1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:01,599 Speaker 1: Hey, guys, Saga and Crystal here. 2 00:00:01,680 --> 00:00:05,200 Speaker 2: Independent media just played a truly massive role in this election, 3 00:00:05,360 --> 00:00:07,840 Speaker 2: and we are so excited about what that means for 4 00:00:07,880 --> 00:00:08,720 Speaker 2: the future of this show. 5 00:00:08,880 --> 00:00:10,760 Speaker 3: This is the only place where you can find honest 6 00:00:10,760 --> 00:00:13,239 Speaker 3: perspectives from the left and the right that simply does 7 00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:14,680 Speaker 3: not exist anywhere else. 8 00:00:14,760 --> 00:00:17,080 Speaker 2: So if that is something that's important to you, please 9 00:00:17,120 --> 00:00:19,599 Speaker 2: go to Breakingpoints dot com. Become a member today and 10 00:00:19,640 --> 00:00:22,800 Speaker 2: you'll get access to our full shows, unedited, ad free, 11 00:00:22,800 --> 00:00:25,600 Speaker 2: and all put together for you every morning in your inbox. 12 00:00:25,680 --> 00:00:27,560 Speaker 3: We need your help to build the future of independent 13 00:00:27,560 --> 00:00:29,920 Speaker 3: news media and we hope to see you at Breakingpoints 14 00:00:29,960 --> 00:00:33,760 Speaker 3: dot com. 15 00:00:33,800 --> 00:00:36,800 Speaker 2: All right, guys, we've been following some significant unrest in 16 00:00:37,080 --> 00:00:40,519 Speaker 2: Mexico after the killing of a topcartel leader. We can 17 00:00:40,520 --> 00:00:44,200 Speaker 2: put this article up on the screen from the Associated Press. 18 00:00:45,080 --> 00:00:49,519 Speaker 2: They say here that Mexican Army kills leader of powerful 19 00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:53,040 Speaker 2: Hollisco New Generation cartel during operation to capture him. The 20 00:00:53,080 --> 00:00:56,319 Speaker 2: Mexican Army called the leader of that cartel, Elmencho he's 21 00:00:56,360 --> 00:00:59,520 Speaker 2: known as on Sunday, decapitating what had become Mexico's most 22 00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:03,680 Speaker 2: powerful drug cartel and thrusting swaws of the nation into chaos. 23 00:01:04,240 --> 00:01:06,720 Speaker 2: Cars burned out by cartel members blocked roads more than 24 00:01:06,720 --> 00:01:09,200 Speaker 2: two hundred and fifty points in twenty Mexican states. Authority 25 00:01:09,280 --> 00:01:13,880 Speaker 2: said and left smoke billowing into the air. Olisco's capital, Guadalajara, 26 00:01:13,920 --> 00:01:16,200 Speaker 2: was turned into a ghost town Sunday night as civilians 27 00:01:16,280 --> 00:01:18,959 Speaker 2: hunkered down. School was canceled Monday in several states, and 28 00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:22,440 Speaker 2: authorities in a variety of states reported at least fourteen dead, 29 00:01:22,520 --> 00:01:26,600 Speaker 2: including seven National Guard troops. Joining us to discuss these 30 00:01:26,640 --> 00:01:30,760 Speaker 2: developments is the Latin America Desk head of drop Site News, 31 00:01:30,840 --> 00:01:32,920 Speaker 2: Jose Luis Granados saiha. 32 00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:35,240 Speaker 4: Great to see Jose, Good to see you. See you again, Hi. 33 00:01:36,080 --> 00:01:38,240 Speaker 2: So we can put some of these images up on 34 00:01:38,319 --> 00:01:41,360 Speaker 2: the screen of you know, cars burning, you can see 35 00:01:41,440 --> 00:01:43,480 Speaker 2: fires all over the place, and guys, you can just 36 00:01:43,560 --> 00:01:46,639 Speaker 2: let this run. As Jose brings us up to speed. 37 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:50,560 Speaker 2: You'll just give us a sense of what the mood 38 00:01:50,680 --> 00:01:53,360 Speaker 2: is there in Mexico and how significant of a development 39 00:01:53,400 --> 00:01:53,760 Speaker 2: this is. 40 00:01:54,800 --> 00:01:57,200 Speaker 4: You know, in terms of how significant is this is 41 00:01:57,280 --> 00:02:01,920 Speaker 4: probably the biggest fish they could possibly catch. Nemesio Sea Mencho, 42 00:02:02,040 --> 00:02:04,840 Speaker 4: as he's more commonly known, was the major player when 43 00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:07,160 Speaker 4: it came to organized crime here. It can't be overstated 44 00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:11,520 Speaker 4: how significant, how big of an impact against organized crime 45 00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:14,960 Speaker 4: groups this well capture and then his subsequent death really 46 00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:17,160 Speaker 4: is for Mexico. And that's why we saw sort of 47 00:02:17,520 --> 00:02:20,360 Speaker 4: this response in the streets from his associates in these 48 00:02:20,440 --> 00:02:26,680 Speaker 4: organized crime groups Carteljlisco, cj NNG or Las Cuatro Letras, 49 00:02:26,720 --> 00:02:29,440 Speaker 4: the four letters. They have various names. They're kind of 50 00:02:29,840 --> 00:02:32,840 Speaker 4: they are the largest organized crime group here, the most powerful, 51 00:02:32,880 --> 00:02:36,040 Speaker 4: the most well connected. It's said that they were rivaling, 52 00:02:36,240 --> 00:02:39,480 Speaker 4: you know, Intertransnational Corporation in terms of their reach and 53 00:02:39,600 --> 00:02:43,280 Speaker 4: their international business connections. What was interesting about them is 54 00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:45,760 Speaker 4: that they sort of were, in a way a kind 55 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:48,360 Speaker 4: of a new manifestation of organized crime groups. I think 56 00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:50,920 Speaker 4: a lot of times people think of the cartels you 57 00:02:50,960 --> 00:02:51,520 Speaker 4: know of. 58 00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:56,280 Speaker 5: You know, Sinaloa, El Chapel, right, Felix Ariano, all of 59 00:02:56,320 --> 00:02:59,320 Speaker 5: these different groups from you know, the series Netflix that 60 00:02:59,360 --> 00:03:02,200 Speaker 5: covered the the Mexican organized crime situation. 61 00:03:02,560 --> 00:03:04,280 Speaker 4: This one was a little bit different in that they 62 00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:08,520 Speaker 4: were able to fill a vacuum incredibly quickly, grow incredibly quickly. 63 00:03:08,560 --> 00:03:11,400 Speaker 4: And that's because they operated sort of learning the lessons 64 00:03:11,400 --> 00:03:14,440 Speaker 4: of the previous cartel groups of not necessarily kind of 65 00:03:14,480 --> 00:03:17,920 Speaker 4: wanting to virtual vertically integrate everything. They were kind of 66 00:03:17,919 --> 00:03:22,040 Speaker 4: almost like a franchise model, where you know, people kind 67 00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:26,079 Speaker 4: of pay tribute to the central organization without necessarily being 68 00:03:26,080 --> 00:03:28,519 Speaker 4: tied to it. And that's generally true of organized crime groups. 69 00:03:28,639 --> 00:03:30,880 Speaker 4: They're far less organized that I think people think. 70 00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:32,320 Speaker 1: But this is of course huge. 71 00:03:32,360 --> 00:03:34,560 Speaker 4: I mean, he was the top of this organized crime group. 72 00:03:34,600 --> 00:03:37,800 Speaker 4: They had presence quite literally in every corner of this country, 73 00:03:37,920 --> 00:03:41,200 Speaker 4: obviously mostly concentrated in the states where they were most active, 74 00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:43,520 Speaker 4: like Kalisco, and that's where we saw the most violence. 75 00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:46,080 Speaker 4: And I think to explain that, obviously we all saw 76 00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:49,080 Speaker 4: these scenes of you know, billowing cars and roads being blocked, 77 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:52,120 Speaker 4: and of course, you know those are disturbing to see, 78 00:03:52,240 --> 00:03:54,360 Speaker 4: but they shouldn't be overstated. You know, the article that 79 00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:56,880 Speaker 4: you read to introduce this piece talked about the chaos 80 00:03:56,880 --> 00:03:59,480 Speaker 4: and things like that. But that's precisely what these groups 81 00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:01,920 Speaker 4: wanted to do. So they had their leader captured, and 82 00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:04,160 Speaker 4: so as an act of protest you can think of, 83 00:04:04,480 --> 00:04:07,680 Speaker 4: they go and unleash these kinds of acts of violence, 84 00:04:07,720 --> 00:04:10,760 Speaker 4: these acts of intimidation in a sense, to send a 85 00:04:10,760 --> 00:04:13,000 Speaker 4: message to say they're unhappy with what just happened to 86 00:04:13,040 --> 00:04:16,040 Speaker 4: deliver a message to the federal government, the Mexican government, 87 00:04:16,040 --> 00:04:19,400 Speaker 4: which was responsible for this operation, but also to show 88 00:04:19,640 --> 00:04:22,200 Speaker 4: who's the strong actor, because now there's going to be, 89 00:04:22,520 --> 00:04:24,840 Speaker 4: as always happens when you take out the top, when 90 00:04:24,880 --> 00:04:27,719 Speaker 4: you decapitate these organizations, a bit of a competition in 91 00:04:27,800 --> 00:04:30,440 Speaker 4: terms of who's going to now try to compete to 92 00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:32,680 Speaker 4: become the new head of the organization. And what we 93 00:04:32,720 --> 00:04:35,799 Speaker 4: saw yesterday in a sense is that is people trying 94 00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:37,960 Speaker 4: to flex their own muscle to show, Look how many 95 00:04:37,960 --> 00:04:40,520 Speaker 4: men I can mobilize, Look how much you know unrest 96 00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:42,760 Speaker 4: I can cause I'm the one who should really rise. 97 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:44,280 Speaker 1: Up to be the next leader of this organization. 