Speaker 1: Hey, this is Talia Schlanger and you're listening to Here's
Speaker 1: the Thing from My Heart Radio. My guest today can't
Speaker 1: help but excel at everything she does, from acting to directing,
Speaker 1: writing features to making documentaries. She is celebrated in so
Speaker 1: many different circles. It's the multi talented Sarah Polly. As
Speaker 1: a child actor, Polly starred in films like Terry Gilliams,
Speaker 1: The Adventures of Baron Munchausen and the beloved CBC series
Speaker 1: Rode to Avonlea. She moved on to acclaimed rolls in
Speaker 1: The Sweet Hereafter Go and Dawn of the Dead. In
Speaker 1: her twenties, she made the move to writing and directing.
Speaker 1: Her first film away from her started Julie Christie and
Speaker 1: Olympia Ducacus and earned Polly an Academy Award nomination for
Speaker 1: Best Adapted Screenplay as well as a Genie Award for
Speaker 1: Best Direction. Since then, she has continued to write and
Speaker 1: direct for TV and film, and she branched into documentary
Speaker 1: with Stories We Tell, the film about her family history.
Speaker 1: Poully can now add author to her growing list of accomplishments.
Speaker 1: She recently released her first book, It's called Run Towards
Speaker 1: the Danger, Confrontations with a body of memory, and it's
Speaker 1: a pretty stunning collection of essays exploring some difficult chapters
Speaker 1: in her life. Sarah Paully told me what it means
Speaker 1: to run towards the danger. Well, the first time I
Speaker 1: heard that was from a Dr Mickey Collins at the
Speaker 1: University of Pittsburgh Medical Center, and I had had a
Speaker 1: pretty serious concussion, very serious concussion. I mean, for the
Speaker 1: first year I wasn't able to do much at all,
Speaker 1: and then I would have periods that were better than others,
Speaker 1: as long as I managed my stimulation while and didn't
Speaker 1: have too much noise or light. But basically it altered
Speaker 1: my life and made me unable to do a lot
Speaker 1: of the things I've been able to do, and unable
Speaker 1: to handle a lot of the things I've been able
Speaker 1: to handle. I eventually ended up with Dr Mickey Collins
Speaker 1: in Pittsburgh, and I remember him saying to me in
Speaker 1: that first meeting, if you remember only one thing from
Speaker 1: this meeting, remember this run towards the danger. And what
Speaker 1: he meant by that was a kind of paradigm shift
Speaker 1: in terms of how to recover from a concussion. So
Speaker 1: a lot of the advice you get when you have
Speaker 1: a concussion is to rest, to listen to your body,
Speaker 1: to slow down. The better concussion doctors will tell you
Speaker 1: to exercise, but when you feel like your symptoms are
Speaker 1: becoming too much, go rest or do something else. And
Speaker 1: his advice was really different from that. His advice was,
Speaker 1: the things that are hard for you, the things that
Speaker 1: are causing you discomfort and pain because of your concussion,
Speaker 1: are the things you actually need to do more of
Speaker 1: because your brain has become weaker and weaker at handling
Speaker 1: these things. Because of this, you know the way you've
Speaker 1: been protecting yourself. So this was of course scaffolded with
Speaker 1: a lot of like vestibular exercises and physical exercises, and
Speaker 1: every treatment he gives is different. But the notion of
Speaker 1: moving towards what causes you discomfort instead of away from
Speaker 1: it being a key ingredient to healing was a really
Speaker 1: new concept for me, and then one that kind of
Speaker 1: exploded out into all of these other areas of my
Speaker 1: life and became, in a way, the genesis for bringing
Speaker 1: all of these essays together into this book. Also, I
Speaker 1: should say at that time, you had two small kids,
Speaker 1: like you're juggling a lot of things while you're trying
Speaker 1: to take on this this advice of confronting the pain
Speaker 1: or pushing past what you think your threshold is. And
Speaker 1: it's one thing to do that on a physical level,
Speaker 1: but then it's a whole little thing to do that
Speaker 1: on an emotional level with stories like you've done with
Speaker 1: this book. What was the process like for you of
Speaker 1: pushing past the threshold to get these stories out. I mean,
Speaker 1: it was a long one and kind of it was
Speaker 1: a bit of a windy road. I mean, I'd been
Speaker 1: writing some of these essays for twenty years and didn't
Speaker 1: have the courage to either finish them or to share them,
Speaker 1: or I would, you know, write a few paragraphs and
Speaker 1: put it away for years and then pull it out again.
Speaker 1: I mean, the stories in this book were some of
Speaker 1: the hardest stories for me to look at that I've
Speaker 1: ever experienced. The ones that were pivotal, the ones that
Speaker 1: hurt the most, the ones that I wasn't even sure
Speaker 1: what the shape of the narrative was. Those stories that
Speaker 1: leave you with a kind of confusion that you haul
Speaker 1: along with you. These were those stories for me. So
Speaker 1: this idea of running towards the danger began um taking
Speaker 1: on the form of, you know, opening these word documents
Speaker 1: that I kept shutting or had put away or even
Speaker 1: like hidden myself in files and the combune where they
Speaker 1: were hard to find, and going, what is it about
Speaker 1: this that's making me so scared to continue the story,
Speaker 1: or to finish the story, or to even read what
Speaker 1: I've written. And those became the stories I became most
Speaker 1: determined to tell, no matter how hard they were. Why
Speaker 1: I determined to tell them for yourself, for your own exorcism,
Speaker 1: or for the benefit of others, or a combination. I
Speaker 1: think some of them I didn't know why I was
Speaker 1: writing them. I mean, some of these essays. There's one
Speaker 1: about stage fright and scoliosis and my mother dying, and
Speaker 1: you know, a thousand other things. The first essay, which
Speaker 1: is called Alice Collapsing, which I wrote when I was
Speaker 1: eighteen and twenty three and thirty three and forty, like
Speaker 1: it's written by four different people. Like, I don't think
Speaker 1: I knew why I was writing that story when I
Speaker 1: started it, and by the time I was writing at forty,
Speaker 1: I probably did. I think all of them became for
Speaker 1: me interesting ways of looking at the way the past
Speaker 1: and the present relate to each other the way I
Speaker 1: think we are all very well acquainted now with the
Speaker 1: idea that our past and childhood experiences inform our present life.
