1 00:00:01,280 --> 00:00:04,320 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:13,880 Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Holly 3 00:00:13,960 --> 00:00:17,680 Speaker 1: Fry and I'm Tracy B. Wilson. So we have an 4 00:00:17,720 --> 00:00:21,600 Speaker 1: interview for today's show. John Perlin, author of the book 5 00:00:21,640 --> 00:00:24,119 Speaker 1: A Forest Journey The Role of Trees in the Fate 6 00:00:24,160 --> 00:00:27,800 Speaker 1: of Civilization, joined me for a chat. And when I 7 00:00:27,800 --> 00:00:30,880 Speaker 1: found out about this book, this whole thing fascinated me. 8 00:00:30,960 --> 00:00:33,560 Speaker 1: Like the second I got information about it, I was like, Yes, 9 00:00:34,120 --> 00:00:36,080 Speaker 1: I would like to talk to the person who traces 10 00:00:36,080 --> 00:00:39,280 Speaker 1: the close link between the successes and failures of human 11 00:00:39,320 --> 00:00:43,320 Speaker 1: civilization with the way they use and live with the forest. Yeah. 12 00:00:43,680 --> 00:00:48,920 Speaker 1: I am also fascinated. The conversation covers the history of 13 00:00:48,960 --> 00:00:51,680 Speaker 1: the book, which is its own story, as well as 14 00:00:51,760 --> 00:00:56,520 Speaker 1: science and history going all the way back to Gilgamesh. 15 00:00:56,680 --> 00:00:59,720 Speaker 1: I love Gilgamesh. So I'm excited to hear this because 16 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:03,120 Speaker 1: conducted this interview. So we're going to jump right into it. John, 17 00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:07,520 Speaker 1: I am so delighted and honestly excited to talk about 18 00:01:07,560 --> 00:01:11,160 Speaker 1: you in this book and trees. But I want to 19 00:01:11,200 --> 00:01:15,399 Speaker 1: talk first about your background because it's physics. Oh no, 20 00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:20,920 Speaker 1: it's actually the first iteration of a forest Journey hit 21 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:25,520 Speaker 1: the eye of a physics professor, and two years later 22 00:01:25,560 --> 00:01:29,440 Speaker 1: he won the Noball Prize, and he loved a Forest 23 00:01:29,520 --> 00:01:33,200 Speaker 1: Journey so much he asked me to join the physics department. 24 00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:38,320 Speaker 1: That's fascinating. So you started out more in environmentalism and history, 25 00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:41,480 Speaker 1: ended up in physics, and now you are talking more 26 00:01:41,520 --> 00:01:44,080 Speaker 1: about the thing that originally got you into that field. 27 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:47,600 Speaker 1: What actually got me into the field was I did 28 00:01:47,640 --> 00:01:50,760 Speaker 1: the first breakthrough book. It was a history of solar 29 00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:54,360 Speaker 1: energy called a Golden Thread twenty five hundred Years of 30 00:01:54,400 --> 00:01:58,800 Speaker 1: Solar Architecture and Technology, which recently has morphed into a 31 00:01:58,840 --> 00:02:01,600 Speaker 1: book call that it shines in the six thousand years 32 00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:05,200 Speaker 1: story of solar energy. And while I was working on 33 00:02:05,320 --> 00:02:11,160 Speaker 1: the solar history book, I discovered that every time people 34 00:02:12,040 --> 00:02:16,920 Speaker 1: built their houses to catch the sunford heat was because 35 00:02:17,240 --> 00:02:20,920 Speaker 1: they were running out of wood to houses. So I 36 00:02:21,600 --> 00:02:25,080 Speaker 1: after I finished the Golden Thread book, I asked the 37 00:02:25,160 --> 00:02:28,600 Speaker 1: question if a wood was such an important fuel, it 38 00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:31,560 Speaker 1: was like the oil of almost every society until like 39 00:02:32,320 --> 00:02:35,120 Speaker 1: or it was like the coal or the oil up 40 00:02:35,160 --> 00:02:41,040 Speaker 1: till about the beginning of the nineteenth century. I asked myself, Oh, well, 41 00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:45,280 Speaker 1: the trees must have played a pretty big role in 42 00:02:45,320 --> 00:02:50,280 Speaker 1: the development of societies. And so that's how I plunged 43 00:02:50,400 --> 00:02:53,959 Speaker 1: in without, you know, just making that assumption a little 44 00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:56,120 Speaker 1: Did I know it would take me on a forty 45 00:02:56,200 --> 00:03:01,400 Speaker 1: year like a trip, which which resulted in the new 46 00:03:01,440 --> 00:03:05,080 Speaker 1: Patagonia book. Yeah, the life cycle of this book is 47 00:03:05,080 --> 00:03:08,040 Speaker 1: really fascinating to me and quite unique, I think in 48 00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:10,840 Speaker 1: the world of books. The first edition, as you said, 49 00:03:10,880 --> 00:03:13,800 Speaker 1: came out in nineteen eighty nine. Now you have the 50 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:17,079 Speaker 1: third edition, which is significantly updated. But will you talk 51 00:03:17,120 --> 00:03:21,040 Speaker 1: about that lengthy road and how Patagonia ended up publishing 52 00:03:21,080 --> 00:03:23,800 Speaker 1: this new version of it. My whole life is based 53 00:03:23,840 --> 00:03:28,799 Speaker 1: on certaindipity. Anything I've ever planned never works out as expected. 54 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:33,400 Speaker 1: So what happened was I was leading the symposium at 55 00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:37,240 Speaker 1: the University of California, Santa Barbara on units Foot, the 56 00:03:37,280 --> 00:03:42,120 Speaker 1: woman who in eighteen fifty six discovered that carbon dioxide 57 00:03:42,160 --> 00:03:46,480 Speaker 1: as a greenhouse gas, and she's really the mother of 58 00:03:46,760 --> 00:03:49,839 Speaker 1: climate change science. And so I was doing the first 59 00:03:49,880 --> 00:03:53,840 Speaker 1: symposium ever done at the university, and that was in 60 00:03:53,880 --> 00:03:58,280 Speaker 1: two eighteen. And the local newspaper called the Santa Barbara 61 00:03:58,280 --> 00:04:03,880 Speaker 1: Independent have a story on the symposium, and the Schnards, 62 00:04:03,920 --> 00:04:08,840 Speaker 1: who own Patagonia, saw that I was in Santa Barbara, 63 00:04:08,880 --> 00:04:13,440 Speaker 1: only twenty five miles away from their headquarters, and so 64 00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:16,920 Speaker 1: suddenly they wrote to the editor of this Santa Barbara 65 00:04:16,920 --> 00:04:19,880 Speaker 1: Independent and said, we've been trying to find John for 66 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:23,520 Speaker 1: like a decade because this is our favorite book and 67 00:04:24,680 --> 00:04:28,239 Speaker 1: we would like to connect with them, and so about 68 00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:30,840 Speaker 1: I would say, about a month or two later, I 69 00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:35,840 Speaker 1: was signing a contract with Patagonia to do this a 70 00:04:35,880 --> 00:04:41,279 Speaker 1: new book. And the fortunate part of it was a 71 00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:46,039 Speaker 1: lot had happened, both in historical research and also in 72 00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:51,680 Speaker 1: modern research on the importance of trees. Obviously, you've been 73 00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:55,000 Speaker 1: researching this now for decades, and even when we do 74 00:04:55,520 --> 00:04:57,719 Speaker 1: our show, I mean we've been doing it for ten years, 75 00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:00,760 Speaker 1: and the things that have become available to us over 76 00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:05,720 Speaker 1: that decade have shifted consistently and expanded a lot as 77 00:05:05,760 --> 00:05:09,240 Speaker 1: we've gone just because of new technologies, more things being digitized. 78 00:05:09,839 --> 00:05:13,240 Speaker 1: How much has your research changed and expanded as a 79 00:05:13,279 --> 00:05:19,080 Speaker 1: consequence of going on through several decades worth of work. Well, 80 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:22,880 Speaker 1: for example, in nineteen eighty nine, there was no Internet, 81 00:05:23,400 --> 00:05:27,560 Speaker 1: so the searching was a lot more in depth, and 82 00:05:27,720 --> 00:05:31,760 Speaker 1: also being part of the University. They have an online 83 00:05:31,760 --> 00:05:34,720 Speaker 1: all library of all the important journals, even the very 84 00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:39,800 Speaker 1: esoteric arcade journals, which ended up helping me very much. 85 00:05:40,279 --> 00:05:44,960 Speaker 1: But also the science of forestry had really changed over 86 00:05:45,040 --> 00:05:48,200 Speaker 1: the years that my book came out back in nineteen 87 00:05:48,320 --> 00:05:52,960 Speaker 1: ninety was the first study that was published in Science 88 00:05:53,040 --> 00:05:58,039 Speaker 1: magazine that old growth was really greater, oh you might say, 89 00:05:58,080 --> 00:06:03,840 Speaker 1: collector or absorber of carbon dioxide than say a young 90 00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:08,200 Speaker 1: tree or a tree that was allowed to be harvested 91 00:06:08,480 --> 00:06:11,720 Speaker 1: as a crop over sixty or seventy years. So that's 92 00:06:11,760 --> 00:06:15,400 Speaker 1: one example of how forestry has changed. And in the 93 00:06:15,480 --> 00:06:20,520 Speaker 1: last decade, all sorts of discoveries, for example, that trees 94 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:24,760 Speaker 1: create rainfall and they are responsible for at least forty 95 00:06:24,839 --> 00:06:30,080 Speaker 1: percent of the world's precipitation. For example, the Amazon creates 96 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:34,360 Speaker 1: a river in the sky that satiates the thirst of 97 00:06:34,440 --> 00:06:38,160 Speaker 1: people living all the way south than Planosiris, for example. 