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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie, and you're listening to stuff Mom

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Speaker 1: never told you. M M. And today we're joined by

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Speaker 1: another guest, co host, Alison Green, of the podcast and

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Speaker 1: website Ask a Manager. Hey, Alison, thank you so much

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Speaker 1: for joining us today. Thanks for having me. Yeah, I've

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Speaker 1: been a fan of your website for a while now.

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Speaker 1: Could you tell us a little bit about yourself for

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Speaker 1: those um that might not be familiar with you and

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Speaker 1: about your show. I ran the advice column Ask a Manager,

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Speaker 1: which is both a website and a podcast, and I

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Speaker 1: answer questions that pretty much everything related to life at work.

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Speaker 1: So everything from my boss is a micro manager to

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Speaker 1: my coworker told me that I smell l and I

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Speaker 1: don't know what to do, to my boss is dating

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Speaker 1: my dad. Those are all real letters that I've gotten.

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Speaker 1: And originally Ask a Manager was just the website, but

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Speaker 1: the podcast launched about eight months ago, I think, and

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Speaker 1: it's been really fun to actually talk to the people

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Speaker 1: who are asking questions and be able to have back

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Speaker 1: and forth with them on the show that you don't

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Speaker 1: really get when I'm just writing an answer for the website. Sure, yeah,

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Speaker 1: and I bet oh man, I'd love to just pick

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Speaker 1: your brain about all of the things that you've people

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Speaker 1: have written in about, because I'm sure there is quite

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Speaker 1: the spectrum. Um. And today we're going to be talking

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Speaker 1: about burnout, which is something that I thought would be

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Speaker 1: a something that you could speak to pretty well. Um,

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Speaker 1: And it's something that's been on my mind lately after

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Speaker 1: I I recently attended this conference called work It, which

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Speaker 1: is a podcast festival for women, where Bridget gave a

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Speaker 1: brilliant talk and there was a whole session there on burnout.

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Speaker 1: And I think it is something on a lot of

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Speaker 1: our minds lately. Um. More and more work is bleeding

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Speaker 1: into personal life, and we're always on, We're always connected,

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Speaker 1: we're always on our phone, on our laptops, and I

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Speaker 1: think this is a big reason why so many of

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Speaker 1: us are experiencing burnout, are perhaps barely keeping it at bay.

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Speaker 1: Emily and Bridget did a whole episode on burnout about

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Speaker 1: a year or so ago, so check that out if

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Speaker 1: you want more info and speaking more info. It has

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Speaker 1: been in the news a lot lately, a lot of

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Speaker 1: studies around burnout, specifically looking at job sectors. We touched

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Speaker 1: on one of these studies briefly in our Tokyo Medical

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Speaker 1: University episode, Women in the medical field are more likely

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Speaker 1: to burn out as compared to their male counterparts. Another

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Speaker 1: study just came out looking at the digital demands on

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Speaker 1: modern journalists and how quote seemingly endless sources of potential

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Speaker 1: verses is causing journalists to feel overwhelmed, exhausted, and anxious,

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Speaker 1: which are all hallmarks of burnout. And we'll get into

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Speaker 1: that a little bit, but first, Alison, what is burnout?

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Speaker 1: Burnout is a very specific type of stress where you're

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Speaker 1: drained and you're not performing the way that you would

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Speaker 1: want to, and it usually results well when we're talking

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Speaker 1: about it in a work context, I should say it

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Speaker 1: usually results from a long, sustained period of high workload

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Speaker 1: and stress and pressure where you eventually reach a point

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Speaker 1: where you just feel tired all the time and like

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Speaker 1: you don't have the energy to keep going. And for

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Speaker 1: some people, they become frustrated and cynical about their jobs,

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Speaker 1: or they become frustrated by pretty routine workplace frustrations much

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Speaker 1: more easily than they used to. Some people will start

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Speaker 1: making mistakes because their energy and their focus has just

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Speaker 1: been used up. Some people start feeling like they're not

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Speaker 1: motivated to get up in the morning and go to work,

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Speaker 1: or to put in much effort once they're there, and

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Speaker 1: pretty much always it just makes you exhausted, both physically

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Speaker 1: and emotionally. Yeah. Um, one of the things that I

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Speaker 1: kept running into when I was doing the research on

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Speaker 1: this episode is people would describe this feeling of numbness,

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Speaker 1: of feeling like they had no motivation, they were constantly exhausted,

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Speaker 1: and they felt ineffective and pessimistic. Although interestingly, men experiencing

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Speaker 1: burnout typically don't report feelings of ineffectiveness and like you

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Speaker 1: kind of were alluding to, one thing to know is

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Speaker 1: burnout generally means work related burnout, but you can't experience

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Speaker 1: non work related burnout, for example taking care of children

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Speaker 1: and or aging parents, especially if you're doing that on

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Speaker 1: top of a job. Yeah. Absolutely, have you ever experienced burnout? Allison, Well,

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Speaker 1: this topic is near and dear to me to my heart.

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Speaker 1: I feel like, as as someone who works for myself,

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Speaker 1: I think freelancers and people who work for themselves are

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Speaker 1: at a really high risk of burnout because it's so

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Speaker 1: easy to just work all the time because you feel

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Speaker 1: like you things might be fine now work wise, but

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Speaker 1: in a couple of months, Who knows what your workload

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Speaker 1: will be like, maybe it'll be much less, which means

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Speaker 1: your income could be much less. So I think when

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Speaker 1: you work for yourself, there is serious built in pressure

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Speaker 1: to just work as many hours as you physically can

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Speaker 1: do it, and that is not sustainable in the long run.

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Speaker 1: But I feel like, like many people who were for themselves,

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Speaker 1: I have been trying to navigate that for years. But

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Speaker 1: you know, when I was listening to you talk about

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Speaker 1: other contexts where you can get burned out, I was

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Speaker 1: actually thinking about a situation that I had about a

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Speaker 1: year and a half ago when I moved. I moved

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Speaker 1: into a much larger house, and I hate moving. Everyone does.

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Speaker 1: No one likes moving, but I really hate it. I

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Speaker 1: can't stand living out of boxes. It makes me feel

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Speaker 1: like I'm camping, and I don't like camping, and so

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Speaker 1: I always want to get unpacked immediately, like I don't

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Speaker 1: want a week after I move in. I want everything done,

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Speaker 1: And so I took on an insane amount of work

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Speaker 1: and stress, and I remember feeling after about a week

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Speaker 1: like I had just hit a wall, Like I literally

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Speaker 1: felt like I physically I could not get up to

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Speaker 1: do another moving related task. And I think that is

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Speaker 1: obviously a much lower stakes kind of burnout than when

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Speaker 1: it's with your job or when it was with something

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Speaker 1: like taking care of kids or parents. But I think

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Speaker 1: we all experienced burnout in some context or another, even

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Speaker 1: if it's not work. Oh absolutely. I remember when I

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Speaker 1: moved into my the place I lived now. It was

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Speaker 1: the middle of summer. It was probably ninety seven degrees fahrenheit,

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Speaker 1: and I was trying to it's been a long day.