98 00:04:44,360 --> 00:04:47,200 Speaker 3: That's very interesting. I didn't realize that, Jose as I 99 00:04:47,279 --> 00:04:49,320 Speaker 3: understand it as well. Part of the reason that they 100 00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:52,040 Speaker 3: do this is to inflict pain on the Mexican government. 101 00:04:52,160 --> 00:04:54,880 Speaker 3: Not only is it bad publicity, but you know, there's 102 00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:57,960 Speaker 3: a significant number of US tourists who are in the 103 00:04:58,040 --> 00:05:00,320 Speaker 3: region who are you know, some of them were altering 104 00:05:00,360 --> 00:05:02,800 Speaker 3: in place in their hotels, and obviously you know these 105 00:05:02,800 --> 00:05:06,720 Speaker 3: things go viral or impact their tourism industry. How does 106 00:05:06,760 --> 00:05:10,560 Speaker 3: the Mexican government come to the conclusion to carry out 107 00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:12,839 Speaker 3: something like this, because we've seen in the past, you know, 108 00:05:12,880 --> 00:05:15,320 Speaker 3: with the Chapitos, that famous raid and there was a 109 00:05:15,400 --> 00:05:18,320 Speaker 3: massive gunfight and people were you know, there were bullets 110 00:05:18,320 --> 00:05:21,200 Speaker 3: spraying in the streets and all of that. So they 111 00:05:21,320 --> 00:05:23,800 Speaker 3: know this is going to happen. How do they come 112 00:05:23,839 --> 00:05:26,560 Speaker 3: to the conclusion ultimately to conduct a raid like this? 113 00:05:27,080 --> 00:05:30,160 Speaker 4: So here in Mexico we have a National Security Cabinet, 114 00:05:30,320 --> 00:05:32,640 Speaker 4: and that is essentially the body that's tess with making 115 00:05:32,680 --> 00:05:36,360 Speaker 4: these difficult decisions. And part of the kind of calculation 116 00:05:36,600 --> 00:05:38,960 Speaker 4: is that, in fact, under the previous government, now the 117 00:05:39,120 --> 00:05:42,240 Speaker 4: Shinbam's predecessor, Nopus Obrador, there was that famous case where 118 00:05:42,240 --> 00:05:45,800 Speaker 4: one of n Champo's sons was ultimately let go because 119 00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:48,839 Speaker 4: they made the evaluation that the kind of violence that 120 00:05:48,920 --> 00:05:51,400 Speaker 4: this was going to unleash was basically not worth it. 121 00:05:51,440 --> 00:05:54,400 Speaker 4: You know, there was a calculation link should we proceed 122 00:05:54,440 --> 00:05:57,640 Speaker 4: with his detention and allow them to unleash the kind 123 00:05:57,680 --> 00:05:59,840 Speaker 4: of violence that we expect them to, or should we 124 00:05:59,880 --> 00:06:01,640 Speaker 4: come to walk away and find a better moment for this. 125 00:06:02,000 --> 00:06:04,599 Speaker 4: I think what's important about this one is that there's 126 00:06:04,640 --> 00:06:07,479 Speaker 4: a couple of things. One there was important intelligence that 127 00:06:07,560 --> 00:06:09,800 Speaker 4: was shared from the United States. Apparently both the US 128 00:06:09,880 --> 00:06:12,040 Speaker 4: government the Mexican government have now said as much that 129 00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:15,400 Speaker 4: there was key intelligence here. It sounds like they knew 130 00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:17,280 Speaker 4: where he was, that this was a good chance to 131 00:06:17,320 --> 00:06:20,040 Speaker 4: grab him where he wasn't being heavily protected, where they 132 00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:22,440 Speaker 4: were less able to kind of mobilize, and so it 133 00:06:22,520 --> 00:06:24,680 Speaker 4: seems that that's the reason they took the decision. This 134 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:26,839 Speaker 4: was a good moment, they had good intelligence, they could 135 00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:28,920 Speaker 4: act on it. But the other one was also kind 136 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:31,920 Speaker 4: of understanding that they needed it to strike against these 137 00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:33,960 Speaker 4: organized crime groups. They needed to I think, in a 138 00:06:33,960 --> 00:06:37,000 Speaker 4: lot of ways send a message, not just to the 139 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:40,080 Speaker 4: organized crimes groups themselves, to say that we're serious about 140 00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:42,599 Speaker 4: going after you, that this is a different kind of 141 00:06:42,640 --> 00:06:46,440 Speaker 4: administration in terms of a much stronger, heavier hand when 142 00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:48,440 Speaker 4: it comes to these groups, but also a message to 143 00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:50,960 Speaker 4: Donald Trump to the White House to say you know 144 00:06:51,520 --> 00:06:53,600 Speaker 4: that right now, the debate that seems to be happening 145 00:06:54,080 --> 00:06:56,800 Speaker 4: in the United States is whether there should be unilateral 146 00:06:56,839 --> 00:06:59,520 Speaker 4: military action by the United States in Mexico. Mexico obviously 147 00:06:59,520 --> 00:07:01,560 Speaker 4: has said no, that's a redline for this government. They 148 00:07:01,560 --> 00:07:04,080 Speaker 4: would view it as a violation of sovereignty. But you 149 00:07:04,160 --> 00:07:06,800 Speaker 4: have to continually make that case because Donald Trump has 150 00:07:06,839 --> 00:07:09,800 Speaker 4: said on many occasions he wants to send troops into Mexico, 151 00:07:09,880 --> 00:07:12,880 Speaker 4: he wants to use drone strikes, and Mexican President Glaudias 152 00:07:12,880 --> 00:07:15,080 Speaker 4: Shambam has said, you can share intelligence, but when it 153 00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:17,520 Speaker 4: comes to military action, we conduct it because this is 154 00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:19,720 Speaker 4: our territory. And I think this is in a lot 155 00:07:19,760 --> 00:07:21,800 Speaker 4: of ways really good for the Mexican government in that 156 00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:24,920 Speaker 4: sense to say, look, share this information, we can act 157 00:07:24,960 --> 00:07:27,120 Speaker 4: on it, and we can take care of it. And obviously, 158 00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:30,680 Speaker 4: now the task is to deal with the fallout, to 159 00:07:30,720 --> 00:07:34,120 Speaker 4: deal with these incidents. Although they've largely been under control. 160 00:07:34,360 --> 00:07:36,680 Speaker 4: As of yesterday, ninety percent of all the roadblocks had 161 00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:39,360 Speaker 4: been stopped, had been kind of, you know, de established. 162 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:42,360 Speaker 4: But you know, this morning, Gladysheimmum's in her morning press 163 00:07:42,400 --> 00:07:45,480 Speaker 4: conference now and she's giving the message as we speak, 164 00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:47,880 Speaker 4: essentially giving the same thing that things are now fully 165 00:07:47,920 --> 00:07:48,440 Speaker 4: under control. 166 00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:51,400 Speaker 2: Sure is there a fear that you know, you're sort 167 00:07:51,400 --> 00:07:53,120 Speaker 2: of damned if you do, damned if you don't, if 168 00:07:53,120 --> 00:07:56,880 Speaker 2: you don't strike this cartel leader and take him out. 169 00:07:56,960 --> 00:07:59,240 Speaker 2: Then the US government says, see, they're not dealing with 170 00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:01,200 Speaker 2: the cartels. We have to go out and take you 171 00:08:01,240 --> 00:08:04,200 Speaker 2: in a lateral action. But then when you do take 172 00:08:04,240 --> 00:08:06,680 Speaker 2: out the cartile leader, it leads not just to these 173 00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:09,040 Speaker 2: flare ups, but the expectation is there probably will be 174 00:08:09,080 --> 00:08:12,120 Speaker 2: some sort of turf war and potential increased violence, and 175 00:08:12,160 --> 00:08:14,000 Speaker 2: then the US government can look at that. Trump can 176 00:08:14,040 --> 00:08:15,800 Speaker 2: look at that and say, see, look at all this 177 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:18,360 Speaker 2: escalating violence they need as we have to go in. 178 00:08:19,080 --> 00:08:21,400 Speaker 4: Yeah, and it's quite likely that there'll be some actors 179 00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:23,720 Speaker 4: who will make that kind of case and say, well, 180 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:26,680 Speaker 4: look look at everything that's happening. You don't have under control. 