1
00:00:02,480 --> 00:00:08,680
Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio News.

2
00:00:18,239 --> 00:00:22,000
Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots Podcast.

3
00:00:22,079 --> 00:00:24,439
Speaker 1: I'm Joe Wisenthal and I'm Tracy Alloway.

4
00:00:24,640 --> 00:00:28,600
Speaker 2: Tracy, we recently did another special live episode at the

5
00:00:28,600 --> 00:00:29,600
Speaker 2: New York Public Library.

6
00:00:29,800 --> 00:00:33,279
Speaker 3: Yeah, a really great venue, a really special evening, and

7
00:00:33,360 --> 00:00:37,000
Speaker 3: fittingly given that we were recording at a library, the

8
00:00:37,240 --> 00:00:39,960
Speaker 3: library in New York, it was all about a new.

9
00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:41,200
Speaker 1: Book, that's right.

10
00:00:41,240 --> 00:00:43,920
Speaker 2: It was a pretty fitting location. So you were going

11
00:00:43,920 --> 00:00:47,200
Speaker 2: to listen to our live episode that we recorded with

12
00:00:47,400 --> 00:00:51,120
Speaker 2: Chris Hughes. He's actually one of the original founders of Facebook,

13
00:00:51,120 --> 00:00:54,680
Speaker 2: but he left fairly early into the company's journey. He's

14
00:00:54,720 --> 00:00:58,200
Speaker 2: currently getting his PhD at Penn in economics and he's

15
00:00:58,240 --> 00:01:00,680
Speaker 2: the author of the book Market Crafters, One hundred Year

16
00:01:00,720 --> 00:01:02,520
Speaker 2: Struggle to Shape the American Economy.

17
00:01:02,640 --> 00:01:03,760
Speaker 3: Yep, take a listen.

18
00:01:04,319 --> 00:01:07,920
Speaker 2: Thrilled to be a chatting why market craft? You know,

19
00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:10,600
Speaker 2: we talk people use the term industrial policy a lot

20
00:01:10,640 --> 00:01:13,240
Speaker 2: these days. It's got very hot over the last several years.

21
00:01:13,560 --> 00:01:16,120
Speaker 2: What is market craft mean? Why title it that?

22
00:01:16,840 --> 00:01:17,000
Speaker 4: Well?

23
00:01:17,040 --> 00:01:20,560
Speaker 5: Hello, Hello, I'm happy to be here. And before I

24
00:01:20,600 --> 00:01:23,120
Speaker 5: answer exactly what market craft is? And we spend the

25
00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:24,920
Speaker 5: next hour talking about it. I just have to say

26
00:01:25,400 --> 00:01:28,160
Speaker 5: that it is such a huge honor to be both

27
00:01:28,360 --> 00:01:31,119
Speaker 5: here at the library and institution that I care immensely about,

28
00:01:31,240 --> 00:01:36,360
Speaker 5: and to be a guest on this live tapings.

29
00:01:35,280 --> 00:01:38,920
Speaker 4: Than is my number one favorite podcast, and so we.

30
00:01:38,920 --> 00:01:40,520
Speaker 2: Love when they say that on the recording. But that

31
00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:43,759
Speaker 2: is a good reminder. It is a live taping, so you.

32
00:01:43,760 --> 00:01:45,760
Speaker 1: Know, silence cell phones, you can you can share it.

33
00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:46,520
Speaker 1: Clap a little bit.

34
00:01:46,920 --> 00:01:51,200
Speaker 5: So market craft, what is it? The basic idea is

35
00:01:51,520 --> 00:01:57,160
Speaker 5: that policy makers are often harnessing and shaping, harnessing private

36
00:01:57,240 --> 00:02:02,640
Speaker 5: markets and pointing them towards public goals like making Americans richer, safer,

37
00:02:02,720 --> 00:02:06,800
Speaker 5: and more economically secure, and that there's actually a very

38
00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:09,480
Speaker 5: long history of doing that in the United States. It's

39
00:02:09,520 --> 00:02:14,080
Speaker 5: done by Republicans, it's done by Democrats. It's done to

40
00:02:14,360 --> 00:02:19,720
Speaker 5: ensure energy stability, financial stability, or make semiconductors here at home.

41
00:02:20,240 --> 00:02:24,080
Speaker 5: There are a ton of successes in the past, plenty

42
00:02:24,120 --> 00:02:26,160
Speaker 5: of failures, and the whole point of writing the book

43
00:02:26,280 --> 00:02:30,880
Speaker 5: was to try to tease out what are the lessons

44
00:02:30,919 --> 00:02:34,040
Speaker 5: for our contemporary policy environment today, because we're going to

45
00:02:35,160 --> 00:02:37,079
Speaker 5: have to rebuild on the other side of the chaos

46
00:02:37,160 --> 00:02:39,160
Speaker 5: that exists in the world right now.

47
00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:42,440
Speaker 3: So just on this point, I mean, a large part

48
00:02:42,440 --> 00:02:45,119
Speaker 3: of the book is pointing out that the US does

49
00:02:45,160 --> 00:02:48,880
Speaker 3: in fact have this history of market craft as you

50
00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:51,360
Speaker 3: put it, and certainly other countries this is kind of

51
00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:55,079
Speaker 3: the norm. You know, Norway has sovereign wealth funds, parts

52
00:02:55,080 --> 00:02:57,440
Speaker 3: of the Middle East have sovereign wealth funds. Even in

53
00:02:57,560 --> 00:03:01,600
Speaker 3: economies that aren't necessarily centrally controlled, there's a bigger role

54
00:03:01,720 --> 00:03:04,880
Speaker 3: for governments to play in the economy. And yet in

55
00:03:04,919 --> 00:03:07,919
Speaker 3: the US up until fairly recently, I think it's fair

56
00:03:07,919 --> 00:03:10,840
Speaker 3: to say industrial policy was almost like a dirty word,

57
00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:14,440
Speaker 3: and there's this knee jerk reaction to this idea.

58
00:03:14,520 --> 00:03:15,120
Speaker 4: Why is that?

59
00:03:15,360 --> 00:03:19,560
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean I think, listen, we all exist with

60
00:03:19,639 --> 00:03:24,720
Speaker 5: this idea in our heads that markets exist and are

61
00:03:24,880 --> 00:03:27,679
Speaker 5: almost forces of nature, and then on the other side

62
00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:30,680
Speaker 5: of the balance sheet there's government. I mean, I'm the

63
00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:33,400
Speaker 5: first to say that the language that I've used for

64
00:03:33,520 --> 00:03:39,640
Speaker 5: years has been around verbs like to intervene, as if

65
00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:42,160
Speaker 5: markets come first, and then government is just like the

66
00:03:42,200 --> 00:03:45,720
Speaker 5: emergency room that happens when things go awry and you've

67
00:03:45,720 --> 00:03:48,240
Speaker 5: got to bail out a bank. And the whole point

68
00:03:48,280 --> 00:03:51,720
Speaker 5: of My book is to say, actually, something bigger is happening.

69
00:03:52,000 --> 00:04:00,960
Speaker 5: Like if you look at the American economy between healthcare, pharmaceuticals, aviation, semiconductor,

70
00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:04,600
Speaker 5: and high tech clean energy, and add up the size

71
00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:07,640
Speaker 5: of these industries, you are well over half of American

72
00:04:07,680 --> 00:04:10,600
Speaker 5: GDP in industries where the state not just has a

73
00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:15,000
Speaker 5: heavy hand, but is actually crafting it from the beginning.

74
00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:17,800
Speaker 5: And so it is about industrial policy. There's a lot

75
00:04:17,839 --> 00:04:21,120
Speaker 5: in there about industrial policy, but it's actually about something bigger.

76
00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:24,239
Speaker 5: Market craft is something that encompasses what the FED does

77
00:04:24,400 --> 00:04:28,920
Speaker 5: in financial markets, what the Strategic Petroleum Reserve does in

78
00:04:29,160 --> 00:04:31,720
Speaker 5: energy markets. There's a whole set of strategies that I

79
00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:34,040
Speaker 5: think we have to be wrestling with.

80
00:04:34,160 --> 00:04:35,760
Speaker 2: All Right, I had a question that I was going

81
00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:38,880
Speaker 2: to save to near the end after we had gotten

82
00:04:38,880 --> 00:04:40,080
Speaker 2: more relaxed, et cetera.

83
00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:43,200
Speaker 1: But I've decided just do it. I've just decided that

84
00:04:43,240 --> 00:04:43,640
Speaker 1: I'm just.

85
00:04:43,560 --> 00:04:46,160
Speaker 2: Going to jump in with this question, which is you're

86
00:04:46,240 --> 00:04:48,039
Speaker 2: one of the co founders of Facebook.

87
00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:49,920
Speaker 4: Many people in.

88
00:04:49,839 --> 00:04:54,720
Speaker 2: Silicon Valley and tech have enjoyed extraordinary fortunes under a

89
00:04:54,760 --> 00:04:59,880
Speaker 2: sort of existing market economic regime, and in recent years

90
00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:03,800
Speaker 2: we've seen a number of them become seemingly very hostile

91
00:05:04,320 --> 00:05:08,479
Speaker 2: towards the public sector, the sort of emergent anti state politics,

92
00:05:08,640 --> 00:05:10,560
Speaker 2: and people have different theories. So people are like, oh,

93
00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:12,320
Speaker 2: they got their feelings hurt from the New York Times

94
00:05:12,480 --> 00:05:14,719
Speaker 2: or something like that. What is your theory for the

95
00:05:14,720 --> 00:05:15,440
Speaker 2: emergence of this?

96
00:05:16,640 --> 00:05:18,880
Speaker 5: Well, I mean it's hard not to have that image

97
00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:22,880
Speaker 5: of Bezos and Zuckerberg and the whole crew behind Trump

98
00:05:23,040 --> 00:05:26,560
Speaker 5: at the inauguration and just see that and say, what

99
00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:30,760
Speaker 5: are those guys hoping for? You know, certainly it's to

100
00:05:30,880 --> 00:05:34,880
Speaker 5: make more money somewhat, but I think it's about something bigger.

101
00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:37,920
Speaker 5: I think they want to have more power, they want

102
00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:39,839
Speaker 5: to have more respect, and they feel like in the

103
00:05:39,839 --> 00:05:43,200
Speaker 5: Biden years there was too much focus on things like

104
00:05:43,880 --> 00:05:47,200
Speaker 5: competition and fair markets. But if you fast forward, I

105
00:05:47,240 --> 00:05:49,360
Speaker 5: mean it's not even been one hundred days. You know,

106
00:05:49,560 --> 00:05:53,479
Speaker 5: the trial against Facebook is ongoing. Mark Zuckerberg was on

107
00:05:53,520 --> 00:05:55,760
Speaker 5: the stand for much of last week. If you're not

108
00:05:55,800 --> 00:05:59,520
Speaker 5: following it closely, the FTC filed suit against Uber two

109
00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:04,240
Speaker 5: days ago, and there's and Google just last week lost

110
00:06:04,320 --> 00:06:08,160
Speaker 5: its second antitrust case with a federal prosecuted by the

111
00:06:08,240 --> 00:06:13,279
Speaker 5: Justice Department, making clear that it's a monopoly. So we're

112
00:06:13,760 --> 00:06:15,599
Speaker 5: only a few months in and you squint and you

113
00:06:15,640 --> 00:06:18,480
Speaker 5: look at you're like, what are these guys getting out

114
00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:21,479
Speaker 5: of this? It doesn't seem like very much since you

115
00:06:21,520 --> 00:06:22,440
Speaker 5: brought up the FTC.

