1
00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:02,880
Speaker 1: Welcome to the Laverne Cox Show, a production of shawond

2
00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:09,399
Speaker 1: Land Audio in partnership with I Heart Radio. She hit

3
00:00:09,480 --> 00:00:12,920
Speaker 1: this partner when she gives up Rado the portrait Brandy

4
00:00:13,480 --> 00:00:16,880
Speaker 1: qu'st day, Margina, you know, but I did it Alla

5
00:00:16,920 --> 00:00:22,759
Speaker 1: Strand who has margin. We used to call that the

6
00:00:22,840 --> 00:00:25,720
Speaker 1: scotto me ow, kind of like Cuisoka cat the owing.

7
00:00:25,960 --> 00:00:27,920
Speaker 1: And she got it do to and she loved it

8
00:00:28,040 --> 00:00:31,080
Speaker 1: because well it was about her, and what Eva wouldn't

9
00:00:31,120 --> 00:00:45,080
Speaker 1: love something that's about them. Welcome to Laverne Cox Show.

10
00:00:45,440 --> 00:00:58,280
Speaker 1: I'm Laverne Cox. You've just heard the bella voce. The

11
00:00:58,320 --> 00:01:03,080
Speaker 1: beautiful voice of Virus if performing says alter Ego Madame

12
00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:06,960
Speaker 1: Vera Glupe Borshed, one of the founding members and the

13
00:01:06,959 --> 00:01:16,360
Speaker 1: primadonna of La Grande Shana Opera Company. For those of

14
00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:18,520
Speaker 1: you who may not be familiar with all the opera

15
00:01:18,680 --> 00:01:21,800
Speaker 1: terms we used, there is a glossary of opera terms

16
00:01:22,200 --> 00:01:27,839
Speaker 1: in our show notes. I was about ten years old

17
00:01:28,440 --> 00:01:32,200
Speaker 1: and I was watching PBS and they had announced that

18
00:01:32,319 --> 00:01:34,800
Speaker 1: Leontine Price was going to be on. I knew who

19
00:01:34,880 --> 00:01:37,440
Speaker 1: Leontine Price was because my mother gave me a black

20
00:01:37,480 --> 00:01:39,200
Speaker 1: history book when I was six years old, and I

21
00:01:39,280 --> 00:01:42,760
Speaker 1: used to stare at the photo of Leontine Price. She

22
00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:45,000
Speaker 1: was wearing a turban and she had these high cheek

23
00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:47,880
Speaker 1: bones and these very full lips. I thought she looked

24
00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:50,960
Speaker 1: like me, and I was just transfixed by this photo.

25
00:01:51,040 --> 00:01:53,720
Speaker 1: But I had never heard her sing. She's standing there

26
00:01:53,720 --> 00:01:57,280
Speaker 1: in this sort of militaristic stance, and she opens her

27
00:01:57,320 --> 00:02:03,120
Speaker 1: mouth and the most beautiful, awe inspiring sound comes out

28
00:02:03,160 --> 00:02:08,000
Speaker 1: of her, and it felt like this oval of earthy

29
00:02:08,160 --> 00:02:12,640
Speaker 1: vibration coming at me through the television. I just remember

30
00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:16,840
Speaker 1: shaking as I heard her sing, and I was hooked.

31
00:02:17,840 --> 00:02:22,520
Speaker 1: It was that moment in two watching PBS and Leontine

32
00:02:22,600 --> 00:02:40,359
Speaker 1: Price that made me a lifelong loan Prevan. Leontine Price

33
00:02:40,440 --> 00:02:43,880
Speaker 1: was a huge fan of Lagron Shana and referred to

34
00:02:43,919 --> 00:02:49,839
Speaker 1: Ira Siff as Madame Ira Siff found it in ninete

35
00:02:49,960 --> 00:02:53,560
Speaker 1: Lagron Shane I presented loving spooks of opera where all

36
00:02:53,639 --> 00:02:56,840
Speaker 1: the women's roles were performed by men and drag singing

37
00:02:56,880 --> 00:03:02,079
Speaker 1: an exquisite operettic falsetto. She's head of the company. La

38
00:03:02,120 --> 00:03:05,720
Speaker 1: Grande Shana is unbelievable. Ira Siff is one of the

39
00:03:05,720 --> 00:03:09,120
Speaker 1: greatest artists in the world. Though they are calculated to

40
00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:12,120
Speaker 1: be a spoof, they are the finest singers I have

41
00:03:12,200 --> 00:03:16,320
Speaker 1: ever heard. They have everything that is top drawer in

42
00:03:16,360 --> 00:03:21,880
Speaker 1: an opera ambiance. I just adore them. I met Ira

43
00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:25,760
Speaker 1: Siff for the first time in to study singing. Not

44
00:03:25,919 --> 00:03:28,639
Speaker 1: only did I want to sing opera, I had hoped

45
00:03:28,680 --> 00:03:32,119
Speaker 1: Ira could help me with a vocal transition, if you will,

46
00:03:32,240 --> 00:03:36,680
Speaker 1: from base baritone to soprano. If I ever have made

47
00:03:36,680 --> 00:03:39,920
Speaker 1: a beautiful operatic sound, it is likely because of Ira Siff.

48
00:03:40,520 --> 00:03:44,120
Speaker 1: He is an unparalleled performer and vocal artist. In the

49
00:03:44,200 --> 00:03:47,480
Speaker 1: year two thousand he began to direct operas. Mr Siff

50
00:03:47,520 --> 00:03:50,840
Speaker 1: writes for Opera News, is a weekly contributor for the

51
00:03:50,880 --> 00:03:55,520
Speaker 1: Metropolitan Opera Broadcast. Gives riveting lectures on opera for the

52
00:03:55,560 --> 00:03:59,320
Speaker 1: met Opera Guild, some of which are available in podcast form.

53
00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:02,840
Speaker 1: You must go check them out. I believe Ira Sif

54
00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:08,480
Speaker 1: to truly be a national treasure with exacting and uncompromising standards,

55
00:04:08,840 --> 00:04:12,760
Speaker 1: yet beautifully encouraging and supportive. Not a lot of people

56
00:04:12,760 --> 00:04:15,240
Speaker 1: have been in my life for over twenty five years.

57
00:04:15,920 --> 00:04:20,120
Speaker 1: I truly love Ira Sif. Likely in teen price, I

58
00:04:20,160 --> 00:04:22,440
Speaker 1: believe he is one of the greatest artists in the world.

59
00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:44,560
Speaker 1: Please enjoy my conversation with and celebration of Madame Ira Sif. Hello, Ira,

60
00:04:44,960 --> 00:04:47,160
Speaker 1: welcome to the podcast. How are you feeling to die?

61
00:04:47,960 --> 00:04:51,200
Speaker 1: I'm great, I'm happy to be with you. Vern of course,

62
00:04:52,040 --> 00:04:56,080
Speaker 1: I had to begin the podcast with the way La

63
00:04:56,080 --> 00:05:01,000
Speaker 1: Granjena performances often began with the righte of the Valkyries

64
00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:13,400
Speaker 1: from Wagner. How does it feel for you in sixty

65
00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:16,359
Speaker 1: years after this is your sixtieth anniversary, are going to opera?

66
00:05:16,360 --> 00:05:20,360
Speaker 1: How does it feel to hear that in this moment today? Well,

67
00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:23,320
Speaker 1: it's very nostalgic, of course, because it's about thirty years

68
00:05:23,320 --> 00:05:28,039
Speaker 1: since that particular performance. Although we sang Valkyrie I don't

69
00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:31,400
Speaker 1: know five hundred times during tours between eighty one and

70
00:05:32,000 --> 00:05:36,560
Speaker 1: two thousand and two. So when I hear it, it

71
00:05:36,640 --> 00:05:39,799
Speaker 1: really takes me back and I feel two things, of course,

72
00:05:39,839 --> 00:05:42,880
Speaker 1: and you will understand this, being the perfectionists that you are.

73
00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:45,800
Speaker 1: I think, Wow, that was exciting and fun, and then

74
00:05:45,839 --> 00:05:49,000
Speaker 1: I think, oh, I wish I'd done that no better.

75
00:05:49,560 --> 00:05:53,720
Speaker 1: M hmmm. Is there ever a moment when you can

76
00:05:53,839 --> 00:05:59,280
Speaker 1: listen to yourself and not have critique? I would say

77
00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:02,360
Speaker 1: no moments when I don't have critique, but in spite

78
00:06:02,360 --> 00:06:05,760
Speaker 1: of that, I can hear things that I actually approve of,

79
00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:11,080
Speaker 1: oddly things probably later in my singing career, where I

80
00:06:11,120 --> 00:06:14,760
Speaker 1: feel technically things were really in line, even though the

81
00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:18,200
Speaker 1: voice wasn't as fresh and easy as it had been.

82
00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:21,600
Speaker 1: But then I think, oh, there's some really serious mature

83
00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:24,120
Speaker 1: artistry going on here with the comedy, and that makes

84
00:06:24,120 --> 00:06:35,119
Speaker 1: me kind of happy. So I wanted to begin with

85
00:06:35,680 --> 00:06:40,440
Speaker 1: what inspired lacros Shana and your love for opera, And

86
00:06:40,600 --> 00:06:43,160
Speaker 1: I want to start um sixty years ago with that

87
00:06:43,560 --> 00:06:47,120
Speaker 1: iconic year that Lantine Price made her debut at the

88
00:06:47,120 --> 00:06:50,800
Speaker 1: Metropolitan Opera and an Australians upon her named Jones sutherlandand

89
00:06:50,920 --> 00:06:54,640
Speaker 1: also made her debut at the Metropolitan Opera, and you

90
00:06:54,720 --> 00:07:00,719
Speaker 1: happened to be there for lah Stupendas debut New York City.

91
00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:04,080
Speaker 1: Can you tell us about how you found your way

92
00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:07,720
Speaker 1: to the opera in n when I was fifteen, And

93
00:07:07,720 --> 00:07:11,320
Speaker 1: it was very strange because I met this kid in

94
00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:14,000
Speaker 1: high school. It was what we would now call, I guess,

95
00:07:14,040 --> 00:07:18,000
Speaker 1: a nerd, but I found him endlessly amusing and very intelligent,

96
00:07:18,200 --> 00:07:21,200
Speaker 1: and his parents were into this thing called opera. I

97
00:07:21,280 --> 00:07:23,040
Speaker 1: knew nothing about it. My parents had taken me to

98
00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:25,920
Speaker 1: Broadway shows. I saw a lot of great you know,

99
00:07:26,040 --> 00:07:29,720
Speaker 1: my Fair Lady Gypsy, all these great musicals and plays

100
00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:32,760
Speaker 1: with original cast, but I've never been to the opera.

101
00:07:33,160 --> 00:07:36,200
Speaker 1: And his name was Robert, and Robert said, we'll come

102
00:07:36,240 --> 00:07:39,000
Speaker 1: over to my house and we'll go in my parents

103
00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:41,800
Speaker 1: finished basement, and we're going to listen to this new

104
00:07:41,880 --> 00:07:44,720
Speaker 1: recording that just came out of Luccia de l'amimore. I

105
00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:47,280
Speaker 1: had no idea what that was with Joan Sutherland, I

106
00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:50,080
Speaker 1: had no idea who that was. And I'll prepare you

107
00:07:50,120 --> 00:07:52,240
Speaker 1: with the libretto and then we'll go to the men

108
00:07:52,360 --> 00:07:55,560
Speaker 1: and we'll see it. So I heard this thing, and

109
00:07:55,600 --> 00:07:58,240
Speaker 1: I followed it with the words the Italian and the English,

110
00:07:58,240 --> 00:08:01,800
Speaker 1: and I was, you know, it was ice. Then I

111
00:08:01,960 --> 00:08:04,200
Speaker 1: went and we stood all the way up in the

112
00:08:04,200 --> 00:08:07,960
Speaker 1: family circle standing room, miles from the stage, and she

113
00:08:08,200 --> 00:08:12,400
Speaker 1: began to make that noise that she made in Nie.

114
00:08:12,440 --> 00:08:15,440
Speaker 1: It was something extraordinary. I'd never heard anything like it.

115
00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:22,240
Speaker 1: And by the end of the big mad scene that

116
00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:26,120
Speaker 1: climax is the opera for the title character, there was

117
00:08:26,160 --> 00:08:29,120
Speaker 1: something like twenty eight curtain calls. The place went berserk.

118
00:08:29,720 --> 00:08:32,960
Speaker 1: She was astonishing at that time, darting up and down

119
00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:37,280
Speaker 1: the stairs all over the stage while trilling and doing

120
00:08:37,320 --> 00:08:41,520
Speaker 1: this incredible virtuosic sinking. So I was. I was completely

121
00:08:41,559 --> 00:08:43,920
Speaker 1: blown away, and I left my poor friend Robert in

122
00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:47,040
Speaker 1: the dust and started going to the met in standing

123
00:08:47,120 --> 00:08:50,200
Speaker 1: room to three times a week, telling my parents I

124
00:08:50,240 --> 00:08:52,960
Speaker 1: was in school doing an art project, making up all

125
00:08:53,040 --> 00:08:55,600
Speaker 1: kinds of excuses. My father worked on the next block.

126
00:08:55,880 --> 00:08:58,880
Speaker 1: When he would pass by to go home to take

127
00:08:58,920 --> 00:09:01,440
Speaker 1: the subway to go to Brooke, where we lived, I

128
00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:04,319
Speaker 1: would duck down behind some mother standy so he wouldn't

129
00:09:04,320 --> 00:09:06,959
Speaker 1: see me. Why did you feel you had to lie

130
00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:09,680
Speaker 1: to your parents about going to the opera era? What

131
00:09:09,679 --> 00:09:11,920
Speaker 1: what was going on there? Well? It was. It was

132
00:09:12,040 --> 00:09:14,600
Speaker 1: kind of viewed as a kind of freaky thing, I think.

133
00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:18,000
Speaker 1: And also I think that I was supposed to be

134
00:09:18,040 --> 00:09:20,720
Speaker 1: doing things like homework, and for me, you know, this

135
00:09:20,800 --> 00:09:23,240
Speaker 1: turned out to be my homework. I was just preparing

136
00:09:23,280 --> 00:09:24,960
Speaker 1: to be a diva, but I didn't know it then,

137
00:09:25,520 --> 00:09:28,320
Speaker 1: you know. So there were knights they knew I was there,

138
00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:30,120
Speaker 1: and there were knights that they had no idea where

139
00:09:30,120 --> 00:09:34,240
Speaker 1: I was. M Joan is such an interesting diva because

140
00:09:34,800 --> 00:09:38,480
Speaker 1: she you know, she's Australian, and she began her career

141
00:09:38,640 --> 00:09:41,160
Speaker 1: when she when she got to cover Garden, she thought

142
00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:44,560
Speaker 1: she would be singing Bagnerian roles and that's what she

143
00:09:44,679 --> 00:09:47,880
Speaker 1: was sort of being groomed for until she met Richard Bonning,

144
00:09:48,080 --> 00:09:51,720
Speaker 1: who became her husband, and he had a different vision

145
00:09:51,800 --> 00:09:54,480
Speaker 1: for her. He thought that she could saying that bel

146
00:09:54,559 --> 00:09:57,839
Speaker 1: canto roles because she had a very big voice. And

147
00:09:57,880 --> 00:10:02,079
Speaker 1: then she discovered this this color a tour and this

148
00:10:02,280 --> 00:10:05,679
Speaker 1: flexibility and this agility and this and this beautiful upper

149
00:10:05,679 --> 00:10:10,440
Speaker 1: extension that is just insanely remarkable. I mean, you know

150
00:10:10,520 --> 00:10:13,600
Speaker 1: this better than me. What would you say about that?

