1 00:00:01,600 --> 00:00:04,280 Speaker 1: Before this week's episode, I wanted to take a moment 2 00:00:04,320 --> 00:00:07,120 Speaker 1: to let y'all know about the devastating floods happening in 3 00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:10,960 Speaker 1: Pakistan right now. Over thirty million people have been affected, 4 00:00:10,960 --> 00:00:14,040 Speaker 1: with the death toll around eleven hundred and rising with 5 00:00:14,160 --> 00:00:18,200 Speaker 1: every passing day. Entire buildings are being washed away, with 6 00:00:18,320 --> 00:00:22,680 Speaker 1: many people sustaining injuries. I encourage every listener to donate 7 00:00:22,720 --> 00:00:26,319 Speaker 1: any amount they can to help alleviate this disaster. You 8 00:00:26,360 --> 00:00:28,840 Speaker 1: can find a list of organizations to send funds to 9 00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:36,240 Speaker 1: linked in the show notes. These stories had to be 10 00:00:37,400 --> 00:00:40,919 Speaker 1: the thing with saud Asia and many other ancient cultures 11 00:00:40,960 --> 00:00:43,760 Speaker 1: of the world is that all our histories are all 12 00:00:45,640 --> 00:00:48,400 Speaker 1: While there is such a beauty in these older traditions, 13 00:00:49,240 --> 00:00:51,840 Speaker 1: there is also real fear that these stories will get 14 00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:57,360 Speaker 1: lost if they're not driking down. I really felt that 15 00:00:57,560 --> 00:01:01,440 Speaker 1: that I didn't want these nuances to be raced. I 16 00:01:01,520 --> 00:01:09,760 Speaker 1: wanted to where do you go if you want to 17 00:01:09,760 --> 00:01:13,240 Speaker 1: pay tribute to someone? Most people would visit a specific 18 00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:16,560 Speaker 1: place like a grave, a memorial, or a site that 19 00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:19,440 Speaker 1: has been well preserved for visitors. But what if you 20 00:01:19,480 --> 00:01:22,640 Speaker 1: don't have any of those places at your disposal? Neither 21 00:01:22,760 --> 00:01:27,759 Speaker 1: India nor Pakistan have any memorials dedicated to partition. There 22 00:01:27,880 --> 00:01:31,280 Speaker 1: is no communal place to reflect on this grief. One 23 00:01:31,280 --> 00:01:33,640 Speaker 1: of the only ways we can ensure that memories and 24 00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:36,600 Speaker 1: stories of those who went through this very distressing event 25 00:01:36,920 --> 00:01:41,280 Speaker 1: don't get lost is by preserving their oral histories. Children 26 00:01:41,280 --> 00:01:44,920 Speaker 1: and grandchildren of partition survivors took it upon themselves to 27 00:01:44,920 --> 00:01:49,080 Speaker 1: start asking questions, recording interviews, and writing down stories that 28 00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:52,960 Speaker 1: their elders told them. It became clear that if they 29 00:01:52,960 --> 00:01:57,680 Speaker 1: didn't note these histories, no one else would. From I 30 00:01:57,800 --> 00:02:02,280 Speaker 1: Heart Radio, I'm Najazi's and This is Partition, a podcast 31 00:02:02,320 --> 00:02:04,840 Speaker 1: that will take a closer look into this often forgotten 32 00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:29,480 Speaker 1: part of history. My grandparents from my father's side, my 33 00:02:29,480 --> 00:02:32,120 Speaker 1: paternal grandparents and my dad when he was a baby, 34 00:02:32,120 --> 00:02:36,480 Speaker 1: they migrated from Lahore to what is now India in 35 00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:39,320 Speaker 1: ninety seven and it was a forced migration. It wasn't 36 00:02:39,360 --> 00:02:41,760 Speaker 1: something that they wanted to do, but you know, like 37 00:02:41,880 --> 00:02:45,240 Speaker 1: millions of people, they were uprooted from their home and uh, 38 00:02:45,720 --> 00:02:47,760 Speaker 1: you know, I grew up in India. The first ten 39 00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:49,480 Speaker 1: years of my life. I was an army kid, so 40 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:53,680 Speaker 1: I lived in a lot of different places, including Gemmuine, Kashmi. 41 00:02:56,160 --> 00:02:59,320 Speaker 1: That's Dr Gunita Singh Bala, the founder of the ninety 42 00:02:59,360 --> 00:03:02,280 Speaker 1: seven Partition an Archive. You may recall her telling us 43 00:03:02,320 --> 00:03:05,200 Speaker 1: about the vast differences between what she learned about partition 44 00:03:05,280 --> 00:03:08,079 Speaker 1: from her family versus what she learned from school from 45 00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:11,680 Speaker 1: episode two. This discrepancy is something that has stayed with 46 00:03:11,720 --> 00:03:16,520 Speaker 1: her for decades. When conned the travel to Japan to 47 00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:20,720 Speaker 1: conduct research for her PhD, she visited the Hiroshima Peace Memorial. 48 00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:23,720 Speaker 1: It was here that she was inspired to document the 49 00:03:23,760 --> 00:03:29,560 Speaker 1: stories of her family and community in an archive. We 50 00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:32,720 Speaker 1: had read books in high school about the history of 51 00:03:32,760 --> 00:03:36,040 Speaker 1: the atomic bombing of Japan and so on, But when 52 00:03:36,080 --> 00:03:39,280 Speaker 1: you hear from survivors, it really fits you in a 53 00:03:39,320 --> 00:03:42,880 Speaker 1: different way because you connect with it on a human level. 