1 00:00:17,282 --> 00:00:17,792 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:22,422 --> 00:00:23,202 Speaker 2: Hey, Drilled listeners. 3 00:00:23,422 --> 00:00:26,622 Speaker 1: It's me, Amy. Guess what? I wrote a book. If 4 00:00:26,722 --> 00:00:31,862 Speaker 1: you have ever liked a single podcast episode of Drilled, 5 00:00:31,882 --> 00:00:33,942 Speaker 1: you're going to love this book. It's called Brought to 6 00:00:33,982 --> 00:00:38,062 Speaker 1: You By, How Corporations Warped the Truth, Conned the Public, 7 00:00:38,262 --> 00:00:41,652 Speaker 1: and Broke Democracy. It's out a little later this month 8 00:00:41,752 --> 00:00:45,032 Speaker 1: from Bloomsbury. I'm going to stick a link for pre-ordering 9 00:00:45,092 --> 00:00:48,512 Speaker 1: it in the show notes. It traces how the information 10 00:00:48,612 --> 00:00:52,392 Speaker 1: ecosystem has been warped by corporations using everything from PR 11 00:00:52,952 --> 00:00:59,302 Speaker 1: firms to think tanks, management consultancies, litigation even, and university 12 00:00:59,362 --> 00:01:02,302 Speaker 1: research centers. Some of it is stuff we've covered in 13 00:01:02,342 --> 00:01:05,492 Speaker 1: the show. A lot of it is new. Tons and 14 00:01:05,532 --> 00:01:08,771 Speaker 1: tons of investigative work went into this and I think 15 00:01:08,831 --> 00:01:11,772 Speaker 1: you're going to like it. Hopefully it will help. Personally, 16 00:01:11,911 --> 00:01:15,021 Speaker 1: I think it explains everything about how we're in the 17 00:01:15,062 --> 00:01:18,081 Speaker 1: situation we're in today. Please pick up a copy now 18 00:01:18,222 --> 00:01:21,342 Speaker 1: if you can. Pre-orders are very, very helpful. They're the 19 00:01:21,381 --> 00:01:24,862 Speaker 1: thing that apparently determines whether you get onto bestseller lists. 20 00:01:25,002 --> 00:01:29,122 Speaker 1: So help me out, folks. Buy the book. All right, 21 00:01:29,222 --> 00:01:36,762 Speaker 1: back to the show. I'm Amy Westervelt, and this is Drilled. 22 00:01:37,502 --> 00:01:41,962 Speaker 1: Over the past couple episodes, you've heard in detail how TigerSwan, 23 00:01:42,122 --> 00:01:46,062 Speaker 1: the private security firm hired by Energy Transfer to deal 24 00:01:46,101 --> 00:01:51,092 Speaker 1: with these Standing Rock protests, mounted a propaganda campaign aimed 25 00:01:51,152 --> 00:01:55,192 Speaker 1: at fanning the flames of division in the community and 26 00:01:55,312 --> 00:02:00,182 Speaker 1: turning people against the protesters as much as possible. Today, 27 00:02:00,202 --> 00:02:02,082 Speaker 1: we're going to do something a little bit different. We're 28 00:02:02,102 --> 00:02:05,482 Speaker 1: going to hear from Aline about her work reporting on 29 00:02:05,662 --> 00:02:08,242 Speaker 1: the Standing Rock movement and the backlash to it over 30 00:02:08,282 --> 00:02:12,782 Speaker 1: the past 10 years. That conversation is coming up right now. 31 00:02:24,152 --> 00:02:27,352 Speaker 1: You're someone who covered Standing Rock 10 years ago. Why 32 00:02:27,372 --> 00:02:30,122 Speaker 1: don't you tell us a What things were like when 33 00:02:30,162 --> 00:02:33,582 Speaker 1: you very first arrived to cover the Standing Rock protests? 34 00:02:33,602 --> 00:02:36,762 Speaker 1: Like how much of this stuff was going on when 35 00:02:36,802 --> 00:02:40,781 Speaker 1: you first got there and how visible was it? How 36 00:02:40,842 --> 00:02:43,012 Speaker 1: long did it take you to see that this stuff 37 00:02:43,052 --> 00:02:45,372 Speaker 1: was like happening behind the scenes? 38 00:02:47,072 --> 00:02:51,712 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, it was November 2016 when I went 39 00:02:51,852 --> 00:02:57,922 Speaker 2: to the Standing Rock camps and I already the issue 40 00:02:57,982 --> 00:03:01,862 Speaker 2: of surveillance was really on people's minds. You know, I 41 00:03:02,102 --> 00:03:04,892 Speaker 2: think that at the time I was a staff reporter 42 00:03:05,012 --> 00:03:08,032 Speaker 2: at The Intercept and, you know, that's an outlet that 43 00:03:08,072 --> 00:03:11,352 Speaker 2: does a lot of coverage of national security issues as 44 00:03:11,462 --> 00:03:14,802 Speaker 2: well as different forms of state surveillance. So that's a 45 00:03:14,842 --> 00:03:18,102 Speaker 2: specific issue that I was interested in. There was a 46 00:03:18,182 --> 00:03:22,362 Speaker 2: lot of concern at that time about there being surveillance 47 00:03:22,422 --> 00:03:26,522 Speaker 2: on people's phones, weird issues with phone batteries draining, and 48 00:03:27,412 --> 00:03:32,172 Speaker 2: things that even now, having looked through massive troves of 49 00:03:32,452 --> 00:03:36,752 Speaker 2: internal records from police and private security, I haven't seen 50 00:03:37,632 --> 00:03:40,172 Speaker 2: proof that people's phones were being hacked or anything. But 51 00:03:40,212 --> 00:03:42,832 Speaker 2: that was something people were really thinking about. You know, 52 00:03:42,892 --> 00:03:45,812 Speaker 2: when I got there, there were like little planes flying 53 00:03:45,892 --> 00:03:51,052 Speaker 2: over all the time. There was a police barrier, you know, 54 00:03:51,092 --> 00:03:57,082 Speaker 2: blocking a highway. It very much had a militarized vibe. 55 00:03:57,282 --> 00:04:00,122 Speaker 2: And there were a lot of people there. So people 56 00:04:00,342 --> 00:04:02,722 Speaker 2: people were scared. And, you know, this was kind of 57 00:04:02,762 --> 00:04:05,862 Speaker 2: at the midpoint, I would say, ish of that movement. 58 00:04:06,182 --> 00:04:10,912 Speaker 1: Yeah. What was the first Rob Rice video that you 59 00:04:11,012 --> 00:04:11,472 Speaker 1: ever saw? 60 00:04:12,862 --> 00:04:17,162 Speaker 2: Wow, that is a long time ago. Yeah, so I 61 00:04:17,282 --> 00:04:20,892 Speaker 2: first heard the name Robert Rice, you know, just to 62 00:04:20,992 --> 00:04:23,052 Speaker 2: back up a little bit and tell this story. I 63 00:04:23,092 --> 00:04:25,772 Speaker 2: was at The Intercept. I had visited Standing Rock. I 64 00:04:25,812 --> 00:04:31,412 Speaker 2: had written a couple stories and I had come home, 65 00:04:31,692 --> 00:04:35,002 Speaker 2: you know. While I was at The Intercept, the outlet 66 00:04:35,102 --> 00:04:41,442 Speaker 2: received basically this massive trove of internal records from the 67 00:04:41,482 --> 00:04:45,422 Speaker 2: private security company that was hired to, I guess, like 68 00:04:45,542 --> 00:04:50,862 Speaker 2: protect the pipeline. That company was called TigerSwan. And these 69 00:04:50,962 --> 00:04:56,992 Speaker 2: records were daily situation reports. So they described what the 70 00:04:57,312 --> 00:05:00,252 Speaker 2: security company was seeing on the ground or what they 71 00:05:00,272 --> 00:05:01,812 Speaker 2: claimed to be seeing, what they were seeing on social 72 00:05:01,852 --> 00:05:04,242 Speaker 2: media as well. and a little bit about what they 73 00:05:04,262 --> 00:05:06,702 Speaker 2: were doing. These were reports that were going directly to 74 00:05:06,762 --> 00:05:10,622 Speaker 2: their bosses, which was the pipeline company Energy Transfer. It 75 00:05:10,642 --> 00:05:14,062 Speaker 2: was called Energy Transfer Partners at the time. And so, 76 00:05:14,112 --> 00:05:18,692 Speaker 2: you know, they had an interest in making sure these protests, 77 00:05:18,732 --> 00:05:22,812 Speaker 2: this movement appeared dangerous. They wanted to keep their contract. 