1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:02,640 Speaker 1: Hey everybody, this is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. 2 00:00:02,640 --> 00:00:05,080 Speaker 1: Can say, we're bringing you a special treat, an episode 3 00:00:05,160 --> 00:00:09,200 Speaker 1: of our brand new other podcast, Invention. That's right. It 4 00:00:09,280 --> 00:00:13,360 Speaker 1: is an exploration of human techno history, one invention at 5 00:00:13,360 --> 00:00:17,840 Speaker 1: a time, new inventions, old inventions, ancient inventions. Each episode 6 00:00:17,840 --> 00:00:20,800 Speaker 1: a different exploration. We're so excited about this new show. 7 00:00:20,840 --> 00:00:22,920 Speaker 1: We think you're gonna love it. We really hope you do. 8 00:00:23,239 --> 00:00:26,279 Speaker 1: But the really important thing is don't just listen to 9 00:00:26,320 --> 00:00:29,840 Speaker 1: this episode. Go wherever you can and click subscribe. 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You know, 18 00:00:50,400 --> 00:00:53,880 Speaker 1: if you want to consider us releasing a brand new podcast, 19 00:00:53,960 --> 00:00:56,080 Speaker 1: a free podcast at no cost to you, sort of 20 00:00:56,120 --> 00:00:58,960 Speaker 1: our Christmas gift to you, you can give us a 21 00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:01,920 Speaker 1: gift in return, and it's clicking that subscribe button. Don't 22 00:01:01,960 --> 00:01:04,759 Speaker 1: just listen, subscribe, that's right, And the gift we're giving 23 00:01:04,800 --> 00:01:07,520 Speaker 1: you is this episode about the guillotine, and so much 24 00:01:07,560 --> 00:01:09,039 Speaker 1: more to come, like there's gonna be an episode on 25 00:01:09,080 --> 00:01:12,319 Speaker 1: sunglasses in the future, an episode on roads. I'm hoping 26 00:01:12,360 --> 00:01:14,840 Speaker 1: to do one on the saxophone. The sky is the limit. 27 00:01:14,880 --> 00:01:16,800 Speaker 1: And then of course you guys will get to inform 28 00:01:16,840 --> 00:01:19,479 Speaker 1: what we're recording as well, so we hope you enjoy 29 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:32,640 Speaker 1: our exploration of the guillotine. Hey, welcome to Invention. I'm 30 00:01:32,720 --> 00:01:35,480 Speaker 1: Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. And you might know 31 00:01:35,720 --> 00:01:38,720 Speaker 1: Robert and I from our other show Stuff to Blow 32 00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:41,319 Speaker 1: your Mind, our other show in the How Stuff Works Network. 33 00:01:41,360 --> 00:01:45,440 Speaker 1: But today you apparently have somehow wandered into our brand 34 00:01:45,440 --> 00:01:50,160 Speaker 1: new Curiosity Store of Inventions, where we explore human ingenuity 35 00:01:50,240 --> 00:01:53,080 Speaker 1: for good, for ill, all of the stuff that comes 36 00:01:53,080 --> 00:01:56,360 Speaker 1: out of our imaginations and becomes the technology we use 37 00:01:56,440 --> 00:01:59,640 Speaker 1: every day or maybe just read about in history books. Yes, 38 00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:03,400 Speaker 1: the how load halls of technological, systematic and cultural invention, 39 00:02:03,440 --> 00:02:06,880 Speaker 1: the very human machines, customs and systems that altered the 40 00:02:06,880 --> 00:02:09,359 Speaker 1: course of history and today we're talking about one of 41 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:11,560 Speaker 1: the most useful inventions of all time. It's got to 42 00:02:11,600 --> 00:02:14,640 Speaker 1: be the and Robert. Before I say it, do you 43 00:02:14,680 --> 00:02:17,240 Speaker 1: say it like a French guy's name, or like what 44 00:02:17,320 --> 00:02:20,720 Speaker 1: a fish breathes with? I go with guillotine because it 45 00:02:20,760 --> 00:02:23,320 Speaker 1: sounds a little more like an open face sandwich that way, 46 00:02:23,560 --> 00:02:25,880 Speaker 1: and also it has the the gee has more of 47 00:02:25,919 --> 00:02:28,320 Speaker 1: a sound to it. Yeah, I like how it sounds 48 00:02:28,400 --> 00:02:33,120 Speaker 1: kind of like the minotar the guillotine. But but apparently 49 00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:37,760 Speaker 1: guillotine in English is also somewhat acceptable pronunciation. I don't 50 00:02:37,760 --> 00:02:40,840 Speaker 1: think there's a firm ruling one way or another from 51 00:02:40,880 --> 00:02:43,480 Speaker 1: the lords of English pronunciation. Now, one thing is for 52 00:02:43,520 --> 00:02:46,480 Speaker 1: certain as we we ventured into this world of the guillotine. 53 00:02:46,840 --> 00:02:50,359 Speaker 1: Beheadings themselves are just a time honored way for one 54 00:02:50,520 --> 00:02:53,400 Speaker 1: human being to kill another. It's a wound that still 55 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:57,119 Speaker 1: can't be repaired, and it is, without questions, certain death. Now, 56 00:02:57,280 --> 00:03:00,200 Speaker 1: one thing I was thinking about to illustrate this is 57 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:03,280 Speaker 1: what would you even say is the quote cause of 58 00:03:03,320 --> 00:03:06,720 Speaker 1: death in a beheading so well, blood loss, loss of 59 00:03:06,760 --> 00:03:10,200 Speaker 1: oxygen to the brain. Basically, it just cuts off. It 60 00:03:10,240 --> 00:03:12,600 Speaker 1: cuts off your all your plumbing systems from all of 61 00:03:12,639 --> 00:03:15,840 Speaker 1: your your your your thinking systems. Yeah, it makes it 62 00:03:15,840 --> 00:03:18,280 Speaker 1: makes you think about how often when you hear phrases 63 00:03:18,320 --> 00:03:21,200 Speaker 1: like clinically dead, that can refer to something about circulation, 64 00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:24,240 Speaker 1: like the cessation of the heartbeat. Um. But yeah, so 65 00:03:24,360 --> 00:03:26,880 Speaker 1: when you separate the head from the body, I guess 66 00:03:26,919 --> 00:03:29,040 Speaker 1: you've got to be really rigorous about what you mean 67 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:31,640 Speaker 1: by dead though I guess it also happens pretty quickly 68 00:03:31,639 --> 00:03:33,120 Speaker 1: so you don't have to worry about it too much. 69 00:03:33,160 --> 00:03:35,440 Speaker 1: But yeah, all the blood comes out of the head, 70 00:03:35,480 --> 00:03:38,200 Speaker 1: immediate loss of blood pressure, which means the brain can't 71 00:03:38,240 --> 00:03:41,280 Speaker 1: get oxygen, which means the brain can't work. Yeah, and 72 00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:43,960 Speaker 1: it's something that's just cemented in our mythology as well, right, 73 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:45,400 Speaker 1: I mean, you want to kill a vampire, you wanna 74 00:03:45,480 --> 00:03:47,920 Speaker 1: kill a medusa, you want to kill a highlander, what 75 00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:50,160 Speaker 1: do you do? You cut their head off? There is 76 00:03:50,200 --> 00:03:54,000 Speaker 1: something just supernaturally potent about this form of death. Well, 77 00:03:54,040 --> 00:03:56,000 Speaker 1: I think that's absolutely true, and you see that in 78 00:03:56,000 --> 00:03:59,640 Speaker 1: a lot of archaeological finds of beheadings from human history. 79 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:02,680 Speaker 1: Like here's a kind of strange fact. A lot of 80 00:04:02,720 --> 00:04:06,760 Speaker 1: times when you find beheaded humans from ages past, there 81 00:04:06,760 --> 00:04:11,040 Speaker 1: appears to be evidence that the people were beheaded posthumously. 82 00:04:11,840 --> 00:04:14,520 Speaker 1: Why did that happen? There are a lot of ways 83 00:04:14,560 --> 00:04:16,599 Speaker 1: you could explain it. I mean that you would take 84 00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:18,920 Speaker 1: a dead person and cut off their head. Maybe there's 85 00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:21,479 Speaker 1: some sort of ritual function going on here, might be 86 00:04:21,520 --> 00:04:25,680 Speaker 1: a human sacrifice. Maybe there's some kind of symbolic form 87 00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:28,560 Speaker 1: of justice being done, if it's the corps of a 88 00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:30,880 Speaker 1: criminal or an enemy or something. But a lot of 89 00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:32,719 Speaker 1: times it appears like it might be a form of 90 00:04:32,760 --> 00:04:36,440 Speaker 1: apotropaic magic, the kind of magic you would use to 91 00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:39,839 Speaker 1: ward off evil or bad spirits, in the same way 92 00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:43,039 Speaker 1: that you might find a skeleton from hundreds of years 93 00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:45,719 Speaker 1: ago with an iron rod driven through its hard or 94 00:04:45,720 --> 00:04:48,080 Speaker 1: with a brick in its mouth, and say the tombs 95 00:04:48,160 --> 00:04:51,360 Speaker 1: underneath Venice. Yeah, there's like a dismantling of the the 96 00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:55,719 Speaker 1: individual that that seems evident in these acts um you know, 97 00:04:55,720 --> 00:05:00,760 Speaker 1: and we see acts of ritual decapitation dating back thousands 98 00:05:00,760 --> 00:05:03,520 Speaker 1: of years. For instance, there's evidence in Brazil that dates 99 00:05:03,520 --> 00:05:06,640 Speaker 1: back to at least nine thousand BC, and it's uh. 100 00:05:07,080 --> 00:05:10,600 Speaker 1: In it, we find a human skull draped and amputated, 101 00:05:10,680 --> 00:05:14,280 Speaker 1: hands palm side down, covering the face as if as 102 00:05:14,320 --> 00:05:17,960 Speaker 1: if in grief. That's from place called Lapa Dosanto in 103 00:05:17,720 --> 00:05:20,120 Speaker 1: Uh in South America and Brazil, and a lot of 104 00:05:20,120 --> 00:05:22,760 Speaker 1: bones have been discovered there. And it's not always easy 105 00:05:22,800 --> 00:05:25,880 Speaker 1: to determine how to read the intention behind what you 106 00:05:25,920 --> 00:05:28,640 Speaker 1: see in these people. But yeah, there were all kinds 107 00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:32,920 Speaker 1: of forms of of apparently posthumous mutilation going on in 108 00:05:32,960 --> 00:05:35,560 Speaker 1: the way these bones are arranged. For example, sometimes you'll 109 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:40,760 Speaker 1: find skulls, they're full of finger bones inside the skulls. 110 00:05:41,120 --> 00:05:43,320 Speaker 1: What was going on? What made the people want to 111 00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:45,480 Speaker 1: do that? It seems like it may well have formed 112 00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:49,360 Speaker 1: some kind of magical intention, but what was it? Indeed, 113 00:05:49,400 --> 00:05:52,279 Speaker 1: we can only guess now. Another kind of significance that 114 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:56,040 Speaker 1: beheading has often had in the ancient world was that 115 00:05:56,120 --> 00:05:58,560 Speaker 1: it was one of the many forms of execution practiced, 116 00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:01,320 Speaker 1: of course, in ancient Greece and home Uh. And in fact, 117 00:06:01,400 --> 00:06:05,920 Speaker 1: our terms decapitation and capital punishment both come from the 118 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:09,800 Speaker 1: Latin from capit meaning head, so like capital punishment is 119 00:06:09,839 --> 00:06:12,839 Speaker 1: punishment of the head, or that you you pay, you 120 00:06:12,880 --> 00:06:15,240 Speaker 1: pay for a crime with your head by separating it 121 00:06:15,279 --> 00:06:18,400 Speaker 1: from the other stuff. And there's some evidence that the 122 00:06:18,440 --> 00:06:23,360 Speaker 1: ancient Greeks and Romans viewed beheading as not a particularly 123 00:06:23,520 --> 00:06:27,600 Speaker 1: harsh punishment, but more as a particularly noble and honorable 124 00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:30,680 Speaker 1: form of execution, and you see strains of this thinking 125 00:06:30,720 --> 00:06:33,880 Speaker 1: carried into much more recent times, like when beheading was 126 00:06:33,960 --> 00:06:36,920 Speaker 1: deployed as an execution method throughout the history of England. 