54 00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:44,520 Speaker 1: You hear it in their voice, you see it in 55 00:03:44,520 --> 00:03:49,520 Speaker 1: their expressions, you hear how it impacted their very human lives. 56 00:03:51,200 --> 00:03:54,200 Speaker 1: She quickly understood this way of storytelling is one that 57 00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:57,600 Speaker 1: demands attention. It is not something that could easily be 58 00:03:57,680 --> 00:04:02,760 Speaker 1: swept under the road. I realized in that moment that 59 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:07,520 Speaker 1: you know the power of witness testimony, that we needed 60 00:04:07,560 --> 00:04:10,960 Speaker 1: to hear the story of partition directly from people who 61 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:13,120 Speaker 1: lived through it, because if I said something like I 62 00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:16,000 Speaker 1: did to my school teacher was dismissed very easily. But 63 00:04:16,120 --> 00:04:19,440 Speaker 1: when my grandmother, who lived through it, she told it differently. 64 00:04:19,520 --> 00:04:22,400 Speaker 1: She told it through every form of expression available to 65 00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:25,480 Speaker 1: Herder is very instinctive because she had lived through it, 66 00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:29,159 Speaker 1: and you can't really deny that. You know, this was 67 00:04:29,200 --> 00:04:35,599 Speaker 1: Goanitas Aha moment. I sort of casually started recording stories 68 00:04:35,640 --> 00:04:37,680 Speaker 1: on a trip to Punjab in two thousand nine. People 69 00:04:37,680 --> 00:04:40,560 Speaker 1: thought it was insane, like really strange what I was doing. 70 00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:44,320 Speaker 1: People who had witnessed it started to line up and 71 00:04:44,360 --> 00:04:47,120 Speaker 1: it was like, Oh, there's a need, like people want 72 00:04:47,200 --> 00:04:51,600 Speaker 1: to tell their story. Ever since then, Guanita has been 73 00:04:51,600 --> 00:04:55,800 Speaker 1: devoted to collecting these memories. Through this work, she's realized 74 00:04:55,839 --> 00:05:01,039 Speaker 1: that every moment is fleeting. In two nine, I finished 75 00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:03,200 Speaker 1: my pH d and I moved to Berkeley to do 76 00:05:03,279 --> 00:05:06,479 Speaker 1: my post talk and in a family member that I 77 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:08,520 Speaker 1: was going to interview the last member of my family 78 00:05:08,520 --> 00:05:11,560 Speaker 1: in that nineties age group. I forgot my camera when 79 00:05:11,600 --> 00:05:13,680 Speaker 1: I meant to go talk to him before I came 80 00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:16,359 Speaker 1: back a couple of months later with my camera, he died. 81 00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:19,120 Speaker 1: I was like, Wow, this is a wake up call 82 00:05:19,240 --> 00:05:22,800 Speaker 1: like I have lost the adult version of my story 83 00:05:23,040 --> 00:05:25,560 Speaker 1: or in my family, but there are millions of other 84 00:05:25,600 --> 00:05:30,480 Speaker 1: families out there who still have this memory of partisition 85 00:05:30,520 --> 00:05:32,880 Speaker 1: and it needs to be documented for the world forgets. 86 00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:39,560 Speaker 1: She said. It was overwhelming and overpowering, and there was 87 00:05:39,640 --> 00:05:43,960 Speaker 1: nothing that was going to stop her. Every cell in 88 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:49,719 Speaker 1: my body was committed into making this happen. At this time, 89 00:05:49,880 --> 00:05:53,440 Speaker 1: Counta had a strenuous career as an experimental condensed matter 90 00:05:53,520 --> 00:05:57,800 Speaker 1: physicist at UC Berkeley. She was working constantly, but somehow 91 00:05:57,839 --> 00:05:59,839 Speaker 1: she was still able to find time to look for 92 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:05,680 Speaker 1: objects to interview. Somehow, I was finding time to go 93 00:06:05,880 --> 00:06:10,320 Speaker 1: and table at mosques and Mondays and Goodwias in the 94 00:06:10,360 --> 00:06:14,040 Speaker 1: Bay Area, and people were lining up to sign up 95 00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:18,360 Speaker 1: to tell their story. She realized she needed to enlist 96 00:06:18,360 --> 00:06:20,280 Speaker 1: people to help her if she wanted to keep up 97 00:06:20,279 --> 00:06:26,160 Speaker 1: with the demand. So I started speaking at student clubs 98 00:06:26,240 --> 00:06:29,400 Speaker 1: at various South Asian groups. You know, I was new 99 00:06:29,440 --> 00:06:30,920 Speaker 1: to the barrier. I didn't know anyone, which I think 100 00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:34,679 Speaker 1: really helped because I didn't have that fear of judgment, 101 00:06:34,839 --> 00:06:36,440 Speaker 1: you know. I kind of just started doing this stuff. 