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Speaker 1: Hey, it's Holly. Just a quick note before we start.

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Speaker 1: If you're enjoying Because the Buss Belongs to Us so far,

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Speaker 1: please tell people. It makes a huge difference to us

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Speaker 1: if you like, subscribe and review the show on your

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Speaker 1: listening platform, and if you literally just tell your friends

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Speaker 1: to listen. We are on a mission, after all, and

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Speaker 1: for the sake of science, we need as many people

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Speaker 1: as possible to go on this journey with us to

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Speaker 1: get Bruce recognized.

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Speaker 2: As a queer icon.

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Speaker 3: You can do your bit too, And a producer note

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Speaker 3: from me. This episode contains a discussion of homophobic verbal abuse.

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Speaker 3: Take care listening.

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Speaker 2: Is Bruce Camp?

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Speaker 3: Yes he is.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: This is episode three of Because the Bus Belongs to Us,

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Speaker 3: a podcast where two nerds who are convinced that Bruce

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Speaker 3: Bristeen is a queer icon spend seven episodes on a

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Speaker 3: question to get everyone else on our sidetam I'm Jesse

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Speaker 3: and I'm.

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Speaker 2: Holly, and we are riding high of a huge win.

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Speaker 1: That's right, folks, it's official, Bruce Springsteen is Camp.

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Speaker 3: We have ticked off the first light on our airtight

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Speaker 3: queer icon checklist that we made up an episode one.

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Speaker 2: Now the checklist Item two.

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Speaker 4: I'm in a mixed CD for a girlfriend I had

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Speaker 4: written in SHARPI you, Me and all the stuff We're

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Speaker 4: so scared of, which is the line from Tunnel of Love.

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Speaker 3: This is writer and Bruce Mega fan Naomi Gordon Lebou.

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Speaker 4: And I love that line. It's like the lights go

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Speaker 4: out and it's just the three of us, You, Me

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Speaker 4: and all the stuff We're so scared of.

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Speaker 3: Naomi wrote a really seminal article for The Nation back

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Speaker 3: in twenty nineteen called The Queerness of Bruce Springsteen. It

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Speaker 3: was one of the first pieces of queer Bruce content

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Speaker 3: that I read, aside from Holly scenes.

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Speaker 1: Naomi is a wordsmith, and that's why they're are experts.

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Speaker 2: For this episode.

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Speaker 1: We need someone who can dive deep into lyrics and

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Speaker 1: get their head around the myths and stories that Bruce tells.

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Speaker 1: We caught Nami up on where We've got to you

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Speaker 1: so far on our queer icons checklist.

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Speaker 5: Honestly, it's going pretty well so far us so.

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Speaker 3: Our first tech point there was that queer icons have

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Speaker 3: to be camp and that is like an esthetic choice,

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Speaker 3: but it's also this like vibe, this truth telling, this

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Speaker 3: like way of being that queer people recognize. And we

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Speaker 3: have just woken to some camp experts and they agree

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Speaker 3: with us that Bruce is camp.

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Speaker 5: I'm sure that you're ald degree to I do agree.

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Speaker 3: And our next checkpoint item, which is what we wanted

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Speaker 3: to talk to you about, is we need to be

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Speaker 3: able to identify with them as an underdog, making them

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Speaker 3: relatable to the queer experience.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I think underdogs is a great word for it. Actually,

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Speaker 4: I really like that, and I also think it's a

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Speaker 4: great word for Bruce.

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Speaker 1: And there you have it, Naomi, god and Marble says,

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Speaker 1: Bruce is an underdog.

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Speaker 3: Thank you for listening to episode three because the bust

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Speaker 3: alongst us.

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Speaker 5: Okay, we're joking.

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Speaker 1: We are professional queers in Stem. We're gonna need more

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Speaker 1: evidence than that to see if Bruce really can be

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Speaker 1: seen as an underdog.

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Speaker 2: That's after the break, we're back.

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Speaker 3: Talking to Naomi Gordon leb about the second item on

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Speaker 3: our mate Bruce being seen a queer icon checklist? Can

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Speaker 3: he be seen as an underdog? Since Naomi was a kid,

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Speaker 3: they found themes in Bruce's music that felt relatable to

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Speaker 3: their struggles as a queer person.

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Speaker 4: I think I was always drawn to his gender admired it,

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Speaker 4: related to it, like wanted to emulate it, and he

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Speaker 4: just like had the exact aesthetic that I wanted for

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Speaker 4: myself as a kid who was like a mask kid,

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Speaker 4: like a kid who always felt like a boy. Even

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Speaker 4: though we think of him, or I think of him,

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Speaker 4: and I think a lot of people think of him

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Speaker 4: as this kind of like icon of masculinity. Actually, so

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Speaker 4: much of his music is about having a pretty complicated

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Speaker 4: relationship to masculinity and struggling with it and feeling like

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Speaker 4: never enough or never the right kind of masculine, or

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Speaker 4: like feeling not right in some way. Have you guys

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Speaker 4: heard the live recording of The River that's like twelve

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Speaker 4: minutes long where he talks about his dad? Yes, yeah,

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Speaker 4: I haven't, Oh Jesse, you gotta listen to okay. And

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Speaker 4: there's like a twelve minute long or fourteen minute long whatever,

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Speaker 4: live recording of the River, And during it he does

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Speaker 4: the thing that he often does, which is he tells

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Speaker 4: this long story that sounds very off the cuff, but

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Speaker 4: I think it's actually probably pretty practiced, and it's a

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Speaker 4: story about his dad. He talks about how his dad

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Speaker 4: was always on his case and always giving him a

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Speaker 4: really hard time about his hair being long, or saying

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Speaker 4: to him, when the army gets you, they're going to

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Speaker 4: make a man out of you.

