1 00:00:02,320 --> 00:00:05,520 Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the thing. 2 00:00:09,640 --> 00:00:12,600 Speaker 1: I went to Rahway Prison in New Jersey now called 3 00:00:12,680 --> 00:00:16,600 Speaker 1: East Jersey State Prison to do research for a film. 4 00:00:16,640 --> 00:00:19,599 Speaker 1: Over the course of two weeks, I interviewed several inmates 5 00:00:19,640 --> 00:00:23,880 Speaker 1: who were incarcerated there. I met armed robbers, rapists, drug dealers, 6 00:00:23,880 --> 00:00:26,720 Speaker 1: and murderers, and I'll never forget one minute of it. 7 00:00:27,760 --> 00:00:32,000 Speaker 1: For over forty years, Martin Horn's career has focused on 8 00:00:32,040 --> 00:00:34,599 Speaker 1: men like the ones I met and the prisons they 9 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:39,040 Speaker 1: live in. He's held every imaginable job in corrections, from 10 00:00:39,080 --> 00:00:43,200 Speaker 1: debating the fairness of states sentencing guidelines to fixing leaky 11 00:00:43,280 --> 00:00:47,720 Speaker 1: water pipes in aging facilities. In two thousand two, Mayor 12 00:00:47,720 --> 00:00:51,599 Speaker 1: Bloomberg appointed Horn Commissioner of the New York City Department 13 00:00:51,600 --> 00:00:55,640 Speaker 1: of Probation. A year later, in an unprecedented move, Bloomberg 14 00:00:55,720 --> 00:01:00,280 Speaker 1: gave Horn an additional job, Commissioner of Corrections. Horn held 15 00:01:00,360 --> 00:01:04,320 Speaker 1: both positions until he left in two thousand nine. Leaving 16 00:01:04,480 --> 00:01:07,760 Speaker 1: public office has allowed Martin horn to be more vocal 17 00:01:08,120 --> 00:01:11,720 Speaker 1: about his opinions on prisons, sentencing, and how to deal 18 00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:14,640 Speaker 1: with our nation's drug problem. I would legalize drugs across 19 00:01:14,640 --> 00:01:18,680 Speaker 1: the board. You would really legalize all of them, You 20 00:01:18,720 --> 00:01:24,360 Speaker 1: would legalize old dress. Yes, that's a pretty well, well, 21 00:01:24,400 --> 00:01:26,920 Speaker 1: I wouldn't say that. I wouldn't say that while I 22 00:01:26,959 --> 00:01:29,240 Speaker 1: worked for a governor or a mayor who was an 23 00:01:29,240 --> 00:01:31,679 Speaker 1: elected definition. Why wouldn't you say that then? As opposed 24 00:01:31,720 --> 00:01:34,520 Speaker 1: to know because I had a mortgage debate. Martin Horne's 25 00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:38,200 Speaker 1: career in corrections started right out of college. My first 26 00:01:38,280 --> 00:01:40,160 Speaker 1: job was as a New York State parole officer. And 27 00:01:40,160 --> 00:01:41,839 Speaker 1: how did you What was it that led you down 28 00:01:41,880 --> 00:01:47,520 Speaker 1: that path? Um? I graduated college, I was twenty one 29 00:01:47,640 --> 00:01:51,240 Speaker 1: years old. I needed a job, and I took a 30 00:01:51,280 --> 00:01:53,720 Speaker 1: civil service test. New York State at that time had 31 00:01:53,720 --> 00:01:55,600 Speaker 1: a test called the Professional Careers Test, and it was 32 00:01:55,640 --> 00:01:59,280 Speaker 1: sort of a generalist examination, and if you passed it, 33 00:01:59,280 --> 00:02:02,440 Speaker 1: it qualified for a variety of positions. I grew up 34 00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:08,280 Speaker 1: in Brooklyn, uh in Flappish, my father from fourth All right, well, 35 00:02:08,560 --> 00:02:09,959 Speaker 1: so you took this, What did you want to be 36 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:12,320 Speaker 1: a police officer? Was that the first I wanted a job? 37 00:02:12,760 --> 00:02:15,160 Speaker 1: The family and civil service and police and law enforce? 38 00:02:15,240 --> 00:02:17,280 Speaker 1: Not not at all, I said. When I took the job, 39 00:02:17,360 --> 00:02:19,799 Speaker 1: I didn't know there was such a thing as a 40 00:02:19,840 --> 00:02:22,040 Speaker 1: parole officer. I had never thought of it. And then 41 00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:24,080 Speaker 1: then so you took this testament to this test and 42 00:02:24,120 --> 00:02:26,200 Speaker 1: I got fairly good grade. And so I started getting 43 00:02:26,280 --> 00:02:27,960 Speaker 1: job offers from the State of New York. I got 44 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:30,520 Speaker 1: an offer to become a purchasing agent for what was 45 00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:33,120 Speaker 1: then called the East Hudson Highway Authority. I got an 46 00:02:33,120 --> 00:02:38,280 Speaker 1: offer to be a business office person at Downstate Medical 47 00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:41,360 Speaker 1: Center in Brooklyn. But then I I actually I took 48 00:02:41,400 --> 00:02:43,720 Speaker 1: the job to become a paroleer. So I had I 49 00:02:43,760 --> 00:02:45,679 Speaker 1: knew a guy who was doing it. He said it 50 00:02:45,720 --> 00:02:47,800 Speaker 1: was a good job. They trained you, the pay was 51 00:02:48,240 --> 00:02:50,720 Speaker 1: the training. Well, actually I was in a two year 52 00:02:50,760 --> 00:02:53,400 Speaker 1: trainee ship. It was two years, and they it was 53 00:02:53,440 --> 00:02:55,320 Speaker 1: on the job training. They started you with about six 54 00:02:55,360 --> 00:02:57,960 Speaker 1: weeks of classroom training. The first thing they did was 55 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:00,880 Speaker 1: they assigned me to a unit they had then which 56 00:03:00,919 --> 00:03:03,160 Speaker 1: they no longer have called the employment unit. In our job, 57 00:03:03,840 --> 00:03:06,639 Speaker 1: we would get a paperwork on individuals who are coming 58 00:03:06,680 --> 00:03:09,040 Speaker 1: home from New York State prisons who needed jobs. And 59 00:03:09,080 --> 00:03:11,560 Speaker 1: we literally pounded the pavement in New York City, walked 60 00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:13,880 Speaker 1: all over. Each had sort of a neighborhood. I had 61 00:03:13,919 --> 00:03:16,520 Speaker 1: Long Island City and each day, I got five or 62 00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:20,680 Speaker 1: ten guys names and their backgrounds on little five by 63 00:03:20,680 --> 00:03:22,120 Speaker 1: eight cards, and I have to go out and find 64 00:03:22,160 --> 00:03:25,200 Speaker 1: them jobs. Where was people's attitudes toward employing those people 65 00:03:25,240 --> 00:03:27,799 Speaker 1: back then, Well, they actually we had a very sophisticated system. 66 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:30,680 Speaker 1: We knew employers who had previously hired employees and they 67 00:03:30,720 --> 00:03:33,079 Speaker 1: were disposed, and they were disposed, and many of them said, look, 68 00:03:33,080 --> 00:03:35,280 Speaker 1: I hired a guy from Clinton and he was the 69 00:03:35,280 --> 00:03:38,640 Speaker 1: best guy I trusted up with. That was that was. 70 00:03:38,960 --> 00:03:41,320 Speaker 1: So we did that for about six weeks. Then they 71 00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:44,720 Speaker 1: actually sent me to Sing Sing for I think two months, 72 00:03:45,360 --> 00:03:48,640 Speaker 1: where I had to meet with inmates who were becoming 73 00:03:48,640 --> 00:03:51,560 Speaker 1: eligible for release on parole and helped them to prepare 74 00:03:51,600 --> 00:03:53,520 Speaker 1: for their appearance before the border parole and write a 75 00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:56,560 Speaker 1: report about them to the Board of Parole. Then they 76 00:03:56,640 --> 00:03:59,080 Speaker 1: sent me to a unit. Back then, before a man 77 00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:02,000 Speaker 1: or a woman could released from prison, they had to 78 00:04:02,040 --> 00:04:05,400 Speaker 1: have an acceptable residence and a job, a real job. 79 00:04:06,160 --> 00:04:10,040 Speaker 1: And so she were interacting and during this time with yes, 80 00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:13,120 Speaker 1: but I wasn't supervising. I was. I was interacted with families. 81 00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:14,920 Speaker 1: I was learning how to do investigations. So for the 82 00:04:14,920 --> 00:04:17,160 Speaker 1: guy that took this test in nineteen sixty nine. Who 83 00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:19,360 Speaker 1: didn't have an eye towards this kind of work. When 84 00:04:19,400 --> 00:04:21,800 Speaker 1: you were interacting with these people, what did you take 85 00:04:21,839 --> 00:04:25,000 Speaker 1: from it? It was fascinating. Where else do you see 86 00:04:25,040 --> 00:04:29,279 Speaker 1: the varieties of human behavior? I was the drum. I 87 00:04:29,279 --> 00:04:33,200 Speaker 1: had grown up in a middle class home in Brooklyn, 88 00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:36,839 Speaker 1: on the edge of Brownsville. I was familiar with Brown's 89 00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:42,599 Speaker 1: villain Ease, New York. They were adjacent neighborhoods. Yes, not 90 00:04:42,760 --> 00:04:46,720 Speaker 1: as tough as now, not as desperate as now, but Oceanville, Brownsville, 91 00:04:47,040 --> 00:04:51,760 Speaker 1: Ocean I was as tough, and and the desperation of 92 00:04:51,760 --> 00:04:54,760 Speaker 1: the families, and more importantly to me, the dignity of 93 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:56,680 Speaker 1: the families that we're making it. I used to come 94 00:04:56,720 --> 00:04:59,920 Speaker 1: home and say, what's remarkable is not how much crime 95 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:01,520 Speaker 1: there is, but how little crime there is when you 96 00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:05,000 Speaker 1: see how people are living right and so to this day, 97 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:07,920 Speaker 1: when much people you try to hang between poverty and crime, 98 00:05:07,920 --> 00:05:10,160 Speaker 1: I said, listen, there are more people who grow up 99 00:05:10,160 --> 00:05:13,119 Speaker 1: and live in poverty who don't commit crime. Yeah, And 100 00:05:13,120 --> 00:05:16,200 Speaker 1: and so it was fascinating, and then you know, before 101 00:05:16,200 --> 00:05:18,440 Speaker 1: I turned around, it just turned into a career and 102 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:20,159 Speaker 1: I enjoyed it and I did, well, When did you 103 00:05:20,200 --> 00:05:24,120 Speaker 1: become an actual parole officer where you are well after 104 00:05:24,400 --> 00:05:27,000 Speaker 1: after the first year you went from being a parole 105 00:05:27,040 --> 00:05:30,720 Speaker 1: officer trainee one to becoming a parole officer trainee to 106 00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:33,359 Speaker 1: classic civil service, and then at the end of the 107 00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:36,000 Speaker 1: second year you became a full parole officer and you 108 00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:39,760 Speaker 1: got more cases assigned to you, and you worked fairly independent. 