102 00:06:37,279 --> 00:06:41,320 Speaker 1: So that's how our initial teams were formed, and it 103 00:06:41,440 --> 00:06:43,800 Speaker 1: was just um. You know, there was a lot of obstacles, 104 00:06:43,839 --> 00:06:46,880 Speaker 1: but I think when you are so drunk on an 105 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:49,680 Speaker 1: idea and you're so absolutely committed and you feel it 106 00:06:49,720 --> 00:06:52,320 Speaker 1: to your core, nothing can stop you. So that's how 107 00:06:52,320 --> 00:06:56,680 Speaker 1: it happened. And I was working around the clock. She 108 00:06:56,760 --> 00:06:59,240 Speaker 1: recalls her home turning into a library in a way. 109 00:06:59,839 --> 00:07:02,280 Speaker 1: She had a lot of video and recording equipment from 110 00:07:02,279 --> 00:07:05,919 Speaker 1: a variety of places. Sometimes people would stop by and 111 00:07:06,040 --> 00:07:09,120 Speaker 1: borrow tape recorders and other equipment from her to record 112 00:07:09,240 --> 00:07:12,880 Speaker 1: oral histories of people they knew. Knita spent hours and 113 00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:19,160 Speaker 1: hours digitizing all the tapes she collected. So my computer 114 00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:22,679 Speaker 1: was running seven UM. So that's kind of how it started. 115 00:07:23,360 --> 00:07:25,880 Speaker 1: We started teaching in order to you know, the idea 116 00:07:25,960 --> 00:07:28,800 Speaker 1: was the crowdsource. Basically, the idea was that you can 117 00:07:28,920 --> 00:07:31,960 Speaker 1: use the internet to get support from other people to 118 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:34,760 Speaker 1: solve big problems. So I was like, well, why don't 119 00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:38,720 Speaker 1: we do that, Why don't we come together to document partition? 120 00:07:39,440 --> 00:07:43,040 Speaker 1: So we collaborated with MUC Berkeley's Regional Oral History Office 121 00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:48,400 Speaker 1: and UM learned how to conduct oral histories properly, developed 122 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:50,480 Speaker 1: training modules, and you know, I had a lot of 123 00:07:50,480 --> 00:07:53,080 Speaker 1: teaching experience in other fields, but it was very easy 124 00:07:53,120 --> 00:07:58,800 Speaker 1: to adapt that to oral history. She created a webinar 125 00:07:58,960 --> 00:08:01,880 Speaker 1: where thousands of people all over the world could take 126 00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:05,440 Speaker 1: a course and learn how to record these histories. What 127 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:09,680 Speaker 1: was originally a side project turned into a fully fledged organization. 128 00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:16,520 Speaker 1: We've documented stories from I believe fourteen or fifteen countries 129 00:08:16,560 --> 00:08:19,760 Speaker 1: at this point, more than five hundred cities and villages, 130 00:08:19,960 --> 00:08:23,480 Speaker 1: thirty six languages, over ten thousand oral histories of partition, 131 00:08:23,520 --> 00:08:31,240 Speaker 1: which was our founding goal. To showcase the magnitude of 132 00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:34,160 Speaker 1: what Kunita created, I'm going to walk you through the website. 133 00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:41,280 Speaker 1: Once you reach the Partition Archive, you're showing a map 134 00:08:41,440 --> 00:08:45,960 Speaker 1: that is incredibly interactive. You can see where people migrated from, 135 00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:50,040 Speaker 1: where they migrated to their current city. You can zoom 136 00:08:50,040 --> 00:08:53,040 Speaker 1: in on different areas, and you can see the number 137 00:08:53,240 --> 00:08:57,080 Speaker 1: of stories that are located in each city and village. 138 00:08:58,280 --> 00:09:04,600 Speaker 1: It's truly truly in heat a bowl. Within moments, you 139 00:09:04,640 --> 00:09:10,400 Speaker 1: have thousands of stories of partition survivors at your fingertips. 140 00:09:10,400 --> 00:09:13,840 Speaker 1: That being said, one unfortunate and common reality of partition 141 00:09:14,080 --> 00:09:17,199 Speaker 1: is that many people are still looking for siblings, friends, 142 00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:19,920 Speaker 1: and other loved ones whom they were separated from back 143 00:09:19,960 --> 00:09:23,440 Speaker 1: in ninety seven, I asked Anita if she came across 144 00:09:23,520 --> 00:09:28,440 Speaker 1: any stories like this. Yes, we have connected lots and 145 00:09:28,520 --> 00:09:31,760 Speaker 1: lots of brothers and sisters, friends and family and cousins 146 00:09:31,760 --> 00:09:34,920 Speaker 1: who were separated in so that's been part of our 147 00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:40,400 Speaker 1: work for a decade now. Interestingly, I had documented this man, 148 00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:44,400 Speaker 1: l Bano. I had documented his grandmother's story in the 149 00:09:44,480 --> 00:09:47,000 Speaker 1: San Francisco Bay area, and he was really inspired by 150 00:09:47,040 --> 00:09:51,120 Speaker 1: what we were doing. The man wanted these interviews to 151 00:09:51,160 --> 00:09:53,680 Speaker 1: be put up on YouTube, but the archive was unable 152 00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:56,679 Speaker 1: to do that at that time. In this discussion, I 153 00:09:56,760 --> 00:09:58,760 Speaker 1: told her about an article I read earlier in the 154 00:09:58,840 --> 00:10:03,040 Speaker 1: Washington Post about two brothers who are reunited after seventy 155 00:10:03,120 --> 00:10:06,199 Speaker 1: four years, and in a lovely and surprising twist, the 156 00:10:06,280 --> 00:10:09,559 Speaker 1: same man she mentioned helped create the same YouTube channel 157 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:15,319 Speaker 1: that showcase the brothers meeting again. He actually started his 158 00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:18,559 Speaker 1: own channel. It's called Punjabi Lahire. It's a live thing. 