Speaker 1: I guess I also hope that like this notion that
Speaker 1: childhood trauma or experience are difficult experiences from another time
Speaker 1: in your life, aren't static. They don't have to live
Speaker 1: there always as these ticking time bombs or these jaggedy
Speaker 1: sharp things that like, if you get to live a
Speaker 1: life where stories that echo those story is go a
Speaker 1: different better way. Those stories can become lighter, like, those
Speaker 1: stories can become easier to carry, Those stories can have
Speaker 1: in the end a totally different meaning to you than
Speaker 1: they have now. Like those stories that feel so static
Speaker 1: and hard and rigid in your stomach can actually loosen
Speaker 1: um and become more flexible and interesting if you can
Speaker 1: kind of dive in and pull the threads and be curious.
Speaker 1: So I think for me, that's what the the recovery
Speaker 1: process with all of these stories looked like for me
Speaker 1: was the diving in and the being conscious of the
Speaker 1: past in the present life. Having the present life go
Speaker 1: a different way actually meant the past looks and feels
Speaker 1: differently to me. Now. The subtitle of the book is
Speaker 1: Confrontations with a Body of Memory. And when we talk
Speaker 1: about the literal body that you're confronting in this book,
Speaker 1: you've already mentioned a concussion scoliosis, which you are diagnosed
Speaker 1: with at age eleven, being in a hard plus dig
Speaker 1: brace at a time of puberty when your body is changing.
Speaker 1: But also for you, at a time when you're starting
Speaker 1: on a television show and day in and day out
Speaker 1: you are being looked at by people and people are
Speaker 1: putting clothes on you and and fitting you for things. Um,
Speaker 1: how did that diagnosis looking back on it now, how
Speaker 1: did that diagnosis shape your relationship to your physical body? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean the thing that complicated the experience for me,
Speaker 1: and I think it's complicated for any person who goes
Speaker 1: through this as a kid. But the thing that complicated
Speaker 1: for me was I was living a very public life
Speaker 1: and I was on the lead in the TV show,
Speaker 1: and at a certain point I was also you know,
Speaker 1: on stage at Stratford, and so you know, there were
Speaker 1: long costume fittings of like how do we make her
Speaker 1: body look normal? Or how do we accommodate the costumes
Speaker 1: to fit this brace. So it was a very public
Speaker 1: display of what was already a very uncomfortable and somewhat
Speaker 1: humiliating experience. So the way I dealt with that was
Speaker 1: just separating who I was from what was happening to
Speaker 1: my body. I think, and I get a sense like
Speaker 1: learning to maybe a nor what your body is telling
Speaker 1: you about how it's feeling in order to perform in
Speaker 1: the way you have have to. Is that fair to
Speaker 1: say as well? Yeah? Absolutely, Is that common in the
Speaker 1: acting industry, I would think, I think so. I think so.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think there's also there's a sense that
Speaker 1: nothing can stop for a human being, right, Like I
Speaker 1: think in film and television, the idea that anything would
Speaker 1: delay anything for an hour even is inconceivable. So you
Speaker 1: kind of learned to just trudge through your humans. Like
Speaker 1: I remember we were just location scoting for this film
Speaker 1: I did in this summer. It was like a hundred
Speaker 1: and eight degrees with the human dex and we were
Speaker 1: trudging through these soy fields and and how much water
Speaker 1: food with us, and we all just kept going and
Speaker 1: like we did that for like hours, and I got
Speaker 1: home and went like, why didn't one of us complain
Speaker 1: about that or stop it. And this was a pretty
Speaker 1: compassionate set compared to most, and we're all pretty aware
Speaker 1: and we had conversations about it all the time, how
Speaker 1: do we make this a really safe, welcoming place. But
Speaker 1: ultimately nobody wanted to be the one to say, like
Speaker 1: it's too hot, I need water or I need food.
Speaker 1: And it's like we had created an environment very consciously
Speaker 1: that was to be humane. It's like this thing switches
Speaker 1: on you go into like soldier mode or something where
Speaker 1: you're just you got to be a trooper. And I
Speaker 1: certainly have that from being a child actor. It's like
Speaker 1: you can't be the one to delay or stop anything.
Speaker 1: And I think it just creates the possibility for a
Speaker 1: lot of really big problems on sets. You know, I
Speaker 1: sa a lot of pressure if you don't mind it.
Speaker 1: Like I think the incident that's coming to mind, which
Speaker 1: you relay in the book, is when you were nine
Speaker 1: years old and starring in this film that was directed
Speaker 1: by Terry Gilliam. Would you mind saying a little bit
Speaker 1: about what that set experience was like so that we
Speaker 1: can you know, picture what you're saying. Yeah, so I
Speaker 1: actually lot as a kid and one of the main
Speaker 1: parts I did was the role of Sally Salt in
Speaker 1: the Adventures of barrenman Chausen, which was directed by Terry
Speaker 1: Gilliam when I was eight, and it was a production that,
Speaker 1: you know, notoriously spiral that of control. There was a
Speaker 1: book written about it called Losing the Light. I mean,
Speaker 1: it was like one of those big disastrous movie stories
Speaker 1: about a production gone awry, and there were a lot
Speaker 1: of special effects, there were a lot of stunts, and
Speaker 1: many times things felt wildly out of control and dangerous,
Speaker 1: and you know, some of those incidents involved explosives going
Speaker 1: off really close to me. And there was an incident
Speaker 1: in a boat where we're in a rowboat with a
Speaker 1: few actors and a horse, and explosives were going off
Speaker 1: in a water tank beside the horse and the boat,
Speaker 1: and it spook the horse and it started backing up
Speaker 1: into us, and the rider took it overboard, and that
Speaker 1: surfaced another explosive that went off really close to me,
Speaker 1: and I went to hospital, and you know, there were
Speaker 1: a lot of really terrifying things that happened on that set.
Speaker 1: Um So I kind of grew up with this feeling
Speaker 1: of a set being a very unstable, scary place, but
Speaker 1: that it was absolutely not my right to stop what
Speaker 1: was in motion, no matter how unsafe it became, and that,
Speaker 1: you know, that became somewhat ingrained. And so I think
Speaker 1: I've spent a lot of time as a filmmaker trying
Speaker 1: to unpack those instincts that make you want to keep
Speaker 1: going when you should really stop, and to try to
Speaker 1: kind of reorient what the priorities and focus need to
Speaker 1: be when you are responsible for a whole bunch of
Speaker 1: other human beings. But you know, I don't think I'm
Speaker 1: always successful at it. It's like it's just like a
Speaker 1: work in progress all the time. What made you want
Speaker 1: to act in the first place, Like, was it was
Speaker 1: it your choice when you were a really small kid.
