WEBVTT - Preserving the Histories 0:00:01.600 --> 0:00:04.280 Before this week's episode, I wanted to take a moment 0:00:04.320 --> 0:00:07.120 to let y'all know about the devastating floods happening in 0:00:07.160 --> 0:00:10.960 Pakistan right now. Over thirty million people have been affected, 0:00:10.960 --> 0:00:14.040 with the death toll around eleven hundred and rising with 0:00:14.160 --> 0:00:18.200 every passing day. Entire buildings are being washed away, with 0:00:18.320 --> 0:00:22.680 many people sustaining injuries. I encourage every listener to donate 0:00:22.720 --> 0:00:26.319 any amount they can to help alleviate this disaster. You 0:00:26.360 --> 0:00:28.840 can find a list of organizations to send funds to 0:00:29.240 --> 0:00:36.240 linked in the show notes. These stories had to be 0:00:37.400 --> 0:00:40.919 the thing with saud Asia and many other ancient cultures 0:00:40.960 --> 0:00:43.760 of the world is that all our histories are all 0:00:45.640 --> 0:00:48.400 While there is such a beauty in these older traditions, 0:00:49.240 --> 0:00:51.840 there is also real fear that these stories will get 0:00:51.840 --> 0:00:57.360 lost if they're not driking down. I really felt that 0:00:57.560 --> 0:01:01.440 that I didn't want these nuances to be raced. I 0:01:01.520 --> 0:01:09.760 wanted to where do you go if you want to 0:01:09.760 --> 0:01:13.240 pay tribute to someone? Most people would visit a specific 0:01:13.280 --> 0:01:16.560 place like a grave, a memorial, or a site that 0:01:16.600 --> 0:01:19.440 has been well preserved for visitors. But what if you 0:01:19.480 --> 0:01:22.640 don't have any of those places at your disposal? Neither 0:01:22.760 --> 0:01:27.759 India nor Pakistan have any memorials dedicated to partition. There 0:01:27.880 --> 0:01:31.280 is no communal place to reflect on this grief. One 0:01:31.280 --> 0:01:33.640 of the only ways we can ensure that memories and 0:01:33.760 --> 0:01:36.600 stories of those who went through this very distressing event 0:01:36.920 --> 0:01:41.280 don't get lost is by preserving their oral histories. Children 0:01:41.280 --> 0:01:44.920 and grandchildren of partition survivors took it upon themselves to 0:01:44.920 --> 0:01:49.080 start asking questions, recording interviews, and writing down stories that 0:01:49.120 --> 0:01:52.960 their elders told them. It became clear that if they 0:01:52.960 --> 0:01:57.680 didn't note these histories, no one else would. From I 0:01:57.800 --> 0:02:02.280 Heart Radio, I'm Najazi's and This is Partition, a podcast 0:02:02.320 --> 0:02:04.840 that will take a closer look into this often forgotten 0:02:04.920 --> 0:02:29.480 part of history. My grandparents from my father's side, my 0:02:29.480 --> 0:02:32.120 paternal grandparents and my dad when he was a baby, 0:02:32.120 --> 0:02:36.480 they migrated from Lahore to what is now India in 0:02:36.680 --> 0:02:39.320 ninety seven and it was a forced migration. It wasn't 0:02:39.360 --> 0:02:41.760 something that they wanted to do, but you know, like 0:02:41.880 --> 0:02:45.240 millions of people, they were uprooted from their home and uh, 0:02:45.720 --> 0:02:47.760 you know, I grew up in India. The first ten 0:02:47.840 --> 0:02:49.480 years of my life. I was an army kid, so 0:02:49.520 --> 0:02:53.680 I lived in a lot of different places, including Gemmuine, Kashmi. 0:02:56.160 --> 0:02:59.320 That's Dr Gunita Singh Bala, the founder of the ninety 0:02:59.360 --> 0:03:02.280 seven Partition an Archive. You may recall her telling us 0:03:02.320 --> 0:03:05.200 about the vast differences between what she learned about partition 0:03:05.280 --> 0:03:08.079 from her family versus what she learned from school from 0:03:08.080 --> 0:03:11.680 episode two. This discrepancy is something that has stayed with 0:03:11.720 --> 0:03:16.520 her for decades. When conned the travel to Japan to 0:03:16.560 --> 0:03:20.720 conduct research for her PhD, she visited the Hiroshima Peace Memorial. 