159 00:10:18,640 --> 00:10:21,439 Speaker 1: They go when they talk to people who migrated in 160 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:25,199 Speaker 1: the same thing as us, but they focus only on 161 00:10:25,240 --> 00:10:27,599 Speaker 1: pun job and they do it live. And it's not 162 00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:30,040 Speaker 1: like the rigular squirrel history, if you will, it's more 163 00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:33,920 Speaker 1: like a conversation and uh, you know, like a little 164 00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:35,839 Speaker 1: TV show where they visit. It's a beautiful thing that 165 00:10:35,880 --> 00:10:43,320 Speaker 1: they've done well. Friends and family being reunited after decades 166 00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:46,520 Speaker 1: is a wonderful thing to see. These moments are constantly 167 00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:52,200 Speaker 1: plagued by the unmaleable borders of India and Pakistan. India 168 00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:55,480 Speaker 1: and Pakistan have a very complex relationship with each other 169 00:10:55,880 --> 00:10:59,280 Speaker 1: because of the lasting legacy of partition. It is still 170 00:10:59,360 --> 00:11:02,360 Speaker 1: near impos sable today for Pakistan needs to visit India 171 00:11:02,760 --> 00:11:07,280 Speaker 1: and for Indians to visit Pakistan. The wounds of still 172 00:11:07,400 --> 00:11:11,199 Speaker 1: run very deep. Goodita and I really commiserate over this 173 00:11:12,760 --> 00:11:14,760 Speaker 1: in my twenties when I was like traveling all over 174 00:11:14,840 --> 00:11:17,840 Speaker 1: the world for conferences during this enough for my academic 175 00:11:17,920 --> 00:11:20,760 Speaker 1: work and even in general, you know, just for fun. 176 00:11:21,440 --> 00:11:23,360 Speaker 1: I was really floored by the fact that it was 177 00:11:23,440 --> 00:11:26,960 Speaker 1: so easy for me to travel everywhere except Pakistan. That's 178 00:11:27,040 --> 00:11:32,360 Speaker 1: like the motherland, that's where we're all from. She was 179 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:34,800 Speaker 1: a lot more composed in our conversation than I was, 180 00:11:35,360 --> 00:11:38,120 Speaker 1: but we came to a hopeful thought. Perhaps with a 181 00:11:38,240 --> 00:11:40,920 Speaker 1: number of oral history projects out there and the more 182 00:11:41,040 --> 00:11:44,240 Speaker 1: stories of reunions coming out, there is a slight glimmer 183 00:11:44,480 --> 00:11:47,959 Speaker 1: that maybe slowly, but surely, these walls and barriers will 184 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:55,120 Speaker 1: come down. Now we have people who made the effort 185 00:11:55,280 --> 00:11:59,400 Speaker 1: to open up that recorridor. People are starting to take 186 00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:02,199 Speaker 1: small step up and I think projects like ours and 187 00:12:02,320 --> 00:12:08,160 Speaker 1: others are helping to break those boundaries. Finally, the Cathar 188 00:12:08,240 --> 00:12:11,160 Speaker 1: Pork Corridor is home to a sea holy site that 189 00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:14,040 Speaker 1: is on the Bakistani side of the border. It's it's 190 00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:16,600 Speaker 1: only three miles from India and it wasn't until two 191 00:12:17,760 --> 00:12:21,280 Speaker 1: that the area became a visa free crossing. This corridor 192 00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:24,800 Speaker 1: was the only way the aforementioned brothers could physically meet. 193 00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:28,439 Speaker 1: I think if we keep working at it, all of 194 00:12:28,559 --> 00:12:32,120 Speaker 1: us in our generation, I think we can help you 195 00:12:32,320 --> 00:12:35,400 Speaker 1: praise some of these tensions which really don't need to 196 00:12:35,480 --> 00:13:06,400 Speaker 1: be there if you really dig deep. At the top 197 00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:08,839 Speaker 1: of the episode, the voice you heard was of author 198 00:13:08,960 --> 00:13:13,440 Speaker 1: and oral historian until Molotra. She acknowledged her fear about 199 00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:16,680 Speaker 1: these stories disappearing if there wasn't a record of them anywhere. 200 00:13:17,559 --> 00:13:20,040 Speaker 1: Over many years, she has talked to numerous people about 201 00:13:20,080 --> 00:13:23,560 Speaker 1: partition and their memories associated with it, but it wasn't 202 00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:26,240 Speaker 1: until two thirteen she thought to start writing a book 203 00:13:26,520 --> 00:13:30,600 Speaker 1: called Remnants of Partition twenty one objects from a continent divided. 