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Speaker 1: I had people helping me, and they abandoned me. I

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Speaker 1: don't blame them. That air conditioning wasn't working. And it

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Speaker 1: was on the second floor. It was very narrow staircase

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Speaker 1: and it curves around, so there's a lot of like

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Speaker 1: pivoting that you have to do. And I it was

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Speaker 1: really late at night, and I was trying to hang

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Speaker 1: these drapes so that I'm a very light sleeper, and

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Speaker 1: like any light comes in, I won't sleep. So I

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Speaker 1: was determined to hang these and then I was going

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Speaker 1: to go to bed and my mom called me. I

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Speaker 1: don't remember what happened, but the drapes fell over and

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Speaker 1: I just said, I have to go mom. I cannot

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Speaker 1: talk right now it was awful. I had a drape

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Speaker 1: related emergency as well and in my move, so I

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Speaker 1: completely understand. Have you heard from a lot of folks

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Speaker 1: on your website and through the podcast now that are

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Speaker 1: experiencing burnout? Yeah, I think it's really common, and I

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Speaker 1: think it's my sense and this is just anecdotal, but

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Speaker 1: my senses that it is increasing. And I suspect it

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Speaker 1: is what you alluded to earlier, that we're all plugged

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Speaker 1: in all the time. We're always connected to work. People

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Speaker 1: can always reach us for many of us, not for everyone,

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Speaker 1: But that's increased only the case for people. And everyone

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Speaker 1: always seems to feel busy. Everyone's always talking about how

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Speaker 1: busy they are, and I don't think that was the

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Speaker 1: case twenty years ago. Um, it is increasing. I suspect

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Speaker 1: technology as the culprit that technology. Again, going back to

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Speaker 1: a phone call with my mom, I feel that every

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Speaker 1: time I speak with her and she asked me how

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Speaker 1: are things I have? I take a long pause and

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Speaker 1: then I say, you know, still stressful. It's I'm embarrassed

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Speaker 1: to keep saying it, but it is still the truth. Yes,

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Speaker 1: that's like a transcript of a conversation with my mother. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And I feel like I'm becoming boring because that's my answer, right,

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Speaker 1: And I'm always hoping I've got to come up with

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Speaker 1: a better answer than still stressful, but I can't. Yes,

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Speaker 1: we need to resolve to come up with something better. Yes,

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Speaker 1: more interesting conversation for our mothers. When I was looking

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Speaker 1: into factors that lead to burnout, I found this article

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Speaker 1: from Dr Sarah Cotton, who is an organizational psychologist and

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Speaker 1: director at the consultancy Transitioning Well, and she listed six

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Speaker 1: primary factors. Expectation, misalignment the job isn't what you expected,

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Speaker 1: unsustainable workload, mission exposure risk or work associated trauma. Working

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Speaker 1: on autopilot so you know an employee is disengaged from

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Speaker 1: the work if it's mindless or something like that, passive

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Speaker 1: aggressive workplaces. This can lead to everyone thinking they're on

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Speaker 1: the same page about changes, but nothing ever changes. And lastly,

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Speaker 1: poor work life culture. Would you would you agree with

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Speaker 1: those Allison? That's interesting. They actually wouldn't be the first

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Speaker 1: ones I would have named. I agree. They can all

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Speaker 1: lead to burn up. The thing I see most commonly

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Speaker 1: is just really high overwhelming workload and unreasonable expectations, and

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Speaker 1: either a manager who will not act with any urgency

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Speaker 1: to change that, or a very commonly, maybe more commonly,

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Speaker 1: a person who has not been as sort of and

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Speaker 1: had a conversation with their manager about it, so they

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Speaker 1: feel that it's not an option to change anything about

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Speaker 1: their workload, but they haven't actually explored that, and there

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Speaker 1: may be options that they haven't taken advantage of yet.

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Speaker 1: Mm hmm, yeah, yeah, I would. I would agree with that.

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Speaker 1: And UM, here's the thing. Women in their thirties and

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Speaker 1: forties are at the highest risk of burnout. And this

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Speaker 1: could be because of life changes like having a child

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Speaker 1: or a child care or money, or it could be

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Speaker 1: the type of jobs women are more likely to hold,

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Speaker 1: or both. And that's at all. We have some numbers

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Speaker 1: for you. We've probably heard that, Um, women are more

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Speaker 1: likely to report feelings of anxiety or stress when compared

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Speaker 1: to men. We've done entire episodes on it, if you're interested.

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Speaker 1: And researchers think that contributes to a higher burnout rate

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Speaker 1: among women. And a survey from Osmopolitan magazine that almost

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Speaker 1: holy of research institutions found that of the seven d

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Speaker 1: and fifty female respondents, seventy reported experiencing panic attacks. Are

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Speaker 1: anxiety and said they sought out medical help because of

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Speaker 1: these things. Half said they check work email every day,

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Speaker 1: and over said they feel a lack of motivation, leading

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Speaker 1: some scientists to dub this as generation burnout. And I

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Speaker 1: can say I have difficulty not checking my email. That

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Speaker 1: is something that I am trying to get better about. Um,

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Speaker 1: it's hard to take vacation when a part of your

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Speaker 1: brain is always kind of checking into work. So I

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Speaker 1: relate to a lot of this stuff that we're talking about,

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Speaker 1: and it's I see it and a lot of my

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Speaker 1: friends and a lot of my coworkers. Something else the

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Speaker 1: study found is that a third of the women described

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Speaker 1: their jobs as stressful, and in general reported taking pore

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Speaker 1: care of themselves, not getting enough sleep, over under eating,

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Speaker 1: drinking too much to cope with the stress and burnout.

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Speaker 1: Um and yeah, again, I can relate to a lot

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Speaker 1: of that stuff and it might go without saying, but

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Speaker 1: stress and burnout take a physical toll, possibly manifesting and

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Speaker 1: being more prone to cold chest pains, higher rates of

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Speaker 1: heart disease, headaches are g I problems. It can manifest

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Speaker 1: in these physical ways that also impact how well we

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Speaker 1: can do our jobs and how well how well we

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Speaker 1: feel and how well we can be in our social lives.

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Speaker 1: It's it's got I think, more impact than we realize.

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Speaker 1: And Cosmo is not the only entity looking into burnout.

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Speaker 1: Montreal University looked into it as well, and a four

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Speaker 1: year study that followed over two thousand people, of them

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Speaker 1: women across ultiple workplaces, and the researchers were tracking things

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Speaker 1: like cynicism, effectiveness at work, and emotional exhaustion, those hallmarks

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Speaker 1: of burnout we talked about earlier, and they found women

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Speaker 1: were more likely to experience burnout. One of the reasons

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Speaker 1: behind this, researchers speculate, is because of the different conditions

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Speaker 1: women might encounter at work because of them being women.

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Speaker 1: The low levels of authority and decision making opportunities that

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Speaker 1: women are more likely to experience at work when compared

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Speaker 1: to men might lead them to higher levels of burnout,

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Speaker 1: which has to do with the types of positions men

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Speaker 1: are more likely to hold. That's interesting to me. I

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Speaker 1: don't have any research on this, so I am just

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Speaker 1: going on what I see anecdotally, but I see plenty

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Speaker 1: of burnout among women who have lots of authority and

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Speaker 1: lots of decision making opportunities. In fact, if anything, I

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Speaker 1: think I see it more among women who have those things.

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Speaker 1: So if I had to take a guess, I would

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Speaker 1: say that women might experience burnout more than men because women.

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Speaker 1: This is just a wild speculation here, but I'm going

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Speaker 1: to say it anyway. From what I see, I think

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Speaker 1: women tend to invest in their work in different ways

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Speaker 1: than men do. When women are conscientious of out their

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Speaker 1: jobs they get they often get very emotionally invested in

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Speaker 1: the details in a way that men don't do as much.

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Speaker 1: And obviously i'm speaking in generalizations here, so this isn't

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Speaker 1: going to be true of every man or every woman.

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Speaker 1: But from what I see, conscientious women are more likely

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Speaker 1: than men are to take what happens at work personally

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Speaker 1: and to feel a higher degree of obligation to kind

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Speaker 1: of hold everything together and keep things running smoothly. And

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Speaker 1: I think you see that same dynamic in homes as well.

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Speaker 1: And so in the same job, a woman might be

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Speaker 1: walking around with a higher stuss level than a man

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Speaker 1: just because of the way that she invests, and I

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Speaker 1: would bet that is part of why there are higher

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Speaker 1: burn at rates with women. I could totally see that.

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Speaker 1: And I also there's so many things probably at play here,

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Speaker 1: and one of them, I would say is we did

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Speaker 1: an episode on emotional labor at work and how often

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Speaker 1: times women are expected to do these sort of extra

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Speaker 1: social tasks at work, and I'm sure that's that's a thing.

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Speaker 1: And then also I do think a lot of women

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Speaker 1: in general, but probably in UM, in positions that do

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Speaker 1: have a high level of authority, feel a set of

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Speaker 1: expectation they think they have to meet UM. So maybe

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Speaker 1: they're always trying to prove themselves. I don't know. I

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Speaker 1: just feel like there's this pressure to be really really

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Speaker 1: good UM that perhaps men don't experience it the same way.