98 00:06:38,880 --> 00:06:43,880 Speaker 1: And trees in the Congo, for example, provide the water 99 00:06:44,240 --> 00:06:49,400 Speaker 1: for the Nile. And so all these plethora of new studies. 100 00:06:49,760 --> 00:06:52,840 Speaker 1: What it did was allowed me to show that in 101 00:06:52,920 --> 00:06:58,000 Speaker 1: times past the forests were necessary for the development of civilization, 102 00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:04,040 Speaker 1: and today forests are even more important for our existential survival. 103 00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:07,200 Speaker 1: Can you give us a quick science lesson and explain 104 00:07:07,279 --> 00:07:10,960 Speaker 1: how forests are responsible for precipitation? Oh, exactly, Well, what 105 00:07:11,360 --> 00:07:14,480 Speaker 1: forests do is they take you in a lot of 106 00:07:14,840 --> 00:07:20,000 Speaker 1: water because if the water in the leaves that interacts 107 00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:24,040 Speaker 1: with the sun to photosynthesize, where the tree gets all 108 00:07:24,080 --> 00:07:29,320 Speaker 1: its nourishment, but it only maybe ten or even last 109 00:07:29,320 --> 00:07:32,440 Speaker 1: percent of the water that goes up to the leaf 110 00:07:32,640 --> 00:07:35,360 Speaker 1: is used for this reaction, so that the rest of 111 00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:39,680 Speaker 1: the water is you might say, exhaled into the atmosphere, 112 00:07:40,160 --> 00:07:45,760 Speaker 1: and that water becomes clouds, and the clouds as they 113 00:07:46,400 --> 00:07:52,320 Speaker 1: go over areas becomes rain. Amazing. The way you trace 114 00:07:53,520 --> 00:07:58,400 Speaker 1: this history is tied really to not just the development 115 00:07:58,440 --> 00:08:01,600 Speaker 1: of like civilization, how we've used trees, but you really 116 00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:05,920 Speaker 1: trace the way that trees have developed, starting right out 117 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:09,240 Speaker 1: of the gate with what you call the earliest modern tree. 118 00:08:09,760 --> 00:08:12,880 Speaker 1: It's not what I call it, it's what every scientist 119 00:08:12,960 --> 00:08:17,000 Speaker 1: calls it. Gotcha, will you tell our listeners about that 120 00:08:17,120 --> 00:08:20,320 Speaker 1: and why it is important to note that moment historically 121 00:08:20,360 --> 00:08:24,360 Speaker 1: where the first modern tree starts to exist, the first 122 00:08:24,400 --> 00:08:26,640 Speaker 1: true tree. The reason why it's called the first true 123 00:08:26,680 --> 00:08:30,440 Speaker 1: tree is because it has deep roots for one thing, 124 00:08:31,720 --> 00:08:36,640 Speaker 1: and deep roots is where most of the sequestering of 125 00:08:36,920 --> 00:08:40,559 Speaker 1: carbon occurs. In the roots, what they do is they 126 00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:45,960 Speaker 1: change rainwater, which is basically diluted carbonic acid which means 127 00:08:46,559 --> 00:08:52,479 Speaker 1: liquid carbon, into what's called carbonates, which basically we call limestone. 128 00:08:53,280 --> 00:08:59,400 Speaker 1: And so when the carbon in the carbonic acid interacts 129 00:08:59,400 --> 00:09:03,559 Speaker 1: with the root, the roots changed the rainwater into carbonic 130 00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:07,720 Speaker 1: acid and then finally ends up in the sea where 131 00:09:07,720 --> 00:09:12,520 Speaker 1: it ends up as limestone. And that's where the carbon 132 00:09:12,559 --> 00:09:17,400 Speaker 1: dioxide is locked in right in rock, so it can't escape. 133 00:09:17,920 --> 00:09:21,839 Speaker 1: So what this true tree did was it was the 134 00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:27,200 Speaker 1: first plant that started to really take down the carbon 135 00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:31,640 Speaker 1: dioxide which was in access for any kind of large 136 00:09:31,720 --> 00:09:38,280 Speaker 1: life on the terrestrial planet. And also the leaves as 137 00:09:38,280 --> 00:09:43,959 Speaker 1: a photosynthesize, they give off oxygen, so it created an 138 00:09:44,080 --> 00:09:50,400 Speaker 1: oxygenated atmosphere where creatures like you and me can metabolize 139 00:09:50,679 --> 00:09:55,200 Speaker 1: and survive. And so the first four legged creatures were 140 00:09:55,320 --> 00:09:59,400 Speaker 1: attracted from the ocean. The first four legged creatures that 141 00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:03,840 Speaker 1: could had lungs like a lungfish could escape where you 142 00:10:03,960 --> 00:10:08,679 Speaker 1: had in the oceans at the time, huge voracious carnivorous fish, 143 00:10:08,760 --> 00:10:11,880 Speaker 1: and so you could end up on land where it 144 00:10:11,920 --> 00:10:15,199 Speaker 1: was a lot safer because you had you know, oxygen, 145 00:10:16,160 --> 00:10:20,320 Speaker 1: the capability of breathing. A lungfish can survive out of 146 00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:24,480 Speaker 1: water for multiple years, and they also have legs that 147 00:10:24,559 --> 00:10:29,840 Speaker 1: can walk, and so they believe the first creatures that 148 00:10:30,400 --> 00:10:35,520 Speaker 1: basically are the root of every like reptile, mammal, and 149 00:10:35,679 --> 00:10:40,480 Speaker 1: bird began he is with this tree you find the 150 00:10:40,640 --> 00:10:44,960 Speaker 1: first four legged creatures. They're called tetrapods. And as you know, 151 00:10:45,320 --> 00:10:49,360 Speaker 1: we have two hands, right and two legs, so we're 152 00:10:49,679 --> 00:10:55,079 Speaker 1: basically four limbed creature, right. And birds are the same way. 153 00:10:55,120 --> 00:10:58,400 Speaker 1: You know, they have wings two and they also have 154 00:10:58,559 --> 00:11:02,360 Speaker 1: two feet, and it goes you know, to amphibians, you know, 155 00:11:02,559 --> 00:11:06,600 Speaker 1: it goes into reptiles, up the whole tree of what's 156 00:11:06,600 --> 00:11:10,640 Speaker 1: called animals, right, And so it also provided a habitat 157 00:11:10,880 --> 00:11:15,720 Speaker 1: for these new pioneers into the land because the tree 158 00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:22,280 Speaker 1: coverage created basically food and form of belief and also 159 00:11:22,840 --> 00:11:27,439 Speaker 1: made a sort of heaven for little insects things like that. 160 00:11:27,840 --> 00:11:32,920 Speaker 1: And so the tree is called Archaeopterus. And in nineteen 161 00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:37,880 Speaker 1: ninety in Nature magazine, which is the premiere scientific magazine 162 00:11:37,880 --> 00:11:41,839 Speaker 1: in the world, announced the discovery of the first two 163 00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:47,080 Speaker 1: tree Archaeopterus because it had both roots, it had a trunk, 164 00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:50,079 Speaker 1: and this is really interesting. It had a trunk very 165 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:55,720 Speaker 1: similar to a pine and had branches with leaves on them. 166 00:11:55,840 --> 00:11:58,920 Speaker 1: And now what makes it even more fascinating. It's one 167 00:11:58,960 --> 00:12:04,920 Speaker 1: of what we call transitional fossils that proves the veracity 168 00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:09,280 Speaker 1: of Darwinism because the leaves were from an older type 169 00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:15,680 Speaker 1: of plant called the fern, but the trunk was exactly 170 00:12:15,760 --> 00:12:20,199 Speaker 1: like a gymnasperm. And so because on Earth at the time, 171 00:12:20,440 --> 00:12:23,960 Speaker 1: on the planet there was one single continent called Gowando Land, 172 00:12:23,960 --> 00:12:28,520 Speaker 1: a huge continent, the tree was able to proliferate throughout 173 00:12:28,640 --> 00:12:33,319 Speaker 1: the terrestrial world land world. And today we find fossils 174 00:12:33,360 --> 00:12:39,080 Speaker 1: of this tree in Oklahoma, in Pennsylvania, in Upstate New York, 175 00:12:39,679 --> 00:12:45,600 Speaker 1: in Ireland, in Morocco, and in South Africa, and also 176 00:12:45,840 --> 00:12:50,440 Speaker 1: all the way up Spisbergen, the big island off of 177 00:12:50,920 --> 00:12:55,680 Speaker 1: Norway in the Arctic Circle. They're everywhere where. The fossils 178 00:12:55,679 --> 00:12:59,000 Speaker 1: were everywhere because there was one big continent at the time, 179 00:12:59,440 --> 00:13:03,800 Speaker 1: and so it had the capability of spreading up. It's 180 00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:08,559 Speaker 1: what we're called heterospores, you know, their seeds, but they 181 00:13:08,559 --> 00:13:11,240 Speaker 1: were they were they were a primitive form of seed 182 00:13:11,559 --> 00:13:15,640 Speaker 1: throughout the world. Amazing. And so what this did was 183 00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:19,400 Speaker 1: with all all these and also because it had deep roots, 184 00:13:19,679 --> 00:13:23,880 Speaker 1: it was no longer dependent on being close to water, 185 00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:29,080 Speaker 1: so it could you know, be in various landscapes. And 186 00:13:29,200 --> 00:13:33,679 Speaker 1: so what the tree did was it initiated the takedown 187 00:13:33,840 --> 00:13:39,520 Speaker 1: of carbon dioxide, but also added so much oxygen that 188 00:13:39,559 --> 00:13:42,440 Speaker 1: we have evidence of the first forest fires because there 189 00:13:42,520 --> 00:13:49,400 Speaker 1: was sufficient oxygen for ignition. Oh wow. In fact, I 190 00:13:49,440 --> 00:13:52,319 Speaker 1: have a fossil collection because I actually like to go 191 00:13:52,960 --> 00:13:56,320 Speaker 1: to the places where I write about and experienced them physically. 