WEBVTT - Special Coverage: A Conversation with Secretary of State Marco Rubio

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<v Speaker 1>Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio News. Welcome to special coverage

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<v Speaker 1>from the Munich Security Conference and Froncine Laqua now Marco Rubio.

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<v Speaker 1>Of course, the US Secretary of State has reassured European

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<v Speaker 1>partners that the end of the Transatlantic Alliance is neither

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<v Speaker 1>a goal or a wish. He speaks with our editor

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<v Speaker 1>in chief, John mccausway.

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<v Speaker 2>Thank you, Francine Mary Ruby, Secuty of State, thank you

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<v Speaker 2>for talking to Bloomberg. You've just made this rather remarkable

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<v Speaker 2>speech where you talked about the destiny of Europe and

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<v Speaker 2>America always being intertwined. You talked about an alliance which

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<v Speaker 2>has stretched all the way culturally from Michelangelo to the

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<v Speaker 2>Rolling Stones, a first I suspect for a Secretary State,

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<v Speaker 2>but a culture that has bled and died together. But

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<v Speaker 2>the very common theme of your speech was the need

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<v Speaker 2>to share the burden, the need for Europe and America

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<v Speaker 2>to do to do things together, which was slightly different

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<v Speaker 2>from the Vice President last year. Were offering a character

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<v Speaker 2>where perhaps he was offering a state.

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<v Speaker 3>I think it's the same message.

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<v Speaker 4>I think what the Vice President said last year very

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<v Speaker 4>clearly was that Europe and made a series of decisions

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<v Speaker 4>internally that were threatening to the alliance and ultimately to themselves.

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<v Speaker 4>Not because we hate Europe or we don't like Europeans,

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<v Speaker 4>but because what is it that we fight for?

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<v Speaker 3>What is it that binds us together?

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<v Speaker 4>And ultimately it's the fact that we are both heirs

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<v Speaker 4>to the same civilization, and it's a great civilization, and

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<v Speaker 4>it's one we should be proud of. It's one that's

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<v Speaker 4>contributed extraordinarily to the world, and it's one frankly upon

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<v Speaker 4>which America is built. From our language, to our system

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<v Speaker 4>of government, to our laws, to the food we eat,

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<v Speaker 4>to the name of our cities and towns, all of

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<v Speaker 4>it deeply linked to this Western civilization and culture that

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<v Speaker 4>we should be proud of, and it's worth defending. And

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<v Speaker 4>ultimately that's the point. The point is that people, you know,

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<v Speaker 4>people don't fight and die for abstract ideas. They are

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<v Speaker 4>willing to fight and defend who they are and what

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<v Speaker 4>matters and is important to them. And that was the

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<v Speaker 4>foundation he laid last year in speech, and we add

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<v Speaker 4>on into this year to explain to people that when

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<v Speaker 4>we come off as urgent or even critical about decisions

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<v Speaker 4>that Europe has failed to make or made.

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<v Speaker 3>It is because we care.

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<v Speaker 4>It is because we understand that ultimately our own fate

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<v Speaker 4>will be intertwined with what happens with Europe. We want

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<v Speaker 4>Europe to survive, We want Europe to prosper because we're

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<v Speaker 4>interconnected in so many different ways, and because our alliance

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<v Speaker 4>is so critical. But it has to be an alliance

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<v Speaker 4>of allies that are capable and willing to fight for

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<v Speaker 4>who they are and what's important.

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<v Speaker 2>Do you see a parallel You seem to see a

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<v Speaker 2>parallel between the Cold War, which I think I would

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<v Speaker 2>argue that the America beat the Soviet Union because it

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<v Speaker 2>had a common idea and it had allies on its side.

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<v Speaker 2>You're now in a struggle with China. People say you've

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<v Speaker 2>often been a hawk on that subject. You're on a

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<v Speaker 2>struggle with China. Do you think you absolutely need Europe

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<v Speaker 2>to be able to Yeah.

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<v Speaker 3>I would say two things.

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<v Speaker 4>The first, the mentions of the Cold War, to remind

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<v Speaker 4>people of everything we've achieved together in the past, in

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<v Speaker 4>times when there was doubt. I mean, it's hard to

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<v Speaker 4>imagine today, but there were those who believed in the

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<v Speaker 4>sixties and seventies even that at a minimum we had

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<v Speaker 4>to reach the stalemate and worse, that perhaps Soviet expansion

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<v Speaker 4>was inevitable and that we needed to come to accept that.

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<v Speaker 4>There were voices that actually argued this, and so it's

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<v Speaker 4>reminding people of what we've done together in the past.