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Speaker 1: And again that is generalization too. No, I think you're

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Speaker 1: absolutely right. It's it's harder to be a woman, particularly

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Speaker 1: as you get more and more authority and responsible at

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Speaker 1: your job, the expectations on you are more intense. You

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Speaker 1: have to be perfectly pleasant to everyone all the time

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Speaker 1: or you'll be seen as abrasive. But you can't be

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Speaker 1: too pleasant or you won't be taken seriously. There's all

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Speaker 1: of these conflicting expectations that are intention with each other

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Speaker 1: that men don't have in the same way. And I

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Speaker 1: think you're absolutely right about the emotional labor component as well.

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Speaker 1: And it's not just they're really tangible emotional labor stuff

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Speaker 1: like you're expected to help clean up after meetings and

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Speaker 1: be involved in the party planning committee. It's also more

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Speaker 1: subtle stuff, um, like your demeanor at work and never

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Speaker 1: looking piste off even when you're frustrated, And there's something

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Speaker 1: about how we're socialized as women. There's actually a piece

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Speaker 1: of this, even separate from all of that, there's a

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Speaker 1: piece of this that feels similar to me to how

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Speaker 1: like there's research showing that if there's a pair of

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Speaker 1: socks lying on the floor at home in a lot

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Speaker 1: of households, it's the woman who's more likely to be

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Speaker 1: the one who a notices it and be is more

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Speaker 1: bothered by it and see pay sit up. And I

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Speaker 1: think there's something similar to that that happens at work too,

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Speaker 1: where women just feel more personal responsibility for making sure

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Speaker 1: that things run well and that people are happy and

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Speaker 1: that things feel harmonious. And we take that burden on

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Speaker 1: ourselves in a way that men don't. Again generalization, some

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Speaker 1: men do, some women don't. In general, I think that's true. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's um. I would agree with all of that. And

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Speaker 1: I mean, we've we've spoken so much on this show

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Speaker 1: before about that whole kind of tight rope that women

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Speaker 1: have to walk where you can't you can't be too

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Speaker 1: much of this, are too much of this, you have

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Speaker 1: to be exactly that. And I think it does come

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Speaker 1: into play and meetings and in like the closed choices

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Speaker 1: that you you make. Just so many things that are

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Speaker 1: always in the back of our mind that are exhausting.

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Speaker 1: It's exhausting thinking about that stuff. And um. Going back

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Speaker 1: to that stud the one out of Montreal University, it

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Speaker 1: also found that low self esteem and poor work life

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Speaker 1: balance are very important factors into why women burnout UM

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Speaker 1: at higher rates compared to men. And if we step

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Speaker 1: back and we ask, well, why does all of this matter?

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Speaker 1: Aside from it sucks UM and it costs the economy

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Speaker 1: and lost productivity, it has those ripple effects to your

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Speaker 1: social life, to your overall health, and to a feeling

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Speaker 1: of fulfillment in I would hope that workplaces want to

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Speaker 1: be want to be somewhere where employees feel like they

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Speaker 1: can be effective and they can be productive. It's better

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Speaker 1: for everybody. Yeah, I would say from the manager side

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Speaker 1: of thing, if I've got an employee who's burning out

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Speaker 1: or in danger of burning out, that should really concern

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Speaker 1: me because that's someone who is going to be less

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Speaker 1: engaged with the word. They're more likely to make mistakes,

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Speaker 1: and they're more likely to up and quit one day.

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Speaker 1: You know. So often managers aren't willing to step in

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Speaker 1: and help with say an overwhelming workload, because they think, well,

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Speaker 1: there's no one else who could do this, or she's

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Speaker 1: so good at what she does, we really need her

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Speaker 1: to be the one doing it. That if you ignore

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Speaker 1: burnout at some point, that person is going to leave.

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Speaker 1: I mean everyone's going to leave at some point anyway, presumably,

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Speaker 1: but that person is going to leave earlier than they

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Speaker 1: might otherwise. And so it makes no logical sense if

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Speaker 1: if you invest in preventing burnout with someone who's great

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Speaker 1: at their job, you're going to have them around doing

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Speaker 1: that great job for a lot longer. Absolutely, And we

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Speaker 1: are about to talk about prevention, but first we're going

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Speaker 1: to take a quick break for word from our sponsor,

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Speaker 1: and we're back, Thank you, sponsor. So the best medicine

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Speaker 1: is prevention, right, That's what we always hear. How do

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Speaker 1: we prevent burnout? And we can look at this on

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Speaker 1: two levels. Um on a personal level and more on

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Speaker 1: a managerial level. Right, um, So, one thing is recognize

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Speaker 1: the symptoms. If you catch yourself thinking things like I

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Speaker 1: have to be perfect good moms, don't do insert whatever

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Speaker 1: it is here, I can handle this on my own,

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Speaker 1: then you might want to step back and maybe reassess, uh,

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Speaker 1: look at if maybe you're going through burnout. Another thing

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Speaker 1: is having a good social support system that helps in

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Speaker 1: so many ways, so many different things. Me time, find

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Speaker 1: something that is just for you, a way to unplug

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Speaker 1: once a day. It can be a short thing or

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Speaker 1: a long thing, whatever you can fit into your schedule.

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Speaker 1: Another one is exercise, whatever that is for you. It

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Speaker 1: could be a walk, yoga, stretching. I actually try to

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Speaker 1: do so thing outside once a day, and I find

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Speaker 1: that this has been so beneficial for me, to the

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Speaker 1: point that sometimes if I feel a headache coming on

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Speaker 1: or I'm feeling extremely stressed, I can go outside for

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Speaker 1: a bit, like literally minutes, and it helps relax me.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes it could all be in my head and that's

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Speaker 1: an unintentional pun, but it makes the headache go away.

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Speaker 1: And I know this is not an option for everyone,

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Speaker 1: but if you can, I highly recommend being outside at

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Speaker 1: least once a day. Make time for sleep, good sleep.

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Speaker 1: I am terrible at this, but I think a lot

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Speaker 1: of us are terrible about about getting good sleep. But

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Speaker 1: it is important. And another thing is setting clear boundaries.

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Speaker 1: And this one has been a real challenge for me too.

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Speaker 1: But I try not to work once I get home

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Speaker 1: at nights or on the weekends or on vacation. I

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Speaker 1: have gotten better. I don't do social media if I

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Speaker 1: can avoid it, which in this line of work is

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Speaker 1: it's difficult to avoid, but it's something that's always on.

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Speaker 1: So if I can't avoid it completely, then I try

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Speaker 1: to set like these are my social media hours. An

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Speaker 1: hour before bed, I stopped looking at my phone. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And this is something the journalist in that study at

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Speaker 1: the top said they did as a way to try

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Speaker 1: to manage their workload. Some of them said they deleted Facebook, Twitter, snapchat, Instagram.

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Speaker 1: If email is something that overwhelms you, and I have

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Speaker 1: so many friends who say their inbox is a source

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Speaker 1: of huge amounts of stress for them, to the point

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Speaker 1: that they won't even check it, and then it becomes

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Speaker 1: more and more stressful because more and more emails keep

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Speaker 1: coming in inbox rules or something that helps. Some folks

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Speaker 1: having rules where where what emails get priority. Some go

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Speaker 1: to a folder that you never see again. I remember

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Speaker 1: a friend called me once and she was in the

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Speaker 1: midst of a panic attack, and I knew it was

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Speaker 1: serious because most people who know me know I will

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Speaker 1: go to amazing lengths to avoid talking on the phone.

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Speaker 1: I helped her make a list of small, bowl accomplishable

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Speaker 1: things and we went through her inbox one at a time,

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Speaker 1: and it really helped her. So these are some ways

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Speaker 1: to prevent burnout. Do you have any any other suggestions, Alison,

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Speaker 1: I think those are great. One I would add is

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Speaker 1: just really paying attention to yourself and how you're feeling

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Speaker 1: and not ignoring signs of stress. If you've had week

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Speaker 1: after week or month after month of feeling exhausted and stressed,

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Speaker 1: recognize that as a huge morning sign, because I think

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Speaker 1: some of us tend to just keep going even after

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Speaker 1: months of stress and exhaustion, and that is asking for trouble.

