1 00:00:02,160 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Talia Schlanger and you're listening to Here's 2 00:00:04,680 --> 00:00:08,240 Speaker 1: the Thing from My Heart Radio. My guest today can't 3 00:00:08,240 --> 00:00:12,880 Speaker 1: help but excel at everything she does, from acting to directing, 4 00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:17,239 Speaker 1: writing features to making documentaries. She is celebrated in so 5 00:00:17,280 --> 00:00:21,880 Speaker 1: many different circles. It's the multi talented Sarah Polly. As 6 00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:25,400 Speaker 1: a child actor, Polly starred in films like Terry Gilliams, 7 00:00:25,400 --> 00:00:29,680 Speaker 1: The Adventures of Baron Munchausen and the beloved CBC series 8 00:00:29,800 --> 00:00:32,920 Speaker 1: Rode to Avonlea. She moved on to acclaimed rolls in 9 00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:36,479 Speaker 1: The Sweet Hereafter Go and Dawn of the Dead. In 10 00:00:36,520 --> 00:00:39,240 Speaker 1: her twenties, she made the move to writing and directing. 11 00:00:39,479 --> 00:00:42,280 Speaker 1: Her first film away from her started Julie Christie and 12 00:00:42,320 --> 00:00:46,239 Speaker 1: Olympia Ducacus and earned Polly an Academy Award nomination for 13 00:00:46,320 --> 00:00:49,159 Speaker 1: Best Adapted Screenplay as well as a Genie Award for 14 00:00:49,240 --> 00:00:53,000 Speaker 1: Best Direction. Since then, she has continued to write and 15 00:00:53,080 --> 00:00:56,760 Speaker 1: direct for TV and film, and she branched into documentary 16 00:00:56,800 --> 00:00:59,800 Speaker 1: with Stories We Tell, the film about her family history. 17 00:01:00,440 --> 00:01:03,920 Speaker 1: Poully can now add author to her growing list of accomplishments. 18 00:01:04,280 --> 00:01:07,360 Speaker 1: She recently released her first book, It's called Run Towards 19 00:01:07,360 --> 00:01:11,000 Speaker 1: the Danger, Confrontations with a body of memory, and it's 20 00:01:11,040 --> 00:01:14,759 Speaker 1: a pretty stunning collection of essays exploring some difficult chapters 21 00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:17,720 Speaker 1: in her life. Sarah Paully told me what it means 22 00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:21,280 Speaker 1: to run towards the danger. Well, the first time I 23 00:01:21,400 --> 00:01:24,680 Speaker 1: heard that was from a Dr Mickey Collins at the 24 00:01:24,760 --> 00:01:28,039 Speaker 1: University of Pittsburgh Medical Center, and I had had a 25 00:01:28,040 --> 00:01:31,200 Speaker 1: pretty serious concussion, very serious concussion. I mean, for the 26 00:01:31,280 --> 00:01:34,440 Speaker 1: first year I wasn't able to do much at all, 27 00:01:34,760 --> 00:01:37,480 Speaker 1: and then I would have periods that were better than others, 28 00:01:37,520 --> 00:01:41,160 Speaker 1: as long as I managed my stimulation while and didn't 29 00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:44,040 Speaker 1: have too much noise or light. But basically it altered 30 00:01:44,080 --> 00:01:46,720 Speaker 1: my life and made me unable to do a lot 31 00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:49,560 Speaker 1: of the things I've been able to do, and unable 32 00:01:49,560 --> 00:01:51,040 Speaker 1: to handle a lot of the things I've been able 33 00:01:51,080 --> 00:01:55,320 Speaker 1: to handle. I eventually ended up with Dr Mickey Collins 34 00:01:55,400 --> 00:01:58,000 Speaker 1: in Pittsburgh, and I remember him saying to me in 35 00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:01,680 Speaker 1: that first meeting, if you remember only one thing from 36 00:02:01,680 --> 00:02:05,920 Speaker 1: this meeting, remember this run towards the danger. And what 37 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:09,600 Speaker 1: he meant by that was a kind of paradigm shift 38 00:02:09,639 --> 00:02:12,000 Speaker 1: in terms of how to recover from a concussion. So 39 00:02:12,280 --> 00:02:13,799 Speaker 1: a lot of the advice you get when you have 40 00:02:13,840 --> 00:02:16,600 Speaker 1: a concussion is to rest, to listen to your body, 41 00:02:16,680 --> 00:02:19,560 Speaker 1: to slow down. The better concussion doctors will tell you 42 00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:22,920 Speaker 1: to exercise, but when you feel like your symptoms are 43 00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:27,000 Speaker 1: becoming too much, go rest or do something else. And 44 00:02:27,120 --> 00:02:29,640 Speaker 1: his advice was really different from that. His advice was, 45 00:02:30,040 --> 00:02:32,200 