1 00:00:15,410 --> 00:00:24,290 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Rebecca Perago is in her forties. For decades now, 2 00:00:24,410 --> 00:00:28,450 Speaker 1: she's been married to her beloved William. Together they've carved 3 00:00:28,490 --> 00:00:31,930 Speaker 1: out a hard but happy life in their small village 4 00:00:32,050 --> 00:00:35,770 Speaker 1: in the north of England. They work side by side 5 00:00:35,810 --> 00:00:40,810 Speaker 1: as clothiers, beating, combing, dying and spinning the wool lay 6 00:00:40,850 --> 00:00:45,530 Speaker 1: by at the market of all selling it on Alas. 7 00:00:45,610 --> 00:00:50,250 Speaker 1: As the factories grow in nearby Leeds, their little cottage 8 00:00:50,250 --> 00:00:54,530 Speaker 1: industry is dwindling. But that's not all they've got to 9 00:00:54,570 --> 00:00:58,570 Speaker 1: worry about. For some time now, Rebecca's been feeling an 10 00:00:58,690 --> 00:01:03,130 Speaker 1: uncomfortable sensation in her breast whenever she lies down, She 11 00:01:03,210 --> 00:01:06,890 Speaker 1: tells William, she feels her strange fluttering at her side 12 00:01:06,930 --> 00:01:12,890 Speaker 1: and experiences a shortness of bread. It's eighteen o six. 13 00:01:13,970 --> 00:01:17,610 Speaker 1: Great advances are being made in medical science, but fancy 14 00:01:17,690 --> 00:01:22,090 Speaker 1: doctors aren't for the likes of Rebeccah. Besides, she's already 15 00:01:22,130 --> 00:01:26,490 Speaker 1: made her own diagnosis. The cause, she is certain, is 16 00:01:26,530 --> 00:01:33,450 Speaker 1: an evil wish. As luck would have it, Rebecca's young 17 00:01:33,570 --> 00:01:38,370 Speaker 1: niece is visiting her ailing aunt. She works as a 18 00:01:38,410 --> 00:01:41,050 Speaker 1: servant in Leeds and has heard of a woman called 19 00:01:41,210 --> 00:01:46,210 Speaker 1: Mary Bateman who can remove curses. The helpful niece visits 20 00:01:46,250 --> 00:01:49,930 Speaker 1: Mary and yes she can help, but she'll need a 21 00:01:49,970 --> 00:01:53,890 Speaker 1: flannel petticoat or any item worn next to the skin. 22 00:01:55,330 --> 00:01:58,730 Speaker 1: The dutiful William journeys to Leeds and delivers one of 23 00:01:58,770 --> 00:02:02,090 Speaker 1: his wife's garments to Mary, who paws over it on 24 00:02:02,170 --> 00:02:07,730 Speaker 1: the table of her grimy slum dwelling. She grimly confirms 25 00:02:08,010 --> 00:02:17,370 Speaker 1: that Rebecca is indeed cursed. Mary can help, though she 26 00:02:17,450 --> 00:02:21,490 Speaker 1: knows a woman in Scarborough who can lift spells. All 27 00:02:21,570 --> 00:02:25,930 Speaker 1: the paragoes need to do is exactly what she says. 28 00:02:28,250 --> 00:03:02,370 Speaker 1: I'm Tim Harford and you're listening to cautionary Tales. The 29 00:03:02,450 --> 00:03:06,090 Speaker 1: story of this mysterious healer features in a new book 30 00:03:06,170 --> 00:03:09,650 Speaker 1: by Maddie Pelling, who's a historian and the co host 31 00:03:09,730 --> 00:03:12,970 Speaker 1: of the after Dark podcast. Maddie, I'm afraid if I 32 00:03:13,050 --> 00:03:15,810 Speaker 1: give people the title of your book, they they will know, 33 00:03:16,210 --> 00:03:16,890 Speaker 1: particularly our. 34 00:03:16,810 --> 00:03:18,410 Speaker 2: Loyalists, a little bit of a giveaway. 35 00:03:18,650 --> 00:03:22,170 Speaker 1: Yeah, although this is cautionly tales, people know that there 36 00:03:22,250 --> 00:03:25,330 Speaker 1: is trouble in store. So the full title of your 37 00:03:25,330 --> 00:03:29,170 Speaker 1: book is Hoax, Truth and Lies in the Age of Enlightenment. 38 00:03:30,010 --> 00:03:34,090 Speaker 1: So why did you want to write it? And what 39 00:03:34,210 --> 00:03:38,170 Speaker 1: is it about this period of intellectual and cultural flourishing 40 00:03:39,330 --> 00:03:42,650 Speaker 1: that was so fertile for hoaxes. 41 00:03:43,170 --> 00:03:44,690 Speaker 2: Well, I think the first thing to say about the 42 00:03:44,730 --> 00:03:47,770 Speaker 2: period of Enlightenment, the eighteenth century is we think of 43 00:03:47,770 --> 00:03:50,410 Speaker 2: it very much as a rational time, as a time 44 00:03:50,450 --> 00:03:54,810 Speaker 2: of scientific progress, of superstition being banished. And you know, 45 00:03:54,850 --> 00:03:57,290 Speaker 2: the term itself suggests that a light is being shone 46 00:03:57,290 --> 00:04:00,450 Speaker 2: in the dark and people are moving forward, but of 47 00:04:00,490 --> 00:04:02,850 Speaker 2: course that's not the case. And what I love as 48 00:04:02,890 --> 00:04:05,170 Speaker 2: a historian of the eighteenth century is that it is 49 00:04:05,250 --> 00:04:08,010 Speaker 2: a time of chaos, right, It's a time of revolution. 50 00:04:08,090 --> 00:04:10,090 Speaker 2: It's a time when the world has turned on its head. 51 00:04:10,730 --> 00:04:15,850 Speaker 2: Monarchs are being decapitated, wars being fought on land and sea, 52 00:04:16,370 --> 00:04:21,170 Speaker 2: and the hierarchies of this world that on the surface 53 00:04:21,170 --> 00:04:26,690 Speaker 2: seem to be very strict, very straightforward, are actually being 54 00:04:26,770 --> 00:04:32,330 Speaker 2: undermined constantly. And into this comes the hoaxer. And I 55 00:04:32,330 --> 00:04:35,610 Speaker 2: think the eighteenth century and this specific period of a 56 00:04:35,610 --> 00:04:38,810 Speaker 2: so called Enlightenment, this idea that everything is is kind 57 00:04:38,810 --> 00:04:42,650 Speaker 2: of sensible. Really, I think it chimes with the moment 58 00:04:42,650 --> 00:04:45,370 Speaker 2: we live in now, this very sort of confident moment 59 00:04:45,490 --> 00:04:49,330 Speaker 2: in which we are technologically savvy, we're moving forward, we 60 00:04:49,370 --> 00:04:52,850 Speaker 2: are proclaiming that we've worked out how everything works. We 61 00:04:53,370 --> 00:04:56,570 Speaker 2: have artificial intelligence to aid us in our everyday life. 62 00:04:56,610 --> 00:04:59,490 Speaker 2: Everything is fine, Surely nothing's going to go wrong. And 63 00:04:59,610 --> 00:05:02,930 Speaker 2: yet we also live in this post truth moment, right, 64 00:05:02,970 --> 00:05:06,010 Speaker 2: We live in this world in which we cannot believe 65 00:05:06,010 --> 00:05:10,330 Speaker 2: our own eyes. Everyone from politicians to journalist to writers 66 00:05:10,330 --> 00:05:13,730 Speaker 2: to historians, everyone is struggling with what the truth is. 67 00:05:13,770 --> 00:05:15,650 Speaker 2: It's become this fluid concept. 68 00:05:16,010 --> 00:05:18,170 Speaker 1: Are you suggesting that there are lessons that we can 69 00:05:18,250 --> 00:05:19,290 Speaker 1: learn today from history? 70 00:05:19,370 --> 00:05:20,410 Speaker 2: I think there might be. 71 00:05:22,090 --> 00:05:26,290 Speaker 1: There was one particular hoaxer that I wanted to talk 72 00:05:26,330 --> 00:05:30,210 Speaker 1: about before we get to the main event, because it's 73 00:05:30,290 --> 00:05:33,370 Speaker 1: just so delightful, the bottle contract to tell me about 74 00:05:33,370 --> 00:05:34,130 Speaker 1: the bottle conjurer. 75 00:05:34,370 --> 00:05:37,730 Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, so this is a hoax that I start 76 00:05:37,770 --> 00:05:40,490 Speaker 2: the book with. So the term hoax itself really comes 77 00:05:40,490 --> 00:05:43,090 Speaker 2: into play in the eighteenth century simply because there are 78 00:05:43,090 --> 00:05:45,890 Speaker 2: so many hoaxes that take place, and it seems to 79 00:05:45,970 --> 00:05:48,690 Speaker 2: come from hocus Pocus, which is this idea of the 80 00:05:48,730 --> 00:05:51,450 Speaker 2: street conjurer or the magician that you might find on 81 00:05:51,530 --> 00:05:54,650 Speaker 2: stage in a theater. And in the seventeen forties there 82 00:05:54,690 --> 00:05:58,410 Speaker 2: is a magician like this who advertises across the city 83 00:05:58,410 --> 00:06:02,130 Speaker 2: of London that he is going to arrive at Haymarket 84 00:06:02,130 --> 00:06:04,410 Speaker 2: Theater on a certain night, that he is going to 85 00:06:05,330 --> 00:06:07,570 Speaker 2: drink the contents of a wine bottle and then fit 86 00:06:07,690 --> 00:06:10,450 Speaker 2: himself into the wine bottle. This is an ordinary wine bottle, 87 00:06:10,650 --> 00:06:12,650 Speaker 2: and he's then going to sing to the audience and 88 00:06:12,690 --> 00:06:15,690 Speaker 2: tell them their fortunes. So up until this point, there 89 00:06:15,730 --> 00:06:20,290 Speaker 2: is an understanding between magical performance like this and the audience, 90 00:06:20,370 --> 00:06:22,370 Speaker 2: right that you are going to suspend your disbelief for 91 00:06:22,410 --> 00:06:24,090 Speaker 2: the duration of this performance, that you know you're going 92 00:06:24,130 --> 00:06:25,650 Speaker 2: to see something that is a trick. You're going to 93 00:06:25,690 --> 00:06:26,970 Speaker 2: go home and you're not going to lie awake at. 94 00:06:26,970 --> 00:06:29,930 Speaker 1: Nightgoing actually saw the Lady in Half exactly. 