1 00:00:00,640 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics, 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:07,120 Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of 3 00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:10,520 Speaker 1: today's best minds. We're on vacation, but that doesn't mean 4 00:00:10,560 --> 00:00:13,119 Speaker 1: we don't have a great show for you today. The 5 00:00:13,160 --> 00:00:16,920 Speaker 1: president of Saint John's College, Jay Walter Sterling, stops by 6 00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:19,840 Speaker 1: to talk to us about why the classics. 7 00:00:19,360 --> 00:00:21,079 Speaker 2: Matter even more than ever. 8 00:00:21,360 --> 00:00:25,800 Speaker 1: But first we have Volts newsletter David Roberts to talk 9 00:00:25,840 --> 00:00:28,120 Speaker 1: about climate change and what it all means. 10 00:00:28,520 --> 00:00:32,320 Speaker 2: David Roberts, I always want to call you, doctor Volts. 11 00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:34,560 Speaker 3: Welcome back, Hello, Good to be back. 12 00:00:34,760 --> 00:00:38,159 Speaker 1: Is it a bad time to write about climate Not really. 13 00:00:38,600 --> 00:00:40,600 Speaker 4: It's sort of like, you know how they're always seeing 14 00:00:40,640 --> 00:00:43,360 Speaker 4: like the media liked it when Trump came back, even 15 00:00:43,400 --> 00:00:45,279 Speaker 4: though it's horrible for the country, it's good for them. 16 00:00:45,479 --> 00:00:47,320 Speaker 3: It's a little bit of that going on right now. 17 00:00:47,360 --> 00:00:51,280 Speaker 4: There is no shortage of things to write about, no 18 00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:53,200 Speaker 4: shortage of things going on, good and bad. 19 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:57,720 Speaker 1: I'd love something good since we're all so fucking depressed. 20 00:00:58,040 --> 00:01:00,200 Speaker 1: Though I did just eat four pieces of chocolate to 21 00:01:00,320 --> 00:01:04,080 Speaker 1: drink five die Cokes, so I'm actually feeling pretty good. 22 00:01:04,080 --> 00:01:07,279 Speaker 1: But give us something to not want to die over. 23 00:01:08,080 --> 00:01:10,560 Speaker 4: Well, the things that have been going on for the 24 00:01:10,600 --> 00:01:13,520 Speaker 4: last decade are still going on. Basically, solar and wind 25 00:01:13,520 --> 00:01:16,600 Speaker 4: are getting cheaper and cheaper, batteries are getting cheaper and cheaper. 26 00:01:16,720 --> 00:01:20,360 Speaker 4: Business models are updating to help spread those things. You know, 27 00:01:20,480 --> 00:01:25,760 Speaker 4: Electrification is proceeding like crazy. China is producing so much 28 00:01:25,880 --> 00:01:31,000 Speaker 4: cheap solar panels that they're decarbonizing their neighbors, Pakistan and 29 00:01:31,120 --> 00:01:36,000 Speaker 4: what Vietnam, Africa Now they're starting to import solar panels. 30 00:01:36,040 --> 00:01:39,360 Speaker 4: So all the rest of the world, like literally the 31 00:01:39,360 --> 00:01:41,920 Speaker 4: rest of the world is going forward. 32 00:01:42,160 --> 00:01:44,160 Speaker 2: It's going to be going before we are. 33 00:01:44,360 --> 00:01:47,120 Speaker 4: We are literally getting off a train that has just 34 00:01:47,160 --> 00:01:50,320 Speaker 4: now sort of reached a speed that it's unstoppable. It's 35 00:01:50,480 --> 00:01:54,920 Speaker 4: unstoppable freight train towards clean electrification, and right at this juncture, 36 00:01:55,160 --> 00:01:58,800 Speaker 4: we're basically hopping off the train trying to kill our 37 00:01:59,200 --> 00:02:02,080 Speaker 4: domestic solar and wind industries and trying to double down 38 00:02:02,120 --> 00:02:05,760 Speaker 4: on fossil fuels. So no good news from within the US, 39 00:02:05,800 --> 00:02:08,280 Speaker 4: as you're very aware, but lots of good news elsewhere. 40 00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:10,600 Speaker 1: So let's talk about this because this has along been 41 00:02:10,680 --> 00:02:14,960 Speaker 1: the thesis of my long suffering spouse, which is solar 42 00:02:15,520 --> 00:02:20,600 Speaker 1: and wind is going to be so cheap that it's irresistible. 43 00:02:20,880 --> 00:02:22,160 Speaker 3: Well, it already is. 44 00:02:22,440 --> 00:02:24,840 Speaker 4: I mean, I forget the exact figure that the IEA 45 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:28,120 Speaker 4: came out with, but something like eighty to ninety percent 46 00:02:28,639 --> 00:02:32,240 Speaker 4: of the new power generation being built in the world 47 00:02:32,840 --> 00:02:36,560 Speaker 4: is solar and wind like it already is irresistible. It 48 00:02:36,600 --> 00:02:40,320 Speaker 4: already is the cheapest thing. And batteries now are getting 49 00:02:40,919 --> 00:02:43,280 Speaker 4: just as cheap, and that is solving a lot of 50 00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:46,799 Speaker 4: the you know problems of variability. You know, it comes 51 00:02:46,840 --> 00:02:49,240 Speaker 4: and goes with the weather. Batteries are smoothing that out. 52 00:02:49,360 --> 00:02:55,240 Speaker 4: Demand response is smoothing that out, So that is already happening. 53 00:02:55,680 --> 00:02:58,320 Speaker 4: That's why most of the new power generation that is 54 00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:00,880 Speaker 4: going into effect in the world is clean. 55 00:03:01,480 --> 00:03:06,480 Speaker 1: So building coal plants or building fossil fuel plants or 56 00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:10,919 Speaker 1: build a drill, baby drill or coal, they're just much 57 00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:13,280 Speaker 1: more expensive, right. I mean, we're going to do it 58 00:03:13,320 --> 00:03:16,480 Speaker 1: here because Trump wants to help those industries. But that's 59 00:03:16,520 --> 00:03:18,639 Speaker 1: why our electricity is going up here. 60 00:03:18,760 --> 00:03:21,440 Speaker 4: Right, Well, there are a couple of things going on 61 00:03:21,560 --> 00:03:25,760 Speaker 4: with the electricity prices going up that is not generation. 62 00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:31,000 Speaker 4: The actual costs of generation are going down, mainly because 63 00:03:31,240 --> 00:03:33,360 Speaker 4: all of the solar and wind is coming onl what's 64 00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:36,760 Speaker 4: going up, what's pushing prices up is mostly what's called 65 00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:40,360 Speaker 4: T and D transmission and distribution. It is getting the 66 00:03:40,440 --> 00:03:43,840 Speaker 4: power to us. Those are where costs are going up 67 00:03:43,840 --> 00:03:46,920 Speaker 4: and up because we have not maintained our transmission system. 68 00:03:46,920 --> 00:03:50,320 Speaker 4: We haven't built enough new transmission. All our distribution systems, 69 00:03:50,320 --> 00:03:54,800 Speaker 4: the local systems are very old and aging and very analog. 70 00:03:55,360 --> 00:03:59,200 Speaker 4: So there's a lot of just updating of the system side. 71 00:03:59,440 --> 00:04:02,920 Speaker 4: That the the infrastructure side of things, that's where a 72 00:04:02,920 --> 00:04:04,360 Speaker 4: lot of costs And there are a lot of other 73 00:04:04,360 --> 00:04:07,680 Speaker 4: things pushing costs up here and there, like wildfire costs 74 00:04:07,720 --> 00:04:12,080 Speaker 4: in California or in Georgia they built this giant nuclear. 75 00:04:11,720 --> 00:04:12,720 Speaker 3: Plant that they're paying off. 76 00:04:12,760 --> 00:04:14,040 Speaker 4: You know, there are a lot of different and in 77 00:04:14,120 --> 00:04:17,679 Speaker 4: Virginia it's data centers. There's a lot of different things 78 00:04:17,760 --> 00:04:20,159 Speaker 4: going on. They all point to the need to build 79 00:04:20,200 --> 00:04:23,320 Speaker 4: a more robust electricity system basically. 80 00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:26,160 Speaker 1: But data centers, we are just having to pay for 81 00:04:26,360 --> 00:04:28,520 Speaker 1: Google using more electricity. 82 00:04:28,720 --> 00:04:28,920 Speaker 3: Yeah. 83 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:32,200 Speaker 4: Well, there's a lot of people working right now. There's 84 00:04:32,240 --> 00:04:33,919 Speaker 4: a lot of thinking going on. I mean, one of 85 00:04:33,960 --> 00:04:36,359 Speaker 4: the sort of hot topics in Maya area of the 86 00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:39,720 Speaker 4: world right now is how because these data centers need 87 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:41,320 Speaker 4: to hook up to the grid. If you build a 88 00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:43,559 Speaker 4: data center and you're waiting to hook up to the grid, 89 00:04:43,720 --> 00:04:47,120 Speaker 4: you are literally wasting millions of dollars a day in 90 00:04:47,200 --> 00:04:50,520 Speaker 4: opportunity costs. So these people desperately want to hook up 91 00:04:50,760 --> 00:04:53,039 Speaker 4: to the grid, but there's no room for them on 92 00:04:53,120 --> 00:04:57,080 Speaker 4: the grid. So how can we get them to pay 93 00:04:57,240 --> 00:05:00,599 Speaker 4: for the reforms that would make room on the grid? 94 00:05:00,760 --> 00:05:00,960 Speaker 3: Right? 