127 00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:40,960 Speaker 1: Not always, but it was most often reserved for the aristocracy, 128 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:44,120 Speaker 1: while common criminals might more often be killed in what 129 00:06:44,279 --> 00:06:48,800 Speaker 1: was considered a less dignified way like hanging. Yeah, I mean, obviously, 130 00:06:49,400 --> 00:06:52,800 Speaker 1: beheadings in general have probably been occurring as long as 131 00:06:52,800 --> 00:06:57,320 Speaker 1: we've had weapons fine enough to inflict the blow. Uh, 132 00:06:57,440 --> 00:06:59,800 Speaker 1: you know, as long as we had you know, some 133 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:02,680 Speaker 1: thing that couldn't knock or cut a head off. And 134 00:07:02,720 --> 00:07:05,760 Speaker 1: then when you start looking at these, uh, the use 135 00:07:05,800 --> 00:07:08,760 Speaker 1: of the of of a sword or an axe and execution, 136 00:07:09,400 --> 00:07:10,920 Speaker 1: you know, a lot of it comes down to the 137 00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:13,560 Speaker 1: craftsmanship of that weapon, but also the skill of the 138 00:07:13,600 --> 00:07:17,800 Speaker 1: individual using it. Yeah, that's that's a real kicker, isn't it. 139 00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:19,960 Speaker 1: I Mean, when you contract somebody to do a job 140 00:07:20,040 --> 00:07:21,560 Speaker 1: for you, a lot of times if you don't have 141 00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:23,920 Speaker 1: a previous relationship with them, you know, you don't know 142 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:25,760 Speaker 1: what kind of work they're gonna do you want to 143 00:07:25,800 --> 00:07:27,920 Speaker 1: find those people you can trust, but it's hard to 144 00:07:27,960 --> 00:07:30,840 Speaker 1: find a trustworthy the executioner that you know is going 145 00:07:30,920 --> 00:07:33,000 Speaker 1: to cut your head off right right, Like you've really 146 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:35,560 Speaker 1: got to put yourself in the in the shoes of 147 00:07:35,600 --> 00:07:38,000 Speaker 1: the condemned here right. Uh. You know, obviously you don't 148 00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:39,640 Speaker 1: want to be stoned to death. You know, you don't 149 00:07:39,640 --> 00:07:41,640 Speaker 1: want to be thrown into that burlap sack with two 150 00:07:41,720 --> 00:07:44,600 Speaker 1: wild animals and thrown into the river. You would probably 151 00:07:44,640 --> 00:07:49,040 Speaker 1: prefer a nice, clean beheading, but nobody wants a less 152 00:07:49,080 --> 00:07:52,520 Speaker 1: than perfect beheading. If the local warlord is doing it, 153 00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:55,320 Speaker 1: you know, that's one thing. Uh, you know, unless, however, 154 00:07:55,360 --> 00:07:58,760 Speaker 1: you're worried about the war lord inflicting an intentionally less 155 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:02,960 Speaker 1: than perfect stroke out of personal malice. If if it's 156 00:08:02,960 --> 00:08:06,280 Speaker 1: a professional executioner that's doing the honors, well that's either 157 00:08:06,800 --> 00:08:08,680 Speaker 1: really good or really bad, depending on how you look 158 00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:11,320 Speaker 1: at it. Like the idea of a trained specialist doing 159 00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:14,000 Speaker 1: the d that sounds good. But on the other hand, 160 00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:16,840 Speaker 1: at death via the sort of person who either seeks 161 00:08:16,880 --> 00:08:19,520 Speaker 1: this line of work out or is not suited for 162 00:08:19,560 --> 00:08:23,640 Speaker 1: any other form of labor, that's a little uh frightening. 163 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:25,960 Speaker 1: I would say, Plus, do you really want to be 164 00:08:26,040 --> 00:08:29,000 Speaker 1: toward the bottom of an executioner's list for the day 165 00:08:29,600 --> 00:08:32,640 Speaker 1: after they're tired from swinging that big old axe, like 166 00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:35,760 Speaker 1: it's your turn on Friday afternoon? Yeah, like you kind 167 00:08:35,760 --> 00:08:37,280 Speaker 1: of I want to be up there. I would want 168 00:08:37,280 --> 00:08:38,960 Speaker 1: to be up there first, let him get that that 169 00:08:39,120 --> 00:08:41,600 Speaker 1: first blow in on me. I must admit I don't 170 00:08:41,600 --> 00:08:44,640 Speaker 1: think I'd ever much considered the horrors of a weak 171 00:08:44,720 --> 00:08:48,199 Speaker 1: strike from the executioner until Game of Thrones came around, 172 00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:51,760 Speaker 1: and then I suddenly began to think, like, oh, yes, 173 00:08:51,880 --> 00:08:54,960 Speaker 1: this could go very wrong. But George R. Martin did 174 00:08:55,040 --> 00:08:58,520 Speaker 1: not make up this concept obviously, of of being weak. 175 00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:01,679 Speaker 1: It's swinging the execution or sword or the acts. History 176 00:09:01,760 --> 00:09:05,160 Speaker 1: is replete with stories of botched beheadings, and they are 177 00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:08,720 Speaker 1: horrific and unfortunately sometimes kind of funny. I want to 178 00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:11,360 Speaker 1: tell you a couple. This one is not so funny. 179 00:09:12,320 --> 00:09:16,200 Speaker 1: This concerns Mary, the Queen of Scots. So during the 180 00:09:16,240 --> 00:09:19,160 Speaker 1: reign of Protestant Queen Elizabeth the First of England in 181 00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:22,280 Speaker 1: the sixteenth century, there was obviously a lot of anxiety 182 00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:26,040 Speaker 1: about succession because Elizabeth had been born to King Henry 183 00:09:26,040 --> 00:09:29,880 Speaker 1: the Eighth and his second wife, Anne Boleyn, after Henry's 184 00:09:29,920 --> 00:09:33,120 Speaker 1: first marriage to Catherine of Aragon had been annulled, and 185 00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:36,160 Speaker 1: obviously lots of people at the time, especially some Catholics, 186 00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:41,160 Speaker 1: had opinions about that right. And Elizabeth's cousin, Mary Stewart, 187 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:43,920 Speaker 1: was born to James the fifth of Scotland, who was 188 00:09:44,040 --> 00:09:47,520 Speaker 1: descended from a legitimate royal line, and so many Catholic 189 00:09:47,559 --> 00:09:50,920 Speaker 1: supporters thought, well, maybe Mary actually has a more legitimate 190 00:09:50,960 --> 00:09:53,720 Speaker 1: claim to the throne than Elizabeth does. And so Mary 191 00:09:53,800 --> 00:09:57,959 Speaker 1: was eventually implicated in an assassination plot against Elizabeth in 192 00:09:58,040 --> 00:10:00,800 Speaker 1: fifteen eighty six, at least she was a rigedly involved 193 00:10:00,800 --> 00:10:04,120 Speaker 1: in it, and she was sentenced to execution in seven. 194 00:10:04,280 --> 00:10:07,200 Speaker 1: So you've got Mary Stewart, Mary Queen of Scott's, going 195 00:10:07,240 --> 00:10:10,760 Speaker 1: to her execution, and the story goes that she's blindfolded 196 00:10:10,840 --> 00:10:13,520 Speaker 1: and she gets helped to the block and the executioner, 197 00:10:13,640 --> 00:10:16,559 Speaker 1: wearing all black, raises up his axe to kill her, 198 00:10:17,640 --> 00:10:20,600 Speaker 1: but instead of cutting through her neck, he misses and 199 00:10:20,679 --> 00:10:23,280 Speaker 1: he hits her on the head. And then some report 200 00:10:23,320 --> 00:10:27,280 Speaker 1: that she murmurs Sweet Jesus in shock before the executioner 201 00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:30,400 Speaker 1: raises his ax a second time, and then strikes again 202 00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:33,559 Speaker 1: and still fails to cut her head off completely, and 203 00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:37,240 Speaker 1: finally he quote just sawed through what remained of her neck. 204 00:10:38,320 --> 00:10:42,120 Speaker 1: That's that's that's rough for Mary. Yeah, and this is 205 00:10:42,160 --> 00:10:46,560 Speaker 1: you know, this is presumed main event beheading here, so right, 206 00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:48,880 Speaker 1: this is before a royal audience, right, so this would 207 00:10:48,880 --> 00:10:51,320 Speaker 1: have to be either an act of just just just 208 00:10:51,360 --> 00:10:55,440 Speaker 1: an utterly inneped executioner or one that is intentionally doing 209 00:10:55,440 --> 00:10:57,160 Speaker 1: a bad job out of mouth. It's like there seems 210 00:10:57,200 --> 00:10:59,200 Speaker 1: to be very little room in between. It's hard to 211 00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:01,880 Speaker 1: under stand what happened here because you know, we only 212 00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:03,840 Speaker 1: have accounts from the time, which may not even be 213 00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:07,000 Speaker 1: fully reliable. We're relying on what people told us they 214 00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:09,760 Speaker 1: saw there, right, And there could be some objective in 215 00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:12,280 Speaker 1: crafting a version of the tale that sounds more in 216 00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:15,040 Speaker 1: apt than it actually was. But it actually gets worse 217 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:19,240 Speaker 1: because apparently so it's described sometimes that the executioner appeared 218 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:22,079 Speaker 1: horrified at what was going on. But the headsman, after 219 00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:23,920 Speaker 1: he got her head off, he took hold of the 220 00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:26,160 Speaker 1: severed head and he held it up in front of 221 00:11:26,160 --> 00:11:28,000 Speaker 1: the crowd so he could hold up the severed head 222 00:11:28,040 --> 00:11:31,560 Speaker 1: and say God save Queen Elizabeth. But he grasped Mary's 223 00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:33,559 Speaker 1: head by the hair, and it turned out the hair 224 00:11:33,640 --> 00:11:37,160 Speaker 1: was a wig, so the head fell down and rolled away, 225 00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:40,160 Speaker 1: leaving him holding only a hacked up, bloody wig while 226 00:11:40,360 --> 00:11:43,880 Speaker 1: proclaiming his true queen. And then another part of the story, 227 00:11:43,960 --> 00:11:47,040 Speaker 1: maybe maybe not to be believed, is that after Mary's 228 00:11:47,080 --> 00:11:49,360 Speaker 1: head rolled away, her lips kept moving as if she 229 00:11:49,480 --> 00:11:52,000 Speaker 1: was talking or praying. Okay, some of that sounds like 230 00:11:52,040 --> 00:11:53,960 Speaker 1: it might have been embellished, but it also sounds like 231 00:11:53,960 --> 00:11:56,400 Speaker 1: this guy was a real hack, no pun intended. Well, 232 00:11:56,400 --> 00:11:58,760 Speaker 1: I got an even worse hack for you, because there 233 00:11:58,840 --> 00:12:02,839 Speaker 1: was a seventeenth since three English executioner named jack Ketch 234 00:12:03,360 --> 00:12:07,520 Speaker 1: catch spelled like ketchup, catch yeah, or like what's the 235 00:12:08,120 --> 00:12:13,200 Speaker 1: kid in the Pokemon's. I have no idea. Our very 236 00:12:13,240 --> 00:12:17,160 Speaker 1: knowledgeable producer Paul just tells me it is ash ketch Um. 237 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:20,280 Speaker 1: I guess he's got to catch him, all right. It's 238 00:12:20,280 --> 00:12:22,520 Speaker 1: like jack ketch him right, the horror writerer. That's what 239 00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:24,480 Speaker 1: comes to my mind. I don't well anyway, this is 240 00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:27,520 Speaker 1: jack Ketch K E T C H so Jack Ketch 241 00:12:27,960 --> 00:12:32,000 Speaker 1: birthday unknown died in sixty six, who was notorious for 242 00:12:32,080 --> 00:12:36,559 Speaker 1: being a complete screw up at his job and bungling executions. 243 00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:40,959 Speaker 1: A couple of examples. In six three, Ketch performed the 244 00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:44,160 Speaker 1: beheading of William, Lord Russell, who was convicted for treason 245 00:12:44,520 --> 00:12:46,760 Speaker 1: in his role of in his role in the Rye 246 00:12:46,840 --> 00:12:49,920 Speaker 1: House plot, which was against King Charles the second of England, 247 00:12:50,440 --> 00:12:54,480 Speaker 1: and Catches beheading of Russell was reportedly just this clumsy horror, 248 00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:57,480 Speaker 1: with Ketch whacking Russell again and again with the axe, 249 00:12:57,720 --> 00:13:00,880 Speaker 1: but repeatedly failing to get his head off. And apparently 250 00:13:00,920 --> 00:13:04,480 Speaker 1: after this, Catch defended himself by complaining that Russell wouldn't 251 00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:09,040 Speaker 1: hold still, and then you got the second one. Later, James, 252 00:13:09,160 --> 00:13:11,880 Speaker 1: Duke of Monmouth, he went to the block for the 253 00:13:11,920 --> 00:13:15,439 Speaker 1: Monmouth Rebellion of six five, and he tried to pay 254 00:13:15,679 --> 00:13:20,319 Speaker 1: Catch not to screw up his execution. He's recorded as saying, quote, 255 00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:23,880 Speaker 1: here are six guineas for you, pray, do your business well. 256 00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:26,480 Speaker 1: Do not serve me as you did my lord Russell. 257 00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:29,360 Speaker 1: I have heard you struck him three or four times. 