151
00:10:13,640 --> 00:10:15,440
Speaker 1: But there are a couple of things. I think one

152
00:10:15,559 --> 00:10:18,480
Speaker 1: is that Richard had ears and he could tell that

153
00:10:18,520 --> 00:10:20,679
Speaker 1: there was a lot going on north of high Sea,

154
00:10:21,440 --> 00:10:23,800
Speaker 1: and he just tricked her into it. He would vocalize

155
00:10:23,800 --> 00:10:26,360
Speaker 1: her up without telling her how high they were going,

156
00:10:26,400 --> 00:10:27,880
Speaker 1: and take her to e flat when she thought it

157
00:10:27,960 --> 00:10:32,920
Speaker 1: was c It was very clever. But Jones's mother studied.

158
00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:36,240
Speaker 1: She studied with the student of Matilda Marchese Case was

159
00:10:36,280 --> 00:10:40,480
Speaker 1: the great voice teacher in Paris for years and years

160
00:10:40,520 --> 00:10:44,000
Speaker 1: decades between the late nineteenth and early twentieth century, and

161
00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:47,920
Speaker 1: so Joan just aped her mother and she learned how

162
00:10:47,960 --> 00:10:51,280
Speaker 1: to trill that incredible trill just sitting on her mother's knee,

163
00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:54,000
Speaker 1: you know, with the piano. So her technique was in

164
00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:56,440
Speaker 1: a way the most important part of it was self taught.

165
00:10:56,840 --> 00:10:59,960
Speaker 1: And then the exploitation of it, in a very posit

166
00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:03,840
Speaker 1: sort of sense, was Richard Richard bringing that out and

167
00:11:04,040 --> 00:11:06,880
Speaker 1: just defying all the powers that be had called and

168
00:11:06,880 --> 00:11:10,000
Speaker 1: Garden saying no, she should be singing children and aida,

169
00:11:10,280 --> 00:11:13,560
Speaker 1: you know. And finally they mounted that famous Luccia for her. Again.

170
00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:17,240
Speaker 1: That was her breakthrough, and that Luccia like sort of

171
00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:21,040
Speaker 1: broke the opera universe. Can we listen to a little

172
00:11:21,080 --> 00:11:25,000
Speaker 1: bit of that Luccia from Sutherland's debut season at the

173
00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:47,559
Speaker 1: matt m How do you feel listening to that now

174
00:11:47,679 --> 00:11:50,240
Speaker 1: and thinking about I mean, certainly there's a nostalgia for you,

175
00:11:50,320 --> 00:11:52,679
Speaker 1: but then the singing is just still still exquisite. How

176
00:11:52,679 --> 00:11:55,200
Speaker 1: does it feel listening to that now and then thinking

177
00:11:55,240 --> 00:11:58,480
Speaker 1: back to, you know, sixty years ago. Well, I feel

178
00:11:58,480 --> 00:12:01,680
Speaker 1: grateful that I were taken to that performance, but I

179
00:12:01,760 --> 00:12:05,439
Speaker 1: also feel this great thing that it isn't a nostalgia

180
00:12:05,480 --> 00:12:08,560
Speaker 1: fest that it really was that good. There's so much

181
00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:12,120
Speaker 1: documentation of her work and other people I worshiped call

182
00:12:12,240 --> 00:12:14,800
Speaker 1: Us and you know, others that shows us that, No,

183
00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:19,160
Speaker 1: it really was like that. It really was that exciting, virtuosic,

184
00:12:19,520 --> 00:12:25,439
Speaker 1: impressive and incredibly disciplined. Yes, for me, when I listened,

185
00:12:25,520 --> 00:12:28,200
Speaker 1: I mean, it's just so exquisite. I think the speed,

186
00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:32,760
Speaker 1: the agility, the trill is just insane. And no one

187
00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:35,839
Speaker 1: has ever trilled like that before I would, I would argue,

188
00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:39,959
Speaker 1: and since has trilled like Joan thrilled, especially in her heyday.

189
00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:43,000
Speaker 1: It's just so virtuosic, it's so thrilling, it's so exciting.

190
00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:44,920
Speaker 1: I just don't know how anyone could listen to it

191
00:12:44,920 --> 00:12:55,920
Speaker 1: and not just lose their minds. It's an extraordinary thing.

192
00:12:56,040 --> 00:12:59,360
Speaker 1: It's something that came from then that we don't really

193
00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:02,720
Speaker 1: have now. We don't hear people trilling that way any longer.

194
00:13:03,400 --> 00:13:06,840
Speaker 1: All of our case students could do it and suddenly

195
00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:09,480
Speaker 1: really had it to the very end, even when the

196
00:13:09,559 --> 00:13:12,520
Speaker 1: voice got older and other things weren't the same, that

197
00:13:12,559 --> 00:13:16,800
Speaker 1: remained the same. It's extraordinary, And you know, I I

198
00:13:16,880 --> 00:13:19,160
Speaker 1: don't want to be one of those people like back

199
00:13:19,160 --> 00:13:21,480
Speaker 1: in the day when singers did well, you know whatever.

200
00:13:21,760 --> 00:13:24,280
Speaker 1: But it's so fascinating to me that one of the

201
00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:26,960
Speaker 1: things that you said, I think U mini years ago

202
00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:30,040
Speaker 1: in a voice lesson we had that the style has

203
00:13:30,120 --> 00:13:33,760
Speaker 1: changed because there's no the maestro's that I'm conductors who

204
00:13:33,840 --> 00:13:37,200
Speaker 1: sort of groomed Diva's back then are you know? We

205
00:13:37,240 --> 00:13:39,680
Speaker 1: don't have those great conductors anymore, so, so much of

206
00:13:39,760 --> 00:13:42,480
Speaker 1: style has been lost. What I hear is I feel

207
00:13:42,480 --> 00:13:45,440
Speaker 1: like there's a lot of a lot of over darkening

208
00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:48,200
Speaker 1: that's happening, particularly with sopranos now, and I don't feel

209
00:13:48,200 --> 00:13:50,480
Speaker 1: like there's a lot of squealo is what I hear

210
00:13:50,520 --> 00:13:53,120
Speaker 1: when I see a lot of singers. Can you explain

211
00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:56,600
Speaker 1: what over darkening and squealo short for squeelan? D mean

212
00:13:56,960 --> 00:14:00,200
Speaker 1: sure was squeelo is is the frontal kind of in

213
00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:04,760
Speaker 1: a voice a bright sound ran then who that kind

214
00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:07,160
Speaker 1: of thing? And over darkening would have been the second

215
00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:10,320
Speaker 1: thing that I did. What would be the caricature opera

216
00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:14,480
Speaker 1: voice for somebody who doesn't like opera, it's very hooty,

217
00:14:14,559 --> 00:14:17,720
Speaker 1: dark kind of sound. I think part of it. There's

218
00:14:17,760 --> 00:14:20,320
Speaker 1: so many facets and layers to this one I think

219
00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:23,680
Speaker 1: is language that operas were performed in the languages of

220
00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:27,560
Speaker 1: the country, and the Italian language, like the Spanish language,

221
00:14:27,560 --> 00:14:32,240
Speaker 1: is extremely forward in placement, and that kind of production

222
00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:35,280
Speaker 1: has gone somewhat out of fashion, and the style has

223
00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:38,200
Speaker 1: changed since the I would say since the LP, since

224
00:14:38,240 --> 00:14:43,880
Speaker 1: the fifties and opera recordings, luxurious opera recordings in echo chambers.

225
00:14:44,280 --> 00:14:47,600
Speaker 1: It became more about the homogenized sound and the evenness

226
00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:49,760
Speaker 1: of the sound that the engineers were so proud of

227
00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:53,280
Speaker 1: that didn't really carry the excitement of what the voices

228
00:14:53,320 --> 00:14:56,200
Speaker 1: were like in the opera house. But even more than that,

229
00:14:56,320 --> 00:15:01,080
Speaker 1: Laverne composers were writing for the voice. They were writing

230
00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:04,280
Speaker 1: for the singers. And singers today because the art form

231
00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:08,000
Speaker 1: hasn't progressed very much in new works, singers today are

232
00:15:08,040 --> 00:15:11,920
Speaker 1: stuck singing stuff that was written for somebody else hundreds

233
00:15:11,920 --> 00:15:15,280
Speaker 1: of years ago and then trying to fit their work

234
00:15:15,640 --> 00:15:19,880
Speaker 1: into that framework. That's tricky, so I have to give

235
00:15:19,920 --> 00:15:25,080
Speaker 1: them credit for that extra struggle. Interesting, so much of

236
00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:28,200
Speaker 1: what I would I would argue faith propelled your career

237
00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:33,320
Speaker 1: as diva worship. Absolutely, these particular divas who inspired you

238
00:15:33,560 --> 00:15:36,520
Speaker 1: and kept you going to the opera, And you list

239
00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:41,640
Speaker 1: a few and after Sutherland, Leoni Wreathneck was the diva

240
00:15:41,680 --> 00:15:45,240
Speaker 1: who really captivated you. Can you talk about the first

241
00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:49,200
Speaker 1: time you saw rheas nick At at the Old matt Yes.

242
00:15:49,320 --> 00:15:52,120
Speaker 1: First time I saw her was oddly not a Wagnerian

243
00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:54,960
Speaker 1: or Strouds world, but it was des Temula and Hotelo,

244
00:15:55,480 --> 00:16:00,080
Speaker 1: and there have been death threats against her by fans

245
00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:02,480
Speaker 1: of I think Tibaldi and millan Of people were very

246
00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:05,680
Speaker 1: passionate in those days. Why were their death threats, Well,

247
00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:08,280
Speaker 1: can you can you give us? Yes? Because she had

248
00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:10,320
Speaker 1: what she was going through a bit of a vocal

249
00:16:10,360 --> 00:16:13,800
Speaker 1: crisis time, and she had the nerve, according to these people,

250
00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:18,880
Speaker 1: to sing, take up space, singing the roles of the

251
00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:22,560
Speaker 1: divas that they appreciated and thought, well, why would you

252
00:16:22,640 --> 00:16:25,040
Speaker 1: want to give her dist eminent when we have millan

253
00:16:25,120 --> 00:16:29,640
Speaker 1: Of or Tibaldi, So they actually threatened her life if

254
00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:32,520
Speaker 1: she went on. And the first time I saw her,

255
00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:36,280
Speaker 1: she was so intensely exciting. There were moments that the

256
00:16:36,280 --> 00:16:40,040
Speaker 1: audience burst into applause just because she was so exciting,

257
00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:43,080
Speaker 1: like their confrontation to it and the third act with

258
00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:47,080
Speaker 1: hotelaway he threw her to the ground and people went crazy.

259
00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:50,360
Speaker 1: But she made a curtain speech and she said, uh, please,

260
00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:53,760
Speaker 1: if you don't like me, don't come to see me,

261
00:16:53,880 --> 00:16:57,360
Speaker 1: but please don't threaten to kill me. And that was

262
00:16:57,400 --> 00:17:00,360
Speaker 1: my first experience, and I was hooked. I mean this

263
00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:02,960
Speaker 1: woman and she was what we used to call on

264
00:17:03,040 --> 00:17:07,040
Speaker 1: the standing room line demented, which in those days simply

265
00:17:07,080 --> 00:17:11,720
Speaker 1: meant someone so fearlessly abandoned when they sang that they

266
00:17:11,760 --> 00:17:15,000
Speaker 1: were lost in the role. And she had this upper

267
00:17:15,040 --> 00:17:18,119
Speaker 1: register the likes of which I've simply never heard in

268
00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:21,160
Speaker 1: my life, that was both rooted to let's say, her

269
00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:26,400
Speaker 1: toes or really her private parts, and yet sparkled as

270
00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:29,160
Speaker 1: if it was emanating from the chandelier of the house.

271
00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:33,080
Speaker 1: At the same time suspended no idea where it came from,

272
00:17:33,080 --> 00:17:55,080
Speaker 1: but it was a phenomenon. Oh my god, that's so fabulous.

273
00:17:55,160 --> 00:17:56,800
Speaker 1: It's really just what we were talking about when we're

274
00:17:56,800 --> 00:17:59,080
Speaker 1: talking about Wogner that there was. It's hard to tell

275
00:17:59,119 --> 00:18:01,040
Speaker 1: in them recording, but the always feels very big, but

276
00:18:01,080 --> 00:18:03,520
Speaker 1: it is soaring and it is that there's no weight

277
00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:06,080
Speaker 1: on it, but it's very dramatic at the same time,

278
00:18:06,119 --> 00:18:10,200
Speaker 1: it's very rare. I can't think of any singer and honestly,

279
00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:12,879
Speaker 1: who has that level of being a dramatic soprano, but

280
00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:15,600
Speaker 1: it's that floated and at the top of the range

281
00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:20,720
Speaker 1: only Nielsen. But it wasn't the same intended different pingy

282
00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:25,199
Speaker 1: and detached. This was somehow rooted yet suspended. It was

283
00:18:25,359 --> 00:18:28,280
Speaker 1: a real I was a mystery, and you would just

284
00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:30,879
Speaker 1: go and you would just wait. I mean everything she

285
00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:33,560
Speaker 1: did was exciting, but you would wait for those notes

286
00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:36,760
Speaker 1: because no one could sing like that. And that is

287
00:18:36,760 --> 00:18:40,320
Speaker 1: something I can say I have not heard since. For me,

288
00:18:40,359 --> 00:18:42,720
Speaker 1: it feels very bell conto. I think they're different bell

289
00:18:42,800 --> 00:18:45,840
Speaker 1: Conto schools and they're different schools of singing. It feels

290
00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:50,840
Speaker 1: very connected and feels very legato, but it is did

291
00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:55,119
Speaker 1: it's drama and it is for Ta, but it is floating.