95 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:03,880 Speaker 4: How can we get them to pay for grid upgrades 96 00:05:04,080 --> 00:05:06,720 Speaker 4: rather than us paying for them? How can we get 97 00:05:06,720 --> 00:05:09,240 Speaker 4: a little money out of them to pay to upgrade 98 00:05:09,240 --> 00:05:11,719 Speaker 4: our grid? And the amount of money molly that is 99 00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:15,000 Speaker 4: going into AI and data centers, you would need like 100 00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:18,360 Speaker 4: two or three percent of that money and you could 101 00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:21,960 Speaker 4: transform the US electricity system just a little bit of 102 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:24,800 Speaker 4: money from that world. You could make a much more 103 00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:28,400 Speaker 4: robust and resilient electricity grid. And there's lots of people 104 00:05:28,400 --> 00:05:30,920 Speaker 4: thinking about how to work that. So, you know, the 105 00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:33,039 Speaker 4: data center comes to the utility says I want to 106 00:05:33,040 --> 00:05:35,159 Speaker 4: hook up. The utility says, well, we don't have any room, 107 00:05:35,440 --> 00:05:38,000 Speaker 4: and the data center says, well, okay, I'll go pay 108 00:05:38,120 --> 00:05:41,920 Speaker 4: to put solar and storage systems on residential houses. I'll 109 00:05:41,960 --> 00:05:46,279 Speaker 4: go pay to replace electrical resistance heating with heat pumps, etcetera, etcetera. 110 00:05:46,320 --> 00:05:48,400 Speaker 4: I'll go pay to do all that stuff, you give 111 00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:50,600 Speaker 4: me credit for it, then let me on the grid. 112 00:05:50,720 --> 00:05:53,400 Speaker 4: So then the actual rate payers get something out of it, 113 00:05:53,720 --> 00:05:56,400 Speaker 4: utility gets something out of it, and the data center 114 00:05:56,440 --> 00:05:57,200 Speaker 4: gets something out of it. 115 00:05:57,200 --> 00:05:59,640 Speaker 3: There's lots of people trying to figure out how that works. 116 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:00,880 Speaker 2: Is that going to happen. 117 00:06:00,920 --> 00:06:03,760 Speaker 1: It's hard for me to imagine that something where we 118 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:06,360 Speaker 1: don't get fucked as a consumers. 119 00:06:06,680 --> 00:06:11,120 Speaker 4: The thing is like data centers have bungled like these 120 00:06:11,160 --> 00:06:14,240 Speaker 4: companies in terms of their PR and their public approach 121 00:06:14,320 --> 00:06:15,560 Speaker 4: are so incompetent. 122 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:18,240 Speaker 3: They have made enemies of everyone. 123 00:06:18,400 --> 00:06:24,000 Speaker 4: Everyone hates data centers, so they desperately need some good PR. 124 00:06:24,120 --> 00:06:25,560 Speaker 3: And this is good PR for them. 125 00:06:25,600 --> 00:06:29,400 Speaker 4: If they could pay for ordinary people to become more 126 00:06:29,440 --> 00:06:32,200 Speaker 4: resilient and have more reliable power, then at least they 127 00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:35,240 Speaker 4: could get a little reputational benefit back. They need a 128 00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:37,120 Speaker 4: PR win. So I think they're kind of over the 129 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:39,320 Speaker 4: barrel here. And it's kind of the same with utilities. 130 00:06:39,320 --> 00:06:42,400 Speaker 4: Everybody hates utilities too, you know. And if the utility 131 00:06:42,760 --> 00:06:45,159 Speaker 4: is seen to just let this data center come and 132 00:06:45,279 --> 00:06:47,840 Speaker 4: hook up, and then everybody else's costs go up. 133 00:06:47,880 --> 00:06:50,440 Speaker 3: Then everybody hates the utility too, so they also have. 134 00:06:50,440 --> 00:06:52,560 Speaker 4: An incentive to get some money out of a data 135 00:06:52,560 --> 00:06:54,919 Speaker 4: center to pay for this thing. So everybody sort of 136 00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:58,200 Speaker 4: right now everyone hates everyone. So everybody needs to figure 137 00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:01,440 Speaker 4: out how to get some a pr win out of this. 138 00:07:01,560 --> 00:07:03,159 Speaker 4: And one way to do that would be to sort 139 00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:05,839 Speaker 4: of like get something out of the data centers in 140 00:07:05,960 --> 00:07:07,600 Speaker 4: exchange for letting them hook up. 141 00:07:07,760 --> 00:07:12,120 Speaker 1: But let's talk about this thing you wrote about governors. 142 00:07:12,160 --> 00:07:15,160 Speaker 1: You can salvage sustainable transport, but you need to do 143 00:07:15,200 --> 00:07:15,960 Speaker 1: a quick. 144 00:07:15,800 --> 00:07:20,240 Speaker 4: There are provisions, I mean these are somewhat obscure wonky, 145 00:07:20,320 --> 00:07:24,080 Speaker 4: but there are provisions in federal transportation dollars that give 146 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:29,640 Speaker 4: governors the power to shift those funds from highways to 147 00:07:29,840 --> 00:07:31,440 Speaker 4: non highway spending. 148 00:07:31,840 --> 00:07:34,120 Speaker 3: And all those funds, as. 149 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:37,320 Speaker 4: You know, are about to get either cut off or 150 00:07:37,440 --> 00:07:42,480 Speaker 4: become much more capricious. Let's say, so the money that 151 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:45,800 Speaker 4: governors have got sitting in their funds right now is 152 00:07:45,840 --> 00:07:48,880 Speaker 4: probably like all that they can rely on, especially for 153 00:07:49,320 --> 00:07:52,000 Speaker 4: non highway stuff. They so a lot of governors just 154 00:07:52,040 --> 00:07:53,720 Speaker 4: don't know they have this power. So the whole point 155 00:07:53,720 --> 00:07:55,880 Speaker 4: of that pology is flag for them, Like you can 156 00:07:56,120 --> 00:08:00,920 Speaker 4: still transfer a bunch of money into transit, public transportation, 157 00:08:01,240 --> 00:08:03,760 Speaker 4: bike paths, et cetera. You can still do that with 158 00:08:03,800 --> 00:08:06,600 Speaker 4: the money you've got now, and you better do it 159 00:08:06,880 --> 00:08:10,080 Speaker 4: because nobody's, at least at the federal level, nobody's going 160 00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:11,880 Speaker 4: to be paying for that stuff for much longer. 161 00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:14,320 Speaker 1: So the rest of the world has gotten on the 162 00:08:14,320 --> 00:08:18,720 Speaker 1: green energy train, right because it's cheaper. You think that 163 00:08:18,800 --> 00:08:22,560 Speaker 1: means we will eventually, I mean, we're going to have 164 00:08:22,640 --> 00:08:24,000 Speaker 1: to write. 165 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:26,200 Speaker 4: Well, no, I mean one of the more fascinating things 166 00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:27,960 Speaker 4: to think about in my world is what they call 167 00:08:28,040 --> 00:08:31,280 Speaker 4: the mid transition. Like you can imagine when the transition's 168 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:35,400 Speaker 4: done and everybody's self sufficient with renewable energy, a lot 169 00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:37,920 Speaker 4: of good things in that world, right, being self sufficient 170 00:08:37,960 --> 00:08:41,199 Speaker 4: for energy rather than importing fossil fuels from elsewhere. It's 171 00:08:41,240 --> 00:08:43,280 Speaker 4: a really fundamental change for a lot of countries, and 172 00:08:43,320 --> 00:08:45,440 Speaker 4: it's going to, I think, bring good things. But the 173 00:08:45,640 --> 00:08:50,000 Speaker 4: road from here to there, So as oil demand declines, 174 00:08:50,480 --> 00:08:54,040 Speaker 4: who is selling those last barrels of oil? Who is 175 00:08:54,120 --> 00:08:57,360 Speaker 4: buying those last barrels of oil? What I sort of 176 00:08:57,440 --> 00:09:00,120 Speaker 4: foresee in the next decade or two. Is the the 177 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:03,679 Speaker 4: rest of the world sprinting ahead with electrification and basically 178 00:09:03,720 --> 00:09:09,120 Speaker 4: a shrinking cabal of fossil fuel states clinging to fossil 179 00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:11,120 Speaker 4: fuels for as long as they can, and that could 180 00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:13,400 Speaker 4: go on for decades. That could go on for a 181 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:17,280 Speaker 4: long time until China has basically left us behind because 182 00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:19,959 Speaker 4: they what China understands that we don't understand. I really 183 00:09:20,040 --> 00:09:22,640 Speaker 4: want to make this point to everybody who will listen. 184 00:09:23,040 --> 00:09:26,760 Speaker 4: If you want AI dominance, which everybody in the government 185 00:09:26,880 --> 00:09:31,520 Speaker 4: says they do, everybody says I don't. Let's just grant 186 00:09:31,520 --> 00:09:35,960 Speaker 4: the premise if you want AI dominance, you can't get 187 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:39,200 Speaker 4: that with just models and ideas. You need to own 188 00:09:39,640 --> 00:09:43,920 Speaker 4: the physical substrate that makes it possible, and that is 189 00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:49,480 Speaker 4: electric motors, batteries, magnets, things that you produce like if 190 00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:52,240 Speaker 4: you want AI dominance, you also need to dominate or 191 00:09:52,280 --> 00:09:55,000 Speaker 4: at least have a foot in the supply chain. And 192 00:09:55,040 --> 00:09:58,240 Speaker 4: we have let China eat our lunch on this. They 193 00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:04,880 Speaker 4: own the electrifica technologies, they own the electrification supply chain. 194 00:10:04,960 --> 00:10:08,040 Speaker 4: So even if we achieve something in AI, we're still 195 00:10:08,040 --> 00:10:11,680 Speaker 4: going to be buying all our AI equipment from China, 196 00:10:11,760 --> 00:10:14,400 Speaker 4: who can cut it off anytime they feel like it. 197 00:10:14,520 --> 00:10:16,079 Speaker 3: Right, So, like, even if you. 198 00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:18,560 Speaker 4: Don't care about climate at all, even if you don't 199 00:10:18,600 --> 00:10:24,400 Speaker 4: care about pollution at all, electrification is a national security imperative, 200 00:10:24,679 --> 00:10:26,720 Speaker 4: even if you only care about AI. 201 00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:29,679 Speaker 1: Right, we're kind of coming into this in the most 202 00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:33,760 Speaker 1: fucked up wid possible right most things. 