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Speaker 1: These beautifully crafted, intimate reflections are a big part of

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Speaker 1: Bruce's live shows. I've seen him live so many times

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Speaker 1: at this point that stories like this are really familiar

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Speaker 1: to me. By my seventh show of The Wrecking Bottle,

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Speaker 1: I could almost talk along with him like I'd learned

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Speaker 1: these stories as lyrics. But it doesn't matter. The emotion

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Speaker 1: is always there. You feel like the luckiest person in

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Speaker 1: the world to hear about Bruce's internal life. The story

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Speaker 1: he tells in this particular live recording of the River

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Speaker 1: goes pretty deep into the struggles he had with his

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Speaker 1: dad's expectations of masculinity.

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Speaker 4: It's about him being an underdog right, not being able

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Speaker 4: to live up to whatever the expectations are of him. Which,

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Speaker 4: really I think that really shows is that, of course

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Speaker 4: all of these things are constructed, and ultimately this like

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Speaker 4: myth in our culture that masculinity or femininity or any

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Speaker 4: like traditional gender rules or gender expressions are kind of

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Speaker 4: just like biological and endemic to who we are. His

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Speaker 4: music is in some ways about like what a falsehood

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Speaker 4: that is right, which is very queer.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, in some ways, you know, you've got like AT's

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Speaker 3: muscle Breece and you've got these like esthetics and things.

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Speaker 3: But then he sings a song like real Man. The

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Speaker 3: chorus of real Man is He's that you can be

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Speaker 3: on your chest, well any monkey can, but you make

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Speaker 3: me feel like a real man. He's like, my deep

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Speaker 3: romantic will love for you. It's whats my gender?

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Speaker 5: And I find that really really comforting as someone who's

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Speaker 5: trying to navigate what are those things?

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Speaker 2: I think?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that Bruce. I mean, I'm not gonna

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Speaker 4: say he's like some kind of perfect feminist, and frankly,

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Speaker 4: I just don't really know what his feminist politics are like.

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Speaker 4: But I do think he's critical to some extent of

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Speaker 4: masculinity and I appreciate that, Like I appreciate the ways

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Speaker 4: that he talks about the taboo and kind of stigma

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Speaker 4: around mental health struggles for men, Like I appreciate how

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Speaker 4: honest and transparent he is about his mental health and

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Speaker 4: his book.

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Speaker 5: If we're looking for a sense of struggle from Bruce, something.

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Speaker 3: That we can look to and think he's been through

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Speaker 3: stuff like I've been through and he survived, so I

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Speaker 3: will too. His relationship to masculinity could be one of

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Speaker 3: those things.

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Speaker 5: I want to believe that.

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Speaker 3: Bruce is aware of masculinity as a thing that's separate

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Speaker 3: from sexual gender and the complicated ways that plays out

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Speaker 3: in a world that has expectations for you based on

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Speaker 3: the gender you're assigned at birth. So that plus his

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Speaker 3: intentional vulnerability around his own emotions.

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Speaker 5: Feels like the kind of struggle we could see ourselves in.

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Speaker 4: One of the ways that I see him singing about

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Speaker 4: being an underdog in ways that we can kind of

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Speaker 4: rude for him is he's singing about working people in

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Speaker 4: the United States and like the great myths is the

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Speaker 4: American Dream.

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Speaker 1: We were just talking about Bruce's speech in the live

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Speaker 1: version of the River, but the lyrics in the song

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Speaker 1: itself are a great example of Bruce's writing on class.

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Speaker 4: First walled about his sister, really and it's about these

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Speaker 4: two people who get married and they're really in love

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Speaker 4: and then like all the difficulties of real life as

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Speaker 4: a working class person, kind of like seep in.

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Speaker 1: The couple in the song grew up with big dreams

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Speaker 1: for their lives, which are quickly dashed when the girl

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Speaker 1: ends up pregnant while she's still at school. They marry young,

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Speaker 1: and the guy spends his life working hard physical jobs,

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Speaker 1: struggling to earn enough to support his family.

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Speaker 4: Romance becomes harder as like economic struggle becomes more real.

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Speaker 3: The guy in the river keeps comparing the way he

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Speaker 3: imagined his life would go and the much more challenging

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Speaker 3: reality that he's ended up with. That's pretending to not

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Speaker 3: remember those dreams and his wife pretends not to care.

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Speaker 3: You can really imagine this couple sitting next to each

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Speaker 3: other on the sofa watching TV, silently holding their disappointments

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Speaker 3: with the circumstances life has dealt them.

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Speaker 1: He sings, is a dream a lie that don't come true?

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Speaker 1: Or is it something worse? So many of Bruce's songs

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Speaker 1: are about imagining another better life as possible dreams are

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Speaker 1: running away and living a life of adventure and romance,

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Speaker 1: and this line really stands out apart from those other songs.