116
00:06:22,720 --> 00:06:24,320
Speaker 3: I mean, this is something I don't think a lot

117
00:06:24,360 --> 00:06:28,640
Speaker 3: of people were expecting this to happen. But like, anti

118
00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:32,600
Speaker 3: monopoly seems to be a through line between Biden and

119
00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:38,440
Speaker 3: Trump to some extent, right and certainly pursuing some actions

120
00:06:38,520 --> 00:06:41,440
Speaker 3: against big tech. Why do you think that is? Like

121
00:06:41,480 --> 00:06:43,800
Speaker 3: why is this an area of consensus? And then just

122
00:06:43,839 --> 00:06:46,560
Speaker 3: going back to Joe's question, you think any of those

123
00:06:46,600 --> 00:06:49,960
Speaker 3: guys who were standing at Trump's inauguration are they happy

124
00:06:50,080 --> 00:06:51,160
Speaker 3: with the current situation?

125
00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:52,000
Speaker 4: I don't think so.

126
00:06:52,480 --> 00:06:56,160
Speaker 5: No, But you know, anti monopoly is a bit how

127
00:06:56,200 --> 00:06:58,479
Speaker 5: I got into market craft in the first place. So

128
00:06:59,320 --> 00:07:02,479
Speaker 5: about six years ago I wrote an article in New

129
00:07:02,560 --> 00:07:05,799
Speaker 5: York Times saying that I thought Facebook should undergo structural

130
00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:09,560
Speaker 5: separation or breakup, that its corporate power had become too

131
00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:12,800
Speaker 5: concentrated and it become a monopoly. And that started me

132
00:07:12,840 --> 00:07:16,160
Speaker 5: on a journey of really wrestling with the history of

133
00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:20,360
Speaker 5: anti monopoly in the United States. And you can't think

134
00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:26,240
Speaker 5: about that set of topics without seeing public actors saying, hey,

135
00:07:26,240 --> 00:07:29,160
Speaker 5: we want markets to work a certain way. We don't

136
00:07:29,200 --> 00:07:31,480
Speaker 5: think that they should be concentrated with a lot of power.

137
00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:33,920
Speaker 5: We think they should be competitive. We think it should

138
00:07:33,920 --> 00:07:36,400
Speaker 5: be easy for new entrants to come in and innovate.

139
00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:40,840
Speaker 5: We think markets should keep prices low, wages up, and

140
00:07:41,520 --> 00:07:43,600
Speaker 5: innovation going. And so we are going to use the

141
00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:47,600
Speaker 5: tools of public policy to craft those markets to ensure

142
00:07:48,120 --> 00:07:50,680
Speaker 5: that's the case. Whether it's the free market going to

143
00:07:50,720 --> 00:07:52,520
Speaker 5: lead to it or not, it really doesn't matter, because

144
00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:55,200
Speaker 5: we have this goal as a common good. And so

145
00:07:55,320 --> 00:07:57,720
Speaker 5: once you sort of once I began to see that

146
00:07:57,840 --> 00:08:02,880
Speaker 5: in the anti monopoly world, you quickly saw it at

147
00:08:03,080 --> 00:08:07,080
Speaker 5: the FED as an institution that you know, most free

148
00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:11,960
Speaker 5: market Bible thumping folks would say that they appreciate, but

149
00:08:12,160 --> 00:08:15,440
Speaker 5: you know, the FED sets the price of short term

150
00:08:15,480 --> 00:08:21,920
Speaker 5: credit and is actively in markets buffering that price through

151
00:08:21,960 --> 00:08:24,640
Speaker 5: open market operations. And then if things really go awry,

152
00:08:24,880 --> 00:08:27,040
Speaker 5: you bet it's going to be there to step in

153
00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:32,120
Speaker 5: to stabilize, so that market is crafted and managed every

154
00:08:32,360 --> 00:08:35,880
Speaker 5: single day for stability. And so I began to see

155
00:08:35,880 --> 00:08:39,200
Speaker 5: all these kind of cross pollinations and similar trends and

156
00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:41,600
Speaker 5: that you know, a couple of years later, here's the

157
00:08:41,600 --> 00:08:42,040
Speaker 5: fruit of that.

158
00:08:59,440 --> 00:09:01,280
Speaker 1: I have one. I want to go back to resentful

159
00:09:01,400 --> 00:09:04,240
Speaker 1: billionaires again and do it, and I have a different

160
00:09:04,320 --> 00:09:06,440
Speaker 1: You're not the only worry. But tell me if it's

161
00:09:06,480 --> 00:09:07,160
Speaker 1: total nonsense.

162
00:09:07,200 --> 00:09:09,360
Speaker 2: You know, I tweet all day because I want people

163
00:09:09,360 --> 00:09:12,160
Speaker 2: to hear all my thoughts. And you wrote a book,

164
00:09:12,320 --> 00:09:16,080
Speaker 2: you left Facebook, and you're an economist and you're published

165
00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:19,160
Speaker 2: a book that's influential and intellectual. How much is it

166
00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:22,959
Speaker 2: about resent that they're extremely wealthy and successful, but they

167
00:09:23,040 --> 00:09:25,720
Speaker 2: also want to be regarded as smart.

168
00:09:27,360 --> 00:09:30,600
Speaker 3: This, in my opinion, is why Twitter exists, Like this.

169
00:09:30,679 --> 00:09:33,840
Speaker 2: Is my impression, so that there is that they also

170
00:09:33,880 --> 00:09:35,120
Speaker 2: want to be market crafters.

171
00:09:35,280 --> 00:09:35,920
Speaker 4: They don't just.

172
00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:40,160
Speaker 2: Want to be market competitors. They want to My sense

173
00:09:40,160 --> 00:09:42,440
Speaker 2: is that we all want to be market crafters. And

174
00:09:42,480 --> 00:09:45,760
Speaker 2: how much is it about they felt like, yeah, incredibly successful,

175
00:09:45,880 --> 00:09:47,200
Speaker 2: but they didn't get to help craft it.

176
00:09:47,440 --> 00:09:50,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that's I think that's directly right.

177
00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:53,880
Speaker 5: I should say I try very hard to avoid social

178
00:09:53,920 --> 00:09:56,560
Speaker 5: media so that you're not on the blue app. I'm

179
00:09:56,559 --> 00:09:59,720
Speaker 5: not on Instagram, I lark on Twitter. I recently opened

180
00:09:59,720 --> 00:10:01,920
Speaker 5: a blue Sky account. It doesn't have a lot of followers,

181
00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:04,560
Speaker 5: be great if I had a couple more, But so

182
00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:07,640
Speaker 5: I'm not actively using social media, so it's harder for

183
00:10:07,679 --> 00:10:09,000
Speaker 5: me to weigh in on that.

184
00:10:09,080 --> 00:10:09,880
Speaker 4: But I am.

185
00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:13,960
Speaker 5: I do think that there is this lurking desire to

186
00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:17,080
Speaker 5: partner with government in some cases in craft markets. And

187
00:10:17,120 --> 00:10:19,240
Speaker 5: so there's a very crisp example. It's not from one

188
00:10:19,280 --> 00:10:22,439
Speaker 5: of the current billionaires. But there's this guy, Robert Nois,

189
00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:25,040
Speaker 5: which some of you may have heard of. He was

190
00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:28,440
Speaker 5: one of the co founders of Intel. Grew up as

191
00:10:28,520 --> 00:10:32,960
Speaker 5: a son of a Congregationalist minister and a family in Iowa,

192
00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:38,520
Speaker 5: ends up going to MIT and then invents the integrated circuit,

193
00:10:38,920 --> 00:10:44,360
Speaker 5: which is a fundamental part of the semiconductor makes gobs

194
00:10:44,440 --> 00:10:49,240
Speaker 5: of money, and after years of that, guess what happens

195
00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:53,800
Speaker 5: in the mid nineteen eighties Japan. Japan as an industry

196
00:10:54,040 --> 00:10:59,760
Speaker 5: starts really out competing the American semi conductor manufacturing market.

197
00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:03,760
Speaker 5: They are moving faster, they have their own industrial policy

198
00:11:03,760 --> 00:11:05,520
Speaker 5: that's pushing it. And so all of a sudden, Noise,

199
00:11:05,559 --> 00:11:08,719
Speaker 5: who had for his entire life been a libertarian who

200
00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:11,160
Speaker 5: didn't want anything to do with government, thought it was

201
00:11:11,440 --> 00:11:13,680
Speaker 5: not a great idea, would have liked to downsize it

202
00:11:13,720 --> 00:11:17,880
Speaker 5: as we're seeing other billionaires be interested in today, all

203
00:11:17,960 --> 00:11:20,480
Speaker 5: of a sudden he shows up in Washington and he says,

204
00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:25,720
Speaker 5: wait a second, we need an industrial policy for semiconductors

205
00:11:25,760 --> 00:11:29,920
Speaker 5: and for chips. And the Defense Department agrees because they're

206
00:11:29,920 --> 00:11:33,840
Speaker 5: concerned for national security reasons and noise, and the government

207
00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:38,559
Speaker 5: effectively partner because their interests at that moment are overlapping.

208
00:11:38,920 --> 00:11:41,880
Speaker 5: We get something called semitech which is created, which is

209
00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:47,280
Speaker 5: about a billion dollars. It's invested to enable the semiconductor

210
00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:51,840
Speaker 5: companies to begin coordinating, making their vertical their supply chains

211
00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:56,160
Speaker 5: vertically more integrated and more efficient, and a few years later,

212
00:11:56,559 --> 00:12:02,560
Speaker 5: America recaptures its market share and globally of semiconductors, we're

213
00:12:02,640 --> 00:12:05,840
Speaker 5: back on the top. So, you know, I think that

214
00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:10,000
Speaker 5: the lesson from that is complicated because on the one hand,

215
00:12:10,280 --> 00:12:14,360
Speaker 5: you do see a private sector actor with a lot

216
00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:18,240
Speaker 5: to gain from private private wealth maximization, but working with

217
00:12:18,400 --> 00:12:21,240
Speaker 5: the public sector, where the public sector also has a

218
00:12:21,280 --> 00:12:25,000
Speaker 5: lot to gain from semiconductors being made in the United States,

219
00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:28,199
Speaker 5: and in that case it worked for both. It doesn't

220
00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:31,360
Speaker 5: always work out like that. But I think that's clear

221
00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:34,080
Speaker 5: historical evidence of the fact that there is this lurking

222
00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:37,040
Speaker 5: desire for market craft on the part of a lot

223
00:12:37,080 --> 00:12:37,760
Speaker 5: of these folks.