203 00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:36,000 Speaker 3: I'm not sure exactly where you're referring to, but I. 204 00:10:35,920 --> 00:10:39,520 Speaker 1: Agree to get into wind and solar, Like, we'll be 205 00:10:39,559 --> 00:10:41,160 Speaker 1: set up in the worst way possible for this. 206 00:10:41,440 --> 00:10:44,880 Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, it It depends obviously depends on what happens 207 00:10:44,920 --> 00:10:47,040 Speaker 4: in the next few years. And I don't know, you 208 00:10:47,040 --> 00:10:48,679 Speaker 4: don't know, and nobody knows what's gonna happen in next 209 00:10:48,679 --> 00:10:49,160 Speaker 4: few years. 210 00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:50,640 Speaker 3: I mean, maybe Dems. 211 00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:53,480 Speaker 4: Will take power, and like you know, if you listen 212 00:10:53,559 --> 00:10:56,200 Speaker 4: to the Dems talking about their new energy plans, most 213 00:10:56,200 --> 00:10:58,400 Speaker 4: of it is just putting IRA back into place. 214 00:10:58,559 --> 00:10:59,880 Speaker 3: Like we like IRA. 215 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:03,360 Speaker 4: The Inflation Reduction Act was a great bill designed to 216 00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:06,720 Speaker 4: accelerate primarily you know, these industries. So it wouldn't be 217 00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:10,360 Speaker 4: that hard just to put those tax credits back into place. 218 00:11:10,559 --> 00:11:13,000 Speaker 4: You can imagine that happening, and then we wouldn't have 219 00:11:13,040 --> 00:11:15,040 Speaker 4: lost too much time. You know, you can imagine things 220 00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:17,600 Speaker 4: going a lot of different ways, to say the least 221 00:11:18,320 --> 00:11:20,600 Speaker 4: in coming years. So it's not lost yet. 222 00:11:20,800 --> 00:11:26,040 Speaker 1: What about the sort of temperature damage, like the hydrocarbons, 223 00:11:26,800 --> 00:11:31,600 Speaker 1: microplastics in our brains, Like what about the irreversible stuff? 224 00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:33,520 Speaker 3: Yes, this is true for climate. 225 00:11:33,559 --> 00:11:37,040 Speaker 4: Every bit of it is practically speaking irreversible. 226 00:11:37,120 --> 00:11:38,960 Speaker 3: And it's bad and it's still happening. 227 00:11:39,120 --> 00:11:42,640 Speaker 4: And like you know, Trump won and it's just like 228 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:46,320 Speaker 4: he won by like point zero zero zero one percent, 229 00:11:46,400 --> 00:11:49,920 Speaker 4: and everybody across the nation, just everybody on our side decided, well, 230 00:11:49,960 --> 00:11:52,280 Speaker 4: I guess we suck now and we lose, and everybody 231 00:11:52,320 --> 00:11:54,800 Speaker 4: hates us, and we should stop talking about trands stuff. 232 00:11:54,840 --> 00:11:56,240 Speaker 3: We should toop talking about climate. 233 00:11:56,240 --> 00:11:57,880 Speaker 4: We should stop talking about all the things we care 234 00:11:57,920 --> 00:11:59,559 Speaker 4: about and try to sound. 235 00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:01,000 Speaker 3: Like muted versions of them. 236 00:12:01,200 --> 00:12:02,880 Speaker 4: This is, of course, it's like always the way the 237 00:12:02,920 --> 00:12:06,840 Speaker 4: democratic establishment regards to any loss. So climate has completely 238 00:12:06,920 --> 00:12:10,560 Speaker 4: dropped out of democratic discourse. Like no one talks about 239 00:12:10,559 --> 00:12:13,360 Speaker 4: it anymore, no one, you know, everybody's just decided to 240 00:12:13,440 --> 00:12:16,000 Speaker 4: ignore it. But it is still out there and it 241 00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:19,320 Speaker 4: is still happening, and it is still bad, and I 242 00:12:19,360 --> 00:12:23,760 Speaker 4: think people are still underestimating how bad it's gonna get, 243 00:12:23,880 --> 00:12:26,520 Speaker 4: because there are all these you know, what are they called? 244 00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:30,320 Speaker 4: They call tipping points out there. There's all these thresholds 245 00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:35,320 Speaker 4: that you might pass where things start reinforcing themselves and 246 00:12:35,440 --> 00:12:40,000 Speaker 4: become effectively unstoppable. Where are those tipping points? We don't know. 247 00:12:40,080 --> 00:12:44,760 Speaker 4: We're just enough fog of uncertainty about it and barreling forward. So, yes, 248 00:12:44,840 --> 00:12:48,960 Speaker 4: the imperative to reduce carbon emissions is just as important 249 00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:51,680 Speaker 4: as ever. But I will say I just talked to 250 00:12:51,720 --> 00:12:55,000 Speaker 4: Senator Brian Schuttz about this. His point was just, yes, 251 00:12:55,080 --> 00:12:57,840 Speaker 4: it's true climate is still a problem and still important. 252 00:12:58,080 --> 00:13:01,440 Speaker 4: But if you have a message that says the stuff 253 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:05,679 Speaker 4: that's going to solve climate change is cheaper, right, you 254 00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:08,440 Speaker 4: should use that message, you know what I mean? Like 255 00:13:08,520 --> 00:13:11,160 Speaker 4: you should like exploit that message if you've got it, 256 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:13,760 Speaker 4: if it's true, and it is, then why not lean 257 00:13:13,800 --> 00:13:16,320 Speaker 4: into that, right? So, I mean, the point is just 258 00:13:16,800 --> 00:13:20,800 Speaker 4: that the need to decarbonize, like you could take climate 259 00:13:20,840 --> 00:13:24,280 Speaker 4: out of that picture entirely, and the need to electrify, 260 00:13:24,559 --> 00:13:27,760 Speaker 4: to clean, to do clean electrification would still be just 261 00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:31,680 Speaker 4: as imperative as ever. You can justify it based on AI. 262 00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:35,680 Speaker 4: You can justify it based on international economic competitiveness. You 263 00:13:35,720 --> 00:13:39,160 Speaker 4: can justify it based on particulate air pollution. I mean, 264 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:41,240 Speaker 4: you don't even need to bring climate into it at all. 265 00:13:41,320 --> 00:13:47,560 Speaker 4: The reasons for clean electrification are. It's overdetermined, as they say, right, there. 266 00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:50,800 Speaker 2: Are so many reasons to go to solar. 267 00:13:51,160 --> 00:13:54,400 Speaker 4: And when I'll add one other thing, Trump is busy 268 00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:57,120 Speaker 4: giving a bunch of other countries additional reasons to do 269 00:13:57,160 --> 00:14:00,240 Speaker 4: that by going to them, putting them over the barrel, 270 00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:03,560 Speaker 4: twisting their arms, and forcing them to buy our liquid 271 00:14:03,679 --> 00:14:06,800 Speaker 4: natural gas exports. Right, He's been doing this to countries. 272 00:14:06,800 --> 00:14:09,040 Speaker 4: He's been saying, we won't give you any aid. We'll 273 00:14:09,040 --> 00:14:10,680 Speaker 4: do this and that too. You will punish you with 274 00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:13,240 Speaker 4: tariffs if you don't buy our liquid natural gas. 275 00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:15,240 Speaker 3: Now, short term, that. 276 00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:17,280 Speaker 4: Might get a little bit more of our LNG sold, 277 00:14:17,480 --> 00:14:19,720 Speaker 4: But long term, what do you think those countries are 278 00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:23,320 Speaker 4: taking from that? We do not want this to happen again. 279 00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:25,640 Speaker 4: We do not want to be over the barrel like this. 280 00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:29,320 Speaker 4: We need energy self sufficiency. We need to stop importing. 281 00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:31,440 Speaker 4: He's just going to accelerate all this progress by being 282 00:14:31,640 --> 00:14:32,600 Speaker 4: a dickhead like he is. 283 00:14:32,960 --> 00:14:35,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, Like, is there any where you feel there's really 284 00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:41,600 Speaker 1: exciting climate legislation going on, Climate science advance is going on. 285 00:14:41,960 --> 00:14:45,600 Speaker 4: I haven't really tuned into the science a lot recently. 286 00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:48,240 Speaker 4: I sort of like most of my professional work now 287 00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:51,880 Speaker 4: is pivoted away from climate as such, to decarbonization, to 288 00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:54,400 Speaker 4: the solutions, because like, what you need to know about 289 00:14:54,400 --> 00:14:57,400 Speaker 4: climate we already know. Like if you're a scientist, I 290 00:14:57,440 --> 00:14:59,920 Speaker 4: guess the details are interesting, but like we get it, 291 00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:02,760 Speaker 4: you know, like get we get what we need to do, 292 00:15:02,880 --> 00:15:03,560 Speaker 4: let's just do it. 293 00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:06,680 Speaker 3: Doing it is to me the fun part, the interesting part. 294 00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:10,520 Speaker 1: And do you feel optimistic about the decarbonization It sounds 295 00:15:10,560 --> 00:15:10,840 Speaker 1: like you. 296 00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:13,200 Speaker 3: Do on some timescale. 