204 00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:37,480 Speaker 1: It might seem strange to some that I have written 205 00:13:37,520 --> 00:13:40,720 Speaker 1: a book about mere objects carried across the border, when 206 00:13:40,760 --> 00:13:43,120 Speaker 1: I could very well have written about the enormity of 207 00:13:43,320 --> 00:13:47,040 Speaker 1: memory and experience that survives. And I must admit that 208 00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:50,760 Speaker 1: at times during my interviews I did feel uncomfortable and 209 00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:54,920 Speaker 1: perhaps even petty, to be continually asking about things people 210 00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:58,480 Speaker 1: brought when clearly they had witnessed so much horror along 211 00:13:58,520 --> 00:14:03,199 Speaker 1: the path to safety. But still I would persist, what 212 00:14:03,360 --> 00:14:07,000 Speaker 1: did you bring? How much did you bring? How did 213 00:14:07,080 --> 00:14:14,320 Speaker 1: you bring it? What did you leave behind? Why? These things? Things? Things, things. 214 00:14:14,840 --> 00:14:17,440 Speaker 1: I have learned to say things in so many different languages. 215 00:14:17,480 --> 00:14:21,400 Speaker 1: It alarms me. But I will say this that continuing 216 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:24,840 Speaker 1: to remember clearly as very difficult. And so my entry 217 00:14:24,920 --> 00:14:28,440 Speaker 1: point into the memory of that time remains the material object, 218 00:14:28,880 --> 00:14:33,560 Speaker 1: the personal possession. It is still my main gateway and 219 00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:37,680 Speaker 1: the life before it fabrics and documents and soil and 220 00:14:37,840 --> 00:14:46,920 Speaker 1: stones and touch and smell and caress. In October, Unto 221 00:14:47,040 --> 00:14:49,600 Speaker 1: was on sabbatical from grad school and returned to India. 222 00:14:50,160 --> 00:14:52,160 Speaker 1: One of her friends mentioned to her that he was 223 00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:55,160 Speaker 1: writing about old houses in billy. He was interested in 224 00:14:55,280 --> 00:15:05,400 Speaker 1: visiting Until's nanas her maternal grandfather's home phrase project Manana's 225 00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:08,400 Speaker 1: eldest brother. I remember he left the room and he 226 00:15:08,520 --> 00:15:11,360 Speaker 1: came back with an array of objects, and he said 227 00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:13,720 Speaker 1: that if you have to talk about the past, then 228 00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:16,160 Speaker 1: you know these objects are also old, and you must 229 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:18,880 Speaker 1: talk about them as well. And two objects from that pile, 230 00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:21,960 Speaker 1: which were a medium sized vessel in which Lessie has 231 00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:26,240 Speaker 1: made out and a yardstick or the gas, had been 232 00:15:26,280 --> 00:15:30,120 Speaker 1: carried by his family from lower to Lizza, and they 233 00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:32,480 Speaker 1: were obviously by five and older than the house Pap 234 00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:37,120 Speaker 1: was standing in. And I had never seen those objects before. 235 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:40,640 Speaker 1: They were so ordinary, so mundane, and there was nothing 236 00:15:40,760 --> 00:15:45,240 Speaker 1: exceptional about it, except for the stories that emerged when 237 00:15:45,640 --> 00:15:49,920 Speaker 1: he began touching the object, caressing it, talking about it. 238 00:15:50,680 --> 00:15:54,400 Speaker 1: It's like he remembered his childhood in law. He remembered 239 00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:58,320 Speaker 1: the gully, remembered eating chilgos as, he remembered drinking the 240 00:15:58,440 --> 00:16:01,560 Speaker 1: kind of you know, what makes a giant. He remembered 241 00:16:01,600 --> 00:16:04,600 Speaker 1: what the house looks like. He remembered his father using 242 00:16:04,680 --> 00:16:07,080 Speaker 1: the yard stick in their clothing store. He remembered their 243 00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:09,920 Speaker 1: mother making lesstie in the girl, and it was just 244 00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:16,160 Speaker 1: such a visceral transportation. Uncle's words brought me back to 245 00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:18,680 Speaker 1: the conversation I had with my mom in episode one, 246 00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:20,600 Speaker 1: where she said she would take a photo of her 247 00:16:20,640 --> 00:16:24,680 Speaker 1: family an object that couldn't easily be replaced. I often 248 00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:28,320 Speaker 1: think about what my family members brought with them, A newspaper, 249 00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:32,360 Speaker 1: a book, a piece from a school uniform. I can 250 00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:35,240 Speaker 1: only really wonder since my living grandparents don't remember what 251 00:16:35,360 --> 00:16:38,680 Speaker 1: they brought after seventy five years have passed. When I 252 00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:42,840 Speaker 1: saw the item question from home, I asked myself, what 253 00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:44,920 Speaker 1: would I have brought if I was in this position. 