224
00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:40,760
Speaker 3: Now I'm torn whether I should ask another question about

225
00:12:40,760 --> 00:12:43,880
Speaker 3: angry billionaires who tweet a lot, or about the books.

226
00:12:43,920 --> 00:12:46,600
Speaker 3: So I'm going to try to thread the needle elon

227
00:12:46,720 --> 00:12:51,920
Speaker 3: musk at Doje. It's a very active organization. Some would say,

228
00:12:51,960 --> 00:12:55,520
Speaker 3: would that count as market craft under your framework?

229
00:12:55,640 --> 00:12:58,679
Speaker 4: No? No, no, But I mean seriously, it's.

230
00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:04,400
Speaker 5: That's just tearing apart the federal government and the administrative Yeah, because.

231
00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:07,200
Speaker 3: Your book is actually emphasizes the importance of institutions.

232
00:13:07,240 --> 00:13:09,920
Speaker 5: It's the exact inverse. So my book makes the case

233
00:13:09,960 --> 00:13:14,199
Speaker 5: that when market craft is successful, you have administrative agencies

234
00:13:14,640 --> 00:13:18,120
Speaker 5: like the Chips Office, like the FED, like this SPR

235
00:13:18,679 --> 00:13:22,600
Speaker 5: that have a clear mission on chore semiconductors, keep financial

236
00:13:22,600 --> 00:13:23,760
Speaker 5: markets stable, et cetera.

237
00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:27,040
Speaker 4: And then they have the discretion to pursue.

238
00:13:26,559 --> 00:13:30,760
Speaker 5: That mission and the ability to get it done. And

239
00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:35,120
Speaker 5: that it is critical to understand that institutions in America

240
00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:40,559
Speaker 5: need that power in order to make markets work more effectively.

241
00:13:40,600 --> 00:13:43,760
Speaker 5: That doesn't mean that they're always perfect, but we get

242
00:13:43,960 --> 00:13:48,280
Speaker 5: much worse outcomes when we create these balkanized sort of

243
00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:51,120
Speaker 5: hybrid setups, and that's what you see in something like

244
00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:55,560
Speaker 5: healthcare markets today. So the importance of institutions is at

245
00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:59,560
Speaker 5: the center of this book, and my belief in Musk

246
00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:01,880
Speaker 5: and Crewer just trying to demolish all of them.

247
00:14:02,160 --> 00:14:06,160
Speaker 3: So on the institution's point, I mean, I think part

248
00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:10,319
Speaker 3: of the institution's problem in US politics is that you

249
00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:12,480
Speaker 3: get a lot of people who think that these are

250
00:14:12,600 --> 00:14:15,680
Speaker 3: unelected officials with a lot of power, you know, those

251
00:14:15,679 --> 00:14:18,920
Speaker 3: sort of like Ivory Tower bureaucrats who are deciding everything.

252
00:14:19,800 --> 00:14:22,520
Speaker 3: How do you, I guess, how do you overcome that

253
00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:28,000
Speaker 3: sort of instinctual I guess negativity towards building more institutions

254
00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:29,000
Speaker 3: in the US government?

255
00:14:29,640 --> 00:14:32,760
Speaker 5: I think you show people where it works, and you

256
00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:37,440
Speaker 5: have to be clear about where institutions actually deliver for people.

257
00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:39,960
Speaker 5: So I'll give you an example that's a little bit

258
00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:43,040
Speaker 5: further back in history. So the book starts with the

259
00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:46,440
Speaker 5: story of the National Investment Bank that we create in

260
00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:50,960
Speaker 5: the depression. In nineteen thirty two, Herbert Hoover, actually a Republican,

261
00:14:51,440 --> 00:14:56,360
Speaker 5: creates an institution called the Reconstruction Finance Corporation, with a

262
00:14:56,400 --> 00:15:01,720
Speaker 5: clear mandate, first to reinforce capitalism that was disintegrating at

263
00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:05,040
Speaker 5: the time, and then a few years later the mandate

264
00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:09,600
Speaker 5: expands to actually spur development. At the head of this

265
00:15:09,640 --> 00:15:12,640
Speaker 5: thing is this larger than life figure named Jesse Jones.

266
00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:15,760
Speaker 5: So this guy was born in Tennessee, but he moves

267
00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:20,040
Speaker 5: to Texas at a young age. He invests in all

268
00:15:20,160 --> 00:15:22,400
Speaker 5: kinds of local businesses, and by the time he's thirty,

269
00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:24,960
Speaker 5: he's a millionaire. And a few years later he's got

270
00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:27,120
Speaker 5: so much money that he's building buildings in New York

271
00:15:27,120 --> 00:15:31,280
Speaker 5: City and all across the Eastern seaboard. Then nineteen twenty

272
00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:36,200
Speaker 5: nine happens, and he has less to do, so he does.

273
00:15:36,280 --> 00:15:39,480
Speaker 5: He is a Democratic Party activist. He's been a fundraiser

274
00:15:39,520 --> 00:15:42,200
Speaker 5: for a long time, even shares an office with Roosevelt

275
00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:44,960
Speaker 5: in nineteen twenty four. He convinces the Democrats to have

276
00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:48,240
Speaker 5: their convention in Houston in nineteen twenty eight, where oh

277
00:15:48,280 --> 00:15:51,240
Speaker 5: so conveniently, balloons fall from the ceiling that say Jesse

278
00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:52,240
Speaker 5: Jones for President.

279
00:15:53,240 --> 00:15:54,360
Speaker 4: He's like a larger than.

280
00:15:54,280 --> 00:15:56,280
Speaker 5: Life figure, but he's at the head of this bank,

281
00:15:56,360 --> 00:16:00,880
Speaker 5: this institution, the National Investment Bank, And when he comes

282
00:16:00,880 --> 00:16:03,840
Speaker 5: into power. At the beginning, he says, you know, our

283
00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:06,520
Speaker 5: first mission is going to be to reinforce all of

284
00:16:06,560 --> 00:16:09,320
Speaker 5: the private commercial banks, recapitalize them, make sure that they're

285
00:16:09,360 --> 00:16:12,640
Speaker 5: ready for deposit insurance. But then in the second phase,

286
00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:15,600
Speaker 5: on the advice of John Maynard Kaines and some other

287
00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:19,160
Speaker 5: economists Jones and consultation with Roosevelt, says, we got to

288
00:16:19,680 --> 00:16:24,600
Speaker 5: really deploy public capital into the American economy, particularly in

289
00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:28,440
Speaker 5: industries that are going to encourage a lot of employment

290
00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:33,680
Speaker 5: and make things cheaper for consumers. So they prioritize housing,

291
00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:37,000
Speaker 5: and they build a kind of institution that's named Fanny

292
00:16:37,040 --> 00:16:41,040
Speaker 5: May which endures obviously today, and they invent the thirty

293
00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:44,560
Speaker 5: year mortgage, which at the time mortgages had been ten years.

294
00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:47,400
Speaker 5: By expanding it to thirty years, the cost of housing

295
00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:50,280
Speaker 5: comes down significantly, and all of a sudden you see

296
00:16:50,280 --> 00:16:52,400
Speaker 5: a boom in housing. And then there's a third phase

297
00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:55,000
Speaker 5: in the war years where they bird the aviation industry

298
00:16:55,040 --> 00:16:57,520
Speaker 5: and synthetic rubber and all kinds of other things. And

299
00:16:57,600 --> 00:17:00,280
Speaker 5: so my point is is you see a man who

300
00:17:00,320 --> 00:17:06,200
Speaker 5: comes in skeptical of, you know, of the far left.

301
00:17:06,240 --> 00:17:09,560
Speaker 5: In the New Deal period, certainly wouldn't have identified with

302
00:17:09,600 --> 00:17:13,360
Speaker 5: those folks, But who ends up believing in and building

303
00:17:13,680 --> 00:17:18,840
Speaker 5: an institution of American capitalism that crafts markets toward a

304
00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:22,160
Speaker 5: common good. And so that example is really inspiring. It's

305
00:17:22,160 --> 00:17:24,119
Speaker 5: further back in history, but we've got all kinds of

306
00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:25,280
Speaker 5: things that are closer.

307
00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:30,040
Speaker 2: One of the criticisms of a lot of legacy institutions,

308
00:17:30,320 --> 00:17:33,920
Speaker 2: whether it's universities or various parts of the public sector,

309
00:17:34,359 --> 00:17:37,640
Speaker 2: et cetera, that comes from the right is that they've

310
00:17:37,680 --> 00:17:39,920
Speaker 2: lost their own sense of mission. We have to tear

311
00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:42,439
Speaker 2: them down because they have lost their own sense of mission.

312
00:17:42,680 --> 00:17:47,199
Speaker 2: They're consumed with niche obsessions, consumed with identity things like

313
00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:50,760
Speaker 2: that that are unrelated to their mission of whatever it

314
00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:53,840
Speaker 2: is their building, whether it's homes, whether it's semiconductors, whether

315
00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:56,800
Speaker 2: it's education. When you look at the history, do you

316
00:17:56,880 --> 00:18:02,520
Speaker 2: see any evidence of sort of mission deviation or institutions

317
00:18:02,520 --> 00:18:03,960
Speaker 2: that have lost their north star.

318
00:18:05,240 --> 00:18:07,480
Speaker 5: It's not a pattern that I saw in the research

319
00:18:07,760 --> 00:18:11,200
Speaker 5: of the book. And if that happens, that's what Congress

320
00:18:11,280 --> 00:18:15,199
Speaker 5: is for. I mean, the Congress holds institutions accountable and

321
00:18:15,320 --> 00:18:18,720
Speaker 5: monitors their activity. I mean, take the Chips Act. It

322
00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:23,040
Speaker 5: was passed in twenty twenty two. But chips was actually

323
00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:26,120
Speaker 5: an idea from the first Trump.

324
00:18:25,800 --> 00:18:27,120
Speaker 4: Era that.

325
00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:33,280
Speaker 5: Yeah, well yeah, and the Undersecretary of State for Economic

326
00:18:33,560 --> 00:18:36,560
Speaker 5: Affairs and a whole set of folks were very.

327
00:18:36,359 --> 00:18:37,440
Speaker 4: Invested in it.

328
00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:39,680
Speaker 5: It gains steam and is passed in twenty twenty two,

329
00:18:40,440 --> 00:18:42,560
Speaker 5: and then you know, quite quickly.

330
00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:45,520
Speaker 4: Money begins to move.

331
00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:49,520
Speaker 5: Congress actually a year later, says, you know what, We're

332
00:18:49,520 --> 00:18:54,919
Speaker 5: going to exempt semiconductor construction from NIPA requirements, making the

333
00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:57,399
Speaker 5: environmental requirements that in some cases could have made it

334
00:18:57,480 --> 00:19:00,680
Speaker 5: harder to build. So Congress stepped in to make sure

335
00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:04,359
Speaker 5: that something that they did actually happened more effectively. Or

336
00:19:04,400 --> 00:19:08,400
Speaker 5: similarly with the FED, I mean, Congress is constantly tweaking

337
00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:10,639
Speaker 5: the FED. Who gets to decide who's going to be

338
00:19:10,680 --> 00:19:15,359
Speaker 5: a reserve beank president, even in some cases the methodologies

339
00:19:15,359 --> 00:19:17,000
Speaker 5: for monetary policy implementation.