192 00:13:57,120 --> 00:13:59,680 Speaker 1: And like I said, this is all in the new book, 193 00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:02,679 Speaker 1: it was, and then the old edition. I went and 194 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:09,040 Speaker 1: spent two weeks digging Archaeopterus fossils in Pennsylvania. And I have, 195 00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:14,000 Speaker 1: for example, charcoal that if you run your finger through it, 196 00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:18,240 Speaker 1: it's mirrors on your finger, even those three hundred today 197 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:22,720 Speaker 1: seventy million years as if I got the charcoal from 198 00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:27,320 Speaker 1: yesterday's campfire. Oh my goodness, that's amazing. So this this 199 00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:30,880 Speaker 1: was the you might say, introduced, we use this term 200 00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:36,280 Speaker 1: in science, introduced the tree idea that proliferated over the 201 00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:41,040 Speaker 1: hundreds of millions of years, amazing. What it did was 202 00:14:41,080 --> 00:14:47,560 Speaker 1: it made the climate possible for reasures to proliferate over 203 00:14:47,760 --> 00:14:51,400 Speaker 1: the millions of years. So if not for Archaeopterus, we 204 00:14:51,520 --> 00:15:03,800 Speaker 1: wouldn't be doing this interview. So that is obviously like 205 00:15:03,880 --> 00:15:06,760 Speaker 1: a very key moment in terms of the history of 206 00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:12,520 Speaker 1: trees on our planet developmentally for all species. But I 207 00:15:12,560 --> 00:15:14,840 Speaker 1: also want to ask you what you see is the 208 00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:18,840 Speaker 1: most important moment that trees were part of from a 209 00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:26,360 Speaker 1: technological standpoint for humanity. Well, actually the mis named stone 210 00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:31,280 Speaker 1: age was actually the wood age. And if not for 211 00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:37,600 Speaker 1: wood fires, for example, none of our species could have 212 00:15:38,280 --> 00:15:42,600 Speaker 1: traveled out of Africa because it gets cold, you know, 213 00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:46,640 Speaker 1: when you go up north. And if not for wood fires, 214 00:15:46,880 --> 00:15:50,600 Speaker 1: we would have you know, no hope Homo sapien ancestors 215 00:15:51,080 --> 00:15:54,880 Speaker 1: in the majority of the world. So but and secondly, 216 00:15:55,440 --> 00:16:01,600 Speaker 1: the would enable of the first the Homo sapiens and 217 00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:07,800 Speaker 1: also the Neanderthals to actually more successfully use their stone tools, 218 00:16:08,280 --> 00:16:11,320 Speaker 1: because if you've ever trying to break a rock holding 219 00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:14,640 Speaker 1: a stone without a handle, you don't get very far right. 220 00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:21,400 Speaker 1: So what and these are recent discoveries, is that Neanderthals 221 00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:27,960 Speaker 1: and early Homo sapiens used wood handles for all their implements, 222 00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:33,000 Speaker 1: which also provided survival for us to live today. And 223 00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:36,600 Speaker 1: so I hope I'm answering your question. And so then 224 00:16:36,680 --> 00:16:40,760 Speaker 1: as we get to quote civilizations, this is where we 225 00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:46,640 Speaker 1: see most of the deforestation. Actually, forests covered almost sixty 226 00:16:46,680 --> 00:16:50,960 Speaker 1: percent of the habitable land on Earth ten thousand years ago. 227 00:16:51,560 --> 00:16:57,160 Speaker 1: We've cut down at least thirty percent, and eighty percent 228 00:16:57,280 --> 00:17:02,520 Speaker 1: of that thirty percent happened as civilization arose five thousand 229 00:17:02,600 --> 00:17:06,480 Speaker 1: years ago. And so that's actually the book is the 230 00:17:06,560 --> 00:17:14,080 Speaker 1: story two of how civilizations depended upon wood, but also 231 00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:19,600 Speaker 1: that dependency on the wood required massive deforestation. And the 232 00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:25,639 Speaker 1: first story of deforestation is in the epic of Gilgameshr. Yeah, 233 00:17:25,680 --> 00:17:29,200 Speaker 1: I really really enjoyed that section because it makes very 234 00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:33,800 Speaker 1: clear that the very thing that any person of power 235 00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:37,640 Speaker 1: was doing, like trying to build so aggressively to expand 236 00:17:37,680 --> 00:17:41,040 Speaker 1: their culture, destroyed the very resources that they needed to 237 00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:44,320 Speaker 1: sustain that culture. And that happened over and over. There 238 00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:47,560 Speaker 1: are many instances of that throughout the book. Are there 239 00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:51,399 Speaker 1: any historical examples of civilizations or cultures where that is 240 00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:54,040 Speaker 1: not the case, where they realized that there was that 241 00:17:54,760 --> 00:17:58,280 Speaker 1: delicate balance that needed to be respected? There was a 242 00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:03,200 Speaker 1: counter argument made at that time at the epoch of Gilgamesh. 243 00:18:04,119 --> 00:18:06,480 Speaker 1: As you probably might have read at the end of 244 00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:10,440 Speaker 1: the book, one of the partner of Gilgamesh who cut 245 00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:15,080 Speaker 1: down the forests, and the partner who participated, as they 246 00:18:15,119 --> 00:18:19,280 Speaker 1: were coming down on wooden rafts, he looks at Gilgamesh 247 00:18:19,320 --> 00:18:24,400 Speaker 1: and he says, I think we've turned the Cedar forest 248 00:18:24,600 --> 00:18:28,000 Speaker 1: into a waste land. And then he says, what will 249 00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:31,119 Speaker 1: our gods think of us? So here you have the 250 00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:36,560 Speaker 1: first environmental realization that perhaps we have done great harm. 251 00:18:37,119 --> 00:18:40,679 Speaker 1: That's amazing. So this is a five thousand, four hundred 252 00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:46,240 Speaker 1: years ago and as an example of the new material, 253 00:18:46,800 --> 00:18:52,600 Speaker 1: the ultimate translation of Gilgamesh appeared in two thousand and one, 254 00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:58,600 Speaker 1: which greatly aided the chapter on Gilgamesh. And remember Gilgamesh 255 00:18:58,640 --> 00:19:02,520 Speaker 1: came from Eric and Rick was the first outpost of 256 00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:07,000 Speaker 1: civilization in the world. And so it's a story that 257 00:19:07,520 --> 00:19:13,840 Speaker 1: actually provides the platform for a forrest journey, because it's 258 00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:19,440 Speaker 1: Gilgamesh's forrest journey that then I'd tell year after year 259 00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:25,480 Speaker 1: after Gilgamesh. So Gilgamesh, see, he was really bummed out 260 00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:30,080 Speaker 1: because he was two thirds god and one third human. 