0:03:21.600 --> 0:03:23.720 It was here that she was inspired to document the 0:03:23.760 --> 0:03:29.560 stories of her family and community in an archive. We 0:03:29.600 --> 0:03:32.720 had read books in high school about the history of 0:03:32.760 --> 0:03:36.040 the atomic bombing of Japan and so on, But when 0:03:36.080 --> 0:03:39.280 you hear from survivors, it really fits you in a 0:03:39.320 --> 0:03:42.880 different way because you connect with it on a human level. 0:03:42.960 --> 0:03:44.520 You hear it in their voice, you see it in 0:03:44.520 --> 0:03:49.520 their expressions, you hear how it impacted their very human lives. 0:03:51.200 --> 0:03:54.200 She quickly understood this way of storytelling is one that 0:03:54.240 --> 0:03:57.600 demands attention. It is not something that could easily be 0:03:57.680 --> 0:04:02.760 swept under the road. I realized in that moment that 0:04:03.360 --> 0:04:07.520 you know the power of witness testimony, that we needed 0:04:07.560 --> 0:04:10.960 to hear the story of partition directly from people who 0:04:11.000 --> 0:04:13.120 lived through it, because if I said something like I 0:04:13.160 --> 0:04:16.000 did to my school teacher was dismissed very easily. But 0:04:16.120 --> 0:04:19.440 when my grandmother, who lived through it, she told it differently. 0:04:19.520 --> 0:04:22.400 She told it through every form of expression available to 0:04:22.480 --> 0:04:25.480 Herder is very instinctive because she had lived through it, 0:04:25.720 --> 0:04:29.159 and you can't really deny that. You know, this was 0:04:29.200 --> 0:04:35.599 Goanitas Aha moment. I sort of casually started recording stories 0:04:35.640 --> 0:04:37.680 on a trip to Punjab in two thousand nine. People 0:04:37.680 --> 0:04:40.560 thought it was insane, like really strange what I was doing. 0:04:41.000 --> 0:04:44.320 People who had witnessed it started to line up and 0:04:44.360 --> 0:04:47.120 it was like, Oh, there's a need, like people want 0:04:47.200 --> 0:04:51.600 to tell their story. Ever since then, Guanita has been 0:04:51.600 --> 0:04:55.800 devoted to collecting these memories. Through this work, she's realized 0:04:55.839 --> 0:05:01.039 that every moment is fleeting. In two nine, I finished 0:05:01.040 --> 0:05:03.200 my pH d and I moved to Berkeley to do 0:05:03.279 --> 0:05:06.479 my post talk and in a family member that I 0:05:06.480 --> 0:05:08.520 was going to interview the last member of my family 0:05:08.520 --> 0:05:11.560 in that nineties age group. I forgot my camera when 0:05:11.600 --> 0:05:13.680 I meant to go talk to him before I came 0:05:13.720 --> 0:05:16.359 back a couple of months later with my camera, he died. 0:05:17.240 --> 0:05:19.120 I was like, Wow, this is a wake up call 0:05:19.240 --> 0:05:22.800 like I have lost the adult version of my story 0:05:23.040 --> 0:05:25.560 or in my family, but there are millions of other 0:05:25.600 --> 0:05:30.480 families out there who still have this memory of partisition 0:05:30.520 --> 0:05:32.880 and it needs to be documented for the world forgets. 0:05:36.120 --> 0:05:39.560 She said. It was overwhelming and overpowering, and there was 0:05:39.640 --> 0:05:43.960 nothing that was going to stop her. Every cell in 0:05:44.000 --> 0:05:49.719 my body was committed into making this happen. At this time, 0:05:49.880 --> 0:05:53.440 Counta had a strenuous career as an experimental condensed matter 0:05:53.520 --> 0:05:57.800 physicist at UC Berkeley. She was working constantly, but somehow 0:05:57.839 --> 0:05:59.839 she was still able to find time to look for 0:06:00.000 --> 0:06:05.680 objects to interview. Somehow, I was finding time to go 0:06:05.880 --> 0:06:10.320 and table at mosques and Mondays and Goodwias in the 0:06:10.360 --> 0:06:14.040 Bay Area, and people were lining up to sign up 0:06:14.040 --> 0:06:18.360 to tell their story. She realized she needed to enlist 0:06:18.360 --> 0:06:20.280 people to help her if she wanted to keep up 0:06:20.279 --> 0:06:26.160 with the demand. So I started speaking at student clubs 0:06:26.240 --> 0:06:29.400 at various South Asian groups. You know, I was new 0:06:29.440 --> 0:06:30.920 to the barrier. I didn't know anyone, which I think 0:06:30.960 --> 0:06:34.679 really helped because I didn't have that fear of judgment, 0:06:34.839 --> 0:06:36.440 you know. I kind of just started doing this stuff. 