78 00:05:22,912 --> 00:05:24,552 Speaker 2: So we were kind of like very aware of that 79 00:05:24,672 --> 00:05:27,392 Speaker 2: as we were starting to go through these files. But 80 00:05:27,682 --> 00:05:30,822 Speaker 2: there was this line in there that was a little 81 00:05:30,842 --> 00:05:33,802 Speaker 2: bit surprising. And I can't think of exactly what it 82 00:05:33,822 --> 00:05:36,442 Speaker 2: said off the top of my head, but it basically 83 00:05:36,542 --> 00:05:43,502 Speaker 2: said that TigerSwan was overseeing an information operation and this guy, 84 00:05:43,562 --> 00:05:47,742 Speaker 2: Robert Rice, was involved. So me and my colleagues at 85 00:05:47,762 --> 00:05:49,622 Speaker 2: The Intercept were like, what is this? You know, I 86 00:05:49,622 --> 00:05:52,252 Speaker 2: was working with Aliche Sperry as well as the freelancer 87 00:05:52,292 --> 00:05:55,192 Speaker 2: Will Parrish at the time. And we were like, oh, 88 00:05:55,512 --> 00:06:00,282 Speaker 2: information operation, what is this? We quickly tracked down this 89 00:06:00,482 --> 00:06:06,142 Speaker 2: Facebook page called Netizens for Progress and Justice and also 90 00:06:06,202 --> 00:06:09,782 Speaker 2: another page called Defend Iowa. These pages just had a 91 00:06:09,942 --> 00:06:13,262 Speaker 2: lot of sort of, I guess I would categorize it 92 00:06:13,432 --> 00:06:17,572 Speaker 2: as anti-protest type information, just a lot of different kinds 93 00:06:17,632 --> 00:06:18,171 Speaker 2: of messaging. 94 00:06:18,732 --> 00:06:22,092 Speaker 1: When did Joel McCullough kind of enter the chat for you? 95 00:06:23,472 --> 00:06:27,952 Speaker 1: At what point did you realize that? you know, there'd 96 00:06:27,982 --> 00:06:31,462 Speaker 1: been talk of infiltrators, there'd been talk of police infiltrators, 97 00:06:31,562 --> 00:06:35,002 Speaker 1: FBI infiltrators, all kinds of stuff. When was it clear 98 00:06:35,122 --> 00:06:37,142 Speaker 1: that the pipeline company was actually. 99 00:06:36,902 --> 00:06:40,972 Speaker 2: Paying for infiltrators in the camps too? Yeah, I think 100 00:06:40,992 --> 00:06:46,452 Speaker 2: that there was indications in those early documents that someone 101 00:06:46,492 --> 00:06:48,672 Speaker 2: had been on the ground. I think we kind of 102 00:06:49,112 --> 00:06:51,842 Speaker 2: could get a sense of that through the documents. I 103 00:06:52,382 --> 00:06:55,122 Speaker 2: I can't share all the details of my reporting. 104 00:06:55,582 --> 00:06:55,722 Speaker 1: Yeah. 105 00:06:56,022 --> 00:06:59,481 Speaker 2: But I can say that the name Joel McCullough, you know, 106 00:06:59,702 --> 00:07:03,302 Speaker 2: came up before long. And I'd say that's a relative 107 00:07:03,322 --> 00:07:05,362 Speaker 2: statement because I've been covering this stuff for 10 years now. 108 00:07:05,922 --> 00:07:06,302 Speaker 1: Yeah. 109 00:07:06,542 --> 00:07:09,282 Speaker 2: But one thing I can say is that it's a 110 00:07:09,342 --> 00:07:12,672 Speaker 2: name that also that came up from people who were 111 00:07:12,942 --> 00:07:16,292 Speaker 2: on the ground and part of the movement. They knew 112 00:07:16,332 --> 00:07:22,482 Speaker 2: this guy as Joel Edwards. And There was someone who, again, 113 00:07:22,522 --> 00:07:25,062 Speaker 2: was a part of this movement. They were actually kind 114 00:07:25,562 --> 00:07:28,372 Speaker 2: of an activist in Iowa, and they got a tip 115 00:07:28,502 --> 00:07:31,092 Speaker 2: that Joel Edwards, this guy that had been hanging out 116 00:07:31,132 --> 00:07:34,582 Speaker 2: with them, you know, who they considered to be part 117 00:07:34,612 --> 00:07:36,732 Speaker 2: of the cause. He had this dog he would bring 118 00:07:36,792 --> 00:07:37,892 Speaker 2: around that people liked. 119 00:07:38,212 --> 00:07:40,292 Speaker 1: Oh, man, that's so clever. Yeah. 120 00:07:40,452 --> 00:07:44,682 Speaker 2: Yeah. So this this this water protector, this activist got 121 00:07:44,712 --> 00:07:48,162 Speaker 2: a tip that Joel Edward wasn't who he said he 122 00:07:48,222 --> 00:07:51,562 Speaker 2: was and that he was actually an infiltrator. And, you know, 123 00:07:51,682 --> 00:07:54,082 Speaker 2: I got to be real. When I started publishing, when 124 00:07:54,122 --> 00:07:57,072 Speaker 2: we started publishing these Tiger Swan documents, We made a 125 00:07:57,132 --> 00:07:59,812 Speaker 2: lot of phone calls. We called everybody who was named 126 00:07:59,882 --> 00:08:02,802 Speaker 2: in the files because we wanted to publish them, but 127 00:08:02,842 --> 00:08:05,102 Speaker 2: we wanted to make sure that that was a safe 128 00:08:05,122 --> 00:08:08,502 Speaker 2: thing to do and that we understood how much of 129 00:08:08,542 --> 00:08:11,612 Speaker 2: this was bullshit and how much of it was describing 130 00:08:11,632 --> 00:08:13,812 Speaker 2: things that actually happened. So I talked to a lot 131 00:08:13,832 --> 00:08:20,372 Speaker 2: of people and paranoia about infiltration was really strong. I 132 00:08:20,412 --> 00:08:23,252 Speaker 2: heard from so many people oh, you should look into 133 00:08:23,292 --> 00:08:26,292 Speaker 2: this guy because we think he's an infiltrator. Like this 134 00:08:26,332 --> 00:08:30,122 Speaker 2: guy is the real infiltrator. And in the vast majority 135 00:08:30,142 --> 00:08:34,761 Speaker 2: of those cases, I had zero indication that the person 136 00:08:34,822 --> 00:08:39,202 Speaker 2: actually was like working for TigerSwan or the FBI or 137 00:08:39,261 --> 00:08:39,822 Speaker 2: anyone else. 138 00:08:40,582 --> 00:08:43,722 Speaker 1: And in fact, we see in these WhatsApp chats between 139 00:08:44,041 --> 00:08:47,502 Speaker 1: Rob and Joel that like, that Joel's like, oh, well, 140 00:08:47,521 --> 00:08:50,592 Speaker 1: we can accuse this person of being an infiltrator. 141 00:08:50,801 --> 00:08:51,301 Speaker 2: Yeah. 142 00:08:51,391 --> 00:08:51,531 Speaker 1: Yeah. 143 00:08:51,551 --> 00:08:54,932 Speaker 2: And those documents, they say that just the act of 144 00:08:55,372 --> 00:09:00,151 Speaker 2: proposing that someone share information in exchange for money, even 145 00:09:00,192 --> 00:09:04,372 Speaker 2: if they said no, it would create suspicion. And, you know, 146 00:09:04,431 --> 00:09:07,312 Speaker 2: it sounded like that was something that was good for them. 147 00:09:08,372 --> 00:09:10,981 Speaker 2: And yeah, I mean, this is an old thing. Like, 148 00:09:11,352 --> 00:09:14,211 Speaker 2: It even has a name called snitch jacketing. And I 149 00:09:15,141 --> 00:09:18,342 Speaker 2: guess the classic kind of form of that would be 150 00:09:18,881 --> 00:09:25,301 Speaker 2: the FBI kind of surreptitiously labeling someone as an informant 151 00:09:25,401 --> 00:09:30,531 Speaker 2: or a snitch in order to create divides and dissension 152 00:09:30,811 --> 00:09:34,682 Speaker 2: among a group. And it can be really, really dangerous. So, 153 00:09:34,761 --> 00:09:36,591 Speaker 2: you know, like in that kind of classic case, it 154 00:09:36,612 --> 00:09:40,832 Speaker 2: would maybe be like the actual snitch, the actual infiltrator, 155 00:09:41,271 --> 00:09:45,671 Speaker 2: undercover agent planting that idea. And it creates all this 156 00:09:45,732 --> 00:09:49,552 Speaker 2: drama and maybe takes out someone who was playing an 157 00:09:49,602 --> 00:09:52,821 Speaker 2: important role in the movement. You know, I think the 158 00:09:52,881 --> 00:09:55,622 Speaker 2: one thing that was absolutely true at Standing Rock is 159 00:09:55,661 --> 00:09:57,982 Speaker 2: that these kinds of movements, it's like a pressure cooker. 