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Speaker 1: I'm guilty of those. So this is very much like

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Speaker 1: the doctor who doesn't take her own medicine. But when

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Speaker 1: you start first noticing yourself feeling that way over a

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Speaker 1: sustained period, pay attention to it, Schedule a vacation, get

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Speaker 1: some time off, disconnect from work, and figure out what

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Speaker 1: is at the root of it. If the way that

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Speaker 1: you're feeling is a sign that whatever is causing it

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Speaker 1: isn't sustainable, you've got to come up than other approach.

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Speaker 1: Maybe not for next week, maybe not even for next month,

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Speaker 1: but you've got to get something in motion that's going

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Speaker 1: to address that situation. And I think the other thing

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Speaker 1: is to not assume that just because you can work

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Speaker 1: crazy hours for months on end that you should. Just

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Speaker 1: because you can do it does not mean it's a

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Speaker 1: wise long term strategy. It might be a very bad

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Speaker 1: long term strategy, because if you burn out, you're going

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Speaker 1: to do a worse job, and you might end up

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Speaker 1: in a place where you can't do much of anything

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Speaker 1: at all. So just do all the things, even if

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Speaker 1: it exhausts me is not a sound strategy for work

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Speaker 1: or for life. And I think to building in time

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Speaker 1: for breaks, real breaks where you disconnect from work, You

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Speaker 1: go on vacation, you just lounge around on your couch,

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Speaker 1: whatever it is, you do stuff that relaxes you and

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Speaker 1: makes you happy. That is a really key thing, because

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Speaker 1: when we're busy, that is often the stuff that we

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Speaker 1: cut out because it feels more cutible than everything else.

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Speaker 1: But in the long run, it's really not not if

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Speaker 1: you want to sustain whatever it is that you're doing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah so much, I can't tell you how many times

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Speaker 1: I've had to just resign myself too. I know I

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Speaker 1: could do better than what I'm doing, but I don't

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Speaker 1: have the energy anymore. And that is not a good

431
00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:24,600
Speaker 1: approach to have at a job, especially when I'm I

432
00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:26,119
Speaker 1: love my job, and I care about my job, and

433
00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:30,040
Speaker 1: I wanted to the best that I can. But I

434
00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:33,919
Speaker 1: do feel this pressure, and a lot of it is

435
00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:37,399
Speaker 1: pressure I'm putting on myself. No one is asking me

436
00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:40,080
Speaker 1: to do these things, to keep pushing and to do

437
00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:46,600
Speaker 1: all the things, and I've had to step back from

438
00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:50,720
Speaker 1: from this schedule that I made for myself. I remember

439
00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:53,000
Speaker 1: having a conversation with a friend where I said I

440
00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:56,240
Speaker 1: felt trapped in my own life. It was because I

441
00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:59,879
Speaker 1: just had scheduled everything out and I had no free time,

442
00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:04,720
Speaker 1: and that is not a sustainable model to happen. Like

443
00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:08,879
Speaker 1: and so often, just as you're describing, we are the

444
00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:11,719
Speaker 1: ones doing it. To ourselves to some degree, and I

445
00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:14,840
Speaker 1: think if you are a conscientious person, and that's a

446
00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:17,480
Speaker 1: wonderful trait. We should all be conscientious, right, But this

447
00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:21,120
Speaker 1: is the dark side of conscientiousness, is that we will

448
00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:23,520
Speaker 1: do this to ourselves and we will create these traps

449
00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:27,240
Speaker 1: of our own making. Mm hmmm. And something I wanted

450
00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:29,640
Speaker 1: to go back to that I think that you could

451
00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:32,240
Speaker 1: speak to more than I can, is um work related

452
00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:34,800
Speaker 1: burnout doesn't just happen to folks in the office. I

453
00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:37,480
Speaker 1: think we have this vision when we hear burnout and

454
00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:41,440
Speaker 1: it's somebody at a cubicle or otherwise in an office,

455
00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:45,200
Speaker 1: but it impacts remote workers as well, people who work

456
00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:48,200
Speaker 1: from home, people who are their own bosses. And one

457
00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:51,400
Speaker 1: of the reasons when I was researching why is that

458
00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:54,520
Speaker 1: people feel a need to do more work to thank

459
00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:57,360
Speaker 1: their employee for giving them the option of flexible work

460
00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:00,560
Speaker 1: hours and working remotely. But the number one thing was

461
00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:08,600
Speaker 1: feeling a pressure from within to just keep working. Has

462
00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:12,200
Speaker 1: that been your experience, Yes, I think it goes back

463
00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:15,960
Speaker 1: to again conscientiousness. If you are conscientious, you want to

464
00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:18,240
Speaker 1: make sure that people know that you're on top of

465
00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:20,920
Speaker 1: your work. You're not taking advantage of working remotely to

466
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:22,840
Speaker 1: just play with the cat and do laundry all day.

467
00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:25,840
Speaker 1: You feel like you want to prove to people that

468
00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:27,719
Speaker 1: you're just as much on top of your work as

469
00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:29,439
Speaker 1: you would be if you were in the office, and

470
00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:31,640
Speaker 1: so you end up putting pressure on yourself that no

471
00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:34,080
Speaker 1: one else would be putting on you. In many cases,

472
00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:37,000
Speaker 1: it actually reminds me. This is going to sound like

473
00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:39,240
Speaker 1: a tangent, and maybe it is, but it actually reminds

474
00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:41,639
Speaker 1: me of something that you see with companies that offer

475
00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:45,320
Speaker 1: unlimited vacation time. That sounds great, unlimited vocation time. You

476
00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:46,760
Speaker 1: can take as much time off as you want. Who

477
00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:49,960
Speaker 1: wouldn't want that, right? What you actually see in companies

478
00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:52,320
Speaker 1: that offer unlimited vacation time is that people take a

479
00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:55,080
Speaker 1: little bit less on average than they took when the

480
00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:59,920
Speaker 1: company was offering a specific set number of days per year, because, again,

481
00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:02,679
Speaker 1: conscientious people don't want to look like slackers, and they

482
00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:05,560
Speaker 1: get really worried about what kind of perception there's going

483
00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:08,120
Speaker 1: to be about their time off, and so they air

484
00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:10,240
Speaker 1: on the side of caution and they take less time.

485
00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:13,160
Speaker 1: And I think that there's something in there that's very

486
00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:16,000
Speaker 1: similar to this thing that happens to remote workers where

487
00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:18,359
Speaker 1: they feel like they need to prove no, look, I

488
00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:26,280
Speaker 1: am really working hard, absolutely, and I have noticed at

489
00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:29,520
Speaker 1: at my job when I've had these conversations with co workers,

490
00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:33,679
Speaker 1: none of us, hardly, any of us, a big percentage

491
00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:36,600
Speaker 1: of us, don't really take vacation days. We get to

492
00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:37,960
Speaker 1: the end of the year and we have all of

493
00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:41,920
Speaker 1: our vacation days. And I think part of the problem

494
00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:47,760
Speaker 1: in our case is we love our jobs. And so

495
00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:54,360
Speaker 1: it's been for me defining yes, I love my job

496
00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:58,640
Speaker 1: and I love researching everything, and it's hard to untangle

497
00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:04,240
Speaker 1: that sometimes from uh, this is still work, and it

498
00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:07,280
Speaker 1: is work, and it is stressful, but I do love it,

499
00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:12,720
Speaker 1: and so I've had to be very firm with I know,

500
00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:14,600
Speaker 1: you want to know everything there is to know about

501
00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:19,240
Speaker 1: chewing gum, You've got to go home. Yeah, this is

502
00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:20,880
Speaker 1: a piece of it. I think that doesn't get talked

503
00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:23,600
Speaker 1: about very much because if you love your job, that's great.