95 00:06:30,050 --> 00:06:33,330 Speaker 2: Yes, we all know that that is not what's happening. However, 96 00:06:33,570 --> 00:06:36,090 Speaker 2: that contract is about to be broken, and this is 97 00:06:36,130 --> 00:06:38,250 Speaker 2: absolutely the way into all of this chaos of the 98 00:06:38,250 --> 00:06:40,650 Speaker 2: eighteenth century when all the contracts are being kind of 99 00:06:40,770 --> 00:06:43,370 Speaker 2: ripped up and the rules being rewritten. And so what 100 00:06:43,450 --> 00:06:45,890 Speaker 2: happens is hundreds of people come down to the Haymarket 101 00:06:45,930 --> 00:06:49,330 Speaker 2: Theater on this night and there is a wine bottle 102 00:06:49,370 --> 00:06:53,770 Speaker 2: on the table on the stage and as adverts as advertised, 103 00:06:53,810 --> 00:06:58,170 Speaker 2: so far, so good, but nobody comes, and people start 104 00:06:58,210 --> 00:07:00,050 Speaker 2: to get pissed off, as you can imagine, they've paid 105 00:07:00,090 --> 00:07:04,610 Speaker 2: for these tickets, and people start shouting, throwing things onto 106 00:07:04,610 --> 00:07:08,650 Speaker 2: the stage. Someone throws a lit candle, the curtain starts 107 00:07:08,650 --> 00:07:10,410 Speaker 2: to go up in flames. Then it's an all out 108 00:07:10,450 --> 00:07:13,370 Speaker 2: riot and the soldiers have to be called to calm 109 00:07:13,530 --> 00:07:17,130 Speaker 2: the crowds. And it's really a moment in which this 110 00:07:17,290 --> 00:07:20,290 Speaker 2: society that is going into this moment of enlightenment and 111 00:07:20,330 --> 00:07:24,130 Speaker 2: claiming that it is rational and sensible, realizes it's been duped. 112 00:07:24,690 --> 00:07:27,570 Speaker 1: I would be annoyed there because you don't respect me 113 00:07:27,730 --> 00:07:29,570 Speaker 1: enough to even do an elaborate hoax. 114 00:07:29,730 --> 00:07:33,450 Speaker 2: Yes, it's just a simple scalm exactly. And what we 115 00:07:33,490 --> 00:07:35,490 Speaker 2: get is, you know, this idea of the hoax or 116 00:07:35,530 --> 00:07:39,130 Speaker 2: the trickster slipping suddenly from the stage where it's safe, 117 00:07:39,170 --> 00:07:41,570 Speaker 2: we can see the trick we understand that it's fake, 118 00:07:41,690 --> 00:07:43,690 Speaker 2: and suddenly they're in the audience amongst us. We don't 119 00:07:43,730 --> 00:07:45,130 Speaker 2: know who they are, We never find out who the 120 00:07:45,130 --> 00:07:49,450 Speaker 2: bottle coundra is or wasn't, And suddenly the trickster can 121 00:07:49,490 --> 00:07:53,770 Speaker 2: be anyone, and the gloves are off, essentially, and this 122 00:07:53,930 --> 00:07:56,490 Speaker 2: opens the gate for all kinds of chaos. 123 00:07:57,330 --> 00:08:04,170 Speaker 1: So that's funny. Less funny is Mary Bateman. So tell 124 00:08:04,250 --> 00:08:08,010 Speaker 1: us about Mary Bateman? Where did she come from? What 125 00:08:08,050 --> 00:08:08,850 Speaker 1: was she like growing up? 126 00:08:09,130 --> 00:08:11,730 Speaker 2: So she is one of three women hoaxes that I 127 00:08:11,770 --> 00:08:14,530 Speaker 2: focus on in the book, and she is the one 128 00:08:14,570 --> 00:08:17,650 Speaker 2: who I think is most psychologically interesting. And she's also 129 00:08:17,690 --> 00:08:20,810 Speaker 2: the person who does commit pretty heinous acts. She's someone 130 00:08:20,850 --> 00:08:23,890 Speaker 2: I suppose who traditionally would have slipped away out of 131 00:08:23,890 --> 00:08:27,250 Speaker 2: the historical record were it not for the lies that 132 00:08:27,290 --> 00:08:29,330 Speaker 2: she told and the crimes that she goes on to commit. 133 00:08:29,650 --> 00:08:32,170 Speaker 2: So we know an astonishing amount of detail about her 134 00:08:32,210 --> 00:08:35,130 Speaker 2: early life for someone of her class. So she's born 135 00:08:35,290 --> 00:08:39,290 Speaker 2: in a small village outside Thirsk in North Yorkshire, which 136 00:08:39,450 --> 00:08:41,250 Speaker 2: I used to live in Thirsk very briefly, and this 137 00:08:41,330 --> 00:08:44,050 Speaker 2: is how I kind of came across her story. And 138 00:08:44,130 --> 00:08:46,250 Speaker 2: she has a really rural upbringing. 139 00:08:46,450 --> 00:08:49,690 Speaker 1: She her parents, she's born in seventeen sixty eight. 140 00:08:49,890 --> 00:08:52,570 Speaker 2: Yes, yes, So we're sort of in the middle of 141 00:08:52,610 --> 00:08:55,530 Speaker 2: this quite flourishing you know, in cities like Edinburgh and London, 142 00:08:56,010 --> 00:09:01,090 Speaker 2: hugely sort of international cosmopolitan places. Medicine is advancing, religion 143 00:09:01,170 --> 00:09:02,930 Speaker 2: is being debated, and sort of giving way to the 144 00:09:02,970 --> 00:09:06,610 Speaker 2: secular world. But in somewhere like rural North Yorkshire, there 145 00:09:06,610 --> 00:09:09,690 Speaker 2: are still superstitions. There's an annual fair that comes to 146 00:09:09,730 --> 00:09:12,450 Speaker 2: her village every year, and you have travelers who are 147 00:09:12,450 --> 00:09:15,810 Speaker 2: coming in, you have horse sellers. It's this huge celebration. 148 00:09:15,930 --> 00:09:18,610 Speaker 2: And so Mary grows up in this with her siblings, 149 00:09:19,210 --> 00:09:21,810 Speaker 2: and she would have seen at this fair magical tricks, 150 00:09:21,850 --> 00:09:25,730 Speaker 2: a little bit like the bottle Conjurer, hopefully magical tricks 151 00:09:25,730 --> 00:09:28,530 Speaker 2: to where they actually turn up. She's also crucially seeing 152 00:09:28,530 --> 00:09:32,690 Speaker 2: people have their fortunes told, and this really seems to 153 00:09:32,730 --> 00:09:34,890 Speaker 2: spark something in her mind, and this is something that 154 00:09:34,930 --> 00:09:37,490 Speaker 2: she pursues and carries on throughout her life, this idea 155 00:09:37,650 --> 00:09:42,530 Speaker 2: of reading someone, seeing what they require from you, and 156 00:09:42,570 --> 00:09:46,410 Speaker 2: giving it to them. And it's a form of manipulation, 157 00:09:46,570 --> 00:09:50,010 Speaker 2: certainly in Mary's case, that is going to shape the 158 00:09:50,050 --> 00:09:52,410 Speaker 2: course of her life and the course of her victims' lives. 159 00:09:52,850 --> 00:09:55,770 Speaker 2: She also has these sort of strange moments in childhood. 160 00:09:56,250 --> 00:09:58,770 Speaker 2: She has this strange incident we are told later on, 161 00:09:58,970 --> 00:10:02,410 Speaker 2: involving some red shoes, and I think this tells us 162 00:10:02,410 --> 00:10:04,170 Speaker 2: a lot about her. And we're taking this with a 163 00:10:04,170 --> 00:10:08,450 Speaker 2: pinch of slightly skeptical salt. At one of these fairs, 164 00:10:09,210 --> 00:10:12,450 Speaker 2: she steals a pair of red Morocco shoes, so red 165 00:10:12,530 --> 00:10:15,450 Speaker 2: leather shoes, and she hides them in her father's barn 166 00:10:15,570 --> 00:10:18,810 Speaker 2: on the farm in which she lives, and she secrets 167 00:10:18,850 --> 00:10:21,570 Speaker 2: them away for several months until eventually she goes to 168 00:10:21,610 --> 00:10:24,330 Speaker 2: her father and presents them and says, I've had these 169 00:10:24,370 --> 00:10:28,090 Speaker 2: all along. And there's an interesting idea of Mary sort 170 00:10:28,090 --> 00:10:31,050 Speaker 2: of taking some power from this, from taking an item 171 00:10:31,090 --> 00:10:33,010 Speaker 2: of clothing from someone, and clothing is going to be 172 00:10:33,370 --> 00:10:36,810 Speaker 2: incredibly important in her story. It seems to show some 173 00:10:36,930 --> 00:10:42,570 Speaker 2: kind of pathological proclivity towards I suppose, yes, lying, but 174 00:10:42,650 --> 00:10:48,370 Speaker 2: also stealing, collecting, gathering things that aren't hers, that are yes, 175 00:10:48,450 --> 00:10:51,970 Speaker 2: intimate objects to do with other people, and having that 176 00:10:52,250 --> 00:10:55,610 Speaker 2: kind of dominion over them. And we're going to see 177 00:10:55,610 --> 00:10:56,290 Speaker 2: that again and again. 178 00:10:56,730 --> 00:10:57,850 Speaker 1: Maybe she'll go out of it. 179 00:10:58,610 --> 00:10:59,410 Speaker 2: Spoiler alert. 180 00:10:59,730 --> 00:10:59,810 Speaker 1: No. 181 00:11:01,090 --> 00:11:04,290 Speaker 2: She works briefly as a servant in various households, and 182 00:11:04,330 --> 00:11:06,610 Speaker 2: she cannot hold down a job because she just lies 183 00:11:06,650 --> 00:11:10,410 Speaker 2: and lies and lies, and people feel very uneasy around her. 184 00:11:10,850 --> 00:11:13,930 Speaker 2: She eventually makes her way from rural North Yorkshire to Leeds, 185 00:11:13,930 --> 00:11:16,890 Speaker 2: which is this burgeoning industrial town at the time, and 186 00:11:16,970 --> 00:11:18,890 Speaker 2: she meets John, she marries him and they have some 187 00:11:18,970 --> 00:11:19,650 Speaker 2: children together. 188 00:11:20,090 --> 00:11:22,650 Speaker 1: So she marries John Bateman. She does, and then there 189 00:11:22,730 --> 00:11:28,970 Speaker 1: is this incident where he is a hero and she 190 00:11:29,210 --> 00:11:32,250 Speaker 1: takes advantage of his heroism. 191 00:11:33,170 --> 00:11:38,130 Speaker 2: There is a vast fire at a mill, and you know, 192 00:11:38,130 --> 00:11:41,770 Speaker 2: we're talking early Industrial Revolution, there is no health and safety. Children, 193 00:11:42,050 --> 00:11:44,370 Speaker 2: you know, as younger sort of seven and eight, maybe 194 00:11:44,370 --> 00:11:46,650 Speaker 2: sometimes younger, are working in these mills. And there's this 195 00:11:46,770 --> 00:11:51,290 Speaker 2: huge fire and everyone in the community rushes to put 196 00:11:51,290 --> 00:11:54,370 Speaker 2: it out, including her husband who works on the fire 197 00:11:54,410 --> 00:11:58,610 Speaker 2: team essentially, and Mary, who is heavily pregnant at this point. 