Speaker 1: the things that are hard for you, the things that 46 00:02:32,200 --> 00:02:35,840 Speaker 1: are causing you discomfort and pain because of your concussion, 47 00:02:35,840 --> 00:02:37,480 Speaker 1: are the things you actually need to do more of 48 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:40,720 Speaker 1: because your brain has become weaker and weaker at handling 49 00:02:40,760 --> 00:02:43,440 Speaker 1: these things. Because of this, you know the way you've 50 00:02:43,480 --> 00:02:48,239 Speaker 1: been protecting yourself. So this was of course scaffolded with 51 00:02:48,280 --> 00:02:52,040 Speaker 1: a lot of like vestibular exercises and physical exercises, and 52 00:02:52,120 --> 00:02:55,880 Speaker 1: every treatment he gives is different. But the notion of 53 00:02:56,400 --> 00:03:00,560 Speaker 1: moving towards what causes you discomfort instead of away from 54 00:03:00,639 --> 00:03:04,799 Speaker 1: it being a key ingredient to healing was a really 55 00:03:04,840 --> 00:03:07,240 Speaker 1: new concept for me, and then one that kind of 56 00:03:07,240 --> 00:03:09,880 Speaker 1: exploded out into all of these other areas of my 57 00:03:09,960 --> 00:03:13,560 Speaker 1: life and became, in a way, the genesis for bringing 58 00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:16,519 Speaker 1: all of these essays together into this book. Also, I 59 00:03:16,520 --> 00:03:18,880 Speaker 1: should say at that time, you had two small kids, 60 00:03:18,919 --> 00:03:22,840 Speaker 1: like you're juggling a lot of things while you're trying 61 00:03:22,880 --> 00:03:25,680 Speaker 1: to take on this this advice of confronting the pain 62 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:28,080 Speaker 1: or pushing past what you think your threshold is. And 63 00:03:28,120 --> 00:03:29,880 Speaker 1: it's one thing to do that on a physical level, 64 00:03:29,880 --> 00:03:31,320 Speaker 1: but then it's a whole little thing to do that 65 00:03:31,400 --> 00:03:34,440 Speaker 1: on an emotional level with stories like you've done with 66 00:03:34,639 --> 00:03:38,520 Speaker 1: this book. What was the process like for you of 67 00:03:38,600 --> 00:03:42,520 Speaker 1: pushing past the threshold to get these stories out. I mean, 68 00:03:42,560 --> 00:03:44,600 Speaker 1: it was a long one and kind of it was 69 00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:46,480 Speaker 1: a bit of a windy road. I mean, I'd been 70 00:03:46,520 --> 00:03:49,120 Speaker 1: writing some of these essays for twenty years and didn't 71 00:03:49,160 --> 00:03:52,320 Speaker 1: have the courage to either finish them or to share them, 72 00:03:52,480 --> 00:03:54,520 Speaker 1: or I would, you know, write a few paragraphs and 73 00:03:54,520 --> 00:03:56,880 Speaker 1: put it away for years and then pull it out again. 74 00:03:57,000 --> 00:03:59,920 Speaker 1: I mean, the stories in this book were some of 75 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:02,480 Speaker 1: the hardest stories for me to look at that I've 76 00:04:02,520 --> 00:04:06,200 Speaker 1: ever experienced. The ones that were pivotal, the ones that 77 00:04:06,280 --> 00:04:08,720 Speaker 1: hurt the most, the ones that I wasn't even sure 78 00:04:08,800 --> 00:04:12,040 Speaker 1: what the shape of the narrative was. Those stories that 79 00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:15,120 Speaker 1: leave you with a kind of confusion that you haul 80 00:04:15,200 --> 00:04:18,640 Speaker 1: along with you. These were those stories for me. So 81 00:04:19,360 --> 00:04:22,279 Speaker 1: this idea of running towards the danger began um taking 82 00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:26,200 Speaker 1: on the form of, you know, opening these word documents 83 00:04:26,240 --> 00:04:29,120 Speaker 1: that I kept shutting or had put away or even 84 00:04:29,120 --> 00:04:31,360 Speaker 1: like hidden myself in files and the combune where they 85 00:04:31,360 --> 00:04:35,159 Speaker 1: were hard to find, and going, what is it about 86 00:04:35,240 --> 00:04:38,880 Speaker 1: this that's making me so scared to continue the story, 87 00:04:39,080 --> 00:04:41,919 Speaker 1: or to finish the story, or to even read what 88 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:46,039 Speaker 1: I've written. And those became the stories I became most 89 00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:49,280 Speaker 1: determined to tell, no matter how hard they were. Why 90 00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:51,880 Speaker 1: I determined to tell them for yourself, for your own exorcism, 91 