109 00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:42,520 Speaker 1: Did your attitude, and this is a very broad question, 110 00:05:42,680 --> 00:05:48,680 Speaker 1: but did your overall attitude toward paroled inmates evolve over 111 00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:50,960 Speaker 1: the years where you were more at eye level with 112 00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:53,520 Speaker 1: them and hands on with them, And then it changed 113 00:05:53,640 --> 00:05:55,560 Speaker 1: you became more of an administrator and it became head 114 00:05:55,600 --> 00:05:59,320 Speaker 1: of the department. I really think that my attitude towards 115 00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:04,039 Speaker 1: imprisoned and formally imprisoned people was formed during those early 116 00:06:04,120 --> 00:06:07,040 Speaker 1: years as a parole officer. It was one of his 117 00:06:07,560 --> 00:06:11,599 Speaker 1: recognizing that every one of them was just a normal, 118 00:06:11,880 --> 00:06:16,240 Speaker 1: ordinary guy. They were all guys back then who had 119 00:06:16,320 --> 00:06:21,279 Speaker 1: made bad judgments. I met very few, really very few 120 00:06:21,320 --> 00:06:25,320 Speaker 1: who were downright evil and mean. They were pushed loves. 121 00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:26,800 Speaker 1: I said to one guy at one time, this was 122 00:06:26,839 --> 00:06:28,760 Speaker 1: a guy. This is when you could smoke on the 123 00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:31,160 Speaker 1: on the subway He had a cigarette lighter that was 124 00:06:31,200 --> 00:06:33,160 Speaker 1: in the shape of a derringer. He took it out 125 00:06:33,640 --> 00:06:36,239 Speaker 1: and a cop was looking at him, and he held 126 00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:38,080 Speaker 1: his arm out and aimed it at the cop. And 127 00:06:38,080 --> 00:06:40,560 Speaker 1: he got arrested. And I said to him, if stupidity 128 00:06:40,640 --> 00:06:43,320 Speaker 1: was a crime, you would get the death penalty. A 129 00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:47,039 Speaker 1: lot of them were addicted to drugs. And I met 130 00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:50,040 Speaker 1: their families and they were just folks. And you know, there, 131 00:06:50,040 --> 00:06:51,520 Speaker 1: but for the grace of God, could go any one 132 00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:54,200 Speaker 1: of us. I agree with you. I often think to myself, 133 00:06:54,279 --> 00:06:57,200 Speaker 1: my God, how many moments in my life could something 134 00:06:57,240 --> 00:07:00,640 Speaker 1: have gone wrong? Or I could be in a docket 135 00:07:00,720 --> 00:07:02,200 Speaker 1: and I could be in a courtroom and I could 136 00:07:02,200 --> 00:07:04,640 Speaker 1: be facing prison time and probably had the benefit of 137 00:07:04,640 --> 00:07:07,920 Speaker 1: far better circumstances than most of these guys, Right, they didn't, 138 00:07:07,920 --> 00:07:10,240 Speaker 1: You know, they had difficulty Frighten John. When you see 139 00:07:10,280 --> 00:07:12,720 Speaker 1: people who do have the benefit of these circumstances and 140 00:07:12,800 --> 00:07:17,119 Speaker 1: still commit crimes, mo, Yeah, I always think to myself, 141 00:07:17,120 --> 00:07:19,800 Speaker 1: we've got it wrong. We need be having longer sentences 142 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:22,920 Speaker 1: for white collar crime than we do. For I've always felt, 143 00:07:23,040 --> 00:07:25,800 Speaker 1: and I said this even in my last years as 144 00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:27,680 Speaker 1: the head of a large corrections agency. This is what 145 00:07:27,720 --> 00:07:29,800 Speaker 1: I said to my staff. I said, this is our 146 00:07:29,880 --> 00:07:33,880 Speaker 1: standard of care. It is that every person in our 147 00:07:33,920 --> 00:07:37,240 Speaker 1: custody is to be treated as we would want our 148 00:07:37,280 --> 00:07:40,560 Speaker 1: own child treated if they were in that circumstance. You 149 00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:44,920 Speaker 1: felt that, I absolutely felt, because for most people, you know, 150 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:48,840 Speaker 1: you think about prison and imprisonment in our society, you know, 151 00:07:48,880 --> 00:07:52,360 Speaker 1: prison is divided into a dual function. There's to protect 152 00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:56,240 Speaker 1: the public and to take away these predatory people and 153 00:07:56,280 --> 00:07:58,840 Speaker 1: put them away, and then the rehabilitative aspect of it. 154 00:07:59,080 --> 00:08:01,960 Speaker 1: And most publics sept that dichotomy. I don't tell me, well, 155 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:05,160 Speaker 1: I don't buy rehabilitation by that way. You mean, I 156 00:08:05,200 --> 00:08:07,360 Speaker 1: don't think that prisoners do a very good job. I 157 00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:11,840 Speaker 1: think it is a valid social purpose two punish people 158 00:08:12,880 --> 00:08:15,559 Speaker 1: to reinforce our social norms. That's why we punish people. 159 00:08:15,960 --> 00:08:19,440 Speaker 1: It is a valid social purpose to punish people, to 160 00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:23,040 Speaker 1: extract vengeance in the name of society on behalf of 161 00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:27,720 Speaker 1: aggrieved victims. It's a valid social purpose to incapacitate people 162 00:08:27,720 --> 00:08:30,600 Speaker 1: who endanger us. See, that's the more important to me. 163 00:08:30,920 --> 00:08:33,560 Speaker 1: And the prison system does those three things pretty well. 164 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:36,640 Speaker 1: There was a sociologist, Hans Motok, who once said, you 165 00:08:36,679 --> 00:08:39,400 Speaker 1: can't train an aviator in a submarine. You can't train 166 00:08:39,440 --> 00:08:41,600 Speaker 1: a man to live in the community in prison. And 167 00:08:41,640 --> 00:08:44,920 Speaker 1: if a person needs rehabilitation and they're not dangerous, the 168 00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:48,280 Speaker 1: best place to rehabilitate, whatever the hell that means, is 169 00:08:48,320 --> 00:08:50,000 Speaker 1: in the community where they're gonna have to live. Now, 170 00:08:50,080 --> 00:08:52,080 Speaker 1: let me ask you that someone said something to me 171 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:54,160 Speaker 1: on this visit to Rahway, and this is probably the 172 00:08:54,160 --> 00:08:56,880 Speaker 1: most significant thing someone said to me. And I said, 173 00:08:56,920 --> 00:08:59,640 Speaker 1: the problem with this system is the sentencing relative to 174 00:08:59,640 --> 00:09:02,520 Speaker 1: the class C stification of the crime, relative to the 175 00:09:02,559 --> 00:09:05,559 Speaker 1: record of the individual inmate. Because they said, some guys 176 00:09:05,640 --> 00:09:08,719 Speaker 1: come in here and the following thing takes place. They 177 00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:12,839 Speaker 1: come in here and they're sorry, and then three months 178 00:09:12,840 --> 00:09:16,959 Speaker 1: go by and they're really really sorry, and six months 179 00:09:16,960 --> 00:09:20,280 Speaker 1: go by and they're really really really sorry, and they're 180 00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:22,600 Speaker 1: ready to get out and they're sorry, and then you 181 00:09:22,679 --> 00:09:24,319 Speaker 1: keep them in there another couple of months and they're 182 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:27,559 Speaker 1: not sorry. Now they're angry. Flip and now they're angry, 183 00:09:27,960 --> 00:09:31,360 Speaker 1: and now they've switched sides. And I'm wondering what your 184 00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:33,160 Speaker 1: opinion is. In my opinion is New York Well, the 185 00:09:33,240 --> 00:09:37,600 Speaker 1: United States generally incarcerates people longer than any other country. 186 00:09:37,880 --> 00:09:41,760 Speaker 1: It's just our culture and it's our system, and it's 187 00:09:42,200 --> 00:09:46,520 Speaker 1: we have over lengthy prison absolutely absolutely, I mean for crimes, 188 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:50,480 Speaker 1: for victims, crimes, and even for crimes with victims. Ever 189 00:09:50,520 --> 00:09:54,080 Speaker 1: since m Richard Nixon and the War on Crime, which 190 00:09:54,160 --> 00:09:57,280 Speaker 1: was really just, uh, I think, a way to capture 191 00:09:57,320 --> 00:09:59,480 Speaker 1: the Southern vote, because he really meant a war on 192 00:09:59,520 --> 00:10:02,679 Speaker 1: black people. Ever since Willie Horton, which was just an 193 00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:06,520 Speaker 1: extension of that same thing, no politician has been willing 194 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:11,680 Speaker 1: to reduce criminal sentences. You know, during his tenure, Mario 195 00:10:11,800 --> 00:10:15,760 Speaker 1: Cuomo as governor of New York steadfastly opposed the death penalty, 196 00:10:15,760 --> 00:10:19,520 Speaker 1: as did you carry before him, principal, and to be 197 00:10:19,559 --> 00:10:23,120 Speaker 1: honored for that, but he also during his tenure built 198 00:10:23,160 --> 00:10:26,480 Speaker 1: more prison beds in New York State than all the 199 00:10:26,520 --> 00:10:31,559 Speaker 1: former governors of New York before him. Yeah, because because 200 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:37,240 Speaker 1: he could not oppose efforts to make sentences and penalties longer, 201 00:10:37,679 --> 00:10:39,880 Speaker 1: because of his death penalty stance, he had to protect 202 00:10:39,960 --> 00:10:42,160 Speaker 1: himself by want to be tough on everything else. And 203 00:10:42,200 --> 00:10:45,200 Speaker 1: I think this has been the politics and the media 204 00:10:45,280 --> 00:10:48,200 Speaker 1: have driven it in this country to a terrible extend. 205 00:10:48,280 --> 00:10:51,560 Speaker 1: So for how many years I was a parole officer 206 00:10:51,840 --> 00:10:56,439 Speaker 1: for about seven years, and then what happened? Uh then? Actually, well, 207 00:10:56,440 --> 00:11:00,400 Speaker 1: I got a graduate degree, and I moved uh to 208 00:11:00,600 --> 00:11:02,719 Speaker 1: upstate New York to teach in the State University of 209 00:11:02,720 --> 00:11:05,520 Speaker 1: New York. I got a teaching appointment as an assistant professor. 210 00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:08,280 Speaker 1: I was bored out of my mind. You went from 211 00:11:08,280 --> 00:11:11,400 Speaker 1: one prison system to another. Yes, so to speak, Although 212 00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:15,240 Speaker 1: an interesting story in that and the time and the 213 00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:17,160 Speaker 1: time I was a pro officer, I had arrested people. 