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Speaker 1: It's about grieving missed opportunities and the pain of even

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Speaker 1: letting yourself want something more.

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Speaker 4: But the refrain of the song and the chorus is

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Speaker 4: all about sort of that there's still this element of

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Speaker 4: romance there.

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Speaker 1: The refrain of the song is about the couple going

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Speaker 1: down to the river they used to swim in when

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Speaker 1: they were young and first in love. Even when they're

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Speaker 1: older and disillusioned, even when the river is dry, the

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Speaker 1: couple keep returning to this place where once they felt

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Speaker 1: free together.

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Speaker 4: I think that that feeling of like kind of magic

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Speaker 4: between you and another person, finding ways to make it

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Speaker 4: possible even when things are really hard and are not

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Speaker 4: they don't match the script we've been given for what

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Speaker 4: romance looks like, that where everything's perfect and easy. I

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Speaker 4: think that's a really distinctly queer feeling too, and maybe

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Speaker 4: that's partly why I.

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Speaker 5: Connected with that song.

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Speaker 3: This comes up again and another of Naomi's favorite Bruce songs.

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Speaker 4: Tougher than the Rest, is infurious song about how Bruce

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Speaker 4: is not like all these other boyfriends that someone could have.

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Speaker 1: The song because some girls they want a handsome damn

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Speaker 1: or some good looking jar on their arms. Some girls

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Speaker 1: like a sweet, talking room ya. Bruce is none of

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Speaker 1: those things, but he's tough. The song is not like

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Speaker 1: I'm tough, I'll protect you.

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Speaker 4: He's saying I'm tough I'm here for the real shit,

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Speaker 4: Like I'm here to go through hard things with you.

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Speaker 4: Life is hard, Like there are hard things, and like

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Speaker 4: I'm someone who can walk beside you through them.

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Speaker 1: I like that because it's not like a typical strength

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Speaker 1: of like I I'll protect you, like, don't worry about this,

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Speaker 1: It's gonna be fine. It's like a strength through vulnerability.

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Speaker 1: He's never he never shies away from vulnerability. He's like

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Speaker 1: very open to like this scares me. I'm faithful of this.

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Speaker 1: I don't know what's around the corner, but let's let's

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Speaker 1: go together.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: I love that, Holly.

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Speaker 2: I love the way but that that's exactly right.

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Speaker 4: He's not afraid to talk about being afraid and this

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Speaker 4: feeling of like I don't know what's around the corner,

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Speaker 4: but we've got each other. We're gonna look around the

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Speaker 4: corner together. I think of it as a really queer

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Speaker 4: thing too.

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Speaker 1: Naomi felt something similar to this. One night when they

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Speaker 1: were in college. They were sitting out in the porch

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Speaker 1: with their brand new girlfriend.

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Speaker 4: Making out and just being super happy and like totally

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Speaker 4: oblivious to the world around us, just wrapped up in

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Speaker 4: each other.

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Speaker 3: And then this Copp was a full of drunk men.

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Speaker 4: And shine this like bright flashlight out of their window

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Speaker 4: so that we couldn't see them.

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Speaker 1: They started shouting a bunch of grim threatening things at

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Speaker 1: Naomi and their partner.

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Speaker 4: She needs a real man, like come over her and

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Speaker 4: I'm gonna show you what a real dick can do,

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Speaker 4: like that kind of thing. And it was horrible. Obviously,

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Speaker 4: it was like terrifying and upsetting, but it also had

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Speaker 4: this thing of like disrupting this moment of just like

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Speaker 4: blisp between us.

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Speaker 3: This is still so often part of queer dating, especially

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Speaker 3: when you're also trans also POC. Part of your love

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Speaker 3: story is this low level threat of violence from the public.

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Speaker 4: We know that there are people and places in the

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Speaker 4: world that are hostile to us, but we are together

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Speaker 4: in it. And I feel like that is a kind

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Speaker 4: of intimacy that is wrapped up in being a queer person.

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Speaker 4: I'm thinking of I'm on fire when he talks about

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Speaker 4: waking up, uh freight train running through the middle of

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Speaker 4: his head. Yeah, he's not singing about queerness, but I

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Speaker 4: think this feeling of like a freight train running through

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Speaker 4: the middle of your head, this feeling of like there's

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Speaker 4: something that's so achy and so insistent that it wakes

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Speaker 4: you up in the middle of the night a certain

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Speaker 4: kind of pain. It is like very real to me

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Speaker 4: and very queer.

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Speaker 1: Also, he's just so fucking emo, Like that imagery is

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Speaker 1: so like he can tell. It's almost like he's a thet,

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Speaker 1: a nerd or something, you know what I mean. It's

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Speaker 1: just like so over the top imagery.

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Speaker 4: It's so true. He's so emo. I love that description

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Speaker 4: of Bruce. He's so emo. It's true, he really is.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes I do worry that loneliness is like the ultimate

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Speaker 1: queer feeling really paints into a corners, just like that's

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Speaker 1: how fait, We're just doomed to be lonely. But it's

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Speaker 1: a different type of loneliness. It's that disconnected like I

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Speaker 1: need my people, I need a future, I need hoop,

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Speaker 1: I need healthcare, or needs somebody.

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Speaker 2: Who gets what this is. Like, it's a.