00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:55,840 Speaker 1: or for the benefit of others, or a combination. I 92 00:04:55,880 --> 00:04:57,680 Speaker 1: think some of them I didn't know why I was 93 00:04:57,720 --> 00:04:59,680 Speaker 1: writing them. I mean, some of these essays. There's one 94 00:04:59,680 --> 00:05:03,040 Speaker 1: about stage fright and scoliosis and my mother dying, and 95 00:05:03,520 --> 00:05:05,520 Speaker 1: you know, a thousand other things. The first essay, which 96 00:05:05,560 --> 00:05:08,680 Speaker 1: is called Alice Collapsing, which I wrote when I was 97 00:05:09,240 --> 00:05:13,240 Speaker 1: eighteen and twenty three and thirty three and forty, like 98 00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:16,080 Speaker 1: it's written by four different people. Like, I don't think 99 00:05:16,120 --> 00:05:18,200 Speaker 1: I knew why I was writing that story when I 100 00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:20,680 Speaker 1: started it, and by the time I was writing at forty, 101 00:05:20,760 --> 00:05:25,440 Speaker 1: I probably did. I think all of them became for 102 00:05:25,560 --> 00:05:28,440 Speaker 1: me interesting ways of looking at the way the past 103 00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:31,719 Speaker 1: and the present relate to each other the way I 104 00:05:31,760 --> 00:05:33,520 Speaker 1: think we are all very well acquainted now with the 105 00:05:33,560 --> 00:05:36,919 Speaker 1: idea that our past and childhood experiences inform our present life. 106 00:05:37,600 --> 00:05:40,920 Speaker 1: I guess I also hope that like this notion that 107 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:46,240 Speaker 1: childhood trauma or experience are difficult experiences from another time 108 00:05:46,279 --> 00:05:49,560 Speaker 1: in your life, aren't static. They don't have to live 109 00:05:49,600 --> 00:05:52,960 Speaker 1: there always as these ticking time bombs or these jaggedy 110 00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:57,240 Speaker 1: sharp things that like, if you get to live a 111 00:05:57,320 --> 00:06:00,359 Speaker 1: life where stories that echo those story is go a 112 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:04,240 Speaker 1: different better way. Those stories can become lighter, like, those 113 00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:06,280 Speaker 1: stories can become easier to carry, Those stories can have 114 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:08,640 Speaker 1: in the end a totally different meaning to you than 115 00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:11,279 Speaker 1: they have now. Like those stories that feel so static 116 00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:16,000 Speaker 1: and hard and rigid in your stomach can actually loosen 117 00:06:16,920 --> 00:06:22,719 Speaker 1: um and become more flexible and interesting if you can 118 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:26,200 Speaker 1: kind of dive in and pull the threads and be curious. 119 00:06:26,640 --> 00:06:30,480 Speaker 1: So I think for me, that's what the the recovery 120 00:06:30,560 --> 00:06:33,080 Speaker 1: process with all of these stories looked like for me 121 00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:36,960 Speaker 1: was the diving in and the being conscious of the 122 00:06:36,960 --> 00:06:39,800 Speaker 1: past in the present life. Having the present life go 123 00:06:39,880 --> 00:06:43,920 Speaker 1: a different way actually meant the past looks and feels 124 00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:46,800 Speaker 1: differently to me. Now. The subtitle of the book is 125 00:06:46,960 --> 00:06:50,240 Speaker 1: Confrontations with a Body of Memory. And when we talk 126 00:06:50,279 --> 00:06:54,240 Speaker 1: about the literal body that you're confronting in this book, 127 00:06:54,279 --> 00:06:57,640 Speaker 1: you've already mentioned a concussion scoliosis, which you are diagnosed 128 00:06:57,680 --> 00:07:00,160 Speaker 1: with at age eleven, being in a hard plus dig 129 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:02,080 Speaker 1: brace at a time of puberty when your body is changing. 