1 00:00:00,760 --> 00:00:04,400 Speaker 1: Before we begin, Please note this series includes talk of 2 00:00:04,440 --> 00:00:10,760 Speaker 1: suicide and sexual violence. Please take care while listening. So 3 00:00:10,840 --> 00:00:12,600 Speaker 1: I guess we can start driving now. So what does 4 00:00:12,680 --> 00:00:30,560 Speaker 1: beat you over there in ten minutes? However, so I'm 5 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:36,680 Speaker 1: just in the car now. Last night the family gave 6 00:00:36,760 --> 00:00:40,159 Speaker 1: me Sandy's coat that she had with her the night 7 00:00:40,800 --> 00:00:43,720 Speaker 1: that she died, and so I'm feeling a great weight 8 00:00:43,760 --> 00:00:46,919 Speaker 1: of responsibility. I'm taking the coat with me and We're 9 00:00:46,920 --> 00:00:49,920 Speaker 1: going to go to the cemetery this morning. Sandy's body 10 00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:53,080 Speaker 1: is not there, but there's a marker for her, and 11 00:00:53,840 --> 00:01:09,040 Speaker 1: I'm just popping in the address. We're rolling. Yeah, okay, 12 00:01:09,040 --> 00:01:13,400 Speaker 1: so tell us where we are. We're at Greenwood Cemetery. Um, 13 00:01:13,440 --> 00:01:15,560 Speaker 1: it's I think it's the largest one in john Sport 14 00:01:15,600 --> 00:01:18,759 Speaker 1: because there's probably like ten cemeteries here and we are 15 00:01:18,840 --> 00:01:24,480 Speaker 1: in our family cemetery for many generations, many centuries. And um, 16 00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:29,880 Speaker 1: we're about to walk to where Sandy's memorialize. That's interesting. 17 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:31,800 Speaker 1: I wonder what the pennies are. Is that just a 18 00:01:31,959 --> 00:01:34,919 Speaker 1: show that you've been here? I wonder what does anyone 19 00:01:34,959 --> 00:01:38,080 Speaker 1: know what pennies have put on there? For the first 20 00:01:38,080 --> 00:01:40,920 Speaker 1: time I met Kim and she told me about Sandy. 21 00:01:41,319 --> 00:01:44,039 Speaker 1: I don't think she imagined her cousin's story would become 22 00:01:44,080 --> 00:01:47,880 Speaker 1: the subject of an entire podcast. A year went by 23 00:01:47,960 --> 00:01:49,960 Speaker 1: before I asked her if she would be willing to 24 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:53,440 Speaker 1: embark on this project together. I couldn't do it without 25 00:01:53,440 --> 00:01:59,680 Speaker 1: her buying and Kim she was immediately yes, which I 26 00:01:59,680 --> 00:02:02,960 Speaker 1: thought is pretty brave, because when you invite a journalist 27 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:05,920 Speaker 1: into your life, you're opening yourself up to a lot 28 00:02:05,960 --> 00:02:10,200 Speaker 1: of questioning, not all of which is comfortable or feels natural. 29 00:02:11,440 --> 00:02:14,640 Speaker 1: Kim was allowing me to scrutinize her long held belief 30 00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:18,959 Speaker 1: that Sandy was murdered. She was essentially giving me permission 31 00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:22,440 Speaker 1: to check her work and risking the prospect of being 32 00:02:22,480 --> 00:02:29,760 Speaker 1: proven wrong. Early on in the process, she invited me 33 00:02:29,800 --> 00:02:32,880 Speaker 1: to come to Maine to meet the whole family and 34 00:02:32,919 --> 00:02:35,200 Speaker 1: to crash a big birthday party for one of her 35 00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:39,560 Speaker 1: relatives who was turning eighty. This trip it was an 36 00:02:39,600 --> 00:02:43,680 Speaker 1: intense two full days of interviews. For hours at a time. 37 00:02:43,800 --> 00:02:46,799 Speaker 1: I sat down with members of the Bale family, and, 38 00:02:47,040 --> 00:02:50,680 Speaker 1: like an investigative reporter does, I peppered them with questions, 39 00:02:51,120 --> 00:02:54,520 Speaker 1: trying to establish the basic, undisputed facts of the case, 40 00:02:55,600 --> 00:02:58,840 Speaker 1: and a lot of these questions were directed at Kim, 41 00:02:58,840 --> 00:03:01,120 Speaker 1: as she was my conduit to the family and the 42 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:03,880 Speaker 1: one who had spent the most time investigating Sandy's death 43 00:03:03,919 --> 00:03:07,120 Speaker 1: on our own. The final day of my trip, we 44 00:03:07,240 --> 00:03:09,919 Speaker 1: drove to the cemetery where Sandy has a grave marker. 45 00:03:10,880 --> 00:03:13,200 Speaker 1: I only had a few minutes before my flight back, 46 00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:16,520 Speaker 1: but I wanted to get Kim's temperature. After a long 47 00:03:16,639 --> 00:03:22,120 Speaker 1: and emotionally grueling weekend, I'm still processing it. It was. 48 00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:24,560 Speaker 1: It was definitely different to dredge it all back up 49 00:03:24,560 --> 00:03:27,480 Speaker 1: your the questions that you were asked. I was like, WHOA, 50 00:03:27,560 --> 00:03:30,760 Speaker 1: I've never thought about those things before. And then some 51 00:03:30,840 --> 00:03:32,360 Speaker 1: of the things that we came up with that I 52 00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:35,040 Speaker 1: thought were solid evidence and now we got to figure 53 00:03:35,080 --> 00:03:39,520 Speaker 1: out what it means and what it all was. But 54 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:43,080 Speaker 1: that was a little disturbing. But the questions you asked, 55 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:48,080 Speaker 1: we're we're pretty uh. They caught They caught me by surprise. 56 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:51,240 Speaker 1: I have more questions than I thought I did, and 57 00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:55,080 Speaker 1: I'll send them to you. I'm trusting that it's all 58 00:03:55,080 --> 00:03:57,200 Speaker 1: going to unfold and we'll get the answers that we 59 00:03:57,280 --> 00:04:02,240 Speaker 1: need to help bring some closure for them. Well for 60 00:04:02,320 --> 00:04:05,600 Speaker 1: me too. I'm so glad you guys came up here. 61 00:04:05,640 --> 00:04:07,760 Speaker 1: I can't believe you'd come to jal Sport nine and 62 00:04:07,880 --> 00:04:14,320 Speaker 1: do this From my heart radio. I'm Melissa Jolson, and 63 00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:17,120 Speaker 1: this is what happened to Sandy Beale and I heard 64 00:04:17,160 --> 00:04:33,120 Speaker 1: original podcast Chapter six, Divided Minds. When I first met 65 00:04:33,120 --> 00:04:36,359 Speaker 1: the Beals in Maine, I made them a promise that 66 00:04:36,400 --> 00:04:39,120 Speaker 1: I would keep an open mind and follow the evidence, 67 00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:42,080 Speaker 1: and I wouldn't be swayed by one side or the other. 