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Speaker 1: Real physical like, oh, I feel like I'm torn away

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Speaker 1: from something.

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Speaker 4: That is the other side of Bruce's music as I

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Speaker 4: feel like he expresses this fundamental yearning, but he also

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Speaker 4: there's always a sort of hint of like, but there's

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Speaker 4: something else out there for us, you know. It's very beautiful,

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Speaker 4: and I think classic underdoc I would say.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so in terms of our chatlist, we're looking pretty good.

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Speaker 1: Naomi definitely thinks there are struggles in Bruce's stories that

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Speaker 1: feel relatable to the queer experience.

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Speaker 3: But and forgive me for saying this, who is Bruce

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Speaker 3: brings Seen which Bruce Bringsteen are we talking about here?

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Speaker 3: Some of Bruce's songs are about him, but sometimes he's

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Speaker 3: singing it from the perspective of a character he's made up.

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Speaker 3: We can definitely relate to lots of different struggles in

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Speaker 3: the lyrics of his songs. But what about Bruce the

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Speaker 3: man himself?

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Speaker 1: That's next, Holly Jesse, because the boss belongs to us.

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Speaker 3: Before the Break, Naomi made a strong argument for a

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Speaker 3: bunch of themes in Bruce's song and the stories he

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Speaker 3: tells being relatable to the queer experience, and Holly made

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Speaker 3: the case that he's an emo, and both of those

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Speaker 3: things are important entry.

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Speaker 1: But we're still not quite satisfied in our agenda point

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Speaker 1: underdog status right now, it's hard to separate the man

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Speaker 1: from the music. Is Bruce an underdog or is it

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Speaker 1: just the characters in his songs? Does that even matter

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Speaker 1: if we can take our own meanings from them.

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Speaker 6: Early on, I knew I had a bad desire from

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Speaker 6: bailing my fists into my eyes and blasting thunder road.

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Speaker 6: In Bruce, I found a safer masculinity, a weight of

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Speaker 6: place to put that longing, a boyhood. You're not mad

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Speaker 6: enough for me to hate woman enough for kissing. This

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Speaker 6: yearning inspired a move across the sea to set free

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Speaker 6: that bad desire. I changed my clothes, my hair, my face,

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Speaker 6: and somewhere I met a similar heart who shared that

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Speaker 6: bad desire. And sometimes weel it with our four heads

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Speaker 6: pressed together.

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Speaker 1: That's one of my friends, Lex reading a Bruce Springsteen

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Speaker 1: inspired love poem that they wrote for their partner Legs.

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Speaker 3: Sometimes we yell it with our four heads pressed together.

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Speaker 3: I feel that so much in my little heart.

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Speaker 1: Lex is another of my friends that I met through

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Speaker 1: being queers who love Bruce Springsteen. They actually live in

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Speaker 1: New Jersey in Asbury Park. Every day they walk around

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Speaker 1: on the same street that Bruce has walked on a

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Speaker 1: million times, And.

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Speaker 3: Since Bruce Springsteen is of course from New Jersey, we

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Speaker 3: needed a person on the ground who could take us

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Speaker 3: around Bruce's home to to understand where he came from.

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Speaker 1: Our exec producer, Jasmine JT. Green went to visit Lex

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Speaker 1: at their flat in Asbury Park.

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Speaker 5: High Works.

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Speaker 7: Good to see her too. It's beautiful, there's so much stuff.

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Speaker 1: Lex moved to Asbury Park partly because they love Bruce

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Speaker 1: Springsteen so much. They were born in New York but

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Speaker 1: grew up in England. They'd visit New Jersey as a

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Speaker 1: teenager and always just vibed with the culture of it.

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Speaker 6: Michael Maca, Romancebury, Springsteen, the Sopranos, Weird New Jersey, the magazine.

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Speaker 6: This state has everything to offer. You've got mountains, beach,

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Speaker 6: farmland city. If you want it, it's got it, and

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Speaker 6: it's got people that are incredibly honest. I just fell

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Speaker 6: in love with it. Weirdly, it just became a goal

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Speaker 6: to move here. So when the opportunity arose, I thought,

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Speaker 6: let's do it. That's what brought me to New Jersey,

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Speaker 6: almost like a fandom magic, Like I was just obsessed

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Speaker 6: with it. New Jersey, specifically Asbury Park, was the space

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Speaker 6: that I was able to start the medicalized side of

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Speaker 6: my transition.

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Speaker 7: And then from being here for it will be my

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Speaker 7: fish year.

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Speaker 6: You know, I've found myself and I've grown from being

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Speaker 6: this very scared human being, scared and shy human being

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Speaker 6: into I'm still shy, but I'm not scared anymore. Like

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Speaker 6: I'm living as myself, and I don't think I could

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Speaker 6: have achieved that in any other state.

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Speaker 7: Alongside the culture that I get, it was with.

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Speaker 6: Bruce's music that when I first arrived, I thought I'd

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Speaker 6: assimilate into straight culture, which is.

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Speaker 7: Which is such a joke now considering.

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Speaker 6: But it's also with Bruce how I strengthened a lot

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Speaker 6: of my queer relationships. He's one of us folx.

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Speaker 1: The myth and folklore of Bruce Springsteen is totally bound

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Speaker 1: up with the myth and folklore of New Jersey itself.