130 00:07:02,200 --> 00:07:04,200 Speaker 1: But also for you, at a time when you're starting 131 00:07:04,200 --> 00:07:07,400 Speaker 1: on a television show and day in and day out 132 00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:09,480 Speaker 1: you are being looked at by people and people are 133 00:07:09,520 --> 00:07:12,840 Speaker 1: putting clothes on you and and fitting you for things. Um, 134 00:07:12,920 --> 00:07:15,080 Speaker 1: how did that diagnosis looking back on it now, how 135 00:07:15,080 --> 00:07:20,480 Speaker 1: did that diagnosis shape your relationship to your physical body? Yeah, 136 00:07:20,520 --> 00:07:23,000 Speaker 1: I mean the thing that complicated the experience for me, 137 00:07:23,080 --> 00:07:25,600 Speaker 1: and I think it's complicated for any person who goes 138 00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:27,600 Speaker 1: through this as a kid. But the thing that complicated 139 00:07:27,640 --> 00:07:30,400 Speaker 1: for me was I was living a very public life 140 00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:32,400 Speaker 1: and I was on the lead in the TV show, 141 00:07:32,440 --> 00:07:34,920 Speaker 1: and at a certain point I was also you know, 142 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:38,480 Speaker 1: on stage at Stratford, and so you know, there were 143 00:07:38,560 --> 00:07:40,640 Speaker 1: long costume fittings of like how do we make her 144 00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:43,520 Speaker 1: body look normal? Or how do we accommodate the costumes 145 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:46,040 Speaker 1: to fit this brace. So it was a very public 146 00:07:46,160 --> 00:07:50,160 Speaker 1: display of what was already a very uncomfortable and somewhat 147 00:07:50,240 --> 00:07:53,560 Speaker 1: humiliating experience. So the way I dealt with that was 148 00:07:53,600 --> 00:07:56,000 Speaker 1: just separating who I was from what was happening to 149 00:07:56,040 --> 00:07:58,400 Speaker 1: my body. I think, and I get a sense like 150 00:07:58,520 --> 00:08:01,440 Speaker 1: learning to maybe a nor what your body is telling 151 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:04,080 Speaker 1: you about how it's feeling in order to perform in 152 00:08:04,120 --> 00:08:06,200 Speaker 1: the way you have have to. Is that fair to 153 00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:09,880 Speaker 1: say as well? Yeah? Absolutely, Is that common in the 154 00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:14,640 Speaker 1: acting industry, I would think, I think so. I think so. 155 00:08:14,720 --> 00:08:17,760 Speaker 1: I mean, I think there's also there's a sense that 156 00:08:17,840 --> 00:08:20,880 Speaker 1: nothing can stop for a human being, right, Like I 157 00:08:20,920 --> 00:08:24,160 Speaker 1: think in film and television, the idea that anything would 158 00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:28,720 Speaker 1: delay anything for an hour even is inconceivable. So you 159 00:08:28,840 --> 00:08:33,080 Speaker 1: kind of learned to just trudge through your humans. Like 160 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:35,839 Speaker 1: I remember we were just location scoting for this film 161 00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:37,520 Speaker 1: I did in this summer. It was like a hundred 162 00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:39,199 Speaker 1: and eight degrees with the human dex and we were 163 00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:42,920 Speaker 1: trudging through these soy fields and and how much water 164 00:08:43,160 --> 00:08:46,280 Speaker 1: food with us, and we all just kept going and 165 00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:49,560 Speaker 1: like we did that for like hours, and I got 166 00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:51,800 Speaker 1: home and went like, why didn't one of us complain 167 00:08:51,880 --> 00:08:53,800 Speaker 1: about that or stop it. And this was a pretty 168 00:08:53,840 --> 00:08:56,360 Speaker 1: compassionate set compared to most, and we're all pretty aware 169 00:08:56,360 --> 00:08:58,000 Speaker 1: and we had conversations about it all the time, how 170 00:08:58,000 --> 00:09:02,120 Speaker 1: do we make this a really safe, welcoming place. But 171 00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:04,840 Speaker 1: ultimately nobody wanted to be the one to say, like 172 00:09:05,520 --> 00:09:08,520 Speaker 1: it's too hot, I need water or I need food. 173 00:09:08,600 --> 00:09:11,600 Speaker 1: And it's like we had created an environment very consciously 174 00:09:12,280 --> 00:09:15,400 Speaker 1: that was to be humane. It's like this thing switches 175 00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:18,920 Speaker 1: on you go into like soldier mode or something where 176 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:20,400 Speaker 1: you're just you got to be a trooper. And I 177 00:09:20,520 --> 00:09:22,520 Speaker 1: certainly have that from being a child actor. It's like 178 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:25,360 Speaker 1: you can't be the one to delay or stop anything. 