68 00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:45,240 Speaker 1: It was clear from the get go that there were 69 00:04:45,320 --> 00:04:49,000 Speaker 1: two opposing sides here. Mine so divided that there was 70 00:04:49,160 --> 00:04:52,159 Speaker 1: very little agreement on what the most basic facts meant. 71 00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:56,280 Speaker 1: The Prince George's County Police Department and the Bell family 72 00:04:56,680 --> 00:05:00,880 Speaker 1: had examined the exact same documents. Dice did the exact 73 00:05:00,960 --> 00:05:05,280 Speaker 1: same set of facts and come to wildly divergent conclusions 74 00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:09,200 Speaker 1: about what happened to Sandy. As a pair of fresh 75 00:05:09,240 --> 00:05:12,240 Speaker 1: eyes on the case, I wondered whether both sides were 76 00:05:12,279 --> 00:05:16,279 Speaker 1: trapped in their own cycles of confirmation bias, processing the 77 00:05:16,320 --> 00:05:21,120 Speaker 1: information in a way that aligned with their own preconceived ideas. 78 00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:24,800 Speaker 1: Like the cardboard under the wheels of Sandy's car. The 79 00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:27,799 Speaker 1: Bills interpreted it as a sign that Sandy was trying 80 00:05:27,800 --> 00:05:30,080 Speaker 1: to leave the pollard on the night of her death 81 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:34,359 Speaker 1: and wasn't planning to die by suicide. But this detail 82 00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:38,039 Speaker 1: was not even remembered by Detective sachel Ski. It didn't 83 00:05:38,120 --> 00:05:42,839 Speaker 1: register as important because it didn't fit neatly into his theory. 84 00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:47,039 Speaker 1: We each are bringing our own experiences, our own beliefs, 85 00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:51,279 Speaker 1: our own desires to the table, so that when two 86 00:05:51,320 --> 00:05:54,479 Speaker 1: people with different mindsets are given the same information to 87 00:05:54,520 --> 00:05:57,720 Speaker 1: look at by virtue of their different brains, they may 88 00:05:57,760 --> 00:06:02,080 Speaker 1: interpret those things in very different ways. Jeff Kakuka is 89 00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:06,400 Speaker 1: a professor of psychology at Telson University. He's an expert 90 00:06:06,440 --> 00:06:10,800 Speaker 1: on how bias can influence decision making, including an investigations 91 00:06:11,480 --> 00:06:14,239 Speaker 1: in psychology. When we talk about bias, what we're talking 92 00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:16,680 Speaker 1: about is kind of like a reflex. It's something that 93 00:06:17,040 --> 00:06:20,599 Speaker 1: where brains do without us even realizing that we're doing it. 94 00:06:21,320 --> 00:06:25,200 Speaker 1: Once you have a conclusion in mind, um, you're no 95 00:06:25,440 --> 00:06:30,279 Speaker 1: longer sort of taking in all the information and evaluating 96 00:06:30,320 --> 00:06:33,680 Speaker 1: it in an objective way. Instead, what tends to happen 97 00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:39,680 Speaker 1: is people will selectively seek out information that fits their 98 00:06:39,760 --> 00:06:43,920 Speaker 1: existing beliefs, and if they encounter any information that goes 99 00:06:43,960 --> 00:06:47,359 Speaker 1: against their existing beliefs, will either ignore it or find 100 00:06:47,360 --> 00:06:50,400 Speaker 1: a way to somehow minimize its importance so that they 101 00:06:50,440 --> 00:06:54,120 Speaker 1: can again sort of continue preserving that belief that exists 102 00:06:54,160 --> 00:06:59,120 Speaker 1: in the first place. There's an adage that have thought 103 00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:03,160 Speaker 1: about a lot while making this podcast. It's called Handlon's Razor, 104 00:07:03,320 --> 00:07:07,159 Speaker 1: and it goes like this, never attribute to malice that 105 00:07:07,240 --> 00:07:11,320 Speaker 1: which is adequately explained by stupidity. There's a few different 106 00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:16,160 Speaker 1: versions of the phrase, and sometimes incompetence is subbed for stupidity. 107 00:07:16,760 --> 00:07:20,680 Speaker 1: This proverb, it's a helpful reminder not to immediately assume 108 00:07:20,760 --> 00:07:24,520 Speaker 1: the worst intentions in the actions of others, that more 109 00:07:24,560 --> 00:07:28,520 Speaker 1: often than not people are careless or selfish rather than 110 00:07:28,600 --> 00:07:34,320 Speaker 1: means spirited or evil. Of course, malice exists, but if 111 00:07:34,360 --> 00:07:37,160 Speaker 1: you look for it everywhere, you could risk having a 112 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:43,400 Speaker 1: distorted reception of reality. Take, for instance, Sandy's original death certificate, 113 00:07:43,880 --> 00:07:49,800 Speaker 1: issued on February. It was given to Joanne back then 114 00:07:49,960 --> 00:07:53,560 Speaker 1: and has remained in her possession ever since. At the 115 00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:55,880 Speaker 1: bottom of the page, there's a line with a medical 116 00:07:55,880 --> 00:08:03,520 Speaker 1: examiner must indicate the manner of death. Choosing between natural causes, homicide, suicide, accident, 117 00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:07,680 Speaker 1: or undetermined, you would expect the box for suicide to 118 00:08:07,720 --> 00:08:11,880 Speaker 1: be checked, but it's not. Instead, there's an X through 119 00:08:11,880 --> 00:08:16,360 Speaker 1: the box undetermined manner of death. It was always an 120 00:08:16,360 --> 00:08:20,280 Speaker 1: odd inconsistency that bothered the family, and a few years 121 00:08:20,280 --> 00:08:24,520 Speaker 1: ago it got even weirder. Kim requested a new copy 122 00:08:24,560 --> 00:08:28,520 Speaker 1: of Sandy's death certificate. When she received the document, she 123 00:08:28,640 --> 00:08:31,640 Speaker 1: was startled to find that the box for suicide now 124 00:08:31,720 --> 00:08:36,200 Speaker 1: had an X two. Kim's immediate impression was that the 125 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:39,360 Speaker 1: records might have been altered to fit with the police's story, 126 00:08:40,320 --> 00:08:44,320 Speaker 1: And it's entirely possible that the medical examiner's office colluded 127 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:47,440 Speaker 1: with the police to cover up for death. But the 128 00:08:47,520 --> 00:08:51,920 Speaker 1: possibility also exists that it's just a typo that the 129 00:08:51,960 --> 00:08:55,520 Speaker 1: medical examiner initially stamped the wrong box and fixed it 130 00:08:55,600 --> 00:09:02,760 Speaker 1: later incompetence or malice. That's the thing is, these biases 131 00:09:02,800 --> 00:09:06,040 Speaker 1: are so pervasive that they can affect every aspect of 132 00:09:06,040 --> 00:09:09,400 Speaker 1: our decision making without even us realizing that it's happening. 