160 00:09:58,122 --> 00:10:01,981 Speaker 2: You know, people are just under such extreme pressure from 161 00:10:02,041 --> 00:10:04,802 Speaker 2: police and private security. You know, a lot of people 162 00:10:04,862 --> 00:10:07,692 Speaker 2: there really saw this as an existential fight. You know, 163 00:10:07,732 --> 00:10:12,412 Speaker 2: they viewed the, I mean, the... the safety of the 164 00:10:12,482 --> 00:10:16,602 Speaker 2: water was at risk. People really believed that this pipeline 165 00:10:16,641 --> 00:10:19,821 Speaker 2: would mean that the Missouri River would end up contaminated. 166 00:10:20,281 --> 00:10:22,322 Speaker 2: A lot of people were also thinking about the climate 167 00:10:22,362 --> 00:10:25,242 Speaker 2: crisis and the reality that if we continue to burn 168 00:10:25,322 --> 00:10:28,781 Speaker 2: fossil fuels the way that we are, we're barreling toward, 169 00:10:28,942 --> 00:10:30,771 Speaker 2: I mean, we're We're already in the middle of a 170 00:10:30,781 --> 00:10:32,712 Speaker 2: pretty severe crisis. I think we can all agree that 171 00:10:32,771 --> 00:10:35,832 Speaker 2: it's just bound to get worse. So the stakes felt 172 00:10:35,891 --> 00:10:37,711 Speaker 2: very high to a lot of people on the ground 173 00:10:37,872 --> 00:10:40,572 Speaker 2: and they were under extreme pressure. Even if you're not 174 00:10:40,631 --> 00:10:44,372 Speaker 2: under extreme pressure, if you're camping in a field with 175 00:10:44,592 --> 00:10:48,372 Speaker 2: hundreds of people that you don't know, or even your family, 176 00:10:48,771 --> 00:10:51,972 Speaker 2: you know, conflict is going to come up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 177 00:10:52,372 --> 00:10:55,212 Speaker 1: Plus people are like putting their lives on hold for 178 00:10:55,832 --> 00:10:59,862 Speaker 1: an indefinite amount of time. Yeah. Money's tight. Like, I mean, 179 00:10:59,881 --> 00:11:02,212 Speaker 1: that's stressful. Yeah. 180 00:11:02,502 --> 00:11:06,131 Speaker 2: Yeah, they're getting shot with tear gas and rubber bullets. 181 00:11:06,332 --> 00:11:09,971 Speaker 2: There's planes flying over all the time. It was very, 182 00:11:10,011 --> 00:11:14,092 Speaker 2: very intense. And so, you know, if you add into 183 00:11:14,131 --> 00:11:19,602 Speaker 2: the mix people who are actively trying to poke at divisions, 184 00:11:21,181 --> 00:11:24,661 Speaker 2: it's bad, you know? And so I think there's this 185 00:11:24,842 --> 00:11:28,331 Speaker 2: fear that, The infiltrator is like the boogeyman in a 186 00:11:29,171 --> 00:11:33,462 Speaker 2: lot of movement spaces because it really kind of attacks. 187 00:11:33,561 --> 00:11:38,702 Speaker 2: I think this and this propaganda we found through these documents, 188 00:11:38,842 --> 00:11:41,641 Speaker 2: you know, it seems kind of like mundane. It's like, OK, whatever. 189 00:11:41,661 --> 00:11:45,641 Speaker 2: It's some bullshit on Facebook. But it was really designed 190 00:11:45,732 --> 00:11:50,471 Speaker 2: with an eye for identifying pre-existing divisions, both within the 191 00:11:50,511 --> 00:11:54,451 Speaker 2: movement and between the movement and the communities that lived nearby, 192 00:11:54,572 --> 00:11:57,372 Speaker 2: which were mostly like white rural communities. 193 00:11:57,771 --> 00:11:58,612 Speaker 1: Yeah. 194 00:11:59,192 --> 00:12:03,031 Speaker 2: They were identifying these divisions and trying to create content 195 00:12:03,112 --> 00:12:08,592 Speaker 2: that would make them worse or deepen people's like distrust, 196 00:12:08,631 --> 00:12:10,372 Speaker 2: divisive feelings, I guess. 197 00:12:10,671 --> 00:12:24,391 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. the way that you've covered this movement is 198 00:12:24,431 --> 00:12:28,421 Speaker 1: pretty unique to the way that movements and protests get 199 00:12:28,462 --> 00:12:31,381 Speaker 1: covered in the U.S. Something might get covered when there's 200 00:12:31,401 --> 00:12:36,141 Speaker 1: the initial protest, but you've been, you know, continuously reporting 201 00:12:36,202 --> 00:12:39,801 Speaker 1: on this for a decade. What do you think that 202 00:12:40,122 --> 00:12:44,631 Speaker 1: does to, I don't know, sharpen your understanding of that movement, 203 00:12:44,671 --> 00:12:48,031 Speaker 1: but also like how movements work in general? 204 00:12:48,192 --> 00:12:53,002 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, it's a little bit crazy making because 205 00:12:53,102 --> 00:12:58,122 Speaker 2: it's not I think that the way that mainstream media 206 00:12:58,181 --> 00:13:01,122 Speaker 2: works is that you're supposed to be covering the like 207 00:13:01,352 --> 00:13:05,672 Speaker 2: crisis of the moment like the specific action that's happening 208 00:13:05,771 --> 00:13:09,571 Speaker 2: at this exact second it's like a very compressed time 209 00:13:09,631 --> 00:13:13,951 Speaker 2: frame So sometimes I get these like guilt complexes and like, oh, like, 210 00:13:14,011 --> 00:13:16,031 Speaker 2: what am I doing? Like, how can I still be 211 00:13:16,232 --> 00:13:18,792 Speaker 2: looking at this? But, you know, I do think I 212 00:13:18,862 --> 00:13:24,522 Speaker 2: think what's distinct about this this movement and and the 213 00:13:24,561 --> 00:13:27,002 Speaker 2: way that I've been able to approach it is that 214 00:13:27,301 --> 00:13:32,171 Speaker 2: the documentation of what the this private security company was 215 00:13:32,252 --> 00:13:34,992 Speaker 2: doing and how they were working with police also. Yeah. 216 00:13:36,002 --> 00:13:41,902 Speaker 2: Is really uniquely extensive. So, you know, while I was 217 00:13:41,942 --> 00:13:46,621 Speaker 2: at the Intercept, basically the private security company got sued by, or, 218 00:13:46,622 --> 00:13:50,181 Speaker 2: you know, there was legal action taken against the private 219 00:13:50,212 --> 00:13:52,671 Speaker 2: security company because they never got a security license in 220 00:13:52,692 --> 00:13:55,911 Speaker 2: the state. So the security board, the local security board 221 00:13:55,952 --> 00:14:00,531 Speaker 2: went after them. TigerSwan kept claiming that they weren't actually 222 00:14:00,551 --> 00:14:06,002 Speaker 2: a security company, which is wild. And... To prove that 223 00:14:06,021 --> 00:14:09,852 Speaker 2: they were a security company, the security board requested all 224 00:14:09,891 --> 00:14:13,112 Speaker 2: of these, all this discovery material. So that's like in court, 225 00:14:13,492 --> 00:14:15,571 Speaker 2: you want to prove something, you can ask the other 226 00:14:15,612 --> 00:14:20,332 Speaker 2: party to turn over internal documents and communications and things. 