258 00:13:29,760 --> 00:13:32,640 Speaker 1: Then Monmouth gave three more guineas to his servant who 259 00:13:32,679 --> 00:13:35,640 Speaker 1: was standing nearby, and told his servant to pay Catch 260 00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:40,120 Speaker 1: only if Catch did the beheading correctly. And then Catch 261 00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:44,040 Speaker 1: said I hope I shall. Then Monmouth asked to feel 262 00:13:44,120 --> 00:13:46,600 Speaker 1: the axe blade, and he did, and he complained that 263 00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:50,320 Speaker 1: this is too dull, and Catch said, no, it's sharp enough, 264 00:13:50,360 --> 00:13:53,600 Speaker 1: it'll be heavy enough. So Monmouth got down in place 265 00:13:53,640 --> 00:13:57,120 Speaker 1: to accept his fate, and Catch brought the axe down 266 00:13:57,200 --> 00:14:00,200 Speaker 1: on Monmouth. And at this point it is reported that 267 00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:03,120 Speaker 1: after he got hit, Monmouth lifted his head up and 268 00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:08,360 Speaker 1: turned around and glared at Catch angrily. Then he got 269 00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:11,160 Speaker 1: back down so Ketch could hit him again, and Catch 270 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:13,880 Speaker 1: hit him several more times, failing each time to be 271 00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:17,000 Speaker 1: head him. Then Catch got frustrated and tried to walk 272 00:14:17,040 --> 00:14:19,480 Speaker 1: away and quit in the middle of the execution, while 273 00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:22,400 Speaker 1: Monmouth was still alive. But the crowd yelled at him 274 00:14:22,440 --> 00:14:24,440 Speaker 1: and told him to go back and finish it, so 275 00:14:24,520 --> 00:14:27,600 Speaker 1: finally he went back. After some more blows and the 276 00:14:27,680 --> 00:14:29,840 Speaker 1: use of a knife, he finally managed to get the 277 00:14:29,920 --> 00:14:33,200 Speaker 1: duke's head off. Well that's awful, Like this guy is 278 00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:35,480 Speaker 1: a true hack. I wonder if that's where the word 279 00:14:35,520 --> 00:14:38,800 Speaker 1: hat comes from. Perhaps, uh yeah, But so you had 280 00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:42,520 Speaker 1: people whose job it was to administer what I guess 281 00:14:42,560 --> 00:14:45,040 Speaker 1: was supposed to be the more humane form of execution 282 00:14:45,080 --> 00:14:46,840 Speaker 1: at the time. I mean, this is different than being 283 00:14:47,320 --> 00:14:50,800 Speaker 1: you know, uh, tortured and hanged and drawn and quartered 284 00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:54,280 Speaker 1: and all that. But he this is obviously not going 285 00:14:54,320 --> 00:14:57,080 Speaker 1: the way it's supposed to. And if we're going inspired 286 00:14:57,080 --> 00:14:59,640 Speaker 1: by the Greek and Roman model, something is obviously wrong 287 00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:02,560 Speaker 1: here at Like, not only is it unnecessarily painful, this 288 00:15:02,640 --> 00:15:06,520 Speaker 1: does not really seem like an honorable death. This seems humiliating. Yeah, 289 00:15:06,520 --> 00:15:09,600 Speaker 1: there's nothing noble about this. You know. This is not 290 00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:13,600 Speaker 1: a finely craft instrument wielded by a by and by 291 00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:18,080 Speaker 1: an expert practitioner. This is just a clumsy exercise and horror. 292 00:15:18,760 --> 00:15:22,240 Speaker 1: But what if mechanical controls could be set in place 293 00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:26,880 Speaker 1: the same level of perfection, regardless of whoever you know, 294 00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:29,560 Speaker 1: happens to be wearing the hood, how tired they are, 295 00:15:29,920 --> 00:15:32,600 Speaker 1: what sort of weapon they're using, or what sort of 296 00:15:32,640 --> 00:15:36,880 Speaker 1: six stuff they're into. A machine that cannot get tired, 297 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:40,600 Speaker 1: it can't hesitate or engage in unfair punishment. It's not 298 00:15:40,640 --> 00:15:45,560 Speaker 1: gonna judge you based on your your royal or commoner status. 299 00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:50,120 Speaker 1: A good blade, some gravity, and a simple frame with 300 00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:53,720 Speaker 1: a necklock, well that would be the guillotine. All right, 301 00:15:53,720 --> 00:15:55,760 Speaker 1: we're gonna take a quick break and when we come back, 302 00:15:56,280 --> 00:15:59,720 Speaker 1: we will discuss some precursors to the guillotine and the 303 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:08,480 Speaker 1: tea itself. Alright, we're back. So the guillotine of late 304 00:16:08,520 --> 00:16:11,760 Speaker 1: eighteenth century France, which I'm sure you've heard about before, 305 00:16:11,840 --> 00:16:14,920 Speaker 1: that was involved in the French Revolution, the Reign of Terror, 306 00:16:15,080 --> 00:16:19,240 Speaker 1: the first French Republic. That guillotine was not the first 307 00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:22,240 Speaker 1: human head removal machine, not by a long shot. And 308 00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:24,080 Speaker 1: we're not saying it was. You know that it was 309 00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:26,400 Speaker 1: predated by people swinging in axe or a sword with 310 00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:29,080 Speaker 1: their hands. Of course it was. But there were organized 311 00:16:29,200 --> 00:16:33,120 Speaker 1: machines for doing this job more efficiently and in a 312 00:16:33,240 --> 00:16:37,680 Speaker 1: more consistent way before the guillotine was instituted in France, right, 313 00:16:37,760 --> 00:16:40,160 Speaker 1: and and they worked along the same principles. They maybe 314 00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:44,160 Speaker 1: they weren't quite as refined, but essentially the idea was 315 00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:46,480 Speaker 1: there that we should say that it was only in 316 00:16:46,480 --> 00:16:49,680 Speaker 1: the aftermath of the French Revolution that people began referring 317 00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:54,000 Speaker 1: to decapitation machines as guillotines. That's where the name comes from. Yes, 318 00:16:54,080 --> 00:16:58,640 Speaker 1: they had equally less refined names. They had more grizzly names. 319 00:16:58,920 --> 00:17:01,920 Speaker 1: One find. We'll meet a couple in a moment. So 320 00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:05,560 Speaker 1: as for who invented the first general decapitation machine, this 321 00:17:05,640 --> 00:17:08,600 Speaker 1: is totally unknown, lost to history, and in fact, we 322 00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:11,520 Speaker 1: don't even know for sure how many societies used a 323 00:17:11,560 --> 00:17:13,840 Speaker 1: device like this. There there are a lot of tales, 324 00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:16,040 Speaker 1: but many of these tales might not even be true. 325 00:17:16,160 --> 00:17:18,040 Speaker 1: We don't know for sure, right, And then how often 326 00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:22,440 Speaker 1: is the individual uh celebrated for creating such a thing 327 00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:26,159 Speaker 1: as we'll discover the naming of the guillotine, and it 328 00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:30,280 Speaker 1: doesn't really relate to the individual or individuals that created it, right. 329 00:17:30,320 --> 00:17:33,480 Speaker 1: I mean a lot of people who create execution devices 330 00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:36,600 Speaker 1: don't want to be associated with and when you find 331 00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:38,399 Speaker 1: the people who do want to be associated with them 332 00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:40,240 Speaker 1: or don't mind, you've got to kind of wonder about 333 00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:43,520 Speaker 1: those people. But um, So, there are a couple of 334 00:17:43,560 --> 00:17:48,000 Speaker 1: known mechanical beheading devices from England that predated the French guillotine, 335 00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:52,040 Speaker 1: and one is known as the Halifax Gibbet. So the 336 00:17:52,080 --> 00:17:54,960 Speaker 1: how Halifax is a town in West Yorkshire in England, 337 00:17:55,040 --> 00:17:57,720 Speaker 1: and it had this infamous beheading machine known as the 338 00:17:57,760 --> 00:18:02,119 Speaker 1: Halifax Gibbet, which was allegedly used mostly to punish petty theft, 339 00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:04,840 Speaker 1: so people would steal some small sum of money or 340 00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:08,280 Speaker 1: something worth not very much, some cloth or something, and 341 00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:13,000 Speaker 1: into the Halifax Gibbet they would go. It was described 342 00:18:13,040 --> 00:18:15,600 Speaker 1: in an eighteen thirty seven history by an author named 343 00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:20,040 Speaker 1: William White in the following way quote. The executions always 344 00:18:20,080 --> 00:18:22,919 Speaker 1: took place on the Great Market day in order to 345 00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:26,440 Speaker 1: strike the more terror into the neighborhood. When the criminal 346 00:18:26,520 --> 00:18:28,800 Speaker 1: was brought to the gibbet, which stood a little way 347 00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:31,400 Speaker 1: out of the town, where part of the stone platform 348 00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:34,679 Speaker 1: may still be seen on Gibbet Hill. The execution was 349 00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:37,720 Speaker 1: performed by means of an engine, which was raised upon 350 00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:41,639 Speaker 1: a platform four ft high and thirteen feet square, faced 351 00:18:41,680 --> 00:18:44,399 Speaker 1: on every side with stone, and ascended by a flight 352 00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:47,560 Speaker 1: of steps. In the middle of this platform was placed 353 00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:51,320 Speaker 1: two upright pieces of timber fifteen feet high, joined at 354 00:18:51,359 --> 00:18:54,679 Speaker 1: the top by a transverse beam. Within these was a 355 00:18:54,760 --> 00:18:58,119 Speaker 1: square block of wood four ft and a half long, 356 00:18:58,359 --> 00:19:01,160 Speaker 1: which moved up and down by means of grooves made 357 00:19:01,160 --> 00:19:03,480 Speaker 1: for that purpose. To the lower part of the sliding 358 00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:06,719 Speaker 1: block was fastened in iron axe of the weight of 359 00:19:06,760 --> 00:19:10,280 Speaker 1: seven pounds and twelve ounces. The axe, thus fixed, was 360 00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:13,200 Speaker 1: drawn up to the top by a cord and pulley. 361 00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:15,280 Speaker 1: At the end of the cord was a pin, which, 362 00:19:15,520 --> 00:19:18,520 Speaker 1: being fixed to the block, kept it suspended till the 363 00:19:18,560 --> 00:19:21,840 Speaker 1: moment of execution. When the culprit, having placed his head 364 00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:24,600 Speaker 1: on the block, the pin was withdrawn and his head 365 00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:28,080 Speaker 1: was instantly severed from his body. If the offender was 366 00:19:28,119 --> 00:19:31,240 Speaker 1: condemned for stealing an ox, a sheep, or a horse, 367 00:19:31,680 --> 00:19:34,960 Speaker 1: the end of the rope was fastened to the beast, which, 368 00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:39,600 Speaker 1: being driven, pulled out the pin and thus became the executioner. 