Speaker 1: Was it something that you wanted to do? I mean
Speaker 1: the story I was told as a kid, was I
Speaker 1: desperately wanted to do it? My parents were in the industry,
Speaker 1: you know, my mom was a casting director. My gut
Speaker 1: is it probably happened a little bit more organically in
Speaker 1: terms of her breaking and for an audition than that.
Speaker 1: But certainly I think they were getting something out of it,
Speaker 1: Like I think they were getting access to a world
Speaker 1: that they wanted access to. I think they were excited
Speaker 1: for me to get access to a world that had
Speaker 1: been hard for them to get access to. There was
Speaker 1: nothing malicious about my parents, and they were very loving,
Speaker 1: great people. But I do think it's possible to get
Speaker 1: carried away, Like, especially when a kid has a certain
Speaker 1: measure of success, it can get hard to track how
Speaker 1: much of this is my kid's passion and how much
Speaker 1: am I getting out of it. I think that can
Speaker 1: be really easy to lose track of. Yeah, I'm interested
Speaker 1: to know. I guess how you made the transition from
Speaker 1: acting when you were a kid to the choices that
Speaker 1: you made for yourself as an adult. Because can imagine
Speaker 1: a world where you could have thought, I want to
Speaker 1: be the hollywoodist actor that I can be, Like, now
Speaker 1: that I'm doing it and I'm in this industry, I'm
Speaker 1: I'm going to go for it. Tell me about, like
Speaker 1: how you decided what was going to be of interest
Speaker 1: to you as an adult if you continued acting well.
Speaker 1: I think one of the advantages of being a child
Speaker 1: actor and seeing you know, big Hollywood productions completely out
Speaker 1: of control and seeing how kind of disposable people's well
Speaker 1: being was at a very early age on sets Is.
Speaker 1: It made me really skept a call, which I think
Speaker 1: was really helpful and really healthy as an adult in
Speaker 1: terms of making choices, Like, I think I was really
Speaker 1: conscious I had a really really active bullshit detector. I
Speaker 1: knew that I didn't want to be really famous. I
Speaker 1: knew that I wanted to if I was going to
Speaker 1: be involved in this industry at all, which I think
Speaker 1: I had a lot of cynicism about generally. I knew
Speaker 1: that I wanted to be on projects that I had
Speaker 1: felt had some meaning or something to say, or at
Speaker 1: least would be in connection with people that weren't single
Speaker 1: focus who had a sense of humanity about them. So
Speaker 1: I think it really helped shape the kinds of decisions
Speaker 1: I made, and then certainly as a filmmaker, Um, I
Speaker 1: really want to know why I'm making what I'm making, like,
Speaker 1: I really want to know who it's serving and why
Speaker 1: and how. So it's got to have meaning for me,
Speaker 1: It's got to have a purpose, that has to have
Speaker 1: a reason for being. I think the gratitude for just
Speaker 1: being here is is slowly dawning on me as an
Speaker 1: adult and as I get older, but it's taken a
Speaker 1: long time to get here, If I can say so,
Speaker 1: I think that's why your work is so good, Like
Speaker 1: it's made for the sake of having something to say,
Speaker 1: rather than for the sake of making something or or
Speaker 1: anything else. I mean this, this shouldn't really be remarkable,
Speaker 1: but it kind of is that you. You made your
Speaker 1: you directed your first film when you were in your
Speaker 1: mid twenties, and I say it's remarkable because it's quite young,
Speaker 1: especially for a female filmmaker. The film Away from Her,
Speaker 1: which was so beautiful. What was it like to actually
Speaker 1: get that film made. I had been trying for years
Speaker 1: to get a film made before that one, and it
Speaker 1: was really hard at first. I think the idea of
Speaker 1: a young actress making a movie was really hard for
Speaker 1: people to wrap their heads around. Like there are a
Speaker 1: lot of amazing young actresses making movies now. But then
Speaker 1: it was like if you were a male actor trying
Speaker 1: to direct, it was treated very, very differently, and I
Speaker 1: think people thought it was like some hobby or something
Speaker 1: I was trying. Yeah, so I tried to make one
Speaker 1: movie for like years, and then it was I was
Speaker 1: turned down in more and more humiliating ways by Telefilm,
Speaker 1: our government film ending agency, and finally I I wrote
Speaker 1: away from her quite quickly, and I gave myself a deadline,
Speaker 1: and the deadline was like something absurd, like in six
Speaker 1: months from now, if this film isn't green light, I'm
Speaker 1: not going to try to direct again, Like I just
Speaker 1: can't do this anymore. And it turned out it was
Speaker 1: that kind of energy that's sort of nothing to lose,
Speaker 1: do or die energy that it took to actually get
Speaker 1: a movie financed. And then I had champions, like then
Speaker 1: there was this big changing of the guard at Telephone,
Speaker 1: which was the film funding agency at the time, and
Speaker 1: then it came together quite quickly. But certainly there was
Speaker 1: a lot of you know, not always being taken seriously,
Speaker 1: like thankfully my closest collaborators did. And I was surrounded
Speaker 1: by both really supportive women and also really great men
Speaker 1: who who took me really seriously and helped me just
Speaker 1: sort of assume that leadership role which I was nervous about.
Speaker 1: But in terms of financiers and like sort of people
Speaker 1: on the outside and around it, you know, you're sort
Speaker 1: of where you were being watched like this little ingenue
Speaker 1: trying to trying something on, and yeah, it was it
Speaker 1: was interesting, And it was interesting also to go from
Speaker 1: being an actress who people kind of humored to somebody
Speaker 1: who was in a position where, you know, you could
Speaker 1: really feel what people thought of you and felt about you,
Speaker 1: and it was it was healthy. But you know, a
Speaker 1: bit of a shocked bassist. Yeah, I bet at what
Speaker 1: point did you feel like you had earned people's respect? Well,
Speaker 1: you know, I'd made a bunch of short films at
Speaker 1: that point, and I'd slowly, through the crewing of those
Speaker 1: short films, found my people and found the people that
Speaker 1: we're like really trying to create a space for me
Speaker 1: to find myself as a filmmaker. So I found my
Speaker 1: D O P and my first A D and so
Speaker 1: I did feel like I had an incredibly supportive team
Speaker 1: when I was actually on the floor of that film,
Speaker 1: and Julie Christie and Olympdocacus like these were people who
Speaker 1: had been kind of mentoring me and pushing me forward.