227 00:14:20,352 --> 00:14:24,302 Speaker 2: So TigerSwan did that. And, you know, I was reporting 228 00:14:24,342 --> 00:14:25,942 Speaker 2: on this at the time and I noticed, I got 229 00:14:25,982 --> 00:14:28,972 Speaker 2: a tip about it. And it turned out the stuff 230 00:14:29,012 --> 00:14:33,852 Speaker 2: had become public record. So, you know, the Intercept fought 231 00:14:34,112 --> 00:14:37,042 Speaker 2: for actual energy transfer, really didn't want this stuff to 232 00:14:37,082 --> 00:14:40,182 Speaker 2: be released. The Intercept fought all the way to the 233 00:14:40,222 --> 00:14:44,341 Speaker 2: North Dakota Supreme Court and some around 60,000 pages of 234 00:14:44,402 --> 00:14:47,872 Speaker 2: internal records of the security company were ultimately released. And 235 00:14:48,452 --> 00:14:52,311 Speaker 2: so I think, you know, if we had that kind 236 00:14:52,352 --> 00:14:55,792 Speaker 2: of look into all kinds of movements around the world, 237 00:14:56,512 --> 00:14:59,972 Speaker 2: I actually think maybe we would see similar patterns. You know, 238 00:14:59,992 --> 00:15:05,142 Speaker 2: I think the importance of this coverage is absolutely, to 239 00:15:05,181 --> 00:15:09,882 Speaker 2: some degree, unique to that movement. This was the, I 240 00:15:09,922 --> 00:15:13,962 Speaker 2: would say, kind of the biggest Indigenous uprising in the U.S. 241 00:15:14,482 --> 00:15:19,252 Speaker 2: since the Wounded Knee Occupation in the 1970s. It was 242 00:15:19,272 --> 00:15:24,802 Speaker 2: a big international deal. Like, well over a hundred tribes 243 00:15:24,962 --> 00:15:27,762 Speaker 2: were coming together, tribal nations were coming together in this 244 00:15:27,842 --> 00:15:31,342 Speaker 2: place and fighting for a cause in a way that 245 00:15:31,442 --> 00:15:34,982 Speaker 2: we just haven't seen very much. So it is crucial 246 00:15:35,282 --> 00:15:39,822 Speaker 2: to document this specific case, but also the depth of 247 00:15:39,922 --> 00:15:43,102 Speaker 2: information that we have about the strategies that were being 248 00:15:43,302 --> 00:15:47,522 Speaker 2: used illustrate how this stuff works around the world. So 249 00:15:47,542 --> 00:15:50,231 Speaker 2: I actually think You know, I've done all this. I 250 00:15:50,332 --> 00:15:53,292 Speaker 2: did a piece about Joel McCullough. I want to say 251 00:15:53,552 --> 00:15:56,052 Speaker 2: it was 2018 or 2019 for The Intercept that got 252 00:15:56,092 --> 00:15:59,441 Speaker 2: into what he was doing in terms of infiltration. But like, 253 00:15:59,842 --> 00:16:02,322 Speaker 2: I think infiltration is kind of the boogeyman. But actually, 254 00:16:02,342 --> 00:16:06,721 Speaker 2: this propaganda stuff is really, really important, too. And I 255 00:16:06,802 --> 00:16:08,802 Speaker 2: think which, you know, I know, Amy, you've done so 256 00:16:08,852 --> 00:16:13,232 Speaker 2: much work on propaganda of different kinds, but it really 257 00:16:13,332 --> 00:16:17,611 Speaker 2: kind of like decide the direction things take to some degree. 258 00:16:18,282 --> 00:16:22,441 Speaker 1: Yeah, totally. And the corporate surveillance thing in general, like 259 00:16:23,042 --> 00:16:26,982 Speaker 1: any industry where democracy might be a problem for them 260 00:16:27,282 --> 00:16:31,092 Speaker 1: at some point has to like have these tools at 261 00:16:31,112 --> 00:16:35,712 Speaker 1: their disposal to deal with protest or with I mean, 262 00:16:35,732 --> 00:16:39,232 Speaker 1: I imagine I shudder to think what the companies are 263 00:16:39,252 --> 00:16:39,972 Speaker 1: doing right now. 264 00:16:39,992 --> 00:16:43,092 Speaker 2: Oh, my God. I know. Yeah. I so wonder. I mean, 265 00:16:43,112 --> 00:16:46,062 Speaker 2: I think there's probably a lot of stories there. The 266 00:16:46,102 --> 00:16:49,762 Speaker 2: fossil fuel industry has spent a very long time convincing 267 00:16:49,872 --> 00:16:53,772 Speaker 2: local communities and the public at large that what they're 268 00:16:53,792 --> 00:16:58,672 Speaker 2: doing is great and fine. Data centers, that hearts and 269 00:16:58,712 --> 00:17:02,632 Speaker 2: minds effort has not been won so far. And, you know, 270 00:17:03,012 --> 00:17:06,112 Speaker 2: it's interesting because a lot of the people who were, 271 00:17:06,132 --> 00:17:09,742 Speaker 2: you know, water protectors from, you know, tribal nations in 272 00:17:09,752 --> 00:17:14,302 Speaker 2: the Dakotas have now shifted their attention to fighting data centers. 273 00:17:16,121 --> 00:17:18,632 Speaker 2: I felt like almost every conversation I had with people 274 00:17:18,692 --> 00:17:22,592 Speaker 2: about this propaganda stuff, data centers or AI would ultimately 275 00:17:22,632 --> 00:17:25,272 Speaker 2: come up, whether it was like, oh, well, I wonder 276 00:17:25,292 --> 00:17:27,912 Speaker 2: what's going to happen now that AI is the thing, 277 00:17:27,992 --> 00:17:31,151 Speaker 2: like that's going to supercharge propaganda. And there's, you know, 278 00:17:32,212 --> 00:17:36,981 Speaker 2: speaking of Facebook, I follow some Facebook pages in Bismarck 279 00:17:37,022 --> 00:17:40,022 Speaker 2: and Mandan, which are, you know, these twin cities that, 280 00:17:40,182 --> 00:17:43,331 Speaker 2: very small cities that are pretty close to the Standing 281 00:17:43,371 --> 00:17:46,971 Speaker 2: Rock Reservation. And even there, you know, local people who 282 00:17:47,052 --> 00:17:51,232 Speaker 2: probably hated these protests, they were part of probably like 283 00:17:51,272 --> 00:17:55,411 Speaker 2: among the targets of this propaganda we're talking about, are 284 00:17:55,452 --> 00:17:59,082 Speaker 2: kind of up in arms because there's a data center, 285 00:17:59,341 --> 00:18:03,381 Speaker 2: according to Facebook, I don't know, that is being proposed 286 00:18:03,502 --> 00:18:07,592 Speaker 2: in that area. Yeah. It's interesting. I feel like all 287 00:18:07,632 --> 00:18:12,431 Speaker 2: these places are now kind of grappling with infrastructure that 288 00:18:12,772 --> 00:18:16,582 Speaker 2: they don't want, that they don't necessarily want. And so 289 00:18:16,642 --> 00:18:18,302 Speaker 2: what's going to happen? I don't you know, I don't 290 00:18:18,321 --> 00:18:19,081 Speaker 2: know what's going to happen. 291 00:18:19,382 --> 00:18:23,162 Speaker 1: The carbon capture stuff, too, like literally the same community 292 00:18:23,552 --> 00:18:28,792 Speaker 1: in North Dakota and Iowa. Um, okay. I also think 293 00:18:28,851 --> 00:18:32,881 Speaker 1: it's like an emblematic story because of the timing of it. 294 00:18:32,922 --> 00:18:35,682 Speaker 1: And the fact that this is all kicking off, like 295 00:18:35,861 --> 00:18:40,022 Speaker 1: before video content was really the thing that it is today. 296 00:18:40,821 --> 00:18:43,282 Speaker 1: Now I feel like just in 10 years, it's become 297 00:18:43,682 --> 00:18:46,351 Speaker 1: one of the main ways that people get their information. Right. 298 00:18:47,142 --> 00:18:49,571 Speaker 1: But at the time, like that was relatively new and 299 00:18:49,611 --> 00:18:52,502 Speaker 1: you have this guy coming in who you know, is 300 00:18:52,542 --> 00:18:57,942 Speaker 1: like an early pioneer of that strategy. How much do 301 00:18:57,962 --> 00:19:00,742 Speaker 1: you think that like that piece of it, the Facebook 302 00:19:00,802 --> 00:19:05,221 Speaker 1: Live and the video content, all of that, like helped 303 00:19:05,341 --> 00:19:08,962 Speaker 1: to make their efforts more successful? 304 00:19:09,662 --> 00:19:11,822 Speaker 2: I think when I think about like the moment that 305 00:19:11,861 --> 00:19:15,641 Speaker 2: this was all happening in, I mean, I would say probably, 306 00:19:16,292 --> 00:19:19,912 Speaker 2: Facebook propaganda was already I mean, definitely there was already 307 00:19:19,952 --> 00:19:24,532 Speaker 2: like Facebook propaganda stuff happening. But these pages were launched 308 00:19:24,672 --> 00:19:28,782 Speaker 2: in 2016 and 2017. 2016 is the exact same time 309 00:19:28,892 --> 00:19:31,242 Speaker 2: as Trump's first presidential campaign. 310 00:19:31,561 --> 00:19:32,282 Speaker 1: Yeah. 311 00:19:32,662 --> 00:19:36,861 Speaker 2: So I think before 2016, a lot was happening. But 312 00:19:36,902 --> 00:19:40,741 Speaker 2: that was the year everything really got supercharged. Yeah. You know, 313 00:19:40,762 --> 00:19:44,282 Speaker 2: like you said, Facebook Live also became like widely available 314 00:19:44,341 --> 00:19:49,212 Speaker 2: that year. And I think people just weren't, you know, 315 00:19:49,311 --> 00:19:52,232 Speaker 2: I was kind of doing some research about misinformation and 316 00:19:52,272 --> 00:19:55,352 Speaker 2: things and probably the kinds of stuff that you've probably 317 00:19:55,371 --> 00:19:57,672 Speaker 2: been looking at for years. But it's like, oh, this 318 00:19:58,111 --> 00:20:02,362 Speaker 2: whole line of study really opened up in 2016, 2017. 