261 00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:33,240 Speaker 1: So he was like mortal, and so he wanted to 262 00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:36,520 Speaker 1: make a name for himself, and suddenly he came upon 263 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:39,560 Speaker 1: the only way was to cut down the cedar forest 264 00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:44,080 Speaker 1: to build civilization. And so this is the whole you 265 00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:49,359 Speaker 1: might say, bouquet of the book. So just like Archaeopterus 266 00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:57,200 Speaker 1: shows the value of the tree, the Gilgamesh episode shows 267 00:19:57,359 --> 00:20:00,080 Speaker 1: where we're going to go as the sort of the 268 00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:04,119 Speaker 1: prelude to the rest of the book. Right, And just 269 00:20:04,200 --> 00:20:09,120 Speaker 1: to add is that the gods lived in the forest 270 00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:14,399 Speaker 1: because at that time, according to the writer, the forests 271 00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:17,960 Speaker 1: were they heaven on earth. So why did they have 272 00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:22,520 Speaker 1: to go? You know, it was only when gilgames cut 273 00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:26,720 Speaker 1: down the abode of the gods that they had to 274 00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:31,640 Speaker 1: seek life far away as possible from human beings, way 275 00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:34,520 Speaker 1: up in the sky. Oh that's interesting. I hadn't thought 276 00:20:34,520 --> 00:20:38,760 Speaker 1: about that. How that shifts are our storytelling as well 277 00:20:38,760 --> 00:20:43,440 Speaker 1: as our civilization. Well. Also what's interesting about the Gilgamesh 278 00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:46,760 Speaker 1: story is that the guardian of the forest, and this 279 00:20:46,840 --> 00:20:49,840 Speaker 1: is all from the new translation, he was placed by 280 00:20:49,840 --> 00:20:53,639 Speaker 1: the gods to keep humans out. He had, according to 281 00:20:53,680 --> 00:21:00,400 Speaker 1: the translator, a tusk. And the implication is that elephants 282 00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:05,720 Speaker 1: once roamed you know, the Middle East in the lush forests, 283 00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:09,160 Speaker 1: and once again in the last few years, and this 284 00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:14,240 Speaker 1: is part of the new book. They've discovered in northern 285 00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:20,800 Speaker 1: Syria plethora of ancient elephant bones. And actually also in 286 00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:24,960 Speaker 1: new translations of the you might say, the platforms of 287 00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:30,840 Speaker 1: the various Mesopotamian kings, they all brag about killing elephants 288 00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:33,159 Speaker 1: in the Middle East. And can you imagine, I mean 289 00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:38,120 Speaker 1: think of it. Do you think of the hills in Iran, 290 00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:44,080 Speaker 1: for example, to be the equivalent of say the Pacific Northwest? No? 291 00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:49,040 Speaker 1: And where have all the elephants gone? Right? Right? Because 292 00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:52,119 Speaker 1: what happened? And that's another important part of a book 293 00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:57,120 Speaker 1: is that the forest is the habitat for almost all 294 00:21:57,160 --> 00:22:00,359 Speaker 1: living creatures. It makes you think about what could have 295 00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:04,080 Speaker 1: been had people been more thoughtful about that? Correct and 296 00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:08,040 Speaker 1: what's And also you asked, well, where there are conservation 297 00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:13,520 Speaker 1: minded people? Well? In Genesis, for example, in the Hebrew Bible, 298 00:22:14,400 --> 00:22:19,919 Speaker 1: the first demand of God to Adam is and I 299 00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:24,960 Speaker 1: speak Hebrew soum as leishmarhad seem, which means protect, but 300 00:22:25,080 --> 00:22:29,159 Speaker 1: a protect in a very militant way the trees m 301 00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:34,720 Speaker 1: So it's right there. From the beginning. The message has existed. Well. Also, 302 00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:39,439 Speaker 1: what's really interesting I've been going through is that in Ezekiel, 303 00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:43,640 Speaker 1: for example, the death of a tyrant is described as 304 00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:47,840 Speaker 1: them is falling like a huge cedar. And once again 305 00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:53,520 Speaker 1: in the Bible there's the environmentalism where for example, in Isaiah, 306 00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:57,200 Speaker 1: a Zaiah takes the life of an oak and he 307 00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:02,000 Speaker 1: like rubs his brow and safety because he says that 308 00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:07,560 Speaker 1: the great king a Sargan the Great has died, and 309 00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:12,840 Speaker 1: so now I the oak can flourish with the Messiah coming. 310 00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:18,680 Speaker 1: In Isaiah is like the desert gets transformed as a woodland, 311 00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:24,320 Speaker 1: and Israel was again has plenty of water. And that's 312 00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:29,760 Speaker 1: what we earlier discussed is the relationship between trees and precipitation. 313 00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:33,880 Speaker 1: So that was recognized like maybe what three or four 314 00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:38,840 Speaker 1: thousand years ago, that relationship, So we knew that from 315 00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:43,800 Speaker 1: the stories in the Hebrew Bible, and yet no one learned. 316 00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:48,040 Speaker 1: He also included the story in the book about Cicero, 317 00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:52,720 Speaker 1: raising concern that Rome was destroying its forest lands. And 318 00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:54,960 Speaker 1: there have been, like you said, all of these other 319 00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:59,800 Speaker 1: warnings that have come along throughout history. How have those 320 00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:03,840 Speaker 1: warnings of the need for conservation been perceived throughout history? 321 00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:07,480 Speaker 1: You know, today it's a battleground for a lot of people, 322 00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:12,800 Speaker 1: but I'm wondering how it was perceived in previous civilizations. Well, 323 00:24:13,119 --> 00:24:17,520 Speaker 1: it's interesting. I appreciate you bringing up Cicero, because what 324 00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:22,639 Speaker 1: Cicero was complaining about, he was complaining about the vineyards 325 00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:26,880 Speaker 1: taking over the forests. And that's happened in the happening 326 00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:32,320 Speaker 1: in California where both in the north the reds are 327 00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:35,360 Speaker 1: giving way to the vineyards and in where I live, 328 00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:41,880 Speaker 1: the oaks have been decimated for vineyards. And so Cicero, 329 00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:47,160 Speaker 1: thousands of years ago, was on a rampage, you might say, 330 00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:50,679 Speaker 1: like he says, he says, much better to have oaks 331 00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:54,800 Speaker 1: than to have wine. And yet oh, so many people 332 00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:57,800 Speaker 1: I know, see, nobody puts things together. And that's what 333 00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:01,040 Speaker 1: I hope my book does, is nobody puts together the 334 00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:05,240 Speaker 1: fact that they're drinking wine and that caused the destruction 335 00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:08,639 Speaker 1: of the trees. And so maybe we can change our 336 00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:13,639 Speaker 1: activity a bit to have the trees flourished. But until 337 00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:20,200 Speaker 1: we learn these of various dependencies you might say, or threats, 338 00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:23,680 Speaker 1: like so people, you know, horror, horror, I want to 339 00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:28,440 Speaker 1: drink my wine, right, But nobody puts it together. By 340 00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:35,080 Speaker 1: purchasing wine, you're actually supporting the decimation of the woodlands. Yeah, 341 00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:38,240 Speaker 1: there's so many instances of cause and effect that I 342 00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:40,840 Speaker 1: don't think most of us even think about that are 343 00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:43,960 Speaker 1: super important. I want to talk about some of the 344 00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:47,240 Speaker 1: additional really fascinating stories that you tell in this book, 345 00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:52,240 Speaker 1: because there was one that I read that was completely captivating. 