133 00:09:10,240 --> 00:09:12,960 Speaker 1: We have these beliefs, and our brain is wired in 134 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:16,720 Speaker 1: such a way that leads us to pursue information that 135 00:09:16,880 --> 00:09:20,839 Speaker 1: agrees with our beliefs, rather than pursuing information that might 136 00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:23,520 Speaker 1: prove us wrong, because who likes to be proven wrong. 137 00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:41,800 Speaker 1: It's understandable why Kim and the rest of the Beal 138 00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:46,720 Speaker 1: family was suspicious of Prince George's County police because the 139 00:09:46,760 --> 00:09:50,640 Speaker 1: investigation into Sandy's death was tainted by a clear conflict 140 00:09:50,679 --> 00:09:54,960 Speaker 1: of interest. Sandy was a police trainee and her car 141 00:09:55,040 --> 00:09:58,880 Speaker 1: was filled with evidence linking her to local cops. And 142 00:09:58,960 --> 00:10:01,920 Speaker 1: if PG County police officers were willing to cover up 143 00:10:01,920 --> 00:10:06,000 Speaker 1: their sexual misconduct, what other wrongdoing were they capable of. 144 00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:12,120 Speaker 1: If Shachelski could forget the cardboard, what other inconvenient facts 145 00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:16,200 Speaker 1: might have evaded his memory? Without trust in the police, 146 00:10:16,679 --> 00:10:20,320 Speaker 1: the Bills were skeptical of everything they were told. And 147 00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:22,160 Speaker 1: this is where I thought I could be of help. 148 00:10:22,840 --> 00:10:25,720 Speaker 1: I wanted to bring in some unbiased experts to try 149 00:10:25,760 --> 00:10:29,079 Speaker 1: to recreate what happened that night in the Pollard, inserting 150 00:10:29,120 --> 00:10:34,080 Speaker 1: some impartiality into Sandy's case. That's how I met Paul Rybay, 151 00:10:34,280 --> 00:10:37,440 Speaker 1: a certified forensic pathologist who has worked for the U. S. 152 00:10:37,520 --> 00:10:41,120 Speaker 1: Army as well as local and state agencies. He told 153 00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:45,240 Speaker 1: me he's performed over autopsies in his career, and hundreds 154 00:10:45,240 --> 00:10:48,480 Speaker 1: of those have been suicides. I gave him the rundown 155 00:10:48,600 --> 00:10:53,360 Speaker 1: on Sandy's case, the keys in the ignition and the 156 00:10:53,400 --> 00:10:57,000 Speaker 1: cardboard under the wheels while she's in the mud, that 157 00:10:57,120 --> 00:10:59,560 Speaker 1: might indicate that Sandy had been trying to leave the 158 00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:02,440 Speaker 1: location him that she was at. How do you interpret 159 00:11:02,520 --> 00:11:05,559 Speaker 1: this kind of information in the context of a suicide. 160 00:11:06,480 --> 00:11:09,959 Speaker 1: I would lump that in with Okay, what's the timeline? 161 00:11:10,480 --> 00:11:13,920 Speaker 1: What happened in the hours before her death? You know, 162 00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:16,920 Speaker 1: even you know, going back like twenty four hours? Why 163 00:11:17,040 --> 00:11:19,480 Speaker 1: was she there, who was she meeting with? Who did 164 00:11:19,480 --> 00:11:21,920 Speaker 1: she have relations with? You know? And that would answer 165 00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:25,160 Speaker 1: the question why are their cardboard under the tires? All 166 00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:29,200 Speaker 1: these questions he's asking, they're great ones. We don't have 167 00:11:29,240 --> 00:11:32,480 Speaker 1: answers to them, though, because PG County Police closed the 168 00:11:32,480 --> 00:11:37,079 Speaker 1: case before establishing these facts, that on its face isn't 169 00:11:37,080 --> 00:11:42,840 Speaker 1: necessarily suspect Paul said, Is every death investigated to the 170 00:11:42,920 --> 00:11:47,760 Speaker 1: absolute extreme of pushing the investigation as far as we can, 171 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:52,760 Speaker 1: interviewing absolutely everyone possible, and you know, doing a full 172 00:11:52,760 --> 00:11:56,439 Speaker 1: court press on every case. No, And that's just that's 173 00:11:56,480 --> 00:12:01,000 Speaker 1: that's largely a matter of resources and resource allocation. This 174 00:12:01,160 --> 00:12:04,520 Speaker 1: reminded me of what Detective Selski told me about how 175 00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:08,160 Speaker 1: overworked and understaffed he was back in the nineteen seventies. 176 00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:14,920 Speaker 1: I mean, they us like, don't they really did? Selski 177 00:12:15,040 --> 00:12:17,640 Speaker 1: told me that his immediate read of the scene was 178 00:12:17,679 --> 00:12:21,120 Speaker 1: that of a suicide. There was ample evidence of it, 179 00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:25,120 Speaker 1: he said, and one of the biggest factors was the gun. 180 00:12:25,760 --> 00:12:28,440 Speaker 1: If it was as side, if it was a murder. 181 00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:32,200 Speaker 1: First off, I don't think the killer when I left 182 00:12:32,200 --> 00:12:37,160 Speaker 1: the gun there. Then when I found out the gun 183 00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:42,240 Speaker 1: blown to her father, it's not likely that someone would 184 00:12:42,240 --> 00:12:46,200 Speaker 1: have murdered her with her father's gun. But from the 185 00:12:46,240 --> 00:12:49,920 Speaker 1: Bill's perspective, the gun is the most important piece of 186 00:12:49,920 --> 00:12:55,160 Speaker 1: evidence that proves Sandy didn't die by suicide. The gun 187 00:12:55,360 --> 00:12:59,079 Speaker 1: isn't abstract to them. It was returned to the family 188 00:12:59,240 --> 00:13:03,520 Speaker 1: after Sandy's death. Sandy's brothers have shot it. They know 189 00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:06,440 Speaker 1: the power it takes, the kick back after you pull 190 00:13:06,480 --> 00:13:10,480 Speaker 1: the trigger, and based on their personal experience, they came 191 00:13:10,520 --> 00:13:13,680 Speaker 1: to believe she couldn't have shot herself with it. Not 192 00:13:13,840 --> 00:13:17,360 Speaker 1: that Sandy wouldn't, although they also believe that, but that 193 00:13:17,559 --> 00:13:21,640 Speaker 1: she couldn't. That the physical evidence just didn't line up. 194 00:13:22,640 --> 00:13:25,559 Speaker 1: Here's Michael and Stephen. The thing about that gun. It 195 00:13:25,679 --> 00:13:28,000 Speaker 1: was a three fift or seven, and it was a 196 00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:33,440 Speaker 1: long gun, long barrel right gun. And when that when 197 00:13:33,480 --> 00:13:35,880 Speaker 1: you shot that thing, it kicked, I mean it had 198 00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:39,079 Speaker 1: a kick to it, so she would have to use 199 00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:42,640 Speaker 1: two hands in order to shoot it. And a trigger 200 00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:44,720 Speaker 1: wasn't a hair trigger either. It had a couple of 201 00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:49,040 Speaker 1: pounds of pulled So, uh, that's the other thing, you know. 202 00:13:49,080 --> 00:13:51,960 Speaker 1: That kind of got me about why they said she 203 00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:55,679 Speaker 1: would shoot herself, because if she was able to manage that, 204 00:13:55,840 --> 00:13:58,320 Speaker 1: that freaking gun would have shot off, would have taken 205 00:13:58,320 --> 00:14:02,079 Speaker 1: off right through the day side glass window. And Kim 206 00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:05,760 Speaker 1: shared this opinion that it was impossible Sandy shot herself. 