319 00:20:02,361 --> 00:20:04,861 Speaker 2: And it's not because nothing was happening before then. It's 320 00:20:04,912 --> 00:20:09,081 Speaker 2: because so many people were surprised by this election and 321 00:20:09,121 --> 00:20:13,451 Speaker 2: by the amount of misinformation and disinformation that was circulating 322 00:20:13,571 --> 00:20:16,272 Speaker 2: at that time. Yeah. And like you're saying, the idea 323 00:20:16,331 --> 00:20:19,111 Speaker 2: of the social media influencer, it wasn't even really a 324 00:20:19,172 --> 00:20:20,711 Speaker 2: thing at that point. I don't even know if we 325 00:20:20,752 --> 00:20:23,611 Speaker 2: even said the word influencer back then. I mean, also 326 00:20:23,692 --> 00:20:27,331 Speaker 2: Standing Rock, it was a huge on the ground movement, 327 00:20:27,472 --> 00:20:29,712 Speaker 2: but it really took off because of stuff that was 328 00:20:29,752 --> 00:20:33,841 Speaker 2: circulating on social media. You know, this incident where dogs, 329 00:20:33,992 --> 00:20:34,652 Speaker 2: you know, attacked. 330 00:20:34,821 --> 00:20:39,412 Speaker 1: I was like so clutch to getting people there. Yeah, totally. 331 00:20:39,432 --> 00:20:42,851 Speaker 2: Yeah, it totally changed everything. And so many people were 332 00:20:42,912 --> 00:20:47,611 Speaker 2: on the ground, like live streaming and posting videos that 333 00:20:47,912 --> 00:20:50,811 Speaker 2: there was even this term like keyboard warriors. Like I 334 00:20:51,212 --> 00:20:53,232 Speaker 2: a lot of people were not even on the ground, 335 00:20:53,272 --> 00:20:56,282 Speaker 2: but were really active on in like reposting things all 336 00:20:56,321 --> 00:21:00,421 Speaker 2: the time. So, you know, some of that some of 337 00:21:00,462 --> 00:21:04,962 Speaker 2: Tiger Swan's actions, you know, they they saw very clearly 338 00:21:05,022 --> 00:21:08,192 Speaker 2: in part because they had this like counterinsurgency thing. background 339 00:21:08,331 --> 00:21:12,052 Speaker 2: that this was something that they needed to counteract. And yeah, 340 00:21:12,071 --> 00:21:20,362 Speaker 2: I think the fact of Trump too, beyond, I've, I 341 00:21:20,452 --> 00:21:23,672 Speaker 2: spoke to a fair amount of local people in, you know, 342 00:21:23,821 --> 00:21:27,942 Speaker 2: in both Bismarck, Mandan, Morton County, which are North Dakota and, 343 00:21:28,121 --> 00:21:30,321 Speaker 2: and folks in Iowa, because there was some of this 344 00:21:30,341 --> 00:21:34,421 Speaker 2: propaganda was aimed at the anti-pipeline movement in Iowa and 345 00:21:34,742 --> 00:21:39,471 Speaker 2: people like on their own say, well, you know, this 346 00:21:39,552 --> 00:21:43,642 Speaker 2: was 2016, 2017. So it was the moment of make 347 00:21:43,682 --> 00:21:48,841 Speaker 2: America great again. People were feeling sort of really empowered 348 00:21:48,942 --> 00:21:54,022 Speaker 2: around the ideas that Donald Trump was spreading. He had 349 00:21:54,061 --> 00:21:58,191 Speaker 2: investments in Phillips 66, which was a backer of the 350 00:21:58,232 --> 00:22:02,131 Speaker 2: pipeline and has gotten a lot of support from the 351 00:22:02,152 --> 00:22:07,202 Speaker 2: pipeline company's founder, Kelsey Warren, over time. That, like, American 352 00:22:07,272 --> 00:22:10,412 Speaker 2: energy kind of vibe was very like strong in the air. 353 00:22:10,552 --> 00:22:15,492 Speaker 2: And people, I think, were excited to feel like felt 354 00:22:15,532 --> 00:22:21,192 Speaker 2: empowered to push back on these protests and get kind 355 00:22:21,212 --> 00:22:23,752 Speaker 2: of like active online in a way that maybe they 356 00:22:23,772 --> 00:22:25,572 Speaker 2: wouldn't have been a year before. 357 00:22:26,132 --> 00:22:30,542 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. Can you talk a little bit about how 358 00:22:30,642 --> 00:22:34,861 Speaker 1: the sort of the backlash to Standing Rock connects to 359 00:22:36,162 --> 00:22:38,982 Speaker 1: like all the anti-protest stuff since then? 360 00:22:39,262 --> 00:22:43,042 Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't think people really had this idea in 361 00:22:43,302 --> 00:22:47,861 Speaker 2: their head that like protests were a bad thing before 2016. 362 00:22:47,841 --> 00:22:51,052 Speaker 2: Or like maybe there was a little bit of that, 363 00:22:51,162 --> 00:22:54,351 Speaker 2: but not, I don't think to the degree that it 364 00:22:54,472 --> 00:22:55,012 Speaker 2: is now. 365 00:22:55,032 --> 00:22:59,232 Speaker 1: I think a lot of people, I guess maybe not boomers, 366 00:22:59,331 --> 00:23:03,171 Speaker 1: but a lot of people like Gen X, millennial and younger, 367 00:23:04,252 --> 00:23:10,512 Speaker 1: saw protest in sort of this idealized 1960s social justice 368 00:23:10,571 --> 00:23:16,232 Speaker 1: kind of way and not as like disruptive or whatever 369 00:23:16,252 --> 00:23:19,082 Speaker 1: all of these things that we now hear about protest 370 00:23:19,101 --> 00:23:21,432 Speaker 1: being I do feel like it's been very successful this 371 00:23:21,492 --> 00:23:26,242 Speaker 1: framing of like they're radicals they're interrupting our lives it's 372 00:23:26,302 --> 00:23:30,661 Speaker 1: disruptive why can't they just do it politely and quietly 373 00:23:30,682 --> 00:23:35,682 Speaker 1: these all seem like things that really ramped up from 374 00:23:35,782 --> 00:23:37,022 Speaker 1: Standing Rock to now. 375 00:23:38,081 --> 00:23:41,651 Speaker 2: Yeah. And I think, you know, I've heard that if 376 00:23:41,672 --> 00:23:44,052 Speaker 2: you look back to the 60s, there was a lot 377 00:23:44,091 --> 00:23:47,532 Speaker 2: of like kind of anti-protest sentiment then too. So I 378 00:23:47,552 --> 00:23:50,252 Speaker 2: think on the one hand, it's like at any moment, 379 00:23:50,331 --> 00:23:53,091 Speaker 2: this Standing Rock kind of opened a period where we 380 00:23:53,172 --> 00:23:56,052 Speaker 2: saw a lot of like mass protests. You know, some 381 00:23:56,071 --> 00:23:58,892 Speaker 2: of that had begun before that. Some of them, some 382 00:23:58,912 --> 00:24:02,912 Speaker 2: of these protests being like actively disruptive. But also, I think, 383 00:24:03,132 --> 00:24:05,052 Speaker 2: you know, the one of the biggest things I took 384 00:24:05,132 --> 00:24:08,532 Speaker 2: out of this reporting on the Facebook propaganda is because, 385 00:24:08,692 --> 00:24:10,432 Speaker 2: you know, I kind of grappled a lot with like 386 00:24:10,871 --> 00:24:14,061 Speaker 2: these people already had negative feelings. So like what how 387 00:24:14,302 --> 00:24:17,921 Speaker 2: how much can we really credit to some stuff on Facebook? And, 388 00:24:17,942 --> 00:24:20,462 Speaker 2: you know, I can't quantify that even, you know, after 389 00:24:20,482 --> 00:24:22,921 Speaker 2: doing a bunch of reporting. But, you know, talking to 390 00:24:23,012 --> 00:24:28,302 Speaker 2: experts about it, it's like you don't. Successful propaganda is 391 00:24:28,522 --> 00:24:32,012 Speaker 2: not going to create issues out of thin air. It's 392 00:24:32,032 --> 00:24:35,552 Speaker 2: going to take something that people are already afraid of 393 00:24:35,611 --> 00:24:40,351 Speaker 2: and uncertain about, and it's going to kind of feed that, 394 00:24:40,752 --> 00:24:43,612 Speaker 2: feed those fears and make them worse. And so, again... 395 00:24:44,882 --> 00:24:47,571 Speaker 2: We've had this period where there's been a lot of protest. 