297 00:15:13,880 --> 00:15:16,720 Speaker 4: I think all this stuff is inevitable for a lot 298 00:15:16,760 --> 00:15:20,440 Speaker 4: of other reasons, but that timescale matters a lot. Those 299 00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:25,040 Speaker 4: We're in a very crucial decade, so every day matters 300 00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:27,200 Speaker 4: a lot, So no one, At no point do I 301 00:15:27,240 --> 00:15:31,480 Speaker 4: feel sanguine about anything. But it is just the case 302 00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:35,640 Speaker 4: that clean technology is better. It is just the case 303 00:15:35,960 --> 00:15:41,520 Speaker 4: that lighting poisonous gases and fluids on fire to create 304 00:15:41,640 --> 00:15:45,880 Speaker 4: controlled explosions is an insane way to do things. 305 00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:47,320 Speaker 3: If you don't have to. 306 00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:50,000 Speaker 4: Do it that way, if there's you know, there's if 307 00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:50,960 Speaker 4: there's a different way to do it. 308 00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:52,080 Speaker 3: You're gonna do it a different way. 309 00:15:52,080 --> 00:15:55,600 Speaker 4: And that is just happening, no matter what anybody says 310 00:15:55,640 --> 00:15:58,840 Speaker 4: about anything in politics, it's just happening. Like those farmers 311 00:15:58,840 --> 00:16:02,560 Speaker 4: in Pakistan are not asking anyone's permission. The government of 312 00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:05,160 Speaker 4: Pakistan had nothing to do with that. It's just farmers 313 00:16:05,160 --> 00:16:07,760 Speaker 4: in Pakistan buying solar panels because they can get a 314 00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:10,280 Speaker 4: little bit of energy and self sufficiency. Nobody has to 315 00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:12,200 Speaker 4: tell them to do it. They don't care about climate change. 316 00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:15,240 Speaker 4: It's all just cheaper power. You know, that's gonna like 317 00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:16,640 Speaker 4: it's inexorable. 318 00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:20,280 Speaker 2: So interesting, also terrifying. 319 00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:24,320 Speaker 4: It's terrifying to be in this decade ruled by these 320 00:16:24,440 --> 00:16:27,840 Speaker 4: people is just very not ideal Moni. 321 00:16:27,880 --> 00:16:28,560 Speaker 3: It's not great. 322 00:16:28,640 --> 00:16:33,560 Speaker 4: And like seeing Ira, seeing the policy program that Democrats 323 00:16:33,640 --> 00:16:36,920 Speaker 4: put in place playing out for four more years would 324 00:16:36,920 --> 00:16:40,400 Speaker 4: have been so transformative. It just like for a lot 325 00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:43,520 Speaker 4: of reasons, it had barely gotten underway. It was like 326 00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:47,440 Speaker 4: barely visible yet it was just starting, so it's easy 327 00:16:47,480 --> 00:16:49,600 Speaker 4: to kind of cut it off without anybody caring much. 328 00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:52,640 Speaker 4: But like four more years we would have made so 329 00:16:53,640 --> 00:16:56,840 Speaker 4: much progress. It is tragic, you know, like you can't 330 00:16:56,880 --> 00:16:58,760 Speaker 4: dwell on it forever, but it is tragic. 331 00:16:59,280 --> 00:17:02,440 Speaker 2: Hw oh David, thank you for coming on. 332 00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:11,240 Speaker 1: We have exciting news over at our YouTube channel. The 333 00:17:11,359 --> 00:17:14,560 Speaker 1: second episode from our Project twenty twenty. 334 00:17:14,440 --> 00:17:16,199 Speaker 2: Nine series is out now. 335 00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:19,520 Speaker 1: It's a reimagining where we examine what went wrong with 336 00:17:19,600 --> 00:17:22,720 Speaker 1: democrats approach to politics and how we can correct it 337 00:17:22,760 --> 00:17:26,480 Speaker 1: and deliver changes to help people's lives. The first episode 338 00:17:26,600 --> 00:17:31,080 Speaker 1: dove into the very sexy topic of campaign finance reform, 339 00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:34,840 Speaker 1: and our second episode deals with an even sexier topic, 340 00:17:35,040 --> 00:17:41,160 Speaker 1: antitrust and regulation. We look at how antitrust and regulation 341 00:17:41,359 --> 00:17:46,600 Speaker 1: can protect American citizens and make America thrive in an 342 00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:51,520 Speaker 1: era of rampant corruption and predatory crony capitalism. We talk 343 00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:55,080 Speaker 1: to the smartest names in the field like Lena Kahn, 344 00:17:55,400 --> 00:18:01,879 Speaker 1: Elvero Bedoya, Elizabeth Wilkins, and Doha Mech. Republicans were prepared 345 00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:04,800 Speaker 1: for when they got the levers of power. We need 346 00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:08,280 Speaker 1: Democrats to be too. So please head over to YouTube 347 00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:11,960 Speaker 1: and search Molly John Fast Project twenty twenty nine or 348 00:18:12,119 --> 00:18:16,960 Speaker 1: go to the Fast Politics YouTube channel and find it there. 349 00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:18,520 Speaker 2: And help us spread the word. 350 00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:23,440 Speaker 1: Jay Walter Sterling is a president of Saint John's College. 351 00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:25,800 Speaker 2: Welcome to Fast Politics. 352 00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:28,360 Speaker 3: Walter. Thanks so much, Molly. It's great to be here 353 00:18:28,400 --> 00:18:28,600 Speaker 3: with you. 354 00:18:28,960 --> 00:18:33,400 Speaker 1: We're going to talk about the remarkable college you are 355 00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:37,360 Speaker 1: the president of, and it is a college called Saint 356 00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:40,399 Speaker 1: John's College. I would love you to explain to us 357 00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:42,800 Speaker 1: what Saint John's College. 358 00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:43,480 Speaker 2: Is happy to do. 359 00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:46,280 Speaker 5: So I'm here on the Santa Fe campus of Saint 360 00:18:46,320 --> 00:18:49,320 Speaker 5: John's College, where I'm the president. We have our sister 361 00:18:49,400 --> 00:18:53,040 Speaker 5: campus in Annapolis, Maryland, and we are often known. 362 00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:54,840 Speaker 3: As the Great Books College. 363 00:18:54,920 --> 00:18:58,239 Speaker 5: Our Annapolis campus is over three hundred years old. Our 364 00:18:58,280 --> 00:19:01,080 Speaker 5: Santa Fe campus is sixty years old. But really we 365 00:19:01,280 --> 00:19:05,119 Speaker 5: date our identity from the introduction of a program in 366 00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:07,560 Speaker 5: the nineteen thirties that was intended to be a kind 367 00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:11,840 Speaker 5: of great renewal of liberal education, of the ideal of 368 00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:16,560 Speaker 5: an undergraduate education being broad and deep and anchored in 369 00:19:16,880 --> 00:19:19,840 Speaker 5: you could say, the classics, the great books, from classical 370 00:19:19,840 --> 00:19:22,000 Speaker 5: antiquity to the present. People who know a little bit 371 00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:25,479 Speaker 5: about us probably think of our students correctly as reading 372 00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:29,080 Speaker 5: Homer and Plato and Aristotle and Shakespeare and Chaucer, and 373 00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:32,960 Speaker 5: that that list winds up sometime in the twentieth century. 374 00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:35,359 Speaker 5: And that's right as far as it goes. But our 375 00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:38,880 Speaker 5: students also do a great deal of math and natural science. 376 00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:44,320 Speaker 5: They all study music. It's an extraordinary multidisciplinary program, but 377 00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:50,000 Speaker 5: without traditional electives majors departments. Our faculty teach throughout the 378 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:53,840 Speaker 5: interdisciplinary program. They're called tutors, and this goes very deep 379 00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:56,240 Speaker 5: for us. They sit at the table with the students, 380 00:19:56,280 --> 00:19:59,159 Speaker 5: they don't lecture from elector, and all classes are small, 381 00:19:59,359 --> 00:20:02,399 Speaker 5: student driven, and every student will learn ancient Greek up 382 00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:06,399 Speaker 5: to a point and translate a tragedy of Sophocles or 383 00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:09,760 Speaker 5: something comparable to that. And every student will work through 384 00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:13,800 Speaker 5: Einstein's nineteen oh five paper on special relativity equation by equation. 