0:06:37.279 --> 0:06:41.320 So that's how our initial teams were formed, and it 0:06:41.440 --> 0:06:43.800 was just um. You know, there was a lot of obstacles, 0:06:43.839 --> 0:06:46.880 but I think when you are so drunk on an 0:06:46.920 --> 0:06:49.680 idea and you're so absolutely committed and you feel it 0:06:49.720 --> 0:06:52.320 to your core, nothing can stop you. So that's how 0:06:52.320 --> 0:06:56.680 it happened. And I was working around the clock. She 0:06:56.760 --> 0:06:59.240 recalls her home turning into a library in a way. 0:06:59.839 --> 0:07:02.280 She had a lot of video and recording equipment from 0:07:02.279 --> 0:07:05.919 a variety of places. Sometimes people would stop by and 0:07:06.040 --> 0:07:09.120 borrow tape recorders and other equipment from her to record 0:07:09.240 --> 0:07:12.880 oral histories of people they knew. Knita spent hours and 0:07:12.960 --> 0:07:19.160 hours digitizing all the tapes she collected. So my computer 0:07:19.240 --> 0:07:22.679 was running seven UM. So that's kind of how it started. 0:07:23.360 --> 0:07:25.880 We started teaching in order to you know, the idea 0:07:25.960 --> 0:07:28.800 was the crowdsource. Basically, the idea was that you can 0:07:28.920 --> 0:07:31.960 use the internet to get support from other people to 0:07:32.000 --> 0:07:34.760 solve big problems. So I was like, well, why don't 0:07:35.000 --> 0:07:38.720 we do that, Why don't we come together to document partition? 0:07:39.440 --> 0:07:43.040 So we collaborated with MUC Berkeley's Regional Oral History Office 0:07:43.600 --> 0:07:48.400 and UM learned how to conduct oral histories properly, developed 0:07:48.720 --> 0:07:50.480 training modules, and you know, I had a lot of 0:07:50.480 --> 0:07:53.080 teaching experience in other fields, but it was very easy 0:07:53.120 --> 0:07:58.800 to adapt that to oral history. She created a webinar 0:07:58.960 --> 0:08:01.880 where thousands of people all over the world could take 0:08:01.920 --> 0:08:05.440 a course and learn how to record these histories. What 0:08:05.600 --> 0:08:09.680 was originally a side project turned into a fully fledged organization. 0:08:12.560 --> 0:08:16.520 We've documented stories from I believe fourteen or fifteen countries 0:08:16.560 --> 0:08:19.760 at this point, more than five hundred cities and villages, 0:08:19.960 --> 0:08:23.480 thirty six languages, over ten thousand oral histories of partition, 0:08:23.520 --> 0:08:31.240 which was our founding goal. To showcase the magnitude of 0:08:31.240 --> 0:08:34.160 what Kunita created, I'm going to walk you through the website. 0:08:37.080 --> 0:08:41.280 Once you reach the Partition Archive, you're showing a map 0:08:41.440 --> 0:08:45.960 that is incredibly interactive. You can see where people migrated from, 0:08:45.960 --> 0:08:50.040 where they migrated to their current city. You can zoom 0:08:50.040 --> 0:08:53.040 in on different areas, and you can see the number 0:08:53.240 --> 0:08:57.080 of stories that are located in each city and village. 0:08:58.280 --> 0:09:04.600 It's truly truly in heat a bowl. Within moments, you 0:09:04.640 --> 0:09:10.400 have thousands of stories of partition survivors at your fingertips. 