179 00:09:25,400 --> 00:09:27,959 Speaker 1: And I think it just creates the possibility for a 180 00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:30,120 Speaker 1: lot of really big problems on sets. You know, I 181 00:09:30,160 --> 00:09:32,240 Speaker 1: sa a lot of pressure if you don't mind it. 182 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:34,680 Speaker 1: Like I think the incident that's coming to mind, which 183 00:09:34,720 --> 00:09:36,800 Speaker 1: you relay in the book, is when you were nine 184 00:09:36,880 --> 00:09:39,080 Speaker 1: years old and starring in this film that was directed 185 00:09:39,080 --> 00:09:41,080 Speaker 1: by Terry Gilliam. Would you mind saying a little bit 186 00:09:41,120 --> 00:09:43,280 Speaker 1: about what that set experience was like so that we 187 00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:47,400 Speaker 1: can you know, picture what you're saying. Yeah, so I 188 00:09:47,440 --> 00:09:49,160 Speaker 1: actually lot as a kid and one of the main 189 00:09:49,559 --> 00:09:51,959 Speaker 1: parts I did was the role of Sally Salt in 190 00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:54,240 Speaker 1: the Adventures of barrenman Chausen, which was directed by Terry 191 00:09:54,280 --> 00:09:58,080 Speaker 1: Gilliam when I was eight, and it was a production that, 192 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:00,839 Speaker 1: you know, notoriously spiral that of control. There was a 193 00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:02,720 Speaker 1: book written about it called Losing the Light. I mean, 194 00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:06,200 Speaker 1: it was like one of those big disastrous movie stories 195 00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:08,760 Speaker 1: about a production gone awry, and there were a lot 196 00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:11,559 Speaker 1: of special effects, there were a lot of stunts, and 197 00:10:11,679 --> 00:10:15,720 Speaker 1: many times things felt wildly out of control and dangerous, 198 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:19,240 Speaker 1: and you know, some of those incidents involved explosives going 199 00:10:19,280 --> 00:10:21,600 Speaker 1: off really close to me. And there was an incident 200 00:10:21,679 --> 00:10:24,440 Speaker 1: in a boat where we're in a rowboat with a 201 00:10:24,440 --> 00:10:28,000 Speaker 1: few actors and a horse, and explosives were going off 202 00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:30,120 Speaker 1: in a water tank beside the horse and the boat, 203 00:10:30,200 --> 00:10:32,160 Speaker 1: and it spook the horse and it started backing up 204 00:10:32,160 --> 00:10:35,200 Speaker 1: into us, and the rider took it overboard, and that 205 00:10:35,280 --> 00:10:37,680 Speaker 1: surfaced another explosive that went off really close to me, 206 00:10:37,760 --> 00:10:39,760 Speaker 1: and I went to hospital, and you know, there were 207 00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:42,760 Speaker 1: a lot of really terrifying things that happened on that set. 208 00:10:43,240 --> 00:10:46,760 Speaker 1: Um So I kind of grew up with this feeling 209 00:10:46,800 --> 00:10:51,040 Speaker 1: of a set being a very unstable, scary place, but 210 00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:57,000 Speaker 1: that it was absolutely not my right to stop what 211 00:10:57,040 --> 00:11:00,800 Speaker 1: was in motion, no matter how unsafe it became, and that, 212 00:11:01,160 --> 00:11:04,199 Speaker 1: you know, that became somewhat ingrained. And so I think 213 00:11:04,200 --> 00:11:06,360 Speaker 1: I've spent a lot of time as a filmmaker trying 214 00:11:06,400 --> 00:11:09,839 Speaker 1: to unpack those instincts that make you want to keep 215 00:11:09,880 --> 00:11:12,400 Speaker 1: going when you should really stop, and to try to 216 00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:16,480 Speaker 1: kind of reorient what the priorities and focus need to 217 00:11:16,480 --> 00:11:18,480 Speaker 1: be when you are responsible for a whole bunch of 218 00:11:18,520 --> 00:11:20,600 Speaker 1: other human beings. But you know, I don't think I'm 219 00:11:20,600 --> 00:11:22,640 Speaker 1: always successful at it. It's like it's just like a 220 00:11:22,679 --> 00:11:25,079 Speaker 1: work in progress all the time. What made you want 221 00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:26,520 Speaker 1: to act in the first place, Like, was