254 00:16:45,760 --> 00:16:47,640 Speaker 1: From time to time this question pops up in my 255 00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:54,120 Speaker 1: head and I still don't have any idea. So I 256 00:16:54,280 --> 00:16:57,760 Speaker 1: just had never considered objects to be photos of the past, 257 00:16:57,800 --> 00:17:00,120 Speaker 1: which of course they are, you know, the mini you 258 00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:03,440 Speaker 1: infuse them with memories, and I think that kind of 259 00:17:03,880 --> 00:17:07,439 Speaker 1: unfolding of the past that happened that afternoon, I couldn't 260 00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:11,879 Speaker 1: forget it, and I kept thinking about what people carry. 261 00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:15,119 Speaker 1: Actually that was the first thought, like what did they carry? 262 00:17:15,240 --> 00:17:18,000 Speaker 1: And how could they carry things? And you know, if 263 00:17:18,040 --> 00:17:20,800 Speaker 1: you're leaving your home at a moment's notice, one of 264 00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:22,840 Speaker 1: the things that you take what is valuable to you 265 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:26,040 Speaker 1: emotionally or monetary. What do you carry? And so I 266 00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:30,080 Speaker 1: basically started a small exercise for myself and Danny, asking 267 00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:33,679 Speaker 1: refugees when migrated at the time of partition what they carried. 268 00:17:35,920 --> 00:17:38,560 Speaker 1: One of the chapters and Remnants of Partition is devoted 269 00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:42,040 Speaker 1: to Anto's grandmother, Bubma Lochra, who speaks of a piece 270 00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:49,800 Speaker 1: of druy that belonged to her mother. I showed you then, 271 00:17:50,840 --> 00:17:54,360 Speaker 1: but almost forgot that. My mother brought one other thing 272 00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:57,560 Speaker 1: with her all the way from the French til it 273 00:17:57,840 --> 00:18:00,040 Speaker 1: was the only thing She made sure to take it, 274 00:18:00,840 --> 00:18:03,840 Speaker 1: and now it is with me. But you have seen 275 00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:08,480 Speaker 1: it already many times. This was once a month taka, 276 00:18:09,359 --> 00:18:12,840 Speaker 1: something to be worn on the head. The stones are 277 00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:16,639 Speaker 1: peculiar to the frontier and upon only in that region. 278 00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:20,119 Speaker 1: My mother received it as a wedding gift from her 279 00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:22,840 Speaker 1: mother in law, and I believe it had been in 280 00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:27,040 Speaker 1: my father's family for quite a while before that. But 281 00:18:27,280 --> 00:18:31,040 Speaker 1: what I remember, she never worried after her wedding sermon, 282 00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:35,760 Speaker 1: just looked at it from time to time. When she 283 00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:40,240 Speaker 1: left Pakistan, though, she made sure to bring it because 284 00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:43,000 Speaker 1: she thought she could send it and get some money 285 00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:47,000 Speaker 1: to raise and educate us. I remember her telling us 286 00:18:47,080 --> 00:18:49,320 Speaker 1: how she had tied it within the codes of her 287 00:18:49,400 --> 00:18:52,919 Speaker 1: clothes for fear of being robbed on a way to Delhi, 288 00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:57,000 Speaker 1: which was precious. It would have brought us a happy 289 00:18:57,119 --> 00:19:01,000 Speaker 1: sum even at that time, but I don't think she 290 00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:04,440 Speaker 1: could have parted with it, and in a way, this 291 00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:08,800 Speaker 1: piece of jury was the only thing that remained of 292 00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:21,439 Speaker 1: her leg Once again, the subject of the borders came 293 00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:24,600 Speaker 1: up in addition to being an author until co created 294 00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:28,040 Speaker 1: the Museum of Material Memory with her friend Navva Malocha. 295 00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:32,679 Speaker 1: This online depository shares the same idea of objects telling stories. 