346 00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:56,000 Speaker 1: You talked about in Greek Asia minor after the Homeric Age. 347 00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:58,760 Speaker 1: There's a section in the book about it about farmers 348 00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:02,920 Speaker 1: suing a which made me like do a triple take 349 00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:05,240 Speaker 1: and reread the paragraph over and over. Can you tell 350 00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:08,359 Speaker 1: us that story? Oh, I'd love to. So what happened 351 00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:13,680 Speaker 1: was by deforesting the river banks, the siltation created a 352 00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:19,359 Speaker 1: very like you know, windy river and also like destroyed 353 00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:25,359 Speaker 1: the ports that it fit into. Because once the protection 354 00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:29,440 Speaker 1: of the soil by the routes is removed, than just 355 00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:33,960 Speaker 1: all the earth comes down and silts up at the 356 00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:37,639 Speaker 1: work comes out in the ocean, which we call the delta, 357 00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:43,760 Speaker 1: and so the ports no longer were ports because of 358 00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:47,920 Speaker 1: the creation of deltas. And so what the farmers did, 359 00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:53,080 Speaker 1: because they lost land because of you know, erosion, they 360 00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:58,080 Speaker 1: would charge a ferry boat ride to compensate for that 361 00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:02,560 Speaker 1: loss of agland. H. I think that answers your question 362 00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:06,199 Speaker 1: right now. Yeah, that this is the compensated by suing 363 00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:10,040 Speaker 1: the river and forcing the people who needed to go 364 00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:15,240 Speaker 1: across to pay for the damage of the river had 365 00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:20,040 Speaker 1: done and deforestation had created. There are a lot of 366 00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:24,920 Speaker 1: examples in your book, obviously of just casual overusage of 367 00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:28,400 Speaker 1: wood resources that I had never thought about. The one 368 00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:31,359 Speaker 1: that jumped out to me was just something that we 369 00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:35,080 Speaker 1: think about often in very romantic terms, is the baths 370 00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:38,480 Speaker 1: of Rome, but heating those baths ate up a lot 371 00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:42,240 Speaker 1: of wood. Will you talk about some other instances of 372 00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:46,840 Speaker 1: resource overuse in history that we might not automatically think about. Well, 373 00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:49,040 Speaker 1: I'd like to talk about the baths of Rome, because 374 00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:52,480 Speaker 1: that's one of the ways I got into writing about 375 00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:56,720 Speaker 1: a Forest Journey, because the Baths of Rome, because of 376 00:27:56,960 --> 00:28:03,080 Speaker 1: the fuel shortages that created, because to keep the Romans 377 00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:08,240 Speaker 1: loved their baths to be you know, steaming hot, like 378 00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:12,639 Speaker 1: like not like like like sixty degrees, not seventy degrees, 379 00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:16,280 Speaker 1: not eighty degrees, you know, about one hundred rights. And 380 00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:20,359 Speaker 1: they actually had sweat rooms two to heat, right, and 381 00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:26,920 Speaker 1: so all these trunks. They burned trunk after trunk of wood, 382 00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:32,000 Speaker 1: and this is one of the entrees as I began 383 00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:36,440 Speaker 1: my research from my solar experiences, because the Romans were 384 00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:41,280 Speaker 1: the first people to discover their glass traps solar heat. 385 00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:45,080 Speaker 1: As to what they did is they designed their baths 386 00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:48,480 Speaker 1: so they all faced the winter sun. So during the 387 00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:52,400 Speaker 1: colder part of the year in rome U, the sun's 388 00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:56,120 Speaker 1: beams would come into the bath and be captured because 389 00:28:56,600 --> 00:29:00,920 Speaker 1: the wavelengths were our different, our difference when the sun 390 00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:04,680 Speaker 1: goes in and when it's turned into heat. And so 391 00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:09,320 Speaker 1: this was a solar plan that all the leading Roman 392 00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:14,440 Speaker 1: architects actually wrote about that we still have access to. 393 00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:21,560 Speaker 1: And so the question is where did the trees come from? 394 00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:24,800 Speaker 1: And this will blow you out to a good portion 395 00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:28,280 Speaker 1: of the trees came from North Africa, which was considered 396 00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:32,680 Speaker 1: the great woodland of the Roman Empire. And as a 397 00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:39,000 Speaker 1: parallel to oil, you know, being transported by oil tankers, 398 00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:44,000 Speaker 1: the Romans had five hundred boats ships that were in 399 00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:50,320 Speaker 1: constant travel between the forests of North Africa and the 400 00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:55,120 Speaker 1: baths of rome Because if the Romans didn't have hot baths, 401 00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:59,640 Speaker 1: there would be immediate rebellion and to keep the population. 402 00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:02,520 Speaker 1: It's sort of like California where if you don't have 403 00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:05,800 Speaker 1: your hot tub, you know, your natural draft for your 404 00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:08,720 Speaker 1: hot tub, you know, you'll uh, you you'll you'll start 405 00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:15,360 Speaker 1: to uh, you know, get really pissed. Right, Um, do 406 00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:21,440 Speaker 1: you have a nominee for most careless civilization when it 407 00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:26,160 Speaker 1: came to forests? Is it us? Well, I don't know 408 00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:28,800 Speaker 1: if you're familiar. Are you familiar with the walrus and 409 00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:32,600 Speaker 1: the carpenter and Alice in wonder Land? Yes? Okay, well 410 00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:34,880 Speaker 1: with the walters and the carpenter there was a um 411 00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:37,960 Speaker 1: and you're and you're familiar with Tweedlede and tweedledumb right 412 00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:43,760 Speaker 1: of course? Okay, well, um, Tweedledee asked Alice, after you 413 00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:46,320 Speaker 1: know that, they told her the walters and the carpenter 414 00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:51,440 