0:09:10.400 --> 0:09:13.840 That being said, one unfortunate and common reality of partition 0:09:14.080 --> 0:09:17.199 is that many people are still looking for siblings, friends, 0:09:17.320 --> 0:09:19.920 and other loved ones whom they were separated from back 0:09:19.960 --> 0:09:23.440 in ninety seven, I asked Anita if she came across 0:09:23.520 --> 0:09:28.440 any stories like this. Yes, we have connected lots and 0:09:28.520 --> 0:09:31.760 lots of brothers and sisters, friends and family and cousins 0:09:31.760 --> 0:09:34.920 who were separated in so that's been part of our 0:09:34.960 --> 0:09:40.400 work for a decade now. Interestingly, I had documented this man, 0:09:40.800 --> 0:09:44.400 l Bano. I had documented his grandmother's story in the 0:09:44.480 --> 0:09:47.000 San Francisco Bay area, and he was really inspired by 0:09:47.040 --> 0:09:51.120 what we were doing. The man wanted these interviews to 0:09:51.160 --> 0:09:53.680 be put up on YouTube, but the archive was unable 0:09:53.760 --> 0:09:56.679 to do that at that time. In this discussion, I 0:09:56.760 --> 0:09:58.760 told her about an article I read earlier in the 0:09:58.840 --> 0:10:03.040 Washington Post about two brothers who are reunited after seventy 0:10:03.120 --> 0:10:06.199 four years, and in a lovely and surprising twist, the 0:10:06.280 --> 0:10:09.559 same man she mentioned helped create the same YouTube channel 0:10:09.720 --> 0:10:15.319 that showcase the brothers meeting again. He actually started his 0:10:15.360 --> 0:10:18.559 own channel. It's called Punjabi Lahire. It's a live thing. 0:10:18.640 --> 0:10:21.439 They go when they talk to people who migrated in 0:10:23.000 --> 0:10:25.199 the same thing as us, but they focus only on 0:10:25.240 --> 0:10:27.599 pun job and they do it live. And it's not 0:10:27.800 --> 0:10:30.040 like the rigular squirrel history, if you will, it's more 0:10:30.160 --> 0:10:33.920 like a conversation and uh, you know, like a little 0:10:34.000 --> 0:10:35.839 TV show where they visit. It's a beautiful thing that 0:10:35.880 --> 0:10:43.320 they've done well. Friends and family being reunited after decades 0:10:43.400 --> 0:10:46.520 is a wonderful thing to see. These moments are constantly 0:10:46.600 --> 0:10:52.200 plagued by the unmaleable borders of India and Pakistan. India 0:10:52.240 --> 0:10:55.480 and Pakistan have a very complex relationship with each other 0:10:55.880 --> 0:10:59.280 because of the lasting legacy of partition. It is still 0:10:59.360 --> 0:11:02.360 near impos sable today for Pakistan needs to visit India 0:11:02.760 --> 0:11:07.280 and for Indians to visit Pakistan. The wounds of still 0:11:07.400 --> 0:11:11.199 run very deep. Goodita and I really commiserate over this 0:11:12.760 --> 0:11:14.760 in my twenties when I was like traveling all over 0:11:14.840 --> 0:11:17.840 the world for conferences during this enough for my academic 0:11:17.920 --> 0:11:20.760 work and even in general, you know, just for fun. 0:11:21.440 --> 0:11:23.360 I was really floored by the fact that it was 0:11:23.440 --> 0:11:26.960 so easy for me to travel everywhere except Pakistan. That's 0:11:27.040 --> 0:11:32.360 like the motherland, that's where we're all from. She was 0:11:32.400 --> 0:11:34.800 a lot more composed in our conversation than I was, 0:11:35.360 --> 0:11:38.120 but we came to a hopeful thought. Perhaps with a 0:11:38.240 --> 0:11:40.920 number of oral history projects out there and the more 0:11:41.040 --> 0:11:44.240 stories of reunions coming out, there is a slight glimmer 0:11:44.480 --> 0:11:47.959 that maybe slowly, but surely, these walls and barriers will 0:11:48.000 --> 0:11:55.120 come down. Now we have people who made the effort 0:11:55.280 --> 0:11:59.400 to open up that recorridor. People are starting to take 0:11:59.440 --> 0:12:02.199 small step up and I think projects like ours and 0:12:02.320 --> 0:12:08.160 others are helping to break those boundaries. Finally, the Cathar 0:12:08.240 --> 0:12:11.160 Pork Corridor is home to a sea holy site that 0:12:11.320 --> 0:12:14.040 is on the Bakistani side of the border. It's it's 0:12:14.120 --> 0:12:16.600 only three miles from India and it wasn't until two 0:12:17.760 --> 0:12:21.280 that the area became a visa free crossing. This corridor 0:12:21.600 --> 0:12:24.800 was the only way the aforementioned brothers could physically meet. 0:12:26.400 --> 0:12:28.439 I think if we keep working at it, all of 0:12:28.559 --> 0:12:32.120 us in our generation, I think we can help you 0:12:32.320 --> 0:12:35.400 praise some of these tensions which really don't need to 0:12:35.480 --> 0:13:06.400 be there if you really dig deep. At the top 0:13:06.440 --> 0:13:08.839 of the episode, the voice you heard was of author 0:13:08.960 --> 0:13:13.440 and oral historian until Molotra. She acknowledged her fear about 0:13:13.480 --> 0:13:16.680 these stories disappearing if there wasn't a record of them anywhere. 