181 00:08:26,680 --> 00:08:29,960 Speaker 4: And that's actually why I think we saw online yesterday 182 00:08:30,120 --> 00:08:33,640 Speaker 4: just fake images, artificial intelligence. There was this image of 183 00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:36,400 Speaker 4: a plane on fire that was not real whatsoever. You know, 184 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:39,800 Speaker 4: somebody apparently triggered an alarm inside of the airport in 185 00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:42,120 Speaker 4: Gua la Dajada and that made some people panic, and 186 00:08:42,160 --> 00:08:45,280 Speaker 4: then somebody took that image and said, look, the commandos 187 00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:47,520 Speaker 4: from the organized crime groups have taken over the airport 188 00:08:47,640 --> 00:08:49,520 Speaker 4: because they want to sow this chaos. They want to 189 00:08:49,520 --> 00:08:52,160 Speaker 4: sow this kind of sense of a lack of control 190 00:08:52,200 --> 00:08:55,080 Speaker 4: in order to I think in one in one regard 191 00:08:55,160 --> 00:08:57,800 Speaker 4: try to support this argument that it's out of control 192 00:08:57,840 --> 00:09:00,120 Speaker 4: and the Mexican government can't handle it, but also to 193 00:09:00,559 --> 00:09:02,920 Speaker 4: try to I said at the beginning, to to send 194 00:09:02,920 --> 00:09:05,600 Speaker 4: this message that they are more powerful than perhaps people 195 00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:06,720 Speaker 4: account for. 196 00:09:06,920 --> 00:09:07,079 Speaker 1: Right. 197 00:09:07,559 --> 00:09:09,559 Speaker 4: And you know, I think on one of the reasons 198 00:09:09,559 --> 00:09:11,880 Speaker 4: they also acted yesterday is that there's very small windows 199 00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:14,360 Speaker 4: of opportunity. These are wildly actors. I mean, how many 200 00:09:14,360 --> 00:09:17,640 Speaker 4: times did El Chapo escape from custody? Right, it's only 201 00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:20,120 Speaker 4: because he's been extradited and it's more difficult for him 202 00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:23,000 Speaker 4: to be able to kind of engage in the bribery 203 00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:24,559 Speaker 4: that it takes to be able to get free, that 204 00:09:24,640 --> 00:09:27,160 Speaker 4: he's still in custody today. And so I think that 205 00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:30,120 Speaker 4: window they saw it as as a good one to act, 206 00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:33,280 Speaker 4: and yes, cognizant of the consequences in terms of what 207 00:09:33,320 --> 00:09:37,720 Speaker 4: will happen next. The case of is curious too, because 208 00:09:38,040 --> 00:09:40,720 Speaker 4: you know, for example, with the you know, the X 209 00:09:41,440 --> 00:09:43,400 Speaker 4: I don't know what to call it, kids, he wasn't extradite, 210 00:09:43,400 --> 00:09:46,600 Speaker 4: and the kidnapping of El Mayo, you know, that created 211 00:09:46,640 --> 00:09:49,920 Speaker 4: a lot of unrest as well, But I think that's 212 00:09:49,960 --> 00:09:54,160 Speaker 4: because there was already kind of a dispute internally between 213 00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:57,800 Speaker 4: rival factions inside of that cartel where you had the 214 00:09:57,880 --> 00:10:00,280 Speaker 4: Chapito's and the Maitos, and so that that's part of 215 00:10:00,280 --> 00:10:02,480 Speaker 4: why we saw so much more violence, and this one 216 00:10:02,679 --> 00:10:05,240 Speaker 4: it doesn't look like there's a natural successor a lot 217 00:10:05,280 --> 00:10:08,560 Speaker 4: of his closest associates and Mental's closest associates are either 218 00:10:08,760 --> 00:10:11,320 Speaker 4: dead or in jail, and so you know, his son 219 00:10:11,360 --> 00:10:15,520 Speaker 4: is already detained, his daughters are not that active, so 220 00:10:15,559 --> 00:10:17,760 Speaker 4: it's not clear who will take over. There's likely going 221 00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:20,640 Speaker 4: to be a lot of internal power disputes and they're 222 00:10:20,679 --> 00:10:22,959 Speaker 4: going to do it through violence, and so there it's 223 00:10:22,960 --> 00:10:25,920 Speaker 4: important to see in terms of what's the actual capacity 224 00:10:26,360 --> 00:10:29,240 Speaker 4: of the Mexican National Guard, the Mexican armed forces to 225 00:10:29,440 --> 00:10:32,800 Speaker 4: ensure security, particularly in these kinds of hot spots where 226 00:10:32,800 --> 00:10:36,000 Speaker 4: they are most active. That really is the major challenge today, Jose. 227 00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:40,960 Speaker 3: How does the Mexican government deal with the It's kind 228 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:42,840 Speaker 3: of a maybe too broad of a question, but with 229 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:46,720 Speaker 3: US security, so like, for example, you've had the US 230 00:10:46,800 --> 00:10:49,960 Speaker 3: intelligence sharing that happened that led to this red but 231 00:10:50,040 --> 00:10:52,480 Speaker 3: we also saw earlier there was an incident. Maybe you 232 00:10:52,520 --> 00:10:56,720 Speaker 3: can tell us about where a drug dealer international fugitive 233 00:10:56,760 --> 00:10:59,040 Speaker 3: was seized by the United States, and cash Betel took 234 00:10:59,080 --> 00:11:01,440 Speaker 3: credit for it, but the Mexicans were like, hey man, 235 00:11:01,520 --> 00:11:03,320 Speaker 3: you weren't supposed to talk about that, Like, we don't 236 00:11:03,360 --> 00:11:06,440 Speaker 3: like to acknowledge how much we share back and forth. 237 00:11:07,200 --> 00:11:11,160 Speaker 3: Does how does a Mexican government handle that domestically? Like 238 00:11:11,240 --> 00:11:14,760 Speaker 3: why are they so reticent to admit US cooperation to 239 00:11:14,880 --> 00:11:17,640 Speaker 3: the Mexican public? Is there a political dynamic I'm missing? 240 00:11:17,679 --> 00:11:18,439 Speaker 3: How does that work? 241 00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:19,520 Speaker 1: Yeah? 242 00:11:19,559 --> 00:11:23,200 Speaker 4: So the case you're referred to as this Canadian apparently 243 00:11:23,200 --> 00:11:26,160 Speaker 4: an Olympic athlete who was accused of being you know, 244 00:11:26,280 --> 00:11:29,040 Speaker 4: well positioned an important player in organized crimes. And yeah, 245 00:11:29,080 --> 00:11:32,439 Speaker 4: it's still actually not clear exactly whether or not he 246 00:11:32,520 --> 00:11:34,880 Speaker 4: turned himself in, whether it was an operation, was it 247 00:11:34,880 --> 00:11:38,880 Speaker 4: done by Mexican forces, did the FBI participate directly? That 248 00:11:38,920 --> 00:11:42,760 Speaker 4: would be extraordinary unusual. I have trouble believing cash Hotel 249 00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:45,360 Speaker 4: sometimes because we know he has a pension for wanting 250 00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:47,880 Speaker 4: to tell his own story in his own way that 251 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:50,679 Speaker 4: kind of inflates his role in all of this. So 252 00:11:51,559 --> 00:11:53,840 Speaker 4: I would you know, be hesitant to believe to take 253 00:11:53,920 --> 00:11:57,000 Speaker 4: his you know, totally as believable. But are You're right, 254 00:11:57,080 --> 00:12:00,560 Speaker 4: there is a certain kind of reluctance on the Mexican 255 00:12:00,600 --> 00:12:02,480 Speaker 4: government to admit this, and a lot of that is 256 00:12:02,520 --> 00:12:05,840 Speaker 4: because of the nationalist sentiment. More and her political party 257 00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:09,280 Speaker 4: is a very Mexican nationalist movement. It's kind of one 258 00:12:09,280 --> 00:12:13,800 Speaker 4: of the pillars of their political ideology. And it is seen, 259 00:12:13,840 --> 00:12:19,199 Speaker 4: as you know, almost as offensive that we would need 260 00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:21,360 Speaker 4: the support of the United States for all of this. Right, 261 00:12:21,480 --> 00:12:24,120 Speaker 4: That's why it's such a hard line to not permit 262 00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:26,720 Speaker 4: unilateral military action by the United States or even the 263 00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:30,319 Speaker 4: presence of US troops in actual operations. They are Uria's 264 00:12:30,320 --> 00:12:32,800 Speaker 4: troops here for trainings when was recently approved by the 265 00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:36,640 Speaker 4: Mexican Senate, for example. So there's a there's a dislike 266 00:12:36,720 --> 00:12:40,440 Speaker 4: for it amongst the population, and I think because people 267 00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:42,280 Speaker 4: are worried that it would be a super slope. Right, 268 00:12:42,360 --> 00:12:45,760 Speaker 4: How do US entanglements abroad always begin. It always starts 269 00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:48,160 Speaker 4: with that, with training, with advice. Oh, well, we should 270 00:12:48,280 --> 00:12:50,760 Speaker 4: use some information. But you are right to point out 271 00:12:50,760 --> 00:12:53,720 Speaker 4: that there's an extraordinary amount of information sharing, in fact, 272 00:12:53,840 --> 00:12:57,120 Speaker 4: more than we probably know. Gladys Sheinbaum and Donald Trump 273 00:12:57,120 --> 00:12:59,240 Speaker 4: apparently had more than a dozen phone calls. But we 274 00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:01,280 Speaker 4: only really know that details of a handful of them. 275 00:13:01,400 --> 00:13:03,920 Speaker 4: So they're obviously high level negotiations. And that's how the 276 00:13:03,920 --> 00:13:06,560 Speaker 4: Mexican government likes to do things, I think, particularly with 277 00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:09,280 Speaker 4: the administration we have in the United States now, where 278 00:13:09,520 --> 00:13:12,000 Speaker 4: you know, they are boastful and they like to, you know, 279 00:13:12,160 --> 00:13:15,040 Speaker 4: stretch the truth, to be polite about it, right, And 280 00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:18,040 Speaker 4: so she's like I often, she says, I often don't 281 00:13:18,080 --> 00:13:20,520 Speaker 4: like to respond to whatever his public statements he makes. 