396 00:24:47,672 --> 00:24:51,571 Speaker 2: And also we've had people like really kind of stoking 397 00:24:51,611 --> 00:24:55,402 Speaker 2: the fire of like, these are bad and disruptive riots. 398 00:24:55,522 --> 00:24:57,982 Speaker 2: And these are like the bad people. These are the 399 00:24:58,042 --> 00:25:01,851 Speaker 2: paid protesters. These are the criminals trying to destroy America. 400 00:25:01,871 --> 00:25:05,571 Speaker 2: So I think that messaging has been strong, especially since 401 00:25:05,611 --> 00:25:08,252 Speaker 2: Standing Rock. I think one of the most concrete things 402 00:25:08,331 --> 00:25:11,772 Speaker 2: that has happened, which Drilled has covered extensively for a 403 00:25:11,792 --> 00:25:15,952 Speaker 2: long time, is the spread of these anti-protest laws. That 404 00:25:16,121 --> 00:25:20,561 Speaker 2: really kind of kicked off right after Standing Rock. Yeah, 405 00:25:20,581 --> 00:25:23,282 Speaker 2: I can't remember where the first one was. The first 406 00:25:23,361 --> 00:25:23,821 Speaker 2: one was in. 407 00:25:24,022 --> 00:25:26,821 Speaker 1: Oklahoma and Standing Rock got cited. Yeah. 408 00:25:29,542 --> 00:25:32,862 Speaker 2: Yeah. And, you know, ALEC took it on. I have 409 00:25:32,962 --> 00:25:35,622 Speaker 2: APAC stuck in my head right now. So ALEC. 410 00:25:35,882 --> 00:25:36,322 Speaker 1: Yeah. 411 00:25:36,341 --> 00:25:36,522 Speaker 2: Yeah. 412 00:25:36,642 --> 00:25:39,581 Speaker 1: ALEC, the American Legislative Exchange Council. 413 00:25:39,642 --> 00:25:43,442 Speaker 2: Thank you. Yes. So they took it on. You know, 414 00:25:43,502 --> 00:25:47,422 Speaker 2: the laws were framed as critical infrastructure laws. They're like 415 00:25:47,462 --> 00:25:51,371 Speaker 2: protecting the infrastructure, but, you know, really kind of amping 416 00:25:51,512 --> 00:25:55,671 Speaker 2: up penalties that could be placed on people who are protesting. 417 00:25:55,692 --> 00:26:00,611 Speaker 1: Well, and they acted like as though... trespassing laws and 418 00:26:00,632 --> 00:26:04,472 Speaker 1: private property laws didn't already exist. They did. Or this 419 00:26:04,532 --> 00:26:08,842 Speaker 1: just like increased jail time and fines and, you know, 420 00:26:09,502 --> 00:26:11,341 Speaker 1: criminalized protest. Yeah. 421 00:26:11,422 --> 00:26:14,272 Speaker 2: Like the pipeline, even though, you know, people are still 422 00:26:14,292 --> 00:26:17,811 Speaker 2: fighting pipelines, but not to the degree that they were 423 00:26:17,972 --> 00:26:20,972 Speaker 2: at that time. But Pipelines are still still kind of 424 00:26:21,121 --> 00:26:24,802 Speaker 2: like come up in this narratives around, you know, mostly 425 00:26:24,841 --> 00:26:27,641 Speaker 2: right wing narratives around protest or like, you know, I 426 00:26:27,662 --> 00:26:31,542 Speaker 2: think it would be framed as riots in their speech. 427 00:26:31,742 --> 00:26:34,222 Speaker 2: But yeah, I mean, now we see we kind of 428 00:26:34,262 --> 00:26:37,982 Speaker 2: see like a lot of the versions of what we 429 00:26:38,081 --> 00:26:42,311 Speaker 2: see now on steroids were playing out on the ground 430 00:26:42,371 --> 00:26:45,172 Speaker 2: at Standing Rock. So now I mean, now we have 431 00:26:45,292 --> 00:26:49,841 Speaker 2: Trump's second term in office and. the crackdowns on the 432 00:26:49,882 --> 00:26:55,682 Speaker 2: ground are more severe. We've also got things like National 433 00:26:55,722 --> 00:27:04,532 Speaker 2: Security Presidential Memo 7, which basically encourages public security agencies 434 00:27:04,702 --> 00:27:09,452 Speaker 2: to target essentially leftist movements. This whole, I mean, Antifa 435 00:27:09,512 --> 00:27:13,361 Speaker 2: is kind of like the most clearly targeted group. group, 436 00:27:13,422 --> 00:27:15,782 Speaker 2: you can't even really call it a group, I guess, movement. 437 00:27:15,982 --> 00:27:20,802 Speaker 2: But that memo has ideas in it, like anti-Americanism. What 438 00:27:20,841 --> 00:27:26,172 Speaker 2: even is that? Like, you could call an indigenous movement 439 00:27:26,272 --> 00:27:31,312 Speaker 2: for land rights anti-American if you wanted. You know, it 440 00:27:31,732 --> 00:27:34,002 Speaker 2: kind of is a green light to just surveil and 441 00:27:34,222 --> 00:27:37,022 Speaker 2: disrupt an array of movements. 442 00:27:37,402 --> 00:27:40,421 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. Okay, I have one last question for you 443 00:27:40,462 --> 00:27:44,182 Speaker 1: and it's a very California woo-woo question. I'm not sorry. 444 00:27:44,742 --> 00:27:49,382 Speaker 1: I do feel like the rhetoric around protest has tended 445 00:27:49,442 --> 00:27:51,522 Speaker 1: to like try to push this frame of, you know, 446 00:27:51,601 --> 00:27:56,882 Speaker 1: protesters being radicals and anarchists and rioters and disruptive and 447 00:27:57,212 --> 00:28:01,112 Speaker 1: scary and all of these things. There hasn't been like 448 00:28:01,172 --> 00:28:04,871 Speaker 1: a ton to counteract that. Like I feel like the 449 00:28:05,071 --> 00:28:09,902 Speaker 1: most I see is like protesters cast as weirdos, which 450 00:28:09,942 --> 00:28:14,532 Speaker 1: like is better than criminals, I think, but still not like, 451 00:28:15,311 --> 00:28:19,231 Speaker 1: like 100% positive. So, so like, you've spent a lot 452 00:28:19,252 --> 00:28:23,912 Speaker 1: of time in protest camps and with people who are activists. 453 00:28:24,192 --> 00:28:25,812 Speaker 1: And I wonder if you could talk a little bit 454 00:28:25,851 --> 00:28:29,792 Speaker 1: about like, I don't know, like, the types of people 455 00:28:29,912 --> 00:28:32,611 Speaker 1: who do this and like a little bit about the 456 00:28:32,652 --> 00:28:35,912 Speaker 1: paid protester thing, what you think that that frame gets 457 00:28:35,972 --> 00:28:38,802 Speaker 1: wrong about like who these people are. And I understand 458 00:28:38,842 --> 00:28:42,082 Speaker 1: that like, they're very much not a monolith. Yeah. 459 00:28:42,162 --> 00:28:44,642 Speaker 2: I mean, I think the two kind of movement spaces 460 00:28:44,682 --> 00:28:47,872 Speaker 2: that come to mind are, you know, Standing Rock, both 461 00:28:47,942 --> 00:28:51,862 Speaker 2: very criminalized movement spaces, Standing Rock and, um, you know, 462 00:28:51,882 --> 00:28:55,882 Speaker 2: that anti-ice movement in Minneapolis. I'm from the Twin Cities 463 00:28:55,982 --> 00:28:58,402 Speaker 2: and I wasn't there when all this stuff went down 464 00:28:58,622 --> 00:29:00,542 Speaker 2: this past winter, but I was in touch with a 465 00:29:00,582 --> 00:29:04,342 Speaker 2: lot of people that were kind of getting involved and engaged. 