385 00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:17,480 Speaker 5: It's an extraordinarily to borrow a phrase from Milton. A 386 00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:21,199 Speaker 5: complete and generous education and one that I believe is 387 00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:23,040 Speaker 5: needed now more than ever. And I'm sure we'll get 388 00:20:23,080 --> 00:20:23,399 Speaker 5: into that. 389 00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:26,320 Speaker 1: My father in law went to Saint John's and was 390 00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:29,879 Speaker 1: a person who became very successful and believes that the 391 00:20:30,119 --> 00:20:33,439 Speaker 1: education changed his brain. And I have a child who 392 00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:36,640 Speaker 1: goes to Saint John's now so and is almost done 393 00:20:36,640 --> 00:20:38,600 Speaker 1: with his four years there. So I wonder if you 394 00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:43,160 Speaker 1: could talk about what it was that got these schools 395 00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:44,680 Speaker 1: started in the nineteen thirties. 396 00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:48,000 Speaker 5: I think that it was a reaction to several things. 397 00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:50,760 Speaker 5: I'll frame it as a reaction to three things that 398 00:20:50,840 --> 00:20:53,439 Speaker 5: to me feel very relevant today. So one was a 399 00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:59,119 Speaker 5: view that undergraduate education was being overdetermined by the model 400 00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:04,000 Speaker 5: of the research universities, So the idea that universities were 401 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:07,520 Speaker 5: going to drive knowledge creation in the sciences, the way 402 00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:11,480 Speaker 5: that that was rolling back in to the undergraduate experience 403 00:21:11,560 --> 00:21:15,920 Speaker 5: in the form of narrow, more specialized majors and disciplinary 404 00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:20,000 Speaker 5: commitments and divisions in what could maybe should be thought 405 00:21:20,040 --> 00:21:23,440 Speaker 5: of as a more holistic kind of educational experience. Related 406 00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:28,040 Speaker 5: to that, the pre professionalization of the undergraduate experience, so 407 00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:30,240 Speaker 5: a kind of loss of the ideal that some people 408 00:21:30,320 --> 00:21:32,440 Speaker 5: might view as a luxury or something like that. Again, 409 00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:34,320 Speaker 5: we can get into that, I think it's quite the opposite. 410 00:21:34,320 --> 00:21:37,679 Speaker 5: But the ideal of your undergraduate experience being first about 411 00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:42,080 Speaker 5: becoming a free and full human being and secondarily about 412 00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:45,399 Speaker 5: career preparation, that that was being flipped and this was 413 00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:48,240 Speaker 5: a reaction to that. And then the third thing that 414 00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:50,120 Speaker 5: I think matters a great deal, This program was put 415 00:21:50,119 --> 00:21:54,000 Speaker 5: in in the nineteen thirties by educational philosophers that were 416 00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:56,760 Speaker 5: involved at Columbia and the University of Chicago and other 417 00:21:56,760 --> 00:22:00,440 Speaker 5: places in comparable efforts over a decade or two in 418 00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:05,199 Speaker 5: which they saw liberal democracy threatened by the rise of 419 00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:08,720 Speaker 5: totalitarianisms of the left and the right. And I think 420 00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:13,080 Speaker 5: it represented a reassertion that we needed something like this 421 00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:15,480 Speaker 5: might sound like an old fashioned phrase, but something like 422 00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:20,760 Speaker 5: a liberally educated citizenry if democracy is going to survive. 423 00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:23,439 Speaker 5: And all of those questions seemed to me to have 424 00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:27,359 Speaker 5: their current and contemporary analogues. But those were the things 425 00:22:27,359 --> 00:22:30,520 Speaker 5: on the minds of the folks who crafted this experiment. 426 00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:33,639 Speaker 5: And again there are related experiments that were happening in 427 00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:35,800 Speaker 5: other places, but Saint John's went all in on it, 428 00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:38,720 Speaker 5: and the whole college became defined by that kind of 429 00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:43,080 Speaker 5: reassertion of those values and building those into the educational 430 00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:43,840 Speaker 5: program that we have. 431 00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:48,000 Speaker 1: I want to talk about the nineteen thirties in totalitarianism, 432 00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:52,919 Speaker 1: was this thinking that education could protect democracy and if so, 433 00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:54,040 Speaker 1: how so. 434 00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:57,040 Speaker 5: There's a lot in there. But I would start from 435 00:22:57,040 --> 00:22:59,280 Speaker 5: the idea that those folks, if you read their writings 436 00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:01,520 Speaker 5: as I do, and they're sort of carried forward by 437 00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:04,080 Speaker 5: the leadership of our college, the view that there's something 438 00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:11,440 Speaker 5: about modern mass society, modern technology, modern communications, that's going 439 00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:17,080 Speaker 5: to make it harder for individuals to own their own freedom, thinking, 440 00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:21,320 Speaker 5: be able to judge for themselves, sort of assert themselves. 441 00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:21,639 Speaker 3: And their agency. 442 00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:23,800 Speaker 5: You know, you might think of arguments that are made 443 00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:27,560 Speaker 5: by Hannah rant in the Origins of totalitarianism, arguments made 444 00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:31,320 Speaker 5: by Alexis to Toakville and democracy in America that suggests 445 00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:35,080 Speaker 5: that modern democracy is going to be vulnerable to things 446 00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:38,199 Speaker 5: that all modern mass societies are going to be vulnerable to. 447 00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:41,879 Speaker 5: How are you going to strengthen citizens to own their freedom, 448 00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:45,160 Speaker 5: own their agency and so on? And these folks, again, 449 00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:47,879 Speaker 5: all these things are worthy of a great deal of debate, 450 00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:50,680 Speaker 5: but they believe, I believe that one way or another, 451 00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:54,160 Speaker 5: what was once called the liberal education is a way 452 00:23:54,359 --> 00:23:57,679 Speaker 5: to equip yourself to think for yourself, to understand the 453 00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:01,800 Speaker 5: ways in which you can be might be are being manipulated, 454 00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:05,040 Speaker 5: To understand why you believe what you believe. Take ownership 455 00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:07,439 Speaker 5: of it, maybe change your opinions, maybe keep them, but 456 00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:10,480 Speaker 5: develop a kind of free relationship to your own thinking, 457 00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:14,399 Speaker 5: your own capacity to reason and judge, to evaluate the 458 00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:17,439 Speaker 5: arguments and the rhetoric coming at you when they thought 459 00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:20,240 Speaker 5: correctly that the modern world was going to put more 460 00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:24,280 Speaker 5: and more pressure and constraint on that individual freedom of 461 00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:26,560 Speaker 5: the intellect, freedom of the soul, however you want to 462 00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:27,080 Speaker 5: think about them. 463 00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:30,080 Speaker 1: I've seen a lot of universities lately, and I've spent 464 00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:32,000 Speaker 1: a lot of time around academics, and one of the 465 00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:35,359 Speaker 1: things that I you know, especially in the American economy 466 00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:39,760 Speaker 1: as it is right now, college is so expensive and 467 00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:43,399 Speaker 1: the question of like what are these people being prepared 468 00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:49,000 Speaker 1: for feels very important right now. So I'd love you 469 00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:53,840 Speaker 1: to talk about how reading great books makes you more 470 00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:57,359 Speaker 1: prepared for life. And I know it's not just reading 471 00:24:57,359 --> 00:24:59,840 Speaker 1: great books. From what I understand, the curriculum is you're 472 00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:04,920 Speaker 1: reworking through history to remake a lot of the discoveries 473 00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:08,480 Speaker 1: that we've seen over history. And I wonder if you 474 00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:13,160 Speaker 1: could talk about what that does for going into the world. 