282 00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:22,959 Speaker 4: We have our conversations. They happen at the table, they 283 00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:25,280 Speaker 4: happen behind closed doors. That's what's actually important in the 284 00:13:25,320 --> 00:13:26,440 Speaker 4: bilateral relationship. 285 00:13:26,559 --> 00:13:26,920 Speaker 1: Got it? 286 00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:29,640 Speaker 2: And how did most Mexicans feel about how Shinbaum is 287 00:13:29,720 --> 00:13:31,600 Speaker 2: navigating the relationship with the US. 288 00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:35,160 Speaker 4: Well, I think they would be feel encouraged. I think 289 00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:38,080 Speaker 4: they are feel very positive about it. She has extraordinarily 290 00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:41,040 Speaker 4: high approval ratings. They oscillate between seventy and eighty percent. 291 00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:44,720 Speaker 4: I mean the kinds of approval ratings people are unheard 292 00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:47,040 Speaker 4: of in most parts of the world, and part of it, 293 00:13:47,160 --> 00:13:49,960 Speaker 4: you know, one of the places where she does receive criticism, 294 00:13:50,040 --> 00:13:52,160 Speaker 4: where people feel like more needs to be done, is 295 00:13:52,160 --> 00:13:56,199 Speaker 4: precisely aroun of security under the previous administration of Lopos Obradorda, 296 00:13:56,200 --> 00:13:59,319 Speaker 4: there was a pretty major shift in the security strategy 297 00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:01,640 Speaker 4: where they went from an all out war, you know, 298 00:14:01,640 --> 00:14:04,280 Speaker 4: they stopped talking about war, they stopped talking about, you know, 299 00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:08,880 Speaker 4: the war against the cartels, and instead started focusing more 300 00:14:08,920 --> 00:14:14,240 Speaker 4: on investigation prevention above all, this philosophy of investing in 301 00:14:14,320 --> 00:14:16,720 Speaker 4: communities and in young people to try to dissuade them 302 00:14:16,760 --> 00:14:18,760 Speaker 4: from organized crimeums. And I think in a lot of 303 00:14:18,800 --> 00:14:23,080 Speaker 4: ways it was affected. But we're also dealing with really violent, 304 00:14:23,480 --> 00:14:27,960 Speaker 4: heavily armed, and extremely well funded organizations where social investment 305 00:14:28,040 --> 00:14:29,760 Speaker 4: is not going to be enough, right, And I do 306 00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:32,920 Speaker 4: think that with Glaudy Scheinbaum, and she probably wouldn't say 307 00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:35,120 Speaker 4: as much so as to not seem as if she's 308 00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:39,160 Speaker 4: disagreeing with her predecessor because of the important place he 309 00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:41,920 Speaker 4: occupies in the kind of political imaginary in this country. 310 00:14:42,040 --> 00:14:44,680 Speaker 4: But I do think has taken a far more aggressive 311 00:14:44,720 --> 00:14:47,920 Speaker 4: approach of wanting to go after these major figures of 312 00:14:48,120 --> 00:14:51,160 Speaker 4: I think part of it is naturally due to the 313 00:14:51,160 --> 00:14:53,360 Speaker 4: pressure of the United States to kind of, you know, 314 00:14:53,760 --> 00:14:57,240 Speaker 4: have more things to show off in terms of successes. 315 00:14:58,080 --> 00:15:00,000 Speaker 4: But I do think that a lot of people are 316 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:05,160 Speaker 4: are feeling reassured, you know, a feeling like actions are 317 00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:08,480 Speaker 4: being done and that steps are being taken to attend 318 00:15:08,480 --> 00:15:09,800 Speaker 4: to the kind of quality. 319 00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:10,160 Speaker 1: Of life things. 320 00:15:10,560 --> 00:15:12,560 Speaker 4: You know, organized crime grofts have been active here in 321 00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:15,560 Speaker 4: this country for decades, right, but it's sort of their 322 00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:19,040 Speaker 4: their interventions there. They're the way that they actually affect 323 00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:20,800 Speaker 4: the day to day of people that really kind of 324 00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:24,160 Speaker 4: undermines their confidence and the ability the state to handle this. 325 00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:24,960 Speaker 1: Right, So, the. 326 00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:28,760 Speaker 4: Kidnappings, the extortion, all of that, actually under her security 327 00:15:28,840 --> 00:15:32,240 Speaker 4: chief or Madragracia Hartfuch, who incidentally was once a target 328 00:15:32,280 --> 00:15:35,600 Speaker 4: of the very man who was killed yesterday, has been 329 00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:39,320 Speaker 4: far more on investigation and actually you know, going after 330 00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:41,960 Speaker 4: the money that provides them the ability to engage in 331 00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:44,400 Speaker 4: all of this. And you know, we're seeing a very 332 00:15:44,440 --> 00:15:48,080 Speaker 4: slight increase I think in the approval ratings when it 333 00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:50,800 Speaker 4: comes to security here in Mexico because of that small 334 00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:53,600 Speaker 4: shift but important shift in her security strategy. 335 00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:54,480 Speaker 1: So interesting. 336 00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:57,280 Speaker 2: One more question I have for you on a somewhat 337 00:15:57,280 --> 00:15:59,240 Speaker 2: separate note, and I asked the same question of Professor 338 00:15:59,320 --> 00:16:02,440 Speaker 2: Jeffrey Sachs, who we had on a bit earlier, and 339 00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:04,440 Speaker 2: this is with regard to Cuba. I'm sure you saw 340 00:16:04,480 --> 00:16:07,160 Speaker 2: Supreme Court struck down Trump's ability to levy tariffs, you know, 341 00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:10,080 Speaker 2: latterly using the AIPA authority. He had used this to 342 00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:13,480 Speaker 2: threaten Mexico and to threaten shine Bomb to try to 343 00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:17,160 Speaker 2: enforce this illegal oil embargo with Cuba. Do you think 344 00:16:17,200 --> 00:16:20,200 Speaker 2: that that decision changes the calculus at all for the 345 00:16:20,240 --> 00:16:21,240 Speaker 2: Shinebomb government? 346 00:16:22,120 --> 00:16:24,120 Speaker 4: Well, it looks like Trump is going to go forward 347 00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:27,120 Speaker 4: with it no matter what. And you know, Mexico has 348 00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:30,040 Speaker 4: been threatened with tariffs on half a dozen occasions and 349 00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:32,640 Speaker 4: has been able to talk their way out of it 350 00:16:32,680 --> 00:16:34,960 Speaker 4: almost every single time, even this most recent one where 351 00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:37,040 Speaker 4: he announced these kind of across the board tariffs on 352 00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:40,840 Speaker 4: every country once again. Countries, Canada, Mexico and that's part 353 00:16:40,840 --> 00:16:43,480 Speaker 4: of the USMCA are not are exempt from it. And 354 00:16:43,560 --> 00:16:46,520 Speaker 4: so the thing about this one, in particular, the one 355 00:16:46,520 --> 00:16:49,440 Speaker 4: about Cuba, is that my reading of it, it was 356 00:16:50,120 --> 00:16:54,720 Speaker 4: primarily addressed to Mexico. Mexico, stopped sending your oil to Cuba, 357 00:16:54,840 --> 00:16:56,960 Speaker 4: or We're going to impose this tariff on you. And 358 00:16:57,040 --> 00:16:59,520 Speaker 4: I think the fact that we saw the government respond 359 00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:04,960 Speaker 4: and suspended shipments tells us that in those closed doors negotiations. 