466 00:29:04,462 --> 00:29:08,682 Speaker 2: And I think in both spaces, I mean, like you're saying, 467 00:29:08,702 --> 00:29:10,712 Speaker 2: I'm going to be annoying and like acknowledge that there 468 00:29:11,672 --> 00:29:15,192 Speaker 2: is like a diversity of people, especially in movements that 469 00:29:15,352 --> 00:29:19,962 Speaker 2: reach those levels. Um, You know, and there are people 470 00:29:20,022 --> 00:29:23,161 Speaker 2: in the mix who are chaotic. Like, let's not pretend 471 00:29:23,302 --> 00:29:27,242 Speaker 2: that movement spaces, like any space, doesn't attract some people 472 00:29:27,312 --> 00:29:30,032 Speaker 2: that are like there for drama and not like. 473 00:29:30,052 --> 00:29:32,532 Speaker 1: Main character energy abounds. Yes. 474 00:29:32,572 --> 00:29:36,892 Speaker 2: Yes. Yes. And like people who have issues. So those 475 00:29:36,912 --> 00:29:40,042 Speaker 2: people are there in all. Yeah. But also there are 476 00:29:40,102 --> 00:29:45,442 Speaker 2: also people who, you know, have long term... deep commitments 477 00:29:45,462 --> 00:29:50,292 Speaker 2: to organizing for a better world. I think the types 478 00:29:50,352 --> 00:29:54,622 Speaker 2: of people who really like commit to a movement long-term 479 00:29:54,642 --> 00:29:55,862 Speaker 2: and in a way where they're going to go like 480 00:29:55,902 --> 00:30:02,892 Speaker 2: camp out somewhere are like idealists in a way. Idealists, 481 00:30:03,032 --> 00:30:08,122 Speaker 2: you know, they like can imagine a world that is 482 00:30:08,262 --> 00:30:14,411 Speaker 2: more fair, actively thinking about what a more just world 483 00:30:14,472 --> 00:30:17,582 Speaker 2: would look like and what steps would need to be 484 00:30:17,622 --> 00:30:21,971 Speaker 2: taken to build that world. And you know, a lot 485 00:30:21,992 --> 00:30:24,812 Speaker 2: of times these are people with serious integrity. They're like, okay, 486 00:30:24,872 --> 00:30:27,112 Speaker 2: if that's what we have to do, if that's what 487 00:30:27,472 --> 00:30:31,772 Speaker 2: this takes, you know, if we need to stop construction 488 00:30:31,792 --> 00:30:34,862 Speaker 2: of fossil fuel infrastructure, then we should like actually try 489 00:30:34,902 --> 00:30:37,502 Speaker 2: to do that. You know, that's, so these are people 490 00:30:37,522 --> 00:30:41,042 Speaker 2: who are like really acting on things that they believe in. 491 00:30:41,062 --> 00:30:43,042 Speaker 2: And I mean, those are the more committed people. That's 492 00:30:43,102 --> 00:30:46,602 Speaker 2: actually like a smaller group in a movement space. There 493 00:30:46,642 --> 00:30:49,202 Speaker 2: are also in both this space, again, and I'm thinking 494 00:30:49,222 --> 00:30:52,992 Speaker 2: of Minneapolis, a lot of people who see something terrible 495 00:30:53,052 --> 00:30:56,752 Speaker 2: happening and are like, I can't, like, that is like 496 00:30:56,892 --> 00:31:01,382 Speaker 2: morally not okay. And I need to like get involved 497 00:31:01,422 --> 00:31:05,322 Speaker 2: in and help out. So Standing Rock, all kinds of 498 00:31:05,422 --> 00:31:08,342 Speaker 2: ordinary people showed up who are just like, we'd never 499 00:31:08,382 --> 00:31:11,752 Speaker 2: been involved in any kind of movement space and are like, whoa, 500 00:31:11,852 --> 00:31:14,352 Speaker 2: what is going on here? I need, this is like, 501 00:31:15,072 --> 00:31:17,951 Speaker 2: you felt moved by this, whether it was, you know, the, 502 00:31:18,232 --> 00:31:21,971 Speaker 2: the police or private security violence that they saw, or just, 503 00:31:22,172 --> 00:31:27,181 Speaker 2: you know, the, this idea of an indigenous nation standing 504 00:31:27,242 --> 00:31:30,382 Speaker 2: up for its water. They're like, that is something that 505 00:31:30,442 --> 00:31:33,042 Speaker 2: is like really important. And I, I want to show 506 00:31:33,122 --> 00:31:36,661 Speaker 2: up and I want to support them, you know? In Minneapolis, too, 507 00:31:36,852 --> 00:31:39,732 Speaker 2: people saw their neighbors being dragged away. You know, I 508 00:31:39,792 --> 00:31:42,492 Speaker 2: can think of several people in my personal life who 509 00:31:42,792 --> 00:31:45,911 Speaker 2: I would never imagine getting involved in any kind of 510 00:31:46,012 --> 00:31:52,911 Speaker 2: movement suddenly found themselves organizing against ICE because they saw 511 00:31:53,392 --> 00:31:56,062 Speaker 2: people that they knew or people that lived in their 512 00:31:56,102 --> 00:32:01,162 Speaker 2: neighborhood being abused and, you know, in some cases, like, murdered. 513 00:32:01,972 --> 00:32:04,712 Speaker 2: So they said, I need to show up. I need 514 00:32:04,732 --> 00:32:07,142 Speaker 2: to like protest. I need to like be a part 515 00:32:07,162 --> 00:32:09,542 Speaker 2: of these watches that are making sure that people aren't 516 00:32:09,562 --> 00:32:14,822 Speaker 2: getting hurt. These are regular people, like just seriously, like 517 00:32:14,962 --> 00:32:18,332 Speaker 2: very regular people. I'm honestly shocked that some of these 518 00:32:18,372 --> 00:32:21,792 Speaker 2: people like did some of the things that they did. So, 519 00:32:22,032 --> 00:32:24,612 Speaker 2: you know, and like we're living in a world of extremes. 520 00:32:24,712 --> 00:32:27,412 Speaker 2: We're going to keep seeing that. And if we're painting 521 00:32:27,672 --> 00:32:31,822 Speaker 2: anyone who gets involved in a movement, that's responding to 522 00:32:31,862 --> 00:32:36,201 Speaker 2: the extreme circumstances that we're living through, if anyone who 523 00:32:36,222 --> 00:32:38,302 Speaker 2: gets involved is going to be painted as a criminal, 524 00:32:38,682 --> 00:32:42,322 Speaker 2: then that's like a serious... It's a serious threat to 525 00:32:42,442 --> 00:32:46,201 Speaker 2: democracy on a pretty basic level. You know, on the 526 00:32:46,262 --> 00:32:50,652 Speaker 2: other hand, if we're talking about threats to democracy, like, 527 00:32:51,352 --> 00:32:55,512 Speaker 2: there is no... This project actually made me... I'm going 528 00:32:55,552 --> 00:32:58,912 Speaker 2: off on a tangent now. Here we go. This... project 529 00:32:59,012 --> 00:33:02,382 Speaker 2: actually made me think a lot about journalism. You know, 530 00:33:02,862 --> 00:33:04,622 Speaker 2: I do a lot of work for Drilled, but I'm 531 00:33:04,642 --> 00:33:06,822 Speaker 2: also a freelancer. So I do a lot of organizing 532 00:33:06,862 --> 00:33:10,642 Speaker 2: with the Freelance Solidarity Project, which is a union for freelancers. 533 00:33:10,762 --> 00:33:13,462 Speaker 2: And we think a lot about kind of the collapse 534 00:33:13,522 --> 00:33:16,062 Speaker 2: of the media industry. And, you know, some of that 535 00:33:16,202 --> 00:33:19,852 Speaker 2: is kind of like at the hands of people who 536 00:33:20,672 --> 00:33:23,292 Speaker 2: actively want it to collapse. They don't want to they 537 00:33:23,332 --> 00:33:26,672 Speaker 2: don't want power to be challenged. They don't want, you 538 00:33:27,262 --> 00:33:31,362 Speaker 2: their wealth to be challenged. And so journalism is like 539 00:33:31,862 --> 00:33:34,102 Speaker 2: very much under attack. And so like if, but if 540 00:33:34,162 --> 00:33:39,512 Speaker 2: there's not journalism, there is no democracy. There just isn't. 541 00:33:39,712 --> 00:33:41,711 Speaker 2: And like, I don't know, I'm not one where I'm like, oh, 542 00:33:41,732 --> 00:33:44,572 Speaker 2: democracy is the only thing that matters. Like, but it's pretty, 543 00:33:44,912 --> 00:33:47,352 Speaker 2: it seems pretty important. It seems to be like the, 544 00:33:47,812 --> 00:33:50,652 Speaker 2: one of these foundational things that were, that America is 545 00:33:50,712 --> 00:33:55,002 Speaker 2: allegedly all about. But like this, this propaganda campaign that 546 00:33:55,042 --> 00:33:57,921 Speaker 2: I kind of like dug into just, really made me 547 00:33:57,962 --> 00:34:01,002 Speaker 2: think about the fact that if people are just getting 548 00:34:01,042 --> 00:34:05,642 Speaker 2: their information on Facebook from people that they don't even 549 00:34:05,742 --> 00:34:09,942 Speaker 2: know are actively trying to influence the way they think 550 00:34:10,072 --> 00:34:15,032 Speaker 2: for a profit, then there just isn't democracy. It's just 551 00:34:15,172 --> 00:34:17,232 Speaker 2: a propaganda war. Totally. 552 00:34:17,792 --> 00:34:21,112 Speaker 1: Totally. I was thinking about this, too, because Rob Rice, 553 00:34:21,172 --> 00:34:26,542 Speaker 1: like so many people since him, positions himself as a journalist, right? 