207 00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:08,520 Speaker 1: And when I met with the Prince George's County police, 208 00:14:08,559 --> 00:14:12,440 Speaker 1: they were so insistent on you just don't understand. We've 209 00:14:12,440 --> 00:14:14,760 Speaker 1: seen lots of things like that. And I finally just said, 210 00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:17,800 Speaker 1: if you can prove to me through ballistics and show 211 00:14:17,840 --> 00:14:21,280 Speaker 1: me the trajectory and all the opportunities that this was suicide, 212 00:14:21,320 --> 00:14:24,080 Speaker 1: then I'll believe you. But not until then all your 213 00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:27,960 Speaker 1: evidence completely goes against the evidence that I have she 214 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:35,760 Speaker 1: did not commit suicide. Listening to Detective Sachelski and the 215 00:14:35,760 --> 00:14:39,480 Speaker 1: Bell family, I was faced with two different interpretations of 216 00:14:39,520 --> 00:14:43,000 Speaker 1: the same evidence, and so I asked Paul for his opinion, 217 00:14:43,680 --> 00:14:47,760 Speaker 1: and he turned my attention to Sandy's hands. When you 218 00:14:47,840 --> 00:14:51,080 Speaker 1: fire a revolver, especially at three fifty seven magnum, there's 219 00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:54,480 Speaker 1: allowed a lot of gunpowder that explodes, and a lot 220 00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:57,560 Speaker 1: of that gunpowder comes out through what's called the cylinder gap. 221 00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:01,240 Speaker 1: So say, if you have your hand and over that 222 00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:05,320 Speaker 1: cylinder gap, or even adjacent to it, when you discharge it, 223 00:15:05,760 --> 00:15:08,760 Speaker 1: you can get you sit on your hand. That way, 224 00:15:09,160 --> 00:15:12,360 Speaker 1: both of Sandy's hands had gunpowder on them, according to 225 00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:15,960 Speaker 1: the police report. Paul said he would interpret this to 226 00:15:16,080 --> 00:15:19,040 Speaker 1: mean that Sandy was either holding the gun or had 227 00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:21,400 Speaker 1: her hands very close to it when it was fired. 228 00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:25,600 Speaker 1: So would it be possible to have sit on your 229 00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:28,120 Speaker 1: hands and not have been the one to pull the trigger? 230 00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:31,960 Speaker 1: If you were in a small, enclosed environment, it could 231 00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:33,680 Speaker 1: be like if you were grabbing for the gun to 232 00:15:33,680 --> 00:15:37,600 Speaker 1: push it away or something like that. I've done cases 233 00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:43,520 Speaker 1: where two people are struggling for a gun and the 234 00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:47,640 Speaker 1: gun goes off, and it's very difficult to tell who 235 00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:50,880 Speaker 1: you know who pulled the trigger, because they both might 236 00:15:50,920 --> 00:15:52,800 Speaker 1: have had their finger on the trigger, or someone had 237 00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:55,440 Speaker 1: their finger on the trigger and the other person, you know, 238 00:15:55,600 --> 00:15:58,640 Speaker 1: is grabbing their hand to try and either keep them 239 00:15:58,680 --> 00:16:01,840 Speaker 1: from pulling the usually to keep them from pulling the trigger. 240 00:16:02,240 --> 00:16:05,160 Speaker 1: Paul pointed out that Sandy was also shot at very 241 00:16:05,200 --> 00:16:09,680 Speaker 1: close range, which is characteristic of a suicide. Now, if 242 00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:12,160 Speaker 1: it's a contact wound, it's either one of two things. 243 00:16:12,160 --> 00:16:14,160 Speaker 1: Either the person put the gun to their head and 244 00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:17,280 Speaker 1: pull the trigger. In this case, put the gun to 245 00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:19,280 Speaker 1: you know, she put the gun to her abdomen and 246 00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:22,000 Speaker 1: pull the trigger, or someone else put the gun to 247 00:16:22,040 --> 00:16:24,760 Speaker 1: her abdomen and pull the trigger. And then that's where, Okay, 248 00:16:24,960 --> 00:16:29,160 Speaker 1: we're looking for We're looking for other evidence to support 249 00:16:29,200 --> 00:16:35,440 Speaker 1: that or rule that out. So I can tell you 250 00:16:35,480 --> 00:16:37,680 Speaker 1: the range, I can tell you the trajectory. I can 251 00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:40,440 Speaker 1: tell you what it injured. I can tell you, you know, 252 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:45,280 Speaker 1: I can give you maybe a little estimate of survivability maybe, 253 00:16:46,040 --> 00:16:49,120 Speaker 1: so I can tell you all of those things, but 254 00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:53,880 Speaker 1: I can't tell you who shot it. I asked him 255 00:16:53,880 --> 00:16:57,080 Speaker 1: about the lack of fingerprints on the gun. Turns out 256 00:16:57,160 --> 00:17:01,240 Speaker 1: Paul didn't find this that unusual. Fire Arms are notoriously 257 00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:05,679 Speaker 1: hard to test for prints. One study estimated that fingerprints 258 00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:09,480 Speaker 1: are recovered from firearms only about percent of the time, 259 00:17:10,200 --> 00:17:14,280 Speaker 1: and that's nowadays because of say, you know, the texture 260 00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:17,960 Speaker 1: on the handle or just a partial print at a 261 00:17:18,040 --> 00:17:20,400 Speaker 1: odd location of the gun, they might not be able 262 00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:23,159 Speaker 1: to get it. And I would also have to know, Okay, 263 00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:27,679 Speaker 1: what is the fingerprinting policies and procedures of the Prince 264 00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:32,520 Speaker 1: George's County Police departments circle, and you know, did they 265 00:17:32,560 --> 00:17:37,800 Speaker 1: follow that procedure. Reading the autopsy report, Sandy's gunshot wound 266 00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:42,919 Speaker 1: is described in excruciating and impersonal detail. Quote. The wound 267 00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:46,240 Speaker 1: is slightly ovoid, a quarter inch in diameter, and is 268 00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:50,200 Speaker 1: surrounded by an eighth inch rim of abrasion resembling muzzle imprint. 