292
00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:07,920
Speaker 1: The voice had so much human vulnerability that she broke

293
00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:10,919
Speaker 1: your heart night after night, and that's something you know,

294
00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:13,920
Speaker 1: you just went back for that kind of emotional draw,

295
00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:17,040
Speaker 1: that kind of emotional pull you would leave sweating and

296
00:19:17,119 --> 00:19:21,480
Speaker 1: in tears. Mm hmm. Thinking about these two divas that

297
00:19:21,520 --> 00:19:24,840
Speaker 1: we've talked about so far, what do you feel Is

298
00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:27,560
Speaker 1: there anything specifically in a in a Sutherland or reasoning

299
00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:29,560
Speaker 1: that you feel like you've you know, sort of brought

300
00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:34,399
Speaker 1: into vera. There was with Sutherland, I mean I began

301
00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:37,400
Speaker 1: singing in falsetto, you know, in my parents basement when

302
00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:40,320
Speaker 1: they weren't home, to her recording the art of the

303
00:19:40,320 --> 00:19:45,960
Speaker 1: Prima Donna sixteen arias and very telling in that giant, beautiful,

304
00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:50,760
Speaker 1: luxurious LP set. There was a booklet, no libretto, no

305
00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:54,359
Speaker 1: text to any of the sixteen arias, but each aria

306
00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:57,760
Speaker 1: was associated with the diva. Well. That certainly warps your

307
00:19:57,800 --> 00:20:01,119
Speaker 1: orientation about opera in a certain direct. So for me

308
00:20:01,160 --> 00:20:04,600
Speaker 1: it was all about divas and what you could do pyrotechnically,

309
00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:07,479
Speaker 1: and so with her it was more an influence of

310
00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:12,120
Speaker 1: the florid singing I did, and of my diva worship,

311
00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:17,280
Speaker 1: and also the phenomenon of like a prize fighter with lipstick,

312
00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:22,040
Speaker 1: I mean, vocal athlete. Reason it inspired me just as

313
00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:27,800
Speaker 1: on stage, I never held back and I never walked

314
00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:31,560
Speaker 1: through performance, and I never I wish I'd paced myself more.

315
00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:34,359
Speaker 1: I tried, but I would always end up carried away.

316
00:20:34,840 --> 00:20:38,120
Speaker 1: And the reason it was more inspiration that way. The voice.

317
00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:41,159
Speaker 1: I would refer to the voice in certain notes and

318
00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:45,879
Speaker 1: when we had crazy, crazy fan audiences before the aids

319
00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:50,119
Speaker 1: crisis decimated that they'd recognize it in the scream, you know.

320
00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:52,359
Speaker 1: But but for me, she was more in the inspiration

321
00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:56,760
Speaker 1: than a direct vocal thing. Sutherland, Kaba a Scotto particularly

322
00:20:57,000 --> 00:21:01,480
Speaker 1: were more direct voy since I drew on to make

323
00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:04,879
Speaker 1: the amalgam that it became Madame Zra. But reason it

324
00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:10,040
Speaker 1: was an inspiration of an artist who gave everything to

325
00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:14,280
Speaker 1: her art, everything amazing. I have to tell you that

326
00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:17,680
Speaker 1: I had Joan Sutherland's art of the Prima Donna that

327
00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:21,639
Speaker 1: I got from the Mobile County Public Library on cassette,

328
00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:25,040
Speaker 1: and that was my first Sutherland Nights. I've had to

329
00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:28,280
Speaker 1: be in middle school or something. I was absolutely obsessed.

330
00:21:32,760 --> 00:21:35,359
Speaker 1: It's time for a short break when we come back

331
00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:57,640
Speaker 1: more with our guest. Alrighty, then let's just dive right

332
00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:04,639
Speaker 1: back in m We have to get to the diva

333
00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:08,600
Speaker 1: who inspired so many people in the twentieth century and

334
00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:13,240
Speaker 1: you count her as one of your main inspirations, Maria Callas.

335
00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:17,480
Speaker 1: Can you tell us your relationship to Maria callis the

336
00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:22,840
Speaker 1: first time you heard her saying this is gonna be good. Well,

337
00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:26,119
Speaker 1: it's as saga because it began with a trip to

338
00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:29,960
Speaker 1: Corvette's department store. Didn't no longer exists in New York

339
00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:35,080
Speaker 1: City to buy Jones Lucia album for myself. I mean

340
00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:37,199
Speaker 1: Robert had it, but I didn't have it, and it

341
00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:40,399
Speaker 1: was sold out, and I was just crestfallen and I

342
00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:43,320
Speaker 1: was looking through the bins of LPs and there was

343
00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:48,320
Speaker 1: this picture of this woman, this head on an album

344
00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:51,760
Speaker 1: cover with kind of magic marker I make up, and

345
00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:55,600
Speaker 1: the most fantastically compelling thing I've ever seen, and it

346
00:22:55,680 --> 00:22:59,600
Speaker 1: said Lucia gi Lama Moore call Us and I thought, hmm,

347
00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:02,280
Speaker 1: And it was just the highlights album. I thought, I

348
00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:04,679
Speaker 1: didn't want to buy a complete thing because I know

349
00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:07,760
Speaker 1: really much about who this was. And I took it

350
00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:10,480
Speaker 1: home and it was the strangest voice I've ever heard

351
00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:14,520
Speaker 1: in my life. I thought, something is wrong with the turntable.

352
00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:18,879
Speaker 1: So I had my parents called the repairman. Seymour. The

353
00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:22,879
Speaker 1: repairman came to fix the turntable because the vibrato was

354
00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:25,880
Speaker 1: so slow in this voice, and I thought, there's something

355
00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:28,639
Speaker 1: wrong with this. And Seymour said, there's nothing wrong with

356
00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:32,160
Speaker 1: the turntable, there's something wrong with the soprano. So what

357
00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:35,040
Speaker 1: year call it was? This? Do you know? Fifty nine?

358
00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:38,120
Speaker 1: It was her second Luccia, And while she was recording

359
00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:40,679
Speaker 1: that Lucia by the way, in London, she went to

360
00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:45,160
Speaker 1: the dress rehearsal of Sutherland's debut Luccio and attended it.

361
00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:47,840
Speaker 1: So then I would just go back to this recording

362
00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:53,320
Speaker 1: for certain phrases over and over and over. I couldn't

363
00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:55,399
Speaker 1: stop listening to it, to the point that I wore

364
00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:58,560
Speaker 1: it out. So then I went to the Brooklyn Public Library.

365
00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:01,200
Speaker 1: Like you, that was the source. Puty have no budget,

366
00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:05,040
Speaker 1: that's where you went, and I found earlier Collas stuff.

367
00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:08,960
Speaker 1: I put it Tany from ninety three, La Trapianta from

368
00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:13,439
Speaker 1: fifty three, and I thought, holy crap, this voice is

369
00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:18,080
Speaker 1: something bizarre. It's no more beautiful than the other one,

370
00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:24,560
Speaker 1: maybe even less, but rock solid, virtuosic, heart stopping, lee exciting.

371
00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:27,880
Speaker 1: So I just started to take any allowance money I had,

372
00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:31,600
Speaker 1: any money I could find, arn beg any gift and

373
00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:36,119
Speaker 1: bought Collis recordings one after another. And that's all I

374
00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:40,040
Speaker 1: spent my money on through high school was Collis recordings,

375
00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:43,959
Speaker 1: and I was completely addicted. And then I was at

376
00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:47,280
Speaker 1: summer camp and there was a little feature in the

377
00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:49,720
Speaker 1: Times that said Maria Collis was coming back to the

378
00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:54,440
Speaker 1: med where she'd been fired seven years earlier. And so

379
00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:58,000
Speaker 1: my friend Lex, who was my upper friend at summer camp,

380
00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:02,520
Speaker 1: he phoned me in Brooklyn and he said, get into Manhattan.

381
00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:04,720
Speaker 1: I've got a number for you on the Collis Line.

382
00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:10,960
Speaker 1: And it was Friday, six days before the performance, and

383
00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:15,040
Speaker 1: I said why what? He said, Yeah, they're selling on Sunday.

384
00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:18,800
Speaker 1: I got on the line and I stood in the

385
00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:21,679
Speaker 1: street for three days. I slept in the street for

386
00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:25,720
Speaker 1: two nights, and on Sunday they sold standing room tickets

387
00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:30,639
Speaker 1: for the first performance. The second performance, I totally lucked out.

388
00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:35,560
Speaker 1: My mother belonged to some Jewish lady organization and somebody

389
00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:40,040
Speaker 1: there didn't want to go to the Collis Tusca on

390
00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:44,119
Speaker 1: their subscription because he didn't liked that lady. So this

391
00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:48,640
Speaker 1: lady sold my mother hard two tickets. So I got

392
00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:51,520
Speaker 1: to see both Collis Tuscas at the Met and thows

393
00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:54,760
Speaker 1: were her last performances at the Met, and six months

394
00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:58,639
Speaker 1: later she retired from opera. So I was really lucky.

395
00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:02,440
Speaker 1: And all I tell you about that night was that

396
00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:05,720
Speaker 1: watching Carlos san Tito Golby in the second act of

397
00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:10,680
Speaker 1: Tosca was like looking through a keyhole at real events

398
00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:15,439
Speaker 1: that were later made into an opera. It was that vivid.

399
00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:19,680
Speaker 1: She was known as as as a great actress. Now

400
00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:22,840
Speaker 1: you you spoke of rhisnic with this abandoned You know,

401
00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:25,920
Speaker 1: in terms of the drama of the opera, what would

402
00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:28,040
Speaker 1: you I mean, not to compare, but what was the

403
00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:30,840
Speaker 1: difference for you with between a Rhasonic and a Callus

404
00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:32,920
Speaker 1: in terms of just the drama that they would bring

405
00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:36,040
Speaker 1: to do something. I think it depended with Callis on

406
00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:38,720
Speaker 1: what the repertoire was. Because tuscas of it is more opera,

407
00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:42,200
Speaker 1: so so in other words, it's it's a realistic opera

408
00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:45,040
Speaker 1: and the young people. Forasma was about real people, and

409
00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:48,119
Speaker 1: opera before that was sort of more about like kings

410
00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:51,720
Speaker 1: and queens and it was it wasn't like about working

411
00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:56,359
Speaker 1: class real folks exactly. So Tosca is about a singer

412
00:26:56,640 --> 00:26:59,600
Speaker 1: and uh a chief of police who's who wants to

413
00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:01,720
Speaker 1: molest to her and her boyfriend who was an artist.

414
00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:05,879
Speaker 1: Collus was very naturalistic in Tusca and her I was

415
00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:08,919
Speaker 1: so lucky her acting worked on two levels. The first

416
00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:12,200
Speaker 1: night I was downstairs in the standing room, very close

417
00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:15,520
Speaker 1: to the stage, and I saw her eyes, her hands

418
00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:19,359
Speaker 1: every Nuance second performance. I was sitting in the family

419
00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:22,000
Speaker 1: circle in the seat that my mother bought, and I

420
00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:25,760
Speaker 1: saw the geography of her performance, like when her boyfriend

421
00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:28,200
Speaker 1: was dragged off stage to be tortured by the chief

422
00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:31,800
Speaker 1: of police, and she darts across the stage and bangs

423
00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:34,399
Speaker 1: on the door where he's being held. You saw the

424
00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:37,240
Speaker 1: streak of red velvet when she ran across the stage

425
00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:39,199
Speaker 1: and fell on the door. So it was it was

426
00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:43,240
Speaker 1: very thrilling. But make no mistake, Collus was a vocal

427
00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:48,080
Speaker 1: actress and that's why millions of people love her from

428
00:27:48,080 --> 00:28:02,800
Speaker 1: her recordings who never saw her live. It was she

429
00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:06,879
Speaker 1: was the complete artist, I think, the greatest complete singer

430
00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:12,639
Speaker 1: of that particular century. Amazing, and what is brilliant to

431
00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:15,280
Speaker 1: is thinking about the standing room mine and you and

432
00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:18,840
Speaker 1: other interviews you've talked about the young people that you

433
00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:21,439
Speaker 1: met on the line and the term the opera queens

434
00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:23,320
Speaker 1: that you met on the mind. You say you thaw

435
00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:26,520
Speaker 1: two men kissing for the first time on the standing

436
00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:31,240
Speaker 1: room line for the old met it was wild on

437
00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:34,880
Speaker 1: that line. I mean that line was an initiation for

438
00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:37,480
Speaker 1: you know, sort of by Mitza Boy from Brooklyn to

439
00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:42,840
Speaker 1: a Wonderful World. That I fit right into. But I

440
00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:46,400
Speaker 1: was so shy and reticent and kind of shocked by

441
00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:49,880
Speaker 1: it that I didn't immediately participate in it. But I

442
00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:55,640
Speaker 1: made friends on that line who were crazy like I was,

443
00:28:55,760 --> 00:29:02,080
Speaker 1: but so generous with what they offered in terms of

444
00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:04,440
Speaker 1: their knowledge and experience, And they would tell me what

445
00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:06,760
Speaker 1: to go see. They tell me, you have to see

446
00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:10,240
Speaker 1: millan of and Albanise now, because Being isn't going to

447
00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:13,000
Speaker 1: take them to Lincoln Center, so you better see them now.

448
00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:14,960
Speaker 1: They only have a few years left, you know. And

449
00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:18,480
Speaker 1: so I got to see a couple of generations of singers.

450
00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:21,160
Speaker 1: It was the end of an era for certain people

451
00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:25,200
Speaker 1: and the beginning for other people. Obviously there is a

452
00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:28,800
Speaker 1: whole generation of opera queens who we lost because of

453
00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:30,760
Speaker 1: the eight Crisis, but there was a there was a

454
00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:35,120
Speaker 1: certain kind of culture of the opera queen that that

455
00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:37,920
Speaker 1: feels like a bygone era. And and Awayne caston Bomb

456
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:40,040
Speaker 1: in his book The Queen's Throat talks about the opera

457
00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:42,240
Speaker 1: queen is being sort of a pre Stone Wall kind

458
00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:45,000
Speaker 1: of thing. Obviously there's still opera queens, but it felt

459
00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:47,160
Speaker 1: like there was something very different, you know. I mean,

460
00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:49,760
Speaker 1: I can't imagine someone you know, sort of camping out

461
00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:52,720
Speaker 1: overnight for three days to get Oppertuclars now, you know.

462
00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:55,920
Speaker 1: And there were clubs to you know, Millan of Club

463
00:29:56,040 --> 00:30:00,960
Speaker 1: to Baldi Club. I mean, people gathered together on the

464
00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:03,760
Speaker 1: birthdays of the divas with them, brought them present, and

465
00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:06,560
Speaker 1: it was a whole thing. I wasn't too active in

466
00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:09,320
Speaker 1: that because I was just a little younger than those

467
00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:12,760
Speaker 1: people and very shy. But I know people now who

468
00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:16,640
Speaker 1: have tons of photos and early you know, eight millimeter

469
00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:21,000
Speaker 1: films of those gatherings. Incredible. There's a lot of sort

470
00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:25,000
Speaker 1: of acclimating into what it means to understand divas. And

471
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:26,880
Speaker 1: there for the people who aren't opera fans out there,

472
00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:30,040
Speaker 1: who might you know, follow Mariah or Beyonce and the

473
00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:33,880
Speaker 1: fans are very hardcore, or Mickey Minaj fans are crazy,

474
00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:35,960
Speaker 1: or the you know, the bee Hive, it's like it's

475
00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:38,360
Speaker 1: it's a whole thing, but it is something that like

476
00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:42,480
Speaker 1: I know that they were older queer folks who were like, oh,

477
00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:44,880
Speaker 1: you must listen to this or you must listen to that,

478
00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:47,120
Speaker 1: And there's something that is sort of passed down that

479
00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:50,360
Speaker 1: that feels when I watch interviews of you and I

480
00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:52,120
Speaker 1: hear you talk about the folks that you met on

481
00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:54,200
Speaker 1: the standing room line at the men. I think that

482
00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:57,600
Speaker 1: there's something so beautiful about that because it it made

483
00:30:57,640 --> 00:30:59,520
Speaker 1: you who you are and also sort of laid the

484
00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:03,320
Speaker 1: ground where for something like Lagron Shano. Oh the lure,

485
00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:05,959
Speaker 1: you know, the the upper lure that these people passed

486
00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:08,720
Speaker 1: on to you, and they would invite you over to hear.