369 00:19:40,119 --> 00:19:42,639 Speaker 1: In other cases, the bailiff for his servant cut the 370 00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:46,000 Speaker 1: rope and allowed the axe to descend. It's a little 371 00:19:46,040 --> 00:19:50,680 Speaker 1: unnecessary complexity involving fim animals, but otherwise the basic principles 372 00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:52,640 Speaker 1: of the guillotine as we've come to know it. Yeah, 373 00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:54,840 Speaker 1: it's more or less there there. There might be some 374 00:19:54,920 --> 00:19:58,560 Speaker 1: design refinements we come on later, but this is the idea. 375 00:19:58,600 --> 00:20:01,879 Speaker 1: It's it's a reliable, bowl, consistent machine that's not going 376 00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:04,480 Speaker 1: to mess up. Right. And of course it doesn't sound 377 00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:07,080 Speaker 1: like it was necessarily a custom blade, or maybe it was, 378 00:20:07,119 --> 00:20:09,000 Speaker 1: but it's very much based on the design of an 379 00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:12,399 Speaker 1: axe blade. Yeah, and when you see illustrations, it looks 380 00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:14,840 Speaker 1: like just a large axe head on the bottom of 381 00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:18,240 Speaker 1: a huge wooden block. Uh So, this beheading machine of 382 00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:21,840 Speaker 1: Halifax was famous enough that the English poet John Taylor 383 00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:26,960 Speaker 1: referenced it alongside the notoriously tough police of Kingston upon 384 00:20:27,119 --> 00:20:29,560 Speaker 1: Hull in a poem uh that that I thought was 385 00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:32,480 Speaker 1: pretty good. He writes, there is a proverb and a 386 00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:35,680 Speaker 1: prayer with all that we may not to Three strange 387 00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:40,800 Speaker 1: places fall from Hull, from Halifax, from Hell. 'tis thus 388 00:20:40,840 --> 00:20:45,120 Speaker 1: from all these three good Lord deliver us at Halifax. 389 00:20:45,160 --> 00:20:48,200 Speaker 1: The law so sharp doth deal that whoso more than 390 00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:52,280 Speaker 1: one threepence doth steal. They have a lynn that wondrous, 391 00:20:52,359 --> 00:20:55,960 Speaker 1: quick and well, since thieves all headless unto Heaven or Hell. 392 00:20:56,600 --> 00:20:59,880 Speaker 1: From Hell, each man says, Lord, deliver me, because from 393 00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:03,720 Speaker 1: Hell can no redemption be Men may escape from Hull 394 00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:07,560 Speaker 1: and Halifax, but sure in Hell there is a heavier tax. 395 00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:10,600 Speaker 1: It sounds pretty grim. Well. I like how it's sort 396 00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:13,840 Speaker 1: of captures two themes there. One is that how the 397 00:21:13,840 --> 00:21:17,040 Speaker 1: Halifax jibbit is deadly and something to be feared, but 398 00:21:17,119 --> 00:21:20,520 Speaker 1: it also contrasts it with the supposed tortures of Hell, 399 00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:24,440 Speaker 1: I guess, again emphasizing that, well, it's not as torturous 400 00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:27,600 Speaker 1: as many of the other methods that are being used. Yeah, 401 00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:29,840 Speaker 1: he's almost describing it like it's a like it's a 402 00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:35,000 Speaker 1: plane ticket to to greater rewards or suffering, depending on 403 00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:39,199 Speaker 1: how one supernatural revenge fantasy is playing out here. But 404 00:21:39,280 --> 00:21:41,399 Speaker 1: on the other hand, I like that it is to 405 00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:46,320 Speaker 1: a certain extent farm animals, uh, you know. Notwithstanding, it 406 00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:50,440 Speaker 1: is to a certain extent saving the horrors of an 407 00:21:50,440 --> 00:21:55,160 Speaker 1: afterlife for those imagined afterlife and not trying to um 408 00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:59,320 Speaker 1: embody them too much in the act of execution itself. Yeah. Now, 409 00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:01,399 Speaker 1: whether that's a actually a good thing or not, we 410 00:22:01,440 --> 00:22:04,119 Speaker 1: can discuss later. But it does seem to be there's 411 00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:08,320 Speaker 1: at least there's at least a superficial kind of humaneness 412 00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:10,879 Speaker 1: to write, even though it seems to be being lumped 413 00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:14,919 Speaker 1: on people who committing extremely pent crimes and not and 414 00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:18,240 Speaker 1: no matter what you think, really probably deserving of death. 415 00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:22,520 Speaker 1: But there's some strange stories about how people reacted to 416 00:22:23,080 --> 00:22:26,119 Speaker 1: what happened with at the Halifax Gibbet. The story in 417 00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:29,800 Speaker 1: Thomas Wright tells a legend quote of a countrywoman who 418 00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:32,520 Speaker 1: was writing by the Gibbet on her hampers to the 419 00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:35,399 Speaker 1: market just at the execution of a criminal when the 420 00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:38,840 Speaker 1: axe chopped his neck through with such force that the 421 00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:42,320 Speaker 1: head jumped into one of her hampers, or as others say, 422 00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:45,960 Speaker 1: seized her apron with the teeth and they're stuck for 423 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:49,840 Speaker 1: some time. I don't believe that's true, or at least 424 00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:51,919 Speaker 1: the teeth. I don't believe. Again, we're coming back to 425 00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:56,640 Speaker 1: the sort of inherent comedy. I mean, it's true gallows humor, 426 00:22:57,119 --> 00:23:01,440 Speaker 1: uh that comes with beheading executions. But there's an interesting 427 00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:05,840 Speaker 1: observation from the Halifax historian John Crabtree, who has a 428 00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:10,040 Speaker 1: sort of attitude about what stories like this mean. He writes, quote, 429 00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:12,879 Speaker 1: it is useless employing words about this fair, but the 430 00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:16,720 Speaker 1: circumstance may serve to show with what apathy the country 431 00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:20,600 Speaker 1: people regarded this mode of punishment. Their minds were evidently 432 00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:24,919 Speaker 1: hardened by such exhibitions, and the fact develops the inadequacy 433 00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:28,560 Speaker 1: of such awful administrations of justice to produce that proper 434 00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:33,600 Speaker 1: moral and salutary effect which might have been anticipated. Such scenes, 435 00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:38,320 Speaker 1: often repeated, appear to harden rather than soften, to stupefy 436 00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:41,840 Speaker 1: rather than awaken the sensibilities of man's nature. And I 437 00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:44,480 Speaker 1: think we should come back to that thought later on. Indeed, 438 00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:46,240 Speaker 1: all right, so what else do we have in terms 439 00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:50,840 Speaker 1: of proto guillotine machines. Well, a quicker story is just 440 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:54,760 Speaker 1: a copy essentially of the Halifax jibbitt, known as the 441 00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:58,600 Speaker 1: Scottish Maiden. So James Douglas, the fourth Earl of Morton, 442 00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:01,320 Speaker 1: who is the ruler of Scotland from fifteen seventy two 443 00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:03,920 Speaker 1: to fifteen seventy eight, he was alleged at some point 444 00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:08,399 Speaker 1: to have introduced the decapitation machine to his country of Scots, 445 00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:11,520 Speaker 1: inspired by the Halifax gibbet. Allegedly, he at some point 446 00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:14,639 Speaker 1: traveled through Halifax and he was so inspired by the 447 00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:17,000 Speaker 1: gibbet that he thought, well, I should share this same 448 00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:20,680 Speaker 1: technology with my countrymen. So a similar machine was built 449 00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:22,960 Speaker 1: out of oak, and it could be transported around the 450 00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:26,040 Speaker 1: country to perform beheadings wherever. But it was often accepting 451 00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:29,560 Speaker 1: the condemned at Edinburgh, and according to the National Museums 452 00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:31,760 Speaker 1: of Scotland, crimes that could get you sent to the 453 00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:39,360 Speaker 1: Scottish Maiden included murder, incest, stealing, treason, adultery, forgery and robbery. 454 00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:43,080 Speaker 1: But there's an ironic twist. So James Douglas, the Earl 455 00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:46,560 Speaker 1: fourth Earl of Morton, was a supporter of James the sixth, 456 00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:50,520 Speaker 1: and Morton opposed the Catholic faction of Mary, Queen of 457 00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:53,600 Speaker 1: Scott's who he discussed earlier, Mary Stewart, and he was 458 00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:57,560 Speaker 1: eventually implicated in a plot to murder Mary's second husband, 459 00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:01,159 Speaker 1: Lord Darnley, and was put to death in June one, 460 00:25:01,359 --> 00:25:06,080 Speaker 1: decapitated by the Scottish maiden that he brought to Scotland. Ah, 461 00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:10,960 Speaker 1: there's your poetic justice, and legends of that kind will 462 00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:13,679 Speaker 1: appear again and again in this episode. Actually, well, yes, 463 00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:16,040 Speaker 1: and even beyond this episode, because this isn't that a 464 00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:20,600 Speaker 1: common theme? The man destroyed by his own invention, by 465 00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:23,320 Speaker 1: his own machine. It happens enough in the movies that 466 00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:26,360 Speaker 1: you should think it happens more often in reality. Though 467 00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:29,119 Speaker 1: in the movies it's especially common when that invention is 468 00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:32,480 Speaker 1: some kind of hybrid animal, like I created a shark ape, 469 00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:35,320 Speaker 1: and you know it swings from the trees, taking bites 470 00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:38,440 Speaker 1: out of people who could have known my shark ape 471 00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:42,200 Speaker 1: would turn on me, And yet it always happens. Alright, So, 472 00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:45,520 Speaker 1: as we've been discussing, there were similar devices already used 473 00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:48,879 Speaker 1: in Europe and had been for centuries before the guillotine 474 00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:51,680 Speaker 1: came around. But the individual who is often credited as 475 00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:56,000 Speaker 1: the inventor of the guillotine is a French surgeon and 476 00:25:56,119 --> 00:26:02,120 Speaker 1: physiologist Antoine Louis who lives seventy three through sev Yeah, 477 00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:05,320 Speaker 1: he is often credited as the inventor, though based on 478 00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:07,600 Speaker 1: what I was reading, it appears to me was maybe 479 00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:10,919 Speaker 1: designed by some sort of committee of which Louis was 480 00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:14,040 Speaker 1: the leader. Right, And this is actually all the more fitting, 481 00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:16,639 Speaker 1: uh when we really get to the heart of the 482 00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:20,040 Speaker 1: guillotine here, because it is this, this thing that is 483 00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:23,359 Speaker 1: it is