340
00:19:17,119 --> 00:19:19,960
Speaker 4: So I think accountability is very important.

341
00:19:20,359 --> 00:19:23,639
Speaker 5: But accountability rests in the legislative branch, not with an

342
00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:26,639
Speaker 5: impulsive billionaire just running through town with a hammer.

343
00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:29,800
Speaker 3: Speaking of the FED, I think you mentioned that you

344
00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:33,760
Speaker 3: initially set out to write a book just right like

345
00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:36,280
Speaker 3: what was the Cause of the Switch? And then I

346
00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:38,760
Speaker 3: guess how did that inform your research process?

347
00:19:39,160 --> 00:19:40,639
Speaker 4: So I have a special place in my heart for

348
00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:41,399
Speaker 4: fed history.

349
00:19:41,800 --> 00:19:44,639
Speaker 5: I've been working on a dissertation at Wharton for a

350
00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:48,320
Speaker 5: few years which is more properly narrow and focused on

351
00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:51,119
Speaker 5: that topic, and I thought that's what this book was

352
00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:56,440
Speaker 5: going to be initially. But then when the conversation around

353
00:19:56,520 --> 00:20:01,879
Speaker 5: industrial policy exploded, and the the Climate Bill happened, the

354
00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:05,639
Speaker 5: Chips Bill happened, the Infrastructure Bill happened, a new conversation

355
00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:09,720
Speaker 5: around tariffs in the Biden administration was happening, it felt

356
00:20:09,760 --> 00:20:12,480
Speaker 5: like there was a bigger story to tell and the

357
00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:15,720
Speaker 5: challenge that the thing I wanted to do was to

358
00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:18,800
Speaker 5: explain how did we get from the era that I

359
00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:22,919
Speaker 5: grew up in, you know, the Clinton and George W.

360
00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:27,879
Speaker 5: Bush era where most people thought markets self regulate and

361
00:20:28,119 --> 00:20:32,560
Speaker 5: work on their own, to a moment where both parties,

362
00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:36,639
Speaker 5: both Democrats and Republicans, put the state at the center

363
00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:41,159
Speaker 5: of the economic story. And I wanted to track that

364
00:20:41,359 --> 00:20:43,800
Speaker 5: history in the past fifteen years and see it through

365
00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:46,840
Speaker 5: the Great Recession and then the challenge of climate and

366
00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:49,960
Speaker 5: then the rise of China and the pandemic, and understand

367
00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:54,879
Speaker 5: how you got these bizarre agreements, like you know, almost

368
00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:58,879
Speaker 5: a dozen Republicans voting for Lena Khan in the Senate

369
00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:01,439
Speaker 5: to run the FTC. How did that happen? Where did

370
00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:04,760
Speaker 5: that come from? And how enduring might that be? And

371
00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:07,720
Speaker 5: that set of questions then took me way back into

372
00:21:07,760 --> 00:21:10,680
Speaker 5: history and then back into the present day, and well,

373
00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:11,280
Speaker 5: how did we.

374
00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:13,840
Speaker 1: Get twelve Senate Republicans to vote for Lena Khan.

375
00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:18,679
Speaker 5: I think the confluence of those four events made Americans,

376
00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:23,000
Speaker 5: let alone policy makers, realized that markets don't just take

377
00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:27,080
Speaker 5: care of themselves, and that that whole idea, that whole story,

378
00:21:27,680 --> 00:21:32,920
Speaker 5: wasn't working. That capitalism needs to be cultivated, and that

379
00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:35,679
Speaker 5: markets need to be cared for. In the introduction of

380
00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:39,280
Speaker 5: the book, I talk about this metaphor of a vegetable garden,

381
00:21:39,320 --> 00:21:41,399
Speaker 5: which might seem a little hokey, but at least for me,

382
00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:44,720
Speaker 5: it's personal because when I grew up, I grew up

383
00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:48,200
Speaker 5: in North Carolina in a small town, and my dad

384
00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:51,040
Speaker 5: tilled up a third of the backyard to make a

385
00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:55,239
Speaker 5: vegetable garden and constantly forced me in the summers to

386
00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:59,560
Speaker 5: go like weed and pick green beans and steak tomatoes

387
00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:02,360
Speaker 5: and do all these things that I did not want

388
00:22:02,359 --> 00:22:05,760
Speaker 5: to do. Yeah, a lot of people enjoy this, it

389
00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:06,680
Speaker 5: turns out me.

390
00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:08,400
Speaker 4: So.

391
00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:11,280
Speaker 5: But nonetheless, I spent an inordinate amount of time in

392
00:22:11,280 --> 00:22:14,520
Speaker 5: that garden. And so when I started to think about, like, well,

393
00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:17,800
Speaker 5: what are markets like if they're not these self regulating systems,

394
00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:22,080
Speaker 5: the best metaphor that I that I landed upon is

395
00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:26,439
Speaker 5: a garden because it recognizes there are organic forces that

396
00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:29,760
Speaker 5: can sometimes be unruly, that won't necessarily cooperate and just

397
00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:33,520
Speaker 5: do exactly what you want to do. But it also

398
00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:39,720
Speaker 5: recognizes that you need care and cultivation to steer those plants.

399
00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:41,399
Speaker 5: You need to plant some things in the sun and

400
00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:43,800
Speaker 5: some things in the shades. You need fertilizer for some things,

401
00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:45,919
Speaker 5: you need to get the weeds out for others. You

402
00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:47,959
Speaker 5: need to shape these markets. You need to point them

403
00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:51,280
Speaker 5: in a direction to ensure they're actually working, that they're

404
00:22:51,359 --> 00:22:54,959
Speaker 5: producing a harvest that you want to eat and then

405
00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:57,439
Speaker 5: and that is going to be nutritious. And so I

406
00:22:57,520 --> 00:23:00,320
Speaker 5: kept coming back to that metaphor, and I think it

407
00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:01,520
Speaker 5: is the right.

408
00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:03,760
Speaker 4: One to think about how markets actually work.

409
00:23:04,359 --> 00:23:07,560
Speaker 3: I want to say one thing about gardening, which is

410
00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:10,000
Speaker 3: everyone has this image in their minds that it's like

411
00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:14,000
Speaker 3: this really peaceful like pastoral activity, and it's not. It

412
00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:18,160
Speaker 3: is like this violent struggle to stop everything from.

413
00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:19,480
Speaker 4: Killing each other. Basically.

414
00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:25,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, So I like the metaphor, okay, speaking of bad

415
00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:30,800
Speaker 3: stuff happening. Almost every example in your book of you know,

416
00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:35,360
Speaker 3: instances of market craft actually developing stems from a crisis

417
00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:39,200
Speaker 3: of one sort or another. There's the Great Depression, There's

418
00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:43,960
Speaker 3: obviously the COVID pandemic. You know, high inflation, high oil prices,

419
00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:46,720
Speaker 3: things like that. Do you have to have a market

420
00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:50,600
Speaker 3: crisis before people can start building consensus that there is

421
00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:53,399
Speaker 3: actually a role for the government to come in and

422
00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:57,240
Speaker 3: try to achieve some policy aims through market craft.

423
00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:01,520
Speaker 5: No, but it helps, and it's always matters how you

424
00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:04,399
Speaker 5: define the crisis. You know, there are several examples of

425
00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:08,040
Speaker 5: market crafters who are very successful in the book, who

426
00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:10,920
Speaker 5: are not responding to crisis. So I have an extended

427
00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:15,639
Speaker 5: passage on Alan Greenspan, who is normally not thought of

428
00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:18,840
Speaker 5: as like a market crafting kind of guy. He's supposed

429
00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:22,439
Speaker 5: to be the deregulator in chief, and he did do

430
00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:24,840
Speaker 5: plenty of that when he was the Chair of the FED,

431
00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:29,560
Speaker 5: But he also had a vision, And so I'm going

432
00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:32,399
Speaker 5: to use him as an example to make to make

433
00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:35,320
Speaker 5: it clear that market craft is neither good nor bad

434
00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:37,800
Speaker 5: and of itself, it matters. It's a tool and it's

435
00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:40,040
Speaker 5: pointed towards a certain end, and it can be a

436
00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:41,520
Speaker 5: good one or it can be a bad one. For

437
00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:48,000
Speaker 5: green Span, it was financial innovation. He's so intensely believed

438
00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:53,359
Speaker 5: that the more efficient markets would be, the more prosperity

439
00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:56,199
Speaker 5: and stability would come out of that. I mean, the

440
00:24:56,240 --> 00:25:00,040
Speaker 5: guy is writing papers when he's a young analyst in

441
00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:04,879
Speaker 5: the fifties along these lines and eventually knits them together

442
00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:08,080
Speaker 5: in his PhD dissertation, And then when he becomes chair

443
00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:10,760
Speaker 5: of the Fed, Yeah, he does deregulate and take a

444
00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:14,080
Speaker 5: lot of rules out of the way, but he also

445
00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:19,000
Speaker 5: makes really important policy actions to encourage the development of

446
00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:22,840
Speaker 5: financially innovative tools, things that we now know of as

447
00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:28,840
Speaker 5: credit defaults, fops and special purpose vehicles and the kinds

448
00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:32,679
Speaker 5: of things that did indeed significantly increase leverage in the

449
00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:37,600
Speaker 5: financial sector, did in some cases mean markets moved faster

450
00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:42,040
Speaker 5: and more efficiently, and he believed would ultimately create that

451
00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:45,960
Speaker 5: kind of market discipline that would keep the whole system stable.

452
00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:47,160
Speaker 4: So he had a goal.

453
00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:50,119
Speaker 5: It was market it was financial innovation, and he was

454
00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:54,600
Speaker 5: using the power of his institution to deliver on it.

455
00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:57,639
Speaker 5: It's just it had disastrous consequences and he was wrong.

456
00:25:58,520 --> 00:25:59,440
Speaker 1: Let's talk more about the event.

457
00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:01,760
Speaker 2: By the way, I think it's really cool that you

458
00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:04,280
Speaker 2: went and after, you know, after the Facebook, and did

459
00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:05,680
Speaker 2: all this stuff, then you got your pH d.

460
00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:11,160
Speaker 5: Well, we're still working on it, working on your PhD.

461
00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:14,639
Speaker 2: I read Kevin Rudd, the former Prime Minister of Australia,

462
00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:16,600
Speaker 2: after he was PM, went and got his pH d

463
00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:19,960
Speaker 2: at Oxford and wrote an amazing book about hues and pain.

464
00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:22,040
Speaker 2: So maybe there's hope. Maybe Tracy and I will get

465
00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:26,680
Speaker 2: PhDs one day. But I hear different things about the

466
00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:29,600
Speaker 2: history of what people call FED independence.

467
00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:31,960
Speaker 1: And people in the old days presidents were always hectoring.