0:13:17.559 --> 0:13:20.040 Over many years, she has talked to numerous people about 0:13:20.080 --> 0:13:23.560 partition and their memories associated with it, but it wasn't 0:13:23.640 --> 0:13:26.240 until two thirteen she thought to start writing a book 0:13:26.520 --> 0:13:30.600 called Remnants of Partition twenty one objects from a continent divided. 0:13:35.280 --> 0:13:37.480 It might seem strange to some that I have written 0:13:37.520 --> 0:13:40.720 a book about mere objects carried across the border, when 0:13:40.760 --> 0:13:43.120 I could very well have written about the enormity of 0:13:43.320 --> 0:13:47.040 memory and experience that survives. And I must admit that 0:13:47.120 --> 0:13:50.760 at times during my interviews I did feel uncomfortable and 0:13:50.880 --> 0:13:54.920 perhaps even petty, to be continually asking about things people 0:13:55.000 --> 0:13:58.480 brought when clearly they had witnessed so much horror along 0:13:58.520 --> 0:14:03.199 the path to safety. But still I would persist, what 0:14:03.360 --> 0:14:07.000 did you bring? How much did you bring? How did 0:14:07.080 --> 0:14:14.320 you bring it? What did you leave behind? Why? These things? Things? Things, things. 0:14:14.840 --> 0:14:17.440 I have learned to say things in so many different languages. 0:14:17.480 --> 0:14:21.400 It alarms me. But I will say this that continuing 0:14:21.440 --> 0:14:24.840 to remember clearly as very difficult. And so my entry 0:14:24.920 --> 0:14:28.440 point into the memory of that time remains the material object, 0:14:28.880 --> 0:14:33.560 the personal possession. It is still my main gateway and 0:14:33.680 --> 0:14:37.680 the life before it fabrics and documents and soil and 0:14:37.840 --> 0:14:46.920 stones and touch and smell and caress. In October, Unto 0:14:47.040 --> 0:14:49.600 was on sabbatical from grad school and returned to India. 0:14:50.160 --> 0:14:52.160 One of her friends mentioned to her that he was 0:14:52.200 --> 0:14:55.160 writing about old houses in billy. He was interested in 0:14:55.280 --> 0:15:05.400 visiting Until's nanas her maternal grandfather's home phrase project Manana's 0:15:05.440 --> 0:15:08.400 eldest brother. I remember he left the room and he 0:15:08.520 --> 0:15:11.360 came back with an array of objects, and he said 0:15:11.440 --> 0:15:13.720 that if you have to talk about the past, then 0:15:13.840 --> 0:15:16.160 you know these objects are also old, and you must 0:15:16.240 --> 0:15:18.880 talk about them as well. And two objects from that pile, 0:15:19.000 --> 0:15:21.960 which were a medium sized vessel in which Lessie has 0:15:22.000 --> 0:15:26.240 made out and a yardstick or the gas, had been 0:15:26.280 --> 0:15:30.120 carried by his family from lower to Lizza, and they 0:15:30.160 --> 0:15:32.480 were obviously by five and older than the house Pap 0:15:32.520 --> 0:15:37.120 was standing in. And I had never seen those objects before. 0:15:37.120 --> 0:15:40.640 They were so ordinary, so mundane, and there was nothing 0:15:40.760 --> 0:15:45.240 exceptional about it, except for the stories that emerged when 0:15:45.640 --> 0:15:49.920 he began touching the object, caressing it, talking about it. 0:15:50.680 --> 0:15:54.400 It's like he remembered his childhood in law. He remembered 0:15:54.480 --> 0:15:58.320 the gully, remembered eating chilgos as, he remembered drinking the 0:15:58.440 --> 0:16:01.560 kind of you know, what makes a giant. He remembered 0:16:01.600 --> 0:16:04.600 what the house looks like. He remembered his father