296 00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:39,639 Speaker 1: So as I was working on recording stories of objects, 297 00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:42,320 Speaker 1: many people who started getting in touch with me that 298 00:19:42,680 --> 00:19:45,400 Speaker 1: had nothing to do with partition, but had aged objects 299 00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:49,160 Speaker 1: in their home. And these objects were sometimes even used, 300 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:52,240 Speaker 1: you know, like you tensity in the kitchen, or fabrics 301 00:19:52,320 --> 00:19:54,840 Speaker 1: that had been fast down the generation that was still worn, 302 00:19:55,840 --> 00:19:59,280 Speaker 1: and they would ask me to come and write stories 303 00:19:59,320 --> 00:20:03,760 Speaker 1: about this. But I started thinking firstly about the accessibility 304 00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:06,240 Speaker 1: of the archives. You know, I am based in India, 305 00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:09,200 Speaker 1: but I would love for things to be seen by everybody. 306 00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:13,520 Speaker 1: And by everybody I mean Indians in the diaspora, Pakistani's, 307 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:18,280 Speaker 1: Bangladesh's the dietspor of those two countries, nepolis of Ghanies, 308 00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:21,960 Speaker 1: people from Sri Lanka. How would you do that? And 309 00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:25,320 Speaker 1: the other thing I started thinking about was wouldn't it 310 00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:29,080 Speaker 1: be great if people started archiving stories of their objects 311 00:20:29,119 --> 00:20:35,080 Speaker 1: on their own. She emphasizes that intergenerational stories unrelated to 312 00:20:35,160 --> 00:20:37,560 Speaker 1: partition are just as important for the public to know. 313 00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:41,000 Speaker 1: Much like Pertica's work from last week's episode, the idea 314 00:20:41,119 --> 00:20:44,600 Speaker 1: of accessibility and resonating with one another across borders is 315 00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:50,320 Speaker 1: a vital Then I think that by doing that, we 316 00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:53,920 Speaker 1: not only are able to encompass obviously more of the 317 00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:57,280 Speaker 1: geographic diversity, but also include, you know, those kinds of 318 00:20:57,320 --> 00:21:00,439 Speaker 1: communities that really want impacted by partition, but who histories 319 00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:03,320 Speaker 1: have also gone and recorded. And I think the object 320 00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:05,879 Speaker 1: is a great way to enter into something that is 321 00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:08,880 Speaker 1: relatively unknown because you have something tangible in your hand 322 00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:12,960 Speaker 1: with a region whose borders continue to be so tenuinue. 323 00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:16,399 Speaker 1: Sometimes the digital is really a gift because it is 324 00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:22,800 Speaker 1: borderless and it allows us to converse. Really, I mean, yeah, 325 00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:24,879 Speaker 1: the internet can be a really harmful place in that 326 00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:27,320 Speaker 1: sense as well, but I think for us it was 327 00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:30,639 Speaker 1: really a gift because the common section of the archive 328 00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:36,000 Speaker 1: is really beautiful because people find I suppose the aspects 329 00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:38,600 Speaker 1: of themselves and other people's objects, or my mother had 330 00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:41,200 Speaker 1: something like that, or how intested Can you tell me 331 00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:44,000 Speaker 1: where you're from? My grandfather migrated from that place, you know. 332 00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:47,280 Speaker 1: So I think it was really about storytelling through the objects. 333 00:21:48,359 --> 00:21:50,960 Speaker 1: You can't walk on the soil of your ancestors because 334 00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:53,879 Speaker 1: of this border. There are a lot of obstacles standing 335 00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:57,400 Speaker 1: between you and your history. But I think the great 336 00:21:57,440 --> 00:22:02,119 Speaker 1: paradox of partition also is when Indians in Pakistani's meat overseas, 337 00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:06,040 Speaker 1: and how they immediately relate to one another and they 338 00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:09,119 Speaker 1: feel like they're speaking to their own. You know, I 339 00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:12,680 Speaker 1: am Indian and you are Pakistani Maia, but I know 340 00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:16,240 Speaker 1: so many nas that I dove and I have. I 341 00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:18,480 Speaker 1: feel like you are one of my own because you 342 00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:21,320 Speaker 1: relate to what I say, you understand my language, you 343 00:22:21,359 --> 00:22:25,159 Speaker 1: can pronounce my name in the right way. We have 344 00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:29,000 Speaker 1: shared history, which