198 00:11:58,650 --> 00:12:01,090 Speaker 2: And I think that's really key. She's always interested in 199 00:12:01,370 --> 00:12:04,730 Speaker 2: presenting herself a certain way and playing on people's assumptions, 200 00:12:04,810 --> 00:12:08,490 Speaker 2: and who doesn't trust a heavily pregnant lady. She goes 201 00:12:08,530 --> 00:12:11,170 Speaker 2: around knocking on people's doors, saying, do you have any 202 00:12:11,210 --> 00:12:14,410 Speaker 2: bandages to spare for the hospital for these poor people 203 00:12:14,770 --> 00:12:17,330 Speaker 2: who were injured. She gathers together all the cloth for 204 00:12:17,410 --> 00:12:19,690 Speaker 2: the hospital. She then goes to the other side of 205 00:12:19,770 --> 00:12:21,010 Speaker 2: town and sells it on. 206 00:12:21,450 --> 00:12:24,570 Speaker 1: Yeah pretty low. Did she need the money? Was she 207 00:12:24,610 --> 00:12:25,450 Speaker 1: desperate for money? 208 00:12:25,610 --> 00:12:28,850 Speaker 2: So John is a wheelwright, and he has this job 209 00:12:28,890 --> 00:12:30,770 Speaker 2: for most of his life. He also joins the local 210 00:12:30,810 --> 00:12:32,610 Speaker 2: militia and trains with them. 211 00:12:33,130 --> 00:12:33,610 Speaker 1: An income. 212 00:12:33,810 --> 00:12:36,890 Speaker 2: He has an income, He has a trade, a respectable trade. 213 00:12:37,490 --> 00:12:39,050 Speaker 2: There isn't really a need for her to do this. 214 00:12:39,410 --> 00:12:40,850 Speaker 1: Is this about power? Then? 215 00:12:41,090 --> 00:12:43,050 Speaker 2: It is about power. It's about power that she likes 216 00:12:43,090 --> 00:12:45,130 Speaker 2: to have over other people. And I think a lot 217 00:12:45,130 --> 00:12:47,410 Speaker 2: of the time she's not someone who wants to exhibit 218 00:12:47,450 --> 00:12:49,730 Speaker 2: this power necessarily. She doesn't want people to know what 219 00:12:49,770 --> 00:12:52,130 Speaker 2: she's doing. This is a private kind of manipulation, which 220 00:12:52,170 --> 00:12:53,610 Speaker 2: I think is so frightening about her. 221 00:12:54,170 --> 00:12:59,210 Speaker 1: How does she move from thievery to witchcraft? 222 00:12:59,890 --> 00:13:02,450 Speaker 2: So she does eventually train what she gets to leads 223 00:13:02,650 --> 00:13:05,410 Speaker 2: around the time of her marriage as a dressmaker's assistant, 224 00:13:06,050 --> 00:13:08,610 Speaker 2: and this is how she has access to the women 225 00:13:08,650 --> 00:13:11,290 Speaker 2: of the town of all different ranks. And this all 226 00:13:11,290 --> 00:13:13,330 Speaker 2: seems like a sort of magical spell to her. She 227 00:13:13,370 --> 00:13:19,210 Speaker 2: becomes interested in people's bodies and how she might create 228 00:13:19,250 --> 00:13:23,770 Speaker 2: things like ill wishes or well wishes, which are objects 229 00:13:24,010 --> 00:13:27,610 Speaker 2: that can be sewn into clothing that are essentially spells 230 00:13:27,650 --> 00:13:30,050 Speaker 2: that can protect you from evil, that can undo a 231 00:13:30,130 --> 00:13:32,810 Speaker 2: curse that's been put on you. These are people who've 232 00:13:32,850 --> 00:13:35,130 Speaker 2: come from the countryside, who are bringing their beliefs with them, 233 00:13:35,570 --> 00:13:40,130 Speaker 2: and when they are faced with the stark reality of industry, 234 00:13:40,490 --> 00:13:45,970 Speaker 2: it's bright lights, it's grind, it's exhaustive and exhausting nature. 235 00:13:46,450 --> 00:13:48,690 Speaker 2: They want a little bit of magic. And she works 236 00:13:48,730 --> 00:13:51,650 Speaker 2: this out and she offers them this. So she eventually 237 00:13:51,690 --> 00:13:55,210 Speaker 2: moves from being a servant to being a dressmaker to 238 00:13:55,330 --> 00:13:56,250 Speaker 2: being a witch. 239 00:13:56,610 --> 00:13:59,090 Speaker 1: So she's selling clothes, but she's selling. 240 00:13:59,250 --> 00:14:02,570 Speaker 2: She sells all kinds. She's selling magic. Yeah, she does 241 00:14:02,610 --> 00:14:05,410 Speaker 2: it with a woman on one occasion where the woman 242 00:14:05,490 --> 00:14:07,810 Speaker 2: is convinced her husband is in love with someone else, 243 00:14:08,170 --> 00:14:10,770 Speaker 2: and Mary says, oh, yes, it's missed such and such 244 00:14:10,850 --> 00:14:12,970 Speaker 2: from two streets down. I know her, and she's about 245 00:14:12,970 --> 00:14:14,250 Speaker 2: to run off with your husband. They're going to a 246 00:14:14,250 --> 00:14:17,170 Speaker 2: lope tonight, actually, And if you put these two calls 247 00:14:17,370 --> 00:14:21,490 Speaker 2: on her doorstep, she will see them and unquestioningly take 248 00:14:21,530 --> 00:14:23,890 Speaker 2: them into her house, put them on her fire, and 249 00:14:23,930 --> 00:14:26,530 Speaker 2: that night, when she lays out her brand new outfit 250 00:14:26,690 --> 00:14:28,650 Speaker 2: with which she is going to wear an elope with 251 00:14:28,650 --> 00:14:31,410 Speaker 2: your husband, the dress will catch fire and in the 252 00:14:31,450 --> 00:14:33,010 Speaker 2: morning she will have nothing to wear and she won't 253 00:14:33,010 --> 00:14:35,930 Speaker 2: be able to run away. With your husband. And there 254 00:14:36,010 --> 00:14:39,170 Speaker 2: is no woman with the dress who's going to run away. 255 00:14:39,210 --> 00:14:41,890 Speaker 2: This is entirely made up. And this poor lady is 256 00:14:41,930 --> 00:14:44,250 Speaker 2: so afraid of being left, you know, in a society 257 00:14:44,250 --> 00:14:46,130 Speaker 2: in which the man is the main income of your 258 00:14:46,130 --> 00:14:47,490 Speaker 2: household and she needs his support. 259 00:14:47,730 --> 00:14:53,530 Speaker 1: So manipulative, it's so manipulative. It's a very it's very cruel. 260 00:14:54,450 --> 00:14:58,850 Speaker 2: Yes, she is cruel. She doesn't seem to feel the 261 00:14:58,890 --> 00:15:02,570 Speaker 2: pain that she inflicts, or that she is messing with 262 00:15:02,610 --> 00:15:05,690 Speaker 2: these people's lives and giving them advice, and interestingly advice 263 00:15:05,730 --> 00:15:08,050 Speaker 2: that they follow, because she has this ability to read 264 00:15:08,090 --> 00:15:10,250 Speaker 2: them and see what they need from her, and then 265 00:15:10,490 --> 00:15:13,570 Speaker 2: she completely destroys them. And that's her pattern. 266 00:15:14,730 --> 00:15:29,610 Speaker 1: And we will find out more after the break. We're back. 267 00:15:29,850 --> 00:15:32,810 Speaker 1: I'm Tim Harford and I am talking to Maddie Pelling. 268 00:15:33,330 --> 00:15:36,010 Speaker 1: She is the co host of the after Dark podcast, 269 00:15:36,090 --> 00:15:38,970 Speaker 1: which you can find in all the usual pod places. 270 00:15:39,330 --> 00:15:43,010 Speaker 1: She's also the author of a wonderful new book, Hoax, 271 00:15:43,770 --> 00:15:47,610 Speaker 1: Truth and Lies in the Age of Enlightenment. We have 272 00:15:48,290 --> 00:15:51,450 Speaker 1: described this character of Mary Bateman. She is up to 273 00:15:51,490 --> 00:15:55,090 Speaker 1: no good, over and over and over again. Tell me 274 00:15:55,130 --> 00:15:56,650 Speaker 1: about the Kitchen Sisters. 275 00:15:57,290 --> 00:16:03,090 Speaker 2: Yes, so, Mary befriends, manipulates, finds her way into the 276 00:16:03,130 --> 00:16:06,210 Speaker 2: world of the Kitchen Sisters. These are two spinster sisters 277 00:16:06,490 --> 00:16:09,690 Speaker 2: living together. They have a shop. She it seems to 278 00:16:09,730 --> 00:16:13,610 Speaker 2: be acting as some kind of partial living servant for them. 279 00:16:13,730 --> 00:16:15,250 Speaker 1: I would not want this woman in my house. 280 00:16:16,050 --> 00:16:19,490 Speaker 2: You wouldn't want her cleaning your windows, let alone stepping 281 00:16:19,490 --> 00:16:23,490 Speaker 2: over the threshold. Now, the Kitchen Sisters, there's some debate 282 00:16:23,530 --> 00:16:26,650 Speaker 2: on whether she's offering them magical services. Maybe she's reading 283 00:16:26,650 --> 00:16:30,370 Speaker 2: their fortunes. They seem to be very interested in that 284 00:16:30,490 --> 00:16:33,210 Speaker 2: side of her. And what we do know is that 285 00:16:33,250 --> 00:16:37,130 Speaker 2: Mary is at some point solely responsible for preparing the 286 00:16:37,170 --> 00:16:41,290 Speaker 2: food in their household. Now they become ill, the two sisters, 287 00:16:42,210 --> 00:16:46,570 Speaker 2: and they die in quick succession. Not only this, but 288 00:16:46,610 --> 00:16:50,770 Speaker 2: their mother comes from just outside Leeds to tend to them. 289 00:16:50,850 --> 00:16:53,050 Speaker 2: She eats the food in the household, and she also 290 00:16:53,330 --> 00:16:58,650 Speaker 2: does eventually die. So we have pretty strange circumstances enough 291 00:16:58,690 --> 00:17:00,090 Speaker 2: to be raising some red flags. 