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<v Speaker 4>But it's also a reminder that at the end of

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<v Speaker 4>that era, when we won the Cold War, there was

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<v Speaker 4>this euphoria that led us to make some terrible decisions

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<v Speaker 4>that have now left us vulnerable and the industrialized the West.

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<v Speaker 4>It left us increasingly dependent on others, including China, for

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<v Speaker 4>our critical supplies, and that needs to be reversed in

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<v Speaker 4>order to safeguard us. And so I do think, yes,

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<v Speaker 4>it would be ideal to have a Western supply chain

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<v Speaker 4>that is free from extortion from anyone leave us side, China,

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<v Speaker 4>anybody else. We should never have to We should never

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<v Speaker 4>be in a situation where our alliance and our respective

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<v Speaker 4>countries are vulnerable to extortion or blackmail because someone controls

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<v Speaker 4>ninety nine percent of something that's critical to national life.

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<v Speaker 4>So I think we do have a vested interest in

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<v Speaker 4>that regard. Today is different than yesterday, but it has

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<v Speaker 4>parallels in that China is the new Soviet Union, but

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<v Speaker 4>that in our future, collectively will be stronger if we

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<v Speaker 4>work on these things together.

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<v Speaker 2>Do you worry from that perspective the fact that, especially

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<v Speaker 2>in the recent period, various sort of allies Mark Colney

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<v Speaker 2>has just been to Beijing, starmer has just been to Beijing.

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<v Speaker 2>Mertz is about to go there. Do you worry that

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<v Speaker 2>they're beginning to drift off too much in that direction?

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<v Speaker 3>No.

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<v Speaker 4>I think nation states need to interact with one another

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<v Speaker 4>just because you've I mean, remember, I serve under a

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<v Speaker 4>president that's willing to meet with anybody. I mean, to

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<v Speaker 4>be frank, I'm pretty confident in saying that if the

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<v Speaker 4>Ayatola said tomorrow he wanted to meet with President Trump,

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<v Speaker 4>the President would meet him, not because he agrees with

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<v Speaker 4>the Ayatola, but because he thinks that's the way you

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<v Speaker 4>solve problems in the world, and he doesn't view meeting

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<v Speaker 4>someone as a concession. Likewise, the President in tends to

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<v Speaker 4>travel to Beijing and has already met once with President

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<v Speaker 4>g and in this very forum yesterday, I met with

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<v Speaker 4>my counterpart, the Foreign Minister of China. So we expect

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<v Speaker 4>nation states to interact with one another. In the end,

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<v Speaker 4>we expect nation states to act in their national interest.

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<v Speaker 3>I don't think that is excluded.

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<v Speaker 4>That that in no way runs counter to our desire

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<v Speaker 4>to work together on things that we share in common

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<v Speaker 4>or threats we face in common. But I don't think

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<v Speaker 4>visiting Beijing or meeting with the Chinese is on the country.

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<v Speaker 4>I think it would be irresponsible for great powers not

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<v Speaker 4>to have relationships and talk to things and to the

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<v Speaker 4>extent possible and avoid unnecessary conflict. But there will be

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<v Speaker 4>areas we'll never agree on, and those are the areas

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<v Speaker 4>that I hope we can work together on.

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<v Speaker 2>So you think the rupture that many people have spoken

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<v Speaker 2>about is illusory that hasn't happened yet, Well.

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<v Speaker 4>There's no I mean, even as I speak to you now,

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<v Speaker 4>there are US troops deployed here on this continent, on

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<v Speaker 4>behalf of NATO. There are still all kinds of cooperation

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<v Speaker 4>that go on at every level, from intelligence to commercial

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<v Speaker 4>and economic.

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<v Speaker 3>The links remain.

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<v Speaker 4>I think there is a readjustment that's happening because I

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<v Speaker 4>think we have to understand that we want to reinvigorate this.

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<v Speaker 4>This alliance has to look different because the world looks different.

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<v Speaker 4>This alliance has to be about different things than it's

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<v Speaker 4>been in the past. Because the challenges of the twenty

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<v Speaker 4>first century are different than the challenges of the twentieth.

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<v Speaker 4>The world has changed, and the alliance has to change.

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<v Speaker 4>The fundamental thing that has to change is we have

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<v Speaker 4>to remind ourselves of why it is we have an

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<v Speaker 4>alliance in the first place. This is not just a

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<v Speaker 4>military arrangement, This is not just some commercial arrangement. It

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<v Speaker 4>is what holds us together in the first place. Is

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<v Speaker 4>an alliance, is our shared civilizational values, the fact that

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<v Speaker 4>we are all heirs to a common civilization and one

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<v Speaker 4>we should be very proud of. And only after we

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<v Speaker 4>recognize that and make that the core of why it

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<v Speaker 4>is where allies in the first place, can we then

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<v Speaker 4>build out all the mechanics of that alliance, and then

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<v Speaker 4>everything else we do together makes more sense.