it was 222 00:11:26,559 --> 00:11:28,200 Speaker 1: it your choice when you were a really small kid. 223 00:11:28,280 --> 00:11:31,160 Speaker 1: Was it something that you wanted to do? I mean 224 00:11:31,559 --> 00:11:33,839 Speaker 1: the story I was told as a kid, was I 225 00:11:33,880 --> 00:11:38,160 Speaker 1: desperately wanted to do it? My parents were in the industry, 226 00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:40,840 Speaker 1: you know, my mom was a casting director. My gut 227 00:11:40,840 --> 00:11:44,200 Speaker 1: is it probably happened a little bit more organically in 228 00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:46,360 Speaker 1: terms of her breaking and for an audition than that. 229 00:11:46,920 --> 00:11:49,280 Speaker 1: But certainly I think they were getting something out of it, 230 00:11:49,360 --> 00:11:51,520 Speaker 1: Like I think they were getting access to a world 231 00:11:51,640 --> 00:11:53,600 Speaker 1: that they wanted access to. I think they were excited 232 00:11:53,640 --> 00:11:55,400 Speaker 1: for me to get access to a world that had 233 00:11:55,400 --> 00:11:58,120 Speaker 1: been hard for them to get access to. There was 234 00:11:58,200 --> 00:12:01,280 Speaker 1: nothing malicious about my parents, and they were very loving, 235 00:12:01,640 --> 00:12:04,520 Speaker 1: great people. But I do think it's possible to get 236 00:12:04,520 --> 00:12:06,400 Speaker 1: carried away, Like, especially when a kid has a certain 237 00:12:06,400 --> 00:12:10,000 Speaker 1: measure of success, it can get hard to track how 238 00:12:10,080 --> 00:12:12,080 Speaker 1: much of this is my kid's passion and how much 239 00:12:12,600 --> 00:12:14,000 Speaker 1: am I getting out of it. I think that can 240 00:12:14,040 --> 00:12:17,640 Speaker 1: be really easy to lose track of. Yeah, I'm interested 241 00:12:17,679 --> 00:12:22,960 Speaker 1: to know. I guess how you made the transition from 242 00:12:22,960 --> 00:12:24,960 Speaker 1: acting when you were a kid to the choices that 243 00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:29,160 Speaker 1: you made for yourself as an adult. Because can imagine 244 00:12:29,160 --> 00:12:31,320 Speaker 1: a world where you could have thought, I want to 245 00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:33,400 Speaker 1: be the hollywoodist actor that I can be, Like, now 246 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:35,520 Speaker 1: that I'm doing it and I'm in this industry, I'm 247 00:12:35,760 --> 00:12:38,400 Speaker 1: I'm going to go for it. Tell me about, like 248 00:12:39,160 --> 00:12:42,240 Speaker 1: how you decided what was going to be of interest 249 00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:46,320 Speaker 1: to you as an adult if you continued acting well. 250 00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:48,400 Speaker 1: I think one of the advantages of being a child 251 00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:52,160 Speaker 1: actor and seeing you know, big Hollywood productions completely out 252 00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:55,760 Speaker 1: of control and seeing how kind of disposable people's well 253 00:12:55,840 --> 00:12:58,040 Speaker 1: being was at a very early age on sets Is. 254 00:12:58,080 --> 00:13:00,719 Speaker 1: It made me really skept a call, which I think 255 00:13:00,800 --> 00:13:03,560 Speaker 1: was really helpful and really healthy as an adult in 256 00:13:03,679 --> 00:13:06,040 Speaker 1: terms of making choices, Like, I think I was really 257 00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:10,960 Speaker 1: conscious I had a really really active bullshit detector. I 258 00:13:11,080 --> 00:13:13,800 Speaker 1: knew that I didn't want to be really famous. I 259 00:13:13,880 --> 00:13:16,960 Speaker 1: knew that I wanted to if I was going to 260 00:13:16,960 --> 00:13:18,760 Speaker 1: be involved in this industry at all, which I think 261 00:13:18,960 --> 00:13:21,880 Speaker 1: I had a lot of cynicism about generally. I knew 262 00:13:21,880 --> 00:13:23,480 Speaker 1: that I wanted to be on projects that I had 263 00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:26,080 Speaker 1: felt had some meaning or something to say, or at 264 00:13:26,120 --> 00:13:31,600 Speaker 1: least would be in connection with people that weren't single 265 00:13:31,679 --> 00:13:34,319 Speaker 1: focus who had a sense of humanity about them. So 266 00:13:34,600 --> 00:13:37,000 Speaker 1: I think it really helped shape the kinds of decisions 267 00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:41,760 Speaker 1: I made, and then