Speaker 1: poem right, who did she think was worse, the walrus 415 00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:54,400 Speaker 1: or the carpenter, And so Alice jumped to us, I 416 00:30:54,440 --> 00:31:00,560 Speaker 1: think the walrus because he ate um more oysters. But 417 00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:03,840 Speaker 1: then Tweedledum jumped on her and said, but the carpenter 418 00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:08,280 Speaker 1: tried to eat as many as he could. And so 419 00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:13,040 Speaker 1: I think the same thing, as with civilizations, is depending 420 00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:19,600 Speaker 1: on the ability to access timber you had more consumption, 421 00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:24,160 Speaker 1: and so the difference was in olden times it was 422 00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:33,040 Speaker 1: economically not feasible to collect wood more than fifteen miles 423 00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:39,800 Speaker 1: from a river. Right, But when were you developed, for example, 424 00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:44,840 Speaker 1: the railroad you could go in and just you know, 425 00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:48,560 Speaker 1: just wherever you built the track, you can you could 426 00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:51,800 Speaker 1: like go take it out. In fact, I don't know 427 00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:54,479 Speaker 1: if you noticed in the book, there's an incredible picture 428 00:31:54,960 --> 00:32:00,120 Speaker 1: of a railroad train with all the flat cars. It's 429 00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:03,080 Speaker 1: carrying these huge logs. Did you see that? Yeah, you know, 430 00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:05,680 Speaker 1: I mean they were just huge. I mean, I don't 431 00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:08,520 Speaker 1: think we could in California we could dream of trees 432 00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:10,840 Speaker 1: being that large. In fact, there are several I think, 433 00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:16,440 Speaker 1: very striking pictures of you know, the girth of those 434 00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:21,000 Speaker 1: trees and also the um to show how little respect 435 00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:24,120 Speaker 1: people had is. There's one image and this is all 436 00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:26,760 Speaker 1: new and then it never was shown before in the 437 00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:31,520 Speaker 1: other editions. Uh is a dance floor creed and from 438 00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:37,240 Speaker 1: the stump of a giant sequoia. Yeah, where where forty 439 00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:41,720 Speaker 1: people are dancing astonishing? Yeah, So it's it's it's the 440 00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:45,640 Speaker 1: old like tweetled the tweetled you know, now a story 441 00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:49,560 Speaker 1: of Loris and Carpenter is I think all societies and 442 00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:54,840 Speaker 1: that includes uh, you know we people. Some people worship 443 00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:57,760 Speaker 1: you know, the noble savage or the indigenous as they 444 00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:02,960 Speaker 1: call it. But they were as destructive. But they only 445 00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:06,760 Speaker 1: had the capability, for example in North America, because they 446 00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:10,760 Speaker 1: didn't they didn't even have like draft animals, right, So 447 00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:17,080 Speaker 1: you realized that they were constricted in damaging the forest 448 00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:22,480 Speaker 1: by a their sparse population size. And also they did 449 00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:25,480 Speaker 1: not have metal tools. I don't know if you know that, right. 450 00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:30,040 Speaker 1: The reason for that is because they came over from 451 00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:35,600 Speaker 1: Asia before metallurgy developed, oh that, and so they didn't 452 00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:39,240 Speaker 1: have in their tool kit, right, they had handles, right, 453 00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:43,200 Speaker 1: they had handles for stone tools, which I elaborated came 454 00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:46,120 Speaker 1: from the stone age, but from the metal age, which 455 00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:53,040 Speaker 1: I also show is not the correct name. It's the 456 00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:58,400 Speaker 1: charcoal age because without charcoal, there was no way you 457 00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:07,440 Speaker 1: could remove the metal from the rock. Because we only 458 00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:10,719 Speaker 1: have like five percent of the world, we have a 459 00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:15,120 Speaker 1: metal that's called native metal that you know, is pure 460 00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:20,560 Speaker 1: and the other comes as or and so that had 461 00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:23,799 Speaker 1: to be extracted by heat. And so the metal age 462 00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:27,760 Speaker 1: is another misnomer because it's actually the charcoal age. Because 463 00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:34,200 Speaker 1: without charcoal, which provides a hot and steady fuel, we 464 00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:38,680 Speaker 1: could have never extracted of that metal from the stone. 465 00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:51,920 Speaker 1: The book is so beautiful. Congratulations on this update. It's gorgeous. 466 00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:55,440 Speaker 1: But I as my parting question, I would love to 467 00:34:55,640 --> 00:35:01,160 Speaker 1: ask you what you feel like is the most important 468 00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:03,600 Speaker 1: lesson we can take from learning about the history of 469 00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:07,480 Speaker 1: trees as we move into the future, stay out of 470 00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:13,719 Speaker 1: the forest. So many people will be chagrined at the 471 00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:17,200 Speaker 1: thought of that advice, I think, well, yeah, I mean, 472 00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:24,080 Speaker 1: we can't drink a petroleum right, right, and we it's 473 00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:31,400 Speaker 1: scientifically proved that not only do the trees provide water locally, 474 00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:35,440 Speaker 1: but also they act like relays. So like I said earlier, 475 00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:41,080 Speaker 1: they take water and take it, say a thousand miles away. 476 00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:47,040 Speaker 1: For example, the forests in Siberia provide China with rain. 477 00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:52,520 Speaker 1: So if we remove all the forests, no water, right, 478 00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:59,520 Speaker 1: and water is I think much more important than you 479 00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:03,560 Speaker 1: know and other resource, because without water we could only 480 00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:09,000 Speaker 1: subsist for three days, right, And so basically I hope 481 00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:14,960 Speaker 1: people see the folly that other civilizations like oh Um 482 00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:18,239 Speaker 1: went through to say hey, uh, you know, a big 483 00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:20,359 Speaker 1: slam in the face and say wake up, wake up, 484 00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:24,399 Speaker 1: you know, um, let's not repeat. And I also hope 485 00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:27,480 Speaker 1: they see that the forests are so valuable. For example, 486 00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:31,480 Speaker 1: there's a portion that talks about human health and forests. Yes, 487 00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:38,400 Speaker 1: where the major illnesses that people in um the world 488 00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:43,280 Speaker 1: have suffered were created by removing the trees which served 489 00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:49,520 Speaker 1: as a barrier or you might say, a social distancing. 