214 00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:19,160 Speaker 1: I had sent people back to prison for very lengthy 215 00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:21,760 Speaker 1: periods of time, guys who had committed murder, guys who 216 00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:24,480 Speaker 1: had committed rape. And nobody ever laid a glove on me. 217 00:11:24,520 --> 00:11:26,520 Speaker 1: It was never a problem. I'd walk up to a guy, said, look, 218 00:11:26,559 --> 00:11:28,640 Speaker 1: I gotta take you back. I put the handcuffs on him, 219 00:11:28,640 --> 00:11:30,000 Speaker 1: I put in the car, we take him to jail. 220 00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:33,320 Speaker 1: But while I was teaching, I got embroiled in a 221 00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:36,800 Speaker 1: tenure battle with a colleague who one day walked into 222 00:11:36,840 --> 00:11:41,360 Speaker 1: my office and cold cocked me. So I always felt 223 00:11:41,360 --> 00:11:47,240 Speaker 1: the teaching was somewhat right dangerous teachers precisely, you know, 224 00:11:47,280 --> 00:11:50,720 Speaker 1: And what they fight about in academia is so stranguous 225 00:11:50,720 --> 00:11:54,040 Speaker 1: because what they the issues are so petty. How soon 226 00:11:54,080 --> 00:11:57,600 Speaker 1: after you got cold cocked by the dune six months 227 00:11:57,960 --> 00:12:02,600 Speaker 1: I went to Albany to work for the newly appointed 228 00:12:02,679 --> 00:12:08,000 Speaker 1: Commissioner of Corrections. This was seventy seven. I went there 229 00:12:08,040 --> 00:12:10,800 Speaker 1: to work as the director of work release programs in 230 00:12:10,800 --> 00:12:13,720 Speaker 1: New York. At that time was really building up its 231 00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:17,319 Speaker 1: investment in halfway houses work release as a way of 232 00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:22,040 Speaker 1: reducing the time that people spent inside upstate maximum security prisons. 233 00:12:22,040 --> 00:12:24,320 Speaker 1: What work released then and what was it what is 234 00:12:24,360 --> 00:12:27,120 Speaker 1: it now? Is basically the same. It's been decimated. It's 235 00:12:27,120 --> 00:12:32,240 Speaker 1: been decimated. Um reaction. No, actually it saves money. It's 236 00:12:32,320 --> 00:12:38,679 Speaker 1: less expensive reaction from who I think from the find crime. Absolutely, 237 00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:43,080 Speaker 1: during the last years of the Cuomo administration, I think 238 00:12:43,120 --> 00:12:45,800 Speaker 1: there may have been as many as six thousand inmates 239 00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:48,760 Speaker 1: in New York participating in work release programs. In New York, 240 00:12:49,440 --> 00:12:52,240 Speaker 1: for example, Well, they would literally they would leave the 241 00:12:52,280 --> 00:12:56,880 Speaker 1: upstate prisons. They come down to a minimum security facility 242 00:12:57,040 --> 00:12:59,800 Speaker 1: located in New York. There's still one on T Street, 243 00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:04,559 Speaker 1: just off Central Park. And how many people that one 244 00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:08,760 Speaker 1: houses about probably a hundred and fifty people. Yeah, and 245 00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:11,040 Speaker 1: they get assistance finding a job, and once they find 246 00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:13,920 Speaker 1: a job, they're allowed to leave the premises. They leave, 247 00:13:13,960 --> 00:13:16,600 Speaker 1: they go to work, they can do some personal chores, 248 00:13:16,640 --> 00:13:18,439 Speaker 1: and then they have to be backed by a certain time, 249 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:21,360 Speaker 1: and then if they're doing well after a period of time, 250 00:13:21,360 --> 00:13:23,240 Speaker 1: on weekends, they're allowed to go home for the weekend 251 00:13:23,240 --> 00:13:28,559 Speaker 1: and come back. Under Governor Pataki, they dramatically reduced the program. 252 00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:30,439 Speaker 1: I would say I'd be surprised if today there are 253 00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:32,480 Speaker 1: even six d people in work release in New York. 254 00:13:32,960 --> 00:13:36,400 Speaker 1: What do you attributed to Look, this business of corrections 255 00:13:36,480 --> 00:13:40,240 Speaker 1: and and releasing people from prison is essentially nothing more 256 00:13:40,240 --> 00:13:43,880 Speaker 1: than a risk management exercise. Right. We can never eliminate risk. 257 00:13:43,960 --> 00:13:45,520 Speaker 1: The only way to have no risk is to never 258 00:13:45,559 --> 00:13:47,840 Speaker 1: let anybody out of their cell. The many you let 259 00:13:47,960 --> 00:13:50,240 Speaker 1: one guy out of the cell, you're incurring some risk. 260 00:13:50,320 --> 00:13:52,520 Speaker 1: So how do you manage that risk? Well, if you 261 00:13:52,640 --> 00:13:57,520 Speaker 1: have six thousand guys in halfway houses, some of them 262 00:13:57,520 --> 00:13:59,840 Speaker 1: are going to screw up. How many New York state 263 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:03,959 Speaker 1: stilities are there today? Roughly, Gee, I don't know off hand. 264 00:14:04,320 --> 00:14:09,720 Speaker 1: There are probably forty between forty and fifty several state 265 00:14:09,720 --> 00:14:14,400 Speaker 1: prisons of varying sizes. Right, so yes, but I think 266 00:14:14,440 --> 00:14:16,959 Speaker 1: the story about New York that that we should feel 267 00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:21,320 Speaker 1: good about is that where in n five ninety six, 268 00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:24,480 Speaker 1: New York State had seventy thousand people in prison. And 269 00:14:24,560 --> 00:14:27,400 Speaker 1: mind you, when I started in nineteen sixty nine, there 270 00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:31,280 Speaker 1: were ten thousand people in prison, so there were seventy thousand. 271 00:14:31,320 --> 00:14:35,160 Speaker 1: Today it's down fifty the reform of the Rockfellow drug laws. 272 00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:37,600 Speaker 1: So it's there's no question in my mind the number 273 00:14:37,600 --> 00:14:41,000 Speaker 1: of people that are in prison is a function of 274 00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:45,120 Speaker 1: policy decisions made by elected officials. Who do you think 275 00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:47,760 Speaker 1: was ultimately responsible for bringing down those laws because a 276 00:14:47,800 --> 00:14:50,680 Speaker 1: lot of people that was just insane. Well, look, I mean, 277 00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:52,960 Speaker 1: I think that there was an advocacy the organization dropped 278 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:56,160 Speaker 1: the rock in New York. I think that then Governor 279 00:14:56,200 --> 00:15:00,000 Speaker 1: Patterson deserves credit. I'm not sure any other governor would 280 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:03,400 Speaker 1: have accepted that. And then also, I think you cannot 281 00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:07,480 Speaker 1: ignore the cost issue. The cost of imprisonment in New 282 00:15:07,560 --> 00:15:11,160 Speaker 1: York State today even is still two billion dollars a 283 00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:14,440 Speaker 1: year in UM. Just about every state in the country, 284 00:15:14,440 --> 00:15:17,280 Speaker 1: over the last twenty years, the cost of imprisonment has 285 00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:20,720 Speaker 1: been the fastest growing item in state budgets. In California, 286 00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:25,360 Speaker 1: which for years uh I was so proud of its 287 00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:29,440 Speaker 1: public university system reached the point where it was spending 288 00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:31,880 Speaker 1: more on its state prisons, which now hold a hundred 289 00:15:31,880 --> 00:15:34,960 Speaker 1: and sixty thou people, than it was on its state universities. 290 00:15:35,640 --> 00:15:37,600 Speaker 1: So I think that it was a perfect storm. All 291 00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:42,200 Speaker 1: the factors came together. The fiscal conservatives were driven by 292 00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:50,680 Speaker 1: the price issues and the country and that's happening is 293 00:15:50,680 --> 00:15:52,800 Speaker 1: that it's driven by cost and that it does not 294 00:15:52,920 --> 00:15:58,120 Speaker 1: reflect a genuine rethinking of our approach to crime and imprisonment. 295 00:15:58,160 --> 00:16:01,320 Speaker 1: So when you leave the edge vacation job and you 296 00:16:01,400 --> 00:16:03,720 Speaker 1: go work for the Department of Corrections in work release, 297 00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:06,120 Speaker 1: when is the first time as an official of the 298 00:16:06,160 --> 00:16:08,480 Speaker 1: state you walked into a prison in New York State? Oh, 299 00:16:08,520 --> 00:16:12,320 Speaker 1: I had walked into prisons as a parole officer. And 300 00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:14,560 Speaker 1: so with the first prison you walked, first person I 301 00:16:14,560 --> 00:16:17,000 Speaker 1: ever walked into a singing and describe that the first 302 00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:20,080 Speaker 1: time you walked into Well, it's Dickensian, right, I mean, 303 00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:24,440 Speaker 1: it's uh. It was built in eighteen nineteen or thereabouts. 304 00:16:24,680 --> 00:16:28,640 Speaker 1: The prisoners hued the stone off the palisades. The walls 305 00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:32,840 Speaker 1: of the original cell blocks still stand. When I was there, 306 00:16:33,560 --> 00:16:35,920 Speaker 1: New York still had a death penalty, and the guy 307 00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:39,480 Speaker 1: who took me around had been there since before the war. 308 00:16:40,120 --> 00:16:42,360 Speaker 1: And two things I remember about him when was he 309 00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:44,760 Speaker 1: said to me, kid, he says, there's nothing new under 310 00:16:44,800 --> 00:16:47,720 Speaker 1: the sun. In corrections, he says, everything we're doing today 311 00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:50,320 Speaker 1: was done years ago. We just called something different. And 312 00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:53,440 Speaker 1: he's right. Our approach to imprisonment hadn't changed much. It's 313 00:16:53,520 --> 00:16:56,760 Speaker 1: it's very much a nineteenth century invention. And the other 314 00:16:56,840 --> 00:16:58,600 Speaker 1: thing he was he took me to see the death 315 00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:03,600 Speaker 1: house where Ethel and Julius Rosenberg had been executed. Horn 316 00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:06,639 Speaker 1: was only five years old when the Rosenbergs were killed, 317 00:17:07,080 --> 00:17:10,280 Speaker 1: but growing up in a Jewish household in the nineteen fifties, 318 00:17:10,520 --> 00:17:14,960 Speaker 1: their death nonetheless had a powerful impact. Sixteen years after 319 00:17:15,040 --> 00:17:17,879 Speaker 1: first seeing the death house at sing Sing, Horn was 320 00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:20,760 Speaker 1: executive director of the New York State Division of Parole, 321 00:17:21,119 --> 00:17:24,560 Speaker 1: and his opinions had evolved. When I was a parole officer, 322 00:17:25,040 --> 00:17:27,640 Speaker 1: we had an expression trail um, nail him and jellum, 323 00:17:28,480 --> 00:17:30,000 Speaker 1: and the idea was that it was up to the 324 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:33,239 Speaker 1: paroley to do all the work, and if he screwed up, 325 00:17:33,280 --> 00:17:34,960 Speaker 1: we would catch him and lock him up. And we 326 00:17:35,160 --> 00:17:37,000 Speaker 1: had this belief that if we locked him up before 327 00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:39,879 Speaker 1: he committed a more serious crime, we were performing a 328 00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:44,760 Speaker 1: public service. I had come to the conclusion that parole 329 00:17:44,840 --> 00:17:48,240 Speaker 1: and the prison system generally wasn't doing enough to ease 330 00:17:48,280 --> 00:17:52,720 Speaker 1: the transition for people leaving prison. When an individual comes 331 00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:54,359 Speaker 1: out of prison, everybody gets out of prison, and they 332 00:17:54,400 --> 00:17:59,000 Speaker 1: have some statistical probability of succeeding or failing. And we 333 00:17:59,040 --> 00:18:02,919 Speaker 1: can improve these odds a little bit if we attend 334 00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:05,960 Speaker 1: to three things. One with sobriety. And I'm not a teetotler, 335 00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:09,119 Speaker 1: I don't make a moral judgment, but sobriety is a 336 00:18:09,160 --> 00:18:12,520 Speaker 1: primary condition. If you don't stay sober, I mean alcoholism 337 00:18:12,680 --> 00:18:16,040 Speaker 1: and drugs, you will fail. You have to have a 338 00:18:16,080 --> 00:18:18,439 Speaker 1: place to live. If you're living on the street, if 339 00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:21,280 Speaker 1: you're living in this in the shelter, you're gonna fail. Today. 