certainly as a filmmaker, Um, I 268 00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:44,960 Speaker 1: really want to know why I'm making what I'm making, like, 269 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:47,000 Speaker 1: I really want to know who it's serving and why 270 00:13:47,080 --> 00:13:50,800 Speaker 1: and how. So it's got to have meaning for me, 271 00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:52,560 Speaker 1: It's got to have a purpose, that has to have 272 00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:55,240 Speaker 1: a reason for being. I think the gratitude for just 273 00:13:55,360 --> 00:13:58,560 Speaker 1: being here is is slowly dawning on me as an 274 00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:00,920 Speaker 1: adult and as I get older, but it's taken a 275 00:14:00,920 --> 00:14:03,080 Speaker 1: long time to get here, If I can say so, 276 00:14:03,120 --> 00:14:05,120 Speaker 1: I think that's why your work is so good, Like 277 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:07,960 Speaker 1: it's made for the sake of having something to say, 278 00:14:08,080 --> 00:14:10,120 Speaker 1: rather than for the sake of making something or or 279 00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:12,760 Speaker 1: anything else. I mean this, this shouldn't really be remarkable, 280 00:14:12,760 --> 00:14:15,640 Speaker 1: but it kind of is that you. You made your 281 00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:18,920 Speaker 1: you directed your first film when you were in your 282 00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:21,840 Speaker 1: mid twenties, and I say it's remarkable because it's quite young, 283 00:14:21,960 --> 00:14:25,800 Speaker 1: especially for a female filmmaker. The film Away from Her, 284 00:14:25,800 --> 00:14:28,120 Speaker 1: which was so beautiful. What was it like to actually 285 00:14:29,160 --> 00:14:33,880 Speaker 1: get that film made. I had been trying for years 286 00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:36,360 Speaker 1: to get a film made before that one, and it 287 00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:39,120 Speaker 1: was really hard at first. I think the idea of 288 00:14:39,160 --> 00:14:42,800 Speaker 1: a young actress making a movie was really hard for 289 00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:44,400 Speaker 1: people to wrap their heads around. Like there are a 290 00:14:44,440 --> 00:14:47,920 Speaker 1: lot of amazing young actresses making movies now. But then 291 00:14:47,960 --> 00:14:50,280 Speaker 1: it was like if you were a male actor trying 292 00:14:50,280 --> 00:14:54,080 Speaker 1: to direct, it was treated very, very differently, and I 293 00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:56,280 Speaker 1: think people thought it was like some hobby or something 294 00:14:56,320 --> 00:15:01,160 Speaker 1: I was trying. Yeah, so I tried to make one 295 00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:03,200 Speaker 1: movie for like years, and then it was I was 296 00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:05,640 Speaker 1: turned down in more and more humiliating ways by Telefilm, 297 00:15:05,640 --> 00:15:08,920 Speaker 1: our government film ending agency, and finally I I wrote 298 00:15:08,960 --> 00:15:12,239 Speaker 1: away from her quite quickly, and I gave myself a deadline, 299 00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:14,920 Speaker 1: and the deadline was like something absurd, like in six 300 00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:17,240 Speaker 1: months from now, if this film isn't green light, I'm 301 00:15:17,240 --> 00:15:18,880 Speaker 1: not going to try to direct again, Like I just 302 00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:21,160 Speaker 1: can't do this anymore. And it turned out it was 303 00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:23,920 Speaker 1: that kind of energy that's sort of nothing to lose, 304 00:15:23,960 --> 00:15:25,800 Speaker 1: do or die energy that it took to actually get 305 00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:28,920 Speaker 1: a movie financed. And then I had champions, like then 306 00:15:28,920 --> 00:15:30,880 Speaker 1: there was this big changing of the guard at Telephone, 307 00:15:30,880 --> 00:15:33,000 Speaker 1: which was the film funding agency at the time, and 308 00:15:33,080 --> 00:15:36,320 Speaker 1: then it came together quite quickly. But certainly there was 309 00:15:36,360 --> 00:15:38,840 Speaker 1: a lot of you know, not always being taken seriously, 310 00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:42,200 Speaker 1: like thankfully my closest collaborators did. And I was surrounded 311 00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:44,760 Speaker 1: by both really supportive women and also really great men 312 00:15:44,840 --> 00:15:47,920 Speaker 1: who who took me really seriously and helped me just 313 00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:52,360 Speaker 1: sort of assume that leadership role which I was nervous about. 