487
00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:13,560
Speaker 1: Everyone had big, real to real tape recorders with recordings

488
00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:17,880
Speaker 1: of pirate ID recordings of live performances, not studio recordings,

489
00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:20,040
Speaker 1: and you'd go, you'd stay someone's house two four o'clock

490
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:22,840
Speaker 1: in the morning listening to Leoni seeing de Fraun a

491
00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:25,480
Speaker 1: shot and that the men hadn't even ever had yet,

492
00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:28,760
Speaker 1: you know, call us in Anna Boleno or Medeia or

493
00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:31,520
Speaker 1: you know. These were things we never heard. They weren't

494
00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:35,680
Speaker 1: put out commercially, and it was and people wanted to

495
00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:40,440
Speaker 1: watch you go crazy listening to this stuff. It was

496
00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:43,400
Speaker 1: a huge generous sharing thing, and I ended up doing

497
00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:46,480
Speaker 1: it with people when you know, I got a collection

498
00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:51,440
Speaker 1: of stuff. Yeah, and what a wonderful treasure. Those pirate

499
00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:54,000
Speaker 1: recordings are a lot of them are on YouTube now,

500
00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:57,520
Speaker 1: which is very exciting. Um, you know Leon Teen's debut,

501
00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:01,560
Speaker 1: the pirate recording of Black January or seven nine one

502
00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:04,520
Speaker 1: is on YouTube, and it's it's very different than any

503
00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:08,080
Speaker 1: note that she ever sang. Tempo was very fast, and

504
00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:10,680
Speaker 1: she sang a D instead of a sharp, and it

505
00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:12,600
Speaker 1: was really quite feeling and she holds it for like

506
00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:15,160
Speaker 1: four seconds and it's the excitement in the room is

507
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:28,920
Speaker 1: really incredible. So those pirate recordings are just they're really

508
00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:33,160
Speaker 1: kind of everything. And then they were mostly gay men

509
00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:37,680
Speaker 1: who were obsessed with opera who were making me fire recordings.

510
00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:39,520
Speaker 1: Maybe there were some of you know, people who weren't

511
00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:41,520
Speaker 1: gay man you know, doing this, but you just know

512
00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:45,560
Speaker 1: it's true. Yeah, and it was oh god, they were

513
00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:48,320
Speaker 1: so crazy. There was one guy, Roger Franks, who put

514
00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:51,280
Speaker 1: out really I think only call us stuff and he

515
00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:55,400
Speaker 1: would release it sharp. He would release it intentionally sharp.

516
00:32:55,760 --> 00:32:58,520
Speaker 1: So the record was speeded up a little bit, just

517
00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:02,120
Speaker 1: a halftone, so that that meant that her vibrato would

518
00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:04,880
Speaker 1: be faster, so then knowing could criticize her for having

519
00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:07,920
Speaker 1: a wobble. So then you had to buy a turntable

520
00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:12,200
Speaker 1: that had speed control in order to play his pirate

521
00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:14,880
Speaker 1: recordings of College of course, of course you wanted them all,

522
00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:18,120
Speaker 1: but they played fast, so if you wanted to hear

523
00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:20,920
Speaker 1: them the correct speed, you simply got to turn table

524
00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:24,320
Speaker 1: that had variable pitch, which was slightly more expensive, but

525
00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:27,200
Speaker 1: you did it, and you know, so that's how obsessively

526
00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:30,840
Speaker 1: crazy they were going to fix the flaws of their

527
00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:35,400
Speaker 1: divas on these pirate recordings. There's a lot more divas

528
00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:37,360
Speaker 1: that I want to cover with you, but I want

529
00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:40,160
Speaker 1: to begin to transition into you as a as a

530
00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:43,520
Speaker 1: diva yourself. I was fascinated as I was prepping for this,

531
00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:45,200
Speaker 1: and I've known you for twenty five years, but I

532
00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:48,280
Speaker 1: didn't know that you would get together with some of

533
00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:51,400
Speaker 1: your friends who you wouldn't been on the standing room line,

534
00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:53,160
Speaker 1: and you were saying in falsetto and you would saying,

535
00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:55,000
Speaker 1: you know, sort of in in your late teens and

536
00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:57,440
Speaker 1: early twenties, and you said you had this beautiful like

537
00:33:57,560 --> 00:34:00,680
Speaker 1: extension up into you know, f above high Sea. And

538
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:03,000
Speaker 1: then when you started to train as a singer in

539
00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:05,880
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy and make your debut as a tenor, eventually

540
00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:09,839
Speaker 1: you started studying with Randy Michaelson, who discouraged you from

541
00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:13,239
Speaker 1: musing falsetto. So you stopped musing falsetto for for really

542
00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:17,480
Speaker 1: a decade? Is that right? Yeah? No, unfortunately, it's right.

543
00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:20,200
Speaker 1: I mean he really helped my tenor voice, but that

544
00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:23,359
Speaker 1: was something that I think had no future. I think

545
00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:25,440
Speaker 1: I knew that, but I was kicking around. I never

546
00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:29,319
Speaker 1: had trouble finding shows to be in, but it was

547
00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:36,879
Speaker 1: finally not until an accident in nineteen eighty that I

548
00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:39,680
Speaker 1: wanted to take that to the stage, by which time

549
00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:43,120
Speaker 1: I've done a lot of performing, but never well. A

550
00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:46,400
Speaker 1: little bit of falsetto in my cabaret show imitations for

551
00:34:46,520 --> 00:34:50,320
Speaker 1: not a Scotto and a jazz singer called Betty Changes,

552
00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:53,880
Speaker 1: whom I invented, who scats, sang very high. She she

553
00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:57,400
Speaker 1: couldn't stop scatching. She had to be physically restrained from scatching.

554
00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:00,840
Speaker 1: But a fan, you know, aim to one of my

555
00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:03,560
Speaker 1: cabaret shows and and invited me to a soiree he

556
00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:06,239
Speaker 1: was doing. And I could tell from the names and

557
00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:08,759
Speaker 1: the invitation and everything that this was going to be

558
00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:13,439
Speaker 1: a drag sire. And his name was Mario Villanueva, and

559
00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:17,520
Speaker 1: his cousin Eduardo, the other diva, was going back to

560
00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:21,440
Speaker 1: the Dominican Republic back to med school. So Mario said,

561
00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:23,920
Speaker 1: would you like to do this with me? So I

562
00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:27,400
Speaker 1: thought it's now or never, because by then I was

563
00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:30,200
Speaker 1: at thirty five years old and the voice. I hadn't

564
00:35:30,239 --> 00:35:32,800
Speaker 1: worked the false set of voice in a long time

565
00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:36,279
Speaker 1: except in my cabaret show a little bit, but it

566
00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:39,479
Speaker 1: wasn't anything like what it had been. Decided to work

567
00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:42,920
Speaker 1: it back up. It took a long time and really

568
00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:47,440
Speaker 1: finagling technically and found a pianissimo, which saved me because

569
00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:51,080
Speaker 1: to sing softly and float tones seemed very virtuous I

570
00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:54,320
Speaker 1: but it was at the same time really arrest for me. Vocally.

571
00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:57,040
Speaker 1: I found it a good trill, you know, but it

572
00:35:57,120 --> 00:35:59,600
Speaker 1: was a lot of work to resurrect the voice. But

573
00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:02,160
Speaker 1: I knew I just had to do it. I just

574
00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:05,600
Speaker 1: knew this was going to be what I wanted to do.

575
00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:08,920
Speaker 1: Did you do it on your own? Because I know

576
00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:12,399
Speaker 1: you worked with Randy, but then Randy discouraged the fall

577
00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:15,120
Speaker 1: said no, I did it entirely on my own. I

578
00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:20,719
Speaker 1: stopped studying with Randy, but not out of any It

579
00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:24,320
Speaker 1: just happened, you know that I phased out into teaching myself,

580
00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:29,440
Speaker 1: but I know I developed the range entirely myself, and

581
00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:33,960
Speaker 1: it was really based on the technique I learned from Randy,

582
00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:36,160
Speaker 1: A bell counter technique I learned from Randy, which I

583
00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:39,799
Speaker 1: applied to it. But it was also a kinetic thing

584
00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:41,799
Speaker 1: I could always do when I was younger than I

585
00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:45,400
Speaker 1: just had to tap into the muscles. Wouldn't do everything

586
00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:48,239
Speaker 1: they did when I was sixteen or even twenty, but

587
00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:53,799
Speaker 1: because they don't, but they would do enough so that

588
00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:56,279
Speaker 1: I cranked it back up and could. The first thing

589
00:36:56,320 --> 00:36:58,680
Speaker 1: I ever sang in public was tourn does you know

590
00:36:58,719 --> 00:37:02,520
Speaker 1: in quest edge, which is a tough area. It's hilarious.

591
00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:04,560
Speaker 1: Like the first thing I ever sang in public within

592
00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:10,640
Speaker 1: questa regt in dote, which is an insanely difficult area.

593
00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:20,360
Speaker 1: That was the first thing you ever sang. I didn't

594
00:37:20,400 --> 00:37:24,000
Speaker 1: know that as a soprano. Yeah, as a soprano, Yes,

595
00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:27,560
Speaker 1: that's incredible. So you how long did you practice before

596
00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:30,080
Speaker 1: you could even have the stamina to saying that? Aria?

597
00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:33,000
Speaker 1: I mean, it's like a it's a beast of an aria.

598
00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:35,400
Speaker 1: It took him bout a year to get the voice

599
00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:39,000
Speaker 1: back up and to build the stamina in that register,

600
00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:41,279
Speaker 1: and it took a toll, I think, of course, on

601
00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:44,440
Speaker 1: my tenor voice, but I didn't really care. This is

602
00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:46,680
Speaker 1: really what I wanted to do. I wanted to sing

603
00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:50,000
Speaker 1: this music and play those characters. And I was so

604
00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:53,400
Speaker 1: lucky that I found stage directors, two stage director friends

605
00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:56,440
Speaker 1: of mine who understood something. I didn't know how to

606
00:37:56,520 --> 00:37:58,360
Speaker 1: do this, and they said, well, what you have to

607
00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:02,560
Speaker 1: do is you and Mario to be these fictitious divas,

608
00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:06,839
Speaker 1: and then depending on who these divas are, that's how

609
00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:09,799
Speaker 1: you play your opera roles as these divas. So it

610
00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:12,680
Speaker 1: was a triple layered show. There was me, and then

611
00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:14,799
Speaker 1: there was me as Vera, and then there was Vera

612
00:38:14,960 --> 00:38:18,440
Speaker 1: as Toronto or toss Core Lucci or Traviata or whatever

613
00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:21,160
Speaker 1: I did the way she would do it. What was

614
00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:26,000
Speaker 1: the hallmark of her artistic personality. Well, it was obviously

615
00:38:26,239 --> 00:38:29,759
Speaker 1: like reasoning, dedication, and dementia on stage, but it was

616
00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:35,160
Speaker 1: like Collas, discipline, like Sutherland, accuracy in coloratura. So all

617
00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:38,520
Speaker 1: of my training I didn't know was training from when

618
00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:42,000
Speaker 1: I was fifteen too, when I was thirty five, coalesced

619
00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:45,959
Speaker 1: into this creature and I had to learn that first

620
00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:48,520
Speaker 1: night that I sang in Presto Reja, the first line

621
00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:51,960
Speaker 1: I did with Slavic accent was Verist from the Ukraine.

622
00:38:52,440 --> 00:38:55,360
Speaker 1: So I topped some Milonov who has a Slavic accent

623
00:38:55,440 --> 00:39:01,080
Speaker 1: in Italian, and I saying in Covessa, Jack in Covessa

624
00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:04,319
Speaker 1: instead of in Quest with a Slavic accent. Then I

625
00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:07,520
Speaker 1: suddenly learned that I had to hold for laughs because

626
00:39:07,719 --> 00:39:11,800
Speaker 1: the audience knew what that was and that that was funny.

627
00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:14,439
Speaker 1: And so then I had to paste my way through

628
00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:17,280
Speaker 1: opera arias holding for laughs like a stand up comic,

629
00:39:17,719 --> 00:39:27,960
Speaker 1: which was very surprising but also delightful. And then you

630
00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:31,000
Speaker 1: get to rest a little bit too, and gave me

631
00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:34,359
Speaker 1: a nice rest. Well, I learned to milk for that.

632
00:39:34,600 --> 00:39:38,840
Speaker 1: I remember Martie Nixon phoned me once and said, don't

633
00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:42,239
Speaker 1: start playing it for laughs. The good thing about what

634
00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:45,520
Speaker 1: you do is that you don't seem to know it's funny.

635
00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:48,040
Speaker 1: And so she was right, because you could start to think,

636
00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:50,800
Speaker 1: if I do three takes, I can get six laughs

637
00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:56,360
Speaker 1: out of this moment. But then it just becomes stick

638
00:39:56,760 --> 00:40:00,160
Speaker 1: stick stick, and that you know, when you're parenting an

639
00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:03,520
Speaker 1: art form that's also tribute to an art form, the

640
00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:05,719
Speaker 1: last thing you want is to trash the art form.

641
00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:09,279
Speaker 1: So the quality has to match the art form, not

642
00:40:09,560 --> 00:40:11,799
Speaker 1: make fun of it. I think the beautiful thing is

643
00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:15,120
Speaker 1: And you've spoken often about how Charles let Lem's Theater

644
00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:19,360
Speaker 1: The Ridiculous inspired you to create these very loving spoofs

645
00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:22,560
Speaker 1: of opera. That it was not something that was ever

646
00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:27,480
Speaker 1: mean spirited, or we wouldn't trash divas even though they were.

647
00:40:28,440 --> 00:40:30,839
Speaker 1: There were moments where you know, we made fun of

648
00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:32,919
Speaker 1: but there was always the love there. Can you talk

649
00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:35,799
Speaker 1: a little bit about the intention? I guess I think

650
00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:41,040
Speaker 1: that Charles Laton was my main inspiration, absolutely, undoubtedly definitely.

651
00:40:41,960 --> 00:40:45,200
Speaker 1: When I saw him do Camille, I wanted to do Traviata.

652
00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:47,759
Speaker 1: And that was the first extended scene I did in

653
00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:50,399
Speaker 1: that show where I opened with tour Inductor. I did

654
00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:53,520
Speaker 1: the whole last act of Traviata. That's how the evening closed.