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<v Speaker 2>Place for that's being most obviously tested at the moment

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<v Speaker 2>is Ukraine. You see all these numbers from the front

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<v Speaker 2>where the Ukrainians do seem to be doing better in

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<v Speaker 2>terms of what's happening in the Russians. Do you think

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<v Speaker 2>Ukraine or do you think Russia is still winning that war?

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<v Speaker 2>Or where do you place it militarily?

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<v Speaker 4>I think that's a difficult order to say. Anyone is winning.

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<v Speaker 4>The Russians are losing seven to eight thousand soldiers a week,

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<v Speaker 4>a week not wounded dead. Ukraine has suffered extraordinary damage,

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<v Speaker 4>including you know, overnight and again to its energy infrastructure,

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<v Speaker 4>and it will take billions of dollars in years and

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<v Speaker 4>years to rebuild that country.

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<v Speaker 3>So I don't think anyone can claim to be winning it.

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<v Speaker 4>I think that both sides are suffering tremendous damage, and

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<v Speaker 4>we'd like to see the war come to an end.

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<v Speaker 4>It's a senseless war, and our view, the President believes

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<v Speaker 4>that very deeply. He believes the war would have never

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<v Speaker 4>happened that he'd been president at the time.

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<v Speaker 3>So we're doing two things.

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<v Speaker 4>So obviously we continued, Look, we don't provide arms to Russia,

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<v Speaker 4>we provide arms to Ukraine.

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<v Speaker 3>We don't sanction Ukraine. We sanction Russia.

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<v Speaker 4>But at the same time, we find ourselves in a

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<v Speaker 4>unique position of serving as probably the only nation on

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<v Speaker 4>earth that can bring the two sides to discuss the

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<v Speaker 4>potential for ending this war on negotiated terms. And it's

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<v Speaker 4>an obligation we won't walk away from because we think

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<v Speaker 4>it's a very unique one to have.

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<v Speaker 3>It may not come to fruition. Unfortunately.

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<v Speaker 4>I hope it does, and I think there are days

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<v Speaker 4>when I feel more optimistic about it than others. But

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<v Speaker 4>we're going to keep trying because that is in the end,

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<v Speaker 4>this war will not be solved militarily. It will be

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<v Speaker 4>in the end it will come to a negotiated settlement.

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<v Speaker 4>I'd like to see that happen as soon as possible.

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<v Speaker 2>If Ukraine loses the war, it's going to be a

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<v Speaker 2>disaster for the Transatlantic relationship because Americans will say the

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<v Speaker 2>Europeans didn't provide enough arms, and Europeans will look and

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<v Speaker 2>remember the beating the White House and Silenski of Trump,

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<v Speaker 2>and they will, but.

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<v Speaker 3>That would ignore reality.

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<v Speaker 4>Look Ukraine, first of all, they deserve a lot of credit.

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<v Speaker 4>They've fought very bravely. They've received extraordinary amount of support

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<v Speaker 4>from the United States, to the tune of billions of

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<v Speaker 4>dollars that pre exist the war. In fact, Ukraine probably

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<v Speaker 4>wouldn't have survived the early days of the war had

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<v Speaker 4>it not been for American aid that came to them

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<v Speaker 4>even before the war had started, you know, with the

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<v Speaker 4>javelin missiles that disabled the Take that.

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<v Speaker 2>Saying it was fair, I was just saying there's a possible.

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<v Speaker 4>I mean, you have to deal with but I'm not

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<v Speaker 4>worried about that because I can tell you that I

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<v Speaker 4>think history well understand that. But I don't think the

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<v Speaker 4>war is going to end in a traditional loss in

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<v Speaker 4>the way people think. I don't think it's possible for

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<v Speaker 4>Russia to even achieve whatever initial objectives they had at

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<v Speaker 4>the beginning of this war. I think now it's largely

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<v Speaker 4>narrowed down to their desire to take twenty percent of

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<v Speaker 4>the nets they don't currently possess, and that's hard. It's

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<v Speaker 4>a hard concession for Ukraine to make for obvious reasons,

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<v Speaker 4>both from a tactical standpoint and also from a political one.

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<v Speaker 4>And so that's kind of where this thing is narrowed.