504
00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:26,160
Speaker 1: Everything must be happy all the time and and fulfilling,

505
00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:30,280
Speaker 1: and that's not the case. And often loving your job

506
00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:33,520
Speaker 1: does drive you to work crazy hours that feel fine

507
00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:36,600
Speaker 1: for a while because you're doing something you really enjoy,

508
00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:40,760
Speaker 1: but it tends to entangle you with more and more commitments,

509
00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:43,360
Speaker 1: and then you wake up one day and you've committed

510
00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:45,600
Speaker 1: yourself in all of these different directions and there's no

511
00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:51,240
Speaker 1: space for relaxing anymore. Mm hmm. And as we record this,

512
00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:54,280
Speaker 1: if we go back for a minute to non work

513
00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:59,160
Speaker 1: related burnout. It's the holiday season and this morning, the

514
00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:04,960
Speaker 1: hashtag uh signs Santa's burnt out was trending. And the

515
00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:08,360
Speaker 1: never ending list of of errands, of the gift wrapping

516
00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:12,240
Speaker 1: and finding the gifts, the cooking, the decorating, the social obligations,

517
00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:14,920
Speaker 1: the extra workload that you might take on so that

518
00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:19,000
Speaker 1: you can take time off. It's a lot. And this

519
00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:22,640
Speaker 1: is a big time of year four burnout in part

520
00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:25,880
Speaker 1: because of that. One casual survey found that one third

521
00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:33,280
Speaker 1: of respondents reported festive burnout. I love that. Yeah, it's weird.

522
00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:36,400
Speaker 1: There's like a there's a weird tension and all of

523
00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:39,440
Speaker 1: these activities that we really like, jobs that we love,

524
00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:44,200
Speaker 1: holidays that we're presumably celebrating because we enjoy celebrating them,

525
00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:48,080
Speaker 1: and all that comes along with that. But again, especially

526
00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:51,000
Speaker 1: for women, I think there's a burden associated with them too.

527
00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:55,360
Speaker 1: I was discussing with a friend the other day about

528
00:30:55,400 --> 00:31:01,440
Speaker 1: how as I've gotten older, the holiday is have become

529
00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:07,000
Speaker 1: this huge stressor where it's almost a joke, right that

530
00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:12,080
Speaker 1: that's what you see in in SNL are even in

531
00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:17,040
Speaker 1: commercials that this holiday season get rid of some stress

532
00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:20,560
Speaker 1: by doing this, or it's just kind of assumed that

533
00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:22,640
Speaker 1: there's gonna be all this drama and stress with them,

534
00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:27,800
Speaker 1: and I that is both kind of funny and kind

535
00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:29,800
Speaker 1: of sad. I don't know how we've reached this point,

536
00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:33,600
Speaker 1: but I do think that we have. And that is

537
00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:36,920
Speaker 1: something else in our office is it is really when

538
00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:40,640
Speaker 1: the holidays come around, it's very stressful because you don't

539
00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:44,320
Speaker 1: really stop publishing podcast, so you have to figure out

540
00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:48,440
Speaker 1: how you're going to get around that. Um but they're

541
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:51,600
Speaker 1: supposed to be this fun, relaxing time of year, and

542
00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:55,760
Speaker 1: of course we found a way to make it very stressful. Yeah,

543
00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:59,640
Speaker 1: I'm curious if that is universal. I feel that way too,

544
00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:02,240
Speaker 1: But now I'm wondering if my husband feels that way,

545
00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:04,240
Speaker 1: and I suspect that he doesn't, so I'm going to

546
00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:07,920
Speaker 1: ask him later today. But I suspect there are some

547
00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:10,720
Speaker 1: people who don't, and I want to find out what

548
00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:14,600
Speaker 1: their secret is. My hunch is that they're just not

549
00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:19,840
Speaker 1: taking on the sort of internalized pressure and obligations that

550
00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:24,800
Speaker 1: some of us take on. Well, report back what your

551
00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:28,080
Speaker 1: husband says, and listeners, if you have a different experience,

552
00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:32,520
Speaker 1: please right in, because I cannot think of anyone in

553
00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:38,080
Speaker 1: my personal sphere that I mean, we're excited to go

554
00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:41,560
Speaker 1: eat food and stuff, but generally prettyted out about the

555
00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:43,920
Speaker 1: whole thing. Yeah, I feel like there's a long to

556
00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:48,280
Speaker 1: do list that's associated with the holidays. But I'm going

557
00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:50,080
Speaker 1: to check in with my husband on this. I he

558
00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:52,400
Speaker 1: has a very happy, good like the attitude about the holidays,

559
00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:55,360
Speaker 1: and now I'm wondering what his secret is. Well, definitely

560
00:32:55,440 --> 00:33:01,720
Speaker 1: let us know. One thing that I saw Harrison pop

561
00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:04,400
Speaker 1: up over and over and over again is that burnout

562
00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:06,680
Speaker 1: is like the frog and the boiling water. A lot

563
00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:09,920
Speaker 1: of people don't realize that they have it until they

564
00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:13,040
Speaker 1: reach this crisis point, and then what do you do?

565
00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:16,080
Speaker 1: What do you do if prevention didn't work and you

566
00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:19,320
Speaker 1: are burnt out? We will get into that after one

567
00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:31,800
Speaker 1: more quick break for word from our sponsor and we're back,

568
00:33:31,840 --> 00:33:35,800
Speaker 1: Thank you sponsor. So say we didn't take all of

569
00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:39,560
Speaker 1: these prevention steps, or we did, but nothing else changed

570
00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:44,360
Speaker 1: and we are experiencing burnout. What do we do? Allison?

571
00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:48,360
Speaker 1: I think first figure out where it's coming from. If

572
00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:50,200
Speaker 1: it's workload, which it is for a lot of people,

573
00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:53,720
Speaker 1: then you've got to step back and figure out where

574
00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:56,400
Speaker 1: to cut. And depending on your job, that might be

575
00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:58,320
Speaker 1: a conversation that you have to have with your boss.

576
00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:03,040
Speaker 1: People often feel like there's nothing that they could realistically cut.

577
00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:04,800
Speaker 1: It just all has to get done, and so there

578
00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:07,560
Speaker 1: must be no point in having that conversation with their boss.

579
00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:10,319
Speaker 1: But if you are good at your job, your and

580
00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:14,839
Speaker 1: your boss is even halfway decent, your boss doesn't want

581
00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:16,759
Speaker 1: to lose you, and so if she hears that you're

582
00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:19,480
Speaker 1: burning out and that she is potentially at risk of

583
00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:22,919
Speaker 1: losing you entirely, a smart boss is going to find

584
00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:26,120
Speaker 1: ways to help you manage your workload so that she

585
00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:28,680
Speaker 1: can keep you rather than lose you all together. Now,

586
00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:30,919
Speaker 1: you might have a bad manager who is no help

587
00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:33,760
Speaker 1: in this regard. Lets with people do, but it's still

588
00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:37,000
Speaker 1: worth initiating that conversation so that you know for sure,

589
00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:41,280
Speaker 1: because managers sometimes surprise people. I've had the experience myself

590
00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:44,600
Speaker 1: of thinking there's nothing here that can possibly be cut

591
00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:47,520
Speaker 1: out there are no options. But then my boss heard

592
00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:51,440
Speaker 1: the situation, took it seriously and helped me move things around.

593
00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:53,279
Speaker 1: You don't know until you try. And actually been on

594
00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:56,680
Speaker 1: the other side of that too, where I've sort of

595
00:34:56,760 --> 00:35:00,399
Speaker 1: had to drag out of an employee what was going on.

596
00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:02,400
Speaker 1: They weren't bringing it up because they figured there were

597
00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:04,360
Speaker 1: no options, what was the point and even talking about

598
00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:06,719
Speaker 1: it maybe they would just look like a complainer. But

599
00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:09,359
Speaker 1: once I pulled it out of them, we were able

600
00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:12,560
Speaker 1: to move things around. So you don't know until you try.