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Speaker 1: New Jersey is an underdog in its own right.

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Speaker 7: People are horrible about this state.

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Speaker 6: They are negligent towards the art that comes out of it,

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Speaker 6: the people that come out of it.

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Speaker 7: It's almost like a throwaway for some folks.

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Speaker 6: And that's why Bruce, I think, is such an important

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Speaker 6: icon for this state. He's been able to shine a

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Speaker 6: light into a space that's usually ignored or just sort

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Speaker 6: of like thrown away.

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Speaker 3: Lexic Jasmine on a tour of some of their Bruce

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Speaker 3: Bits of New Jersey.

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Speaker 1: They started at Convention Hall, a big exhibition center on

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Speaker 1: the boardwalk in Osbury Park.

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Speaker 6: I love this building because it's old, and there's not

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Speaker 6: that many old buildings that have been kept quite like this.

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Speaker 6: It's looking a little bit worse for wear, but it's

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Speaker 6: still got a lot of character.

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Speaker 7: I think, like for me, it feels like an old

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Speaker 7: train station, is what it looks like.

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Speaker 6: It feels like it does emulate a train station, but

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Speaker 6: it is just it is just a space with bars

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Speaker 6: as a theater and then a hall as well.

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Speaker 3: Convention Hall hosted the premiere of Blinded by the Lights,

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Speaker 3: a film based on the memoir of journalist Sarfresmunzo, who

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Speaker 3: moved to England at three years old from Pakistan in

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Speaker 3: nineteen seventy four. As a teenager in a very white

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Speaker 3: neighborhood in the late eighties, sar Forrest found meaning in

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Speaker 3: Bruce Springsteen's music. On the day of the premiere, Lex

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Speaker 3: was working at a soap shot inside Convention Hall that evening.

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Speaker 6: I was just doing my job and I started to

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Speaker 6: hear people yelling Bruce, like just yelling Bruce. And I

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Speaker 6: don't know if you've heard more than fifty people say

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Speaker 6: the same name.

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Speaker 7: It's pretty jarring.

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Speaker 6: So I ran outside the shop to see what was

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Speaker 6: going on, and it turned out that he had actually

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Speaker 6: turned up for this premiere. And I stood on a

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Speaker 6: box and I cried like old white men cry at

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Speaker 6: football whilst I looked at this man walk in to

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Speaker 6: see his film in the city that loves him so much.

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Speaker 6: And then after the screening he walked straight across and

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Speaker 6: did a small show in the hall opposite, and it

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Speaker 6: was a moment.

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Speaker 7: Of just pure bliss.

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Speaker 6: This person that I'd made up to be this like

400
00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:06,600
Speaker 6: myth this gender marker almost for me like this, like yeah,

401
00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:09,440
Speaker 6: everything that I wanted to be was just stood there,

402
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Speaker 6: casually walking and just soaking it all up, like really

403
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Speaker 6: humbly as well. And I think it's probably my casual

404
00:22:16,359 --> 00:22:20,840
Speaker 6: Bruce story. Everybody has one here, whether it's they've seen

405
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Speaker 6: him do a shot of tequila or they've just waved

406
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Speaker 6: at him on the beach, like every person that has them.

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Speaker 6: That day, I got my New Jersey points.

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Speaker 7: I guess.

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Speaker 1: Bruce Ringsteen has such an interesting image in New Jersey.

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Speaker 1: He's at once a real man who everyone seems to

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Speaker 1: have a story about seeing in the flesh, and he's

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Speaker 1: the stuff of myth imagend. Every place Lex and Chasmine

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Speaker 1: walk past has a Bruce story attached to it.

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Speaker 7: Maybe you can duck into the arning. Yeah, you think

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Speaker 7: they'll kick us out.

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Speaker 6: So we are looking directly at the Stone Pony music

417
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Speaker 6: venue in Asbury Park.

418
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Speaker 7: It's tiny inside.

419
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Speaker 6: It looks ginormous, but the actual bar is minuscule. The

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Speaker 6: Stone Pony is actually in front of the in front

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Speaker 6: of Porter, which is the building in which Clarence Clements

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Speaker 6: and Bruce Springsteen met.

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Speaker 1: Clarence Clemens is such an important figure in New Jersey

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Speaker 1: and in Bruce Sprinkstein's life. He was Bruce Brinstein's best

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Speaker 1: friend and saxophonist. The building Lex and Jasmin are standing

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Speaker 1: outside Porter used to be called the Student Prince.

427
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Speaker 3: As the myth goes on a dark and stormy night,

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Speaker 3: Clarence went to the Student Prince to see Bruce and

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Speaker 3: his band play.

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Speaker 6: It's rumored that when Clarence Clemens went to open the door,

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Speaker 6: the wind took it down the streets. So it's kind

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Speaker 6: of it's a nice effect that it's so windy for

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00:24:01,359 --> 00:24:05,600
Speaker 6: us today, because it's as windy probably as it.

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00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:06,960
Speaker 7: Was that very night, right.

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00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:10,639
Speaker 6: So the stone pony itself is monochromatic, So there's a

436
00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:13,119
Speaker 6: big black pony painted on the side of it, and

437
00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:15,240
Speaker 6: it's got giant letters as well, so you can't miss

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Speaker 6: it from whichever direction you're looking at. And that is

439
00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:23,040
Speaker 6: in contrast to Porter, which is a big blue rectangle building.