Speaker 1: And I also think that I hugely benefited from those
Speaker 1: very un usual experience I had had, which is that
Speaker 1: I'd worked with a few female filmmakers as a young actor,
Speaker 1: which again it's not a big deal now to have
Speaker 1: worked with female filmmakers it was a really big deal then,
Speaker 1: like to have worked with Katherine Bigelow, to have worked
Speaker 1: with Isabel Quichet, to have these models, and as soon
Speaker 1: as I expressed the slightest interest in directing, they just
Speaker 1: sort of threw their bodies behind me and pushed, you know,
Speaker 1: like it was just like, you know, being a female
Speaker 1: filmmaker twenty years ago was really freaking hard. It's it's
Speaker 1: hard now, but it was a lot harder than and
Speaker 1: they were just like, here's okay, you're a dog with
Speaker 1: a bone. Don't let the bone go. Everyone's going to
Speaker 1: try to take away from you. Remember Catherine Bigge was
Speaker 1: like this, everyone will try to take the bone away
Speaker 1: from you. Hold onto the bone, and like it was
Speaker 1: such great advice, and that is kind of what it took.
Speaker 1: It was like people are trying to get the bone
Speaker 1: away one of the phone and Isabel just going okay,
Speaker 1: what's next, what's next? You know, Like there was this
Speaker 1: sense of women who are a bit older than me
Speaker 1: shoving me forward. And I think that's ultimately the real
Speaker 1: reason why I made a film in my mid twenties
Speaker 1: at a time when it was unusual for a young
Speaker 1: actress to make a film because I had had these
Speaker 1: female mentors, I had seen it modeled. They put that
Speaker 1: energy into encouraging me, and I think that's sort of everything.
Speaker 1: You know, when you are part of a group of
Speaker 1: people that's underrepresented, you need those people ahead of you
Speaker 1: and behind you shoving you forward. Yeah, and you need
Speaker 1: to not not let go of that bone. I want
Speaker 1: to come back to acting for just a second in
Speaker 1: your adult life, because in getting ready to talk to you,
Speaker 1: I watched this clip of you on a Canadian talk
Speaker 1: show called John Division from back in the day. I
Speaker 1: was like, I grew up in cann It's a beloved
Speaker 1: TV show and you're so cool on it. You're seventeen
Speaker 1: years old. And you said, um, I've am quoting you.
Speaker 1: I've never been a good actor or had this great talent.
Speaker 1: I've just sort of taken sides of myself at different
Speaker 1: times and toyed with them. But I don't think it's
Speaker 1: a great talent that's in my blood or something. And
Speaker 1: I heard that and I was like, wait, isn't that
Speaker 1: what acting? Is that what acting is for some people?
Speaker 1: I don't know what do you make of What do
Speaker 1: you make of that? Now that you've acted a lot
Speaker 1: as an adult and also directed other people. Yeah, that's
Speaker 1: so interesting. I don't know. I mean, yeah, I guess
Speaker 1: it can be what acting is, although it's funny, like
Speaker 1: I directed this film the summer called Women Talking, and
Speaker 1: the actors in this film were just machines, like they
Speaker 1: were acting machines like they were. It was Claire Foy
Speaker 1: and Jesse Buckley and Rooney Mara and Sheila McCarthy and
Speaker 1: Judith Ivy and Michelle McCloud and it was just like
Speaker 1: Ben Wishaw and Francis McDormand, and like they were just
Speaker 1: like these geniuses. And I was watching the way they
Speaker 1: were working, and I really do think there's something fundamentally
Speaker 1: different about what I used to do as an actor
Speaker 1: when I was acting on what they're doing. And I
Speaker 1: think what they're doing is like pushing themselves to like
Speaker 1: the absolute outer or limit of what is possible in
Speaker 1: terms of like embodying another human being and risking everything,
Speaker 1: like risking everything psychologically and emotionally to get where they
Speaker 1: need to go. I didn't do that as an actor.
Speaker 1: I mean, i'd like to think if I ever went
Speaker 1: back to acting one day, and I don't know if
Speaker 1: I will, but if I did that, I would be
Speaker 1: willing to take those kinds of risks with myself. But again,
Speaker 1: because of the experience I had as a child where
Speaker 1: I felt like both my emotions were kind of exploited
Speaker 1: and my physical safety was taken for granted, I had
Speaker 1: limits on what I was going to give. So I
Speaker 1: think I got good at doing a couple of things,
Speaker 1: you know, like I could. I could kind of had
Speaker 1: a couple of things I could do pretty well, but
Speaker 1: I didn't ever explode my sense of myself or risk
Speaker 1: myself to like embody an emotion I couldn't predict coming
Speaker 1: upon me in a scene, and watching great actors do
Speaker 1: that is electrifying. If I ever did go back to acting,
Speaker 1: I wouldn't do it unless I felt like I was
Speaker 1: prepared to do that. So I think that's maybe what
Speaker 1: I meant in that quote is like I was staying
Speaker 1: in a zone that was comfortable for me, and I
Speaker 1: think that I I would like to think if I
Speaker 1: could do that part of my life over that, I
Speaker 1: would I would push myself more in risk more. That's
Speaker 1: actor and author Sarah Paulli. If you like conversations with
Speaker 1: skilled actor turned directors, check out our episode with Maggie Gillenhall.
Speaker 1: The thing I like love about the few roles that
Speaker 1: I've done that I feel the most proud of. Um
Speaker 1: that I think I executed the best. I think are
Speaker 1: actually sort of the most human people, so maybe the
Speaker 1: most conventional in terms of being like we actually are.
Speaker 1: And I know the woman in the movie does things
Speaker 1: that many of us would never ever do, but in
Speaker 1: so many other ways I relate to her so much much.
Speaker 1: You can hear more of alex conversation with Maggie Gillenhall
Speaker 1: in our archives and Here's the Thing dot org. After
Speaker 1: the break, I talked to Sarah Paully about her decision
Speaker 1: to finally come forward with a me too story she's
Speaker 1: kept private for decades. Hey, I'm Talia sh Langer, and
Speaker 1: you're listening to Here's the Thing. In the nineties and
Speaker 1: the auts, Sarah Pauli was a celebrated actor. It seems
Speaker 1: like she was at the height of her career and
Speaker 1: she could have had any rules she wanted, but instead
Speaker 1: Sarah walked away from acting. I wanted to know why.