360 00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:07,840 Speaker 4: There was definitely a very clear threat to say that 361 00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:09,679 Speaker 4: this one's serious. You're not gonna be able to talk 362 00:17:09,680 --> 00:17:11,720 Speaker 4: your way out of this one, that we want to 363 00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:15,000 Speaker 4: choke off the supply of oil to Cuba, and so 364 00:17:15,280 --> 00:17:17,320 Speaker 4: you better play ball. And that's why we've seen them 365 00:17:17,359 --> 00:17:19,720 Speaker 4: suspended because I think, you know, there's a lot of 366 00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:22,199 Speaker 4: voices out there who are saying, well, why don't they 367 00:17:22,240 --> 00:17:24,320 Speaker 4: just break the blockade, right, why don't they just kind 368 00:17:24,320 --> 00:17:27,000 Speaker 4: of challenge colls bluff? You know, the United States is 369 00:17:27,040 --> 00:17:30,720 Speaker 4: having some tricky economics numbers coming published out now, not 370 00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:32,720 Speaker 4: less job creation, all of that. Can they really afford 371 00:17:32,760 --> 00:17:34,479 Speaker 4: to put a tariff on its number one trading partner? 372 00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:36,600 Speaker 4: And I think they would the end, I think they've 373 00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:39,560 Speaker 4: transmitted that message to the Mexican government that this is serious, 374 00:17:39,560 --> 00:17:41,720 Speaker 4: and so the only way out of this for the 375 00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:45,160 Speaker 4: Mexican government is through negotiation, some kind of diplomatic breakthrough 376 00:17:45,359 --> 00:17:48,680 Speaker 4: to convince them that if they don't allow Mexico or 377 00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:50,919 Speaker 4: any other country to provide oil, then they're going to 378 00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:53,760 Speaker 4: produce a massive humanitarian crisis, which itself is going to 379 00:17:53,760 --> 00:17:56,160 Speaker 4: produce a huge refugee crisis, which is going to land 380 00:17:56,160 --> 00:17:58,879 Speaker 4: on your doorstep, United States. So I think that's the 381 00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:00,960 Speaker 4: kind of angle that they been pushing for, and it 382 00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:03,480 Speaker 4: seems to be working. There seems to be your rumors 383 00:18:03,520 --> 00:18:06,240 Speaker 4: of at least setting some oil come in so that 384 00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:10,560 Speaker 4: the situation doesn't become such a big problem that we see, 385 00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:14,000 Speaker 4: you know, millions of Cubans trying to leave the island 386 00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:17,360 Speaker 4: because if they get no oil, we're talking about basically 387 00:18:17,359 --> 00:18:20,920 Speaker 4: the collapse of society, right, you know, nothing works without energy, 388 00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:23,960 Speaker 4: there's no food, there's no hospitals, there's no schools. I mean, 389 00:18:24,119 --> 00:18:27,240 Speaker 4: it'll be a nightmare scenario for the Cuban people, which 390 00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:30,080 Speaker 4: would absolutely produce a refugee crisis in the region and 391 00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:32,919 Speaker 4: for the United States. And I don't think Marco Rubio 392 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:35,320 Speaker 4: Stephen Miller want to be tagged with that to say 393 00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:37,720 Speaker 4: you're the reason there's a new migrants crisis here in 394 00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:38,399 Speaker 4: the United States. 395 00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:41,960 Speaker 2: Good point, we will say, Jose thank you so much. 396 00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:43,320 Speaker 2: Great to have your analysis. 397 00:18:43,520 --> 00:18:45,200 Speaker 4: No, thank you very much for inviting me. We'll see 398 00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:45,720 Speaker 4: you next Tore. 399 00:18:48,640 --> 00:18:50,920 Speaker 2: All right, guys, you know we have been tracking closely 400 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:54,040 Speaker 2: here some of the local pushback against data centers being 401 00:18:54,080 --> 00:18:57,120 Speaker 2: located in communities across the country, and we are very 402 00:18:57,119 --> 00:18:59,840 Speaker 2: fortunate to be joined this morning by a grassroots act 403 00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:04,000 Speaker 2: who has had great success fighting and stopping a data 404 00:19:04,040 --> 00:19:06,879 Speaker 2: center in New Jersey. So Charlie Cradeville is a Central 405 00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:09,560 Speaker 2: Jersey organizer with Food and Water Watch. He's the founder 406 00:19:09,560 --> 00:19:12,520 Speaker 2: and editor of New Brunswick Today, community news outlet that 407 00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:15,159 Speaker 2: covers the city of New Brunswick, New Jersey, and he 408 00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:18,120 Speaker 2: just led the successful and viral, I might add, campaign 409 00:19:18,280 --> 00:19:20,760 Speaker 2: to kill amsat Capital Management's plan to build a new 410 00:19:20,840 --> 00:19:23,800 Speaker 2: twenty seven thousand square foot data center near homes and 411 00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:25,080 Speaker 2: businesses last week. 412 00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:25,880 Speaker 1: Charlie, welcome. 413 00:19:25,920 --> 00:19:26,920 Speaker 2: It's a pleasure to have you. 414 00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:29,440 Speaker 1: Sure, my pleasure A big fan you guys. 415 00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:32,720 Speaker 2: Thanks man, Yeah, of course. So let's go ahead and 416 00:19:33,119 --> 00:19:35,639 Speaker 2: play a little bit of this video and we can 417 00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:37,200 Speaker 2: we can take a look at this is some of 418 00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:42,320 Speaker 2: the celebration after your successful campaign to fight against this 419 00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:46,920 Speaker 2: data center. So celebrations in the street, you know, screaming 420 00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:49,840 Speaker 2: they we won, they canceled the data center. And then 421 00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:52,280 Speaker 2: you also had quite a viral post as well that 422 00:19:52,280 --> 00:19:54,200 Speaker 2: we can put up here. I mean, just amazingly viral. 423 00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:55,840 Speaker 2: I'm sure you had no idea the way this would 424 00:19:55,880 --> 00:19:59,840 Speaker 2: take off when you posted it and can see you know, 425 00:20:00,600 --> 00:20:03,800 Speaker 2: your picture here you say we won no data center 426 00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:07,159 Speaker 2: and they have to build a park. So take us 427 00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:10,560 Speaker 2: behind the scenes here. What did this organizing effort look 428 00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:13,679 Speaker 2: like and what was the type of coalition that you 429 00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:15,439 Speaker 2: all were able to build on the ground. 430 00:20:15,880 --> 00:20:19,600 Speaker 6: Yeah, there's something really special and unique about this campaign. 431 00:20:20,359 --> 00:20:22,600 Speaker 6: You know, being a local journalist, I tend all the 432 00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:24,960 Speaker 6: meetings and so I just happened to be at the 433 00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:28,240 Speaker 6: New Brunswick Planning Board meeting the night that they revealed 434 00:20:28,800 --> 00:20:35,000 Speaker 6: that this redevelopment plan included a data center that would 435 00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:37,400 Speaker 6: be right near homes and businesses. You know, we didn't 436 00:20:37,400 --> 00:20:39,119 Speaker 6: think of New Brunswick as a place where we might 437 00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:41,679 Speaker 6: be having these types of proposals, but sure enough, this 438 00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:44,840 Speaker 6: is the first time it's happened, and we really only 439 00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:48,359 Speaker 6: had nine days before the city Council was supposed to 440 00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:53,000 Speaker 6: approve it and finalize the redevelopment plan. And once it's 441 00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:55,600 Speaker 6: in there, I know from experience how hard it can 442 00:20:55,640 --> 00:20:58,360 Speaker 6: be to fight the site plans because they'll just say 443 00:20:58,359 --> 00:21:00,320 Speaker 6: it's a permitted use in the redevelopment plan. And it 444 