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Speaker 7: I think, so you're fine, have a nice day, guys.

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00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:34,440
Speaker 7: Where did I leave it distracting?

442
00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:35,440
Speaker 2: No?

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00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:38,199
Speaker 7: No, I mean like people think you're like the the

444
00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:43,520
Speaker 7: unofficial person of the I wonder why.

445
00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:47,560
Speaker 2: It's a couple of people color outside.

446
00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:58,479
Speaker 7: Yeah, so just like he sorry, the rumbling wind. All right,

447
00:24:58,520 --> 00:24:59,479
Speaker 7: So we're heading back to the car.

448
00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:05,800
Speaker 3: Next on the tour Lextic Jasmine to Freehold, where Bruce

449
00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:06,239
Speaker 3: grew up.

450
00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:15,040
Speaker 6: Yeah, I think you're on my liming visible and this

451
00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:18,640
Speaker 6: object is not a good I'm just gonna hold my hands.

452
00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:24,320
Speaker 6: So we are in Freehold looking at the building in

453
00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:28,480
Speaker 6: which is in place of the rugmill factory where Bruce's

454
00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:31,600
Speaker 6: dad used to work. I think it's important to note

455
00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:36,879
Speaker 6: that on our way here, driving here, there was a

456
00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:41,200
Speaker 6: sense of tension that filled the car. I think where

457
00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:43,320
Speaker 6: we saw a change in the flags. No longer were

458
00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:48,359
Speaker 6: they're Pride flags. It was instead a lot of cop flags,

459
00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:51,159
Speaker 6: a lot of American flags, which is a different kind

460
00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:54,879
Speaker 6: of standard to what I'm used to. I don't know,

461
00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:58,040
Speaker 6: things just feel a little bit more tight, like you

462
00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:01,840
Speaker 6: can't breathe, like there isn't space to do anything else.

463
00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:04,600
Speaker 7: I don't know, how do you feel like?

464
00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:07,840
Speaker 6: It was a sense of like there was like a

465
00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:12,639
Speaker 6: bit of a warmness that was in Asbury that coming

466
00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:15,960
Speaker 6: here is very much like the sense.

467
00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:20,800
Speaker 7: That I usually feel whenever I go to any sort

468
00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:23,560
Speaker 7: of suburban space. And this is not me.

469
00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:27,080
Speaker 6: I'm sure there are pockets of freehold that are beautiful

470
00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:30,200
Speaker 6: and really kind and welcoming, But where und stood right now,

471
00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:31,280
Speaker 6: I don't see that.

472
00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:37,520
Speaker 1: Lex and Jasmine are stood looking at an apartment block

473
00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:40,760
Speaker 1: where the factory once stood, where Bruce Springsteen's dad worked.

474
00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:44,800
Speaker 1: Factory is one of my all time favorite Springsteen songs,

475
00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:46,920
Speaker 1: and it reminds me so much of my dad.

476
00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:50,760
Speaker 3: Through the mansions of fear, through the mansions of pain,

477
00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:53,800
Speaker 3: I see my daddy walking through them factory gates in

478
00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:54,240
Speaker 3: the rain.

479
00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:58,520
Speaker 1: My dad worked in the textile factory, very similar to

480
00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:01,600
Speaker 1: the environment Bruce's dad worked for about thirty five years

481
00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:04,919
Speaker 1: for my entire childhood. I watched him walk through the

482
00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:09,240
Speaker 1: gate to this huge, imposing, old stone warehouse. As a kid,

483
00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:11,840
Speaker 1: I was so so proud of my dad. He was

484
00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:15,400
Speaker 1: my hero, going off to this important, physically demanding job.

485
00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:19,040
Speaker 1: But that job ultimately wrecked his health and chipped away

486
00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:19,800
Speaker 1: at who he was.

487
00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:23,960
Speaker 3: Back toor he takes his hearing back to, he gives

488
00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:29,280
Speaker 3: him life, the work. We're working, just the working life.

489
00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:32,680
Speaker 1: My dad's factory closed down years ago, but the building

490
00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:35,280
Speaker 1: is still there, he says, it's all been sold off

491
00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:38,720
Speaker 1: to random companies. Now there's a new apartment block standing

492
00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:40,520
Speaker 1: where Bruce's dad's factory used to be.

493
00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:45,200
Speaker 7: It's just a hepo concrete. It doesn't have the same feel.

494
00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:49,879
Speaker 1: Over forty years after Bruce wrote the song Factory, there

495
00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:53,560
Speaker 1: are still people with few options but to work physically demanding,

496
00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:56,879
Speaker 1: low paid jobs that don't leave space for actually getting

497
00:27:56,920 --> 00:28:00,399
Speaker 1: to live your life. New Jersey might look very different

498
00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:03,040
Speaker 1: to how it did in the seventies, but when Springsteen

499
00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:06,679
Speaker 1: plays Factory live, even today, it still stands as a

500
00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:08,960
Speaker 1: contemporary anthem for working class hardship.