601
00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:14,879
Speaker 1: But if you do try and it goes nowhere, your

602
00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:16,880
Speaker 1: boss is no help. You're still stuck with all the

603
00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:19,879
Speaker 1: same work that is good information that is not. Don't

604
00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:22,080
Speaker 1: feel like that's a failure. That is still a very

605
00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:25,000
Speaker 1: useful conversation to have had, because if your boss tells

606
00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:27,400
Speaker 1: you nope, nothing can change. You have to keep this

607
00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:31,000
Speaker 1: unrealistic workload. Now you know that that is not where

608
00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:33,080
Speaker 1: the solution lies, You're going to need to take steps

609
00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:35,680
Speaker 1: of your own to change it, which usually is going

610
00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:37,239
Speaker 1: to mean deciding if you want to look at other

611
00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:40,799
Speaker 1: job options. But don't jump straight there until you have

612
00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:44,719
Speaker 1: the conversation first. And the other thing it sounds so obvious,

613
00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:47,800
Speaker 1: but take a vacation, a real one, not a few days.

614
00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:50,719
Speaker 1: When you're really stressed out. It takes more than a

615
00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:52,719
Speaker 1: few days to unwind. I think it can take a

616
00:35:52,719 --> 00:35:55,719
Speaker 1: few days just to stop thinking about work. I think

617
00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:58,879
Speaker 1: you need a minimum of a week, two weeks or better,

618
00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:02,080
Speaker 1: and it should be a time where you completely unplug.

619
00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:05,560
Speaker 1: No checking emails, no taking work calls. You've got to

620
00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:08,600
Speaker 1: not think about work for a good solid amount of

621
00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:10,879
Speaker 1: time so that you can start getting back to your

622
00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:15,320
Speaker 1: baseline of feeling normal. And sometimes if you do that,

623
00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:18,120
Speaker 1: that can make a real difference. Sometimes that break will

624
00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:20,239
Speaker 1: be the thing that makes you realize, oh, okay, the

625
00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:23,040
Speaker 1: situation is actually untenable. I need to take steps to

626
00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:25,359
Speaker 1: change it, and it gives you the resolve to do it,

627
00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:28,040
Speaker 1: or maybe you realize, oh, I need to get out.

628
00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:30,560
Speaker 1: But it's nearly always going to give you some kind

629
00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:33,080
Speaker 1: of clarity about where to go next, and it's very

630
00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:35,319
Speaker 1: hard to get that kind of clarity when you're in

631
00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:39,560
Speaker 1: the middle of the stress. I know some people sometimes think, yeah,

632
00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:41,479
Speaker 1: I mean I'd love to take a vacasion. That sounds great,

633
00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:43,600
Speaker 1: But part of the problem here is that I literally

634
00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:46,239
Speaker 1: cannot make the time to do it, you just have

635
00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:48,080
Speaker 1: to find a way, and that I think the way

636
00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:51,239
Speaker 1: to look at this is if you got really sick tomorrow,

637
00:36:51,520 --> 00:36:54,319
Speaker 1: you would somehow find the time to be out. It

638
00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:56,400
Speaker 1: would be an inconvenience, but you would find a way

639
00:36:56,480 --> 00:36:59,719
Speaker 1: to do it. It's doable when it absolutely has to be.

640
00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:02,839
Speaker 1: And I think you have to see this situation as

641
00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:05,280
Speaker 1: one that is a situation where that needs to happen,

642
00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:07,640
Speaker 1: just as if you had like a really bad flu,

643
00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:10,120
Speaker 1: Because if you don't treat it that way, you are

644
00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:12,240
Speaker 1: eventually going to get so burned out that you won't

645
00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:13,960
Speaker 1: be able to stay in that job at all. And

646
00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:15,960
Speaker 1: if you think they can't spare you for a week

647
00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:17,960
Speaker 1: or two, what is going to happen when you wake

648
00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:21,000
Speaker 1: up one day and can't face ever going back. So

649
00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:24,920
Speaker 1: getting yourself a week or two now helps ensure that

650
00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:30,000
Speaker 1: that doesn't happen. So time off take it absolutely. I

651
00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:34,680
Speaker 1: know that vacation can feel frivolous, and I'm definitely someone

652
00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:40,720
Speaker 1: I love traveling. It's strange, I love traveling, but um,

653
00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:45,960
Speaker 1: I don't really take vacation. But recently I one a

654
00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:51,480
Speaker 1: trip to Disney World and part of this package was

655
00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:55,600
Speaker 1: I won, but I had to go and sit through

656
00:37:55,640 --> 00:37:59,480
Speaker 1: a time share meeting. They were trying to sell me

657
00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:03,960
Speaker 1: a time share, and one thing I really took from

658
00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:08,360
Speaker 1: that is they had a thirty minute presentation on the

659
00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:12,440
Speaker 1: importance of vacation, and of course they were motivated and

660
00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:15,680
Speaker 1: trying to get you to go in on this time share,

661
00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:19,759
Speaker 1: but I did kind of walk away thinking, huh, yeah,

662
00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:25,239
Speaker 1: I haven't really put vacation in terms of like overall

663
00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:29,960
Speaker 1: health and productivity. So I, you know, I learned something

664
00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:34,680
Speaker 1: from that time share meeting. Did you buy the time share? No?

665
00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:40,640
Speaker 1: But they were very deterring, and I texted my friends

666
00:38:40,680 --> 00:38:43,000
Speaker 1: and I was like, oh, I bought it into the

667
00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:45,400
Speaker 1: time share because I was kidding, and they all believed

668
00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:47,640
Speaker 1: it in panicks. I didn't know they were panicking. And

669
00:38:47,640 --> 00:38:49,600
Speaker 1: I came back and like, you know, why did you

670
00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:55,759
Speaker 1: do it? That's great. I do think there is a

671
00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:59,799
Speaker 1: mental shift that people have to do that we there

672
00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:03,960
Speaker 1: are certain things that we feel are optional, vacation time

673
00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:08,319
Speaker 1: for ourselves, some of our sleep time. It feels like

674
00:39:08,400 --> 00:39:10,719
Speaker 1: those are the things that can be cut, and so

675
00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:13,439
Speaker 1: we cut them. But I think there's like this long term,

676
00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:15,680
Speaker 1: longer term perspective that we need to have, which is

677
00:39:15,719 --> 00:39:18,360
Speaker 1: that in the long term those things should not be cutable.

678
00:39:19,640 --> 00:39:23,760
Speaker 1: And going off of that, Ariana Huffington's of Huffington Post

679
00:39:24,719 --> 00:39:27,600
Speaker 1: she founded this thing called Thrive Global and as a

680
00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:29,879
Speaker 1: part of that, she's been digging into ways to end

681
00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:33,960
Speaker 1: this culture of stress and burnout. And part of that culture,

682
00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:36,520
Speaker 1: particularly here in the US, has for a long time

683
00:39:36,560 --> 00:39:38,640
Speaker 1: been lauded. I think it was good to be a

684
00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:41,800
Speaker 1: workaholic if you weren't stressed out by work, you weren't

685
00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:44,839
Speaker 1: working hard enough, or you didn't care about your job enough.

686
00:39:45,360 --> 00:39:49,120
Speaker 1: And so we need to change that mindset and start

687
00:39:49,160 --> 00:39:55,239
Speaker 1: prioritizing health and well being. That's one important step of that. UM.

688
00:39:55,680 --> 00:39:59,600
Speaker 1: And it's good for the bottom line too. Yeah, I

689
00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:04,759
Speaker 1: think there is a thing where, on some level sometimes

690
00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:09,320
Speaker 1: people feel like, well, they're busy because they're important, and

691
00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:12,759
Speaker 1: so it gets all tied up with I don't know,

692
00:40:12,880 --> 00:40:16,680
Speaker 1: questions of merit and virtue and and that's so unhealthy.