using 0:16:04.680 --> 0:16:07.080 the yard stick in their clothing store. He remembered their 0:16:07.160 --> 0:16:09.920 mother making lesstie in the girl, and it was just 0:16:10.080 --> 0:16:16.160 such a visceral transportation. Uncle's words brought me back to 0:16:16.280 --> 0:16:18.680 the conversation I had with my mom in episode one, 0:16:18.960 --> 0:16:20.600 where she said she would take a photo of her 0:16:20.640 --> 0:16:24.680 family an object that couldn't easily be replaced. I often 0:16:24.720 --> 0:16:28.320 think about what my family members brought with them, A newspaper, 0:16:28.800 --> 0:16:32.360 a book, a piece from a school uniform. I can 0:16:32.440 --> 0:16:35.240 only really wonder since my living grandparents don't remember what 0:16:35.360 --> 0:16:38.680 they brought after seventy five years have passed. When I 0:16:38.760 --> 0:16:42.840 saw the item question from home, I asked myself, what 0:16:42.960 --> 0:16:44.920 would I have brought if I was in this position. 0:16:45.760 --> 0:16:47.640 From time to time this question pops up in my 0:16:47.720 --> 0:16:54.120 head and I still don't have any idea. So I 0:16:54.280 --> 0:16:57.760 just had never considered objects to be photos of the past, 0:16:57.800 --> 0:17:00.120 which of course they are, you know, the mini you 0:17:00.360 --> 0:17:03.440 infuse them with memories, and I think that kind of 0:17:03.880 --> 0:17:07.439 unfolding of the past that happened that afternoon, I couldn't 0:17:07.480 --> 0:17:11.879 forget it, and I kept thinking about what people carry. 0:17:12.280 --> 0:17:15.119 Actually that was the first thought, like what did they carry? 0:17:15.240 --> 0:17:18.000 And how could they carry things? And you know, if 0:17:18.040 --> 0:17:20.800 you're leaving your home at a moment's notice, one of 0:17:20.880 --> 0:17:22.840 the things that you take what is valuable to you 0:17:23.000 --> 0:17:26.040 emotionally or monetary. What do you carry? And so I 0:17:26.359 --> 0:17:30.080 basically started a small exercise for myself and Danny, asking 0:17:30.560 --> 0:17:33.679 refugees when migrated at the time of partition what they carried. 0:17:35.920 --> 0:17:38.560 One of the chapters and Remnants of Partition is devoted 0:17:38.600 --> 0:17:42.040 to Anto's grandmother, Bubma Lochra, who speaks of a piece 0:17:42.080 --> 0:17:49.800 of druy that belonged to her mother. I showed you then, 0:17:50.840 --> 0:17:54.360 but almost forgot that. My mother brought one other thing 0:17:54.440 --> 0:17:57.560 with her all the way from the French til it 0:17:57.840 --> 0:18:00.040 was the only thing She made sure to take it, 0:18:00.840 --> 0:18:03.840 and now it is with me. But you have seen 0:18:03.920 --> 0:18:08.480 it already many times. This was once a month taka, 0:18:09.359 --> 0:18:12.840 something to be worn on the head. The stones are 0:18:12.880 --> 0:18:16.639 peculiar to the frontier and upon only in that region. 0:18:17.640 --> 0:18:20.119 My mother received it as a wedding gift from her 0:18:20.240 --> 0:18:22.840 mother in law, and I believe it had been in 0:18:22.960 --> 0:18:27.040 my father's family for quite a while before that. But 0:18:27.280 --> 0:18:31.040 what I remember, she never worried after her wedding sermon, 0:18:32.080 --> 0:18:35.760 just looked at it from time to time. When she 0:18:35.920 --> 0:18:40.240 left Pakistan, though, she made sure to bring it because 0:18:40.320 --> 0:18:43.000 she thought she could send it and get some money 0:18:43.080 --> 0:18:47.000 to raise and educate us. I remember her telling us 0:18:47.080 --> 0:18:49.320 how she had tied it within the codes of her 0:18:49.400 --> 0:18:52.919 clothes for fear of being robbed on a way to Delhi, 0:18:53.720 --> 0:18:57.000 which was precious. It would have brought us a happy 0:18:57.119 --> 0:19:01.000 sum even at that time, but I don't think she 0:19:01.040 --> 0:19:04.440 could have parted with it, and in a way, this 0:19:04.680 --> 0:19:08.800 piece of jury was the only thing that remained of 0:19:09.400 --> 0:19:21.439 her leg Once again, the subject of the borders came 0:19:21.560 --> 0:19:24.600 up in addition to being an author until co created 0:19:24.640 --> 0:19:28.040 the Museum of Material Memory with her friend Navva Malocha. 