269 00:17:51,119 --> 00:17:55,240 Speaker 1: Powder is noted in the wound margins. I asked Paul, 270 00:17:55,840 --> 00:17:58,920 Speaker 1: based on everything that's in the autopsy and the police report, 271 00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:03,879 Speaker 1: and take into consideration the family's significant questions, if it 272 00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:09,399 Speaker 1: was possible that Sandy shot herself, if you put your 273 00:18:09,760 --> 00:18:12,800 Speaker 1: hand right at the base of your rib cage or 274 00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:15,920 Speaker 1: base of your stern um, move it over about three 275 00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:20,200 Speaker 1: inches to the bottom of your rib margin, that's where 276 00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:24,280 Speaker 1: the entrance was. Now. Once again, if she were to 277 00:18:24,359 --> 00:18:29,680 Speaker 1: do this herself, she could fire the gun essentially holding 278 00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:32,200 Speaker 1: the handle of the gun with her gun with her 279 00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:36,120 Speaker 1: with her left thumb on the trigger, which is sort 280 00:18:36,119 --> 00:18:40,520 Speaker 1: of like holding it backwards essentially, which is consistent with 281 00:18:40,520 --> 00:18:43,960 Speaker 1: her kind of holding her left hand across her body, 282 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:47,520 Speaker 1: so to speak, and then likely firing the gun with 283 00:18:47,560 --> 00:18:50,840 Speaker 1: her thumb on the trigger, and that could also explain 284 00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:53,640 Speaker 1: why they didn't find any fingerprints on the gun as well. 285 00:18:55,720 --> 00:18:59,040 Speaker 1: Paul could see a scenario in which Sandy shot herself 286 00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:03,240 Speaker 1: and caused there He's described in her autopsy. What had 287 00:19:03,280 --> 00:19:09,119 Speaker 1: been unthinkable to the Beals was a real probability to Paul. Still, 288 00:19:09,240 --> 00:19:12,960 Speaker 1: he admitted that the case was unusual. How many times 289 00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:15,159 Speaker 1: in your career, if you remember, have you seen a 290 00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:20,560 Speaker 1: teenage girl shoot herself? Probably less than five ever in 291 00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:41,440 Speaker 1: the apt hunt, the stories Sandy's family tell about her 292 00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:46,119 Speaker 1: emphasize her sense of humor and her protective instincts. She 293 00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:48,920 Speaker 1: was quick to speak her mind and stand up for herself. 294 00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:54,120 Speaker 1: Her family knew her to be cheerful, focus hard working. 295 00:19:54,920 --> 00:19:58,359 Speaker 1: She was a well adjusted kid who they trusted, and 296 00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:01,560 Speaker 1: based on their knowledge of her as a daughter and 297 00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:05,080 Speaker 1: a sister and a cousin, they didn't believe Sandy would 298 00:20:05,119 --> 00:20:08,879 Speaker 1: take her own life. It was incomprehensible to them, it 299 00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:13,080 Speaker 1: didn't match the person they knew. But during this reporting 300 00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:15,879 Speaker 1: I found out a lot of things they didn't know 301 00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:20,240 Speaker 1: about Sandy, things that were happening in her life, and 302 00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:24,080 Speaker 1: as painful as it is to contemplate now, there's probably 303 00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:26,719 Speaker 1: a lot they didn't know about how she was feeling. 304 00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:33,840 Speaker 1: Sandy died surrounded by police paraphernalia. Her dashboard held a 305 00:20:33,840 --> 00:20:38,800 Speaker 1: shift schedule card, a duty rig and newspaper clippings about cops, 306 00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:42,200 Speaker 1: and she was found in a location where cops life 307 00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:46,199 Speaker 1: to gather. Her family believed that she was protected in 308 00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:49,520 Speaker 1: the presence of police, but I think it's more likely 309 00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:52,080 Speaker 1: that all that time she spent hanging out with them 310 00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:56,600 Speaker 1: was actually an opportunity for abuse. From what I've discovered, 311 00:20:56,960 --> 00:20:59,880 Speaker 1: it seems obvious that at least some police officers took 312 00:20:59,880 --> 00:21:04,720 Speaker 1: it advantage of Sandy pursuing inappropriate sexual relationships with the teenager, 313 00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:09,040 Speaker 1: and in this climate, Sandy became pregnant and had an 314 00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:14,640 Speaker 1: abortion in secret. If she was being mistreated by police, 315 00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:19,280 Speaker 1: then I imagine she would have felt very alone, possibly scared, 316 00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:22,439 Speaker 1: and she probably didn't know how to make it stop. 317 00:21:24,359 --> 00:21:27,919 Speaker 1: Sandy kept these painful parts of her life hidden. She 318 00:21:28,080 --> 00:21:32,760 Speaker 1: presented to the outside world as fine, and to her 319 00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:36,160 Speaker 1: family this was strong evidence that she couldn't have died 320 00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:40,680 Speaker 1: by suicide because they didn't see it coming. Their assumption 321 00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:43,880 Speaker 1: about suicide was that if Sandy had been considering it, 322 00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:46,840 Speaker 1: her pain would have been so visible it could not 323 00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:54,639 Speaker 1: go unnoticed. But that's not always the case. If you 324 00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:59,960 Speaker 1: think about human nature, what makes it up, purpose, meaning, contribution, 325 00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:05,360 Speaker 1: in connection. Thomas Joyner is a researcher at Florida State University. 