ultimately also means we have shared things, 345 00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:33,080 Speaker 1: which eventually, I hope, over the years, will mean we 346 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:40,440 Speaker 1: can have shared reconciliation. It was at this point that 347 00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:43,960 Speaker 1: I began to cry. Unhel touched upon the truth that 348 00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:47,480 Speaker 1: I'm sure Indians and Pakistani's must know to be universal, 349 00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:50,159 Speaker 1: is that there is so much more that unites us 350 00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:53,800 Speaker 1: than divides us. I told her that I don't consider 351 00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:56,760 Speaker 1: myself a pessimist. I may be more of a realist. 352 00:22:56,960 --> 00:22:59,879 Speaker 1: But the light and optimism that Antil possesses on a 353 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:02,440 Speaker 1: soy made me reconsider the mentality I have for my 354 00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:08,600 Speaker 1: everyday life. I think it's very easy to be quite 355 00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:12,040 Speaker 1: sad about what has happened in the past, but partition, 356 00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:15,879 Speaker 1: it can teach us less for the future. It can 357 00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:17,879 Speaker 1: teach us how we want to live in the present, 358 00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:20,199 Speaker 1: what kind of future we want to have for our children. 359 00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:24,040 Speaker 1: And I know that the work I'm doing it may 360 00:23:24,119 --> 00:23:27,239 Speaker 1: not make a difference, because one book cannot really make 361 00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:34,960 Speaker 1: a difference. But you know, many writers together, many artists together, musicians, dances, choreographers, filmmakers, 362 00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:38,760 Speaker 1: a cultural movement can make a difference. You see Miss 363 00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:43,879 Speaker 1: Marvel in Hollywood and you feel seen. You feel like 364 00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:46,560 Speaker 1: the pain that you may not have been able to 365 00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:50,560 Speaker 1: voice ever has found the voice and you feel like, yeah, 366 00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:52,919 Speaker 1: this is my story. When I watched Miss Marvel, I'm 367 00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:56,400 Speaker 1: not Pakistani I'm not an immigrant. I don't live in America. 368 00:23:56,520 --> 00:24:00,840 Speaker 1: But everything that Kamala lived through, that can with how history. 369 00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:05,120 Speaker 1: Being in garages, speaking to her grandmother, trying to make 370 00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:08,920 Speaker 1: new associations with this catastrophic event that she has not 371 00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:12,240 Speaker 1: lived through but has defined the generations of her family. 372 00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:16,480 Speaker 1: I related to that. I think that you know, empathy 373 00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:19,600 Speaker 1: is borderless. You don't need to be Indian Pakistani to 374 00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:24,560 Speaker 1: be able to empathize. One of my interview is said 375 00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:29,800 Speaker 1: to me that governments divide far easier than people. I 376 00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:41,879 Speaker 1: think it's true. Next time on Partition, I spoke to 377 00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:45,120 Speaker 1: Shanty Dungary about how he escaped from Lahore to Kashmir. 378 00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:49,639 Speaker 1: In He shared an abundance of herring memories with me. 379 00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:57,120 Speaker 1: So I would listen to the radio, read the newspaper, 380 00:24:57,359 --> 00:25:01,000 Speaker 1: and there were articles about the fire and down down Lahore. 381 00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:08,040 Speaker 1: In con we started wadding about what's going to happen 382 00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:18,200 Speaker 1: men of your summer lives until next week. I'm nass 383 00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:25,440 Speaker 1: and this is Partition. Partition was developed as a part 384 00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:29,080 Speaker 1: of the Next Up initiative created by Anna Hosnier, Joel 385 00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:34,320 Speaker 1: Monique and Sina Median. Partition is produced by Anna Hosnier, 386 00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:39,439 Speaker 1: Tricia Mukerjee and Becca Ramos. It is edited by Rory Gagan, 387 00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:42,520 Speaker 1: with the original score composed by Mark Hadley.