0:19:28.560 --> 0:19:32.679 This online depository shares the same idea of objects telling stories. 0:19:35.560 --> 0:19:39.639 So as I was working on recording stories of objects, 0:19:40.040 --> 0:19:42.320 many people who started getting in touch with me that 0:19:42.680 --> 0:19:45.400 had nothing to do with partition, but had aged objects 0:19:45.520 --> 0:19:49.160 in their home. And these objects were sometimes even used, 0:19:49.200 --> 0:19:52.240 you know, like you tensity in the kitchen, or fabrics 0:19:52.320 --> 0:19:54.840 that had been fast down the generation that was still worn, 0:19:55.840 --> 0:19:59.280 and they would ask me to come and write stories 0:19:59.320 --> 0:20:03.760 about this. But I started thinking firstly about the accessibility 0:20:03.920 --> 0:20:06.240 of the archives. You know, I am based in India, 0:20:06.320 --> 0:20:09.200 but I would love for things to be seen by everybody. 0:20:09.640 --> 0:20:13.520 And by everybody I mean Indians in the diaspora, Pakistani's, 0:20:13.600 --> 0:20:18.280 Bangladesh's the dietspor of those two countries, nepolis of Ghanies, 0:20:18.480 --> 0:20:21.960 people from Sri Lanka. How would you do that? And 0:20:22.080 --> 0:20:25.320 the other thing I started thinking about was wouldn't it 0:20:25.400 --> 0:20:29.080 be great if people started archiving stories of their objects 0:20:29.119 --> 0:20:35.080 on their own. She emphasizes that intergenerational stories unrelated to 0:20:35.160 --> 0:20:37.560 partition are just as important for the public to know. 0:20:38.200 --> 0:20:41.000 Much like Pertica's work from last week's episode, the idea 0:20:41.119 --> 0:20:44.600 of accessibility and resonating with one another across borders is 0:20:44.640 --> 0:20:50.320 a vital Then I think that by doing that, we 0:20:50.440 --> 0:20:53.920 not only are able to encompass obviously more of the 0:20:54.000 --> 0:20:57.280 geographic diversity, but also include, you know, those kinds of 0:20:57.320 --> 0:21:00.439 communities that really want impacted by partition, but who histories 0:21:00.480 --> 0:21:03.320 have also gone and recorded. And I think the object 0:21:03.440 --> 0:21:05.879 is a great way to enter into something that is 0:21:05.920 --> 0:21:08.880 relatively unknown because you have something tangible in your hand 0:21:09.800 --> 0:21:12.960 with a region whose borders continue to be so tenuinue. 0:21:13.560 --> 0:21:16.399 Sometimes the digital is really a gift because it is 0:21:16.440 --> 0:21:22.800 borderless and it allows us to converse. Really, I mean, yeah, 0:21:22.840 --> 0:21:24.879 the internet can be a really harmful place in that 0:21:25.040 --> 0:21:27.320 sense as well, but I think for us it was 0:21:27.400 --> 0:21:30.639 really a gift because the common section of the archive 0:21:31.080 --> 0:21:36.000 is really beautiful because people find I suppose the aspects 0:21:36.040 --> 0:21:38.600 of themselves and other people's objects, or my mother had 0:21:38.680 --> 0:21:41.200 something like that, or how intested Can you tell me 0:21:41.240 --> 0:21:44.000 where you're from? My grandfather migrated from that place, you know. 0:21:44.600 --> 0:21:47.280 So I think it was really about storytelling through the objects. 