475 00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:14,960 Speaker 5: Right And you know, one of the phrases that's out 476 00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:17,359 Speaker 5: there that we would embrace is that it's, you know, 477 00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:19,640 Speaker 5: much more about teaching you how to think than about 478 00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:22,280 Speaker 5: what to think. And what you just described, you know, 479 00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:24,560 Speaker 5: we do it with philosophy, we do it math and science. 480 00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:26,959 Speaker 5: I'll just give one example that captures a little bit 481 00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:29,760 Speaker 5: of what our students do. You can learn the Pythagorean 482 00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:32,560 Speaker 5: theorem a lot of different ways students learned in high school, 483 00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:35,040 Speaker 5: and geometry and algebra, A square plus B squared equals 484 00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:37,720 Speaker 5: C squared. Our students are going to work through book 485 00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:41,600 Speaker 5: one of Euclid's elements from the axioms to they're going 486 00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:44,200 Speaker 5: to go much further than this, but to proposition forty seven, 487 00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:47,159 Speaker 5: which is the geometric proof of that. And in a sense, 488 00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:49,760 Speaker 5: they'll all have an Aha moment no matter how they 489 00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:52,160 Speaker 5: learned it in high school, that they were given something 490 00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:54,800 Speaker 5: like a calculator or a black box that they just 491 00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:58,119 Speaker 5: took apart and rebuilt for themselves. And this program's kind 492 00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:00,760 Speaker 5: of designed to do that through engagement with the classics 493 00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:04,000 Speaker 5: across all all disciplines. And I think that's very empowering 494 00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:05,640 Speaker 5: in a lot of different ways. But just to pan 495 00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:09,040 Speaker 5: back to the more general question, I think you could 496 00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:11,040 Speaker 5: have argued it in the thirties, you can argue it today. 497 00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:13,560 Speaker 5: I think many people are arguing that this is more 498 00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:16,640 Speaker 5: true now than ever, that the way in which technology 499 00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:19,720 Speaker 5: and science advanced, the way in which the economy and 500 00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:25,000 Speaker 5: industries are increasingly disrupted and changing and evolving, that that 501 00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:29,640 Speaker 5: diminishes the value of the technical skills that get you 502 00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:32,000 Speaker 5: your first job and puts more of a premium on 503 00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:35,040 Speaker 5: the deeper skills. And we give a long, long list, 504 00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:37,320 Speaker 5: and there's not one canonical list, but the kind of 505 00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:42,520 Speaker 5: critical thinking, critical reasoning, synthesis, analysis, the ability to connect 506 00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:47,360 Speaker 5: things across disciplines and across disparate areas, communication. 507 00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:48,119 Speaker 3: With other human beings. 508 00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:50,040 Speaker 5: And I would lean on this very hard in the 509 00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:53,399 Speaker 5: environment we're in right now, the screen saturated environment, the 510 00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:57,879 Speaker 5: automated and AI driven environment, the ability to connect, listen, 511 00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:02,560 Speaker 5: to learn from, empathize with, and engage with other human beings. 512 00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:05,359 Speaker 5: That all of those things have as high a value 513 00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:08,440 Speaker 5: as they've ever had, and maybe higher as we see 514 00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:12,240 Speaker 5: the effects of technological disruption in the workplace. So there's 515 00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:15,119 Speaker 5: an argument there that the liberal arts have long made 516 00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:17,919 Speaker 5: that there's a kind of illusion that if you choose 517 00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:21,280 Speaker 5: a liberal arts education, you're doing something impractical because you're 518 00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:23,560 Speaker 5: actually getting those deeper skills that are going to take 519 00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:26,560 Speaker 5: you farther. But look, I don't get defensive about this. 520 00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:28,760 Speaker 5: Higher adds on under a lot of pressure from a 521 00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:32,359 Speaker 5: lot of different angles, affordability and the question of whether 522 00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:34,480 Speaker 5: people are going to get their return on investment and 523 00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:37,359 Speaker 5: whether this high stakes bet they're going to place is 524 00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:40,840 Speaker 5: the right bet to get them well launched economically and 525 00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:43,640 Speaker 5: in their career. You know, bring it on, I say, 526 00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:46,720 Speaker 5: bring on that argument. Bring on, and a lot of 527 00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:49,239 Speaker 5: educators want to hear me say this. But bring on 528 00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:52,520 Speaker 5: the political pressure and the political accountability. I mean, we're 529 00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:55,000 Speaker 5: not given a free pass as educators. We have to 530 00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:58,479 Speaker 5: make a case to society, to everybody. We're accountable to them. 531 00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:01,239 Speaker 5: And I don't embrace the hand ringing that's going on. 532 00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:03,280 Speaker 5: I mean, I like the things that I'm seeing in 533 00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:05,000 Speaker 5: terms of the pressures on higher ed I think there 534 00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:07,679 Speaker 5: are a lot of negative consequences to them, But no 535 00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:10,520 Speaker 5: time for hand ringing. We're doing something wonderful every day 536 00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:12,840 Speaker 5: on our campuses. We should take joy in it, pride 537 00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:15,680 Speaker 5: and it optimism, and we should believe that we can 538 00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:20,240 Speaker 5: convince skeptics and certainly convince good faith inquirers of the. 539 00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:22,320 Speaker 3: Value of what we do. But you know, just let 540 00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:23,639 Speaker 3: me invoke a couple of names. 