468
00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:33,919
Speaker 2: The FED chief to do this or that and this

469
00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:35,879
Speaker 2: isn't really that unusual, and other people like, oh no,

470
00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:38,440
Speaker 2: this is a cherish thing, and we've that we ever,

471
00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:40,960
Speaker 2: you know, interventioned by the White House.

472
00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:45,000
Speaker 1: In your research on the FED, how unusual or.

473
00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:48,840
Speaker 2: Usual is it for this sort of pressure that we see.

474
00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:53,480
Speaker 2: Did presidents use to tweet to lower rates whatever the

475
00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:54,560
Speaker 2: equivalent was back.

476
00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:54,760
Speaker 1: In the day.

477
00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:58,159
Speaker 5: Yeah, well, obviously it's a very timely topic given that

478
00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:00,520
Speaker 5: you know, last week Pal was about be fired. This

479
00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:07,800
Speaker 5: week apparently it was never even really considered. So there

480
00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:11,760
Speaker 5: is a very long history of presidents trying to bully

481
00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:15,360
Speaker 5: FED chairs to get what they want with monetary policy.

482
00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:19,040
Speaker 5: It is, you know, virtually since the beginning of the institution,

483
00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:23,919
Speaker 5: this has been a trend. Kennedy and Kennedy's administration does

484
00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:28,000
Speaker 5: it with Bill Martin. In nineteen sixty, Lyndon Johnson summons

485
00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:30,960
Speaker 5: the FED chair down to his ranch in Texas and

486
00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:35,480
Speaker 5: takes him on this legendary jaunt. Richard Nixon is pressuring

487
00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:40,280
Speaker 5: Arthur Burns. Reagan doesn't really like Vulcar so he replaces him.

488
00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:43,920
Speaker 5: We could go through all of the examples, and this

489
00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:49,280
Speaker 5: is different because this time the president isn't just pressuring

490
00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:53,159
Speaker 5: the FED chair to do what he wants. He is

491
00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:58,160
Speaker 5: threatening to take illegal action to fire him, which it's

492
00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:02,320
Speaker 5: very clear in the Federal Reserve is not legal. The

493
00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:05,960
Speaker 5: president can only remove the chair four cause, and similarly

494
00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:09,280
Speaker 5: with the other members of the Board of Governors and

495
00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:12,840
Speaker 5: so and it's not just a threat obviously like Trump

496
00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:15,200
Speaker 5: has done this. He has fired two of the five

497
00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:19,760
Speaker 5: FTC over at the FTC two of the five commissioners

498
00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:24,199
Speaker 5: who are Democrats, also illegal in the FTC Act, it

499
00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:26,680
Speaker 5: is illegal to fire them unless it's four casts. He's

500
00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:29,000
Speaker 5: done at the NLRB, at the credit unions, et cetera.

501
00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:33,080
Speaker 5: So I think this is a real threat. I tend

502
00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:36,520
Speaker 5: not to use the word independence because I think the

503
00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:41,800
Speaker 5: FED is actually quite sensitive to political and economic trends,

504
00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:44,959
Speaker 5: what they're hearing in a lot of different domains. It

505
00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:48,080
Speaker 5: is an insulated institution, which I think makes it stronger,

506
00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:51,560
Speaker 5: but it is not a purely independent one. And these

507
00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:55,080
Speaker 5: threats I think are really unprecedented and we should all

508
00:28:55,120 --> 00:29:12,840
Speaker 5: be frightened by them.

509
00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:15,520
Speaker 3: All right, So, speaking of things that might be different

510
00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:18,440
Speaker 3: this time, we do have a president who seems very

511
00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:22,760
Speaker 3: very determined to divorce the US in some ways from

512
00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:25,560
Speaker 3: the rest of the global economy, the global financial system.

513
00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:28,160
Speaker 3: The subtitle of your book is the one hundred Year

514
00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:31,800
Speaker 3: Struggle to Shape the American Economy. You could easily have

515
00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:34,160
Speaker 3: titled it the one hundred year Struggle for the US

516
00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:37,080
Speaker 3: to shape the global economy, right, like, the US went

517
00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:40,720
Speaker 3: on a very explicit mission to shape our current financial

518
00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:43,120
Speaker 3: system and you do have a very chunky chapter in

519
00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:46,440
Speaker 3: there about Breton Woods. Talk to us about why we

520
00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:50,719
Speaker 3: should all, I guess, familiarize ourselves with things like Breton Woods,

521
00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:53,920
Speaker 3: euro dollars, capital controls in our current climate.

522
00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:56,480
Speaker 5: Let me tell you a little bit of the story

523
00:29:56,520 --> 00:29:59,360
Speaker 5: of the breakdown of Brettonwoods and why it matters for today,

524
00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:02,480
Speaker 5: because when I wrote that chapter, I had no idea

525
00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:07,520
Speaker 5: that the dollar would actually be threatened as the global

526
00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:08,960
Speaker 5: reserve currency.

527
00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:10,720
Speaker 4: And this is real.

528
00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:14,680
Speaker 5: So BRETTONWOODZ was this agreement that came out of World

529
00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:19,560
Speaker 5: War Two that where the United States committed to sell

530
00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:23,600
Speaker 5: gold at thirty five dollars announce and it would peg

531
00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:27,560
Speaker 5: the dollar to all other foreign currencies. So this way,

532
00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:32,120
Speaker 5: the dollar effectively became the bedrock of the global financial system.

533
00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:35,640
Speaker 5: And underneath it there was gold, so it was an

534
00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:39,400
Speaker 5: effective gold standard. But the United States was making the

535
00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:44,080
Speaker 5: commitment to be able to redeem dollars for gold should

536
00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:46,479
Speaker 5: a foreign country or anyone else in the market and

537
00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:49,960
Speaker 5: want to make that exchange. Now, the whole system was

538
00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:53,280
Speaker 5: premised on the fact that as the rest of the

539
00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:57,280
Speaker 5: economy grew, the United States had to increase the amount

540
00:30:57,360 --> 00:31:02,160
Speaker 5: of dollars in circulation for time, because as economies grow,

541
00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:04,680
Speaker 5: they need more currency. If the dollar is the base currency,

542
00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:10,000
Speaker 5: is the global standard, you need more of it. One problem,

543
00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:14,680
Speaker 5: the more dollars you print, the less they're worth. And

544
00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:17,320
Speaker 5: so by its very nature, you are not going to

545
00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:21,320
Speaker 5: be able to deliver on the promise to redeem gold

546
00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:25,440
Speaker 5: at thirty five dollars announce. So it's like a vice

547
00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:29,920
Speaker 5: that tightens between nineteen forty, between the post war years

548
00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:34,680
Speaker 5: and nineteen seventy one, when it gets just so impossible

549
00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:37,960
Speaker 5: for the United States to continue this commitment, there's a run,

550
00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:41,360
Speaker 5: and I tell the story of the book where Nixon

551
00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:45,640
Speaker 5: summons every single person who runs any of the economic

552
00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:48,640
Speaker 5: institutions in the country to Camp David, and they come

553
00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:52,680
Speaker 5: up with a plan, and they end the Breton Woods system.

554
00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:57,479
Speaker 5: They in the gold commitment, and they move into a

555
00:31:57,520 --> 00:32:01,080
Speaker 5: regime of eventually it becomes a regime of float exchange rates.

556
00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:03,880
Speaker 5: Now we make it through partially because price and wage

557
00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:08,320
Speaker 5: controls hold down inflation for a period, etc. But it

558
00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:10,720
Speaker 5: is touch and go for a lot of that period.

559
00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:13,480
Speaker 5: And so then you fast forward to today, and I

560
00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:16,200
Speaker 5: think the easiest way to think about it is, instead

561
00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:20,480
Speaker 5: of gold being that thing underneath the dollar that guarantees

562
00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:25,840
Speaker 5: its value. It's the institutions of American capitalism. So the

563
00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:29,320
Speaker 5: dollar continues to be the global reserve currency today. And

564
00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:32,560
Speaker 5: the reason that is is because we have had an

565
00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:36,200
Speaker 5: independent central bank, We have had a treasury that reliably

566
00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:40,280
Speaker 5: and always pays the coupon on its debt in a

567
00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:44,480
Speaker 5: way that investors can believe in and expect. And so

568
00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:48,480
Speaker 5: does people want dollars. People want us treasuries, people want

569
00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:52,000
Speaker 5: these financial assets. And now two things are throwing that

570
00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:56,400
Speaker 5: into question. The first, obviously is Trump's impulsive economic policy,

571
00:32:56,440 --> 00:32:59,800
Speaker 5: which disregards the importance of institutions in the first place.

572
00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:03,760
Speaker 5: But the second is we're flooding the market yet again

573
00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:09,040
Speaker 5: with dollars and dollar denominated assets. Like the deficit last

574
00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:11,920
Speaker 5: year was seven percent of GDP. It's not supposed to

575
00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:14,360
Speaker 5: be that high in a healthy economy. And right now

576
00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:18,080
Speaker 5: the plan is another six trillion dollars of tax cuts,

577
00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:21,680
Speaker 5: which is just to give it for perspective, is as

578
00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:24,480
Speaker 5: much as the tax cuts of Trump one point zero

579
00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:29,920
Speaker 5: and the pandemic aid combined. And we're already at seven

580
00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:33,040
Speaker 5: percent of g So we have another moment where we've

581
00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:37,120
Speaker 5: flooded the world with dollars where they're losing value and

582
00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:41,040
Speaker 5: the underlying guarantee of that value, the security of American

583
00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:45,840
Speaker 5: capitalists institutions is under threat, and so you're seeing an

584
00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:49,960
Speaker 5: unprecedented period and a potential run do it.

585
00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:53,760
Speaker 2: Yesterday night there was a news story President Trump said

586
00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:57,160
Speaker 2: he wouldn't want to raise taxes on millionaires because it

587
00:33:57,160 --> 00:34:01,520
Speaker 2: would be quote disruptive to the and then he said

588
00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:04,000
Speaker 2: that the millionaires would leave the country, which I'd hope

589
00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:06,680
Speaker 2: most of them would be, uh, you know, stick around.

590
00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:09,000
Speaker 1: But that's his view of them.

591
00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:11,239
Speaker 2: But what does it say, you know, about even the

592
00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:16,160
Speaker 2: prospect for market craft if people in government don't feel

593
00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:19,320
Speaker 2: that they have the capacity, the political power, et cetera

594
00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:23,520
Speaker 2: to at times bring pockets of wealth truly healed, so

595
00:34:23,640 --> 00:34:26,799
Speaker 2: to speak, and to wield that power, or were they like,

596
00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:30,080
Speaker 2: is there any prospect for positive market craft in a

597
00:34:30,160 --> 00:34:34,520
Speaker 2: world where politicians feel that like they're subservient to.

598
00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:37,000
Speaker 1: Huge pockets of wealth.

599
00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:39,600
Speaker 4: I very much think so.

600
00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:43,600
Speaker 5: So I'm skeptical in this administration that that's gonna happen,

601
00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:47,719
Speaker 5: but I think there's all kinds of opportunities for positive

602
00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:49,799
Speaker 5: market crafts. So the things that I focus on these

603
00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:53,520
Speaker 5: days are the cost of living crisis in the United States.