340 00:18:21,320 --> 00:18:23,639 Speaker 1: Guys coming out of prison in New York City's housing market, 341 00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:27,440 Speaker 1: they can't afford a place to live, right, I mean 342 00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:29,560 Speaker 1: you say, oh, you get a job, Well, people coming 343 00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:33,960 Speaker 1: out of Yale can't afford exactly. And the prison system 344 00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:35,639 Speaker 1: has also as the rules, you can't have roommates who 345 00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:37,480 Speaker 1: are ex offenders, you know, the Yale guy and the 346 00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:40,360 Speaker 1: prisoner maybe should broom together. So I felt that we 347 00:18:40,520 --> 00:18:44,639 Speaker 1: needed to help men leaving prison stay sober. We needed 348 00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:46,679 Speaker 1: to help them find a place to live, and we 349 00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:49,040 Speaker 1: needed to help them find a job. It's a three 350 00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:51,879 Speaker 1: legged stool if you you know, if you can't stay sober, 351 00:18:51,920 --> 00:18:53,640 Speaker 1: you won't hold a job. If you don't have a job, 352 00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:56,560 Speaker 1: you can't pay the rent. And if you lose your 353 00:18:56,600 --> 00:18:58,800 Speaker 1: apartment and you're living on the street, you're hanging out 354 00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:01,320 Speaker 1: with guys, you're gonna get owned. So it's it's a 355 00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:05,639 Speaker 1: it's a vicious cycle and one that Horn strive to change. 356 00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:09,159 Speaker 1: Coming up in a minute, Martin Horn talks about serving 357 00:19:09,240 --> 00:19:12,800 Speaker 1: under Pennsylvania Governor Tom Ridge, his return to New York, 358 00:19:13,119 --> 00:19:16,399 Speaker 1: and his ultimate decision to leave public service because I 359 00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:18,879 Speaker 1: felt that I could not trust my workforce any longer. 360 00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:22,840 Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin, and you're listening to. Here's the thing, 361 00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:49,720 Speaker 1: this is Alec Baldwin. There were nineteen newly elected governors 362 00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:53,399 Speaker 1: across the country. A new administration often means new staff, 363 00:19:53,800 --> 00:19:58,560 Speaker 1: including new corrections directors. Martin Horn took advantage of the moment, 364 00:19:59,320 --> 00:20:03,800 Speaker 1: and so I started making cold call sending letters to 365 00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:07,359 Speaker 1: every newly elected governor. Dear Governor elect, here's my resume. 366 00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:09,720 Speaker 1: Wouldn't you like me to be your corrections director? I 367 00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:13,440 Speaker 1: called a friend in Pennsylvania, actually called the president of 368 00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:16,600 Speaker 1: the college I graduated from in Pennsylvania, and he said, gee, 369 00:20:16,640 --> 00:20:18,280 Speaker 1: I don't know, but i'll check and you call me back. 370 00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:20,000 Speaker 1: The next day he said, I spoke to the guy 371 00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:23,640 Speaker 1: that lobbies for our college in Harrisburg, and he says, 372 00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:25,600 Speaker 1: and here's what they said. They said, the newly elected governor, 373 00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:28,520 Speaker 1: they did not expect to get elected, you know, send 374 00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:30,840 Speaker 1: to me resume, here's the address of the transition office, 375 00:20:31,119 --> 00:20:33,480 Speaker 1: and put a post it note on top that says, 376 00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:35,280 Speaker 1: put this on the pile of corrections because they're so 377 00:20:35,359 --> 00:20:39,199 Speaker 1: disorganized they've got resumes coming in through the transoms. So 378 00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:43,960 Speaker 1: I did exactly that idea, Governor Elect Tom Ridge, let 379 00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:46,160 Speaker 1: me introduce myself. I'd like to be your corrections director. 380 00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:48,160 Speaker 1: Here's what I've done. Here's what I and I put 381 00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:50,080 Speaker 1: a post it note on it that says put it 382 00:20:50,119 --> 00:20:53,679 Speaker 1: on the pile for corrections. And two weeks later, his 383 00:20:53,800 --> 00:20:58,119 Speaker 1: deputy chief of staff called, how long were you in 384 00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:00,399 Speaker 1: Pennsylvania with Ridge? Well, I was in pennsyl manu with 385 00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:03,800 Speaker 1: Ridge for seven years. I was Commissioner of Correction for 386 00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:06,840 Speaker 1: six and then at the end of the sixth year, 387 00:21:07,359 --> 00:21:11,120 Speaker 1: he appointed me to be Secretary of Administration, which took 388 00:21:11,119 --> 00:21:12,879 Speaker 1: me out of the correction department and put me in 389 00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:19,800 Speaker 1: charge of labor relations. And I t if you stayed 390 00:21:19,800 --> 00:21:21,880 Speaker 1: there for seven years, did you develop a good relationship 391 00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:24,720 Speaker 1: with Ridge? I think the world of Tom Ridge. I 392 00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:26,680 Speaker 1: really think the world of Tom Ridge. Well, how would 393 00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:29,760 Speaker 1: you to the extent you can characterize the six years 394 00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:32,520 Speaker 1: you ran the system? And they were but for the 395 00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:36,359 Speaker 1: fact that I was in Harrisford, Pennsylvania, they were the 396 00:21:36,359 --> 00:21:39,520 Speaker 1: greatest six years of my professional career. Truth, Oh yeah, 397 00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:41,080 Speaker 1: I had. I had the best boss you could have. 398 00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:43,200 Speaker 1: He knew how to be a leader, and he knew 399 00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:44,639 Speaker 1: how to back up his people, and he knew how 400 00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:47,760 Speaker 1: to hold people accountable. And he was the world's best listener, 401 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:50,159 Speaker 1: better than any politician I've ever met. I think partly 402 00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:53,199 Speaker 1: because he has a hearing impairment, but he listened intently 403 00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:56,240 Speaker 1: and he briefed well. He had good values and good instincts. 404 00:21:56,240 --> 00:21:58,760 Speaker 1: I didn't agree with him on many issues politically, but 405 00:21:58,920 --> 00:22:00,879 Speaker 1: on on the core issue was I think he was 406 00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:03,520 Speaker 1: he was, and he was he was just a good person. 407 00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:05,359 Speaker 1: He was an approachable guy, and many of the elected 408 00:22:05,359 --> 00:22:08,320 Speaker 1: officials that I've worked for aren't that way. In whatever 409 00:22:08,359 --> 00:22:11,560 Speaker 1: way you can characterize this, how would you describe the 410 00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:14,320 Speaker 1: system you inherited when you went in and what would 411 00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:16,679 Speaker 1: you leave behind six years later? Well, I think you know. 412 00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:19,760 Speaker 1: Pennsylvania is interesting. Pennsylvania's sort of the birthplace of American corrections, 413 00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:23,920 Speaker 1: where the first prison, the Eastern State Penitentiary, which exists 414 00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:26,159 Speaker 1: to this day is still open as a museum, was 415 00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:29,320 Speaker 1: created in the early eighteen hundreds. The Pennsylvania Society for 416 00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:32,000 Speaker 1: the Alleviation of the Misery of Prisoners counted among its 417 00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:36,280 Speaker 1: members Benjamin Franklin. And there was a very strong Quaker 418 00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:41,080 Speaker 1: influence and a very different feel. When I got to Pennsylvania. 419 00:22:41,119 --> 00:22:45,400 Speaker 1: The prisons overwhelmingly were very different than the New York. 420 00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:47,960 Speaker 1: There was a level of civility in those prisons that 421 00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:49,720 Speaker 1: I had not experienced the New York State. In the 422 00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:52,240 Speaker 1: prisons in the seventies and eighties, you could walk through 423 00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:55,480 Speaker 1: the prisons and you could feel the antagonism and the tension. 