292 00:17:00,410 --> 00:17:03,410 Speaker 1: Maybe there was some infectious illness that all three of 293 00:17:03,450 --> 00:17:04,970 Speaker 1: them caught. Do you think she killed them? 294 00:17:05,130 --> 00:17:09,970 Speaker 2: We are talking about an incredibly crowded environment in an 295 00:17:09,970 --> 00:17:14,650 Speaker 2: industrial city in which disease was rife. However, given what 296 00:17:14,690 --> 00:17:16,690 Speaker 2: we know about Mary so far and what she's going 297 00:17:16,730 --> 00:17:19,010 Speaker 2: to go on to do, I think there is a 298 00:17:19,130 --> 00:17:22,730 Speaker 2: very good chance that she has poisoned these sisters. 299 00:17:23,130 --> 00:17:24,730 Speaker 1: There was a doctor at the time who thinks that's 300 00:17:24,730 --> 00:17:26,170 Speaker 1: true because they died so quickly. 301 00:17:26,330 --> 00:17:29,450 Speaker 2: Yes, they die very very rapidly, and very close together 302 00:17:29,530 --> 00:17:29,930 Speaker 2: as well. 303 00:17:30,130 --> 00:17:34,490 Speaker 1: I am curious as to why people didn't cotton on. 304 00:17:34,770 --> 00:17:38,170 Speaker 1: Leeds is not it's not a rural community where everyone 305 00:17:38,210 --> 00:17:42,810 Speaker 1: knows everyone. It's a big city. But still she's living 306 00:17:42,890 --> 00:17:46,290 Speaker 1: in this city and there are problems over and over again. 307 00:17:47,250 --> 00:17:49,610 Speaker 1: Do people not start to join the dots? 308 00:17:50,010 --> 00:17:52,650 Speaker 2: It is truly remarkable, and I think it is testament 309 00:17:52,850 --> 00:17:56,970 Speaker 2: to the way the society operates and how impersonal it 310 00:17:57,010 --> 00:18:00,370 Speaker 2: was becoming and how disconnected. As early as eighteen oh three, 311 00:18:00,650 --> 00:18:04,370 Speaker 2: she does a particularly strange hoax that I always find 312 00:18:04,410 --> 00:18:06,490 Speaker 2: remarkable for the fact that people don't cotton on at 313 00:18:06,490 --> 00:18:10,050 Speaker 2: this point. Right, she announces to the city that the 314 00:18:10,050 --> 00:18:15,130 Speaker 2: apocalypse is coming. It really is, and it's bizarre that 315 00:18:15,170 --> 00:18:17,530 Speaker 2: this isn't sort of called out earlier. So she takes 316 00:18:17,570 --> 00:18:20,210 Speaker 2: the eggs that her chickens are laying in her yard. 317 00:18:20,850 --> 00:18:24,050 Speaker 2: She boils them. She writes on them in vinegar. Christ 318 00:18:24,130 --> 00:18:27,570 Speaker 2: is coming. She misspells Christ, puts Christ, which she knows 319 00:18:27,610 --> 00:18:28,970 Speaker 2: a bit. 320 00:18:28,410 --> 00:18:30,370 Speaker 1: Telling, So Christ is coming. 321 00:18:30,450 --> 00:18:33,810 Speaker 2: Christ is coming. She reinserts these eggs back into the chickens, 322 00:18:34,090 --> 00:18:36,090 Speaker 2: and she charges people to come and see them being laid, 323 00:18:36,090 --> 00:18:38,450 Speaker 2: and then she peels the shell off, and the writing, 324 00:18:38,490 --> 00:18:42,290 Speaker 2: of course is on the boiled egg. And people do 325 00:18:42,410 --> 00:18:44,490 Speaker 2: pay in their droves to come and see this. 326 00:18:44,930 --> 00:18:46,250 Speaker 1: Better tricks than the bottle contra. 327 00:18:46,330 --> 00:18:48,730 Speaker 2: There's something to look at, sure, But of course the 328 00:18:48,730 --> 00:18:51,090 Speaker 2: apocalypse never does happen. And this is eighteen oh three, 329 00:18:51,130 --> 00:18:52,730 Speaker 2: and the Kitchen Syster is a much later than this, 330 00:18:52,810 --> 00:18:57,290 Speaker 2: And so why is she not being discovered a woman 331 00:18:57,290 --> 00:18:59,610 Speaker 2: who is claiming the apocalypse is coming, who people go 332 00:18:59,650 --> 00:19:02,490 Speaker 2: to because they believe she has magical powers. Eventually, you're 333 00:19:02,490 --> 00:19:04,130 Speaker 2: going to be called out if the things that you're 334 00:19:04,130 --> 00:19:05,930 Speaker 2: promising aren't materializing. 335 00:19:05,370 --> 00:19:08,570 Speaker 1: You would think. Let's go back to Rebecca Perigo. We 336 00:19:08,610 --> 00:19:11,650 Speaker 1: met her in the introduction. She is worried that she 337 00:19:12,050 --> 00:19:13,690 Speaker 1: has fallen under an evil wish. 338 00:19:14,170 --> 00:19:17,970 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, poor Rebecca and William Perago. They really 339 00:19:18,050 --> 00:19:21,010 Speaker 2: have such a hard time. So, as you mentioned in 340 00:19:21,010 --> 00:19:24,770 Speaker 2: the opening, Rebecca is feeling unwell. She has this strange 341 00:19:24,810 --> 00:19:27,570 Speaker 2: feeling in her in her chest, and they go to 342 00:19:27,690 --> 00:19:30,130 Speaker 2: Mary in the hope that she can help them. And 343 00:19:31,490 --> 00:19:35,370 Speaker 2: immediately Mary positions herself as an intermediary with this character 344 00:19:35,450 --> 00:19:38,610 Speaker 2: called miss Blythe, and there are various from Scarborough. There 345 00:19:38,610 --> 00:19:40,730 Speaker 2: are various characters that she invents along her career, but 346 00:19:40,770 --> 00:19:44,290 Speaker 2: miss Blythe really sticks. And the idea is that miss 347 00:19:44,330 --> 00:19:47,690 Speaker 2: Blythe is sort of a witch on a slightly higher 348 00:19:47,770 --> 00:19:50,810 Speaker 2: level than Mary. Mary is just doing the groundwork in Leeds, 349 00:19:50,810 --> 00:19:53,850 Speaker 2: but miss Blythe has real power. And so if Rebecca 350 00:19:53,930 --> 00:19:57,090 Speaker 2: gives her things like her petticoat or you know, gold 351 00:19:57,210 --> 00:20:01,130 Speaker 2: coins or this list is endless, you know, it becomes 352 00:20:01,170 --> 00:20:04,090 Speaker 2: things like a round of cheese or a leg of ham. 353 00:20:04,210 --> 00:20:06,410 Speaker 2: It's at one point it's a new bed with all 354 00:20:06,450 --> 00:20:09,610 Speaker 2: new bedding. If these things are given to Mary, she 355 00:20:09,690 --> 00:20:12,010 Speaker 2: will transport them to Scarborough and then miss Blythe will 356 00:20:12,010 --> 00:20:15,490 Speaker 2: do magic and say Rebecca. And this goes on for months, 357 00:20:15,530 --> 00:20:18,250 Speaker 2: and they give all their worldly goods and it really 358 00:20:18,330 --> 00:20:21,530 Speaker 2: is almost everything they have over to Mary. You know, 359 00:20:21,570 --> 00:20:26,810 Speaker 2: these are not wealthy people, and Rebecca is not cured. Eventually, 360 00:20:27,970 --> 00:20:30,330 Speaker 2: the decision is made by Mary that she needs to 361 00:20:30,330 --> 00:20:32,610 Speaker 2: put an end to this because William is starting to 362 00:20:32,650 --> 00:20:35,010 Speaker 2: ask some questions. Now, I mean he's given over everything 363 00:20:35,050 --> 00:20:38,450 Speaker 2: he has. There's nothing, yeah, and Rebecca is not getting 364 00:20:38,610 --> 00:20:42,290 Speaker 2: any kind of improvement. And so Mary says, okay, right, 365 00:20:42,810 --> 00:20:45,050 Speaker 2: miss blythe has given me the ultimate answer. You need 366 00:20:45,090 --> 00:20:47,730 Speaker 2: to eat a pie, and I'm going to provide you 367 00:20:47,770 --> 00:20:50,690 Speaker 2: with some honey as well. Now, the pie is not 368 00:20:50,730 --> 00:20:52,770 Speaker 2: going to taste very nice, but you must eat all 369 00:20:52,770 --> 00:20:54,450 Speaker 2: of it. And because it didn't taste very nice, you 370 00:20:54,490 --> 00:20:56,770 Speaker 2: must then eat the honey afterwards, just to sweeten it. 371 00:20:56,810 --> 00:21:00,210 Speaker 2: You know, it'll all be fine, and then you'll feel better, 372 00:21:00,330 --> 00:21:02,410 Speaker 2: both of you. All your problems will be solved, You'll 373 00:21:02,410 --> 00:21:04,610 Speaker 2: be wealthy again, all these goods will come back to you. 374 00:21:05,650 --> 00:21:10,530 Speaker 2: And Rebecca and William bake the as instructed, and Mary's 375 00:21:10,530 --> 00:21:13,650 Speaker 2: given them a powder to put into it, and they 376 00:21:13,690 --> 00:21:17,050 Speaker 2: sit down to eat it. Now. Rebecca manages a few 377 00:21:17,090 --> 00:21:20,690 Speaker 2: mouthfuls and William manages only one because it's such a 378 00:21:20,730 --> 00:21:25,850 Speaker 2: bitter taste, and within minutes they are on the floor 379 00:21:26,010 --> 00:21:32,290 Speaker 2: writhing in agony. Rebecca is vomiting everywhere. It takes days 380 00:21:32,690 --> 00:21:37,410 Speaker 2: for Rebecca to die. She dies in hideous circumstances. Her 381 00:21:37,450 --> 00:21:40,130 Speaker 2: mouth swells up her tongue swells up and turns black. 382 00:21:40,770 --> 00:21:43,730 Speaker 2: A neighbor at one point comes into their house to 383 00:21:43,770 --> 00:21:47,690 Speaker 2: see what's happening because they're these screams of pain, and 384 00:21:47,730 --> 00:21:53,410 Speaker 2: she describes the smell as absolutely abhorrent. Rebecca's dying in 385 00:21:53,450 --> 00:21:56,930 Speaker 2: the most awful pain. William does survive. He's not well 386 00:21:56,930 --> 00:21:58,770 Speaker 2: at all. He had a little bite, he only has 387 00:21:58,810 --> 00:22:00,610 Speaker 2: a tiny bit, but he comes close to death. 