Speaker 1: This is one of these questions where like it's sort
Speaker 1: of like writing the essays in this book where I
Speaker 1: feel like I suddenly have a whole bunch of answers
Speaker 1: I didn't expect to have to that question, like, oh,
Speaker 1: I haven't unpacked this. I mean, on the one hand,
Speaker 1: it's like I had discovered directing and I was in
Speaker 1: love with writing and directing, and I was like, this
Speaker 1: is what my priority, he is, And so I always
Speaker 1: knew that was the the direction I was moving in.
Speaker 1: But why I stopped acting entirely was I had a
Speaker 1: couple of really bad experiences towards the end of my
Speaker 1: acting career um with uh, really insensitive people and really
Speaker 1: vulnerable situations where things were handled really badly and really insensitively,
Speaker 1: and I just had this moment where I thought, I'm
Speaker 1: not I'm not going to put myself in this kind
Speaker 1: of situation again. And it was like a time, you know,
Speaker 1: was this is pre me too, and pre these conversations
Speaker 1: about bullying on sets and safety on sets, which thank god,
Speaker 1: are happening finally, but at that time they weren't. And
Speaker 1: so I just thought, this behavior is going to go
Speaker 1: on forever, nobody's going to be accountable, and I'm just
Speaker 1: going to be expected to kind of suck it up.
Speaker 1: And I'm not going to do it anymore. And I've
Speaker 1: got this other job that I love, which is directing,
Speaker 1: where I have some agency over my working conditions and
Speaker 1: how I'm treated, and I'm just not gonna put myself
Speaker 1: in the line of fire anymore. So I removed myself
Speaker 1: based on a couple of really terrible experiences I had
Speaker 1: in a row. I also had a great experience that
Speaker 1: year working with Jacko vandr Mal who directed Mr. Nobody,
Speaker 1: who was the antithesis of that kind of filmmaker, was
Speaker 1: incredibly empathetic and sensitive and passionate, and people's experience making
Speaker 1: the film was far more important to him than the
Speaker 1: film itself, which is something I try to carry with me,
Speaker 1: like I just try to carry in my head because
Speaker 1: I said, how are you managing this? Like we're working
Speaker 1: such civilized hours, people have their kids coming to set.
Speaker 1: You seem to care so much about how everybody is doing, Like,
Speaker 1: how are you managing this? And he said, if this
Speaker 1: film is everything we wanted to be, it'll maybe affect
Speaker 1: a couple of people for a few weeks, hopefully, But
Speaker 1: what we know for certain is that the experience of
Speaker 1: making this film will be with all of us for
Speaker 1: the rest of our lives, so that has to be
Speaker 1: the priority. And I was like, that to me has
Speaker 1: just stayed with me. So it's really But I had
Speaker 1: a couple of other experiences that were really really depressing
Speaker 1: and demoralizing, just in terms of watching where people were
Speaker 1: putting their priorities and how much people couldn't pay attention
Speaker 1: to other people's well being in the middle of of
Speaker 1: making a film. So I went and made my own
Speaker 1: films and was very very happy to do so. I
Speaker 1: had this discussion recently with someone on set where like
Speaker 1: there had been this moment where someone hadn't behaved that well,
Speaker 1: and someone said to me, you know, if that person
Speaker 1: didn't behave that way, you might not be getting the
Speaker 1: job that you wanted, Like that might be what contributes
Speaker 1: to their ability to do their job. And I remember
Speaker 1: saying and I didn't even know I felt this way,
Speaker 1: but the words just like popped out of my mouth
Speaker 1: and I just went Nobody asked me what my priority was,
Speaker 1: like if someone had said to me, you could have
Speaker 1: less of a film. But people, we'll be behaving well
Speaker 1: towards other and treating each other decently, and like that's
Speaker 1: the choice, I absolutely will vote for the latter every
Speaker 1: single time. Like I want to make great films. I'm
Speaker 1: super ambitious for the films that I do make. But
Speaker 1: given the choice, I don't choose the genius over the
Speaker 1: well being. Ever, I will never accept talent as an
Speaker 1: excuse for bullshit. I just won't do it. I don't
Speaker 1: have it in me anymore. And it seems, I mean,
Speaker 1: it seems maybe like people are shifting towards that a
Speaker 1: little bit more as we're opening up these conversations. Maybe
Speaker 1: I think they are. I mean, I think I think
Speaker 1: this is like kind of something I didn't ever expect
Speaker 1: to even see happen, Like in my life, you'vened about
Speaker 1: sexual harassment, Like I just thought, this is something we're
Speaker 1: stuck with, Like I didn't think to say anything about
Speaker 1: it or to you know, you just this was the
Speaker 1: landscape we lived. And so it is amazing to see
Speaker 1: these conversations open up. I'm really excited to see them
Speaker 1: open up more in industries where there isn't a huge
Speaker 1: spotlight shown on them. I mean, I hope that we
Speaker 1: can see a continued progress with this, because it's it's
Speaker 1: a lot easier for us to complain about it given
Speaker 1: the platforms we have. Yeah, well, let's talk, um, if
Speaker 1: you would, about the second essay in the book, which
Speaker 1: is called The Woman Who Stayed Silent. And as much
Speaker 1: as I want to talk about this essay with you,
Speaker 1: I also I want people to read every single word
Speaker 1: of it. The way that you've crafted it, the depth
Speaker 1: of the story that you're telling, and the nuance that
Speaker 1: you're able to bring to the thinking around this essay
Speaker 1: I think is so important. And if you don't mind,
Speaker 1: Sarah's just setting up with the premise of the chapter
Speaker 1: as as much as you're comfortable. Sure, you know, this
Speaker 1: essay took years to write and to think about and
Speaker 1: to choose the exact words for and so really the
Speaker 1: the entirety of the essay itself is the best answer
Speaker 1: to any question about it. But that said, what it
Speaker 1: is about is an experience that I had when I
Speaker 1: was sixteen years old with Gian Gameshi, who was acquitted
Speaker 1: of sexually assaulting multiple women. Just stepping out of the
Speaker 1: interview here for a moment. Gian Gameshi is a Canadian broadcaster.