424 00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:56,680 Speaker 1: You could cut it with a knife. I used to 425 00:22:56,720 --> 00:23:00,960 Speaker 1: say that to Oh, I don't know. I think part 426 00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:04,439 Speaker 1: of it the training of the tradition. Yeah, well that 427 00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:06,240 Speaker 1: brings us obviously to something that we would that we 428 00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:08,200 Speaker 1: didn't want to bring up, which was about this story 429 00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:12,320 Speaker 1: that broke about the program at or what happened there. Well, 430 00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:15,760 Speaker 1: I don't to this day. I'm not entirely sure what happened. 431 00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:17,479 Speaker 1: I will tell you this is something you think can 432 00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:21,080 Speaker 1: happen anywhere. Oh, absolutely, and it is I will say, 433 00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:24,400 Speaker 1: what caused me to decide to retire because I felt 434 00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:27,280 Speaker 1: that I could not trust my workforce any longer. In 435 00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:30,240 Speaker 1: October two thousand eight, and eighteen year old boy was 436 00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:34,440 Speaker 1: killed at Rikers Island by fellow inmates. The Village Voice 437 00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:38,000 Speaker 1: had been reporting for the past year about violence among prisoners. 438 00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:41,880 Speaker 1: At Rikers, guards were said to be looking the other way. 439 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:44,920 Speaker 1: In two thousand and twelve, the Voice obtained and published 440 00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:48,920 Speaker 1: graphic pictures of knife wounds and other injuries from inside 441 00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:52,640 Speaker 1: the jail walls. The largest jail system in the country 442 00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:56,240 Speaker 1: had a fight club that was condoned and even promoted 443 00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:59,919 Speaker 1: by jail officials. The program, as it was called, deliver 444 00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:04,399 Speaker 1: the most challenging moments of Horne's career. The story is 445 00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:08,080 Speaker 1: that a young man by the Christopher Robinson was put 446 00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:12,640 Speaker 1: into a particular housing unit, in the adolescent housing unit, 447 00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:15,440 Speaker 1: and he had been transferred there because in the unit 448 00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:18,280 Speaker 1: that he had been in previously, he had actually been 449 00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:24,479 Speaker 1: extorting from a weaker inmate and he was caught. So 450 00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:26,520 Speaker 1: his classification was increased and he was put into this 451 00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:28,960 Speaker 1: higher classification unit. So, you know, the sort of a 452 00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:31,720 Speaker 1: pecking ortist. So now he gets there and these guys 453 00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:33,880 Speaker 1: who had been there for a while, who was this click, 454 00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:37,000 Speaker 1: They step up to him and they said, we're going 455 00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:39,159 Speaker 1: to extort from you, and he says to them, on 456 00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:42,760 Speaker 1: the extorer here, you don't extort from me. So they 457 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:46,320 Speaker 1: tuned them up. They beat him up. Come to find 458 00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:49,560 Speaker 1: out that they had been extorting from other inmates and 459 00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:51,639 Speaker 1: that this has been going on for some time with 460 00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:57,240 Speaker 1: the prior knowledge and arguably the connivance of the officers, 461 00:24:57,280 --> 00:25:00,280 Speaker 1: and basically the officers had made a devil's bargain with 462 00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:02,440 Speaker 1: the image, look, you don't beat us up, you don't 463 00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:06,760 Speaker 1: attack us, and will let you run the ship exactly, which, 464 00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:08,960 Speaker 1: by the way, you know, the job that we ask 465 00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:15,240 Speaker 1: corrections officers to do are terrifying. Most officers, perhaps all 466 00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:19,560 Speaker 1: officers are scared out of their minds. We asked them 467 00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:29,880 Speaker 1: to supervise fifty often angry, sometimes mentally ill young men, 468 00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:33,440 Speaker 1: during the worst period of their lives, during the worst 469 00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:38,040 Speaker 1: period of their lives, who are craving some addictive substance 470 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:43,480 Speaker 1: in an open dormitory. And they're in that dormitory by themselves. 471 00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:49,960 Speaker 1: So how does this one individual assert himself. He does 472 00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:52,439 Speaker 1: not carry a weapon, he does not carry a baton. 473 00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:56,520 Speaker 1: There may be another officer in a controlled room some 474 00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:01,440 Speaker 1: ten ft away who can sound the alarm and ask 475 00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:03,640 Speaker 1: for help, but by the time help arrives, he can 476 00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:06,320 Speaker 1: be beaten to a bloody pulp. So it's two in 477 00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:10,280 Speaker 1: the morning. You're making around, walking around this dormitory of 478 00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:17,080 Speaker 1: fifty year old guys. In the back corner, you stumble 479 00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:20,480 Speaker 1: across two of them smoking weed. You have a decision 480 00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:22,639 Speaker 1: to make. You can turn your back and walk the 481 00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:25,960 Speaker 1: other way. You can try and bust them and run 482 00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:28,840 Speaker 1: the risk that their friends will pounce on you and 483 00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:33,400 Speaker 1: pummel you. So which happens, which certainly happens, how frequently 484 00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:36,439 Speaker 1: more frequently than we'd like it to. And that's another 485 00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:38,840 Speaker 1: reason that I left, because I feel the prisons are understaffed. 486 00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:42,080 Speaker 1: I think it's is wrong to ask one man, and 487 00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:45,320 Speaker 1: by the way, today more than the correction officers in 488 00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:47,960 Speaker 1: the City of New York or women. So when you 489 00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:51,840 Speaker 1: say that the two guys smoke weed, the corrections officer comes. 490 00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:53,919 Speaker 1: He sees you got a decision to make, and someone's 491 00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:56,280 Speaker 1: gonna pummel you. Do you have a system in place 492 00:26:56,680 --> 00:27:01,119 Speaker 1: where you know who's more disposed towards violent behavior inside 493 00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:03,679 Speaker 1: the facility when they come in, and why can't you 494 00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:07,919 Speaker 1: separate them before in an anticipatory way. Well, we have 495 00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:11,040 Speaker 1: what assistant we refer to a classification, and you basically 496 00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:13,760 Speaker 1: separate the most serious inmates and put them in maximum security. 497 00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:15,159 Speaker 1: But at the end of the day, somebody has to 498 00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:18,480 Speaker 1: supervise those maximum security inmates. What reforms do you think 499 00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:22,159 Speaker 1: could be made in supervising maximum security inmates? Generally? I 500 00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:24,760 Speaker 1: don't like to open dormitories. I think every inmate should 501 00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:27,040 Speaker 1: have his own cell. Cells do not have to be oppressive, 502 00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:29,359 Speaker 1: they do not have to be depressing. They can be 503 00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:32,080 Speaker 1: bright and airy, they don't have to be oppressed. They 504 00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:34,119 Speaker 1: have everybody in their own room. Everybody should have their 505 00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:35,840 Speaker 1: own room. I don't you don't selling, I don't, and 506 00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:38,560 Speaker 1: I don't. Well, well, I think that I don't think 507 00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:41,520 Speaker 1: that's cruel and unusual people, I think, well, I don't 508 00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:43,520 Speaker 1: like to use those terms cruel and unusual. And in fact, 509 00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:46,080 Speaker 1: the Supreme Court has said that there is no one man, 510 00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:49,880 Speaker 1: one sell rule living in the constitution. But I think 511 00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:52,960 Speaker 1: that we all have privacy needs to your knowledge, and 512 00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:55,439 Speaker 1: I would trust your opinion. Do the inmates do they 513 00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:57,200 Speaker 1: want their own cell? They would do? They prefer it, 514 00:27:57,480 --> 00:27:59,920 Speaker 1: some like company, some like company for the wrong where, 515 00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:03,960 Speaker 1: But most people, I think want their privacy. This is 516 00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:06,199 Speaker 1: your safety zone, right. Nobody can get you if you 517 00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:08,240 Speaker 1: want to come out. You know, different people go to 518 00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:10,480 Speaker 1: prisons and and they're terrified to be out in the 519 00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:12,879 Speaker 1: prison yard with all these other inmates. Is there a 520 00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:15,399 Speaker 1: constant pulsing sense of fear for people who were in 521 00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:18,800 Speaker 1: the prison yard not in a well run prison. Look, 522 00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:21,080 Speaker 1: it's the job of the officers to keep the inmates safe. 523 00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:22,880 Speaker 1: And if we don't keep the inmates safe, they'll find 524 00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:24,679 Speaker 1: ways to keep themselves safe. How will they do that. 525 00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:27,359 Speaker 1: They'll do that by joining gangs, and they'll do that 526 00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:31,040 Speaker 1: by creating In New York State a lot of gangs. 