655
00:40:54,080 --> 00:40:58,239
Speaker 1: And I'll tell you when I had Sutherland in the

656
00:40:58,280 --> 00:41:03,880
Speaker 1: audience and Scotto and up purely Milo and Cheryl Millns

657
00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:08,719
Speaker 1: and Jimmy Levine, I was never as nervous as when

658
00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:13,080
Speaker 1: Charles Ludlam came to see us perform, and the Traviato

659
00:41:13,200 --> 00:41:17,000
Speaker 1: was in that program. Because this was the person I

660
00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:23,239
Speaker 1: learned what it was to walk the line between tribute

661
00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:27,080
Speaker 1: and spoof, between drama and comedy, to be able to

662
00:41:27,160 --> 00:41:33,160
Speaker 1: make an audience laugh and then cry. Charles Ludlam absolutely

663
00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:36,759
Speaker 1: was my inspiration from the get go. He wasn't a

664
00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:38,600
Speaker 1: singer at all. It had nothing to do with that.

665
00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:42,239
Speaker 1: It had to do with what he did and the

666
00:41:42,320 --> 00:41:45,080
Speaker 1: line that he walked and the way he walked that line.

667
00:41:45,719 --> 00:41:49,160
Speaker 1: In his Camille, there's a moment where he staggers across

668
00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:52,759
Speaker 1: the stage to a statue of the Virgin when he's

669
00:41:52,840 --> 00:41:57,440
Speaker 1: dying and goes, oh Mary when he arrives there, and

670
00:41:59,640 --> 00:42:02,760
Speaker 1: so you are. You're in tears because he's so frail.

671
00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:05,239
Speaker 1: And then he says that and the whole audience is

672
00:42:05,280 --> 00:42:09,040
Speaker 1: screaming with laughter. Fantastic. We have a little bit of

673
00:42:09,080 --> 00:42:12,840
Speaker 1: a clip. One of my favorite performances of yours is

674
00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:16,480
Speaker 1: your Violetta and Travellata and the Munich recording that we're

675
00:42:16,480 --> 00:42:18,520
Speaker 1: going to hear now, I think for us in nineteen

676
00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:23,600
Speaker 1: eighties s five or eighty seven Munich eighty five. Yeah,

677
00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:41,879
Speaker 1: but I'm utterly obsessed. I'm obsessed with your interpretation of Violetta.

678
00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:44,640
Speaker 1: That performance made me want to thing that aria. I

679
00:42:44,680 --> 00:42:49,080
Speaker 1: still haven't quite gotten it yet, Um there's something. So

680
00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:51,759
Speaker 1: it's obviously just so sublime what you do, but it's

681
00:42:51,800 --> 00:42:55,560
Speaker 1: also hilarious. You know, Violetta has tubercularists and she was dying.

682
00:42:55,960 --> 00:42:57,560
Speaker 1: She was she was a sex worker, and she's in

683
00:42:57,560 --> 00:42:59,319
Speaker 1: love with this man and so she's she's dying in

684
00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:04,279
Speaker 1: this area and it's so touching, but it's it's hilarious.

685
00:43:07,200 --> 00:43:10,160
Speaker 1: What do you when you hear this now in this moment?

686
00:43:10,239 --> 00:43:13,920
Speaker 1: What what do you? What do you think about your brilliance?

687
00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:19,680
Speaker 1: I think I like the London one better. But aside

688
00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:23,439
Speaker 1: from that, it's always that you always love this one.

689
00:43:23,680 --> 00:43:26,239
Speaker 1: But but why do you love the London one more?

690
00:43:27,120 --> 00:43:30,680
Speaker 1: The refinement in the singing? To me is this one's launcheer.

691
00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:33,560
Speaker 1: I was also sick in Munich, so that we were

692
00:43:33,600 --> 00:43:37,759
Speaker 1: on German television and I was sick. We never would

693
00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:40,360
Speaker 1: have known that you were sick, though you don't sound

694
00:43:40,480 --> 00:43:43,120
Speaker 1: sick in that recording. To me, there's just something. It

695
00:43:43,200 --> 00:43:47,400
Speaker 1: was just so funny. This Munich one was hilarious for me.

696
00:43:47,560 --> 00:43:51,800
Speaker 1: The timing of it, well, they were amazing. Also that

697
00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:56,080
Speaker 1: that audience was people in a sweltering tent. That's partly

698
00:43:56,120 --> 00:43:59,239
Speaker 1: how I got dehydrated and got sick because we did

699
00:43:59,239 --> 00:44:02,680
Speaker 1: at night after this was the last night, and they

700
00:44:02,719 --> 00:44:05,359
Speaker 1: gave so much to us back. I mean, they were

701
00:44:05,440 --> 00:44:09,760
Speaker 1: they were phenomenal. But I've got to say Peter Schlauser,

702
00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:13,480
Speaker 1: who was one of my stage directors we workshop this.

703
00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:18,120
Speaker 1: He had been in the actor's studio Traviata, and he

704
00:44:18,320 --> 00:44:22,560
Speaker 1: had this way of working that was so organic. So

705
00:44:22,640 --> 00:44:26,000
Speaker 1: for six months we worked the final act of Traviata,

706
00:44:26,280 --> 00:44:31,399
Speaker 1: starting realistically that I was a guy, I was fatally ill,

707
00:44:31,520 --> 00:44:35,480
Speaker 1: which in those days was beginning to happen, just beginning

708
00:44:35,560 --> 00:44:38,680
Speaker 1: to happen, and we had to work in this very

709
00:44:38,680 --> 00:44:41,560
Speaker 1: realistic way. And Peter came up with the idea of

710
00:44:41,600 --> 00:44:46,000
Speaker 1: a box of mementos that Violetta has when she's dying,

711
00:44:46,040 --> 00:44:49,160
Speaker 1: that she has kept keepsakes of her love affair with Alfredo.

712
00:44:49,280 --> 00:44:52,719
Speaker 1: So handcuffs an all day sucker. You guess what that was.

713
00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:58,160
Speaker 1: I have no idea, Oh, I have ideas. Well, yeah,

714
00:44:58,280 --> 00:45:00,920
Speaker 1: we all have ideas. And there was also a riding

715
00:45:00,960 --> 00:45:03,440
Speaker 1: crop and some and briefs, a pair of you know,

716
00:45:03,920 --> 00:45:08,319
Speaker 1: but but they were sweet nostalgic items and then hilarious

717
00:45:08,320 --> 00:45:10,920
Speaker 1: and each one more outrageous to start with a handkerchief

718
00:45:11,280 --> 00:45:14,600
Speaker 1: and then you know, and built to the underwear. I

719
00:45:14,640 --> 00:45:16,640
Speaker 1: never knew that you work shopped that through the actor

720
00:45:16,760 --> 00:45:20,719
Speaker 1: and actors studio process, which would be character private moments

721
00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:25,040
Speaker 1: and animal work sometimes and since memory and all of

722
00:45:25,080 --> 00:45:29,279
Speaker 1: that stuff, that you did that for your Violetta. Yeah, yeah,

723
00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:31,560
Speaker 1: I love it. What I got out of it also

724
00:45:31,640 --> 00:45:35,319
Speaker 1: was there are things in the phrasing just who she

725
00:45:35,440 --> 00:45:39,279
Speaker 1: really was. I got so deep into someone going through

726
00:45:39,320 --> 00:45:41,399
Speaker 1: that and who she really was. When I would get

727
00:45:41,440 --> 00:45:43,920
Speaker 1: to sing a line like when she's telling Alfredo to

728
00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:47,440
Speaker 1: marry someone else and you know, keep this keepsake portrait

729
00:45:47,520 --> 00:45:50,640
Speaker 1: of me and go marry a sweet young virgin, and

730
00:45:50,719 --> 00:45:58,640
Speaker 1: she sings sound apoty Gina. There there's the pure virgin

731
00:45:58,760 --> 00:46:01,360
Speaker 1: for you somewhere, and I would get to say, no,

732
00:46:01,520 --> 00:46:08,400
Speaker 1: bootyg because you put an edge on the word virtue,

733
00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:17,600
Speaker 1: because of course she's not. Yeah she's not. So we

734
00:46:17,800 --> 00:46:22,279
Speaker 1: dug so deep that it did actually affect the interpretation

735
00:46:22,360 --> 00:46:25,840
Speaker 1: of the Italian libretto as well as coloring the singing.

736
00:46:26,120 --> 00:46:28,960
Speaker 1: And I was not afraid, you know, to twist the voice,

737
00:46:29,040 --> 00:46:31,200
Speaker 1: or Peter even said to me once it doesn't have

738
00:46:31,280 --> 00:46:33,879
Speaker 1: to be ugly to be expressive, my dear, But I

739
00:46:33,920 --> 00:46:36,319
Speaker 1: wasn't afraid to twist the voice like that to make

740
00:46:36,360 --> 00:46:39,640
Speaker 1: a point that would be something funny in the middle

741
00:46:39,680 --> 00:46:50,080
Speaker 1: of when everybody's already in tears because she's dying. Oh

742
00:46:50,120 --> 00:46:52,440
Speaker 1: my god, it's so brilliant. I think, you know, you

743
00:46:52,560 --> 00:46:56,719
Speaker 1: got really incredible ves from so many different places, and

744
00:46:56,960 --> 00:47:00,239
Speaker 1: I called out a few of your reviews here. The

745
00:47:00,320 --> 00:47:04,120
Speaker 1: New York Times in nineteen seven wrote one need not

746
00:47:04,280 --> 00:47:07,440
Speaker 1: be a connoisseur of opera to enjoy the antique musical

747
00:47:07,480 --> 00:47:10,640
Speaker 1: comedy of La Grande Shanna Opera Company, the all male

748
00:47:10,680 --> 00:47:14,319
Speaker 1: operatic Troupe. At the same time, these artificial sopranos have

749
00:47:14,360 --> 00:47:19,680
Speaker 1: a surprising resilience and intensity. Along with abrasive color tour shrieking,

750
00:47:20,080 --> 00:47:24,400
Speaker 1: there are fleeting moments of genuine lyric beauty. The company's

751
00:47:24,480 --> 00:47:28,200
Speaker 1: understanding of operated conventions and the singer's allusions to more

752
00:47:28,560 --> 00:47:32,080
Speaker 1: than half a century of real divas gives the fun

753
00:47:32,840 --> 00:47:36,759
Speaker 1: historical dimension that will appeal especially to opera files. La

754
00:47:36,800 --> 00:47:39,720
Speaker 1: Grande Shanna Opera Company reminds us that beneath the pump

755
00:47:39,800 --> 00:47:44,080
Speaker 1: and magnificence of opera at its most serious and spectacular,

756
00:47:44,440 --> 00:47:49,480
Speaker 1: there runs a deep streak of silliness. What I love

757
00:47:49,520 --> 00:47:53,000
Speaker 1: about that review is that really echoes so much of

758
00:47:53,000 --> 00:47:55,919
Speaker 1: what we've been talking about. The education that you got

759
00:47:55,960 --> 00:47:58,799
Speaker 1: in the standing room line watching all of these productions

760
00:47:58,800 --> 00:48:00,920
Speaker 1: and the Old House, the New House in the sixties,

761
00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:03,480
Speaker 1: sort of the education you lot from the queens that

762
00:48:03,520 --> 00:48:07,400
Speaker 1: you met. There's such a depth of understanding that went

763
00:48:07,480 --> 00:48:10,279
Speaker 1: into what La gros Shana did. And I think it's

764
00:48:10,320 --> 00:48:13,400
Speaker 1: not a mistake that La gros Shana led you to

765
00:48:13,680 --> 00:48:17,560
Speaker 1: so many other aspects of working in the and quote

766
00:48:17,600 --> 00:48:20,560
Speaker 1: unquote the legitimate opera world. But what what would you

767
00:48:21,080 --> 00:48:23,640
Speaker 1: like to say to all of that? Yeah, no, that's

768
00:48:23,719 --> 00:48:27,560
Speaker 1: I always tell people. It was the most circuitous route

769
00:48:27,560 --> 00:48:31,400
Speaker 1: to the mainstream I could possibly think of two. You know,

770
00:48:31,440 --> 00:48:33,520
Speaker 1: spend all that time on the standing room line with

771
00:48:33,880 --> 00:48:38,320
Speaker 1: all these wonderful weirdos, including myself weird to be singing

772
00:48:38,360 --> 00:48:41,520
Speaker 1: falsetto when my friends lofts, you know, when I was

773
00:48:41,600 --> 00:48:45,879
Speaker 1: twenty one and uh, to be in all these off off, off,

774
00:48:45,920 --> 00:48:49,719
Speaker 1: off off appropriate shows in cambaret, and then to put

775
00:48:49,760 --> 00:48:55,160
Speaker 1: on address and sing turned ut and end up at

776
00:48:55,200 --> 00:49:00,160
Speaker 1: the met on the radio broadcasting from the met and

777
00:49:00,280 --> 00:49:04,759
Speaker 1: writing for OUP News and singing. I mean, one of

778
00:49:04,800 --> 00:49:07,600
Speaker 1: the most astonishing moments of the whole ground chain of

779
00:49:07,640 --> 00:49:11,840
Speaker 1: thing was in Berlin when the night that we opened

780
00:49:11,840 --> 00:49:14,200
Speaker 1: for the first time in Berlin, I sang the Madazine

781
00:49:14,200 --> 00:49:18,759
Speaker 1: from Luccia in that program, and this guy from the

782
00:49:18,760 --> 00:49:21,279
Speaker 1: theater came up to me and he said, you know

783
00:49:21,360 --> 00:49:23,799
Speaker 1: that you just sang the Madazine from Lucia on the

784
00:49:23,840 --> 00:49:30,160
Speaker 1: same stage where Collis sang the famous Berlin Lucia with Caryon. Well,

785
00:49:30,160 --> 00:49:32,839
Speaker 1: thank god I didn't know that before the show. But yes,

786
00:49:32,960 --> 00:49:35,560
Speaker 1: you know things like that where you think, how did

787
00:49:35,600 --> 00:49:39,320
Speaker 1: I end up getting here? I was given the middle

788
00:49:39,360 --> 00:49:41,160
Speaker 1: of the city in V spot and I thought, oh,

789
00:49:41,200 --> 00:49:45,000
Speaker 1: a Jewish drag queen being given the medal of the

790
00:49:45,080 --> 00:49:50,240
Speaker 1: city in V spot in Germany. You know, after performance,

791
00:49:50,719 --> 00:49:53,320
Speaker 1: I mean, these things that you kind of can't believe.

792
00:49:53,480 --> 00:49:58,000
Speaker 1: You just you know, you sort of not your head

793
00:49:58,040 --> 00:50:00,520
Speaker 1: and go what is this? Me? Is this really happening?

794
00:50:00,680 --> 00:50:09,840
Speaker 1: You know? After tiny break, we've got more for you.