693
00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:19,839
Speaker 1: And there that is a cultural shift that we need

694
00:40:19,880 --> 00:40:22,200
Speaker 1: to make, and I don't think we're we're at all

695
00:40:22,239 --> 00:40:25,759
Speaker 1: close to really making it in a real way. No,

696
00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:29,120
Speaker 1: I don't think so either. UM and another thing that

697
00:40:29,239 --> 00:40:32,240
Speaker 1: we really need to work on that you mentioned earlier

698
00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:38,400
Speaker 1: is communication, because I can say personally, I feel, or

699
00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:43,080
Speaker 1: I have felt in the past, that someone will give

700
00:40:43,120 --> 00:40:45,480
Speaker 1: me a job to do and then they don't give

701
00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:48,480
Speaker 1: me a deadline, and they don't ask how long it'll take.

702
00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:52,480
Speaker 1: They just give me a deadline, and they clearly have

703
00:40:52,520 --> 00:40:56,480
Speaker 1: no idea what goes into what they're asking me. UM.

704
00:40:56,560 --> 00:41:01,759
Speaker 1: So I think having a realistic expectation and to get

705
00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:06,080
Speaker 1: that you have communication. UM check in with people that

706
00:41:06,120 --> 00:41:08,920
Speaker 1: you're working with, see how they feel about their workload.

707
00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:11,400
Speaker 1: And even earlier I read in a lot of places

708
00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:15,000
Speaker 1: during the interview process, be clear about expectations and the

709
00:41:15,080 --> 00:41:19,640
Speaker 1: job description so people know what they're getting into. Yes, absolutely,

710
00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:22,200
Speaker 1: And I love your point about the deadlines that people

711
00:41:22,239 --> 00:41:25,239
Speaker 1: give with no real communication or or understanding of what

712
00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:29,280
Speaker 1: might go into it, because so often you can push back,

713
00:41:29,360 --> 00:41:32,040
Speaker 1: but people don't realize that they get a project with

714
00:41:32,080 --> 00:41:34,239
Speaker 1: the deadline and they think, well, I guess I just

715
00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:36,239
Speaker 1: have to find a way to make this work, even

716
00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:40,160
Speaker 1: if it's going to be a great hardship. But so often,

717
00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:44,799
Speaker 1: like one or two sentences can change everything. You can say, oh,

718
00:41:44,840 --> 00:41:46,120
Speaker 1: it would be really hard to get that to you

719
00:41:46,160 --> 00:41:48,640
Speaker 1: by the end of the week with two weeks from network,

720
00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:52,520
Speaker 1: and so often you'll hear, yeah, that's fine. So if

721
00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:54,799
Speaker 1: something feels like it's going to be really onerous, or

722
00:41:54,880 --> 00:41:57,040
Speaker 1: it's going to keep you at work late, or it's

723
00:41:57,040 --> 00:41:59,839
Speaker 1: going to interfere with you just being able to have

724
00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:03,600
Speaker 1: a reasonable week, you can just ask to change it

725
00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:06,680
Speaker 1: and not The answer won't be yes every time, but

726
00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:09,839
Speaker 1: it will be yes a lot of the time. Yeah.

727
00:42:09,880 --> 00:42:12,960
Speaker 1: And I think a little bit at what what might

728
00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:16,160
Speaker 1: prevent you from asking that is you want to look

729
00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:18,399
Speaker 1: like you're really good at your job and you don't

730
00:42:18,400 --> 00:42:22,680
Speaker 1: want any questions of your productivity uh to come back

731
00:42:22,719 --> 00:42:25,960
Speaker 1: after this exchange. But I do think that sometimes the

732
00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:28,839
Speaker 1: person on the other end just doesn't realize. And if

733
00:42:28,880 --> 00:42:32,640
Speaker 1: you are clear about you know, I think it would

734
00:42:32,680 --> 00:42:35,600
Speaker 1: be better if it has more time, I could put

735
00:42:35,640 --> 00:42:39,279
Speaker 1: in more work into it. Then I believe that most

736
00:42:39,320 --> 00:42:42,960
Speaker 1: people would be reasonable with that and would want that. Yeah.

737
00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:45,040
Speaker 1: And if you put yourself in their shoes, you know,

738
00:42:45,080 --> 00:42:47,319
Speaker 1: if you imagine sending a product off to someone and

739
00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:49,600
Speaker 1: you're thinking it would be nice to have it by Friday,

740
00:42:49,640 --> 00:42:52,720
Speaker 1: I'll tell them Friday. If that person then comes back

741
00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:56,400
Speaker 1: and pushes back and says, actually, what about the following Wednesday.

742
00:42:56,840 --> 00:42:59,200
Speaker 1: It's very unlikely that you're going to think, oh, what

743
00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:02,239
Speaker 1: a slacker, you know, I mean, unless you have some

744
00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:04,920
Speaker 1: experience with them already that has told you that they

745
00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:07,920
Speaker 1: are in due to slack. But assuming that's not the case,

746
00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:10,960
Speaker 1: normally you're not going to think anything unflattering about them.

747
00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:12,960
Speaker 1: You're you're gonna be very matter of fact about it

748
00:43:13,040 --> 00:43:15,560
Speaker 1: and just think, yeah, that's fine or or it's not,

749
00:43:15,800 --> 00:43:18,239
Speaker 1: and you'll tell them that it's not. But usually you're

750
00:43:18,280 --> 00:43:21,840
Speaker 1: not going to be drawing pejorative conclusions about someone because

751
00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:25,920
Speaker 1: of that. And despite that, despite knowing that that is

752
00:43:25,960 --> 00:43:28,120
Speaker 1: how we would react if we were in their shoes,

753
00:43:28,719 --> 00:43:32,400
Speaker 1: so often we still don't feel comfortable pushing back. And

754
00:43:32,440 --> 00:43:40,960
Speaker 1: we should. We should. And AEN survey found that of

755
00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:45,759
Speaker 1: companies in this sample provided burnout prevention programs, so companies

756
00:43:45,840 --> 00:43:49,520
Speaker 1: are starting to look into ways to prevent this, and

757
00:43:49,600 --> 00:43:53,360
Speaker 1: s offered reintegration programs, which I'm really interested in. Do

758
00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:56,120
Speaker 1: you know anything about those? No? I don't, And I'm

759
00:43:56,200 --> 00:44:01,759
Speaker 1: so curious because my initial reaction is, I bet that's

760
00:44:01,760 --> 00:44:04,440
Speaker 1: something that's put on b HR and it feels like

761
00:44:04,520 --> 00:44:07,400
Speaker 1: lip service to everyone else because I think to to

762
00:44:07,520 --> 00:44:09,080
Speaker 1: do it really well, you would have to make sure

763
00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:12,920
Speaker 1: that your culture and your managers were really bought in,

764
00:44:13,400 --> 00:44:16,840
Speaker 1: because I mean, you could have the greatest anti burnout

765
00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:19,960
Speaker 1: prevention education program in the world, but if you still

766
00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:22,880
Speaker 1: have managers overloading people with work and not being proactive

767
00:44:22,920 --> 00:44:25,440
Speaker 1: about helping people and sure they have a manageable workload,

768
00:44:25,719 --> 00:44:31,520
Speaker 1: it won't mean anything. Right. It is interesting to me

769
00:44:31,760 --> 00:44:35,400
Speaker 1: that it feels like burnout has become sort of a buzzword.

770
00:44:36,239 --> 00:44:38,520
Speaker 1: I think last year, a couple of years ago, I

771
00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:41,120
Speaker 1: was trying really hard to pitch the show where the

772
00:44:41,160 --> 00:44:45,560
Speaker 1: company would send me to Antarctica, and I had this

773
00:44:45,680 --> 00:44:50,840
Speaker 1: whole power point presentation and it was going to be

774
00:44:50,920 --> 00:44:57,279
Speaker 1: through this scientific research company, uh, And they provided me

775
00:44:57,320 --> 00:44:59,279
Speaker 1: with some slides that they were like, your boss will

776
00:44:59,360 --> 00:45:01,879
Speaker 1: love this. There's no way they'll be able to turn

777
00:45:01,880 --> 00:45:03,759
Speaker 1: it down. And one of them it was just said

778
00:45:03,840 --> 00:45:06,560
Speaker 1: burnout in big letters, and it said it had all

779
00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:10,400
Speaker 1: these statistics about it. And then you know, giving giving

780
00:45:10,400 --> 00:45:13,600
Speaker 1: me this opportunity would help me prevent burnout, and I

781
00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:19,000
Speaker 1: just thought, how interesting. So wait, what happened with the

782
00:45:19,000 --> 00:45:22,640
Speaker 1: Antarctica show. I I feel like it was a success,

783
00:45:22,880 --> 00:45:25,040
Speaker 1: and I even I had a partnership and we were

784
00:45:25,040 --> 00:45:28,359
Speaker 1: planning it, and then they wanted me to do this

785
00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:31,799
Speaker 1: whole food show. I haven't given up on it. I

786
00:45:31,920 --> 00:45:37,560
Speaker 1: could be an. I am determined. This is like I've

787
00:45:37,560 --> 00:45:40,880
Speaker 1: been trying to make this happen for years. So no,

788
00:45:41,080 --> 00:45:42,759
Speaker 1: I would go for the food show. I don't even

789
00:45:42,760 --> 00:45:46,280
Speaker 1: know what that entails, but that always already sounds good. Yeah.