388 00:22:00,730 --> 00:22:02,610 Speaker 1: Do we know what was in the pie? We have 389 00:22:02,610 --> 00:22:03,210 Speaker 1: any idea? 390 00:22:04,010 --> 00:22:09,490 Speaker 2: So William goes to the authorities once he is buried wife, 391 00:22:09,490 --> 00:22:12,090 Speaker 2: and he is absolutely heartbroken, and he comes up with 392 00:22:12,130 --> 00:22:14,770 Speaker 2: an idea to catch Mary. So he gets two constables 393 00:22:14,770 --> 00:22:16,370 Speaker 2: of the law to come with him. 394 00:22:16,530 --> 00:22:17,490 Speaker 1: He's finally woken up. 395 00:22:18,290 --> 00:22:21,530 Speaker 2: Yeah, he's woken up. Yes, And once he's physically well 396 00:22:21,650 --> 00:22:23,770 Speaker 2: enough to confront Mary, he decides to do so. So 397 00:22:23,850 --> 00:22:25,370 Speaker 2: he says that he's going to meet her on one 398 00:22:25,410 --> 00:22:27,810 Speaker 2: of the canals in Leeds, and he brings these two 399 00:22:27,810 --> 00:22:29,850 Speaker 2: constables and they are sort of hiding in a bush 400 00:22:29,890 --> 00:22:32,250 Speaker 2: down the way and he meets her and he says, 401 00:22:33,370 --> 00:22:37,210 Speaker 2: you poisoned us, You've killed my wife. You must have 402 00:22:37,290 --> 00:22:39,890 Speaker 2: put some poison in it. What is it? And she says, no, no, no, no, 403 00:22:39,930 --> 00:22:42,130 Speaker 2: it's just magical powder. Here's some more of it, and 404 00:22:42,170 --> 00:22:43,770 Speaker 2: she has a vial of it, and she tries to 405 00:22:43,810 --> 00:22:46,330 Speaker 2: sell him some more, and he calls on the constables 406 00:22:46,370 --> 00:22:47,650 Speaker 2: and they come out and they arrest her, and she's 407 00:22:47,650 --> 00:22:50,330 Speaker 2: holding this bottle, and even in that moment, she says, 408 00:22:50,530 --> 00:22:52,330 Speaker 2: help me, help me. This man's trying to sell me 409 00:22:52,450 --> 00:22:58,330 Speaker 2: arsenic and he's like, sorry, what. And it turns out 410 00:22:58,330 --> 00:23:00,410 Speaker 2: that it is in fact arsenic that she has on 411 00:23:00,450 --> 00:23:03,970 Speaker 2: her person. Not only this, The two constables and William 412 00:23:04,010 --> 00:23:06,330 Speaker 2: then go to her house. They drag her to the house, 413 00:23:06,410 --> 00:23:09,330 Speaker 2: and inside the house they find the goods that she's 414 00:23:09,370 --> 00:23:12,890 Speaker 2: taken off multiple victims, including pretty much everything the Paragos 415 00:23:12,890 --> 00:23:15,770 Speaker 2: had given. She's arrested for the murder, for the possession 416 00:23:15,810 --> 00:23:17,850 Speaker 2: of the arsenic and the fact that she's clearly used 417 00:23:17,850 --> 00:23:21,450 Speaker 2: it on William and Rebecca, and she has taken to 418 00:23:21,610 --> 00:23:25,010 Speaker 2: York jail, where she's kept over the winter, and it's 419 00:23:25,010 --> 00:23:28,850 Speaker 2: an incredibly bleak winter. She's still breastfeeding one of her 420 00:23:28,890 --> 00:23:31,010 Speaker 2: children who is in prison with her for this winter, 421 00:23:31,170 --> 00:23:32,770 Speaker 2: and she is going to be taken to trial. 422 00:23:33,810 --> 00:23:38,290 Speaker 1: Is her husband thought to be culpable or her children. 423 00:23:38,410 --> 00:23:40,290 Speaker 1: Is she thought to have acted alone or do they 424 00:23:40,450 --> 00:23:42,330 Speaker 1: do some of the blame land on him. 425 00:23:42,690 --> 00:23:47,210 Speaker 2: I think because of the time that this takes place, 426 00:23:47,290 --> 00:23:49,810 Speaker 2: because of the gendered expectations, there is a feeling that 427 00:23:49,890 --> 00:23:53,410 Speaker 2: Mary must take the forebront of it. She is a 428 00:23:53,490 --> 00:23:54,530 Speaker 2: manipulative woman. 429 00:23:54,650 --> 00:23:55,610 Speaker 1: Given what you've told me. 430 00:23:55,730 --> 00:23:57,850 Speaker 2: I mean, she's definitely not in a sense I'm not exactly. 431 00:23:58,810 --> 00:24:00,450 Speaker 2: I think he must have really loved her to the 432 00:24:00,450 --> 00:24:02,770 Speaker 2: extent where he is blind to a lot of her crimes. 433 00:24:03,170 --> 00:24:05,210 Speaker 2: I don't think there's a world in which he didn't 434 00:24:05,250 --> 00:24:07,490 Speaker 2: know what was going on, but I think he is 435 00:24:07,570 --> 00:24:09,890 Speaker 2: possibly naive to it, and she is very good at 436 00:24:09,970 --> 00:24:12,170 Speaker 2: keeping these things private, and that's why she is able 437 00:24:12,210 --> 00:24:13,410 Speaker 2: to act for as long as she does. 438 00:24:13,730 --> 00:24:15,610 Speaker 1: So that's what you think. What do the authorities think? 439 00:24:15,730 --> 00:24:18,570 Speaker 2: John is arrested, he is put on trial, and he 440 00:24:18,650 --> 00:24:22,170 Speaker 2: is found to be innocent. He is respectable enough, he's 441 00:24:22,210 --> 00:24:25,370 Speaker 2: been in the militia, he's contributed to society, and also 442 00:24:25,730 --> 00:24:27,850 Speaker 2: somebody has got to go home and look after the children, 443 00:24:28,090 --> 00:24:30,770 Speaker 2: and Mary cannot be allowed to walk free. So he 444 00:24:30,850 --> 00:24:34,090 Speaker 2: is released within days of his arrest and sent back 445 00:24:34,130 --> 00:24:38,130 Speaker 2: to Leeds. But Mary has no such luck. And she 446 00:24:38,290 --> 00:24:42,050 Speaker 2: really Eddi's testament to her commitment to her bit. I 447 00:24:42,050 --> 00:24:44,250 Speaker 2: think that she tries to lie to the very end. 448 00:24:44,330 --> 00:24:46,970 Speaker 2: So in her trial, when there are thousands of people 449 00:24:47,170 --> 00:24:50,530 Speaker 2: literally pressing into the courthouse at York, she stands up. 450 00:24:50,690 --> 00:24:54,370 Speaker 2: William has given his explosive evidence, and part of the 451 00:24:54,410 --> 00:24:56,290 Speaker 2: sort of damning thing that he says is that every 452 00:24:56,330 --> 00:24:59,210 Speaker 2: time she wrote to him explaining what magic would be 453 00:24:59,250 --> 00:25:02,010 Speaker 2: done or what they must give her, she would request 454 00:25:02,130 --> 00:25:04,530 Speaker 2: that he burnt the letters. Crucially, he doesn't burn them, 455 00:25:04,930 --> 00:25:08,130 Speaker 2: and so he presents the court with the evidence of 456 00:25:08,130 --> 00:25:12,890 Speaker 2: her crimes. They get multiple doctors to come and test 457 00:25:13,250 --> 00:25:16,570 Speaker 2: the remains of the pie, the vomit, all of these things. 458 00:25:17,370 --> 00:25:19,850 Speaker 2: Such is the pressure on everyone involved in this trial. 459 00:25:19,970 --> 00:25:22,250 Speaker 2: One of the doctors who is involved in doing these 460 00:25:22,250 --> 00:25:26,050 Speaker 2: tests actually he's swaying in the court room and he 461 00:25:26,090 --> 00:25:29,530 Speaker 2: actually has a heart attack and dies days later. Everyone 462 00:25:29,570 --> 00:25:31,490 Speaker 2: involved in this it's just so on edge. 463 00:25:31,650 --> 00:25:32,370 Speaker 1: I'm blaming Magic. 464 00:25:32,410 --> 00:25:36,290 Speaker 2: I think it's Mary clearly cursed him. Yeah, absolutely, she 465 00:25:37,650 --> 00:25:42,530 Speaker 2: denies everything. And the jury, however, I mean, they can 466 00:25:42,570 --> 00:25:44,650 Speaker 2: see her for what she is. There's no way that 467 00:25:44,690 --> 00:25:46,290 Speaker 2: Mary is going to walk away from this, and so 468 00:25:47,050 --> 00:25:50,530 Speaker 2: they pass the worst judgment. She is sentenced to be executed. 469 00:25:51,050 --> 00:25:54,050 Speaker 2: So when the judge passes this sentence and says you 470 00:25:54,090 --> 00:25:57,730 Speaker 2: are going to be taken from here and hanged, she 471 00:25:57,810 --> 00:26:00,050 Speaker 2: pleads the belly. She says, no, wait, you can't. I'm pregnant, 472 00:26:00,490 --> 00:26:03,130 Speaker 2: and don't forget she's still been feeding a baby in 473 00:26:03,170 --> 00:26:06,490 Speaker 2: prison this whole time. There's a gasp that goes around 474 00:26:06,530 --> 00:26:10,410 Speaker 2: the room. The judge immediately orders all the doors must 475 00:26:10,450 --> 00:26:12,650 Speaker 2: be closed in the courthouse. This news must not get 476 00:26:12,690 --> 00:26:16,250 Speaker 2: out to the street, and he asks for female volunteers 477 00:26:16,250 --> 00:26:18,970 Speaker 2: in the crowd to come forward and check whether or 478 00:26:19,010 --> 00:26:21,170 Speaker 2: not she's pregnant. And so there's a sort of pause, 479 00:26:21,530 --> 00:26:23,610 Speaker 2: and then all these women start to come forward of 480 00:26:23,650 --> 00:26:26,650 Speaker 2: all different classes who've squeezed in there. And she's taken 481 00:26:26,690 --> 00:26:29,450 Speaker 2: off to a side room and inspected. We don't know 482 00:26:29,570 --> 00:26:32,650 Speaker 2: the nature of that inspection or the qualification of these 483 00:26:32,690 --> 00:26:35,850 Speaker 2: women to make this judgment. They come back and say, no, 484 00:26:35,930 --> 00:26:38,050 Speaker 2: there's no sign she's not pregnant. She can go straight 485 00:26:38,090 --> 00:26:40,210 Speaker 2: to the gallows. We don't know if she was pregnant 486 00:26:40,290 --> 00:26:43,010 Speaker 2: or not. She might very well have been pregnant, but 487 00:26:43,810 --> 00:26:46,010 Speaker 2: it's not going to help her. And so she's taken 488 00:26:46,050 --> 00:26:48,850 Speaker 2: back to her cell. There is a really moving piece 489 00:26:48,890 --> 00:26:52,770 Speaker 2: of testimony actually from one of the prison guards who 490 00:26:52,850 --> 00:26:57,290 Speaker 2: talks about the morning of her death, when she feeds 491 00:26:57,290 --> 00:26:59,490 Speaker 2: her baby for the final time, she puts him down 492 00:26:59,530 --> 00:27:01,890 Speaker 2: on the bed in the prison cell. Her husband is 493 00:27:01,930 --> 00:27:03,850 Speaker 2: then ushered into the room to take the child away, 494 00:27:04,090 --> 00:27:06,050 Speaker 2: and she just places this baby down and walks away 495 00:27:06,050 --> 00:27:08,730 Speaker 2: from him to the gallows, knowing she's going to die. 496 00:27:08,410 --> 00:27:11,650 Speaker 2: And I often, as a new mom myself, I just 497 00:27:11,690 --> 00:27:15,450 Speaker 2: think about that moment, and to me, that's the closest 498 00:27:15,450 --> 00:27:17,690 Speaker 2: we can get to her humanity. I think she's a 499 00:27:17,730 --> 00:27:21,210 Speaker 2: deeply inhumane person actually, and deeply cruel, and yet I 500 00:27:21,250 --> 00:27:23,930 Speaker 2: have a flash of a real human There's a very. 501 00:27:23,810 --> 00:27:27,130 Speaker 1: Moving moment in your book where you describe the fact 502 00:27:27,170 --> 00:27:30,850 Speaker 1: that her shift must have been soaked in milk. 503 00:27:31,050 --> 00:27:33,290 Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely, for. 504 00:27:33,210 --> 00:27:35,130 Speaker 1: This baby who she will never see again. 