541 00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:27,959 Speaker 5: There's nobody who's more future oriented and technology oriented than 542 00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:31,400 Speaker 5: you've all. Noah Harari, the kind of futurist historian. If 543 00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:34,040 Speaker 5: you read his chapter on education in twenty one Lessons 544 00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:37,679 Speaker 5: for the twenty first Century, very explicitly, he's saying that 545 00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:41,840 Speaker 5: what's coming points back to the values that have undergirded 546 00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:44,440 Speaker 5: the tradition of liberal education in the liberal arts. And 547 00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:46,680 Speaker 5: I think you hear that from many different quarters. We 548 00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:49,240 Speaker 5: like to quote as Recline right now because he called 549 00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:52,280 Speaker 5: out Saint John's College this summer in a podcast where 550 00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:55,080 Speaker 5: they were talking about AI and the effect on young minds, 551 00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:57,040 Speaker 5: and he said, look, all of society is going to 552 00:28:57,040 --> 00:28:59,880 Speaker 5: get people prepared for AI related jobs. We need to 553 00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:02,080 Speaker 5: education to be about what it means to be human 554 00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:04,080 Speaker 5: in the age of AI, so that we can go 555 00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:07,520 Speaker 5: out there and engage in a free way, in an 556 00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:10,160 Speaker 5: equipped way, for these disruptions that are coming. And so 557 00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:13,840 Speaker 5: it goes deeper than career preparation, but it converges with 558 00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:18,760 Speaker 5: career preparation. And I think that the narrowly skeptical argument 559 00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:21,800 Speaker 5: is putting so much pressure on colleges to show how 560 00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:24,600 Speaker 5: they're going to get that student their first great job, 561 00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:28,120 Speaker 5: and without giving up on the importance of career, we 562 00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:30,200 Speaker 5: have to pan back a little bit and say, we're 563 00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:33,160 Speaker 5: trying to prepare students for a full life of career, 564 00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:37,640 Speaker 5: citizenship and flourishing in their private and public lives. And 565 00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:40,840 Speaker 5: this kind of education, it gives you those skills, gives 566 00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:43,400 Speaker 5: you that context and gets you out of the narrow 567 00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:47,120 Speaker 5: boxes that so much of the forward momentum of the 568 00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:50,040 Speaker 5: trends in higher education are putting students in gives you 569 00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:52,160 Speaker 5: more than that, gives you something broader and deeper. 570 00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:55,480 Speaker 1: You see, with a lot of colleges, people have specializations, 571 00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:59,360 Speaker 1: even like they applied to certain schools. Right Like, if 572 00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:02,280 Speaker 1: you want to go to University of Michigan, you apply 573 00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:05,600 Speaker 1: to this school or that school. Why does a school 574 00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:09,080 Speaker 1: with no major get a student in a better place? 575 00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:09,840 Speaker 3: Right? 576 00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:12,120 Speaker 5: And it's fair in one way to describe it as 577 00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:15,080 Speaker 5: no major. You could also describe it as a fixed 578 00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:19,480 Speaker 5: interdisciplinary major or a multiple major of various sorts. For 579 00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:22,080 Speaker 5: a long time, we've described it as a double major, 580 00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:25,160 Speaker 5: equivalent to a double major in philosophy and the history 581 00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:29,200 Speaker 5: of math and science double minor and classics and comparative literature. 582 00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:31,480 Speaker 5: That's reasonable, But you could describe it other ways, and 583 00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:33,960 Speaker 5: we'll probably change that description at some point. You know, 584 00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:37,280 Speaker 5: what's missing are all the range of pre professional tracks. 585 00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:40,880 Speaker 5: We do a tremendous amount outside of the four corners 586 00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:43,400 Speaker 5: of the fixed curriculum to prepare our students to launch 587 00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:47,120 Speaker 5: in medicine, in law, in business. We have internship programs, 588 00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:52,320 Speaker 5: internship partnerships. We fund summer study in more technical areas 589 00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:55,480 Speaker 5: beyond our program that students might want to engage, and 590 00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:58,840 Speaker 5: we fund study abroad in the summers. We have a 591 00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:03,520 Speaker 5: lot of curricular programming and career preparatory work that we 592 00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:05,920 Speaker 5: invite our students to take advantage of, and most do. 593 00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:07,640 Speaker 5: And I can talk for a long time about that, 594 00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:11,120 Speaker 5: as you might imagine I do with prospective parents. We've 595 00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:13,640 Speaker 5: already won the battle with you, Molly, so I don't 596 00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:16,600 Speaker 5: have to give you the Heartzell. I'm a parent of 597 00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:19,440 Speaker 5: two high school students right now, and I care a 598 00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:23,320 Speaker 5: great deal about my son's getting preparation for career in 599 00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:26,080 Speaker 5: their college experience, and I hope they'll go to college 600 00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:30,000 Speaker 5: despite the increasing broad skepticism about that. But of course 601 00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:32,720 Speaker 5: they're free to make other choices outside of that as well. 602 00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:34,360 Speaker 5: But again, I don't want to brush away any of 603 00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:36,479 Speaker 5: those concerns. We do a lot, but I think what 604 00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:39,800 Speaker 5: you see in the curriculum itself is the development of 605 00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:43,040 Speaker 5: the kinds of skills and faculties. And I won't belabor 606 00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:45,160 Speaker 5: what I said before, but the kinds of skills and 607 00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:50,600 Speaker 5: faculties of mind, heart imagination that you're going to need 608 00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:54,080 Speaker 5: in whatever direction you go in, and especially if you 609 00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:56,400 Speaker 5: want to rise, right, I mean, there's all kinds of 610 00:31:56,400 --> 00:31:59,120 Speaker 5: evidence that again, if we're not talking about your first job, 611 00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:03,120 Speaker 5: we're talking about rising, that depends much more on communication 612 00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:07,960 Speaker 5: skills well established, right than it does on narrowly technical skills, 613 00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:10,840 Speaker 5: even in technical disciplines. And we could say more about that, 614 00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:13,040 Speaker 5: so you know, for me, just to invoke the image 615 00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:15,160 Speaker 5: that I often do, I say, look our students, what 616 00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:17,360 Speaker 5: are they doing? Almost all the time in class. They're 617 00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:21,040 Speaker 5: sitting around a table, real faces, real voices, a living 618 00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:25,680 Speaker 5: conversation across different points of view, a shared inquiry where 619 00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:28,720 Speaker 5: they're trying to be self critical and learn from others 620 00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:32,160 Speaker 5: points of view. And they're usually doing it with a tangible, 621 00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:35,640 Speaker 5: unhackable book in front of them that they're spending hours 622 00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:39,960 Speaker 5: with that deepens their attention rather than fragments it. And 623 00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:43,160 Speaker 5: just to invoke again another category deep literacy, right, this 624 00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:44,920 Speaker 5: is an idea that's been around for a while. I 625 00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:47,239 Speaker 5: think it's going to become more and more important in 626 00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:50,240 Speaker 5: the post AI world. That became more important really defined 627 00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:53,720 Speaker 5: itself in the post social media world. But as society 628 00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:57,520 Speaker 5: moves towards a kind of postliterate state, in a deep way, 629 00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:00,640 Speaker 5: the value of being able to sit and read Tony 630 00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:04,720 Speaker 5: morrison novel or Homer's Iliot or Newton's Pring Kippie or 631 00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:08,680 Speaker 5: Einstein's nineteen oh five paper or countless other things, to 632 00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:12,360 Speaker 5: sit read, go deeply into those texts, and then be 633 00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:16,480 Speaker 5: able to reason from and about them critically, not reverentially. 