Speaker 1: He was a prominent radio host at the CBC until
Speaker 1: that year. He was the subject of several sexual assault allegations,
Speaker 1: Gameshi was charged, went to trial and was ultimately acquitted
Speaker 1: of all charges. In and just so you have the
Speaker 1: heads up, the following conversation will contain discussions of circumstances
Speaker 1: surrounding sexual assault. Okay, back to Sarah and the allegations
Speaker 1: when they came forward. We're a really big news story
Speaker 1: in Canada, and I had to make a decision about
Speaker 1: whether or not to come forward. And I spent a
Speaker 1: really long time and a lot of hours with my newborn,
Speaker 1: you know, strapped to me and the carrier and my
Speaker 1: toddler with me asking everybody I knew, and I know
Speaker 1: a lot of lawyers and a lot of people work
Speaker 1: in the criminal justice STU been asking them if I
Speaker 1: should come forward because I felt a deep obligation to
Speaker 1: support the women who had come forward, whose stories sounded
Speaker 1: very similar to my own, And the advice I was
Speaker 1: given across the board was to not come forward, because
Speaker 1: every lawyer I met, but for one, said they would
Speaker 1: never advise a woman that they loved to come forward
Speaker 1: in a sexual assault case based on how are jewous
Speaker 1: and difficult the encounter of the criminal justice system would be,
Speaker 1: how long it would drag on how close so many
Speaker 1: people came to suicide by the time the process was over,
Speaker 1: and knowing what I did about what would lie ahead
Speaker 1: of me and coming forward and having two little kids,
Speaker 1: I made the decision to stay silent. It was a
Speaker 1: really hard decision on a lot of levels. And I
Speaker 1: think the contribution that I wanted to make now, this
Speaker 1: many years later, with having had years to think about
Speaker 1: how I would tell this story, is to shine a
Speaker 1: light on the parallels between the inconsistencies that were pointed
Speaker 1: out in those women's stories and the holes that were
Speaker 1: poked in their memories and characters and my own, Because
Speaker 1: everything that was lobbed at those women on the stand
Speaker 1: in terms of them not be being reliable witnesses to
Speaker 1: the truth, would have been lobbed at me. And the
Speaker 1: impact that trauma has on memory, the way it makes
Speaker 1: us unreliable narrators of the details before and after an
Speaker 1: experience like this, and the way that makes our entire
Speaker 1: stories seem not credible, seemed like a worthwhile contribution because
Speaker 1: what happens when women enter into or anybody with an
Speaker 1: allegation like this, what happens to people when they're on
Speaker 1: the stand, is these inconsistencies, and these problems in our
Speaker 1: memories get lobbed as at us as evidence that the
Speaker 1: thing itself didn't happen. And so my my idea was,
Speaker 1: what if I offer all of that stuff? What if
Speaker 1: I offer up everything I would be cross examined with
Speaker 1: my friendly encounters with him afterwards, my friendly emails with him,
Speaker 1: the way in which my memory didn't capture this part
Speaker 1: or that part at various stages. What if I offered
Speaker 1: the whole, embarrassing, messy, completely commonplace picture of what a
Speaker 1: memory and what an account after a traumatic experience like
Speaker 1: this looks like, hopefully to shine a light on and
Speaker 1: maybe add credibility to all of those people who have
Speaker 1: been discounted because of these inconsistencies. Because at this point
Speaker 1: I don't have a lot to gain by telling the story.
Speaker 1: It's not particularly fun to tell this story, I bet yeah,
Speaker 1: But I feel like there's some contribution to be made
Speaker 1: in saying, here are all the embarrassing parts, and I'm
Speaker 1: still telling the truth. Here all the inconsistencies, and I'm
Speaker 1: still telling the truth. Here is all the mess of
Speaker 1: my memory and why I seem like a total flake,
Speaker 1: and I'm still telling the truth, and so many people
Speaker 1: who have come forward in cases like this have been
Speaker 1: discounted as flake here are not credible because of these details,
Speaker 1: which I think are so commonplace, and I think most
Speaker 1: people who have had experience like this don't actually come
Speaker 1: forward and we don't hear from them, and so I
Speaker 1: kind of wanted to shine a light on what that
Speaker 1: experience looks like and why a point that you made
Speaker 1: here that I have not heard made nearly enough that
Speaker 1: you that you also just sort of hinted at is
Speaker 1: the idea of how people who have been through traumatic
Speaker 1: experiences with somebody can exhibit confusing behavior after the fact.
Speaker 1: And one of the things that you write about is
Speaker 1: being interviewed by Jon who hosting I was working at
Speaker 1: the CBC at that time also, I should say, and
Speaker 1: he was hosting an arts and culture show where he
Speaker 1: interviewed you about, you know, your work, and you write
Speaker 1: in this essay about sort of watching clips of yourself
Speaker 1: and how you diminished yourself in front of him or
Speaker 1: or were giggly or we're sort of warm towards him,
Speaker 1: and you wrote this is a quote. It can seem
Speaker 1: perplexing from the outside, this pool that many women experience
Speaker 1: to make things better for those who have hurt us.
Speaker 1: M hm. And you're such a powerful and talented person,
Speaker 1: it must have taken a lot to say that, and
Speaker 1: then so many of us do this. So where do
Speaker 1: you think that this behavior comes from. I think it
Speaker 1: comes from a lot of places. I think it can
Speaker 1: come from a desire to normalize a situation that's very
Speaker 1: very hard to process, and that's living in a very
Speaker 1: jaggedy place inside us, and to try to make it
Speaker 1: so that it didn't happen. In my case, I think
Speaker 1: it came from fear. I think I was really scared
Speaker 1: of him, and I was really scared of how many
Speaker 1: could be because you know, even in the years following that,
Speaker 1: every time I saw him, he had something mean to say.
Speaker 1: And when somebody has something mean to say to you,
Speaker 1: but the history of your relationship with that person is
Speaker 1: one that was terrifying and violent, that has a different meaning,
Speaker 1: and it affects you and goes through you in a
Speaker 1: different way. So I think I was doing everything I
Speaker 1: could to make things nice for him and to make
Speaker 1: um myself not threatening. I think that people underestimate how
Speaker 1: circuitous behavior can become when we're afraid and when we
Speaker 1: don't know how to process a situation. And at that time,
Speaker 1: there wasn't the same language for these kinds of experiences.
Speaker 1: So it's like we weren't all throwing the word assault around,
Speaker 1: you know what, I mean, Like it was like, what
Speaker 1: the hell happened? I don't know. So I think that
Speaker 1: you know, we know now there's a huge body of
Speaker 1: research that shows us that memory is really fray cured
Speaker 1: by trauma. It's not consistent. We don't remember everything perfectly.