326 00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:09,480 Speaker 1: He spends his days researching ways to prevent suicide. It's 327 00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:13,200 Speaker 1: a deep puzzle about human nature about why this would happen. 328 00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:16,680 Speaker 1: The bills have not been able to answer this, why 329 00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:19,320 Speaker 1: Sandy would have thought that this was the best option 330 00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:23,840 Speaker 1: for her, and this question is the subject of Thomas's research, 331 00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:27,280 Speaker 1: which explores what's happening in the minds of people who 332 00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:31,800 Speaker 1: are suicidal. If you become that convinced that you're a 333 00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:35,720 Speaker 1: burden on other people, and if you feel like you're 334 00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:42,160 Speaker 1: um disconnected and cut off, ostracized, alienated, if you feel 335 00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:46,679 Speaker 1: those two things deeply and then also permanently that they're 336 00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:50,960 Speaker 1: they're intractable, that there they'll never change that that mixture 337 00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:54,959 Speaker 1: is the danger zone where people might take their lives. 338 00:22:55,880 --> 00:22:59,200 Speaker 1: Of those who find themselves in this dangerous zone of 339 00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:03,679 Speaker 1: feeling deeply alienated, a burden to others, and convinced that 340 00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:08,080 Speaker 1: those feelings will never change, not all attempts suicide. The 341 00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:11,760 Speaker 1: vast majority of people who experience suicidal ideation do not 342 00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:16,040 Speaker 1: act on it. To put it in perspective, around forty 343 00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:19,399 Speaker 1: six thousand people die from suicide every year in the US, 344 00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:24,520 Speaker 1: about a million more attempted, and many many more. Around 345 00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:29,239 Speaker 1: twelve million people seriously think about it. Yeah, it's one 346 00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:31,359 Speaker 1: thing to talk about death in the abstract, but to 347 00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:40,080 Speaker 1: actually face it in reality totally different matter. Not everybody 348 00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:45,800 Speaker 1: has the requisite fearlessness, pain tolerance, even practical knowledge to 349 00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:49,359 Speaker 1: have the capacity to even in act suicide, even if 350 00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:53,720 Speaker 1: they really genuinely desire to do so. Did Sandy have 351 00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:57,000 Speaker 1: those things? I know she had access to a gun 352 00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:01,040 Speaker 1: her father's and her brother Michael actually told me that 353 00:24:01,119 --> 00:24:03,520 Speaker 1: he had seen Sandy take it on a few occasions. 354 00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:07,120 Speaker 1: Sandy said she was borrowing the gun for target practice. 355 00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:09,840 Speaker 1: So it follows that Sandy would have known how to 356 00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:13,760 Speaker 1: use it and suicide as a form of death, of course, 357 00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:18,000 Speaker 1: is fearsome and scary and daunting, and so to face 358 00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:22,240 Speaker 1: it fully, to steer it down, you need a capacity 359 00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:29,040 Speaker 1: to do that. Not everybody hasn't I told Thomas about 360 00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:32,000 Speaker 1: the bells is vivid memory of Sandy as a happy, 361 00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:36,119 Speaker 1: high functioning teenager. Sometimes it does look like that suicide 362 00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:40,640 Speaker 1: does look sudden. What does that mean? Does it mean 363 00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:45,040 Speaker 1: it was truly impulsive? For Might it mean, for example, 364 00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:49,879 Speaker 1: that the person was very successful in concealing their ongoing 365 00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:52,520 Speaker 1: misery and planning. And I think it's the latter. I 366 00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:56,080 Speaker 1: think it's clearly the ladder, But there is debate about 367 00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:59,960 Speaker 1: that and and that that can hurt to the loved one. 368 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:02,600 Speaker 1: It seems like she would have told us, you know, 369 00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:05,560 Speaker 1: we're the family, we're the loved ones. But a way 370 00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:09,680 Speaker 1: to understand that is that she felt maybe that this 371 00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:14,760 Speaker 1: was a profound burden that she's carrying, that she's a 372 00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:17,240 Speaker 1: burden to everybody. She felt that maybe on the inside, 373 00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:22,600 Speaker 1: to share that with others, in her view, might have 374 00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:31,840 Speaker 1: further burdened them. A sudden death in anyone is a tragedy, 375 00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:35,800 Speaker 1: and it doesn't matter what the cause was, that that's 376 00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:40,640 Speaker 1: gonna grieve families, and and and troubled families for years 377 00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:44,679 Speaker 1: or even decades. And then to add the additional layer 378 00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:48,159 Speaker 1: of it wasn't just an accident or an illness, so 379 00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:53,560 Speaker 1: they took their own lives. That hurts. That, that really hurts. 