795
00:50:19,960 --> 00:50:22,960
Speaker 1: Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to the first

796
00:50:23,000 --> 00:50:26,399
Speaker 1: of the very little bit Bored Domestic Lesson. We are

797
00:50:26,560 --> 00:50:29,440
Speaker 1: back picking up where we left of the taking of

798
00:50:29,520 --> 00:50:32,960
Speaker 1: photographs and strictly forbidden, unless, of course, they are extremely

799
00:50:33,040 --> 00:50:40,520
Speaker 1: flatter speaking, if you're a Lucia, that moment in the

800
00:50:40,520 --> 00:50:54,480
Speaker 1: Mad scenement, um oh, that section, that section is one

801
00:50:54,520 --> 00:50:57,720
Speaker 1: of my favorite moments in all of opera, that music,

802
00:50:57,760 --> 00:50:59,480
Speaker 1: and I fell in love with it. I happened to

803
00:50:59,480 --> 00:51:02,759
Speaker 1: be at a gran Shana performance and it's on YouTube

804
00:51:03,000 --> 00:51:05,600
Speaker 1: and there's a moment Lucia has has lost her mind.

805
00:51:05,680 --> 00:51:08,440
Speaker 1: This is the Mad scene. She has murdered her husband

806
00:51:08,560 --> 00:51:10,560
Speaker 1: on the day that they get married, and she had

807
00:51:11,400 --> 00:51:14,319
Speaker 1: she she breaks down and it's quite something. But in

808
00:51:14,600 --> 00:51:18,799
Speaker 1: lagron Shana's performance there you use a dumming that is

809
00:51:19,760 --> 00:51:22,640
Speaker 1: your your murdered husband. In that moment of that that

810
00:51:22,680 --> 00:51:27,399
Speaker 1: particular musical moment, you slow dance with the dumming yea,

811
00:51:32,680 --> 00:51:37,800
Speaker 1: and it is hilarious. But it is actually really sublime.

812
00:51:37,840 --> 00:51:39,640
Speaker 1: It's really one of the most beautiful things I've ever seen.

813
00:51:39,680 --> 00:51:43,319
Speaker 1: And I'm crazy, maybe, but it is so beautiful. Can

814
00:51:43,360 --> 00:51:45,640
Speaker 1: you talk a little bit about that? But there was

815
00:51:45,680 --> 00:51:48,320
Speaker 1: a logic to it. I mean, we thought, of course,

816
00:51:48,360 --> 00:51:51,360
Speaker 1: we thought it would be funny if she is forced

817
00:51:51,400 --> 00:51:53,160
Speaker 1: to marry a man she doesn't want to marry, so

818
00:51:53,239 --> 00:51:55,960
Speaker 1: she goes crazy and steps and but you never see that.

819
00:51:56,560 --> 00:51:58,880
Speaker 1: We thought it would be amusing if she brought the

820
00:51:58,920 --> 00:52:03,040
Speaker 1: dead body to the wedding party. So I had to

821
00:52:03,080 --> 00:52:06,400
Speaker 1: go to one of these adult stores in the West

822
00:52:06,520 --> 00:52:10,279
Speaker 1: Village in Manhattan and buy an inflatable doll, which we

823
00:52:10,600 --> 00:52:13,680
Speaker 1: then stuffed with fiber phil. At first we used to

824
00:52:13,680 --> 00:52:15,640
Speaker 1: blow it up and it kept deflating, so then we

825
00:52:15,680 --> 00:52:18,440
Speaker 1: stuffed with fiber fille, dressed it in a kill. Did

826
00:52:18,440 --> 00:52:21,440
Speaker 1: it deflated a performance or just in rehearsal was it

827
00:52:21,520 --> 00:52:24,359
Speaker 1: was slowly deflated during performances, So then we thought, oh,

828
00:52:24,400 --> 00:52:27,319
Speaker 1: we've got to stuff it and dressed it in a

829
00:52:27,480 --> 00:52:30,799
Speaker 1: night shirt and it killed because it was Scottish um.

830
00:52:31,880 --> 00:52:35,960
Speaker 1: But the thing is that in the plot, Lucia imagines

831
00:52:36,120 --> 00:52:39,000
Speaker 1: that she's marrying the guy she did love, the one

832
00:52:39,040 --> 00:52:43,240
Speaker 1: she wanted to marry. It gotta go, So that theme

833
00:52:44,120 --> 00:52:47,400
Speaker 1: is a recollection of their love duet from a previous act,

834
00:52:48,080 --> 00:52:51,120
Speaker 1: And when it came time to sing that theme, she

835
00:52:51,360 --> 00:52:56,239
Speaker 1: steeped in the fantasy that she's really marrying Edgardo, and

836
00:52:56,280 --> 00:52:59,920
Speaker 1: I thought, well, there's the body. At that point was

837
00:53:00,040 --> 00:53:01,440
Speaker 1: lying on the floor in front of me and I

838
00:53:01,560 --> 00:53:05,799
Speaker 1: just picked it up to just waltz with it while

839
00:53:05,840 --> 00:53:08,640
Speaker 1: I sang that, because that was like the height of

840
00:53:08,680 --> 00:53:13,880
Speaker 1: her fantasy of what she when crazy over being forced

841
00:53:13,920 --> 00:53:18,640
Speaker 1: into a forced marriage, which felt to me bizarre, grotesque,

842
00:53:18,760 --> 00:53:21,000
Speaker 1: and yet sweet at the same time. So I'm so

843
00:53:21,040 --> 00:53:26,800
Speaker 1: happy to hear that instruct here the same way I'm

844
00:53:26,840 --> 00:53:29,080
Speaker 1: I'm really obsessed with it. I rewatched it, and I

845
00:53:29,200 --> 00:53:32,040
Speaker 1: just love hearing the way you describe it, because there

846
00:53:32,239 --> 00:53:45,000
Speaker 1: is that that piece of the longing for Duardo with

847
00:53:45,120 --> 00:53:47,480
Speaker 1: it without the flute, and is that just piano in

848
00:53:47,560 --> 00:53:50,400
Speaker 1: your version. That was our first Lucci ever, that was

849
00:53:51,600 --> 00:53:54,799
Speaker 1: and uh, we didn't have a flutist, so we we

850
00:53:55,000 --> 00:54:01,400
Speaker 1: had a synthesizer that did flute. But the way that

851
00:54:02,040 --> 00:54:04,520
Speaker 1: the flute plays a melody and she sort of hears

852
00:54:04,560 --> 00:54:07,560
Speaker 1: it and it becomes the signifier of her insanity and

853
00:54:07,600 --> 00:54:10,879
Speaker 1: the voices that she's hearing, and it's just it's it's

854
00:54:10,920 --> 00:54:20,200
Speaker 1: really sublime. It was fun to do. But when you

855
00:54:20,239 --> 00:54:21,880
Speaker 1: hear the whole foot up the gout, of course you

856
00:54:21,920 --> 00:54:24,800
Speaker 1: know this. But I do. I drink from a cup

857
00:54:24,920 --> 00:54:27,480
Speaker 1: that says Joan, and then I do subsillance ornaments and

858
00:54:27,480 --> 00:54:29,239
Speaker 1: then I drink from when that says Maria, and I

859
00:54:29,280 --> 00:54:32,600
Speaker 1: do call us those ornaments. So the conescende went nuts

860
00:54:32,600 --> 00:54:35,520
Speaker 1: because they could recognize all of this and that was

861
00:54:35,560 --> 00:54:38,319
Speaker 1: always fun to do. It just was so great that

862
00:54:38,400 --> 00:54:41,960
Speaker 1: there was an audience alive at that point, so steeped

863
00:54:42,000 --> 00:54:45,239
Speaker 1: in this art form and culture in general that they

864
00:54:45,400 --> 00:54:47,520
Speaker 1: just got it on all the levels of the comedy,

865
00:54:47,560 --> 00:54:52,279
Speaker 1: the drama, the spoof, the tribute. Yes, speaking ornaments, there's

866
00:54:52,280 --> 00:54:54,600
Speaker 1: a beautiful a moment that that that you share it

867
00:54:54,600 --> 00:54:57,000
Speaker 1: with us that I would love to play. Now, your

868
00:54:57,080 --> 00:55:26,840
Speaker 1: musicianship is really wonderful. Oh can we talk about your penism?

869
00:55:27,040 --> 00:55:30,560
Speaker 1: Is that those uninitiated it's very soft singing, very quiet singing.

870
00:55:30,600 --> 00:55:34,920
Speaker 1: And was that something in that year that you you know, recreated,

871
00:55:35,000 --> 00:55:37,959
Speaker 1: you know, reconstituted your falsetto. Did that the peni semo

872
00:55:38,080 --> 00:55:41,840
Speaker 1: come right away? What was the evolution because there's a

873
00:55:41,920 --> 00:55:43,560
Speaker 1: lot of people don't have that now, we don't hear

874
00:55:43,560 --> 00:55:45,800
Speaker 1: a lot of this kind of singing anymore. When I

875
00:55:45,880 --> 00:55:49,480
Speaker 1: started to singing in head voice in Falsetto, it was

876
00:55:49,520 --> 00:55:52,520
Speaker 1: a very tight production to make the piano. I didn't

877
00:55:52,560 --> 00:55:54,640
Speaker 1: know what I was doing and it was very locked.

878
00:55:55,200 --> 00:55:58,160
Speaker 1: And then when I had to resurrect the falsetto voice

879
00:55:58,160 --> 00:56:02,279
Speaker 1: for grand China. I was acquainted by that time in

880
00:56:03,120 --> 00:56:06,520
Speaker 1: what marking was, marking being the technical term for singing

881
00:56:06,560 --> 00:56:09,000
Speaker 1: softly when you have to rehearse a lot and repeat

882
00:56:09,040 --> 00:56:12,040
Speaker 1: a lot of stuff. And so at some point I

883
00:56:12,080 --> 00:56:15,400
Speaker 1: was going up and I didn't want to go up

884
00:56:15,440 --> 00:56:19,400
Speaker 1: full voice, and I threw it into an isolated head tone,

885
00:56:21,080 --> 00:56:24,640
Speaker 1: leaving out the heft the bottom of the voice, and

886
00:56:24,640 --> 00:56:27,480
Speaker 1: I thought, oh, well, that feels like a freer way

887
00:56:27,480 --> 00:56:31,200
Speaker 1: to do something soft. So I started to work that,

888
00:56:31,800 --> 00:56:33,520
Speaker 1: and I found what I could do with it, what

889
00:56:33,600 --> 00:56:35,880
Speaker 1: I couldn't do with it. It got I think better

890
00:56:36,040 --> 00:56:38,120
Speaker 1: over the years that could end it to a high

891
00:56:38,160 --> 00:56:40,920
Speaker 1: a piano that you just played. I was sixty by

892
00:56:41,000 --> 00:56:44,240
Speaker 1: that time. I found a pocket I could feed breath

893
00:56:44,280 --> 00:56:47,920
Speaker 1: into a very high forringial point on the vocal cords,

894
00:56:47,920 --> 00:56:50,040
Speaker 1: which is a very slender point. So it produced a

895
00:56:50,160 --> 00:56:53,640
Speaker 1: very slender, shimmery sound. Uh. And it was a great

896
00:56:53,680 --> 00:56:57,440
Speaker 1: way to rest and at the same time impress people.

897
00:56:57,560 --> 00:57:01,600
Speaker 1: And I could hold a piano note for seconds if

898
00:57:01,600 --> 00:57:04,320
Speaker 1: i've you know, just to be silly, but at the

899
00:57:04,360 --> 00:57:07,040
Speaker 1: same time virtuosic, because you had to kind of mind

900
00:57:07,120 --> 00:57:16,000
Speaker 1: what was special about what you could do. I didn't

901
00:57:16,040 --> 00:57:18,760
Speaker 1: have very much vibrato when I started singing in falsetto,

902
00:57:18,880 --> 00:57:22,040
Speaker 1: much to my disappointment, and so I sounded more like

903
00:57:22,080 --> 00:57:25,840
Speaker 1: a Slavic sound where they they're more hard and straight toned,

904
00:57:26,160 --> 00:57:30,480
Speaker 1: the Russian kind of sound. Eastern European, really, so I

905
00:57:30,520 --> 00:57:33,439
Speaker 1: had to be Eastern European. Over the years, I tried

906
00:57:33,480 --> 00:57:37,400
Speaker 1: to make her sound warmer, to increase the vibrato and

907
00:57:37,480 --> 00:57:46,880
Speaker 1: to warm up the sound for expression and beauty, and

908
00:57:47,000 --> 00:57:50,200
Speaker 1: she morphed also from a matron lee character with body

909
00:57:50,240 --> 00:57:52,640
Speaker 1: pads when I first started to play her to someone

910
00:57:52,680 --> 00:57:57,000
Speaker 1: more slim and kind of well glamorous. Maybe it's an overstatement,

911
00:57:57,040 --> 00:58:13,880
Speaker 1: but glamorous esque so much. Um, oh my goodness. I

912
00:58:14,400 --> 00:58:16,880
Speaker 1: you know, I'm a student of the voice. And there's

913
00:58:17,640 --> 00:58:20,960
Speaker 1: the declining diva, right, It's really rare that a diva

914
00:58:21,000 --> 00:58:23,880
Speaker 1: doesn't have some sort of decline, right, And and the

915
00:58:24,040 --> 00:58:26,920
Speaker 1: vocal longevity is something that is a thing and that

916
00:58:27,080 --> 00:58:30,120
Speaker 1: some singers have the most singers don't have. If there

917
00:58:30,200 --> 00:58:33,280
Speaker 1: is a secret to vocal longevity, what would you think

918
00:58:33,360 --> 00:58:36,240
Speaker 1: that that might be. I think I could I could

919
00:58:36,320 --> 00:58:40,720
Speaker 1: definitely talk about what would cause vocal non longevity. The

920
00:58:40,800 --> 00:58:46,720
Speaker 1: vocal longevity is partly genetics, partly jeans and health and luck,

921
00:58:47,160 --> 00:58:51,240
Speaker 1: and then technique. And I think it's very important not

922
00:58:51,360 --> 00:58:54,040
Speaker 1: to oversing. I did. I had to. We had to

923
00:58:54,080 --> 00:58:58,080
Speaker 1: do five six shows a week of opera, which is ridiculous.

924
00:58:58,320 --> 00:59:01,200
Speaker 1: Just so folks know when the med and most opera

925
00:59:01,240 --> 00:59:03,640
Speaker 1: houses you'll singer will sing and then have two or

926
00:59:03,680 --> 00:59:06,160
Speaker 1: three days off after they sing, right, But for the

927
00:59:06,240 --> 00:59:08,520
Speaker 1: grand Sana and the way that you had to sort

928
00:59:08,520 --> 00:59:10,680
Speaker 1: of make money that you had to sing many back

929
00:59:10,720 --> 00:59:14,680
Speaker 1: to back shows touring the world, which is insane. Um, yeah,

930
00:59:14,800 --> 00:59:17,280
Speaker 1: blassid Do Domingo was on the Tonight Show talking to

931
00:59:17,400 --> 00:59:20,600
Speaker 1: Johnny Carson saying, oh, no, we no are sing more

932
00:59:20,640 --> 00:59:23,480
Speaker 1: than blind. So we to John you know so I

933
00:59:23,520 --> 00:59:26,880
Speaker 1: mean I thought, yeah, But a way to shrede your

934
00:59:26,960 --> 00:59:31,480
Speaker 1: voice is to overbook yourself, to fly too much, which

935
00:59:31,560 --> 00:59:33,880
Speaker 1: is is a problem these days. Singers used to have

936
00:59:33,960 --> 00:59:36,840
Speaker 1: to travel by train or by boat, so they had

937
00:59:36,880 --> 00:59:40,840
Speaker 1: these long enforced breaks. What is it about flying that

938
00:59:40,840 --> 00:59:43,400
Speaker 1: that is that can be bad and detrimental for the voice.