this utilization of technology and this there's a 484 00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:27,159 Speaker 1: there's an air of civility to it. Uh. This this 485 00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:30,359 Speaker 1: taking something that is kind of that is rather barbaric 486 00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:34,320 Speaker 1: and making it a little less so. Well, it's bureaucratic violence. Yes, 487 00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:39,000 Speaker 1: it very much embodies the idea of retributed violence by 488 00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:41,320 Speaker 1: the state, taken out of the emotional hands of the 489 00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:44,840 Speaker 1: single executioner and placed into the hands of a disembodied 490 00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:48,720 Speaker 1: machine that is created by a committee through drafts. Yes, 491 00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:51,719 Speaker 1: you know, we have another episode that we're recording this 492 00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:55,760 Speaker 1: week on vending machines, and it's amazing this the similarities 493 00:26:55,840 --> 00:27:00,280 Speaker 1: involved here, This this these sometimes these struggles over what 494 00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:02,560 Speaker 1: exactly is happening when a machine does the bidding of 495 00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:07,080 Speaker 1: a human. If a machine is vindan, say, blasphemous literature, 496 00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:09,960 Speaker 1: as we discussed in this other episode, then who is 497 00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:13,200 Speaker 1: it fault foresaid literature sale and uh. And there's a 498 00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:16,359 Speaker 1: sense of that here too. It's like the bureaucracy has 499 00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:21,080 Speaker 1: condemned you to death. The machine is actually doing the execution. 500 00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:24,160 Speaker 1: We're just merely, you know, pushing the button, pulling the string, 501 00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:27,320 Speaker 1: et cetera, to carry out this judgment. Right, But we 502 00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:30,159 Speaker 1: do at least have Antoine Louis to associate with the 503 00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:33,080 Speaker 1: creation of the machine, even if it wasn't just him alone, 504 00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:36,200 Speaker 1: but because of his association with it, it was often 505 00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:40,080 Speaker 1: early on it was called names, not the guillotine yet, 506 00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:43,560 Speaker 1: but names like the Louisette or the louis Zone, which 507 00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:45,280 Speaker 1: doesn't have as much of a ring to it. Oh, 508 00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:48,199 Speaker 1: I kind of like it. I could see executions by 509 00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:50,600 Speaker 1: the Louisette. Yeah, I guess it would have grown on us. 510 00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:53,359 Speaker 1: But at any rate, later it definitely came to be 511 00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:59,159 Speaker 1: named after Joseph Ignace Guillotan, who lived seventeen thirty eight 512 00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:03,439 Speaker 1: through eighteen four team. He was a physician. Uh, he 513 00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:06,440 Speaker 1: was a National Assembly member, and he played a major 514 00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:10,160 Speaker 1: role in passing legislation that made death by machine the law. 515 00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:13,640 Speaker 1: The loose idea here is that it would this kind 516 00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:17,240 Speaker 1: of legislation would provide the best possible version of beheading 517 00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:20,840 Speaker 1: to all classes of society. And we do have to 518 00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:24,280 Speaker 1: point out that, despite some urban legends out there, uh, 519 00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:28,439 Speaker 1: Guillotine himself was not killed by his own machine. And 520 00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:31,159 Speaker 1: he wasn't actually a huge fan of execution either. It's 521 00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:34,879 Speaker 1: not like he was a huge execution enthusiasts. Well, no, 522 00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:38,720 Speaker 1: exactly the opposite. Guilloton opposed the death penalty. He wanted 523 00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:41,120 Speaker 1: the abolition of the death penalty, but he didn't think 524 00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:44,240 Speaker 1: that he could accomplish that directly. Right, this seemed the 525 00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:48,120 Speaker 1: best reasonable next step. Right, It's like, if I can't 526 00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:50,480 Speaker 1: we can't eradicate it, we're going to have it. We 527 00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:54,000 Speaker 1: might as well make it clean and uh and fair 528 00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:57,880 Speaker 1: to all involved. According to a popular legend, Guillotan was 529 00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:01,440 Speaker 1: born when his pregnant mother was out walking one day 530 00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:05,080 Speaker 1: and she overheard the screams of a condemned criminal being 531 00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:07,400 Speaker 1: broken on the wheel and breaking on the wheel was 532 00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:10,400 Speaker 1: you know, a classic death by torture type method where 533 00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:12,880 Speaker 1: a person would be stretched out on a wheel in 534 00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:15,320 Speaker 1: a kind of starfish post and they'd have their limbs 535 00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:18,600 Speaker 1: broken with an iron rod or with a club, just 536 00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:22,800 Speaker 1: insane brutality. So he was very much opposed to that 537 00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:25,080 Speaker 1: sort of thing, not only just the bar the barbaric 538 00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:28,360 Speaker 1: nature of the execution, but the public nature of the 539 00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:33,640 Speaker 1: idea that that women and children, uh, just innocent bystanders 540 00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:38,440 Speaker 1: might just walk through town and witness such such horror. 541 00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:41,479 Speaker 1: So he was thinking, maybe if less children end up 542 00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:44,080 Speaker 1: watching this, the better, Yes, and make it. Yeah, it's 543 00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:47,560 Speaker 1: more systematic, it's more you know, the act itself is 544 00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:50,080 Speaker 1: less flashy, and then we're just gonna make it less 545 00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:54,160 Speaker 1: for performance. So Gia Tom was not out there lobbying 546 00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:57,440 Speaker 1: to get this machine named after his family. No, no, 547 00:29:57,640 --> 00:29:59,880 Speaker 1: it just it ended up sticking. Now a cool lit 548 00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:02,360 Speaker 1: fact here that sounds like something right out of an 549 00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:06,480 Speaker 1: Allan Moore comic book. But along with Benjamin Franklin, H. 550 00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:11,760 Speaker 1: Guillotine investigated the work of Franz Mesmer of Mesmerism, you know, 551 00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:16,000 Speaker 1: the the the form of hypnotism that we had back 552 00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:18,920 Speaker 1: in the day, uh, and they investigated him on behalf 553 00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:26,080 Speaker 1: of King Louis, the League of Extraordinary Gentleman exactly. So 554 00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:28,680 Speaker 1: another way of thinking, you alluded to this a minute ago, 555 00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:31,120 Speaker 1: Robert like the idea that it would be the best 556 00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:34,840 Speaker 1: method for all the classes. So another way of thinking 557 00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:38,440 Speaker 1: about the motivation for the institution of the guillotine at 558 00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:42,320 Speaker 1: this time in history was that it supposedly extended the 559 00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:48,360 Speaker 1: democratic and egalitarian principles of the French Revolution to common criminals, 560 00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:53,360 Speaker 1: essentially extending them the courtesy of the honorable beheading that 561 00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:57,360 Speaker 1: was more often reserved for nobles and aristocrats instead of 562 00:30:57,400 --> 00:31:01,360 Speaker 1: more shameful and common and painful deaths like hanging, burning, 563 00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:03,400 Speaker 1: or breaking on the wheel, which you were more likely 564 00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:06,720 Speaker 1: to get if you were just some lower class petty criminal. Now, 565 00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:09,640 Speaker 1: as for the idea Guillotin had, thinking that this would 566 00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:14,320 Speaker 1: shield children from the gruesome practice of execution, Unfortunately this 567 00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:17,280 Speaker 1: did not work out. I was reading a section from 568 00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:20,680 Speaker 1: a book called Children's Toys of by Gone Days, A 569 00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:24,520 Speaker 1: History of playthings of all people's from prehistoric times to 570 00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:29,600 Speaker 1: the nineteenth century by Carl Grober, published in nineteen and 571 00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:33,360 Speaker 1: the author writes, quote, the worst monstrosity of the kind 572 00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:36,080 Speaker 1: was the outcome of the French Revolution, which indeed was 573 00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:40,200 Speaker 1: over rich in aberrations of taste. The toy shops put 574 00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:44,440 Speaker 1: on the market little guillotines with which little patriots could 575 00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:48,960 Speaker 1: be head figures of aristocrats. They're still survives some specimens 576 00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:52,240 Speaker 1: of this pretty and diverting machine, one of which bears 577 00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:55,160 Speaker 1: the date seventeen ninety four, and he's got an illustration. 578 00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:58,520 Speaker 1: These were not models, but pure toys. And in proof 579 00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:01,400 Speaker 1: of this we have the king's evidence from one whom 580 00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:04,960 Speaker 1: we should never suspect of wishing to give so bloodthirsty 581 00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:08,240 Speaker 1: a toy to his little son. And here the author 582 00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:11,640 Speaker 1: is speaking of the romantic poet Johann wolf Kan von Gta. 583 00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:18,120 Speaker 1: So Gruber tells the story and that in December sevente 584 00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:21,360 Speaker 1: Girta wrote a letter to his mother and Frankfort, asking 585 00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:24,400 Speaker 1: if she would buy a toy guillotine for his little son. 586 00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:27,840 Speaker 1: And she replied, dear son, anything I can do to 587 00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:30,280 Speaker 1: please you is gladly done and gives me joy. But 588 00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:33,360 Speaker 1: to buy such an infamous implement of murder, that I 589 00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:36,120 Speaker 1: will not do at any price. If I had authority, 590 00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:38,160 Speaker 1: the maker should be put in the stocks, and I 591 00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:41,600 Speaker 1: would have the machine publicly burnt by the common executioner. 