604
00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:56,680
Speaker 5: I mean, that is what voters are very clearly still

605
00:34:57,040 --> 00:35:01,240
Speaker 5: frustrated about. Prices are up twenty percent from the beginning

606
00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:05,560
Speaker 5: of the pandemic till now, and it's particularly concentrated in

607
00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:07,680
Speaker 5: things like housing. I meaner can spend a third of

608
00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:11,360
Speaker 5: their income on housing, and then if you go to groceries,

609
00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:14,920
Speaker 5: and then you go to care, healthcare, childcare, you're above

610
00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:19,560
Speaker 5: fifty percent for most families. And so we can craft

611
00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:23,840
Speaker 5: housing markets to make housing cheaper. We can certainly do

612
00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:26,800
Speaker 5: some of the zoning and streamlining that the abundance folks

613
00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:29,120
Speaker 5: like Ezra Kline and others are for. I think that's

614
00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:29,840
Speaker 5: a good idea.

615
00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:30,319
Speaker 4: I kind of.

616
00:35:30,239 --> 00:35:33,920
Speaker 3: Wondered how long it would take us before I mentioned abundant.

617
00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:38,040
Speaker 4: We got it's pretty good. I think that those are

618
00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:38,760
Speaker 4: good ideas.

619
00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:41,480
Speaker 5: But I also don't think that you can just make

620
00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:44,560
Speaker 5: it easier to build and then sit back and hope

621
00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:46,360
Speaker 5: people show up. At least that's not been the experience

622
00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:49,839
Speaker 5: in California. Like it's been years since they have been

623
00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:52,160
Speaker 5: on this process of trying to change their laws and

624
00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:54,800
Speaker 5: building starts are not showing the same kind of growth

625
00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:57,800
Speaker 5: that you would like. You have to craft markets more aggressively.

626
00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:02,000
Speaker 5: There's a lot of other tools, particular public investment. So

627
00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:08,480
Speaker 5: we need a housing construction fund for multifamily developers to

628
00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:11,359
Speaker 5: make it cheaper to build. You guys have had some

629
00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:14,640
Speaker 5: folks on your podcast make who make this case. You know,

630
00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:17,440
Speaker 5: the estimates are that for an investment of about fifty

631
00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:20,560
Speaker 5: billion dollars at a federal level, you could get somewhere

632
00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:23,720
Speaker 5: between one and two million home spell and that's about

633
00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:26,480
Speaker 5: half the housing shortfall in the United States. That's quite

634
00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:29,560
Speaker 5: a lot of progress. You could have an industrial policy

635
00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:33,240
Speaker 5: for modular. So modular is the kind of housing where

636
00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:35,520
Speaker 5: you build the components off site and then you bring

637
00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:38,399
Speaker 5: them in. And there's this amazing time lass video which

638
00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:41,800
Speaker 5: I saw about six weeks ago of an apartment building

639
00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:45,560
Speaker 5: in Denver where they bring in the pieces and it

640
00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:48,080
Speaker 5: goes so quickly. It looks like the Mike Sun places

641
00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:52,440
Speaker 5: with magnetiles, these like pies. They're amazing. But you just

642
00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:55,720
Speaker 5: see it, and you just watch this. This apartment building

643
00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:59,520
Speaker 5: with seventy seven units go up in the course of

644
00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:04,680
Speaker 5: seven days, and it's mind blowing. And half of the

645
00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:07,400
Speaker 5: building that happens in the Nordic countries is through modular

646
00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:12,040
Speaker 5: and so that's a kind of industry that I think

647
00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:14,600
Speaker 5: if we had an industrial policy to encourage and not

648
00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:18,359
Speaker 5: just public investment, but also standard setting making sure it's

649
00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:21,520
Speaker 5: possible for people to get mortgages for them, you could

650
00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:23,960
Speaker 5: see significantly more development. So I think we need a

651
00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:26,759
Speaker 5: market craft for housing. On food, I think we could

652
00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:31,080
Speaker 5: do reserve stock buffering on eggs and coffee, like I

653
00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:34,200
Speaker 5: talk about in the book on care, there's a whole

654
00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:37,319
Speaker 5: set of interventions as well. There's an aspirational agenda, is

655
00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:40,080
Speaker 5: what I'm trying to say, that could help us attack

656
00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:44,279
Speaker 5: the cost of living crisis. And this administration is going

657
00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:47,960
Speaker 5: to hike prices through the tear of policy, not bring

658
00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:50,560
Speaker 5: them down. And so Democrats are going to have to

659
00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:55,040
Speaker 5: have another message and also the specific policy expertise to

660
00:37:55,640 --> 00:37:56,440
Speaker 5: get it done.

661
00:37:56,680 --> 00:37:58,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a long running joke on all Blots that

662
00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:01,400
Speaker 3: what America really needs is a strategic pork preserve.

663
00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:03,680
Speaker 4: I think all agree on this.

664
00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:09,040
Speaker 3: Okay, speaking of agreeing, one of the chapters in your

665
00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:12,040
Speaker 3: book that I really enjoyed was the sort of behind

666
00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:14,360
Speaker 3: the scenes look at Bidenomics.

667
00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:16,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, and you.

668
00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:18,960
Speaker 3: Do get a really good sense of some of the

669
00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:23,600
Speaker 3: discussions that take place, the areas of disagreement. The sort

670
00:38:23,640 --> 00:38:28,040
Speaker 3: of protagonist and antagonist, I guess in this discussion in

671
00:38:28,080 --> 00:38:32,120
Speaker 3: your book is Larry Summers versus Brian Deese exactly. And

672
00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:35,600
Speaker 3: you were also involved in the Obama administration, like talk

673
00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:38,440
Speaker 3: to us what you learned about the actual sausage making

674
00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:42,520
Speaker 3: process of market craft and what sort of like how

675
00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:45,040
Speaker 3: do people actually reach consensus on a lot of these

676
00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:48,719
Speaker 3: things when they have very different opinions about how the

677
00:38:48,719 --> 00:38:49,640
Speaker 3: world works.

678
00:38:50,440 --> 00:38:53,879
Speaker 5: So I had this experience where in writing for most

679
00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:59,239
Speaker 5: of the book, I was largely in archives and secondary

680
00:38:59,239 --> 00:39:01,719
Speaker 5: literature in the past, and then the last third of

681
00:39:01,719 --> 00:39:06,200
Speaker 5: the book is contemporary, and so the methodology just shifted

682
00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:09,879
Speaker 5: to talking to a lot of people. So I ended

683
00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:12,879
Speaker 5: up talking to most of the folks who had been

684
00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:16,879
Speaker 5: involved in Bidenomics inside the administration, and people like Larry

685
00:39:16,880 --> 00:39:18,520
Speaker 5: Summers and Jason Furman and a lot of people on

686
00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:18,759
Speaker 5: the LM.

687
00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:19,920
Speaker 3: Larry does like to talk.

688
00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:21,600
Speaker 4: It turns out.

689
00:39:23,239 --> 00:39:25,320
Speaker 5: I talked to a lot of people, and the person

690
00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:28,280
Speaker 5: that I zeroed in on was this man named Brian Deese,

691
00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:31,160
Speaker 5: who some of you may know. He has an odd

692
00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:35,640
Speaker 5: launch guest. Indeed, he was the chair of the National

693
00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:38,960
Speaker 5: Economic Council. The reason he's so interesting is because he

694
00:39:39,120 --> 00:39:43,320
Speaker 5: was one of Larry's protegees in two thousand and eight.

695
00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:45,880
Speaker 5: In two thousand and nine, he is on the Obama

696
00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:50,920
Speaker 5: campaign and he effectively runs the bailout of the auto companies,

697
00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:55,400
Speaker 5: and in that experience begins to see, wait a second,

698
00:39:55,880 --> 00:39:58,840
Speaker 5: we can't just be bailing. We can't have the emergency

699
00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:01,520
Speaker 5: room view of the economy where we come afterward. We

700
00:40:01,600 --> 00:40:04,719
Speaker 5: have to be thinking proactively ahead of time about how

701
00:40:04,719 --> 00:40:07,279
Speaker 5: to shape and build industries that work better. That takes

702
00:40:07,360 --> 00:40:09,960
Speaker 5: him to work on climate change. And then all of

703
00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:14,480
Speaker 5: a sudden the Biden administration, he becomes a director of

704
00:40:14,560 --> 00:40:17,080
Speaker 5: the National Economic Council, and then he.

705
00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:20,600
Speaker 4: Articulates this big vision. It has two pillars.

706
00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:24,480
Speaker 5: The first is build, so that's public investment in climate

707
00:40:25,280 --> 00:40:29,800
Speaker 5: infrastructure and chips. And the second is balance, so that's

708
00:40:30,080 --> 00:40:36,080
Speaker 5: competition in particular, but also supporting labor and other similar

709
00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:40,600
Speaker 5: kinds of initiatives to ensure that the economy is competitive.

710
00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:46,360
Speaker 5: And boy, Larry doesn't like it. He is throwing rocks

711
00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:49,480
Speaker 5: from the outside pretty much the entire time, and often

712
00:40:49,560 --> 00:40:52,360
Speaker 5: talking to Brian and others on the inside. And the

713
00:40:52,360 --> 00:40:55,280
Speaker 5: reason I think that story is so powerful is because

714
00:40:55,800 --> 00:40:59,920
Speaker 5: it shows the emergence of not just a new generation

715
00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:03,839
Speaker 5: and of policymakers, but a new way of thinking about

716
00:41:03,840 --> 00:41:07,480
Speaker 5: the economy which starts from the premise of market craft

717
00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:11,840
Speaker 5: and doesn't fall back into kind of neoclassical economic framework

718
00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:15,279
Speaker 5: of market failures and externalities. And how are we going

719
00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:17,000
Speaker 5: to fix things after the fact?

720
00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:20,120
Speaker 2: I guess I have more of a politics question, or

721
00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:23,400
Speaker 2: you know, we had this sort of nascent industrial policy

722
00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:26,279
Speaker 2: market crafting, and then it looks like the plug is

723
00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:29,440
Speaker 2: being pulled after four years, and I would guess that

724
00:41:29,520 --> 00:41:32,200
Speaker 2: there must be a lot of frustration among Democrats to

725
00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:35,279
Speaker 2: hear someone run on, We're going to build things in

726
00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:39,080
Speaker 2: America again, We're going to build manufacturing right after a

727
00:41:39,120 --> 00:41:42,440
Speaker 2: period of two or three years in which more plants

728
00:41:42,520 --> 00:41:46,040
Speaker 2: were opened and more factories were broken ground on than

729
00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:48,880
Speaker 2: any time in my life. And so what I'm curious

730
00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:53,600
Speaker 2: from your perspective, I guess from a political sustainability standpoint

731
00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:59,000
Speaker 2: is people seem to like in theory the idea of manufacturing,

732
00:41:59,040 --> 00:42:02,279
Speaker 2: the aesthetics of it, but do people actually like it

733
00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:05,120
Speaker 2: in practice? Or is like because it didn't seem like

734
00:42:05,160 --> 00:42:07,080
Speaker 2: it got any results politically.