Speaker 1: I mean, I can't count the number of people I
Speaker 1: know who have, after a very terrifying experience with somebody,
Speaker 1: have been nice to them afterwards and it will have
Speaker 1: maintained contact. I mean, I'm I'm sure that a huge
Speaker 1: percentage of these kinds of experiences that happen, there's contact
Speaker 1: that is friendly and that is perplexing from the outside afterwards.
Speaker 1: And I think that if we can't make room for
Speaker 1: the mess of that, we're not going to be hearing
Speaker 1: these stories the way we should be, you know. And
Speaker 1: I think what was what was really hurting about the
Speaker 1: Harvey Weinstein case was there was an expert call to
Speaker 1: talk about the impact that trauma has on memory to
Speaker 1: talk about typical post assault behavior, which can include contact
Speaker 1: like this, and that was a real service. But in
Speaker 1: in the Younga Messi case in Canada, there was no
Speaker 1: such witness called, and those women I feel were really
Speaker 1: hung out to dry and their behavior was made to
Speaker 1: look flaky instead of completely normal. Yeah, it was three
Speaker 1: years before the Harvey Weinstein case. They were also they
Speaker 1: were humiliated. Um the title of the essay, the woman
Speaker 1: who stayed silent carries a weight to it. I guess
Speaker 1: a weight of reckoning with that decision. How are you
Speaker 1: feeling about that decision? I'm feeling good now. I've been
Speaker 1: dreading it. I've been dreading it a lot. I've always
Speaker 1: known I was going to have to tell this story
Speaker 1: at some point and really regretting that because I was.
Speaker 1: I was really scared. I would say that the response
Speaker 1: has been really surprising to me, just the number of
Speaker 1: women who have said, yeah, like this is why I
Speaker 1: didn't come forward in this case. I think if we
Speaker 1: can develop a language around this and have a conversation
Speaker 1: around this where it becomes really understood that people aren't
Speaker 1: going to behave like a cartoon character would after something
Speaker 1: like this happens, to us. I think that's that's an
Speaker 1: exciting conversation to be part of because I think it
Speaker 1: opens the door for a lot of conversations that have
Speaker 1: been hidden to come out. You Know, my question, which
Speaker 1: I ask in the essay is how many women didn't
Speaker 1: come forward in the Harvey Weinstein case, how many women
Speaker 1: didn't come forward in the Gianga Mashi case? Like, we'll
Speaker 1: never know that, but I would hope that if there's
Speaker 1: more of a language and more of a conversation around
Speaker 1: what behavior and memory looks like after trauma, I would
Speaker 1: hope that more people will feel comfortable at some point
Speaker 1: telling these stories about their various traumatic encounters that they've
Speaker 1: had over the years. There are a couple instances in
Speaker 1: in the book where it's it's very clear that the
Speaker 1: very systems that are set up to protect people really
Speaker 1: fail them, you know, in the what you expose about
Speaker 1: the criminal justice system and how it can deal with
Speaker 1: sexual assault cases, also in terms of your experience as
Speaker 1: a child actor and unions that are set up to
Speaker 1: allegedly protect you or who's watching out for you on set,
Speaker 1: and I would understand having experience with the failure of
Speaker 1: those systems firsthand. Could make one a cynical person, but
Speaker 1: it seems to have made you to be a more
Speaker 1: curious person and a more engaged person. Is that fair
Speaker 1: to say? And if so, like, what is it about
Speaker 1: you that that makes that your inclination? Thank you? I'm
Speaker 1: glad that's how come across. I mean, I am curious,
Speaker 1: and I think I'm curious because I fundamentally don't believe
Speaker 1: that there are that many people in this world who
Speaker 1: mean harm. I mean, I think there are a lot
Speaker 1: of people who do harm. I don't think there are
Speaker 1: a lot of people who mean to I guess that
Speaker 1: gives me a certain amount of hope that things can
Speaker 1: shift and change based on conversation and open curiosity. Like
Speaker 1: I actually just have an enormous amount of faith that
Speaker 1: if people knew how to do better, they would like
Speaker 1: even the experience of putting this essay out into the world,
Speaker 1: which I've been dreading for years, and you know, I
Speaker 1: thought that what I would receive was a lot of judgment,
Speaker 1: you know, for not coming forward earlier. I certainly felt
Speaker 1: for myself. So to have that greeted with understanding and
Speaker 1: a conversation and you kind of go like, oh my God,
Speaker 1: like people have a lot of room like people, people
Speaker 1: can be tolerant and expansive and drop their judgment, and
Speaker 1: that's hopeful. I just I mean, even like the people
Speaker 1: in this book, Like I feel like people are kind
Speaker 1: of really interested in telling horror stories about Terry Gilliam
Speaker 1: and I certainly have a few of my own, But
Speaker 1: I I actually don't think he's a monster, and I'm
Speaker 1: I'm not interested in vilifying him, And I'm actually most
Speaker 1: interested to know if there'll ever be a shift in
Speaker 1: that person because he has a really creative brain. He's
Speaker 1: really interesting, he's really alive. There's a real goodness in him.
Speaker 1: That creative energy has not been directed towards his absorption
Speaker 1: of conversations that go in a progressive direction. There's like
Speaker 1: there's a real creative failure in the way he's approaching
Speaker 1: these things. But it's there, Like he's not a monster,
Speaker 1: so you know, he's eighty now, I don't know, like,
Speaker 1: how will you see things in a year? Like we
Speaker 1: can give up on people, it's fair. I think there's
Speaker 1: a lot of evidence to support the end of giving
Speaker 1: up on something like that, but I kind of don't
Speaker 1: want to because I've seen the side of him that
Speaker 1: actually does have empathy. I've seen the side of him
Speaker 1: that's enormously creative, and so I think, like even the
Speaker 1: people I talked about in this book in a not
Speaker 1: flattering way, I'm just not willing to give up just
Speaker 1: it may sound naive, but I also think it's like,
Speaker 1: I don't know how you go forward like without that
Speaker 1: belief that that that's possible. That's writer and director Sarah Paully.
Speaker 1: If you're enjoying this conversation, make sure you subscribe to
Speaker 1: Here's the Thing on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. When we come back,
Speaker 1: you'll hear what happened when Sarah Paully turned the tables
Speaker 1: and asked me a question, one that caught me off guard.