527 00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:33,800 Speaker 1: I can't comment on New York State prisons. I know 528 00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:36,240 Speaker 1: that it's certainly a problem in New York City, and 529 00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:38,160 Speaker 1: in the city would and they do these gangs. I guess, like, 530 00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:41,440 Speaker 1: if I got into prison tomorrow, is it just expected 531 00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:43,040 Speaker 1: I'm going to join a gang for my own pretential? 532 00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:45,320 Speaker 1: You see, this gets to the program. You're the new guy. 533 00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:49,160 Speaker 1: You come into this open dormitory of fifty inmates and 534 00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:51,800 Speaker 1: there's a group of maybe ten or fifteen of them. 535 00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:54,320 Speaker 1: Perhaps they know themselves from the street, perhaps they self 536 00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:58,000 Speaker 1: identify as bloods or crips or Latin Kings or Arian 537 00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:00,880 Speaker 1: Nation whatever. Not too many of those New York. But 538 00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:03,600 Speaker 1: if you're in California, sure, and they step to you 539 00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:06,120 Speaker 1: and they say, here's the deal. Are you with us? 540 00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:09,760 Speaker 1: And if you're stupid enough to walk into a dormitory 541 00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:12,440 Speaker 1: where there are twenty inmates who call themselves bloods and 542 00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:15,840 Speaker 1: you say, hell, I'm a crip, Well they're gonna do 543 00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:17,480 Speaker 1: the same thing to duty on the street. Get off 544 00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:23,120 Speaker 1: our turf. Prison and jail. Is this artificial scarcity that 545 00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:25,880 Speaker 1: we create, right, So there's by and large, little food, 546 00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:29,040 Speaker 1: there's no drugs, no girls, there's no sex. You know, 547 00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:33,040 Speaker 1: there's no money, and as a black market, and so 548 00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:36,720 Speaker 1: as with any place else, a group of inmates emerges 549 00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:38,920 Speaker 1: and they say, we control it, the simplest thing, and 550 00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:41,400 Speaker 1: this is what was happening. Certainly in the adolescent jail 551 00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:45,120 Speaker 1: where that program occurred. There were never enough chairs for 552 00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:48,080 Speaker 1: all the inmates, and a group of inmates would say, 553 00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:51,400 Speaker 1: on Saturday mornings, when this program is on, or when 554 00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:53,680 Speaker 1: this sporting event is on, there's one TV said it 555 00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:56,640 Speaker 1: is for the black guys, and you Spanish guys, you 556 00:29:56,720 --> 00:30:00,000 Speaker 1: stay in yourselves, because that's our time. Now in office, 557 00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:01,920 Speaker 1: Sir has a choice to make. First of all, he 558 00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:05,080 Speaker 1: should see it going on, and if he sees it, 559 00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:07,720 Speaker 1: take it, he should take that away. Were there any 560 00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:11,560 Speaker 1: prosecutions of any of the officers. Two officers actually were 561 00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:15,320 Speaker 1: convicted of gang assault, and five or seven of the 562 00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:18,360 Speaker 1: inmates ultimately were convicted. I don't know what the charge was, 563 00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:20,600 Speaker 1: but it might have been manslaughter. I mean, I don't 564 00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:23,840 Speaker 1: think they intended to kill Christopher Robinson. The troubling thing 565 00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:26,480 Speaker 1: was that there have been stories for some time. Uh 566 00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:28,480 Speaker 1: and this is what the voice documented that this had 567 00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:31,200 Speaker 1: been going on. There were bread crumbs, and that if 568 00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:33,360 Speaker 1: we had done a better job of following those bread crumbs, 569 00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:36,520 Speaker 1: we perhaps would have seen it earlier and prevented it 570 00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:38,400 Speaker 1: to people. You know, I'd like to get back to 571 00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:39,920 Speaker 1: another point you make, you know, you make the point 572 00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:43,600 Speaker 1: of it how we deal with white collar criminals or 573 00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:47,040 Speaker 1: with everybody uses the maid Off example. You know Martha Stewart, 574 00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:50,880 Speaker 1: you've mat her many times. I'm sure she's a lovely person. 575 00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:56,000 Speaker 1: So we know that some years ago she um lie 576 00:30:56,040 --> 00:31:01,120 Speaker 1: to a federal officer investigating supposed insider stock manipulation. She 577 00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:03,840 Speaker 1: was not convicted in the stock manipulation. She was convicted 578 00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:06,920 Speaker 1: of line to a federal officer, and she got what 579 00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:11,280 Speaker 1: four months in a federal prison in Alderson. So today, 580 00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:14,000 Speaker 1: but for her current troubles with Macy's and Pennies, she's 581 00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:16,760 Speaker 1: better off than she was when she went to prison. 582 00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:19,880 Speaker 1: What did society game by that? Let me suggest to you, 583 00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:24,440 Speaker 1: what if instead we had erected a ten foot high 584 00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:27,560 Speaker 1: platform in Times Square and we had climate control that 585 00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:29,760 Speaker 1: we enclosed it in plexiglass, we heated it, we air 586 00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:32,760 Speaker 1: conditioned it, and we put a stool, you know, like 587 00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:36,600 Speaker 1: a bar stool in it, and stocks well, I wouldn't 588 00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:39,760 Speaker 1: put her in stocks, but I every day you want 589 00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:41,840 Speaker 1: to be here at nine o'clock in the morning, and 590 00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:43,840 Speaker 1: you were to remain here until five in the afternoon. 591 00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:47,000 Speaker 1: You know, we'll protect you from the elements, and you'll 592 00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:49,040 Speaker 1: sit here with a sign around your neck that says 593 00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:53,200 Speaker 1: I'm a liar. You can bathe, but you can't get 594 00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:55,840 Speaker 1: all dressed up. You can't wear jewelry, you can't wear makeup. 