939
00:59:44,080 --> 00:59:47,560
Speaker 1: I think it's partly the de hydration and the dryness

940
00:59:47,600 --> 00:59:50,560
Speaker 1: in the air in the planes. I think the jet

941
00:59:50,640 --> 00:59:55,280
Speaker 1: lag time difference thing can be very fatiguing. And you

942
00:59:55,320 --> 00:59:58,000
Speaker 1: also have to be smart about what you sing in

943
00:59:58,160 --> 01:00:01,080
Speaker 1: shifts that you make, and so that's something you also

944
01:00:01,160 --> 01:00:03,280
Speaker 1: have to do. You have to program for your voice

945
01:00:03,640 --> 01:00:06,360
Speaker 1: for the time that it is, not for how it

946
01:00:06,480 --> 01:00:10,000
Speaker 1: was ten fifteen years ago. I've already tried that with video.

947
01:00:10,040 --> 01:00:12,880
Speaker 1: La Jamaal his big success at the med in the seventies.

948
01:00:12,880 --> 01:00:15,240
Speaker 1: He tried to do it in the nineties and and

949
01:00:15,240 --> 01:00:18,680
Speaker 1: and couldn't. Of course he couldn't. You know, singers are

950
01:00:18,760 --> 01:00:22,960
Speaker 1: driven by ambition now, I think more than ever social

951
01:00:23,000 --> 01:00:29,240
Speaker 1: media networking, driven to sing things that they really shouldn't sing.

952
01:00:29,360 --> 01:00:32,520
Speaker 1: And it's disrespectful for the work in a way, also

953
01:00:32,560 --> 01:00:35,400
Speaker 1: because you're doing an insufficient job and you're doing a

954
01:00:35,440 --> 01:00:41,720
Speaker 1: disservice to your instrument. Frankly um Scotto's debut season at

955
01:00:41,720 --> 01:00:46,400
Speaker 1: the at the Mata Blues. She sang Butterfly, I believe

956
01:00:46,440 --> 01:00:49,320
Speaker 1: with her debut, but she also was the program to sing.

957
01:00:49,560 --> 01:00:54,560
Speaker 1: I think Luccia and something else crazy Elia, Yeah, Luccia

958
01:00:54,720 --> 01:00:59,680
Speaker 1: and and Eliza two ton sties. Yeah. The debut Luccia

959
01:00:59,800 --> 01:01:04,720
Speaker 1: was daggering, was Abel conto artist in a Puccini opera,

960
01:01:04,880 --> 01:01:09,640
Speaker 1: so one you know, beautifully trained in one kind of field,

961
01:01:10,120 --> 01:01:14,120
Speaker 1: coming and bringing that to guts her bigger voiced role.

962
01:01:14,320 --> 01:01:16,440
Speaker 1: So we all felt, well, she can't possibly sing Lucia.

963
01:01:16,480 --> 01:01:18,840
Speaker 1: She's going to cancel it because you can't sing Butterfly

964
01:01:19,000 --> 01:01:21,920
Speaker 1: like that, and then seeing Luccia two weeks later, but

965
01:01:22,000 --> 01:01:24,560
Speaker 1: she did, and she sang Luccio with a different sound,

966
01:01:24,960 --> 01:01:28,120
Speaker 1: more head tones, lighter, more what we were just discussing

967
01:01:28,160 --> 01:01:38,560
Speaker 1: with piano, and it was fantastic because the orchestra is

968
01:01:38,680 --> 01:01:42,320
Speaker 1: much lighter in Luccia, and the acting was phenomenal. She

969
01:01:42,440 --> 01:01:45,600
Speaker 1: was a very cunning artist who made a huge career

970
01:01:46,040 --> 01:01:51,040
Speaker 1: with an not incredibly exceptional instrument and that I admire

971
01:01:51,120 --> 01:01:54,680
Speaker 1: more than anything. Anybody can be born with a pretty voice,

972
01:01:55,080 --> 01:01:58,960
Speaker 1: but to make your voice into something more than it

973
01:01:59,160 --> 01:02:04,360
Speaker 1: is through your artistry is incredible. And she created fantastic

974
01:02:04,600 --> 01:02:09,040
Speaker 1: illusions of sound that way and in theater that was

975
01:02:09,080 --> 01:02:21,320
Speaker 1: just phenomenal. It's important to note that of all the

976
01:02:21,480 --> 01:02:24,240
Speaker 1: diva's opera queens, have you know our number one diva?

977
01:02:24,760 --> 01:02:27,120
Speaker 1: And I think it's safe to say that we're not

978
01:02:27,200 --> 01:02:30,760
Speaker 1: a Scotto would be yours am, I what I think

979
01:02:30,800 --> 01:02:33,240
Speaker 1: that we're not to really is mine. I mean, there

980
01:02:33,240 --> 01:02:36,040
Speaker 1: are there are other people I have loved, like Sutherland

981
01:02:36,080 --> 01:02:42,320
Speaker 1: and Collus and reason Nick, but Scotto was We have

982
01:02:42,440 --> 01:02:45,080
Speaker 1: sort of a what's the word? You know? We love

983
01:02:45,080 --> 01:02:48,000
Speaker 1: each other. I love her. She loves me because she

984
01:02:48,040 --> 01:02:50,479
Speaker 1: knows that when I was Vera, I was partly her,

985
01:02:51,000 --> 01:02:53,440
Speaker 1: and that it was a tribute to her her work.

986
01:02:54,040 --> 01:02:57,760
Speaker 1: And what Scotto did was she illuminated roles for me.

987
01:02:57,800 --> 01:03:00,600
Speaker 1: I would see a role like Butterfly scene many times

988
01:03:00,600 --> 01:03:03,920
Speaker 1: like I've never seen it before. And that was her gift.

989
01:03:04,080 --> 01:03:05,960
Speaker 1: She made you feel like you were seeing an opera

990
01:03:06,240 --> 01:03:10,040
Speaker 1: for the first time when you've seen it many many times.

991
01:03:10,320 --> 01:03:12,640
Speaker 1: She illuminated parts of it that you never thought were

992
01:03:12,680 --> 01:03:17,760
Speaker 1: important before. And College said that ability to rend a.

993
01:03:17,800 --> 01:03:20,480
Speaker 1: Scotto was also a very huge fan of La Grande

994
01:03:20,520 --> 01:03:22,720
Speaker 1: Shana and and went to many performances. And there is

995
01:03:22,720 --> 01:03:26,400
Speaker 1: a brilliant story that I did not know about you

996
01:03:26,560 --> 01:03:30,400
Speaker 1: going to see Nada later in her career. Can you

997
01:03:30,480 --> 01:03:33,240
Speaker 1: please tell us this story? It is It's kind of

998
01:03:33,240 --> 01:03:36,560
Speaker 1: the like when of the high points of my entire life,

999
01:03:37,360 --> 01:03:40,240
Speaker 1: I saw Scotto. I don't know how many times, but

1000
01:03:40,320 --> 01:03:42,880
Speaker 1: I never almost never talked to her. At a party.

1001
01:03:43,240 --> 01:03:45,520
Speaker 1: I would talk to her, but I mean I really

1002
01:03:45,600 --> 01:03:49,000
Speaker 1: was not close with her until she came and saw

1003
01:03:49,040 --> 01:03:53,120
Speaker 1: my performance. And she was in very late career. It

1004
01:03:53,160 --> 01:03:57,560
Speaker 1: was like two thousand one, I think, or two thousand two,

1005
01:03:57,920 --> 01:04:01,160
Speaker 1: and she was singing a very unlikely role Clyte nest Or,

1006
01:04:01,160 --> 01:04:07,479
Speaker 1: the evil mother in Strauss's Electra at Baltimore Opera and

1007
01:04:07,640 --> 01:04:11,440
Speaker 1: it was a real late career diva star turn, you know.

1008
01:04:11,560 --> 01:04:13,800
Speaker 1: So the whole thing was built around the fact that

1009
01:04:13,840 --> 01:04:19,160
Speaker 1: they got Scotto in Baltimore and it was and she

1010
01:04:19,280 --> 01:04:22,960
Speaker 1: was amazing, And afterwards I kind of cued up just

1011
01:04:23,000 --> 01:04:24,920
Speaker 1: to go backstage because I've driven all the way down

1012
01:04:25,000 --> 01:04:28,320
Speaker 1: to Baltimore to see her, just to say I was there.

1013
01:04:28,800 --> 01:04:31,000
Speaker 1: And I thought, she's not going to remember me, because

1014
01:04:31,080 --> 01:04:33,080
Speaker 1: you know, she saw me perform, but I looked like

1015
01:04:33,240 --> 01:04:36,560
Speaker 1: Vera and I interviewed her for Opera News and we

1016
01:04:36,640 --> 01:04:39,160
Speaker 1: talked on the phone, but you know, she won't remember me.

1017
01:04:39,440 --> 01:04:41,080
Speaker 1: So I was online to see her and her son,

1018
01:04:41,160 --> 01:04:44,439
Speaker 1: Felippo came out and he said, oh, are you here,

1019
01:04:45,000 --> 01:04:47,440
Speaker 1: and I said, yeah, I just wanted to say hi

1020
01:04:47,480 --> 01:04:49,560
Speaker 1: to her. You know, do you think she'll remember me,

1021
01:04:49,600 --> 01:04:52,320
Speaker 1: and he said, he kidding me. Anyone who comes into

1022
01:04:52,360 --> 01:04:54,600
Speaker 1: our house has to watch your video of Tasca. Just

1023
01:04:54,640 --> 01:04:57,360
Speaker 1: wait here a moment, you know. So then he ushered

1024
01:04:57,400 --> 01:05:02,400
Speaker 1: me in and in the perform and as Critemnestra, Renata

1025
01:05:02,520 --> 01:05:07,040
Speaker 1: had worn this big red French twist wig, which was

1026
01:05:07,160 --> 01:05:11,120
Speaker 1: exactly the same as the wig that I would wear

1027
01:05:11,120 --> 01:05:15,280
Speaker 1: on stage as Matt and Vera. And I'm walking down

1028
01:05:15,280 --> 01:05:17,120
Speaker 1: the hole to her dressing room and the door to

1029
01:05:17,160 --> 01:05:19,840
Speaker 1: the dressing room opens and Renata comes out and she

1030
01:05:19,960 --> 01:05:26,000
Speaker 1: points to me. She says, today I did you m hmm.

1031
01:05:27,520 --> 01:05:29,160
Speaker 1: And it was just like you know, it was having

1032
01:05:29,200 --> 01:05:33,280
Speaker 1: your the person whose work you worshiped more than anyone,

1033
01:05:34,160 --> 01:05:37,800
Speaker 1: sort of I don't know, I can't even verbalize it.

1034
01:05:37,800 --> 01:05:41,840
Speaker 1: It was affirmation of I get what you're about, you

1035
01:05:41,880 --> 01:05:45,640
Speaker 1: get what I'm about, And it was an amazing thing.

1036
01:05:45,720 --> 01:05:47,680
Speaker 1: There she was wearing that red wig and she would

1037
01:05:47,680 --> 01:05:52,360
Speaker 1: look like you right. It was just I remember once

1038
01:05:52,400 --> 01:05:54,680
Speaker 1: I was at I was at a master class she

1039
01:05:54,760 --> 01:05:59,240
Speaker 1: gave for Cheryl Milne's Voice Foundation, and I had to

1040
01:05:59,320 --> 01:06:01,760
Speaker 1: leave to go to Grand Shane to rehearsal, and she

1041
01:06:01,840 --> 01:06:03,800
Speaker 1: said where are you going? And I said, I have

1042
01:06:03,880 --> 01:06:05,480
Speaker 1: to leave. I have a rehearsal. She said, what do

1043
01:06:05,520 --> 01:06:09,040
Speaker 1: you rehearsing? And I said, Traviata, the death scene. She said,

1044
01:06:09,640 --> 01:06:11,960
Speaker 1: do me, do me, do me. So she had this

1045
01:06:12,000 --> 01:06:16,160
Speaker 1: part and when she gives Alfred of the portrait BRANDI quest,

1046
01:06:16,200 --> 01:06:19,640
Speaker 1: day Margina, you know, but I did it Alla Scott

1047
01:06:19,840 --> 01:06:30,840
Speaker 1: Brand who as Dalli Margina. She freaked. I mean she

1048
01:06:30,920 --> 01:06:34,400
Speaker 1: was laughing hysterically. We used to call that the Scotto meow,

1049
01:06:34,640 --> 01:06:38,280
Speaker 1: kind of like quiz a cat mewing brandy, you know.

1050
01:06:38,640 --> 01:06:41,880
Speaker 1: And she got it totally and she loved it because well,

1051
01:06:41,920 --> 01:06:44,360
Speaker 1: it was about her, and what diva wouldn't love something

1052
01:06:44,400 --> 01:06:47,160
Speaker 1: that's about them after they You have so many great

1053
01:06:47,160 --> 01:06:49,800
Speaker 1: diva stories, but can you please as a Leontine Price,

1054
01:06:50,160 --> 01:06:53,000
Speaker 1: M Leontine is my number one, the sort of first

1055
01:06:53,160 --> 01:06:56,680
Speaker 1: black Prima Donna of opera. MS Price came to a

1056
01:06:56,800 --> 01:07:00,200
Speaker 1: Grand Shana performance. Can you please tell the story when

1057
01:07:00,200 --> 01:07:03,520
Speaker 1: she came back stage and that beautiful moment with Ms Price.

1058
01:07:03,960 --> 01:07:07,360
Speaker 1: Oh God, but she was so wonderful and she was

1059
01:07:07,400 --> 01:07:11,440
Speaker 1: such a great booster for the company. But this was

1060
01:07:11,480 --> 01:07:14,760
Speaker 1: the first time she ever saw us, and they wanted

1061
01:07:14,840 --> 01:07:18,160
Speaker 1: us to pose for pictures for I think it was newsweek,

1062
01:07:18,760 --> 01:07:23,160
Speaker 1: And so we got the my small company of singers

1063
01:07:23,160 --> 01:07:26,680
Speaker 1: together on stage with Leontine in her turb and her

1064
01:07:26,680 --> 01:07:32,200
Speaker 1: pearls looking stunning. Of course, So we were standing there

1065
01:07:32,440 --> 01:07:35,880
Speaker 1: and I had sung this the big second act of

1066
01:07:36,280 --> 01:07:40,280
Speaker 1: poker scene from Lafontulaville West Puccini, which is very very

1067
01:07:40,360 --> 01:07:44,840
Speaker 1: hard and has a big high C sharp that mostly

1068
01:07:45,000 --> 01:07:48,440
Speaker 1: anybody who sings that role leaves out. But I had

1069
01:07:48,480 --> 01:07:56,439
Speaker 1: sung it, and Liantine came and she said, I don't

1070
01:07:56,480 --> 01:07:59,160
Speaker 1: know how you got through that fontula, because it had

1071
01:07:59,160 --> 01:08:01,640
Speaker 1: given her a bit of a vocal crisis for a

1072
01:08:01,680 --> 01:08:04,080
Speaker 1: little while when she sang it at the men, she said,

1073
01:08:04,120 --> 01:08:06,120
Speaker 1: I just couldn't. I mean, I just it was just

1074
01:08:06,320 --> 01:08:09,640
Speaker 1: too rough. Of course I did have to see sharp.