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<v Speaker 4>And you know, we'll continue to search for ways to

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<v Speaker 4>see if there's a solution to that unique problem that's

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<v Speaker 4>acceptable to Ukraine and that Russia will also accept. And

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<v Speaker 4>it may not work out, but we are going to

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<v Speaker 4>do everything we can to see if we can find

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<v Speaker 4>a deal there. Like I said, there are days like

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<v Speaker 4>last week where you felt we'd made some pretty substantial progress,

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<v Speaker 4>but ultimately we have to see a final resolution to

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<v Speaker 4>this to feel that it's been.

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<v Speaker 3>Worth the work, but we're going to keep trying.

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<v Speaker 4>And our negotiators Steve Woodcoff now Jared Kushner is involved,

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<v Speaker 4>have dedicated a tremendous amount of time to this, and

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<v Speaker 4>they'll have meetings again on Tuesday.

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<v Speaker 3>Regards to this, what.

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<v Speaker 2>About a country with which you've had a long interest

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<v Speaker 2>in Cuba? You mentioned it obliquely in the speech talking

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<v Speaker 2>about the Cuban missile crisis. How long do you think

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<v Speaker 2>the regime can last without Well, I.

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<v Speaker 4>Think the regime in cubas are look in Cuba, and

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<v Speaker 4>that a long time ago and in failure. The Cuba's

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<v Speaker 4>fundamental problem is that it has no economy, and its

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<v Speaker 4>economic model is one that has never been tried and

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<v Speaker 4>has never worked anywhere else in the world. Okay, it

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<v Speaker 4>doesn't have a real economic policy, It doesn't have a

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<v Speaker 4>real economy. Not to forget it, put aside for a moment,

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<v Speaker 4>the fact that it has no freedom of expression, no democracy, anything,

0:10:18.360 --> 0:10:21.480
<v Speaker 4>no respect for human rights. The fundamental problem Cuba has

0:10:21.600 --> 0:10:23.880
<v Speaker 4>is it has no economy, and the people who are

0:10:23.880 --> 0:10:26.320
<v Speaker 4>in charge of that country, in control of that country,

0:10:27.080 --> 0:10:30.800
<v Speaker 4>they don't know how to improve the everyday life of

0:10:30.840 --> 0:10:34.320
<v Speaker 4>their people. Without giving up power over sectors that they control.

0:10:34.360 --> 0:10:36.320
<v Speaker 4>They want to control everything. They don't want the people

0:10:36.360 --> 0:10:39.640
<v Speaker 4>a Cuba to control anything. So they don't know how

0:10:39.640 --> 0:10:41.800
<v Speaker 4>to get themselves out of this, and to the extent

0:10:41.840 --> 0:10:45.080
<v Speaker 4>that they've been offered opportunities to do it, they don't

0:10:45.080 --> 0:10:47.680
<v Speaker 4>seem to be able to comprehend it or accept it

0:10:47.720 --> 0:10:49.600
<v Speaker 4>in any ways. They would much rather be in charge

0:10:49.600 --> 0:10:51.120
<v Speaker 4>of the country than allow it to prosper.

0:10:51.280 --> 0:10:53.560
<v Speaker 2>Is there any kind of offramp for the regime? I

0:10:53.559 --> 0:10:56.320
<v Speaker 2>mean previous ones when you negotiate with Venezuela, you said

0:10:56.559 --> 0:10:59.240
<v Speaker 2>if they agreed with various things, it would be possible.

0:10:58.880 --> 0:11:00.600
<v Speaker 3>To get tarre is I mean, look.

0:11:00.480 --> 0:11:02.240
<v Speaker 2>I think you could the Cuban regime.

0:11:02.360 --> 0:11:03.920
<v Speaker 4>Well, I'm not going to tell you or announce this

0:11:03.960 --> 0:11:06.400
<v Speaker 4>in an interview here because obviously these things require space

0:11:06.440 --> 0:11:07.920
<v Speaker 4>and time to do it in the right way. But

0:11:07.960 --> 0:11:09.840
<v Speaker 4>I will say this that that is that it is

0:11:09.880 --> 0:11:12.240
<v Speaker 4>important for the people of Cuba to have more freedom,

0:11:12.280 --> 0:11:15.600
<v Speaker 4>not just political freedom, but economic freedom. The people of Cuba,

0:11:15.760 --> 0:11:17.959
<v Speaker 4>and that's what this regime is not willing to give

0:11:18.000 --> 0:11:20.480
<v Speaker 4>them because they're afraid that the people of Cuba can

0:11:20.520 --> 0:11:23.240
<v Speaker 4>provide for themselves. They lose control over them, they lose

0:11:23.280 --> 0:11:25.400
<v Speaker 4>power over them. So I think there has to be