00:21:00,359 --> 00:21:03,919 Speaker 6: was a really sloppy redevelopment plan with no limits or 445 00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:06,840 Speaker 6: controls on how big it is or how many there 446 00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:10,240 Speaker 6: could be. So yeah, they said a single twenty seven 447 00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:13,359 Speaker 6: thousand square foot data center verbally at this one meeting, 448 00:21:13,840 --> 00:21:17,280 Speaker 6: but there would be nothing stopping that private equity firm 449 00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:21,560 Speaker 6: from coming back with a much larger or a more 450 00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:26,920 Speaker 6: devastating proposal. And so yeah, I know work at Food 451 00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:30,160 Speaker 6: and Water Watch, where we have called for a nationwide 452 00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:34,280 Speaker 6: moratorium on large scale AI data centers, along with two 453 00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:36,520 Speaker 6: hundred and fifty other groups, And so I knew the 454 00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:39,720 Speaker 6: right people to contact, and I knew the right information 455 00:21:39,840 --> 00:21:43,040 Speaker 6: to share, and in those nine days, we were able 456 00:21:43,080 --> 00:21:47,600 Speaker 6: to build a coalition with students at Rutgers University, environmental 457 00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:51,240 Speaker 6: groups around the state, and the local people who were. 458 00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:52,280 Speaker 1: Going to be most affected. 459 00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:54,879 Speaker 6: So you know, one of those pictures, I'm there knocking 460 00:21:54,920 --> 00:21:57,600 Speaker 6: on doors in the Lincoln Gardens neighborhood to warn people 461 00:21:57,920 --> 00:22:00,520 Speaker 6: that this proposal's coming up and you need to call 462 00:22:00,560 --> 00:22:04,399 Speaker 6: your council president show up at this meeting. And you know, 463 00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:07,680 Speaker 6: I was expecting a big response, but certainly it exceeded 464 00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:09,199 Speaker 6: my wildest expectation. 465 00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:12,679 Speaker 3: Yeah, Charlie, don't you are enemy number one to a 466 00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:15,959 Speaker 3: lot of people in the tech industry, many of them. 467 00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:17,240 Speaker 3: I know some of these people. 468 00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:18,240 Speaker 1: They view you. 469 00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:21,000 Speaker 3: And your ILK as they would call it, as the 470 00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:24,760 Speaker 3: vanguard of the de growth movement, as people who refuse 471 00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:30,120 Speaker 3: to accept this forward progress and productivity in their lives. 472 00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:33,399 Speaker 3: Why were you even interested in blocking this data center 473 00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:34,200 Speaker 3: in the first place. 474 00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:39,040 Speaker 6: Well, I know how devastating they can be from some 475 00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:43,040 Speaker 6: of my colleagues around the nation that have helped fight 476 00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:45,320 Speaker 6: and in some cases have not been able to stop them. 477 00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:50,800 Speaker 6: So they can be devastating to ecosystems. The noise and 478 00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:55,440 Speaker 6: pollution can be harmful to humans, and it's the type 479 00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:58,440 Speaker 6: of development that it's the opposite of job creation. 480 00:22:58,600 --> 00:22:58,760 Speaker 1: Right. 481 00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:01,520 Speaker 6: Normally we are in this sort of like environmentalists versus 482 00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:07,840 Speaker 6: jobs dynamic. But these facilities have, you know, very few 483 00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:11,679 Speaker 6: permanent jobs, and in fact, the artificial intelligence industry is 484 00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:16,359 Speaker 6: famous for replacing human workers with computer technology and putting 485 00:23:16,359 --> 00:23:19,480 Speaker 6: people out of work. So those arguments don't carry water. 486 00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:22,840 Speaker 6: I have gotten a little taste of how strong the 487 00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:25,520 Speaker 6: opposition is, and I knew that it was something that 488 00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:28,160 Speaker 6: we needed to tap into here in New Brunswick because 489 00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:31,040 Speaker 6: at the end of the day, I wanted our city 490 00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:35,080 Speaker 6: Council to remember this moment next time a data center 491 00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:38,960 Speaker 6: is proposed, and they'll just say no because they understand 492 00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:41,480 Speaker 6: that the people don't want it, at least not here 493 00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:44,600 Speaker 6: in our city. And yeah, I think you know, food 494 00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:46,600 Speaker 6: and MORET and Watch is right to support a moratorium 495 00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:49,680 Speaker 6: on this stuff because otherwise we're going to be making 496 00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:52,080 Speaker 6: decisions that we're going to be locked into and we're 497 00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:52,959 Speaker 6: going to come to regret. 498 00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:56,880 Speaker 2: Let's put E four up on the screen here, because 499 00:23:57,160 --> 00:24:00,800 Speaker 2: your movement is part of a rising push, rising local 500 00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:05,160 Speaker 2: grassroots push against these data centers. This was a heat 501 00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:08,280 Speaker 2: map report from a last month which set a mid 502 00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:12,160 Speaker 2: rising local pushback US data centers. Data center cancelation surged 503 00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:14,760 Speaker 2: in twenty twenty five. A heat map pro review a 504 00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:17,960 Speaker 2: public record shows twenty five data centers scrub last year 505 00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:21,000 Speaker 2: after local pushback that was four times as many as 506 00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:23,360 Speaker 2: twenty twenty four. You know, I live in a rural 507 00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:26,080 Speaker 2: community in Virginia. Virginia has really been the you know, 508 00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:29,920 Speaker 2: the epicenter of these data center locations, and I've seen 509 00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:34,359 Speaker 2: the way that the awareness and activism around these data 510 00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:36,840 Speaker 2: centers has shifted just in the past couple of years 511 00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:40,200 Speaker 2: here as well. Why do you think that your success, 512 00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:44,240 Speaker 2: you know, really sort of tapped into a zeitgeist. Why 513 00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:47,119 Speaker 2: it was so important, why people found it so important. 