0:21:48.359 --> 0:21:50.960 You can't walk on the soil of your ancestors because 0:21:51.000 --> 0:21:53.879 of this border. There are a lot of obstacles standing 0:21:53.960 --> 0:21:57.400 between you and your history. But I think the great 0:21:57.440 --> 0:22:02.119 paradox of partition also is when Indians in Pakistani's meat overseas, 0:22:02.600 --> 0:22:06.040 and how they immediately relate to one another and they 0:22:06.119 --> 0:22:09.119 feel like they're speaking to their own. You know, I 0:22:09.200 --> 0:22:12.680 am Indian and you are Pakistani Maia, but I know 0:22:13.119 --> 0:22:16.240 so many nas that I dove and I have. I 0:22:16.400 --> 0:22:18.480 feel like you are one of my own because you 0:22:18.600 --> 0:22:21.320 relate to what I say, you understand my language, you 0:22:21.359 --> 0:22:25.159 can pronounce my name in the right way. We have 0:22:25.320 --> 0:22:29.000 shared history, which ultimately also means we have shared things, 0:22:29.440 --> 0:22:33.080 which eventually, I hope, over the years, will mean we 0:22:33.200 --> 0:22:40.440 can have shared reconciliation. It was at this point that 0:22:40.560 --> 0:22:43.960 I began to cry. Unhel touched upon the truth that 0:22:44.080 --> 0:22:47.480 I'm sure Indians and Pakistani's must know to be universal, 0:22:48.200 --> 0:22:50.159 is that there is so much more that unites us 0:22:50.280 --> 0:22:53.800 than divides us. I told her that I don't consider 0:22:53.880 --> 0:22:56.760 myself a pessimist. I may be more of a realist. 0:22:56.960 --> 0:22:59.879 But the light and optimism that Antil possesses on a 0:23:00.000 --> 0:23:02.440 soy made me reconsider the mentality I have for my 0:23:02.560 --> 0:23:08.600 everyday life. I think it's very easy to be quite 0:23:08.720 --> 0:23:12.040 sad about what has happened in the past, but partition, 0:23:13.000 --> 0:23:15.879 it can teach us less for the future. It can 0:23:15.960 --> 0:23:17.879 teach us how we want to live in the present, 0:23:17.960 --> 0:23:20.199 what kind of future we want to have for our children. 0:23:20.880 --> 0:23:24.040 And I know that the work I'm doing it may 0:23:24.119 --> 0:23:27.239 not make a difference, because one book cannot really make 0:23:27.280 --> 0:23:34.960 a difference. But you know, many writers together, many artists together, musicians, dances, choreographers, filmmakers, 0:23:35.560 --> 0:23:38.760 a cultural movement can make a difference. You see Miss 0:23:38.880 --> 0:23:43.879 Marvel in Hollywood and you feel seen. You feel like 0:23:44.000 --> 0:23:46.560 the pain that you may not have been able to 0:23:46.680 --> 0:23:50.560 voice ever has found the voice and you feel like, yeah, 0:23:50.640 --> 0:23:52.919 this is my story. When I watched Miss Marvel, I'm 0:23:52.960 --> 0:23:56.400 not Pakistani I'm not an immigrant. I don't live in America. 0:23:56.520 --> 0:24:00.840 But everything that Kamala lived through, that can with how history. 0:24:01.000 --> 0:24:05.120 Being in garages, speaking to her grandmother, trying to make 0:24:05.320 --> 0:24:08.920 new associations with this catastrophic event that she has not 0:24:09.119 --> 0:24:12.240 lived through but has defined the generations of her family. 0:24:13.080 --> 0:24:16.480 I related to that. I think that you know, empathy 0:24:16.600 --> 0:24:19.600 is borderless. You don't need to be Indian Pakistani to 0:24:19.640 --> 0:24:24.560 be able to empathize. One of my interview is said 0:24:24.600 --> 0:24:29.800 to me that governments divide far easier than people. I 0:24:29.880 --> 0:24:41.879 think it's true. Next time on Partition, I spoke to 0:24:41.960 --> 0:24:45.120 Shanty Dungary about how he escaped from Lahore to Kashmir. 0:24:45.200 --> 0:24:49.639 In He shared an abundance of herring memories with me. 0:24:53.320 --> 0:24:57.120 So I would listen to the radio, read the newspaper, 0:24:57.359 --> 0:25:01.000 and there were articles about the fire and down down Lahore. 0:25:01.119 --> 0:25:08.040 In con we started wadding about what's going to happen 0:25:08.160 --> 0:25:18.200 men of your summer lives until next week. I'm nass 0:25:18.640 --> 0:25:25.440 and this is Partition. Partition was developed as a part 0:25:25.480 --> 0:25:29.080 of the Next Up initiative created by Anna Hosnier, Joel 0:25:29.200 --> 0:25:34.320 Monique and Sina Median. Partition is produced by Anna Hosnier, 0:25:34.760 --> 0:25:39.439 Tricia Mukerjee and Becca Ramos. It is edited by Rory Gagan, 0:25:39.720 --> 0:25:42.520 with the original score composed by Mark Hadley.