501
00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:14,080
Speaker 6: So that escaping, that needing to get out, you know, that,

502
00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:17,680
Speaker 6: to me is the essence of an underdog. You've gotta go,

503
00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:20,280
Speaker 6: you got to go, and you'll do anything to make

504
00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:28,720
Speaker 6: sure you don't have to go back. Even though he

505
00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:31,600
Speaker 6: was not a factory worker, he's still writing about an

506
00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:35,719
Speaker 6: experience that is helpful and honest for a lot of people.

507
00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:37,879
Speaker 6: That's why his music is so good, because people can

508
00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:41,960
Speaker 6: put themselves in his shoes, right, and that's how he's

509
00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:46,920
Speaker 6: able to be so relatable. He still taps into that

510
00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:51,000
Speaker 6: underdog status for these people like that they think that

511
00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:53,880
Speaker 6: he's achieved all that there possibly is. He is still there,

512
00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:59,240
Speaker 6: Bruce Springsteen. I just think because every generation feels that

513
00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:03,200
Speaker 6: way at some point the life, out of touch, undesirable,

514
00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:05,800
Speaker 6: people who feel like they're on the bottom of the heap,

515
00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:07,880
Speaker 6: because that's a feeling that doesn't go away.

516
00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:09,040
Speaker 4: You know.

517
00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:13,600
Speaker 1: It's an amazing skill that Bruce Springsteen has. He's now

518
00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:17,480
Speaker 1: a multi millionaire, but he somehow manages to stay relevant,

519
00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:20,480
Speaker 1: stay loved by this city, and have people who were

520
00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:25,320
Speaker 1: demographically so different to him still find him relatable. But

521
00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:29,040
Speaker 1: how deep does that relatability actually go if it merely

522
00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:32,200
Speaker 1: comes from lyrics written before he made his millions? When's

523
00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:33,160
Speaker 1: the expiration date?

524
00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:37,040
Speaker 6: It's really hard to see him as an underdog when

525
00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:40,400
Speaker 6: you know he has like so much money, you know,

526
00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:42,360
Speaker 6: like the wealth right there.

527
00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:46,200
Speaker 3: Right Until recently, Lex has felt frustrated by Bruce's lack

528
00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:47,680
Speaker 3: of investment in his hometown.

529
00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:50,000
Speaker 6: You know, it was a little disheartening being here and

530
00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:54,120
Speaker 6: seeing spaces that were being dilapidate, that were becoming you know,

531
00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:58,239
Speaker 6: we're almost turning into to rubble and ruin when they

532
00:29:58,320 --> 00:29:59,920
Speaker 6: were meant to be so important to him.

533
00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:02,400
Speaker 3: He has donated to a bunch of different things in

534
00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:05,280
Speaker 3: New Jersey over the years, But what does that even mean?

535
00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:10,880
Speaker 3: Can philanthropy be counted as solidarity? Especially if it's proportionately

536
00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:14,840
Speaker 3: such a small amount of your wealth When you've reached

537
00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:18,440
Speaker 3: that level of financial success, hundreds of millions of dollars,

538
00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:21,080
Speaker 3: multiple huge properties, no longer worrying.

539
00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:21,840
Speaker 5: If you can make.

540
00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:26,040
Speaker 3: Rent, or afford healthcare or support your family financially, can

541
00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:27,160
Speaker 3: you still be an underdog?

542
00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:34,280
Speaker 5: What a question? Yeah.

543
00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:38,040
Speaker 3: Also, if Bruce's lyrics appeal to people who have felt

544
00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:41,360
Speaker 3: downtrodden in life in different ways, it makes sense.

545
00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:43,840
Speaker 5: That he's got a very broad fan base.

546
00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:46,960
Speaker 3: Almost anyone can hear his lyrics and feel seen by

547
00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:48,560
Speaker 3: them in a.

548
00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:49,719
Speaker 5: Way that's really beautiful.

549
00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:52,240
Speaker 3: But it also means that he attracts groups of fans

550
00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:54,400
Speaker 3: who don't necessarily relate to each other.

551
00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:57,600
Speaker 6: Like when I went to go see him, it was

552
00:30:57,640 --> 00:30:59,960
Speaker 6: a very interesting crowd, you know. It was a very

553
00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:03,800
Speaker 6: like why heteronormative from where I was.

554
00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:07,280
Speaker 1: Yeah. So I have been to see Bruce a lot

555
00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:10,760
Speaker 1: of times, and I'm always so conflicted by the experience.

556
00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:13,720
Speaker 1: So I always go early and a queue, and I

557
00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:17,040
Speaker 1: end up having so many conversations with strangers who I

558
00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:20,239
Speaker 1: perceive a straight guys, mostly who take one look at

559
00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:23,000
Speaker 1: me and think this person can't be a real Bruce fan,

560
00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:25,600
Speaker 1: and then kind of quiz me on Bruce trivia in

561
00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:26,760
Speaker 1: quite an aggressive way.

562
00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:29,160
Speaker 3: A there is just a feeling that you get as

563
00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:32,080
Speaker 3: a queer person when you're confronted by a rowdy mass

564
00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:34,160
Speaker 3: of what looks like white, straight dudes, which is like

565
00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:35,440
Speaker 3: a run.

566
00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:39,520
Speaker 5: It makes me feel like it is their space and

567
00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:40,520
Speaker 5: you're just in it.