554 00:34:26,602 --> 00:34:29,941 Speaker 1: It's so interesting to me when these propagandists actually try 555 00:34:29,982 --> 00:34:35,411 Speaker 1: to use the credibility of journalism to undermine the credibility 556 00:34:35,451 --> 00:34:39,011 Speaker 1: of journalism. And like, yeah, it's kind of working, you know, 557 00:34:39,072 --> 00:34:41,252 Speaker 1: it's blurred the lines so much. And I don't think 558 00:34:41,312 --> 00:34:45,872 Speaker 1: it's like, an accident that tech platforms built the thing 559 00:34:45,931 --> 00:34:49,542 Speaker 1: that's that's like eaten the revenue stream that kept journalism live. 560 00:34:49,562 --> 00:34:51,442 Speaker 1: You know what I mean? And like, that didn't just happen. Yeah. 561 00:34:51,951 --> 00:34:55,712 Speaker 1: Those guys freaking hate journalism. So it's like, yeah, of 562 00:34:55,772 --> 00:34:59,892 Speaker 1: course they built a parallel universe that they get to control. 563 00:34:59,911 --> 00:35:04,151 Speaker 2: Here we are. Oh, God. 564 00:35:04,892 --> 00:35:05,172 Speaker 1: Yeah. 565 00:35:05,292 --> 00:35:10,551 Speaker 2: Yeah. Cool. Cool. But yeah. No, I think... I've been 566 00:35:10,572 --> 00:35:13,551 Speaker 2: worrying that my journalism is not hopeful at all. And 567 00:35:13,572 --> 00:35:16,692 Speaker 2: so I but I do think it's like we I 568 00:35:16,732 --> 00:35:17,852 Speaker 2: don't think it's my job to be hopeful. 569 00:35:17,911 --> 00:35:20,451 Speaker 1: But but this is one of those areas where people 570 00:35:20,532 --> 00:35:22,662 Speaker 1: knowing it exists and how it works. 571 00:35:22,681 --> 00:35:23,462 Speaker 2: Yes, exactly. 572 00:35:23,482 --> 00:35:25,401 Speaker 1: That changes it. You know, I totally agree. 573 00:35:25,422 --> 00:35:30,872 Speaker 2: Yes. I think like we need to like wrap our 574 00:35:30,911 --> 00:35:33,332 Speaker 2: heads around the fact that we're being like targeted in 575 00:35:33,372 --> 00:35:37,442 Speaker 2: these ways and, um, and think about how to respond 576 00:35:37,582 --> 00:35:41,142 Speaker 2: because we got to respond. It's pretty bad. Yeah. 577 00:35:41,342 --> 00:35:43,642 Speaker 1: The thing that I worry about is like, whenever I 578 00:35:43,661 --> 00:35:46,422 Speaker 1: talk about propaganda and disinformation and stuff is that I 579 00:35:46,482 --> 00:35:49,131 Speaker 1: don't want people to take that and go and like 580 00:35:49,212 --> 00:35:52,132 Speaker 1: double down on only listening to their favorite YouTuber. Yeah. 581 00:35:53,701 --> 00:35:54,462 Speaker 2: Oh my God. Yes. 582 00:35:55,741 --> 00:35:59,702 Speaker 1: See, that's why I only trust this one guy. Yeah. 583 00:35:59,802 --> 00:36:00,042 Speaker 2: Okay. 584 00:36:00,082 --> 00:36:03,301 Speaker 1: I'll ask you in the vein of solutions, what do 585 00:36:03,362 --> 00:36:07,661 Speaker 1: you recommend people do to like check the credibility of 586 00:36:08,822 --> 00:36:13,442 Speaker 1: the news influencer they're listening to or the Facebook cat 587 00:36:13,502 --> 00:36:14,402 Speaker 1: video they're. 588 00:36:17,632 --> 00:36:20,252 Speaker 2: I mean, I think a good start is to not 589 00:36:20,292 --> 00:36:22,652 Speaker 2: get all of your information off of social media. And 590 00:36:22,692 --> 00:36:26,712 Speaker 2: I think like, yeah, even I find myself like getting 591 00:36:26,832 --> 00:36:31,562 Speaker 2: sucked into that. I think like actively like researching the 592 00:36:31,622 --> 00:36:35,322 Speaker 2: people that you're turning to for information is not a 593 00:36:35,342 --> 00:36:41,142 Speaker 2: bad idea. Like looking into I mean, I hate to 594 00:36:41,181 --> 00:36:45,261 Speaker 2: even say this because I don't actually endorse the like journalism, like, 595 00:36:45,342 --> 00:36:50,341 Speaker 2: prize-winning complex, but there's some that... If your organization has 596 00:36:50,482 --> 00:36:55,522 Speaker 2: won a journalism award from, like, a credible journalistic organization, 597 00:36:55,661 --> 00:36:58,881 Speaker 2: probably there's been some vetting there, you know? If they 598 00:36:59,082 --> 00:37:05,152 Speaker 2: say they follow Society of Professional Journalists' ethics code, then that's, like, 599 00:37:05,512 --> 00:37:11,572 Speaker 2: a good sign. You know, I think, like, indications that... Again, 600 00:37:12,052 --> 00:37:14,192 Speaker 2: it's hard to figure out credibility because everybody's trying to 601 00:37:14,232 --> 00:37:17,911 Speaker 2: pretend they are someone they're not. But starting to wrap 602 00:37:17,951 --> 00:37:24,102 Speaker 2: your head around what institutions exist that are actually made 603 00:37:24,142 --> 00:37:29,572 Speaker 2: up of journalists and how they are, you know, responding 604 00:37:29,622 --> 00:37:32,272 Speaker 2: to the place where you're getting information like that could 605 00:37:32,292 --> 00:37:35,732 Speaker 2: be a start. I do like... I think journalists mess 606 00:37:35,812 --> 00:37:38,971 Speaker 2: up all the time, and I'm very disappointed by a 607 00:37:39,032 --> 00:37:44,412 Speaker 2: lot of journalism. But it's way better than just sucking 608 00:37:44,552 --> 00:37:50,422 Speaker 2: up whatever interest groups or influencers are sending information on 609 00:37:50,462 --> 00:37:52,741 Speaker 2: social media. Because you just don't know where that's coming 610 00:37:52,782 --> 00:37:53,942 Speaker 2: from or why they're putting it out. 611 00:37:54,502 --> 00:37:59,442 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Okay, that's a good place to stop. Ooh. 612 00:37:59,502 --> 00:38:00,162 Speaker 1: Hold on. 613 00:38:00,262 --> 00:38:00,822 Speaker 2: Solutions. 614 00:38:01,312 --> 00:38:02,112 Speaker 1: Solutions. 615 00:38:02,411 --> 00:38:02,692 Speaker 2: Okay. Okay. 616 00:38:10,822 --> 00:38:15,842 Speaker 1: The Propagandist is an original drilled miniseries. It was reported, written, 617 00:38:15,902 --> 00:38:20,161 Speaker 1: and hosted by Aline Brown and produced in collaboration with 618 00:38:20,262 --> 00:38:24,842 Speaker 1: High Country News. Our editor is Audrey Quinn. Senior producer 619 00:38:24,942 --> 00:38:30,152 Speaker 1: and sound designer is Martin Zaltz-Ostwick. Our producer is Sarah Ventry. 620 00:38:30,552 --> 00:38:35,052 Speaker 1: Our audio engineer is Peter Duff. Fact-checking by Naomi Barr. 621 00:38:35,471 --> 00:38:39,451 Speaker 1: Music by Dear Lady. Matthew Fleming drew our cover art. 622 00:38:39,762 --> 00:38:43,912 Speaker 1: The Center for Media and Democracy provided support for document review. 623 00:38:44,272 --> 00:38:47,711 Speaker 1: We are proud members of ReporterShield who provided legal risk 624 00:38:47,792 --> 00:38:52,002 Speaker 1: assessment for this series. Our First Amendment attorney is James 625 00:38:52,062 --> 00:38:56,042 Speaker 1: Wheaton of the First Amendment Project. Drilled was created by me, 626 00:38:56,062 --> 00:39:01,042 Speaker 1: Amy Westerwald. the shows distributed by Pushkin Industries. Huge thanks 627 00:39:01,102 --> 00:39:04,842 Speaker 1: to the team there, including Greta Cohen, Eric Sandler, Grace Ross, 628 00:39:05,142 --> 00:39:10,612 Speaker 1: Morgan Ratner, Owen Miller, Kira Posey, Jordan McMillan, Brian Shreberneck, 629 00:39:10,842 --> 00:39:14,792 Speaker 1: and Jake Flanagan. You can find documents and related stories 630 00:39:14,852 --> 00:39:18,411 Speaker 1: to this series on our website at drilled.media, where you 631 00:39:18,451 --> 00:39:22,192 Speaker 1: can also sign up for our weekly newsletter. Thanks for listening, 632 00:39:22,292 --> 00:39:35,262 Speaker 1: and we'll see you next time. Thank you.