490 00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:54,920 Speaker 1: And once we open the forest, we open humanity to 491 00:36:55,080 --> 00:37:01,960 Speaker 1: these terrible diseases like lime disease alike, oh ebol, like malaria. 492 00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:06,320 Speaker 1: And actually, in twenty eighteen, I got a hold of 493 00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:11,120 Speaker 1: a article in the leading a journal on Frontiers and 494 00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:18,680 Speaker 1: Microbiology which was titled bats, deforestation and coronaviruses. Oh wow, 495 00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:23,920 Speaker 1: and all the coronaviruses. There's two or three various coronaviruses. 496 00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:30,000 Speaker 1: And the proven origins of these other coronaviruses have always 497 00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:34,840 Speaker 1: been the opening of the forest. And so you know, 498 00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:37,719 Speaker 1: you know, right now in Congress, because they want to 499 00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:44,239 Speaker 1: find an enemy, no one's looking at the possible relationship 500 00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:51,920 Speaker 1: of deforestation and the COVID decimation of the world. Well, 501 00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:55,960 Speaker 1: hopefully they will all read and learn if that's what 502 00:37:56,080 --> 00:37:57,839 Speaker 1: you know, I mean, that's that's the help. So you're 503 00:37:57,840 --> 00:38:01,359 Speaker 1: still so you asked why did I do the book? Well, 504 00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:06,040 Speaker 1: I thought I had a whole novel look at the world, 505 00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:10,080 Speaker 1: which I think you agree upon. Yeah, And so hopefully 506 00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:13,919 Speaker 1: this will wake up people to say, you know, we've 507 00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:18,360 Speaker 1: got to stay out of the forest. And actually perhaps 508 00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:23,920 Speaker 1: we value people not doing work at all and getting 509 00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:29,000 Speaker 1: paid for it because they would otherwise need to cut 510 00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:32,439 Speaker 1: down the wood, you know, for lumber, for vineyards, et cetera, 511 00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:35,960 Speaker 1: et cetera. Right, so if we could develop a different 512 00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:44,719 Speaker 1: um philosophy where um basically having our hands psycho just uh, 513 00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:48,640 Speaker 1: maybe dancing or something like that, you know, a set 514 00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:52,399 Speaker 1: of the chainsaw. That sounds like a lot more fun 515 00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:58,480 Speaker 1: to me. Yeah, and to understand m For example, the 516 00:38:58,560 --> 00:39:01,560 Speaker 1: best example of what happens when you cut down the 517 00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:08,000 Speaker 1: forest in China, for example, under Mousey Tung, the bust 518 00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:11,480 Speaker 1: storms that created the pollution in Beasing was all a 519 00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:17,400 Speaker 1: consequence of urging the peasants to cut down the trees 520 00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:21,759 Speaker 1: for fuel to make iron. You know, it was the 521 00:39:21,880 --> 00:39:24,960 Speaker 1: great leap forward. And the great leap forward was actually 522 00:39:25,040 --> 00:39:30,120 Speaker 1: a great like oh oh somersault backwards. Right, we did 523 00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:34,040 Speaker 1: we did a multipart coverage of the great leap forward, 524 00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:38,399 Speaker 1: so our listeners will be very familiar with that. Yeah, oh, 525 00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:41,480 Speaker 1: so much food for thought. I thank you so much, 526 00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:43,759 Speaker 1: John for spending this time with me. I feel so 527 00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:46,600 Speaker 1: lucky to get to learn from you. Okay, well, thank 528 00:39:46,600 --> 00:39:49,719 Speaker 1: you so much for having me. Many many thanks to 529 00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:52,200 Speaker 1: John for spending this time with me and talking about 530 00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:54,960 Speaker 1: just a handful of the historical events that he covers 531 00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:57,640 Speaker 1: in the book. This whole thing definitely made me think 532 00:39:57,680 --> 00:40:01,279 Speaker 1: about how closely entwined the success and health of our 533 00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:04,600 Speaker 1: forests are with the success and health of the people 534 00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:07,279 Speaker 1: here on Earth, and that happening often in ways that 535 00:40:07,360 --> 00:40:10,000 Speaker 1: we don't consider. So I'm grateful to have this opportunity. 536 00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:14,320 Speaker 1: John has also written several books on solar history, including 537 00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:17,680 Speaker 1: A Golden Thread Twenty five hundred Years of Solar Architecture 538 00:40:17,719 --> 00:40:21,080 Speaker 1: and Technology and Let It Shine, The six thousand year 539 00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:25,279 Speaker 1: Story of Solar Energy. This new and heavily expanded edition 540 00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:29,120 Speaker 1: of A Forest Journey is available now wherever books are sold. 541 00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:34,520 Speaker 1: For listener mail, I have an email from our listener Rachel, 542 00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:39,640 Speaker 1: who wrote a really interesting email about the Alma Petty 543 00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:44,480 Speaker 1: Gatlin trial, and she writes, good afternoon, Holly and Tracy 544 00:40:44,560 --> 00:40:47,480 Speaker 1: slash Tracy and Holly. I just finished your latest podcast 545 00:40:47,520 --> 00:40:50,000 Speaker 1: on Alma Petty Gatlin and the violations of her most 546 00:40:50,120 --> 00:40:53,120 Speaker 1: vocal accuser as a man of the cloth. This triggered 547 00:40:53,160 --> 00:40:55,680 Speaker 1: a memory from while I was an attorney serving in 548 00:40:55,760 --> 00:40:59,000 Speaker 1: the Army. An Army judge advocate, I was stationed at 549 00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:01,960 Speaker 1: a base in Virginia working as a command advisor and litigator, 550 00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:04,760 Speaker 1: and while it was not my usual assignment, a colleague 551 00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:07,440 Speaker 1: in my office was going on vacation and asked me 552 00:41:07,560 --> 00:41:10,040 Speaker 1: to cover a legal brief for the semi annual regional 553 00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:13,080 Speaker 1: Chaplain week long training block. I know, you know, but 554 00:41:13,239 --> 00:41:17,000 Speaker 1: just as a note, chaplains are the military version of counselors, 555 00:41:17,080 --> 00:41:19,919 Speaker 1: and while they have an ordained religion and may host 556 00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:24,080 Speaker 1: religious services, they are generally available, regardless of faith, as 557 00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:27,919 Speaker 1: therapeutic and spiritual help to many military families and individuals. 558 00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:31,520 Speaker 1: The day of the presentation, I followed the PowerPoint slides 559 00:41:31,560 --> 00:41:35,879 Speaker 1: brief defining privilege and walking through military, state and federal regulations. 560 00:41:36,520 --> 00:41:39,560 Speaker 1: Then we got to what religious type privilege did not cover. 561 00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:42,040 Speaker 1: I gave the example that a chaplain who was a 562 00:41:42,080 --> 00:41:44,640 Speaker 1: witness to a car accident would not be bound by 563 00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:47,680 Speaker 1: privilege to testify to what they heard and visually observed 564 00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:51,320 Speaker 1: as a bystander slash witness. I was not ready for 565 00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:55,640 Speaker 1: the spectacle that ensued. Nearly every chaplain had some vocal 566 00:41:55,680 --> 00:41:59,520 Speaker 1: objection or what if. Some stated that by being a 567 00:41:59,640 --> 00:42:02,839 Speaker 1: first responder to the accident, they'd rush over to pray 568 00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:06,440 Speaker 1: with the people involved in the car accident, thus invoking privilege. 