592 00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:44,160 Speaker 1: And I guess this is sort of the seventeen nineties 593 00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:46,760 Speaker 1: equivalent of like asking your grandmother to buy you a 594 00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:49,800 Speaker 1: copy of Doom for Christmas in the nineteen nineties. Yeah, well, 595 00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:53,040 Speaker 1: I'm glad that you brought up Doom here. And just 596 00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:55,280 Speaker 1: because it's it's easy for us to look back on 597 00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:57,640 Speaker 1: this account and think, oh, these children of a more 598 00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:01,880 Speaker 1: you know, barbarous age. But go to any toy store 599 00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:07,440 Speaker 1: and look at the machine gun based toys that are 600 00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:10,520 Speaker 1: on display. There. All the various guns, like true true 601 00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:15,920 Speaker 1: murder weapons, um, not even methods of bureaucratic execution, but 602 00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:19,840 Speaker 1: weapons of just wanton violence. Uh, these are all represented 603 00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:23,320 Speaker 1: in toys even today. Uh. Likewise, I can't help but 604 00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:26,400 Speaker 1: think back on how much I wanted the slime pit 605 00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:29,520 Speaker 1: when I was a kid. This was a master's of 606 00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:33,360 Speaker 1: the universe. Place set the device and basically you would 607 00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:37,000 Speaker 1: lock he man or some other figure into the machine 608 00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:39,320 Speaker 1: and it was like shaped like a skull, and then 609 00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:41,640 Speaker 1: it would dump slime on top of the head of 610 00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:44,120 Speaker 1: the poor hero. And it was I think that maybe 611 00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:45,840 Speaker 1: the actual lore of it was like I would make 612 00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:48,960 Speaker 1: them mutate or something. But it was very much Uh, 613 00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:50,960 Speaker 1: it was very much like a guillotine, except instead of 614 00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:53,880 Speaker 1: a blade, it was slime. It was like, clearly an 615 00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:58,840 Speaker 1: instrument of execution, of of ritualized death for your toys. 616 00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:02,080 Speaker 1: So you're arranging an execution for he man exactly. So 617 00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:05,400 Speaker 1: you know, the idea of a toy guillotine. It makes 618 00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:09,280 Speaker 1: perfect sense. Uh, we can't. We can only distance ourselves 619 00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:11,920 Speaker 1: from such an idea so much. Though. I also have 620 00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:15,800 Speaker 1: to wonder I somehow detect between the lines. This could 621 00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:18,840 Speaker 1: have been one of those situations where and Robert, I 622 00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:21,560 Speaker 1: bet you're familiar with this, where a dad buys or 623 00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:25,000 Speaker 1: requests a toy for his child because secretly he wants 624 00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:29,480 Speaker 1: to play. Uh. In fact, Gerta wrote in faust quote 625 00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:34,439 Speaker 1: ages no second childhood age makes plain children. We were 626 00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:39,839 Speaker 1: true children. We remain again much like it is today. Now. 627 00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:44,880 Speaker 1: We mentioned that Guillaton was responsible for introducing legislation that 628 00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:48,200 Speaker 1: would eventually lead the French National Assembly to say, okay, 629 00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:51,080 Speaker 1: we're only going to be killing people by beheading machine. 630 00:34:51,160 --> 00:34:53,480 Speaker 1: Now that that's that's going to be the new method 631 00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:56,680 Speaker 1: of execution. That's what's humane, that's what the state should 632 00:34:56,680 --> 00:34:58,600 Speaker 1: be up to and so I think in just a 633 00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:01,279 Speaker 1: minute we should turn to the sheen itself. But I 634 00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:04,720 Speaker 1: just wanted quickly before we do that, to discuss where 635 00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:08,160 Speaker 1: it is that this rumor came from. The guillotam was 636 00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:11,760 Speaker 1: killed by the machine that he recommended putting in place 637 00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:15,400 Speaker 1: for executions in France, and I think I know maybe 638 00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:17,680 Speaker 1: a few threads of where the story came from. Obviously, 639 00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:21,680 Speaker 1: we had that ironic story of the Earl of Morton earlier, right, 640 00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:24,360 Speaker 1: so we can see how that might have influenced confused 641 00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:26,400 Speaker 1: the telling, right. But then there are a couple of 642 00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:29,920 Speaker 1: other examples. So Dr Antoine Louis, the secretary of the 643 00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:33,319 Speaker 1: Academy of Medicine and physician to King Louis, the one 644 00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:36,840 Speaker 1: who we talked about earlier, chairing that committee that designed 645 00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:41,560 Speaker 1: the device. He was actually temporarily condemned to die in 646 00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:45,359 Speaker 1: the machine that he designed or helped design, though he 647 00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:48,759 Speaker 1: escaped this fate basically during a change of power, So 648 00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:52,440 Speaker 1: he narrowly escaped going to the guillotine himself. And then 649 00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:56,160 Speaker 1: King Louis the sixteenth, who was interested in mechanical engineering, 650 00:35:56,480 --> 00:35:59,080 Speaker 1: is said to have made refinements to the design of 651 00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:03,080 Speaker 1: the guillotine like recommending an angled blade while he was 652 00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:06,120 Speaker 1: still in power, before the device was eventually turned on 653 00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:09,160 Speaker 1: the king himself and on his wife Marie Antoinette. And 654 00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:12,560 Speaker 1: so there's another kind of like creator and then killed 655 00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:15,719 Speaker 1: by his creation. Irony there since he apparently or at 656 00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:19,080 Speaker 1: least allegedly offered refinements to the design. All right, Well, 657 00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:20,759 Speaker 1: on that note, we're gonna take one more break, and 658 00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:23,799 Speaker 1: when we come back, we'll discuss the machine itself in 659 00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:31,640 Speaker 1: more detail, and we'll also discuss its legacy. All right, 660 00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:34,640 Speaker 1: we're back. So now we're at the machine itself, the 661 00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:37,840 Speaker 1: French guillotine of the seventeen eighties and onward. And the 662 00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:40,960 Speaker 1: question is was it actually built? Well, of course it was. 663 00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:43,359 Speaker 1: This one was definitely built. Some of the inventions were 664 00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:47,040 Speaker 1: discussing on this show, you know, maybe didn't get out 665 00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:50,880 Speaker 1: of the blueprint phase. This definitely saw action. So, after 666 00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:53,839 Speaker 1: the legal standard of execution by machine was approved by 667 00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:57,759 Speaker 1: the National Assembly in the construction of the machine was 668 00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:02,840 Speaker 1: delegated to a politician named Pierre Louis red Areo, who 669 00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:05,439 Speaker 1: I'm always going to struggle with that name, so I'll 670 00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:08,480 Speaker 1: just call him Pierre here. Uh. He apparently had trouble 671 00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:11,680 Speaker 1: finding a contractor who could build the machine since no 672 00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:14,439 Speaker 1: one wanted their name associated with it, and eventually found 673 00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:17,319 Speaker 1: a taker is a taker from Germany, and so the 674 00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:23,160 Speaker 1: guillotine was constructed by a German harpsichord maker named Tobias Schmidt. 675 00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:27,000 Speaker 1: Apparently he also supplied a leather sack that would catch heads. 676 00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:29,360 Speaker 1: And now you can you just gotta wonder about Tobias. 