634 00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:18,800 Speaker 5: I can't tell you how important I think that is 635 00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:22,840 Speaker 5: for everyone, and how thin those experiences have gotten for 636 00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:26,960 Speaker 5: so many students K through sixteen and so, you know, again, 637 00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:30,760 Speaker 5: let me pause there. But it's those deeper abilities that 638 00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:35,480 Speaker 5: this kind of education develops that apply to so many areas. 639 00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:38,600 Speaker 5: And there are plenty of doors open for our students, 640 00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:41,600 Speaker 5: candidly as there are for philosophy majors and English majors 641 00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:45,040 Speaker 5: and so on, some of the derided disciplines elsewhere. But 642 00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:48,240 Speaker 5: our students also do a great deal of stem, math, 643 00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:51,680 Speaker 5: science and so on, so they're you know, they're Swiss 644 00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:56,760 Speaker 5: army knives of the mind. They're odysseuses of the mind 645 00:33:56,920 --> 00:34:00,680 Speaker 5: that can really journey anywhere effectively. I think that's what 646 00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:02,640 Speaker 5: makes it so powerful for them. 647 00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:05,600 Speaker 2: What are the things that Saint John's kids go on 648 00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:06,600 Speaker 2: to do the most? 649 00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:10,160 Speaker 5: So many go into education. That's not the way they 650 00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:12,120 Speaker 5: think about it. But if you just put it all together, 651 00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:16,279 Speaker 5: K through twelve Higher ed, we're always ranked very high 652 00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:18,920 Speaker 5: in terms of the number percentage of our graduates that 653 00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:22,719 Speaker 5: go on to ourn PhDs and all disciplines, especially humanities 654 00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:27,560 Speaker 5: and social sciences. We're overweighted in jds and lawyers that 655 00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:31,520 Speaker 5: again use those degrees for everything, as you know lawyers do. 656 00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:35,320 Speaker 5: But this education is incredibly powerful for taking that step 657 00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:39,319 Speaker 5: great preparation. Many physicians we don't have pre med but again, 658 00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:42,640 Speaker 5: the way we do science and the kind of blend, 659 00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:47,080 Speaker 5: the rejection of a deep divide between humanities and humanism 660 00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:52,040 Speaker 5: and the sciences is actually wonderful preparation for physicians. And 661 00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:55,279 Speaker 5: many see that, and many people in medicine see that, 662 00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:58,520 Speaker 5: and we produce our commencement speaker last year was one 663 00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:02,040 Speaker 5: of our very successful in and when they talk about 664 00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:04,319 Speaker 5: how this education is a bridge to that, it's very, 665 00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:07,760 Speaker 5: very natural for them. Our standard answer is eric graduate's 666 00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:10,160 Speaker 5: going to do everything, all kinds of things, and there's 667 00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:13,200 Speaker 5: truth to that. We're famous for our Johnny winemakers. I 668 00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:16,239 Speaker 5: can talk about them a lot to you know, entrepreneurs, 669 00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:19,040 Speaker 5: people that go into business, all kinds of disciplines. I 670 00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:22,000 Speaker 5: do believe we lean more towards the things I just 671 00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:28,880 Speaker 5: named than consultants, engineers, computer scientists. We produce some of 672 00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:32,040 Speaker 5: all of those, but if you're highly motivated in those directions, 673 00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:34,920 Speaker 5: you've most likely made another kind of choice with your 674 00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:36,120 Speaker 5: undergraduate education. 675 00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:38,640 Speaker 2: Walter, thank you for coming on. 676 00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:41,439 Speaker 3: Oh it's been a great pleasure. Molly. 677 00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:43,520 Speaker 5: Can I say one more thing we've talked about Saint John's. 678 00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:46,080 Speaker 5: I love Saint John's College, but all the values that 679 00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:49,360 Speaker 5: we've talked about, For me, it matters much much more 680 00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:53,920 Speaker 5: that many many other institutions and educators embrace more, not less, 681 00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:56,240 Speaker 5: of the things that we've talked about. So I often 682 00:35:56,280 --> 00:35:59,000 Speaker 5: finish by saying, we don't need a thousand more Saint 683 00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:02,240 Speaker 5: John's colleges. It's not the kind of thing most students 684 00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:05,040 Speaker 5: will choose. Many will, and I think more will in 685 00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:08,120 Speaker 5: the next generation. But we need a thousand other institutions 686 00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:11,400 Speaker 5: to claw back a little bit of what our students 687 00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:12,880 Speaker 5: do do all the time. And I think a lot 688 00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:15,279 Speaker 5: of educators are waking up to that in response to 689 00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:17,920 Speaker 5: what's going on around us with politics and technology and 690 00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:21,239 Speaker 5: so on. And so may it be so that you 691 00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:24,680 Speaker 5: see more of those tangible, unhackable books, that you see 692 00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:27,479 Speaker 5: more classes where students are seated in a circle around 693 00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:30,319 Speaker 5: the table, and so on and so forth. And I'm 694 00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:32,480 Speaker 5: happy that Saint John's can be a leader and a 695 00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:34,880 Speaker 5: beacon in that movement, but I do think it's a 696 00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:38,160 Speaker 5: movement and a need that goes way way beyond our 697 00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:39,000 Speaker 5: two campuses. 698 00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:42,000 Speaker 2: Agreed. Thank you for joining us. 699 00:36:42,080 --> 00:36:43,279 Speaker 3: Thank you, thanks for the time. 700 00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:48,800 Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in 701 00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:54,360 Speaker 1: every Monday, Wednesday, Thursday and Saturday to hear the best 702 00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:58,719 Speaker 1: minds and politics make sense of all this chaos. If 703 00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:01,800 Speaker 1: you enjoy this podcast, please send it to a friend 704 00:37:02,239 --> 00:37:03,880 Speaker 1: and keep the conversation going. 705 00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:05,440 Speaker 2: Thanks for listening.