514 00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:50,000 Speaker 2: What do you think the issues are that you're touching 515 00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:53,080 Speaker 2: on that are resonating really in a cross partisan and 516 00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:55,160 Speaker 2: cross ideological way as well. 517 00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:58,040 Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean in New Brunswick we have a lot 518 00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:00,600 Speaker 6: of development and redevelopment going on. I know there's a 519 00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:03,520 Speaker 6: lot of frustration over it, but it's often you know, 520 00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:06,359 Speaker 6: some people love it and some people don't love it. 521 00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:09,240 Speaker 6: In this case, this is a piece of land that 522 00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:14,720 Speaker 6: had been completely vacant for years. The developer kicked out 523 00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:18,480 Speaker 6: small businesses to you know, supposedly had big plans and 524 00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:21,359 Speaker 6: never delivered on them. So I knew the local people 525 00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:24,240 Speaker 6: were not going to support a plan that was going 526 00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:28,280 Speaker 6: to you know, basically change what was supposed to be 527 00:25:28,359 --> 00:25:33,640 Speaker 6: a park to a big data center. I also knew 528 00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:37,679 Speaker 6: that more broadly, people are very frustrated with artificial intelligence 529 00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:40,280 Speaker 6: and the impacts it's having, how we're seeing so much 530 00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:45,119 Speaker 6: misinformation and slop in our feeds that we didn't see 531 00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:49,119 Speaker 6: just a few years ago, and how it's ultimately a 532 00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:55,080 Speaker 6: big money maker for the extremely wealthy and virtually nothing 533 00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:58,560 Speaker 6: is trickling down to regular folks. So different people have 534 00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:01,439 Speaker 6: different reasons for opposing it, but it is it is 535 00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:04,600 Speaker 6: definitely something that is widely felt and we're all sort 536 00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:07,680 Speaker 6: of on the same side, whether you know, we don't 537 00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:10,800 Speaker 6: like it because of the impact it's having on you know, 538 00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:13,199 Speaker 6: our social media feeds, or the impact it's having on 539 00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:16,000 Speaker 6: our economy, or the impact it's having on our environment, 540 00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:19,240 Speaker 6: or just the fact that, you know, we don't want 541 00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:22,440 Speaker 6: developers to be able to make the maximum profit without 542 00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:25,159 Speaker 6: giving anything back to the community, and that's what we 543 00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:26,960 Speaker 6: were seeing here with this redevelopment. 544 00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:28,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's fascinating. 545 00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:30,280 Speaker 3: So the response I've seen to you, Charlie, I'll read 546 00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:33,200 Speaker 3: one from a VC who I know, Gary Tann. He says, 547 00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:36,840 Speaker 3: a fully built data center complex generates thirty one million 548 00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:38,919 Speaker 3: dollars a year in state taxes, sixty one million in 549 00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:42,080 Speaker 3: local It creates four hundred and thirty direct jobs as facility, 550 00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:46,560 Speaker 3: plus many more indirect construction phase jobs. So clearly, you 551 00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:51,320 Speaker 3: and your community, you're not buying that parse that argument. Oh, 552 00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:53,280 Speaker 3: you could have built a bigger park, Charlie, if you 553 00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:55,959 Speaker 3: would let it be there, and then the new park 554 00:26:56,119 --> 00:26:58,800 Speaker 3: would eventually materialize, So you're not buying it? 555 00:26:58,840 --> 00:26:59,440 Speaker 1: Tell us why? 556 00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:04,640 Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean those numbers are kind of made up, right, 557 00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:08,040 Speaker 6: I don't The specifics on this project were few and 558 00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:11,320 Speaker 6: far between. The developer never showed up in New Brunswick 559 00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:13,399 Speaker 6: to explain what they wanted to do or why this 560 00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:16,560 Speaker 6: was all just in the early phase of a redevelopment 561 00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:19,840 Speaker 6: plan secondhand, and frankly. 562 00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:21,520 Speaker 1: There were lies involved, right. 563 00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:25,080 Speaker 6: We were misled at the initial city council meeting where 564 00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:27,439 Speaker 6: they voted on this, and they were told this is 565 00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:30,200 Speaker 6: just minor tweaks that they're making to the commercial component 566 00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:32,720 Speaker 6: of the project, which was supposed to be offices in 567 00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:38,879 Speaker 6: retail originally. So yeah, I have no faith or trust 568 00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:42,119 Speaker 6: in you know, developers and officials who are going to 569 00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:45,160 Speaker 6: mislead us, and you know, at the end of the day, 570 00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:48,560 Speaker 6: you know they're not making the case. 571 00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:50,080 Speaker 1: They're not making a good case for it. 572 00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:54,200 Speaker 6: You know this This company basically came in and said, oh, yeah, 573 00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:56,640 Speaker 6: that developer messed up, but we're going to take over 574 00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:59,800 Speaker 6: their project where the financial backers, and don't worry, he's 575 00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:00,800 Speaker 6: not involved anymore. 576 00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:03,080 Speaker 1: So you could trust us. But then they're in Palm Beach. 577 00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:05,159 Speaker 6: They never came to New Brunswick and explained what they 578 00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:08,639 Speaker 6: wanted to do or why, and you know, ultimately this 579 00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:11,520 Speaker 6: seemed like a half baked plan all along. But it 580 00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:13,920 Speaker 6: was so important that we stopped the redevelopment plan because 581 00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:16,080 Speaker 6: if it got through, it would have allowed them to 582 00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:18,200 Speaker 6: have as many data centers as they wanted. 583 00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:21,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, and to your point, you know, I was watching 584 00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:25,160 Speaker 2: some of the town hall footage from Missouri community where 585 00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:27,800 Speaker 2: they were pushing back on, you know, efforts to put 586 00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:31,520 Speaker 2: a data center in their town, and the concerns really 587 00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:34,439 Speaker 2: were everything from the you know, the I don't know 588 00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:35,840 Speaker 2: what I want to call it, mundane, but you know, 589 00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:38,040 Speaker 2: concerned about noise pollution, what's the traffic going to mean, 590 00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:39,680 Speaker 2: what's it going to mean for the character of our town, 591 00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:43,440 Speaker 2: to the more existential And to that point, I wanted 592 00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:46,880 Speaker 2: to get your reaction to some recent comments from Sam Altman, 593 00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:50,479 Speaker 2: because I think there's also something there's a deeply anti 594 00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:54,080 Speaker 2: human ideology that is at the heart of this. So 595 00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:56,520 Speaker 2: let's go ahead and take a listen to Sam Altman 596 00:28:56,600 --> 00:29:00,360 Speaker 2: comparing the energy needs of AI to the energy needs 597 00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:01,520 Speaker 2: of human beings. 