595 00:31:56,400 --> 00:31:58,040 Speaker 1: You know, you can attend to all your personality that 596 00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:00,200 Speaker 1: sort of thing. We're not looking to harm you, but 597 00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:03,160 Speaker 1: you can't do all that stuff. And after you've sat 598 00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:06,760 Speaker 1: in Times Square for some period of time where the 599 00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:09,600 Speaker 1: world could see that you are a liar, you are 600 00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:12,440 Speaker 1: to perform community service for a year where you're to 601 00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:15,920 Speaker 1: go out to East New York and teach young women 602 00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:19,400 Speaker 1: about nutrition, about dressing for success, about all of the 603 00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:23,000 Speaker 1: things that you do so well. And in addition, you 604 00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:27,720 Speaker 1: have to pay back trouble or quadruple what you made 605 00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:31,280 Speaker 1: on this financial fraud. And that's it. But we're not 606 00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:35,880 Speaker 1: going to imprison you. Would we have had as great 607 00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:41,960 Speaker 1: a deterrent effect, would we have punished her, would we 608 00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:44,360 Speaker 1: have convinced her not to try to do it again, 609 00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:48,720 Speaker 1: would we have deterred others? I would argue yes, And 610 00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:50,880 Speaker 1: yet we don't do those things. We don't use shape 611 00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:54,480 Speaker 1: in our society. But I agree with you in terms 612 00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:58,120 Speaker 1: of what you're suggesting. However, we do have that now 613 00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:01,600 Speaker 1: we have the internet. As my friend once said, the 614 00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:06,200 Speaker 1: Internet represents the death of forgetting. Martha Stewart is forever 615 00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:10,400 Speaker 1: going to be referred to as you know, formerly incarcerated, 616 00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:12,320 Speaker 1: blah blah blah, that that's going to stay with the 617 00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:15,120 Speaker 1: rest of her life. But was she punished? My point 618 00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:20,480 Speaker 1: is simply this, as a society, our primary response to 619 00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:26,520 Speaker 1: crime is prison. It's the only tool. Understand you know 620 00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:29,640 Speaker 1: the aphorism that if the only tool on your belt 621 00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:32,840 Speaker 1: is a hammer, everything looks like an app Well, that's 622 00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:35,240 Speaker 1: that's true with respect to our approach to imprisonment. Um, 623 00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:37,360 Speaker 1: what do you think of the whole prison inc notion 624 00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:41,280 Speaker 1: and the privatization of prisons and the myriad of things 625 00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:47,560 Speaker 1: that arise from that. Um, it's a very complicated issue, 626 00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:51,280 Speaker 1: and it's very easy to be opposed to private prisons. 627 00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:57,600 Speaker 1: It's very easy to demonize private prisons. Private prisons arose 628 00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:02,440 Speaker 1: because governments needed them. Governments needed them because in the 629 00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:05,880 Speaker 1: eighties and nineties, the American prison population was growing faster 630 00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:11,400 Speaker 1: then government could create capacity for prisoners. I have visited 631 00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:14,560 Speaker 1: private prisons, and I have visited many public prisons, and 632 00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:19,160 Speaker 1: I have colleagues who work in the private prison industry. 633 00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:24,040 Speaker 1: Running a prison isn't rocket science. What they do is 634 00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:27,440 Speaker 1: they hire guys like me to run their prisons. And 635 00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:31,080 Speaker 1: a private prison will run as well or as poorly 636 00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:33,960 Speaker 1: as the government who contracts with it wants it to. 637 00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:37,160 Speaker 1: So if private prisons don't do what government asked them 638 00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:39,440 Speaker 1: to do, it's the fault of government for allowing them to. 639 00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:42,120 Speaker 1: But is it is it understood in the current culture 640 00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:45,200 Speaker 1: that private prisons it's kind of a wink and a 641 00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:47,719 Speaker 1: nod and we're not going to force these contra I 642 00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:49,920 Speaker 1: am sure that is true in some places and not 643 00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:53,880 Speaker 1: in others. Um. A little over five years ago, the 644 00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:56,879 Speaker 1: board of Correxins in the city allowed officials to listen 645 00:34:56,920 --> 00:34:59,200 Speaker 1: to in make telephone conversations. What do you think of that? 646 00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:02,239 Speaker 1: I asked, word, why? Why? What's going on that you 647 00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:04,520 Speaker 1: felt you needed to have that advantage? Well, for you 648 00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:06,440 Speaker 1: get you get to the question of the program inmates 649 00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:10,960 Speaker 1: are running their scams over the phones. Inmates are arranging 650 00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:13,719 Speaker 1: for drugs to be brought into the prison. Over there operating, 651 00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:17,239 Speaker 1: they're operating over the phones. There's no constitutional right to 652 00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:19,480 Speaker 1: even have phones in prisons. We could rip all the 653 00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:23,800 Speaker 1: phones out and we would be well within our constitutional authority. 654 00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:27,960 Speaker 1: The federal law is clear that with proper notice and 655 00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:31,759 Speaker 1: the consent of at least one party, a conversation can 656 00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:35,120 Speaker 1: be listened to and recorded. I felt that by giving 657 00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:37,600 Speaker 1: the inmates ample opportunity, Basically we said to them, Look, 658 00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:41,080 Speaker 1: by choosing to use our phones that we're making available 659 00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:43,759 Speaker 1: to you, you are waiving your right to privacy. If 660 00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:46,680 Speaker 1: you want to retain your right to privacy, write a letter. 661 00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:52,120 Speaker 1: If you had um three things that you were going 662 00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:59,120 Speaker 1: to change about the federal state city, what would you 663 00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:03,120 Speaker 1: change about the way we deal with convicted Well, so 664 00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:05,080 Speaker 1: that's that. That excludes the city. Let's talk about federal 665 00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:09,280 Speaker 1: and federal. The first thing I do is I legalized drugs. 666 00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:12,480 Speaker 1: When you say that, though, I mean obviously there are 667 00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:15,040 Speaker 1: people who inside that argument talking about cocaine and her 668 00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:17,520 Speaker 1: you don't care you'd legalize. I would legalized drugs. We 669 00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:20,520 Speaker 1: couldn't possibly do worse than we're doing now, right, But 670 00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:22,920 Speaker 1: what would you do to take it even further? I mean, 671 00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:24,600 Speaker 1: you've been involved with the system for a long one time. 672 00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:27,200 Speaker 1: You'd have the government dispensing cocaine and heroin. I would 673 00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:30,399 Speaker 1: sell it in the liquor stores, right, and I would 674 00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:32,480 Speaker 1: tax the hell out of it. You just license it 675 00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:33,960 Speaker 1: and sell it. I mean, I agree with you as 676 00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:36,040 Speaker 1: far as I would take all the money we're spending 677 00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:37,600 Speaker 1: and all the money we're going to make, and I 678 00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:40,680 Speaker 1: would reinvest it in prevention. You know, I grew up 679 00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:45,439 Speaker 1: never using a seatbelt, and to this day I'll drive 680 00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:49,480 Speaker 1: around without a seatbelt. My kids were now that you know, 681 00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:52,440 Speaker 1: I e suppose my son when he was two years old, 682 00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:54,400 Speaker 1: if I started to back the car out before he 683 00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:58,520 Speaker 1: was buckled in, would have a tantrum. Right, if your 684 00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:03,160 Speaker 1: kids are smoking today, we can prevent, we can provide treatment, 685 00:37:03,719 --> 00:37:06,800 Speaker 1: and there will be people and there will be to spare. 