569 00:42:06,960 --> 00:42:09,600 Speaker 1: Others said that because God put them at that scene, 570 00:42:09,680 --> 00:42:11,759 Speaker 1: it was a call from a higher power to have 571 00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:15,440 Speaker 1: them intervene and help, therefore preventing them from serving as 572 00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:18,080 Speaker 1: witness in a court of law. As I was trying 573 00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:21,200 Speaker 1: to allay these initial concerns, the Catholic priests chimed in 574 00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:24,560 Speaker 1: and say they wouldn't speak ever, period, And this spiraled 575 00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:28,120 Speaker 1: into a cacophony of chaplain's declaring over one another their 576 00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:32,200 Speaker 1: willingness to go to hypothetical jail before ever, potentially violating 577 00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:35,719 Speaker 1: any privilege regardless of what any secular judge would order 578 00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:39,840 Speaker 1: against them. Despite my efforts, the presentation devolved into a 579 00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:43,000 Speaker 1: religious kind of green eggs and ham a discourse in 580 00:42:43,080 --> 00:42:45,440 Speaker 1: a car in a bar. We went more than thirty 581 00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:48,080 Speaker 1: minutes over my scheduled time at lunch, no less, and 582 00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:50,520 Speaker 1: no one in the audience seemed to mind. Given the 583 00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:53,240 Speaker 1: passion that I experienced that day. It was bizarre, indeed, 584 00:42:53,320 --> 00:42:56,320 Speaker 1: to hear about a man so flippantly betraying that privilege. 585 00:42:56,840 --> 00:42:59,240 Speaker 1: His religious leaders of his time must have been rocked 586 00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:02,759 Speaker 1: at his violation and its subsequent publicity. Anyway, I hope 587 00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:04,200 Speaker 1: you get a kick out of this story. I love 588 00:43:04,239 --> 00:43:07,280 Speaker 1: your podcast. I've been listening since fall of twenty thirteen, 589 00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:09,759 Speaker 1: when I started law school and needed something to listen 590 00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:13,000 Speaker 1: to that was lighthearted but still informative. I love how 591 00:43:13,040 --> 00:43:15,759 Speaker 1: the podcast has developed since then. This funny to have 592 00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:18,640 Speaker 1: a topic intersect a strange experience from the career. I 593 00:43:18,719 --> 00:43:21,200 Speaker 1: started on with stuff you missed in History class a 594 00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:25,040 Speaker 1: decade ago, and then included is my tithe to the 595 00:43:25,080 --> 00:43:28,240 Speaker 1: stuff you missed in History class? Hosts attached to the email, 596 00:43:28,480 --> 00:43:29,960 Speaker 1: I don't have pets in my own right now, so 597 00:43:30,040 --> 00:43:32,120 Speaker 1: I'm sending the one I rescued with my stepdad for 598 00:43:32,239 --> 00:43:36,000 Speaker 1: my mom after our Alaskan malamute Lucy, like the mischievous redhead, 599 00:43:36,040 --> 00:43:39,680 Speaker 1: passed away. Meet Casper the friendly Ghost for his white 600 00:43:39,760 --> 00:43:42,719 Speaker 1: face and calm attitude. He's a husky. We rescued from 601 00:43:42,719 --> 00:43:45,920 Speaker 1: the shelter in twenty fifteen. He has always perfectly quaffed, 602 00:43:46,200 --> 00:43:49,400 Speaker 1: looks resigned when I take too many picks, and obsessed 603 00:43:49,440 --> 00:43:52,480 Speaker 1: with his snowman squeaky toy. Mister Snowman came in a 604 00:43:52,520 --> 00:43:55,120 Speaker 1: package with tennis balls my mom bought me for Christmas, 605 00:43:55,239 --> 00:43:58,399 Speaker 1: not realizing it was a dog toy. Casper is iffy 606 00:43:58,520 --> 00:44:00,399 Speaker 1: on tennis balls, but it was love at first sight 607 00:44:00,440 --> 00:44:04,640 Speaker 1: with mister Snowman. Mister Snowman has since endured multiple surgeries, 608 00:44:04,719 --> 00:44:08,560 Speaker 1: with Casper worriedly tending his bedside when my mom restages 609 00:44:08,680 --> 00:44:12,120 Speaker 1: him now with sock grafts and stands watch outside the 610 00:44:12,200 --> 00:44:15,439 Speaker 1: washing machine at mister Snowman's bathtime. He is too cute 611 00:44:15,480 --> 00:44:18,120 Speaker 1: thanks to mercy. I have such a soft spot for 612 00:44:18,880 --> 00:44:23,160 Speaker 1: huskies and malamutes anyway, so this is all extra extra fabulous. 613 00:44:23,680 --> 00:44:27,600 Speaker 1: But this whole thing is really really interesting to me discussing, 614 00:44:27,960 --> 00:44:33,040 Speaker 1: you know, current takes on confessional privilege and when men 615 00:44:33,120 --> 00:44:37,279 Speaker 1: of clergy, which it sounds like would never ever betray it. 616 00:44:38,280 --> 00:44:40,640 Speaker 1: As we said at the time, you know, this was 617 00:44:40,719 --> 00:44:42,839 Speaker 1: operating in a state where there was no such laws, 618 00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:46,680 Speaker 1: so there wasn't the same level of guidance involving never 619 00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:50,800 Speaker 1: ever ever. Yeah, and we mentioned that he wrestled with 620 00:44:50,920 --> 00:44:53,440 Speaker 1: it and felt like it was his service, like it 621 00:44:53,600 --> 00:44:57,600 Speaker 1: was his duty to report it. It's very you know, 622 00:44:59,680 --> 00:45:01,960 Speaker 1: there two points of view on it, and I know 623 00:45:02,120 --> 00:45:04,200 Speaker 1: not everyone agrees on it, So it's an interesting one. 624 00:45:04,239 --> 00:45:07,719 Speaker 1: And I'm fascinated at the thought of having a bunch 625 00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:12,480 Speaker 1: of clergy discuss no. No, not even because this could 626 00:45:12,520 --> 00:45:15,440 Speaker 1: be considered divine intervention that put me at that scene. 627 00:45:15,520 --> 00:45:18,400 Speaker 1: I had never thought about anything from that perspective, So 628 00:45:18,520 --> 00:45:21,640 Speaker 1: that's really interesting. Rachel, thank you. This was eye opening. Yeah. 629 00:45:21,680 --> 00:45:26,720 Speaker 1: There have also been states that have been discussing various 630 00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:31,520 Speaker 1: laws to sort of carve out like mandated reporter type roles, 631 00:45:32,320 --> 00:45:37,839 Speaker 1: so if you if someone confesses something that suggests there's 632 00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:42,279 Speaker 1: going to be like harm done to a minor, and 633 00:45:42,880 --> 00:45:45,920 Speaker 1: various states looking to pass laws involving that, which I 634 00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:49,000 Speaker 1: saw articles about literally the day before that episode of 635 00:45:49,040 --> 00:45:51,120 Speaker 1: the podcast came out, you know, weeks after we had 636 00:45:51,160 --> 00:45:58,000 Speaker 1: actually recorded it, and similarly incredibly heated opinions on the 637 00:45:58,080 --> 00:46:02,680 Speaker 1: subject from the people involved. Yeah. Yeah, it's you know, 638 00:46:02,800 --> 00:46:06,000 Speaker 1: it's one of those things that I think will always 639 00:46:06,960 --> 00:46:08,880 Speaker 1: I don't want to invoke Star Wars, but it has 640 00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:11,920 Speaker 1: such a good moment where in the Attack of the 641 00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:16,200 Speaker 1: Clones when Anakin and Padmey are discussing how legislation works, 642 00:46:16,600 --> 00:46:20,040 Speaker 1: and he's like, really smart, really smart people should make 643 00:46:20,080 --> 00:46:22,359 Speaker 1: the decisions about how laws work. And she's like, that's 644 00:46:22,520 --> 00:46:26,960 Speaker 1: that's how it works. But not everybody agrees, right, I'm like, yes, 645 00:46:27,120 --> 00:46:30,200 Speaker 1: so simple. This explains so many problems that we all 646 00:46:30,719 --> 00:46:33,400 Speaker 1: deal with all the time, but just very simply in 647 00:46:33,440 --> 00:46:37,120 Speaker 1: a Star Wars movie. I'm I'm interested to see how 648 00:46:37,280 --> 00:46:41,000 Speaker 1: that debate goes on in the meantime. If you would 649 00:46:41,040 --> 00:46:43,080 Speaker 1: like to email us, you can do so at History 650 00:46:43,160 --> 00:46:46,120 Speaker 1: Podcasts at iHeartRadio dot com. You can also find us 651 00:46:46,160 --> 00:46:48,640 Speaker 1: on social media as Missed in History, and if you 652 00:46:48,680 --> 00:46:50,200 Speaker 1: would like to subscribe, you can do that on the 653 00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:53,360 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app or anywhere you listen to your favorite podcasts. 654 00:46:58,600 --> 00:47:01,720 Speaker 1: Stuff you Missed in History Class is the production of iHeartRadio. 655 00:47:02,080 --> 00:47:06,640 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 656 00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:08,800 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.