1075
01:08:09,800 --> 01:08:12,560
Speaker 1: And then she hit the C sharp standing next to me,

1076
01:08:12,920 --> 01:08:15,400
Speaker 1: and I thought I had died and got to heaven.

1077
01:08:15,720 --> 01:08:19,839
Speaker 1: It was spun gold that just went like a laser

1078
01:08:19,960 --> 01:08:25,439
Speaker 1: beam shimmering into the theater. That was just phenomenal. The

1079
01:08:25,560 --> 01:08:28,040
Speaker 1: thought of it gives me goose bumps. Like Lantin Brice

1080
01:08:28,080 --> 01:08:32,160
Speaker 1: standing next to you singing a C sharp just feels

1081
01:08:32,320 --> 01:08:35,720
Speaker 1: like my idea of heaven. It just feels like I

1082
01:08:35,880 --> 01:08:40,240
Speaker 1: just it's such a gorgeous thing. Well certainly it was mine. Yeah.

1083
01:08:40,640 --> 01:08:43,479
Speaker 1: For you. Now, if you could talk to all of

1084
01:08:43,520 --> 01:08:45,639
Speaker 1: the singers out there now, who are you know, working

1085
01:08:45,680 --> 01:08:48,280
Speaker 1: opera singers or if any genre, I guess, what do

1086
01:08:48,360 --> 01:08:51,160
Speaker 1: you want them to know? I mean, and no taste

1087
01:08:51,160 --> 01:08:54,360
Speaker 1: have changed and it's it's a lost art. What would

1088
01:08:54,400 --> 01:08:57,800
Speaker 1: you say to young singers out there now? I think

1089
01:08:57,840 --> 01:09:00,280
Speaker 1: it's something that you referred to, and that's that the

1090
01:09:00,760 --> 01:09:04,680
Speaker 1: line in a way has been broken. Try to discover

1091
01:09:04,880 --> 01:09:07,880
Speaker 1: and call us always taught this. Try to discover the

1092
01:09:08,120 --> 01:09:14,160
Speaker 1: line back to what you come from, and really try

1093
01:09:14,240 --> 01:09:18,439
Speaker 1: to understand what's on the page that is there for

1094
01:09:18,520 --> 01:09:22,559
Speaker 1: you to mind and to pull out, respected to death,

1095
01:09:22,680 --> 01:09:25,879
Speaker 1: and then make it your own. Do not be afraid

1096
01:09:25,920 --> 01:09:29,400
Speaker 1: to be vivid. Do not be straight jacketed into a

1097
01:09:29,479 --> 01:09:33,000
Speaker 1: generic safe thing because you're trying to second guess what

1098
01:09:33,040 --> 01:09:37,439
Speaker 1: people you're auditioning for are looking for. And try to

1099
01:09:37,840 --> 01:09:45,040
Speaker 1: have integrity about the art form in terms of the score,

1100
01:09:45,760 --> 01:09:51,160
Speaker 1: the libretto, the vocal value, and the characterization, because in

1101
01:09:51,240 --> 01:09:54,120
Speaker 1: today's opera world, too often you're going to not get

1102
01:09:54,200 --> 01:09:57,599
Speaker 1: that from stage director, because it's going to be about

1103
01:09:57,720 --> 01:10:01,439
Speaker 1: the stage director's concept and you have to hold onto

1104
01:10:02,200 --> 01:10:07,680
Speaker 1: your vocal personality, your artistry, your understanding of it, and

1105
01:10:07,760 --> 01:10:12,000
Speaker 1: get through that experience. Go to YouTube and start looking

1106
01:10:12,080 --> 01:10:16,439
Speaker 1: at things that begin with nineteen zero something recordings to

1107
01:10:16,520 --> 01:10:21,040
Speaker 1: understand what you come from, no what your lineage is,

1108
01:10:21,560 --> 01:10:25,920
Speaker 1: what you're part of, your part of this amazing tradition.

1109
01:10:27,160 --> 01:10:30,000
Speaker 1: Learned about the tradition. Don't think you're better than the tradition.

1110
01:10:30,880 --> 01:10:33,160
Speaker 1: Oh that's such a beautiful advice. And what I hope

1111
01:10:33,160 --> 01:10:37,240
Speaker 1: people come away with today with our discussion is understanding

1112
01:10:37,640 --> 01:10:41,559
Speaker 1: that if you give everything you've got to something that

1113
01:10:41,640 --> 01:10:46,519
Speaker 1: you are very very serious and know everything about it,

1114
01:10:46,600 --> 01:10:48,800
Speaker 1: that you can make something out of it. And you

1115
01:10:48,880 --> 01:10:51,439
Speaker 1: have made a life in a career out of a

1116
01:10:51,560 --> 01:10:55,599
Speaker 1: love for adepas, out of a love for opera, And

1117
01:10:56,080 --> 01:10:59,760
Speaker 1: I just think that's the most beautiful thing ever. Wow. Well,

1118
01:11:00,000 --> 01:11:03,680
Speaker 1: thank you, Laverne. I'm somebody who works so hard with

1119
01:11:03,720 --> 01:11:07,320
Speaker 1: so much passion, and that's so important. It's crucial. We

1120
01:11:07,560 --> 01:11:13,040
Speaker 1: really we mustn't become too sophisticated for things that we

1121
01:11:13,120 --> 01:11:18,200
Speaker 1: don't see them with reverence and with passion and not

1122
01:11:18,280 --> 01:11:27,160
Speaker 1: be embarrassed by passion. Yeah, I'd like to end the

1123
01:11:27,200 --> 01:11:30,720
Speaker 1: podcast with the question that comes from my therapy, that

1124
01:11:30,920 --> 01:11:33,920
Speaker 1: it's really about building resilience is the idea of both,

1125
01:11:34,080 --> 01:11:37,880
Speaker 1: and even when something might be challenging in our lives,

1126
01:11:38,360 --> 01:11:41,080
Speaker 1: there is something that helps us get through. And the

1127
01:11:41,160 --> 01:11:45,920
Speaker 1: question is what else is true? So irac if madame iras,

1128
01:11:46,000 --> 01:11:52,320
Speaker 1: if for you today, what else is true? I find

1129
01:11:52,360 --> 01:11:55,040
Speaker 1: it to be, of course, a very challenging time that

1130
01:11:55,080 --> 01:12:01,040
Speaker 1: we're living in now, and I feel I'm not sure

1131
01:12:01,120 --> 01:12:04,760
Speaker 1: that this is an answer to that question, but an

1132
01:12:04,760 --> 01:12:08,200
Speaker 1: extension of what we talked about today, that the love,

1133
01:12:09,160 --> 01:12:14,479
Speaker 1: the passion, the devotion that one puts into something like

1134
01:12:14,520 --> 01:12:18,920
Speaker 1: an art form to which one devotes one's life, that

1135
01:12:18,920 --> 01:12:25,880
Speaker 1: that becomes an envelope that encompasses everything that you do,

1136
01:12:26,280 --> 01:12:31,320
Speaker 1: that you approach everything with that passion, that love, that fears,

1137
01:12:31,320 --> 01:12:35,479
Speaker 1: desire to communicate but also to receive communication, to understand

1138
01:12:35,560 --> 01:12:39,080
Speaker 1: what other people are trying to tell you, how they feel,

1139
01:12:39,120 --> 01:12:45,120
Speaker 1: what they think, who they are sharing in all possible directions,

1140
01:12:45,960 --> 01:12:51,240
Speaker 1: and understanding in all possible directions. And then I think

1141
01:12:51,240 --> 01:12:54,320
Speaker 1: people also really understand you if you can do that,

1142
01:12:55,840 --> 01:13:00,880
Speaker 1: even people you don't like. Without the love. For what

1143
01:13:00,920 --> 01:13:03,200
Speaker 1: we've been talking about today, I don't think I would

1144
01:13:03,200 --> 01:13:07,680
Speaker 1: have understood what love is that can be brought and

1145
01:13:07,760 --> 01:13:15,240
Speaker 1: extended to all situations. I don't know if that answers

1146
01:13:15,240 --> 01:13:18,519
Speaker 1: the question even remotely, but it does. I'm actually in

1147
01:13:18,560 --> 01:13:21,760
Speaker 1: tears right now because because that just made me think

1148
01:13:21,800 --> 01:13:24,840
Speaker 1: about what happens with the diva on stage, the giving

1149
01:13:24,880 --> 01:13:27,960
Speaker 1: and receiving of love. Right there are moments when I

1150
01:13:28,360 --> 01:13:30,880
Speaker 1: know you've experienced this vere and I think probably as

1151
01:13:30,920 --> 01:13:33,120
Speaker 1: a lecture as well, when the when the audience is

1152
01:13:33,160 --> 01:13:36,280
Speaker 1: just enthralled and they love you so much because you've

1153
01:13:36,320 --> 01:13:39,639
Speaker 1: given everything you've got and it's just this thing that

1154
01:13:39,720 --> 01:13:42,600
Speaker 1: you just there's just not even worse for it. You

1155
01:13:42,720 --> 01:13:46,360
Speaker 1: feel it, you know it, you see it, but you

1156
01:13:46,439 --> 01:13:49,200
Speaker 1: sense it more than anything, and you sense it in

1157
01:13:49,280 --> 01:13:53,160
Speaker 1: that one moment when you finish, before they start to

1158
01:13:53,200 --> 01:13:58,519
Speaker 1: scream that you just feel this suspension and then it goes,

1159
01:13:58,760 --> 01:14:04,400
Speaker 1: you know, and that is why you're really of all

1160
01:14:04,400 --> 01:14:07,200
Speaker 1: the things you do, you're brilliant teacher. What you do

1161
01:14:07,280 --> 01:14:10,599
Speaker 1: with the Metropologian Opera broadcast is you're giving that love

1162
01:14:10,920 --> 01:14:14,439
Speaker 1: and when we feel it, and when I think about you,

1163
01:14:14,520 --> 01:14:17,439
Speaker 1: I think about all those people that we lost. Um,

1164
01:14:17,479 --> 01:14:19,920
Speaker 1: I mean there was this caliber of artists that we

1165
01:14:20,040 --> 01:14:24,000
Speaker 1: had that we lost because of AIDS, and you are

1166
01:14:24,120 --> 01:14:27,519
Speaker 1: that caliber of artists who survived. And it is such

1167
01:14:27,560 --> 01:14:31,960
Speaker 1: a wonderful, wonderful gift to the world. Thank you for surviving.

1168
01:14:32,040 --> 01:14:35,679
Speaker 1: Thank you for the love and for the the level

1169
01:14:35,760 --> 01:14:41,439
Speaker 1: of excellence that you embody by example, everyone should be

1170
01:14:41,560 --> 01:14:45,200
Speaker 1: studying that. I think, thank you, Irah, Well, thank you,

1171
01:14:45,360 --> 01:15:31,040
Speaker 1: bless you, thank you. Yeah, yeah yeah, what a beautiful Aria.

1172
01:15:31,120 --> 01:15:35,679
Speaker 1: To end with that, of course, is Dido's Lament from

1173
01:15:35,840 --> 01:15:40,160
Speaker 1: Henry Purcell's Dido and Aeneas. When I'm late in earth,

1174
01:15:40,960 --> 01:15:44,720
Speaker 1: remember me, but oh forget my fate. I hope we

1175
01:15:44,840 --> 01:15:50,280
Speaker 1: all will always remember Ira sif he and I share

1176
01:15:50,640 --> 01:15:56,400
Speaker 1: this desire to be transformed by the operated voice, not

1177
01:15:56,600 --> 01:15:59,400
Speaker 1: only as a listener, but as the artist, as the

1178
01:15:59,439 --> 01:16:05,240
Speaker 1: singer become the diva. Ira has given me the gift

1179
01:16:05,280 --> 01:16:08,280
Speaker 1: to be able to, on a good day croak out

1180
01:16:08,439 --> 01:16:12,160
Speaker 1: some sound that feels transcendent, that feels good in my body,

1181
01:16:12,200 --> 01:16:15,439
Speaker 1: and I'm so grateful to him for that. And then

1182
01:16:15,479 --> 01:16:19,200
Speaker 1: the connection to to this bygone era of queer opera

1183
01:16:19,280 --> 01:16:24,599
Speaker 1: culture that doesn't really exist anymore. Ira is a tribute

1184
01:16:24,640 --> 01:16:29,320
Speaker 1: to those old divas a living tribute and a reminder

1185
01:16:30,040 --> 01:16:33,520
Speaker 1: of what we can learn if we really truly understand

1186
01:16:33,560 --> 01:16:36,880
Speaker 1: the past, have reverence for it, that that can take

1187
01:16:36,960 --> 01:16:39,559
Speaker 1: us into the future with a sort of fortification, with

1188
01:16:39,640 --> 01:16:43,120
Speaker 1: the grounding. For those of us who are artists, I

1189
01:16:43,200 --> 01:16:46,320
Speaker 1: think you can make the artistic journey one that we

1190
01:16:46,400 --> 01:17:12,360
Speaker 1: know we're not walking alone. Thank you for listening to

1191
01:17:12,400 --> 01:17:15,280
Speaker 1: The Laverne Cox Show. Join me next week for my

1192
01:17:15,320 --> 01:17:19,679
Speaker 1: conversation with award winning journalist, author, and producer Mary O'Hara.

1193
01:17:20,600 --> 01:17:23,320
Speaker 1: She has written a powerful book called The Shame Game,

1194
01:17:23,760 --> 01:17:27,679
Speaker 1: overturning the toxic poverty narrative for anyone who has struggled

1195
01:17:27,720 --> 01:17:30,400
Speaker 1: with shame on any level. You won't want to miss it.

1196
01:17:33,320 --> 01:17:36,880
Speaker 1: Please rate, review, subscribe, and share with everyone you know.

1197
01:17:37,400 --> 01:17:40,040
Speaker 1: You can find me on Instagram and Twitter at Laverne

1198
01:17:40,080 --> 01:17:45,000
Speaker 1: Cox and on Facebook at Laverne Cox for Real. Until

1199
01:17:45,080 --> 01:17:56,360
Speaker 1: next time, stay in the lock. The Laverne Cox Show

1200
01:17:56,400 --> 01:17:59,200
Speaker 1: is a production of Shonda land Audio in partnership with

1201
01:17:59,240 --> 01:18:02,960
Speaker 1: I Heart Radio. For more podcasts from Shondaland Audio, visit

1202
01:18:03,000 --> 01:18:06,519
Speaker 1: the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you

1203
01:18:06,600 --> 01:18:07,880
Speaker 1: listen to your favorite shows.