505 00:27:35,250 --> 00:27:37,850 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. And her baby is held in her husband's 506 00:27:37,930 --> 00:27:41,290 Speaker 2: arms and he's surrounded by her other children as she's 507 00:27:41,330 --> 00:27:44,810 Speaker 2: taken to the gallows. She's hanged. There is a sort 508 00:27:44,850 --> 00:27:47,410 Speaker 2: of audible gasp again when she's hanged, because there is 509 00:27:47,450 --> 00:27:48,970 Speaker 2: this belief that she is a witch and that she's 510 00:27:49,010 --> 00:27:51,890 Speaker 2: going to maybe transform and fly away. Even in the 511 00:27:51,930 --> 00:27:55,250 Speaker 2: early nineteenth century, the people of Yorkshire are slightly concerned 512 00:27:55,530 --> 00:27:57,170 Speaker 2: that she is going to survive this. 513 00:27:57,970 --> 00:28:01,210 Speaker 1: She does not survive. She doesn't survive because she is 514 00:28:01,250 --> 00:28:01,770 Speaker 1: not a witch. 515 00:28:01,930 --> 00:28:04,530 Speaker 2: Yeah, because she's a person. She's a human being. For 516 00:28:04,570 --> 00:28:09,050 Speaker 2: all her deviancy and cruelty, she is an ordinary person. 517 00:28:09,530 --> 00:28:12,010 Speaker 1: So there is a lot about this story which is 518 00:28:12,210 --> 00:28:16,650 Speaker 1: very distinctively of its time. But I'm curious, this is 519 00:28:16,690 --> 00:28:20,250 Speaker 1: caution me tales. After all, what are the lessons that 520 00:28:20,290 --> 00:28:22,570 Speaker 1: we can learn that are still relevant to us today. 521 00:28:23,210 --> 00:28:26,930 Speaker 2: I think one of the lessons comes very much from 522 00:28:27,050 --> 00:28:29,610 Speaker 2: what happens to her body after she is killed. So 523 00:28:30,050 --> 00:28:32,770 Speaker 2: she's taken from York to Leeds. She's placed in a 524 00:28:33,090 --> 00:28:35,490 Speaker 2: rough wooden coffin on the back of a cart, and 525 00:28:35,650 --> 00:28:37,730 Speaker 2: hundreds and hundreds of people line the route. And when 526 00:28:37,730 --> 00:28:41,170 Speaker 2: she gets to Leads, she's taken to the anatomy school there, 527 00:28:41,530 --> 00:28:45,490 Speaker 2: and the lead anatomist, William Hay, who is a bit 528 00:28:45,490 --> 00:28:49,050 Speaker 2: of a showman himself and has made a career anatomizing 529 00:28:49,330 --> 00:28:50,930 Speaker 2: you know, the great and good and they're not so 530 00:28:51,010 --> 00:28:53,850 Speaker 2: good of leads in the surrounding area. For a fee, 531 00:28:54,610 --> 00:28:57,410 Speaker 2: he over three days, places her on the slab and 532 00:28:57,450 --> 00:28:59,530 Speaker 2: basically takes her apart, and it is a show. You know. 533 00:28:59,530 --> 00:29:01,250 Speaker 2: He does things like he cuts her womb out and 534 00:29:01,250 --> 00:29:03,170 Speaker 2: holds it up and says, there wasn't a baby in 535 00:29:03,210 --> 00:29:05,210 Speaker 2: here after all, and he takes her heart out and 536 00:29:05,250 --> 00:29:07,250 Speaker 2: someone in the audience shouts, you know, oh, it's not 537 00:29:07,330 --> 00:29:11,490 Speaker 2: black then, And there's real kind of dehumanizing of this 538 00:29:11,650 --> 00:29:14,330 Speaker 2: person despite her crimes. You know, she is absolutely reduced 539 00:29:14,410 --> 00:29:18,410 Speaker 2: to these body parts, and she is then boiled down 540 00:29:18,450 --> 00:29:21,290 Speaker 2: and her bones are put on display, and those bones 541 00:29:21,530 --> 00:29:25,170 Speaker 2: remained on display in Leads for what became the Thackeray 542 00:29:25,250 --> 00:29:29,490 Speaker 2: Museum until twenty fifteen. I think it's remarkable that she's 543 00:29:29,530 --> 00:29:32,090 Speaker 2: kept on display for as long as she was, and 544 00:29:32,130 --> 00:29:34,210 Speaker 2: I think there was a power attributed to her bones. 545 00:29:34,250 --> 00:29:36,130 Speaker 2: We know that when William Hay has finished on the 546 00:29:36,170 --> 00:29:38,090 Speaker 2: slab with her at the end of these three days, 547 00:29:38,770 --> 00:29:41,370 Speaker 2: a lot of people in the audience shuffle up to 548 00:29:41,450 --> 00:29:45,210 Speaker 2: the table and touch her remains because they are worried 549 00:29:45,570 --> 00:29:47,570 Speaker 2: that she is going to come back and meet out 550 00:29:47,570 --> 00:29:49,850 Speaker 2: her revenge on the people of Leads, because they still 551 00:29:49,850 --> 00:29:52,290 Speaker 2: believe that she has some power. And I think this 552 00:29:52,330 --> 00:29:56,650 Speaker 2: story tells us so much about people's fear. Especially in 553 00:29:56,770 --> 00:29:59,570 Speaker 2: the modern world, when things are changing so fast, people 554 00:29:59,570 --> 00:30:02,850 Speaker 2: look for alternative answers. It's going to give them an 555 00:30:02,850 --> 00:30:06,530 Speaker 2: exit strategy and out, an excuse or some comfort in 556 00:30:06,650 --> 00:30:08,930 Speaker 2: the harshness of what they're experiencing. And I think Mary 557 00:30:09,210 --> 00:30:12,090 Speaker 2: offers that, and in that way she feels very modernly. 558 00:30:12,090 --> 00:30:14,610 Speaker 2: You know, she's very much akin to a lot of 559 00:30:14,650 --> 00:30:18,650 Speaker 2: modern scammers today, really that she reads people. She finds 560 00:30:18,690 --> 00:30:21,250 Speaker 2: what they need, what their weaknesses are, what their desires are, 561 00:30:21,610 --> 00:30:23,890 Speaker 2: and she promises to deliver on that and sometimes she 562 00:30:23,930 --> 00:30:27,730 Speaker 2: does deliver, right, So she's offering some kind of sucker 563 00:30:27,770 --> 00:30:33,090 Speaker 2: and solace to people, but also she takes things arguably 564 00:30:33,210 --> 00:30:37,050 Speaker 2: quite far, and you know, ultimately that crosses over into 565 00:30:37,690 --> 00:30:42,050 Speaker 2: heinous crime. Really, so she I think she feels unusually 566 00:30:42,090 --> 00:30:45,610 Speaker 2: modern despite the specific context in which we find her. 567 00:30:46,090 --> 00:30:48,170 Speaker 2: And I think the fact that she is utterly destroyed 568 00:30:49,250 --> 00:30:54,250 Speaker 2: says something about the instability of that modern system that 569 00:30:54,330 --> 00:30:57,490 Speaker 2: was being born in that moment, the capitalism that demands 570 00:30:57,530 --> 00:31:01,130 Speaker 2: so much of everyone, that she upset that system. She 571 00:31:01,250 --> 00:31:04,050 Speaker 2: undermined it, She undermined the powers of it, the hierarchy 572 00:31:04,090 --> 00:31:06,730 Speaker 2: of it. She was able to make a living actively 573 00:31:06,770 --> 00:31:10,250 Speaker 2: working against it, and for that she is taken apart 574 00:31:10,250 --> 00:31:13,090 Speaker 2: and destroyed and obliterated. She could have just been hanged 575 00:31:13,330 --> 00:31:16,210 Speaker 2: and then taken to the cemetery and interred, but she wasn't. 576 00:31:16,210 --> 00:31:17,330 Speaker 2: They had to destroy her. 577 00:31:17,570 --> 00:31:21,010 Speaker 1: They hadn't quite finished with her. Yeah, and Maddie, I'm 578 00:31:21,050 --> 00:31:25,050 Speaker 1: afraid we have not quite finished with you, because our 579 00:31:25,130 --> 00:31:29,130 Speaker 1: Cautionary Tales listeners have questions now that you are an 580 00:31:29,210 --> 00:31:33,570 Speaker 1: expert on hoaxes, and we're going to answer them. After 581 00:31:33,610 --> 00:31:44,810 Speaker 1: the break, we're back. I'm joined by Maddie Pelling, who 582 00:31:44,890 --> 00:31:48,330 Speaker 1: is the co host of the after Dark podcast strongly 583 00:31:48,330 --> 00:31:54,530 Speaker 1: recommended and also the author of a new book called Hoax. Maddie, 584 00:31:54,930 --> 00:31:59,050 Speaker 1: with all this in mind, your hoax expertise, we've asked 585 00:31:59,090 --> 00:32:01,370 Speaker 1: our listeners to send in questions. Are you ready to 586 00:32:01,410 --> 00:32:01,930 Speaker 1: answer a few? 587 00:32:02,010 --> 00:32:03,650 Speaker 2: I'm ready, far away right. 