598 00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:04,600 Speaker 7: One of the things that is always unfair in this 599 00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:07,600 Speaker 7: comparison is people talk about how much energy it takes 600 00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:11,000 Speaker 7: to train an AI model relative to how much it 601 00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:13,920 Speaker 7: costs a human to do one inference query, But it 602 00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:15,760 Speaker 7: also takes a lot of energy to train a human. 603 00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:18,280 Speaker 7: It takes like twenty years of life and all of 604 00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:21,200 Speaker 7: the food you eat during that time before you get smart. 605 00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:23,760 Speaker 7: And not only that, it took like the very widespread 606 00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:25,880 Speaker 7: evolution of the one hundred billion people that have ever 607 00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:28,520 Speaker 7: lived and learned not to get eaten by predators and 608 00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:31,120 Speaker 7: learn how to figure out science and whatever to produce you. 609 00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:34,000 Speaker 7: And then you took whatever you know you took. So 610 00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:38,280 Speaker 7: the fair comparison is if you ask chatchpta question, how 611 00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:40,480 Speaker 7: much energy does it take once its model is trained 612 00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:45,000 Speaker 7: to answer that question versus a human? And probably AI 613 00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:47,560 Speaker 7: has already caught up on an energy efficiency basis measured 614 00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:48,440 Speaker 7: that way. 615 00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:51,080 Speaker 2: So what do you make of those comments comparing the 616 00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:54,719 Speaker 2: you know, the value and the energy needs of you know, 617 00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:58,040 Speaker 2: babies up through adult humans versus robots. 618 00:29:58,640 --> 00:29:59,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's certainly interesting. 619 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:02,320 Speaker 6: I think that you know, folks who think of it 620 00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:08,640 Speaker 6: in those terms, are you know, demonstrating the coldness that they. 621 00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:12,239 Speaker 1: Have towards society as we know it. 622 00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:17,000 Speaker 6: And you know, innovation can and be ken. It is 623 00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:20,400 Speaker 6: a great thing, you know, but we have to stay 624 00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:24,440 Speaker 6: true to what we are, you know, as as human beings, 625 00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:26,960 Speaker 6: as a society that you know loves and cares for 626 00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:29,959 Speaker 6: one another. You know, we can't just throw it all 627 00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:36,680 Speaker 6: away and change our physical environment to facilitate technology growth 628 00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:41,600 Speaker 6: over our own sustainability as a species. And of course, 629 00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:43,600 Speaker 6: you know, at the at the end of the day, 630 00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:45,959 Speaker 6: it's it's it's about money, right. These folks are going 631 00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:49,200 Speaker 6: to make a ton of money off this, and they 632 00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:54,240 Speaker 6: don't want to share the wealth. They want to control everything, 633 00:30:54,760 --> 00:31:00,920 Speaker 6: including information, including money, including water, including our you know, electricity, 634 00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:02,880 Speaker 6: And you know we can't stand for that. 635 00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:05,480 Speaker 1: You know, it's it's a power brat. That's awesome. 636 00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:09,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, all while promising to eliminate all or most white 637 00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:11,400 Speaker 2: collar jobs. I mean, that's the thing that to me 638 00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:16,120 Speaker 2: just continues to honestly astonish me, is they have the 639 00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:19,560 Speaker 2: nerve to say, how dare you stand against a data 640 00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:22,720 Speaker 2: center in your community when the quote unquote deal that 641 00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:25,200 Speaker 2: they're threatening us with is we want to use up 642 00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:27,040 Speaker 2: all the power if we find a robot to be 643 00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:29,840 Speaker 2: more efficient than you than we feel perfectly entitled to 644 00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:33,360 Speaker 2: privilege that robot right. We want to suck up we 645 00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:36,280 Speaker 2: want to you know, make spike your electricity bills. We 646 00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:37,720 Speaker 2: want to suck up the water, we want to suck 647 00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:42,400 Speaker 2: up the resources, all in service of ultimately eliminating your job. 648 00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:45,320 Speaker 2: And if you object to any of that, even from 649 00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:48,080 Speaker 2: the hyper local perspective of I don't want to be 650 00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:49,920 Speaker 2: part of this year in my community for a whole 651 00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:53,720 Speaker 2: variety of reasons, then you are you know, anti technology, 652 00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:56,920 Speaker 2: You're a degrowth, You're enemy number one, a sager put it. 653 00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:03,200 Speaker 6: Yeah, a lot of interesting comments in response to that tweet. Yeah, 654 00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:05,320 Speaker 6: all I can say is, you know, I support the 655 00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:08,239 Speaker 6: humans over the machines, and I think that, you know, 656 00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:12,000 Speaker 6: we should stick together, and no matter what the development 657 00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:14,400 Speaker 6: is proposed, whether it's a pipeline or a power plant 658 00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:19,600 Speaker 6: or a big AI data center, we should defend our communities. 659 00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:21,840 Speaker 6: If we don't want those things in our communities, we 660 00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:24,000 Speaker 6: have a right to stand up and say no. And 661 00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:26,800 Speaker 6: it's on them to make the case for why that's 662 00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:28,800 Speaker 6: going to be good in the long run, and they 663 00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:29,920 Speaker 6: are not making that case. 664 00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:30,960 Speaker 1: Totally agree, Charlie. 665 00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:33,920 Speaker 3: They call you enemy, I call you hero number one. 666 00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:38,320 Speaker 3: Thank you very much for joining us, Sir, genuinely inspired 667 00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:41,000 Speaker 3: by what you guys were able to do. Thank you 668 00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:42,400 Speaker 3: for joining our show. We appreciate it. 669 00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:45,680 Speaker 1: Thank you my pleasure. Keep up the good work, all. 670 00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:46,960 Speaker 3: Right, Thank you guys so much for watching. 671 00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:47,680 Speaker 1: We appreciate it. 672 00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:50,200 Speaker 3: We should be back in studio tomorrow as long as 673 00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:52,840 Speaker 3: all the roads, electricity and all of that cooperates. And 674 00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:54,160 Speaker 3: of course we're going to have our great State of 675 00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:55,640 Speaker 3: the Union live stream, so we'll see you all 676 00:32:55,680 --> 00:33:04,160 Speaker 7: Then, pot Boi