like micro chips, like this 804 00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:30,839 Speaker 2: is actually genuinely unlink thing. You can of course find 805 00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:32,879 Speaker 2: me and I have actually changed my Blue Sky name 806 00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:36,600 Speaker 2: and no, no, Mattasowski, I have not re recorded the end. Again, 807 00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:39,160 Speaker 2: very sorry. You can find me on at exitron dot 808 00:39:39,160 --> 00:39:41,600 Speaker 2: com on Blue Sky. You can still find me on Twitter, 809 00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:43,479 Speaker 2: but I think I might be bloody done with that. 810 00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:44,440 Speaker 1: That's what they are say. 811 00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:46,520 Speaker 2: No, but I barely check it now. I feel like 812 00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:48,640 Speaker 2: I feel the same way as I do with Facebook. 813 00:39:48,640 --> 00:39:52,319 Speaker 2: I'm looking at Instagram more. It's disgusting. Anyway, you've been 814 00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:54,520 Speaker 2: listening to Better Offline. Thank you so much. Thank you 815 00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:57,479 Speaker 2: to Daniel GOODMANO producer as well. Thank you Ryan. Thanks 816 00:39:57,520 --> 00:40:07,080 Speaker 2: for the listening. Of course, thank you for listening to 817 00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:07,960 Speaker 2: Better Offline. 818 00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:10,520 Speaker 3: The editor and composer of the Better Offline theme song 819 00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:13,200 Speaker 3: is Matasowski. You can check out more of his music 820 00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:16,919 Speaker 3: and audio projects at Matasowski dot com, M A T 821 00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:21,360 Speaker 3: T O S O W s ki dot com. You 822 00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:23,920 Speaker 3: can email me at easy at Better offline dot com 823 00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:26,320 Speaker 3: or visit Better Offline dot com to find more podcast 824 00:40:26,360 --> 00:40:29,680 Speaker 3: links and of course my newsletter. I also really recommend 825 00:40:29,719 --> 00:40:31,640 Speaker 3: you go to chat dot where's youreaed dot at to 826 00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:34,040 Speaker 3: visit the discord, and go to our slash. 827 00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:36,960 Speaker 2: Better Offline to check out our reddit. Thank you so 828 00:40:37,040 --> 00:40:40,480 Speaker 2: much for listening. Better Offline is a production of cool 829 00:40:40,560 --> 00:40:41,120 Speaker 2: Zone Media. 830 00:40:41,239 --> 00:40:44,080 Speaker 3: For more from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool 831 00:40:44,160 --> 00:40:47,239 Speaker 3: Zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio 832 00:40:47,280 --> 00:41:07,760 Speaker 1: App, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.