588 00:32:04,130 --> 00:32:07,770 Speaker 1: So Stewart got in touch. He had a story about 589 00:32:07,810 --> 00:32:11,850 Speaker 1: his aunt who bore what he calls a magic healing box. 590 00:32:12,570 --> 00:32:15,690 Speaker 1: I think he had that firmly in quotation marks. So 591 00:32:15,930 --> 00:32:19,490 Speaker 1: it was supposed to emit some healing energy to heal 592 00:32:19,530 --> 00:32:22,970 Speaker 1: your DNA. In fact, well, when he looked at it, 593 00:32:22,970 --> 00:32:26,130 Speaker 1: it's just a low budget PC which scrolls colorful text 594 00:32:26,250 --> 00:32:30,170 Speaker 1: up and down, so probably cost a couple of hundred 595 00:32:30,210 --> 00:32:35,210 Speaker 1: dollars to make. Stuart's aunt was charged fifteen thousand dollars, 596 00:32:35,410 --> 00:32:38,650 Speaker 1: and Stuart says his aunt thought it must be good 597 00:32:39,050 --> 00:32:41,810 Speaker 1: because if it costs fifteen thousand dollars, it must be good. 598 00:32:42,170 --> 00:32:47,490 Speaker 1: So Stuart asks, this is all about the importance of 599 00:32:47,530 --> 00:32:53,050 Speaker 1: the story. He asks, what are the most impactful parts 600 00:32:53,210 --> 00:32:55,890 Speaker 1: of a scammer's story? What is it about the story 601 00:32:55,930 --> 00:32:57,330 Speaker 1: that really fools us? 602 00:32:57,690 --> 00:33:00,050 Speaker 2: I think it's got to be that it offers people hope. Right, 603 00:33:00,330 --> 00:33:02,730 Speaker 2: There's this sense that if you go down this road, 604 00:33:03,890 --> 00:33:07,690 Speaker 2: something good will happen that you cannot materialize elsewhere in 605 00:33:07,690 --> 00:33:10,050 Speaker 2: your life. You need this one person, the thing that 606 00:33:10,050 --> 00:33:13,770 Speaker 2: they're offering. And I think that's what's so powerful about 607 00:33:13,890 --> 00:33:15,970 Speaker 2: Mary Bateman and a lot of the other people in 608 00:33:15,970 --> 00:33:18,970 Speaker 2: my book actually is that they look at what is 609 00:33:19,050 --> 00:33:21,170 Speaker 2: missing in the world around them and in the lives 610 00:33:21,210 --> 00:33:23,810 Speaker 2: of people around them, and they offer that exact thing, 611 00:33:23,890 --> 00:33:27,250 Speaker 2: whether it's entertainment, whether it's a route out of a 612 00:33:27,290 --> 00:33:30,650 Speaker 2: dire situation, whatever it is. As is the case with Mary, 613 00:33:30,730 --> 00:33:36,650 Speaker 2: really that there's a pretense of expertise of authority of 614 00:33:36,690 --> 00:33:39,370 Speaker 2: you know, if something cost enough, it is therefore going 615 00:33:39,410 --> 00:33:41,570 Speaker 2: to be legitimate. There's a legitimacy there, and I think 616 00:33:41,730 --> 00:33:44,650 Speaker 2: it's always hard to distinguish. And I think it certainly 617 00:33:44,730 --> 00:33:48,530 Speaker 2: is in the period that I look at, when the 618 00:33:48,730 --> 00:33:52,090 Speaker 2: very idea of knowledge is being developed constantly, and who 619 00:33:52,170 --> 00:33:56,170 Speaker 2: gets to be knowledgeable and who is not knowledgeable or 620 00:33:56,210 --> 00:33:58,930 Speaker 2: authoritative is changing. And I think that's true in our 621 00:33:58,970 --> 00:34:01,410 Speaker 2: modern time as well, right, you know, with the Internet, 622 00:34:01,650 --> 00:34:06,490 Speaker 2: with you know, how people present themselves, the people that 623 00:34:06,570 --> 00:34:11,130 Speaker 2: can become online in particular coped to in real life. 624 00:34:11,370 --> 00:34:14,170 Speaker 2: I think there is a lot of danger in the 625 00:34:14,210 --> 00:34:18,730 Speaker 2: sort of impersonation of authority and expertise. Actually, I have 626 00:34:18,850 --> 00:34:21,450 Speaker 2: a question for you, Tim from Elane, and she says, 627 00:34:22,370 --> 00:34:26,210 Speaker 2: are there any stories about scammers or hoaxes who redeem 628 00:34:26,370 --> 00:34:29,810 Speaker 2: themselves They pull a scammer hoax and then they later 629 00:34:29,930 --> 00:34:32,490 Speaker 2: rethink their actions. Can you think of anyone like that? 630 00:34:33,050 --> 00:34:38,050 Speaker 1: So, definitely stories about scammers who are redeemed by others, 631 00:34:38,090 --> 00:34:43,050 Speaker 1: who become heroes. So one is the Captain of Kopenick, 632 00:34:43,530 --> 00:34:46,050 Speaker 1: one of our very first cautionary tales. He became a 633 00:34:46,050 --> 00:34:47,730 Speaker 1: folk hero. He steals a lot of money and he 634 00:34:47,810 --> 00:34:51,290 Speaker 1: terrifies a bunch of people, but everybody just thinks of 635 00:34:51,330 --> 00:34:54,650 Speaker 1: him as an amiable scoundrel. I think he served some time, 636 00:34:54,690 --> 00:34:57,010 Speaker 1: but then he was forgiven by the Kaiser and it 637 00:34:57,090 --> 00:35:00,410 Speaker 1: just became this folk hero and this idea of somebody 638 00:35:00,410 --> 00:35:04,650 Speaker 1: who'd punctured authority, and it kind of deserved to be punctured. 639 00:35:05,290 --> 00:35:08,570 Speaker 1: Another one that we covered in Cautionary Tales is han 640 00:35:08,690 --> 00:35:13,170 Speaker 1: Van Meg. So he was an art forger and he 641 00:35:13,490 --> 00:35:18,490 Speaker 1: forged vermires. But when he was caught, he was arrested 642 00:35:18,530 --> 00:35:21,370 Speaker 1: at the end of the war and he was charged 643 00:35:21,410 --> 00:35:27,370 Speaker 1: with selling a vermire to the Nazis to Gurring, and 644 00:35:27,490 --> 00:35:29,730 Speaker 1: this is basically treason. You sold the Dutch treasure to 645 00:35:29,850 --> 00:35:32,370 Speaker 1: the Nazis. And the Dutch has kind of not really 646 00:35:32,570 --> 00:35:34,410 Speaker 1: they're not really in the mood nineteen forty five. They've 647 00:35:34,410 --> 00:35:36,730 Speaker 1: had a rough time and there's a lot of kind 648 00:35:36,730 --> 00:35:41,890 Speaker 1: of scores being settled, and he says to Goring it 649 00:35:41,970 --> 00:35:44,530 Speaker 1: was a forgery, it was a vun magran. And so 650 00:35:44,610 --> 00:35:47,250 Speaker 1: there's this grand trial where he proves that he's that 651 00:35:47,330 --> 00:35:50,490 Speaker 1: he's forged all these paintings, and he's he's forced to 652 00:35:50,570 --> 00:35:54,010 Speaker 1: paint more of them to and he just plays everybody 653 00:35:54,090 --> 00:35:56,210 Speaker 1: like a violin and he's he's basically in the end 654 00:35:56,250 --> 00:36:00,330 Speaker 1: he's convicted of forgery. I mean he he's effectively conned 655 00:36:00,330 --> 00:36:02,770 Speaker 1: people out of an awful lot of money, include and 656 00:36:02,810 --> 00:36:06,450 Speaker 1: not just Nazis. He was the most popular man in 657 00:36:06,490 --> 00:36:08,210 Speaker 1: the Netherlands. And then he died of a heart attack 658 00:36:08,250 --> 00:36:13,050 Speaker 1: before he served jail time. But Jonathan Lopez, who worked 659 00:36:13,050 --> 00:36:19,650 Speaker 1: it's amazing biography of Van Megrn, It's like, all of that, 660 00:36:19,650 --> 00:36:23,250 Speaker 1: that's the real contract. That story is the contract. Van 661 00:36:23,250 --> 00:36:26,850 Speaker 1: Megran was a Nazi. There's a there's a book, a 662 00:36:27,010 --> 00:36:32,690 Speaker 1: von Megrn book in Hitler's library dedicated to my beloved 663 00:36:32,730 --> 00:36:35,330 Speaker 1: fura Han van Meglen. He's like, oh, someone must have 664 00:36:35,370 --> 00:36:39,810 Speaker 1: forged that. Yeah, right, a very very unpleasant character who 665 00:36:40,210 --> 00:36:45,770 Speaker 1: spent all this money turring parties for Nazi officials, hiring 666 00:36:45,770 --> 00:36:48,130 Speaker 1: lots of prostitutes at a time when the people of 667 00:36:48,130 --> 00:36:53,890 Speaker 1: Amsterdam were starving. So it's more common, I think for 668 00:36:54,170 --> 00:36:57,970 Speaker 1: hoaxes to have their reputations redeemed when in fact the 669 00:36:57,970 --> 00:37:01,210 Speaker 1: hoax of themselves is not redeemed. I got on for you, okay. 670 00:37:01,690 --> 00:37:05,690 Speaker 1: So Kazwin, who is a member of our Cautionary Club 671 00:37:06,410 --> 00:37:11,010 Speaker 1: and thus rightly deserves priority. Absolutely a case when got 672 00:37:11,050 --> 00:37:15,890 Speaker 1: in touch via Patreon to ask when Thomas Jefferson had 673 00:37:16,170 --> 00:37:21,250 Speaker 1: his ex vice president, Aaron Burr prosecuted for conspiracy. The 674 00:37:21,410 --> 00:37:24,250 Speaker 1: main evidence in the case was a letter that later 675 00:37:24,370 --> 00:37:27,850 Speaker 1: proved to have been forged. So what other forgeries or 676 00:37:27,890 --> 00:37:33,050 Speaker 1: scams have been employed in cutthroat, top level politics and 677 00:37:33,130 --> 00:37:34,330 Speaker 1: did they work well? 678 00:37:34,370 --> 00:37:37,610 Speaker 2: I mean, the eighteenth century is just full of fraud 679 00:37:37,970 --> 00:37:42,370 Speaker 2: and forgeries at every level. There's certainly in the Court 680 00:37:42,370 --> 00:37:46,650 Speaker 2: of Georgia. Third, there's constant forgeries going on where people 681 00:37:46,690 --> 00:37:49,410 Speaker 2: are sort of claiming, you know, oh, this minister has 682 00:37:50,050 --> 00:37:52,170 Speaker 2: said this about me or said this about the king 683 00:37:52,210 --> 00:37:53,930 Speaker 2: and then say no, no, no, I never wrote that. And 684 00:37:54,050 --> 00:37:56,530 Speaker 2: there's a great case which I'm not I think it's 685 00:37:56,570 --> 00:37:59,410 Speaker 2: a Swedish case in the eighteenth century called the X 686 00:37:59,570 --> 00:38:03,250 Speaker 2: Y Z case, and it's basically referring to three spies 687 00:38:03,530 --> 00:38:07,650 Speaker 2: known as X, Y and Z, who all are they 688 00:38:07,770 --> 00:38:11,770 Speaker 2: sort of accused of each other of various nefarious goings on, 689 00:38:12,450 --> 00:38:15,290 Speaker 2: and their correspondence is all forged. And it's this thing 690 00:38:15,410 --> 00:38:17,770 Speaker 2: you're sort of talking about there in the previous question 691 00:38:17,850 --> 00:38:21,050 Speaker 2: about when there is a lie built on a lie, 692 00:38:21,090 --> 00:38:23,610 Speaker 2: built on a lie, and the hoax that then we'll say, well, 693 00:38:23,650 --> 00:38:25,370 Speaker 2: this wasn't true, and this was true, and I did this, 694 00:38:25,410 --> 00:38:28,210 Speaker 2: and I did that, and the layers of that become 695 00:38:28,290 --> 00:38:29,250 Speaker 2: so complicated. 