Speaker 1: I'm Talia Schlanger. You're listening to Here's the Thing from
Speaker 1: my Heart Radio. I've been speaking with actor, director and
Speaker 1: writer Sarah Polly, whose new book Run Towards the Danger
Speaker 1: reveals some of the more harrowing stories from a life
Speaker 1: lived on stage and screen. As you can tell by
Speaker 1: this point, Sarah Polly is a pretty insightful person, and
Speaker 1: I guess something in the way I asked her about
Speaker 1: her story involving Gian Gomeshi gave her a sense I
Speaker 1: might have a story to tell too, So just as
Speaker 1: we were about to wrap our conversation, she said this,
Speaker 1: can I ask you a question. I'm curious, like, how
Speaker 1: would you describe your reasons for not coming forward? Well,
Speaker 1: I was not assaulted by Jian Gomeshi. Um, And I
Speaker 1: did participate in the investigation internally at CBC that was
Speaker 1: conducted to contribute to evidence of like a pattern of behavior.
Speaker 1: I was an intern. I wanted to be at the
Speaker 1: CBC because of him. Uh. I dreamed of that show
Speaker 1: and I felt so much shame about when he took
Speaker 1: a shining to me going out with him, going to
Speaker 1: his house, and the way he interacted with me physically
Speaker 1: in one of those situations. My entire body was like,
Speaker 1: you need to get away from this man and you
Speaker 1: need to not see him again. Um And I told
Speaker 1: him so. And I was very scared about the first
Speaker 1: time I'm telling this story, uh publicly. I was scared
Speaker 1: for my career, um and for myself. And he was
Speaker 1: extremely powerful at CBC. You know, there was like a
Speaker 1: two story high photograph of his face that I saw
Speaker 1: every single time I walked into that building. And I
Speaker 1: was fresh out of school. So when there was an
Speaker 1: investigation at cbc UM, they asked for people to speak
Speaker 1: to the lawyer who was conducting it, and I saw
Speaker 1: off for myself also the amount of shame that I
Speaker 1: felt even in telling her why I went out with
Speaker 1: him on a date. It was scary enough to go
Speaker 1: through that without having been assaulted, but I can't imagine,
Speaker 1: Like I just got a little glimpse into what it
Speaker 1: might be like to come forward for something like this.
Speaker 1: And then I got I remember I got back to
Speaker 1: my desk and there was an email from our union
Speaker 1: that said, just so you know, if your managers find
Speaker 1: out you took part in this investigation, we don't have
Speaker 1: a lot of ability to protect you. Oh my god.
Speaker 1: And I just remember thinking, all my career in Canadian
Speaker 1: media is over and that's fine. It changed the way
Speaker 1: I am in the workplace for sure, and I got
Speaker 1: really lucky, yeah, and also felt so much shame, so
Speaker 1: much shame. Yeah, it's amazing how we get left with
Speaker 1: the shame instead of the person who's done the really
Speaker 1: awful thing. You know. It's such a And then we
Speaker 1: have I mean, that's one story from a whole lifetime,
Speaker 1: so you know, like that's that's that's that, that's that
Speaker 1: part of things. So but that is the other thing too,
Speaker 1: is you're kind of like, I'm focusing on this story
Speaker 1: because I want to, you know, I want to show
Speaker 1: what the similarities were between my story and these other
Speaker 1: women's stories. But it's like it's not even on the
Speaker 1: scale of things that have happened in my life. I'm
Speaker 1: not sure how much anything, you know that's like what's terrible.
Speaker 1: It's like this, sorry, guys, this isn't actually the big
Speaker 1: trauma on this issue, but that will be in the
Speaker 1: next book maybe. Like it's just like, I mean, it's
Speaker 1: just this war zone, you know, like bi female in
Speaker 1: a professional environment. It's so messed up. It's so messed up.
Speaker 1: It's really messed up. Yeah, and what we've absorbed as
Speaker 1: normal or or just something we have to plow through,
Speaker 1: and we're kind of privileged, like we have these tough
Speaker 1: forms and like this is not even close to the
Speaker 1: as bad as it gets. It's just to even feel
Speaker 1: empowered enough to be able to say, well, if this
Speaker 1: ruins my career, I lose my job. I know, that
Speaker 1: I'll still be okay and I'll find another way around.
Speaker 1: That's an enormous and enormous privilege. Absolutely, Yeah, I feel
Speaker 1: very emotional after what you just told me. So do I.
Speaker 1: I'm grateful to you for asking. I feel I've interviewed
Speaker 1: a lot of people, and people um never, I think
Speaker 1: that's the first time I've been asked a question. Well,
Speaker 1: I could see your face and when you like you.
Speaker 1: At some point when I was talking, you started closing
Speaker 1: your eyes, and then I could see when you were talking.
Speaker 1: I could kind of sense what you weren't saying, and
Speaker 1: so I was like, I didn't want to intrude, but
Speaker 1: I also just wanted to open the space to talk
Speaker 1: a little bit because I, yeah, there's just so many
Speaker 1: people out there who carried these stories around, and I
Speaker 1: think the shame part is just such an important piece
Speaker 1: of the conversation because it's what that's what creates this
Speaker 1: kind of toxic silence around it. You know, thank you
Speaker 1: so much. I could keep here for days and ask
Speaker 1: you a thousand more questions. I'm so tremendously rateful to
Speaker 1: you for writing this book and also for working in
Speaker 1: your career to make things better. Thank you. Thank you
Speaker 1: so much, what a pleasure this was. Thank you. I
Speaker 1: just want to make it clear, Sarah Pauli and I
Speaker 1: had never spoken before this interview, and I had no
Speaker 1: plans to tell my story, certainly not on this podcast.
Speaker 1: But Sarah asked the question, and so I answered. And again,
Speaker 1: I'm not alleging that gian Gameshi did anything illegal towards me.
Speaker 1: That was just my experience of interacting with someone in
Speaker 1: a position of power, and I wanted to share how
Speaker 1: that impacted the way I felt about myself and about
Speaker 1: my career, especially in light of Sarah being so open
Speaker 1: and sharing her own story. We reached out to Gian
Speaker 1: Gameshi's team for comment and did not receive a response.
Speaker 1: Survivors of sexual assault can reach out to the National
Speaker 1: Sexual Assault Hotline at one eight hundred six five six
Speaker 1: four six seven three. That's one eight hundred six five
Speaker 1: six hope. My sincere thanks to Sarah Poulli for an
Speaker 1: unexpected conversation. This episode was produced by Kathleen Russo, Zach McNeice,
Speaker 1: and Maureen Hoban. Our engineer is Frank Imperial. I'm Talia Schlanger.
Speaker 1: Alec Baldwin will be back next week here's the thing.
Speaker 1: Is brought to you by I Heart Radio