735
00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:09,960
Speaker 5: I don't know if manufacturing per se is the thing

736
00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:12,680
Speaker 5: that people like. And I'm a little skeptical that you're

737
00:42:12,680 --> 00:42:17,200
Speaker 5: going to really reinvigorate the American economy by rebuilding a

738
00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:21,680
Speaker 5: manufacturing sector. But I'm not quite sure I agree with

739
00:42:21,719 --> 00:42:25,280
Speaker 5: the premise of the question. Trump is certainly not pursuing

740
00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:28,840
Speaker 5: a market craft, that's clear. However, a lot of the

741
00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:33,560
Speaker 5: people around him have spent years developing their own visions

742
00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:36,560
Speaker 5: of a market craft that puts the state at the center.

743
00:42:36,760 --> 00:42:38,680
Speaker 1: So you're talking about or in Cass in your book,

744
00:42:38,719 --> 00:42:39,440
Speaker 1: for example.

745
00:42:39,200 --> 00:42:41,240
Speaker 5: Well, or in Cass, But I'm talking about Marco Rubio

746
00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:43,800
Speaker 5: and JD. Vance and Josh Holly, a lot of these

747
00:42:44,360 --> 00:42:48,000
Speaker 5: guys who I think are the future of the Republican Party,

748
00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:53,240
Speaker 5: who believe that we need state institutions to direct markets

749
00:42:53,239 --> 00:42:56,480
Speaker 5: towards certain goals. Now, their goals are not really my goals,

750
00:42:56,600 --> 00:42:58,640
Speaker 5: I should say that. I mean, they are very concerned

751
00:42:58,640 --> 00:43:03,000
Speaker 5: about drone and critical minerals and national security, whereas I'm

752
00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:07,520
Speaker 5: more interested in climate change and other things. But nonetheless,

753
00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:12,239
Speaker 5: right before Vance became the vice presidential nominee, he was

754
00:43:12,280 --> 00:43:16,640
Speaker 5: about to introduce a bill for a national Investment Bank,

755
00:43:17,480 --> 00:43:19,680
Speaker 5: the same idea that I was just talking about from

756
00:43:19,719 --> 00:43:24,320
Speaker 5: the New Deal era, that he believed as an institution

757
00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:27,080
Speaker 5: would have the power to direct markets. Now he was

758
00:43:27,080 --> 00:43:30,000
Speaker 5: doing that with Chris Coons and Mark Warner and folks

759
00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:32,080
Speaker 5: on the left. But what I'm trying to say is

760
00:43:32,239 --> 00:43:35,759
Speaker 5: it may be dormant in this period, but I don't

761
00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:37,959
Speaker 5: think that ideology is gone. We're going to hear about

762
00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:39,920
Speaker 5: a sovereign wealth fund in the next few weeks from

763
00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:44,400
Speaker 5: this administration, and there's a deadline that the Treasury Secretary

764
00:43:44,440 --> 00:43:46,800
Speaker 5: will have to bring a report on it. I wouldn't

765
00:43:46,800 --> 00:43:51,080
Speaker 5: be surprised if we see some trace remnants there. Even

766
00:43:51,120 --> 00:43:53,879
Speaker 5: though I am skeptical that anything meaningfully will be will

767
00:43:53,920 --> 00:43:56,960
Speaker 5: be done. I don't think that means that it's that

768
00:43:57,000 --> 00:44:00,680
Speaker 5: Trump's chaos can define the Republican Party for wherever and ever.

769
00:44:01,680 --> 00:44:03,880
Speaker 3: We do have some questions from the audience that we

770
00:44:03,880 --> 00:44:08,719
Speaker 3: should probably bring in. I'll start with one, obviously very

771
00:44:08,719 --> 00:44:12,280
Speaker 3: topical at the moment, but how is market craft playing

772
00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:15,960
Speaker 3: into the race for dominance in artificial intelligence?

773
00:44:17,800 --> 00:44:18,040
Speaker 4: Yeah?

774
00:44:18,120 --> 00:44:22,480
Speaker 5: I mean, so far, the federal government has decided to

775
00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:26,560
Speaker 5: let the private sector, you know, develop AI on its own.

776
00:44:26,640 --> 00:44:28,760
Speaker 5: In the United States, it's certainly different than in China

777
00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:33,120
Speaker 5: and then elsewhere, and there hasn't been a market craft.

778
00:44:33,160 --> 00:44:35,320
Speaker 5: There's been talk of it in the Senate in particular.

779
00:44:35,360 --> 00:44:39,960
Speaker 5: There's interest in public investment. There's been talk of what

780
00:44:40,000 --> 00:44:43,680
Speaker 5: we call public option for the cloud, so a way

781
00:44:43,719 --> 00:44:47,640
Speaker 5: of making it easier for smaller companies to access computing

782
00:44:47,680 --> 00:44:51,600
Speaker 5: powder to build advanced AI models. But none of that

783
00:44:51,680 --> 00:44:55,239
Speaker 5: has yet come to fruition, And so I think it's

784
00:44:55,280 --> 00:44:57,920
Speaker 5: important to say that, like, market craft isn't everywhere all

785
00:44:57,960 --> 00:45:01,360
Speaker 5: the time. You know, lots of policies effect markets, but

786
00:45:01,440 --> 00:45:03,920
Speaker 5: the craft and market you have to have, you know,

787
00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:08,680
Speaker 5: policy makers with a clear intent shaping it and guiding it.

788
00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:12,080
Speaker 5: And so far in the AI markets it's been more

789
00:45:12,080 --> 00:45:13,040
Speaker 5: of a hands off kind.

790
00:45:12,880 --> 00:45:15,200
Speaker 3: Of But if we had like a loan office for

791
00:45:15,400 --> 00:45:19,000
Speaker 3: AI startups something like that would count as explicit market

792
00:45:19,000 --> 00:45:19,719
Speaker 3: craft for sure.

793
00:45:19,719 --> 00:45:23,200
Speaker 5: If Congress said, hey, we want more small businesses doing AI,

794
00:45:23,400 --> 00:45:25,239
Speaker 5: so we're going to appropriate money and we're going to

795
00:45:25,400 --> 00:45:27,600
Speaker 5: create an office over here in the Commerce Department to

796
00:45:27,680 --> 00:45:30,680
Speaker 5: do that, they're there, they have they have an agenda,

797
00:45:30,680 --> 00:45:33,200
Speaker 5: they're crafting that market just putting.

798
00:45:32,880 --> 00:45:36,480
Speaker 2: It back on your tech founder for a second, kind

799
00:45:36,480 --> 00:45:38,239
Speaker 2: of separate from market craft, but I guess it sort

800
00:45:38,239 --> 00:45:41,800
Speaker 2: of intersects with this. When Deep Seat came out, people

801
00:45:41,840 --> 00:45:44,319
Speaker 2: started really and it was before that too, but people

802
00:45:44,480 --> 00:45:49,000
Speaker 2: really started to talking about AI specifically. Is this existential

803
00:45:49,120 --> 00:45:52,759
Speaker 2: area of competition kind of like uh, kind of like

804
00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:54,120
Speaker 2: achieving the nuclear bomb?

805
00:45:54,200 --> 00:45:56,359
Speaker 1: Like who is going to get to AGI first? US

806
00:45:56,440 --> 00:45:57,160
Speaker 1: or China?

807
00:45:57,320 --> 00:45:58,080
Speaker 4: Do you uh?

808
00:45:58,520 --> 00:46:01,919
Speaker 2: I mean, do you think of AI or AGI specifically

809
00:46:02,480 --> 00:46:03,800
Speaker 2: in such stakes?

810
00:46:05,440 --> 00:46:07,279
Speaker 5: It's a huge deal. I'm not sure I want to

811
00:46:07,280 --> 00:46:09,640
Speaker 5: go to the nuclear bomb. That seems like a very

812
00:46:09,719 --> 00:46:13,400
Speaker 5: high bar, but it's a huge deal. I think that

813
00:46:13,600 --> 00:46:18,880
Speaker 5: the advances in AI, it's certainly the most profound changes

814
00:46:18,920 --> 00:46:22,879
Speaker 5: in technology in my I think, I want to say,

815
00:46:22,880 --> 00:46:25,440
Speaker 5: in my life. It feels more transformative to me than

816
00:46:25,440 --> 00:46:28,239
Speaker 5: the mobile phone, which I think would be my bar.

817
00:46:28,520 --> 00:46:30,680
Speaker 4: I mean, it's I'm using the models.

818
00:46:31,120 --> 00:46:33,800
Speaker 5: My husband's in the front row, he watches me, and

819
00:46:33,800 --> 00:46:36,960
Speaker 5: to use the models all day every day for everything

820
00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:42,240
Speaker 5: from like recipe substitutions to you know, doing deep research

821
00:46:42,280 --> 00:46:44,120
Speaker 5: on a particular topic. Of course, you have to check

822
00:46:44,160 --> 00:46:46,399
Speaker 5: the facts, this and that, but I mean they are

823
00:46:46,440 --> 00:46:48,200
Speaker 5: incredibly powerful, Tracy.

824
00:46:48,280 --> 00:46:51,240
Speaker 2: I have to say, like I'm an AI user enthusiast

825
00:46:51,280 --> 00:46:51,760
Speaker 2: for Tracy.

826
00:46:51,800 --> 00:46:54,200
Speaker 3: I to watch Joe use the models all day.

827
00:46:54,360 --> 00:46:55,080
Speaker 4: You don't use them.

828
00:46:55,680 --> 00:46:57,640
Speaker 3: I do know, I do it, just not as.

829
00:46:57,640 --> 00:46:59,560
Speaker 1: Much as way.

830
00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:04,000
Speaker 2: I am an enthusiastic trier outer of all the AI models,

831
00:47:04,000 --> 00:47:08,840
Speaker 2: and I recently got access to Mannus. Yeah, but I

832
00:47:08,880 --> 00:47:12,120
Speaker 2: have yet to find an application that consistently enhances my

833
00:47:12,360 --> 00:47:13,319
Speaker 2: work productivity.

834
00:47:13,360 --> 00:47:14,479
Speaker 1: Really, Yeah, that's not true.

835
00:47:14,880 --> 00:47:17,000
Speaker 4: Okay, headlining, I haven't.

836
00:47:17,280 --> 00:47:19,040
Speaker 1: But I'm better at headlines, of course you are.

837
00:47:19,280 --> 00:47:19,480
Speaker 4: No.

838
00:47:19,480 --> 00:47:22,400
Speaker 5: No, but that's of course you are. But it's helpful

839
00:47:22,440 --> 00:47:26,320
Speaker 5: to have a kind of sidekick to brainstorm headline Tracy.

840
00:47:26,520 --> 00:47:29,880
Speaker 4: Okay, well, fair enough. Not all of us have, Tracy.

841
00:47:31,040 --> 00:47:34,080
Speaker 3: No, I disagree with this. Like AI is a phenomenal

842
00:47:34,120 --> 00:47:36,960
Speaker 3: tool for our day to day productivity, it just is.