790
00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:49,200
Speaker 1: When they were like, well, you probably get to travel

791
00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:51,640
Speaker 1: and eat and drink a lot of things, I was.

792
00:45:51,920 --> 00:45:56,239
Speaker 1: I was in Okay an article. I'll come back for you. Yes,

793
00:45:56,360 --> 00:46:00,439
Speaker 1: it'll still be there, hopefully. One other part of this

794
00:46:00,520 --> 00:46:06,040
Speaker 1: conversation as we close here comes up in every episode. UM,

795
00:46:06,080 --> 00:46:11,520
Speaker 1: but dismantling the structures of sexism and racism that put

796
00:46:11,560 --> 00:46:14,839
Speaker 1: added stress on women and people of color and LGBTQ

797
00:46:15,080 --> 00:46:18,279
Speaker 1: folks other marginalized folks that lead them to burnout at

798
00:46:18,320 --> 00:46:22,400
Speaker 1: higher rates. That's a huge thing. But it does impact

799
00:46:22,560 --> 00:46:25,319
Speaker 1: so much of what we talk about, and burnout is

800
00:46:25,360 --> 00:46:30,759
Speaker 1: not immune. Yeah. Absolutely, I think it goes back to

801
00:46:30,840 --> 00:46:34,040
Speaker 1: what we were talking about earlier. UM, we talked about

802
00:46:34,040 --> 00:46:37,920
Speaker 1: it specifically for women that conscientious women tend to a

803
00:46:38,360 --> 00:46:43,200
Speaker 1: take more emotional labor and responsibility on and be face

804
00:46:43,320 --> 00:46:46,799
Speaker 1: more pressure to just like get the one sweet spot

805
00:46:46,840 --> 00:46:48,960
Speaker 1: that's going to be acceptable for them at work. And

806
00:46:49,000 --> 00:46:51,360
Speaker 1: I think people of color, and particularly women of color,

807
00:46:52,400 --> 00:46:56,520
Speaker 1: face something very similar, if if not more difficult to

808
00:46:56,560 --> 00:46:59,840
Speaker 1: deal with, where only a very narrow range of emotions

809
00:46:59,840 --> 00:47:03,840
Speaker 1: acceptable to display at work, for instance, And that's exhausting

810
00:47:03,960 --> 00:47:07,759
Speaker 1: to function like that all the time. It is so exhausting.

811
00:47:08,520 --> 00:47:11,440
Speaker 1: And this pretty much brings us to the end of

812
00:47:11,480 --> 00:47:14,319
Speaker 1: this episode, but I would really love for listeners to

813
00:47:14,320 --> 00:47:17,960
Speaker 1: write in if they've experienced this, and Allison, please report

814
00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:20,280
Speaker 1: back if you find out that your husband doesn't stressed,

815
00:47:20,280 --> 00:47:25,560
Speaker 1: are burnt out about the holidays, and quis him. Thank

816
00:47:25,600 --> 00:47:29,520
Speaker 1: you so much for joining us. Where can people find you?

817
00:47:30,360 --> 00:47:33,839
Speaker 1: I am online at ask a Manager dot org and

818
00:47:33,960 --> 00:47:37,560
Speaker 1: my podcast is ask a Manager, and my book is

819
00:47:37,719 --> 00:47:41,840
Speaker 1: Ask a Manager How to navigate clueless colleagues, lunch stealing bosses,

820
00:47:42,000 --> 00:47:46,520
Speaker 1: and the rest of your life at work lunch stealing bosses,

821
00:47:49,560 --> 00:47:54,560
Speaker 1: that's the same, they're out there. I had to tell

822
00:47:54,600 --> 00:47:57,719
Speaker 1: that person to buy a locking lunch box and that

823
00:47:57,840 --> 00:48:02,160
Speaker 1: solved it. Actually, really, what if it had escalated and

824
00:48:02,160 --> 00:48:05,880
Speaker 1: the boss had taken the lunch box. Yeah, I know,

825
00:48:06,080 --> 00:48:08,080
Speaker 1: or brought in some kind of like I don't know

826
00:48:08,120 --> 00:48:10,200
Speaker 1: what that equipment is that they break locks with. Yes,

827
00:48:10,239 --> 00:48:12,600
Speaker 1: I know. This boss was determined. And actually my letter

828
00:48:12,640 --> 00:48:15,600
Speaker 1: writer had all of these dietary restrictions, so it wasn't

829
00:48:15,640 --> 00:48:17,440
Speaker 1: like she could just go out and buy herself lunch.

830
00:48:17,440 --> 00:48:19,319
Speaker 1: After her lunch was stolen, she had to eat what

831
00:48:19,400 --> 00:48:22,200
Speaker 1: she brought in and he was stealing it, so the

832
00:48:22,280 --> 00:48:25,080
Speaker 1: lock was the way to go. People are so rude,

833
00:48:25,480 --> 00:48:29,440
Speaker 1: I do are bizarre that it's pretty strange. I do

834
00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:35,160
Speaker 1: love the politics around the office kitchen, in our in

835
00:48:35,200 --> 00:48:38,399
Speaker 1: our office, It's led to some hilarity. Some conversations I've

836
00:48:38,440 --> 00:48:41,600
Speaker 1: overheard that have given me a chuckle. Oh it's yeah.

837
00:48:41,600 --> 00:48:43,719
Speaker 1: There's I mean, there's lunch staffs. There's the fact that

838
00:48:43,719 --> 00:48:45,879
Speaker 1: no one will clean the crumbs off the counter. There's

839
00:48:45,920 --> 00:48:48,640
Speaker 1: the disgusting things that people cook in the office microwave.

840
00:48:48,760 --> 00:48:51,680
Speaker 1: It's an endless source of drama. Oh. I had such

841
00:48:51,719 --> 00:48:55,400
Speaker 1: a conundrum last year because I brought in a dish

842
00:48:55,400 --> 00:48:57,800
Speaker 1: that had fish in it and I was like torn

843
00:48:57,880 --> 00:49:01,320
Speaker 1: all day and I didn't I just ate it. Yes,

844
00:49:01,600 --> 00:49:04,680
Speaker 1: I get a lot of complaints about fish microwavers. I

845
00:49:04,760 --> 00:49:07,600
Speaker 1: knew I would never people would never look at me

846
00:49:07,640 --> 00:49:12,480
Speaker 1: the same again, It's true. Anyway. You can find Allison

847
00:49:13,000 --> 00:49:16,600
Speaker 1: online and you can find us online as well. We

848
00:49:16,640 --> 00:49:18,600
Speaker 1: would love to hear from you. You can email us

849
00:49:18,680 --> 00:49:21,440
Speaker 1: at mom Stuff at how stuff works dot com. You

850
00:49:21,480 --> 00:49:24,560
Speaker 1: can find us on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast and

851
00:49:24,600 --> 00:49:27,520
Speaker 1: on Instagram at Stuff Moon Never told you. Thanks as

852
00:49:27,560 --> 00:49:30,399
Speaker 1: always to our producer Andrew Howard, and thanks to you

853
00:49:30,640 --> 00:49:31,240
Speaker 1: for listening.