0:11:25.640 --> 0:11:27.559
<v Speaker 4>that opening. It has to happen, and I think now

0:11:27.679 --> 0:11:30.360
<v Speaker 4>Cuba's faced to such a dire situation. Remember, this is

0:11:30.360 --> 0:11:34.120
<v Speaker 4>a regime that has survived almost entirely on subsidies, first

0:11:34.120 --> 0:11:37.120
<v Speaker 4>from the Soviet Union, then from Ugo Chavez, and now

0:11:37.160 --> 0:11:39.320
<v Speaker 4>for the first time it has no subsidies coming in

0:11:39.360 --> 0:11:42.160
<v Speaker 4>from anyone, and the model's been laid bare. And it's

0:11:42.160 --> 0:11:44.200
<v Speaker 4>not just that. Look, multiple countries have gone in and

0:11:44.200 --> 0:11:46.480
<v Speaker 4>help with the problem is that you lose money in Cuba.

0:11:46.480 --> 0:11:49.480
<v Speaker 4>They never pay their bills, they never end they never

0:11:49.559 --> 0:11:51.480
<v Speaker 4>end up paying, It never ends up working out. There

0:11:51.480 --> 0:11:53.560
<v Speaker 4>were European countries that went to Cuba and made what

0:11:53.600 --> 0:11:56.440
<v Speaker 4>they thought were investments in certain sectors, only to have

0:11:56.559 --> 0:12:00.000
<v Speaker 4>them the contracts canceled and get themselves kicked out. Because

0:12:00.120 --> 0:12:03.080
<v Speaker 4>the Cuban regime has no fundamental understanding of what business

0:12:03.120 --> 0:12:05.600
<v Speaker 4>and industry looks like, and the people are suffering as

0:12:05.600 --> 0:12:07.880
<v Speaker 4>a result of it. So I think certainly their willingness

0:12:07.920 --> 0:12:10.000
<v Speaker 4>to begin to make openings in this regard.

0:12:11.240 --> 0:12:12.560
<v Speaker 3>Is one potential way forward.

0:12:12.600 --> 0:12:14.440
<v Speaker 4>I would also say that this has not been really

0:12:14.440 --> 0:12:16.480
<v Speaker 4>talked about a lot, But the United States has been

0:12:16.480 --> 0:12:19.680
<v Speaker 4>providing humanitarian assistance directly to the Cuban people via the

0:12:19.720 --> 0:12:23.120
<v Speaker 4>Catholic Church. We did it after the hurricane. We actually

0:12:23.160 --> 0:12:25.559
<v Speaker 4>just recently announced an increase in the amount we're willing

0:12:25.600 --> 0:12:27.680
<v Speaker 4>to give, and that's something we're willing to continue to

0:12:27.679 --> 0:12:29.920
<v Speaker 4>explore it, but obviously that's not a such long term

0:12:29.960 --> 0:12:31.560
<v Speaker 4>solution to the problems on the island.

0:12:31.840 --> 0:12:34.640
<v Speaker 2>Malco Rubia, thank you very much for doing to Blimberg.

0:12:34.720 --> 0:12:37.840
<v Speaker 1>Thankk you great and substantial interview there the Secretary of

0:12:37.840 --> 0:12:40.520
<v Speaker 1>State Mark or Rubio speaking to our very own editor

0:12:40.559 --> 0:12:44.240
<v Speaker 1>in chief, John Micklethwaite. Now, Secretary Rubio really seeking to

0:12:44.280 --> 0:12:46.920
<v Speaker 1>reassure some of the allies, but also seeking to reassure

0:12:47.000 --> 0:12:49.840
<v Speaker 1>Europe of the US commitment to the continent, whilst at

0:12:49.880 --> 0:12:53.480
<v Speaker 1>the same time criticizing Western leaders for what he calls

0:12:53.640 --> 0:12:58.800
<v Speaker 1>dangerous delusion of open borders, free trade and punishing energy policies. Now,

0:12:58.800 --> 0:13:01.959
<v Speaker 1>they also talked about Ukraine in Iran Venezuela, and then

0:13:02.080 --> 0:13:05.199
<v Speaker 1>queried about the relationship with China. The Secretary said it

0:13:05.240 --> 0:13:09.080
<v Speaker 1>would be a geopolitical malpractice not to be in conversations

0:13:09.360 --> 0:13:12.920
<v Speaker 1>with China. Well, that's it for our special coverage right

0:13:12.960 --> 0:13:15.679
<v Speaker 1>here from the Munich Security conference in Francin Lacwis.

0:13:15.679 --> 0:13:16.760
<v Speaker 3>And this is Bluemberg