380 00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:58,960 Speaker 1: And and I don't think it needs be very different 381 00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:02,240 Speaker 1: than a car accident or or a heart attack. But 382 00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:05,040 Speaker 1: to get to that place, you have to have a 383 00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:09,640 Speaker 1: particular understanding of the suicidal mindset that most people, most 384 00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:13,320 Speaker 1: families don't have. I asked Thomas what to make of 385 00:26:13,359 --> 00:26:16,520 Speaker 1: the fact that Sandy had plans for the future. She 386 00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:20,080 Speaker 1: was moving to Maine, she was actively pursuing a career 387 00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:23,639 Speaker 1: in law enforcement. Even her abortion could be considered a 388 00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:26,800 Speaker 1: sign that she was thinking ahead, planning for the life 389 00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:30,680 Speaker 1: she wanted. She was still balancing her checkbook right before 390 00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:37,119 Speaker 1: she died. If you have plans, it either means that, uh, 391 00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:39,920 Speaker 1: suicide is not on your mind at all. It can 392 00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:43,800 Speaker 1: mean that, or if you have plans, it can mean 393 00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:48,280 Speaker 1: that there's a struggle going on in your mind, a 394 00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:53,280 Speaker 1: an argument, a debate between death and life, an ambivalence 395 00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:57,199 Speaker 1: that's going back and forth, tilting back and forth, and 396 00:26:57,240 --> 00:27:01,880 Speaker 1: when it tilts toward death, ending for future activities seasons 397 00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:05,280 Speaker 1: pretty much, and planning for suicide kicks on. And then 398 00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:08,479 Speaker 1: when it tilts back towards the other side of the 399 00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:13,680 Speaker 1: ambivalence towards life, then you might, you know, put the 400 00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:17,000 Speaker 1: suicide planning on the shelf, so to speak, and kick 401 00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:23,520 Speaker 1: in plans for activities. And so most go through this 402 00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:29,800 Speaker 1: ambivalence process than most are. All. We'll have plans for tomorrow, 403 00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:33,520 Speaker 1: plans for next week, just like anyone else will. It's 404 00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:36,639 Speaker 1: a striking concept that someone could be planning their life 405 00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:40,240 Speaker 1: one minute then end it the next. And it made 406 00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:43,600 Speaker 1: me think once more about the cardboard under Sandy's tires. 407 00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:47,800 Speaker 1: Could Sandy have been experiencing a struggle in her mind, 408 00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:52,720 Speaker 1: feeling ambivalence between life and death. Maybe at some point 409 00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:56,240 Speaker 1: she was planning on leaving the pollard until she made 410 00:27:56,240 --> 00:28:05,480 Speaker 1: a new plan. I told all of this to Kim, 411 00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:08,879 Speaker 1: what I learned from Thomas about suicide and what I 412 00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:13,199 Speaker 1: gleaned from Paul, who reviewed Sandy's autopsy with me, and 413 00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:16,520 Speaker 1: she listened, took in all the facts with a gentle 414 00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:20,120 Speaker 1: smile and a deferential nod. It was something she would 415 00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:23,200 Speaker 1: need to think about, she told me. So we casually 416 00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:25,600 Speaker 1: said goodbye, and I expected to hear from her soon, 417 00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:29,679 Speaker 1: and I did because as I've been reporting this story, 418 00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:35,440 Speaker 1: Kim has relentlessly continued her own parallel investigation. Every time 419 00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:37,600 Speaker 1: I spoke to her, she had her sight set on 420 00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:41,360 Speaker 1: something new, a new document to obtain or piece of 421 00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:45,560 Speaker 1: evidence to examine. On her list of critical items to 422 00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:49,240 Speaker 1: track down. With Sandy's full medical file, which was held 423 00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:53,160 Speaker 1: at the Medical Examiner's office in Maryland, Kim left me 424 00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:58,200 Speaker 1: this voice memo after her last visit there. Okay, it 425 00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:02,480 Speaker 1: is I think the Johnnie Second. At three o'clock, I 426 00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:07,680 Speaker 1: just left the Medical Examiner's office and when I got there, 427 00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:11,400 Speaker 1: I was like, God just opened the doors, because the 428 00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:13,280 Speaker 1: door just opened. And she's like, Okay, come on it. 429 00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:17,120 Speaker 1: So I got right up to the fourth floor and UM, 430 00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:20,320 Speaker 1: this really nice lady named Linda, and she was just 431 00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:25,000 Speaker 1: most helpful, and UM called the medical records. Medical records 432 00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:27,720 Speaker 1: were familiar with my name already, which was kind of cool, 433 00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:31,240 Speaker 1: you know. And I've showing her I have the autopsy report. 