696 00:38:30,130 --> 00:38:31,770 Speaker 1: It's like scam movies. 697 00:38:33,370 --> 00:38:35,050 Speaker 2: Yes, and then at the end there'll be just a 698 00:38:35,050 --> 00:38:37,130 Speaker 2: little twist and you're like, oh, it was all fake along, 699 00:38:37,210 --> 00:38:38,570 Speaker 2: oh it was all true or something, you know. And 700 00:38:38,650 --> 00:38:40,770 Speaker 2: I think there's so much of that. I would wager 701 00:38:40,930 --> 00:38:44,130 Speaker 2: that there are forgeries to be found at the highest 702 00:38:44,210 --> 00:38:47,770 Speaker 2: levels of government throughout history. Surely I have a question 703 00:38:47,810 --> 00:38:50,730 Speaker 2: for you. Okay, this is from Jared. He says, I'm 704 00:38:50,770 --> 00:38:53,250 Speaker 2: a fan of cautionary tales and After Dark, which is 705 00:38:53,330 --> 00:38:56,850 Speaker 2: lovely like a crossover. You've been spending your time in 706 00:38:56,890 --> 00:39:00,130 Speaker 2: the right way. Jared, absolutely, yes, excellent taste. He says, 707 00:39:00,170 --> 00:39:03,050 Speaker 2: it seems that our fascination with past hoaxes contains a 708 00:39:03,090 --> 00:39:06,650 Speaker 2: certain amount of schadenfreuder. We like to hear about others 709 00:39:06,650 --> 00:39:09,770 Speaker 2: who got fooled, while we assure ourselves we were never have 710 00:39:09,890 --> 00:39:13,410 Speaker 2: been taken in What did Tim and Maddie think? Tim, 711 00:39:13,570 --> 00:39:15,490 Speaker 2: would you have fallen for Mary Bateman? 712 00:39:17,250 --> 00:39:19,370 Speaker 1: It's easy to say no, right, it's easy to say no. 713 00:39:20,450 --> 00:39:24,010 Speaker 1: I think that one of the reasons why I find 714 00:39:24,010 --> 00:39:27,130 Speaker 1: these stories of hoaxes so interesting is because they do 715 00:39:29,010 --> 00:39:35,050 Speaker 1: tell us what it is that people fall for, what 716 00:39:35,250 --> 00:39:37,210 Speaker 1: parts of the story that people fall for. So with 717 00:39:37,610 --> 00:39:41,130 Speaker 1: the Captain of Kerpenick, it's the it's the uniform, it's 718 00:39:41,170 --> 00:39:43,690 Speaker 1: the time pressure, like there was someone in a uniform 719 00:39:43,730 --> 00:39:45,690 Speaker 1: shouting at you you don't have time. 720 00:39:45,890 --> 00:39:47,290 Speaker 2: The appearance of authority. 721 00:39:47,410 --> 00:39:50,250 Speaker 1: Yeah, at other times it's wishful thinking. So with Han 722 00:39:50,330 --> 00:39:54,610 Speaker 1: von Megalon, he approached an art critic called Abraham Bradius, 723 00:39:54,690 --> 00:39:58,530 Speaker 1: who had his entire life he had a theory that 724 00:39:58,650 --> 00:40:03,610 Speaker 1: Vermiir had gone to Italy, had seen Caravaggio's paintings, had 725 00:40:03,610 --> 00:40:08,290 Speaker 1: been influenced by them, and had a religious phase. There 726 00:40:08,370 --> 00:40:10,770 Speaker 1: wasn't that much, ever for any of this, but Van 727 00:40:10,810 --> 00:40:18,090 Speaker 1: Magrin painted a Caravaggio inspired for Mia. So when he 728 00:40:18,170 --> 00:40:22,650 Speaker 1: showed this to Gradius, he wasn't just showing him a 729 00:40:22,690 --> 00:40:25,130 Speaker 1: painting and saying, you know, do you think this is 730 00:40:25,170 --> 00:40:28,210 Speaker 1: a real vermir He was showing Bradius that the old 731 00:40:28,250 --> 00:40:32,450 Speaker 1: man had been right his entire life. And that's very powerful. 732 00:40:33,130 --> 00:40:37,010 Speaker 1: So I hope that when people look at these stories. 733 00:40:37,970 --> 00:40:41,210 Speaker 1: They realize what buttons have been pressed and what levers 734 00:40:41,210 --> 00:40:45,170 Speaker 1: have been pulled. But I agree with Jared's question that 735 00:40:45,530 --> 00:40:49,010 Speaker 1: it is very easy to just go well, there's something 736 00:40:49,050 --> 00:40:51,530 Speaker 1: about like it's like watching somebody slip on a banana skin, right, 737 00:40:51,570 --> 00:40:53,290 Speaker 1: there is that comedy of someone. 738 00:40:53,050 --> 00:40:54,770 Speaker 2: Else's Yeah, we're glad it's not us. 739 00:40:54,810 --> 00:40:57,530 Speaker 1: You, We're glad it's not us. But you have to realize, yeah, 740 00:40:57,610 --> 00:40:59,530 Speaker 1: if you had been there and you had stepped, you 741 00:40:59,570 --> 00:41:01,050 Speaker 1: would also have slipped on the banana skin. 742 00:41:01,930 --> 00:41:04,290 Speaker 2: We are all products of our own context and our 743 00:41:04,330 --> 00:41:07,610 Speaker 2: own ignorances and will will be taken in by something 744 00:41:07,650 --> 00:41:07,970 Speaker 2: I think. 745 00:41:08,290 --> 00:41:10,650 Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Maddie. It's been so good to 746 00:41:10,650 --> 00:41:13,370 Speaker 1: have you on the show. I've been speaking to Maddie pelling. 747 00:41:13,650 --> 00:41:16,850 Speaker 1: Her new book is Hoax, Truth and Lies in the 748 00:41:16,890 --> 00:41:21,650 Speaker 1: Age of Enlightenment. Maddie, that's been brilliant. You're obviously a 749 00:41:22,050 --> 00:41:25,130 Speaker 1: natural at podcasting. Tell us about your podcast after Dinner. 750 00:41:25,290 --> 00:41:27,450 Speaker 2: Yes, I have done it before. Yes, I am the 751 00:41:27,490 --> 00:41:30,490 Speaker 2: co host of After Dark, Myths, Misdeeds and the Paranormal, 752 00:41:30,530 --> 00:41:32,330 Speaker 2: which is a history hit podcast that I do with 753 00:41:32,370 --> 00:41:37,290 Speaker 2: doctor Anthony Delaney, and we cover all kinds of dark histories, 754 00:41:37,490 --> 00:41:41,170 Speaker 2: mysteries from the past. We love a ghost story, we 755 00:41:41,250 --> 00:41:46,290 Speaker 2: love a shipwreck, but we crucially bring a historical, rigorous 756 00:41:46,370 --> 00:41:49,410 Speaker 2: lens to look at some of these strange occurrences. 757 00:41:48,970 --> 00:41:52,610 Speaker 1: Definite overlap with the interests of course Newtaiales listeners. So 758 00:41:52,650 --> 00:41:56,770 Speaker 1: if you many of you will will have already subscribed 759 00:41:56,810 --> 00:41:59,730 Speaker 1: to after Dark, but if not, do subscribe as an 760 00:41:59,770 --> 00:42:02,570 Speaker 1: added inducement. If it is an added inducement, I have 761 00:42:02,730 --> 00:42:06,450 Speaker 1: just recorded an episode with Anthony and Maddie of After 762 00:42:06,530 --> 00:42:10,530 Speaker 1: Dark talking about one of my very very favorite episodes 763 00:42:10,570 --> 00:42:10,890 Speaker 1: of cause. 764 00:42:11,090 --> 00:42:13,490 Speaker 2: Oh it's such a good story. 765 00:42:13,570 --> 00:42:17,210 Speaker 1: So subscribe, tune in you'll hear it round about the 766 00:42:17,210 --> 00:42:20,530 Speaker 1: same time that this conversation is released. Maddie, thank you again. 767 00:42:20,690 --> 00:42:24,450 Speaker 2: Thank you. Tim. 768 00:42:24,650 --> 00:42:28,330 Speaker 1: Cautionary Tales is written by me Tim Harford with Andrew Wright, 769 00:42:28,610 --> 00:42:32,850 Speaker 1: Alice Fines, and Ryan Dilly. It's produced by Georgia Mills 770 00:42:32,850 --> 00:42:36,530 Speaker 1: and Marilyn Rust. The sound design and original music are 771 00:42:36,570 --> 00:42:41,050 Speaker 1: the work of Pascal Wise. Additional sound design by Carlos 772 00:42:41,090 --> 00:42:45,450 Speaker 1: San Juan at Brain Audio and Dan Jackson. Bend A. 773 00:42:45,530 --> 00:42:49,530 Speaker 1: Daf Haffrey edited the scripts. The show also wouldn't have 774 00:42:49,570 --> 00:42:53,210 Speaker 1: been possible without the work of Jacob Weisberg, Greta Cohne, 775 00:42:53,410 --> 00:42:59,810 Speaker 1: Eric Sandler, Carrie Brody, Christina Sullivan, Kira Posey, and Owen Miller. 776 00:43:00,490 --> 00:43:04,370 Speaker 1: Cautionary Tales is a production of Pushkin Industries. If you 777 00:43:04,490 --> 00:43:09,570 Speaker 1: like the show, please remember to share, rate and reviews 778 00:43:09,610 --> 00:43:12,450 Speaker 1: make a difference to us. And if you want to 779 00:43:12,530 --> 00:43:16,610 Speaker 1: hear it, add free and receive a bonus audio episode, 780 00:43:16,930 --> 00:43:21,130 Speaker 1: video episode, and members only newsletter every month. Why not 781 00:43:21,210 --> 00:43:25,690 Speaker 1: join the Cautionary Club. To sign up, head to patreon 782 00:43:25,890 --> 00:43:30,450 Speaker 1: dot com slash Cautionary Club. That's Patreon, p A, t R, 783 00:43:30,570 --> 00:43:35,090 Speaker 1: e o N dot com Slash Cautionary Club