568
00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:43,920
Speaker 1: And we're both white in that sense, we are in

569
00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:46,520
Speaker 1: the majority at Bruce Giggs, So I imagine that this

570
00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:49,600
Speaker 1: feeling must be even more intense when you're one of

571
00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:51,480
Speaker 1: the few people of color in the audience.

572
00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:54,760
Speaker 5: We talked to Naomi Gordon label about this too.

573
00:31:55,840 --> 00:31:56,440
Speaker 7: Just real talk.

574
00:31:56,560 --> 00:31:58,280
Speaker 4: When I went to his concert in New Jersey, I

575
00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:00,600
Speaker 4: was surrounded by white people and it's real and like

576
00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:04,560
Speaker 4: sometimes well, of course it's not the case that like

577
00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:07,560
Speaker 4: all his fans are white, but I think it's undeniable that,

578
00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:09,600
Speaker 4: like a lot of what he's singing about is a

579
00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:14,080
Speaker 4: certain specific experience that is largely about white working class

580
00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:16,920
Speaker 4: people in this country. I don't I don't want to

581
00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:18,480
Speaker 4: disconnect him from his whiteness.

582
00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:22,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's lots of elements of our relationships to Bruce

583
00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:27,040
Speaker 1: and what he represents that feel complicated. Is one thing.

584
00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:30,680
Speaker 1: Saying that queer people can find themes in Bruce's music relatable.

585
00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:33,760
Speaker 1: And yes, there are so many more queer fans and

586
00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:36,520
Speaker 1: POC fans of Bruce's music than you might expect.

587
00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:38,760
Speaker 3: And it's not that you have to be the same

588
00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:43,040
Speaker 3: as someone to find meaning from their work. But what

589
00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:45,160
Speaker 3: does it mean when the majority of people in your

590
00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:49,719
Speaker 3: icons fandom probably don't share your identity, your life experiences,

591
00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:51,120
Speaker 3: or even your politics.

592
00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:54,240
Speaker 4: Sometimes I feel a little icky about it. Like one

593
00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:56,640
Speaker 4: thing I would say about him is that, like, I

594
00:32:56,640 --> 00:32:59,600
Speaker 4: don't think he's ever been like really out there with

595
00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:03,960
Speaker 4: rat it left lyrics like, there are other straight whites's

596
00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:06,840
Speaker 4: man musicians who I think arguably have been much more

597
00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:12,960
Speaker 4: political than him. I think it's important to be able

598
00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:17,800
Speaker 4: to admire his work, appreciate his work, be fans of

599
00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:23,600
Speaker 4: his work, be moved by it, and also be realistic

600
00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:28,840
Speaker 4: about his limitations. I think it's important not to put

601
00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:32,840
Speaker 4: him on a pedestal. I wouldn't call Bruce a queer

602
00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:38,320
Speaker 4: hero like. Ultimately, these are stories that many queer folks

603
00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:40,440
Speaker 4: have connected to, and this is music that many queer

604
00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:46,960
Speaker 4: folks have connected to. But that doesn't mean that he's

605
00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:50,880
Speaker 4: infallible in any way. For me, it's important to be

606
00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:56,680
Speaker 4: a fan, but not to mythologize him and not to

607
00:33:57,080 --> 00:34:03,719
Speaker 4: give him that to cast him in that queer hero light.

608
00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:05,840
Speaker 7: Hmm.

609
00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:12,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, this whole series is about getting Bruce recognized as

610
00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:15,719
Speaker 1: a queer icon, to cast him in that queer hero

611
00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:18,160
Speaker 1: light that Miomi just said they would never do.

612
00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:21,279
Speaker 5: Maybe we shouldn't be doing this.

613
00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:26,000
Speaker 2: That's next episode.

614
00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:33,640
Speaker 3: Because Because the Boss Belongs to Us is a production

615
00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:36,560
Speaker 3: of Martin Hart and I Heart Podcasts. We're hosted by

616
00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:38,040
Speaker 3: Jesse Lawson and Holly Cassio.

617
00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:41,600
Speaker 1: The series is executive produced by Jesse and Holly and

618
00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:43,040
Speaker 1: created by Jesse Lawson.

619
00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:46,120
Speaker 3: This episode was produced and sound designed by Jesse Lawson,

620
00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:49,360
Speaker 3: with production assistants from Mariah Dennis and Tess Hazel.

621
00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:51,480
Speaker 5: Michelle Macklam is our mix engineer.

622
00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:55,200
Speaker 1: Our original music and theme is by Talk Bizarre at

623
00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:57,920
Speaker 1: Talk b A Z A R Underscore.

624
00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:01,480
Speaker 3: Our show was designed and illustrated by Holly Cassio at

625
00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:02,680
Speaker 3: Holly c A s I O.

626
00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:07,120
Speaker 1: Fact checking by Selina Serlin. Legal services provided by Rowan,

627
00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:08,000
Speaker 1: Moran and File.

628
00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:11,160
Speaker 3: Our executive producer from Malton Hart is Jasmine J. T.

629
00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:11,520
Speaker 5: Green.

630
00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:14,800
Speaker 3: Our executive producer from iHeart Podcast is Lindsay Hoffman.

631
00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:18,120
Speaker 1: Don't forget to review the show on your podcast platform.

632
00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:20,239
Speaker 3: And tell your friends so listen. It makes a huge difference.

633
00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:42,640
Speaker 2: Bye Bye