434 00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:33,720 Speaker 1: I don't need the autopsy report. I need the medical records. 435 00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:36,280 Speaker 1: I need slides, I need anything else in there that 436 00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:41,880 Speaker 1: could help me get this case reopened. Although she already 437 00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:44,800 Speaker 1: had Sandy's autopsy, she knew it was only part of 438 00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:47,880 Speaker 1: the file on her cousin's death. She wanted to see 439 00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:50,400 Speaker 1: what else she might be able to discover hidden in 440 00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:54,160 Speaker 1: the depths of the archives. Specifically, she was looking for 441 00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:58,680 Speaker 1: biological evidence the sperm that was collected from Sandy's body 442 00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:01,640 Speaker 1: to see if it could be tested for DNA, and 443 00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:04,400 Speaker 1: she was looking for photos, which she hoped would offer 444 00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:08,760 Speaker 1: new insight into Sandy's death. And after about a half hour, 445 00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:13,760 Speaker 1: Mike came out and, UM, very nice guy. He's retired firefighter, 446 00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:18,400 Speaker 1: retired vet from army. He said, for sure, for any DNA, 447 00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:20,760 Speaker 1: I'm going to have to get a subpoena. There's absolutely 448 00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:24,120 Speaker 1: no way around it. Um he said, there's probably gonna 449 00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:27,120 Speaker 1: be pictures in there. So that's where he was. Sandy 450 00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:30,480 Speaker 1: is very helpful. I know he'll help me. I think 451 00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:36,560 Speaker 1: I've got there. Curiosity intrigued anyway, so I do feel 452 00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:39,440 Speaker 1: like they're gonna help me. Her ultimate goal was to 453 00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:44,280 Speaker 1: stumble onto something, anything that Mike get Sandy's case reopened, 454 00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:48,400 Speaker 1: forcing Prince George's County to take a deeper look. So 455 00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:52,200 Speaker 1: I don't know if we could just get them to 456 00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:56,800 Speaker 1: open it. That would be really awesome. Uh, don't likely 457 00:30:56,840 --> 00:31:00,680 Speaker 1: see that happening because they're pretty convinced that this is 458 00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:05,200 Speaker 1: a suicide. Reopening the case would mean that it would 459 00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:09,160 Speaker 1: be considered an active investigation. Again. It would mean that 460 00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:12,960 Speaker 1: the police might interview Doug, or test the sperm, or 461 00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:16,040 Speaker 1: track down the cops that supervised Sandy in the Explorer 462 00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:20,600 Speaker 1: program so many years ago. Anyway, that's where we stand. 463 00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:29,360 Speaker 1: It was a good meeting. Um, we'll see. Kim flew 464 00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:31,840 Speaker 1: back to Texas with a new agenda of trying to 465 00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:34,760 Speaker 1: get a subpoena to retrieve and test the DNA in 466 00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:39,040 Speaker 1: Sandy's file, But before she could follow through, she received 467 00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:42,720 Speaker 1: an email. It was from Bernie Nelson, a cold case 468 00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:46,960 Speaker 1: detective from Prince George's County. He wanted to meet Kim 469 00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:50,400 Speaker 1: in person to talk. I asked if I could tape 470 00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:54,000 Speaker 1: the conversation and PG County said no. Kim met with 471 00:31:54,080 --> 00:32:00,920 Speaker 1: him and that meeting changed everything. So this is eleven 472 00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:06,760 Speaker 1: o'clock on Monday morning. He asks, UM, so how did 473 00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:14,160 Speaker 1: all this podcast stuff happen? We've talked a lot about 474 00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:18,640 Speaker 1: suicide this episode. If you're someone who knows considering self harm, 475 00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:24,400 Speaker 1: Please contact the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at seven three 476 00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:30,560 Speaker 1: or text Strength to Crisis text Line at seven one 477 00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:38,080 Speaker 1: four one. What Happened To Sandy Beale is hosted by 478 00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:41,360 Speaker 1: me Melissa Jolson. It's written and produced by me and 479 00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:45,040 Speaker 1: Katrina Norvell. The podcast is edited by a bus Afar, 480 00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:50,000 Speaker 1: Sound designed by Aaron Kaufman. Jason English is our executive producer. 481 00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:54,240 Speaker 1: Research and production assistance by Marissa Brown. To find out 482 00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:57,960 Speaker 1: more about my investigation, follow me on Twitter at quasimato. 483 00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:02,920 Speaker 1: That's qu a U. I am a d O. Thanks 484 00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:07,560 Speaker 1: so much for listening. H