677 00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:32,800 Speaker 1: I can just imagine the scenario. It's like, so, honey, 678 00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:35,000 Speaker 1: what are you working on today? I get this new 679 00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:37,399 Speaker 1: contracted it pays well, it's gonna really help us out 680 00:37:37,480 --> 00:37:40,600 Speaker 1: next month. Oh who are you putting a hots harpsichord 681 00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:43,439 Speaker 1: of chord for? Well, it's not quite a harpsichord. Well, 682 00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:46,839 Speaker 1: I'm just imagining in his shop while he's working on 683 00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:50,919 Speaker 1: the guillotine that harpsichord music is constantly playing Dan Dan 684 00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:54,920 Speaker 1: Dean Dan Dan dy. Anyway, according to the memoirs of 685 00:37:54,960 --> 00:38:00,399 Speaker 1: the French executioner Enrie Clement Sans Song in eighteen seven six, 686 00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:03,520 Speaker 1: since On came from a line of a long line 687 00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:07,120 Speaker 1: of executioners, and he so he has these memoirs about 688 00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:11,200 Speaker 1: his family's exploits, cutting off heads and performing executions in France, 689 00:38:11,560 --> 00:38:15,719 Speaker 1: and his memoirs are considered probably only partially reliable, but 690 00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:18,240 Speaker 1: his up close description of the workings of the guillotine 691 00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:20,799 Speaker 1: is fairly straightforward. So I see, I feel like he's 692 00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:23,479 Speaker 1: probably on the right track here, all right, I'm gonna 693 00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:25,520 Speaker 1: read part of this and I'm gonna I'm gonna go 694 00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:29,040 Speaker 1: for an executioner's voice. Here do it. On a scaffold 695 00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:31,680 Speaker 1: from seven to eight feet high, two parallel bars are 696 00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:35,480 Speaker 1: made fast in one end. Their top part is united 697 00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:38,520 Speaker 1: by a strong crossbar. To this crossbar is added a 698 00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:41,520 Speaker 1: thick iron ring, and which is past a rope which 699 00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:44,960 Speaker 1: fixes and retains a ram. This is perpendicularly armed with 700 00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:48,160 Speaker 1: a sharp and broad blade, which gradually becomes broader on 701 00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:52,279 Speaker 1: all its surface, so then instead of striking perpendicularly, it 702 00:38:52,440 --> 00:38:55,160 Speaker 1: strikes sideways, so that there is not an inch of 703 00:38:55,200 --> 00:39:00,000 Speaker 1: the blade that does not serve. The ram ways from pounds, 704 00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:02,960 Speaker 1: and its weight is doubled. When it begins to slide down. 705 00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:06,319 Speaker 1: It is enclosed in the groove of the bars. A 706 00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:09,280 Speaker 1: spring makes it fast to the left bar. A band 707 00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:12,160 Speaker 1: of iron descends along the outside of the same bar, 708 00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:15,520 Speaker 1: and the handle is locked to a ring with a padlock. 709 00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:18,840 Speaker 1: So that no accident is possible, and the weight only 710 00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:23,360 Speaker 1: falls when the executioner interferes to a way plank. Strong 711 00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:26,640 Speaker 1: straps are fastened by which the criminal is attached under 712 00:39:26,680 --> 00:39:29,480 Speaker 1: the armpits and over the legs, so that the body 713 00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:32,800 Speaker 1: cannot move as soon as the way plank goes down. 714 00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:36,200 Speaker 1: The head being between the bars, is supported by a 715 00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:42,000 Speaker 1: rounded crossbar. The executioner's assistants lower another rounded crossbar, the 716 00:39:42,120 --> 00:39:45,560 Speaker 1: head being thus grooved in a perfect circle, which prevents 717 00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:49,720 Speaker 1: it from moving in any way. This precaution is indispensable 718 00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:54,080 Speaker 1: in regard to the terrible inconveniences of fear. The executioner 719 00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:57,080 Speaker 1: then touches the spring. The whole affair is done so 720 00:39:57,160 --> 00:39:59,520 Speaker 1: quickly that only the thump of the blade when it 721 00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:03,080 Speaker 1: slide down and forms the spectators that the culprit is 722 00:40:03,120 --> 00:40:06,160 Speaker 1: no longer of the living. The head falls into a 723 00:40:06,200 --> 00:40:08,879 Speaker 1: basket full of brand and the body is pushed into 724 00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:14,120 Speaker 1: another wicker basket line with very thick leather. That's a 725 00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:17,120 Speaker 1: heck of a rating, Robert, Yeah, that was going to 726 00:40:17,160 --> 00:40:20,959 Speaker 1: do a number on my throat. But I'm sorry. Maybe 727 00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:22,400 Speaker 1: I should have taken part of it, but I was 728 00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:25,360 Speaker 1: just enjoying listening to your Henri Clement. Well, there's a 729 00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:29,520 Speaker 1: precision in his in his description of the act that 730 00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:32,240 Speaker 1: I felt like I had to had to capture now obviously, 731 00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:35,799 Speaker 1: so he's described how the device works now, but they 732 00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:37,959 Speaker 1: had to test it out before they can make sure 733 00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:41,279 Speaker 1: to try it on a human, right, So you know, 734 00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:43,280 Speaker 1: you always wonder like, how do you test a guillotine? 735 00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:45,960 Speaker 1: You put a watermelon in there, do you gallagher it? Well, 736 00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:47,800 Speaker 1: I suppose you could, but it's kind of a waste 737 00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:49,839 Speaker 1: of a good melon, and ultimately you want to test 738 00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:51,920 Speaker 1: it on the real thing, right, So they use dead bodies. 739 00:40:52,200 --> 00:40:55,359 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, also farm animals like sheep and calves. Yeah, 740 00:40:55,480 --> 00:40:57,239 Speaker 1: because you just I mean, it makes sense you want 741 00:40:57,280 --> 00:41:01,560 Speaker 1: to make sure you're cutting through actual vertebrate tissue there 742 00:41:01,560 --> 00:41:06,840 Speaker 1: and most notably the neck. And then on a officials 743 00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:10,439 Speaker 1: installed and used the guillotine for the first time. Right. 744 00:41:10,480 --> 00:41:13,120 Speaker 1: So the first victim of the French guillotine was Nicholas 745 00:41:13,239 --> 00:41:16,920 Speaker 1: Jacques Beltier who was a highwayman, and he was executed 746 00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:20,040 Speaker 1: where the machine was erected at the Plas de grev 747 00:41:20,680 --> 00:41:23,319 Speaker 1: And they're so a large crowd came out, obviously to 748 00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:26,279 Speaker 1: witness the first execution by the new machine, but it 749 00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:29,520 Speaker 1: was reported that the crowd was somewhat unimpressed, and they 750 00:41:29,560 --> 00:41:33,839 Speaker 1: found the efficiency of the killing less entertaining than the 751 00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:36,399 Speaker 1: forms of execution they were used to, even the more 752 00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:40,759 Speaker 1: classic beheadings. Nevertheless, over time, the executions that the guillotine 753 00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:44,600 Speaker 1: became a very popular spectator event during the reign of Terror, 754 00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:47,640 Speaker 1: and you know, in generally afterwards when the guillotine was used, 755 00:41:47,719 --> 00:41:50,279 Speaker 1: people would show up to watch. So we see a 756 00:41:50,320 --> 00:41:54,920 Speaker 1: little success here. Like it was clearly less dramatic, uh, 757 00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:57,560 Speaker 1: you know, there was less theater in the act. And 758 00:41:57,640 --> 00:41:59,680 Speaker 1: yet at the same time, a few things are more 759 00:41:59,760 --> 00:42:02,520 Speaker 1: drum mattic in life than the ending of a life 760 00:42:02,560 --> 00:42:05,359 Speaker 1: like this is the people. You can understand why people 761 00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:08,600 Speaker 1: would still turn out even if you had made things 762 00:42:09,040 --> 00:42:12,400 Speaker 1: a little more precise. Now, putting aside the question, I 763 00:42:12,440 --> 00:42:14,400 Speaker 1: guess what we can talk talk about in a minute 764 00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:18,200 Speaker 1: of or whether it's ever humane to just execute somebody, 765 00:42:18,520 --> 00:42:23,319 Speaker 1: was it actually true that the guillotine was a more refined, 766 00:42:23,640 --> 00:42:27,279 Speaker 1: more humane version of execution than what came before? Was it? 767 00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:30,040 Speaker 1: Was it an improvement if you were somebody who was 768 00:42:30,120 --> 00:42:33,960 Speaker 1: interested in reducing the suffering of humankind, yeah, I mean 769 00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:37,359 Speaker 1: you could again, you could say the concept is inherently controversial, 770 00:42:37,640 --> 00:42:40,480 Speaker 1: but still others took issue with just how humane it was. 771 00:42:40,640 --> 00:42:45,120 Speaker 1: So op Prussian doctor Samuel Thomas summer Ing, who lives 772 00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:48,200 Speaker 1: seventeen fifty five through eighteen thirty he studied the cadavers 773 00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:50,879 Speaker 1: of guillotine victims, and he argued that severed heads were 774 00:42:50,880 --> 00:42:54,320 Speaker 1: still capable feeling and since, and he wrote an essay 775 00:42:54,360 --> 00:42:58,080 Speaker 1: on this in seventeen nine. So he he was something 776 00:42:58,080 --> 00:43:00,960 Speaker 1: of a poly math. In addition to naming the twelve 777 00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:04,960 Speaker 1: pairs of cranial nerves, he also invented a telegraphic system 778 00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:09,480 Speaker 1: and made discoveries in paleontology, specifically with the pterodactyl fossils. 779 00:43:09,560 --> 00:43:13,440 Speaker 1: They're not dinosaurs, folks, that's a different thing. So this 780 00:43:13,480 --> 00:43:15,759 Speaker 1: was you know, this was not just this wasn't just 781 00:43:15,800 --> 00:43:18,040 Speaker 1: some crazy guy coming up and sanah, the heads are 782 00:43:18,080 --> 00:43:21,960 Speaker 1: still alive. You know, he was he was making a 783 00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:24,600 Speaker 1: an expert argument that, like, I'm not sure that this 784 00:43:24,680 --> 00:43:27,040 Speaker 1: is great what we're doing. Maybe it's a little it's 785 00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:29,799 Speaker 1: almost a little too precise. Yeah. The core takeaway of 786 00:43:29,880 --> 00:43:32,200 Speaker 1: his essay on the humanity of the guiatain was that 787 00:43:32,920 --> 00:43:35,240 Speaker 1: we can't rule out that it's possible that a severed 788 00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:39,720 Speaker 1: head could still be having experience, could experience being severed. 789 00:43:39,960 --> 00:43:41,760 Speaker 1: Now we knew, And there were a lot of tales 790 00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:45,080 Speaker 1: of this happening, right of people running to check out 791 00:43:45,120 --> 00:43:49,359 Speaker 1: the heads of the decapitated, in various doctors checking in 792 00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:51,360 Speaker 1: and seeing what was going on with the eyes. And 793 00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:53,759 Speaker 1: there was a lot of interest in this in determining what, 794 00:43:54,120 --> 00:43:56,879 Speaker 1: you know, what happens to consciousness at death, like this 795 00:43:56,920 --> 00:44:01,960 Speaker 1: was a perfect clinical exercise for for weighing in on it. Yeah, 796 00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:04,640 Speaker 1: the classic tales about this thin get repeated the most 797 00:44:04,640 --> 00:44:09,040 Speaker 1: often are like seeing someone's cheeks flush with anger when 798 00:44:09,080 --> 00:44:12,239 Speaker 1: they behold someone, or who's someone who mocks them or 799 00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:15,160 Speaker 1: something like that, or or who slaps them in the face, 800 00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:19,120 Speaker 1: or thinking that that I severed head would be like 801 00:44:19,640 --> 00:44:24,120 Speaker 1: looking at people as if it recognized them, something like that. Yeah, 802 00:44:24,120 --> 00:44:26,200 Speaker 1: and obviously there's a lot of indelishment with these stories, 803 00:44:26,239 --> 00:44:28,120 Speaker 1: but we don't know how much to trust them. Yeah, 804 00:44:28,120 --> 00:44:29,480 Speaker 1: we really don't know how much to trust them. But 805 00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:33,279 Speaker 1: we do know today that that any kind of activity 806 00:44:33,400 --> 00:44:36,320 Speaker 1: scene in the heads after death, most of this is 807 00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:41,279 Speaker 1: going to be reflective twitching of muscles. So um, basically, 808 00:44:42,080 --> 00:44:45,520 Speaker 1: coma and brain death are probably gonna occur within two 809 00:44:45,560 --> 00:44:49,680 Speaker 1: to three seconds of decapitation due to interruption of blood 810 00:44:49,680 --> 00:44:52,560 Speaker 1: flow to the brain. So just the massive sudden drop 811 00:44:52,600 --> 00:44:56,319 Speaker 1: in blood pressure, Yeah, that's gonna be Yeah. So any 812 00:44:56,360 --> 00:44:59,680 Speaker 1: tales of like, you know, confronting the head, having any 813 00:44:59,760 --> 00:45:03,279 Speaker 1: kind of like moment of human uh contact, even it 814 00:45:03,320 --> 00:45:05,960 Speaker 1: it's just in the eyes. Uh, it's pretty clear that 815 00:45:05,960 --> 00:45:10,000 Speaker 1: that is all just embellishment of stories or just wishful 816 00:45:10,120 --> 00:45:12,799 Speaker 1: thinking on the part of the observer. So what is 817 00:45:12,880 --> 00:45:17,040 Speaker 1: the legacy of this machine, this this machine of bureaucratic violence. 