843
00:47:39,120 --> 00:47:42,560
Speaker 3: Why did I ask another question from the audience. I

844
00:47:42,600 --> 00:47:44,399
Speaker 3: know you care about climate change and this is one

845
00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:46,839
Speaker 3: of your big projects. So we have someone asking how

846
00:47:46,880 --> 00:47:49,600
Speaker 3: do we make progress with climate policy in light of

847
00:47:49,640 --> 00:47:55,200
Speaker 3: its politicization, politicalization and the issue of affordability. And one

848
00:47:55,239 --> 00:47:57,480
Speaker 3: thing I would just add on to that question is,

849
00:47:58,080 --> 00:48:01,000
Speaker 3: you know, one of the things we've seen under binomics

850
00:48:01,160 --> 00:48:04,920
Speaker 3: was Oh, we should build more green technology in the US,

851
00:48:05,280 --> 00:48:07,919
Speaker 3: and a lot of that makes sense. But I guess

852
00:48:07,960 --> 00:48:10,800
Speaker 3: the counter argument to doing that is, if we really

853
00:48:10,840 --> 00:48:13,719
Speaker 3: care about the climate, and if there is actually this

854
00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:16,960
Speaker 3: massive sense of urgency to doing something about it, then

855
00:48:17,600 --> 00:48:21,239
Speaker 3: why not get all the really cheap solar panels in

856
00:48:21,600 --> 00:48:23,480
Speaker 3: volume from a place like China.

857
00:48:24,600 --> 00:48:30,040
Speaker 5: Well, I think we need even more investment, likely significantly

858
00:48:30,080 --> 00:48:33,279
Speaker 5: more investment than we got out of the IRA, and

859
00:48:33,600 --> 00:48:36,759
Speaker 5: we need it to be better coordinated. So I think

860
00:48:36,760 --> 00:48:41,040
Speaker 5: the IRA investments are still stand. Obviously, business uncertainty has

861
00:48:41,080 --> 00:48:43,239
Speaker 5: just gone through the roof, so no one exactly knows

862
00:48:43,280 --> 00:48:47,000
Speaker 5: what's going to happen. There are signs that the Republicans

863
00:48:47,040 --> 00:48:50,239
Speaker 5: will keep some of the pieces of the IRA, maybe

864
00:48:50,239 --> 00:48:53,319
Speaker 5: not for solar panels or evs, but for things like

865
00:48:53,640 --> 00:48:59,359
Speaker 5: hydrogen or carbon capture or things like that. I'm cautiously optimistic,

866
00:48:59,560 --> 00:49:03,040
Speaker 5: but we need additional investment, and then we do really

867
00:49:03,080 --> 00:49:07,400
Speaker 5: need an institution whose mission it is to tackle climate change,

868
00:49:07,440 --> 00:49:10,040
Speaker 5: and the Congress can hold accountable so that instead of

869
00:49:10,080 --> 00:49:12,040
Speaker 5: just saying, oh, we're going to give subsidies through the

870
00:49:12,040 --> 00:49:15,360
Speaker 5: tax code, where the government effectively has no ability to

871
00:49:15,400 --> 00:49:17,720
Speaker 5: determine what's getting the most funding.

872
00:49:18,080 --> 00:49:20,440
Speaker 4: There is an ability to say.

873
00:49:20,239 --> 00:49:24,759
Speaker 5: Okay, this, these breakthrough technologies need more support. These other

874
00:49:24,800 --> 00:49:27,799
Speaker 5: things are doing just fine. I think that's going to

875
00:49:27,800 --> 00:49:31,000
Speaker 5: be the long term solution. I'm a bit I'm with you.

876
00:49:31,239 --> 00:49:34,200
Speaker 5: I'm not sure that tariffs on solar panels are going

877
00:49:34,280 --> 00:49:38,479
Speaker 5: to help us get to the you know, the tools

878
00:49:38,520 --> 00:49:40,600
Speaker 5: that we need to combat climate change that we need.

879
00:49:41,120 --> 00:49:42,040
Speaker 4: Trace is right by the way.

880
00:49:42,080 --> 00:49:44,160
Speaker 2: I get a couple when it comes to AI, I

881
00:49:44,320 --> 00:49:45,640
Speaker 2: sometimes be like, okay, we're in.

882
00:49:45,719 --> 00:49:48,239
Speaker 3: I know because I literally watch you do this.

883
00:49:49,000 --> 00:49:51,200
Speaker 2: Joe was at the I co host the Audlats podcast.

884
00:49:51,239 --> 00:49:53,759
Speaker 2: We're interviewing Chris used tonight that your public library. What

885
00:49:53,800 --> 00:49:55,839
Speaker 2: would be some questions I do ask that and I

886
00:49:55,920 --> 00:49:58,200
Speaker 2: sometimes upload PDFs and just like just give me to

887
00:49:58,200 --> 00:49:58,680
Speaker 2: the summary.

888
00:49:59,480 --> 00:50:01,000
Speaker 4: So I wanted with me.

889
00:50:01,080 --> 00:50:03,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, no, that is helpful. It's helpful.

890
00:50:06,040 --> 00:50:09,920
Speaker 2: Someone to ask about student loans. And I'm curious, you know,

891
00:50:10,440 --> 00:50:14,560
Speaker 2: people perceive the market for higher education to be broken

892
00:50:14,880 --> 00:50:18,080
Speaker 2: in various ways, and I'm curious whether it's on the

893
00:50:18,120 --> 00:50:22,120
Speaker 2: funding side for the consumer, the student, or whether there's

894
00:50:22,160 --> 00:50:24,160
Speaker 2: anything interesting that you've learned.

895
00:50:23,960 --> 00:50:25,080
Speaker 1: About that space.

896
00:50:25,480 --> 00:50:27,400
Speaker 5: Yeah, so there are a lot of these markets that

897
00:50:27,400 --> 00:50:31,800
Speaker 5: I would call gray zones. Is higher education a market,

898
00:50:32,640 --> 00:50:34,839
Speaker 5: at least the way that I want to think about

899
00:50:34,880 --> 00:50:36,880
Speaker 5: it most of the time, it's not. It should just

900
00:50:36,920 --> 00:50:40,600
Speaker 5: be a fundamental, you know, good an opportunity that everybody

901
00:50:40,640 --> 00:50:41,920
Speaker 5: can get an education.

902
00:50:42,040 --> 00:50:43,040
Speaker 4: That they want.

903
00:50:43,440 --> 00:50:46,640
Speaker 5: So I'm not sure we even have to use a

904
00:50:46,680 --> 00:50:49,440
Speaker 5: market crafting framework to say, you know, college in the

905
00:50:49,560 --> 00:50:54,280
Speaker 5: United States should at least be affordable, if not free,

906
00:50:54,600 --> 00:50:57,920
Speaker 5: and there's a way to use policy to make that happen.

907
00:50:57,960 --> 00:51:00,239
Speaker 5: But I think that it is due for sort of

908
00:51:00,239 --> 00:51:06,320
Speaker 5: wholesale reimagination, and there is something wonderfully simple and direct

909
00:51:06,640 --> 00:51:11,000
Speaker 5: about you know, Bernie's promise for free college that you

910
00:51:11,040 --> 00:51:13,239
Speaker 5: know is hard to do, but I think it's that

911
00:51:13,400 --> 00:51:18,600
Speaker 5: kind of aspirational guarantee that people crave, people respond to,

912
00:51:18,680 --> 00:51:21,840
Speaker 5: and it's policy makers response to deliver on that. Of course,

913
00:51:22,520 --> 00:51:24,360
Speaker 5: you're going to have to raise taxes, whether it's for

914
00:51:24,440 --> 00:51:26,160
Speaker 5: this or some of the other issues that we've talked

915
00:51:26,160 --> 00:51:30,520
Speaker 5: about to make that happen, But I don't know that

916
00:51:30,800 --> 00:51:32,920
Speaker 5: that's the I think that's the kind of country I

917
00:51:32,920 --> 00:51:34,200
Speaker 5: want to live in. I think that's the kind of

918
00:51:34,200 --> 00:51:35,880
Speaker 5: country that most Americans want to live in.

919
00:51:36,640 --> 00:51:38,839
Speaker 1: It's a great place to leave it. Chris Hughes, thank

920
00:51:38,920 --> 00:51:39,800
Speaker 1: you so much.

921
00:51:39,600 --> 00:51:53,399
Speaker 6: For joining us in this live episode.

922
00:51:59,640 --> 00:52:02,560
Speaker 3: That is our interview with Chris Hughes, the author of

923
00:52:02,719 --> 00:52:05,840
Speaker 3: Market Crafters, live at the New York Public Library.

924
00:52:05,960 --> 00:52:09,160
Speaker 2: Really good evening, really interesting topic. One very near and

925
00:52:09,200 --> 00:52:12,080
Speaker 2: dear to the themes that we've been talking about on odline.

926
00:52:12,160 --> 00:52:14,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely touches on a lot of them.

927
00:52:14,239 --> 00:52:15,799
Speaker 2: Shall we leave it there, Let's leave it there.

928
00:52:15,960 --> 00:52:18,360
Speaker 3: This has been another episode of the Odd Lots podcast.

929
00:52:18,400 --> 00:52:21,640
Speaker 3: I'm Tracy Alloway. You can follow me at Chacy Alloway, and.

930
00:52:21,600 --> 00:52:24,160
Speaker 2: I'm Joe Wisenthal. You can follow me at the Stalwart.

931
00:52:24,400 --> 00:52:27,880
Speaker 2: Follow Chris Hughes on Twitter. He's at Chris Hughes. Follow

932
00:52:27,880 --> 00:52:31,120
Speaker 2: our producers Kerman Rodriguez at Kerman armand dash Ol Bennett

933
00:52:31,120 --> 00:52:34,640
Speaker 2: at Dashbot and Killbrooks at Kalebrooks. From our Odd Lags content,

934
00:52:34,680 --> 00:52:37,000
Speaker 2: go to Bloomberg dot com slash odd Lots. We have

935
00:52:37,120 --> 00:52:39,759
Speaker 2: all of our episodes and a daily newsletter. You can

936
00:52:39,840 --> 00:52:41,840
Speaker 2: chat about all of these topics twenty four to seven

937
00:52:41,880 --> 00:52:45,719
Speaker 2: in our discord Discord dot gg slash od lots.

938
00:52:45,760 --> 00:52:47,880
Speaker 3: And if you enjoy odd Lots, if you like it

939
00:52:47,920 --> 00:52:50,200
Speaker 3: when we do these live events, then please leave us

940
00:52:50,239 --> 00:52:53,840
Speaker 3: a positive review on your favorite podcast platform. And remember,

941
00:52:53,920 --> 00:52:56,480
Speaker 3: if you are a Bloomberg subscriber, you can listen to

942
00:52:56,719 --> 00:52:59,799
Speaker 3: all of our episodes absolutely add free. All you need

943
00:52:59,800 --> 00:53:02,839
Speaker 3: toys find the Bloomberg channel on Apple Podcasts and follow

944
00:53:02,920 --> 00:53:05,240
Speaker 3: the instructions there. Thanks for listening.