686 00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:09,839 Speaker 1: Bobby Kennedy had the funniest line of all. Brobbly Kennedy said, 687 00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:11,440 Speaker 1: if you ever of the day, would we do. We're 688 00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:13,400 Speaker 1: gonna bend down with a plastic bag and pick up 689 00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:15,360 Speaker 1: your dog's poop on the street and throw it in 690 00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:17,640 Speaker 1: the whoever thought that was you, you know, fifty years 691 00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:20,880 Speaker 1: at least time we recycle our tin cans. So I 692 00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:27,920 Speaker 1: would legalize drugs. I would reduce the length of time 693 00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:31,400 Speaker 1: that people who do commit crimes, violent crimes, well, for 694 00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:37,759 Speaker 1: all crimes, but for those people who scare us the most. 695 00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:42,239 Speaker 1: John Mohammad, remember the Washington sniper. Right, that guy scares me. Right, 696 00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:44,759 Speaker 1: he was just shooting people at random. You have to 697 00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:48,560 Speaker 1: incapacitate him forever, right, Jeffrey Dahmer, Right, you had to 698 00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:54,040 Speaker 1: incapac mentally ill. That's a whole different story. That's that's 699 00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:57,200 Speaker 1: item four. Because they don't belong in prison, right. The 700 00:37:57,400 --> 00:38:02,640 Speaker 1: great shame of our society today is that the people 701 00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:06,320 Speaker 1: in prison have a mental illness. More people receive acute 702 00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:09,799 Speaker 1: mental health care in the jails in this country than 703 00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:13,960 Speaker 1: they do in the mental hospitals. Rikers Island provides more 704 00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:19,040 Speaker 1: acute medical psychiatric care than Bellevue. The largest provider of 705 00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:21,359 Speaker 1: acute psychiatric care in the United States is the Los 706 00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:24,760 Speaker 1: Angeles County Jail. Mentally ill people don't belong in jail, 707 00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:26,800 Speaker 1: and it is a scandal, and you're not allowed to 708 00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:30,920 Speaker 1: You're not allowed to give violent inmates in any kind 709 00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:34,000 Speaker 1: of a system drugs. You're not allowed to drug them 710 00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:36,440 Speaker 1: or are you well if if if they're being treated 711 00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:40,480 Speaker 1: for mental illness, people mentally just you're not but you're 712 00:38:40,520 --> 00:38:42,920 Speaker 1: not even drug them to quiet them down. You can't 713 00:38:43,080 --> 00:38:44,600 Speaker 1: know without a court order. I mean you can if 714 00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:46,600 Speaker 1: there's a court order, and you do. They get court 715 00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:50,240 Speaker 1: orders very rarely, very rarely. Don't equate violence with mental illness. 716 00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:52,040 Speaker 1: What have we talking about? These guys that are violent. 717 00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:55,480 Speaker 1: There are some people who need to be incapacitated, and 718 00:38:55,520 --> 00:38:57,600 Speaker 1: I would incapacitate And that doesn't bother me. A guy 719 00:38:57,600 --> 00:39:02,000 Speaker 1: who is a serial rapist, as serial child molester doesn't 720 00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:06,080 Speaker 1: bother me in the least. Everybody but everybody else, the 721 00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:09,440 Speaker 1: guy who commits a robbery, the guy who commits a burglary, 722 00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:13,160 Speaker 1: the guy who steals your car that you know, uh, 723 00:39:13,360 --> 00:39:14,920 Speaker 1: they don't to go to prison for as long as 724 00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:18,560 Speaker 1: they Number three, um number three is I would change 725 00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:21,240 Speaker 1: the way we release people from prison. I would actually 726 00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:24,840 Speaker 1: do away with the parole boards and discretionary parole. I 727 00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:28,120 Speaker 1: would make every sense a determinate sense. I would say 728 00:39:28,120 --> 00:39:29,839 Speaker 1: you're gonna be under the control of the state for 729 00:39:29,920 --> 00:39:32,319 Speaker 1: a period of time. Let's just say, for argument sake, 730 00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:35,080 Speaker 1: five years. For the first three of those years, you're 731 00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:36,840 Speaker 1: gonna go to prison, and we'll leave it up to 732 00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:39,840 Speaker 1: the corrections people to decide back someimum medium minimum. But 733 00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:41,719 Speaker 1: at the end of three years, you're coming back to 734 00:39:41,760 --> 00:39:44,080 Speaker 1: the community. And when you come back to the community, 735 00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:46,399 Speaker 1: you're gonna live in a halfway house. And while you're 736 00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:48,360 Speaker 1: in the halfway house, we are going to help you 737 00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:51,640 Speaker 1: connect with a relapse prevention program to prevent your relapse 738 00:39:51,640 --> 00:39:53,839 Speaker 1: to drug abuse. And we're gonna help you to get 739 00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:55,799 Speaker 1: involved in an a a program, and we're gonna help 740 00:39:55,800 --> 00:39:57,840 Speaker 1: you find a job, and you're not gonna have to 741 00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:00,120 Speaker 1: pay us any money. You're gonna save the money you 742 00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:02,640 Speaker 1: earn on your job, and we're gonna help you find 743 00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:04,680 Speaker 1: a place to live. And when you've saved enough money 744 00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:07,040 Speaker 1: to pay a month's rent in a month's deposit and 745 00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:10,360 Speaker 1: maybe another month, you can go home and live on 746 00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:12,239 Speaker 1: your own, and we're done with you. What's wrong with 747 00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:16,560 Speaker 1: the state, for example, building a facility that is an 748 00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:19,439 Speaker 1: after care facility for prisoners to come and to live, 749 00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:22,000 Speaker 1: where they go to work and they continue to produce 750 00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:26,000 Speaker 1: things that the state needs. Is that a possibility. That's possible. 751 00:40:26,160 --> 00:40:29,040 Speaker 1: I mean I I'm a believer that these communities have 752 00:40:29,080 --> 00:40:33,200 Speaker 1: to be small. I cannot resemble prisoners. They should be normalizing. 753 00:40:33,239 --> 00:40:35,440 Speaker 1: The point is that people need to be normalized as 754 00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:37,239 Speaker 1: the return of the community. So I would. I would 755 00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:40,799 Speaker 1: have fixed sentences and that way. What happens now is 756 00:40:41,160 --> 00:40:45,520 Speaker 1: Johnny Jones goes to prison for uh five to fifteen years? 757 00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:49,920 Speaker 1: Those are five or is at fifteen if parol parols five, 758 00:40:49,960 --> 00:40:52,319 Speaker 1: the victims says, my god, I thought he was going 759 00:40:52,360 --> 00:40:55,680 Speaker 1: away for fifteen years. Or he goes in front of 760 00:40:55,680 --> 00:40:58,359 Speaker 1: the parole board and they say, Johnny, we're gonna hold 761 00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:00,520 Speaker 1: you for five w years. This is what I did guilty, 762 00:41:00,520 --> 00:41:02,760 Speaker 1: And my lawyer told me that if I did everything 763 00:41:02,840 --> 00:41:04,239 Speaker 1: right and kept my nose clean, I'd be out in 764 00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:06,320 Speaker 1: five and the proberts as well. We were in the 765 00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:09,239 Speaker 1: room when that deal got made. We're not bound by that. 766 00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:12,680 Speaker 1: So the whole system currently is deceptive, causes people to 767 00:41:12,719 --> 00:41:16,479 Speaker 1: distrust the system, undermines respect for the rule of law, 768 00:41:17,040 --> 00:41:20,160 Speaker 1: and it doesn't allow us to release individuals from prison 769 00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:22,799 Speaker 1: in a planful way. So I would Those are the 770 00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:24,960 Speaker 1: three things I would change. Are you glad You're done. 771 00:41:24,960 --> 00:41:27,680 Speaker 1: Are you glad you're walking away from that? It was? 772 00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:30,880 Speaker 1: It was, It was a fascinating career. I am absolutely 773 00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:34,720 Speaker 1: glad I'm done. You are um? Was it spiritually deadening 774 00:41:34,760 --> 00:41:37,000 Speaker 1: in other ways as well? I mean, because I can't 775 00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:39,719 Speaker 1: think of anything more horrific than when I was in prison. 776 00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:41,680 Speaker 1: At some level, there is no place else a grown 777 00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:43,960 Speaker 1: man could have as much fun. When I was the 778 00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:46,879 Speaker 1: warden of Hudson Prison, I used to say to people 779 00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:49,640 Speaker 1: that it was a cross between being the headmaster of 780 00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:52,200 Speaker 1: a somewhat down on its heels boys school and the 781 00:41:52,280 --> 00:41:55,719 Speaker 1: King of England, because you were in charge and you 782 00:41:55,760 --> 00:41:58,279 Speaker 1: had to deal with everything from the pipes in this 783 00:41:58,360 --> 00:42:02,839 Speaker 1: hundred year old facility breaking to making sure that there 784 00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:05,120 Speaker 1: was adequate food and that the food was well prepared, 785 00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:07,800 Speaker 1: to making sure that there were no contagious diseases, that 786 00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:11,000 Speaker 1: tuberculosis didn't spread, that measles didn't spread, that people got 787 00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:13,719 Speaker 1: psychiatric care. You had to deal with labor relations, you 788 00:42:13,719 --> 00:42:15,440 Speaker 1: had to deal with ethical issues, you had to deal 789 00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:18,399 Speaker 1: with legal issue with a lord high governor. And it 790 00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:21,200 Speaker 1: was fascinating and in that respect I couldn't have had 791 00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:34,840 Speaker 1: a better career today. Martin Horn is a Distinguished Lecturer 792 00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:38,120 Speaker 1: in Corrections at John Jay College and serves that the 793 00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:43,239 Speaker 1: executive director of the Permanent Sentencing Commission, which works to clarify, simplify, 794 00:42:43,640 --> 00:42:50,600 Speaker 1: and create New York States sentencing guidelines. This is Alec 795 00:42:50,640 --> 00:43:06,880 Speaker 1: Baldwin and you're listening to here's the thing. Four four