818 00:45:17,080 --> 00:45:19,279 Speaker 1: And if we try to look at it from with 819 00:45:19,360 --> 00:45:22,160 Speaker 1: our perspective, from today, with our hindsight, and you know, 820 00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:24,359 Speaker 1: with with the kind of value judgments we would make, 821 00:45:24,480 --> 00:45:27,560 Speaker 1: was the guillotine a step forward or a step backward? 822 00:45:27,760 --> 00:45:32,879 Speaker 1: Was it as uh Giatan envisioned a more humane way 823 00:45:32,920 --> 00:45:35,480 Speaker 1: of doing business when the state was just you know, 824 00:45:35,520 --> 00:45:38,839 Speaker 1: couldn't be convinced not to kill people, or did it 825 00:45:39,239 --> 00:45:42,840 Speaker 1: perhaps enable a worse state of affairs where more people 826 00:45:42,880 --> 00:45:45,640 Speaker 1: could be sent to their deaths with impunity than would 827 00:45:45,680 --> 00:45:48,000 Speaker 1: have been the case otherwise. Yeah, I think you could 828 00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:50,120 Speaker 1: probably go either way on it. I mean, one thing 829 00:45:50,200 --> 00:45:52,279 Speaker 1: is for certain. It it changed the way executions were 830 00:45:52,280 --> 00:45:55,319 Speaker 1: performed in France for nearly two hundred years. It was 831 00:45:55,440 --> 00:45:58,440 Speaker 1: actually used in France up until nineteen seventy seven, that's 832 00:45:58,440 --> 00:46:02,240 Speaker 1: when the last execution occur via guillotine, before the outlying 833 00:46:02,239 --> 00:46:06,440 Speaker 1: of capital punishment in one it also took on symbolic way. 834 00:46:06,440 --> 00:46:08,799 Speaker 1: It's just this this symbol of the reign of terror 835 00:46:08,880 --> 00:46:12,320 Speaker 1: and perhaps to a larger extent, a symbol of systematically 836 00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:16,160 Speaker 1: violent rebellion. Yeah. I read one author point out, certainly 837 00:46:16,160 --> 00:46:19,000 Speaker 1: not in defending the guillotine or the use of the guillotine, 838 00:46:19,040 --> 00:46:21,440 Speaker 1: but it just pointing out a kind of strange irony 839 00:46:21,480 --> 00:46:26,000 Speaker 1: that the guillotine now to us symbolizes this this horror, 840 00:46:26,040 --> 00:46:29,880 Speaker 1: this horror period of bureaucratic violence, which it certainly was. 841 00:46:30,320 --> 00:46:31,759 Speaker 1: But we look at that and we think of that 842 00:46:31,800 --> 00:46:34,520 Speaker 1: period as a reign of terror. But don't think the 843 00:46:34,560 --> 00:46:37,839 Speaker 1: same way say about the Napoleonic Wars, which killed far 844 00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:40,759 Speaker 1: more people than the guillotine ever did. Not that that 845 00:46:40,800 --> 00:46:43,879 Speaker 1: makes the killings of the guillotine any less horrific. It's true, now, 846 00:46:44,120 --> 00:46:46,520 Speaker 1: you know. One the one thing about the weirdness of 847 00:46:46,520 --> 00:46:49,319 Speaker 1: this whole situation that stands out. I mean, aside from 848 00:46:49,360 --> 00:46:52,960 Speaker 1: just the inherently weird nature of of a beheading machine 849 00:46:53,360 --> 00:46:56,560 Speaker 1: machine that cuts off heads, there is still something highly 850 00:46:56,600 --> 00:46:59,560 Speaker 1: symbolic going on here. I think to the means of 851 00:46:59,560 --> 00:47:03,200 Speaker 1: an exit usition, and you'll typically see an expression of 852 00:47:03,200 --> 00:47:07,440 Speaker 1: of power involved. Say it's a physical strength or you know, 853 00:47:07,600 --> 00:47:13,319 Speaker 1: vengeful spirit or increasingly a culture's greatest technological achievements. Isn't 854 00:47:13,320 --> 00:47:16,640 Speaker 1: it weird to think about how these methods climb the 855 00:47:16,680 --> 00:47:20,680 Speaker 1: tree of developing technology? So starting with varying levels of 856 00:47:20,680 --> 00:47:25,440 Speaker 1: tool proficiency, you know, axes and swords, weapons, weapon crafting, 857 00:47:25,719 --> 00:47:30,440 Speaker 1: then we go into gunpowder, uh, you know, firing squads, electricity, 858 00:47:30,480 --> 00:47:33,239 Speaker 1: and the electric chair. It is weird to trace through 859 00:47:33,280 --> 00:47:36,800 Speaker 1: history execution methods just sort of like tracking with whatever 860 00:47:36,920 --> 00:47:41,719 Speaker 1: is the most interesting new technology we have available. Yeah, chemicals, pharmaceuticals, 861 00:47:41,800 --> 00:47:45,120 Speaker 1: I mean, why an electric chair? That is just such 862 00:47:45,160 --> 00:47:50,560 Speaker 1: a strange idea to even come up with. French philosopher 863 00:47:50,840 --> 00:47:54,480 Speaker 1: Michelle Fuco he weighed in on this, and he pointed 864 00:47:54,520 --> 00:47:58,440 Speaker 1: out that penal technology is of course an expression of power, 865 00:47:58,520 --> 00:48:00,440 Speaker 1: but we also have to dwell in the fact that 866 00:48:00,560 --> 00:48:05,680 Speaker 1: it does this through everyday technology, ubiquitous technology. So if 867 00:48:05,680 --> 00:48:08,439 Speaker 1: it's something like electricity or even you know or even 868 00:48:08,600 --> 00:48:13,560 Speaker 1: you know, pharmaceuticals, chemicals. Uh, it's it's taking aspects of 869 00:48:13,600 --> 00:48:18,000 Speaker 1: everyday life and turning them into the the system, the 870 00:48:18,040 --> 00:48:21,759 Speaker 1: tool of of justice. So like our everyday use of 871 00:48:21,920 --> 00:48:25,719 Speaker 1: energy and the consumer economy, a constant reminder of the 872 00:48:25,760 --> 00:48:28,720 Speaker 1: methods of death that the state can inflict upon people 873 00:48:28,760 --> 00:48:32,279 Speaker 1: if they if they don't stay in line exactly. Now, 874 00:48:32,480 --> 00:48:35,319 Speaker 1: one small area of the legacy of the guillotine comes 875 00:48:35,360 --> 00:48:38,440 Speaker 1: down to its use in medical terminology. So there are 876 00:48:38,480 --> 00:48:41,680 Speaker 1: two primary means of amputation. Um in terms of like 877 00:48:41,719 --> 00:48:44,480 Speaker 1: amputating a limb or what have you. You have flap 878 00:48:44,520 --> 00:48:47,480 Speaker 1: amputations in which flaps of flesh are left so that 879 00:48:47,520 --> 00:48:51,440 Speaker 1: you can fold them and close the stump of the wound. 880 00:48:51,640 --> 00:48:54,279 Speaker 1: And then there are guillotine amputations, which which are more 881 00:48:54,280 --> 00:48:56,840 Speaker 1: of a straight down affair with no immediate concerns for 882 00:48:56,920 --> 00:49:01,880 Speaker 1: flap tissue. So in guillotine amputation, it's more about cutting 883 00:49:01,880 --> 00:49:05,360 Speaker 1: out infected tissue and making sure drainage of proper drainage occurs, 884 00:49:05,680 --> 00:49:09,280 Speaker 1: and then secondary surgery is performed to create the flap 885 00:49:09,320 --> 00:49:12,280 Speaker 1: tissue to close everything off into a stump. But obviously 886 00:49:12,320 --> 00:49:15,480 Speaker 1: that's like a secondary appellation, like you wouldn't you wouldn't 887 00:49:15,480 --> 00:49:19,040 Speaker 1: have called that guillotine cutting in the surgical since before 888 00:49:19,080 --> 00:49:21,560 Speaker 1: the guillotine, right, But it is certainly an example where 889 00:49:21,600 --> 00:49:25,760 Speaker 1: if you're you, you encounter this terminology now in in 890 00:49:26,120 --> 00:49:29,399 Speaker 1: medical science and uh, and it stems from the use 891 00:49:29,440 --> 00:49:31,960 Speaker 1: of this execution device. That being said, there's a lot 892 00:49:32,000 --> 00:49:36,240 Speaker 1: of medical terminology that stems from various weapons and so forth. 893 00:49:36,360 --> 00:49:39,000 Speaker 1: Of course, so I want to come back to this 894 00:49:39,080 --> 00:49:42,319 Speaker 1: question that we've been teasing throughout where you can't help 895 00:49:42,320 --> 00:49:47,120 Speaker 1: but wonder if Josephine Guioton pushed us in exactly the 896 00:49:47,239 --> 00:49:51,280 Speaker 1: wrong direction, if he was actually against the death penalty 897 00:49:51,360 --> 00:49:56,319 Speaker 1: and trying to institute more humane treatment of criminals. You know, 898 00:49:56,719 --> 00:50:00,800 Speaker 1: it's hard not to notice that by sanitizing a horrible act, 899 00:50:01,400 --> 00:50:04,440 Speaker 1: it often seems like you make the act easier to 900 00:50:04,560 --> 00:50:07,400 Speaker 1: carry out. And I mean, just think about how this 901 00:50:07,440 --> 00:50:11,000 Speaker 1: applies to modern methods of state sanctioned killing, everything from 902 00:50:11,080 --> 00:50:16,280 Speaker 1: lethal injection to drone strikes. Does the sanitizing and distancing 903 00:50:16,360 --> 00:50:22,960 Speaker 1: and depersonalization opportunity provided by lethal technology encourage us to 904 00:50:23,680 --> 00:50:28,600 Speaker 1: make ourselves able to kill more while feeling less about it. Yeah, 905 00:50:28,719 --> 00:50:33,120 Speaker 1: I mean, ultimately, is the the botched execution that we've 906 00:50:33,160 --> 00:50:37,120 Speaker 1: discussed already, Are those not maybe a more honest depiction 907 00:50:37,160 --> 00:50:41,920 Speaker 1: of what's going on? This this this fallible, um barbaric 908 00:50:42,040 --> 00:50:47,239 Speaker 1: human effort, not this uh precision of the holy blameless machine. Well, 909 00:50:47,280 --> 00:50:49,360 Speaker 1: I mean, obviously we're not going to sit here and 910 00:50:49,400 --> 00:50:53,359 Speaker 1: advocate brutal botched executions with Jack Catch hacking at us 911 00:50:53,360 --> 00:50:56,680 Speaker 1: with a sword or an axe. But yeah, at least 912 00:50:56,680 --> 00:50:59,560 Speaker 1: with that, I'm not saying that's preferable, But I do 913 00:50:59,600 --> 00:51:02,000 Speaker 1: see what you're saying that it's at least there you're 914 00:51:02,000 --> 00:51:05,520 Speaker 1: acknowledging that something brutal and weird is going on, and 915 00:51:05,560 --> 00:51:07,799 Speaker 1: you can't just you know, clean it up in your 916 00:51:07,800 --> 00:51:10,840 Speaker 1: mind and ignore it because you're hearing the screams and 917 00:51:10,880 --> 00:51:14,000 Speaker 1: it's splattering on you, and it's so brutal that it's 918 00:51:14,000 --> 00:51:16,920 Speaker 1: almost funny. You know. It's interesting. You know, in this 919 00:51:16,960 --> 00:51:20,279 Speaker 1: show we talk about innovation and inventions and how how 920 00:51:20,320 --> 00:51:23,920 Speaker 1: they change the world, and and so often you see 921 00:51:23,920 --> 00:51:26,319 Speaker 1: that that people have to look back and try to 922 00:51:26,400 --> 00:51:29,920 Speaker 1: figure out what changed and how it changed us. Uh, 923 00:51:30,000 --> 00:51:33,239 Speaker 1: And here we are hundreds of years later looking back 924 00:51:33,280 --> 00:51:36,200 Speaker 1: and saying, well, what did the guillotine mean? What did 925 00:51:36,239 --> 00:51:42,000 Speaker 1: it do? And what are the ultimate ramifications of this advancement. Well, 926 00:51:42,040 --> 00:51:45,360 Speaker 1: I positive that maybe one takeaway from it is that 927 00:51:45,760 --> 00:51:48,359 Speaker 1: the truth is it has showed us that there is 928 00:51:48,400 --> 00:51:52,320 Speaker 1: no good or clean or sanitary way to kill a person, 929 00:51:52,960 --> 00:51:55,759 Speaker 1: and any belief that there is, in fact turns out 930 00:51:55,800 --> 00:51:59,799 Speaker 1: to be a kind of brutalizing and dehumanizing illusion. All 931 00:52:00,120 --> 00:52:02,719 Speaker 1: So that's it for this week's episode of Invention. If 932 00:52:02,719 --> 00:52:04,239 Speaker 1: you want to learn more about the show and check 933 00:52:04,239 --> 00:52:07,799 Speaker 1: out other episodes, head on over to our website invention 934 00:52:07,960 --> 00:52:12,160 Speaker 1: pod dot com. Big thanks to Scott Benjamin for research 935 00:52:12,160 --> 00:52:16,040 Speaker 1: assistance with this episode, Thanks to our audio producer Torii Harrison. 936 00:52:16,280 --> 00:52:18,000 Speaker 1: If you would like to get in touch with us 937 00:52:18,080 --> 00:52:20,880 Speaker 1: directly with feedback on this episode or any other, to 938 00:52:20,920 --> 00:52:23,480 Speaker 1: suggest a topic for the future, or just to say hi, 939 00:52:23,640 --> 00:52:25,319 Speaker 1: let us know how you found out about the show 940 00:52:26,080 --> 00:52:28,120 Speaker 1: where you listen from all that kind of stuff, you 941 00:52:28,120 --> 00:52:49,680 Speaker 1: can email us at contact at invention pod dot com.