314 00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:56,000 Speaker 1: But in terms of financiers and like sort of people 315 00:15:56,000 --> 00:15:59,840 Speaker 1: on the outside and around it, you know, you're sort 316 00:15:59,880 --> 00:16:02,400 Speaker 1: of where you were being watched like this little ingenue 317 00:16:02,440 --> 00:16:07,520 Speaker 1: trying to trying something on, and yeah, it was it 318 00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:10,200 Speaker 1: was interesting, And it was interesting also to go from 319 00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:14,600 Speaker 1: being an actress who people kind of humored to somebody 320 00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:18,120 Speaker 1: who was in a position where, you know, you could 321 00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:20,640 Speaker 1: really feel what people thought of you and felt about you, 322 00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:23,440 Speaker 1: and it was it was healthy. But you know, a 323 00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:26,760 Speaker 1: bit of a shocked bassist. Yeah, I bet at what 324 00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:30,040 Speaker 1: point did you feel like you had earned people's respect? Well, 325 00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:31,960 Speaker 1: you know, I'd made a bunch of short films at 326 00:16:31,960 --> 00:16:34,240 Speaker 1: that point, and I'd slowly, through the crewing of those 327 00:16:34,240 --> 00:16:36,600 Speaker 1: short films, found my people and found the people that 328 00:16:37,280 --> 00:16:40,120 Speaker 1: we're like really trying to create a space for me 329 00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:42,080 Speaker 1: to find myself as a filmmaker. So I found my 330 00:16:42,160 --> 00:16:44,080 Speaker 1: D O P and my first A D and so 331 00:16:44,200 --> 00:16:47,480 Speaker 1: I did feel like I had an incredibly supportive team 332 00:16:47,520 --> 00:16:50,000 Speaker 1: when I was actually on the floor of that film, 333 00:16:50,040 --> 00:16:52,520 Speaker 1: and Julie Christie and Olympdocacus like these were people who 334 00:16:52,520 --> 00:16:55,440 Speaker 1: had been kind of mentoring me and pushing me forward. 335 00:16:55,640 --> 00:16:59,360 Speaker 1: And I also think that I hugely benefited from those 336 00:16:59,480 --> 00:17:02,680 Speaker 1: very un usual experience I had had, which is that 337 00:17:02,760 --> 00:17:05,520 Speaker 1: I'd worked with a few female filmmakers as a young actor, 338 00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:07,639 Speaker 1: which again it's not a big deal now to have 339 00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:09,840 Speaker 1: worked with female filmmakers it was a really big deal then, 340 00:17:09,920 --> 00:17:12,040 Speaker 1: like to have worked with Katherine Bigelow, to have worked 341 00:17:12,040 --> 00:17:15,840 Speaker 1: with Isabel Quichet, to have these models, and as soon 342 00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:19,639 Speaker 1: as I expressed the slightest interest in directing, they just 343 00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:22,320 Speaker 1: sort of threw their bodies behind me and pushed, you know, 344 00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:24,679 Speaker 1: like it was just like, you know, being a female 345 00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:29,400 Speaker 1: filmmaker twenty years ago was really freaking hard. It's it's 346 00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:31,800 Speaker 1: hard now, but it was a lot harder than and 347 00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:35,000 Speaker 1: they were just like, here's okay, you're a dog with 348 00:17:35,040 --> 00:17:37,680 Speaker 1: a bone. Don't let the bone go. Everyone's going to 349 00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:39,480 Speaker 1: try to take away from you. Remember Catherine Bigge was 350 00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:41,320 Speaker 1: like this, everyone will try to take the bone away 351 00:17:41,320 --> 00:17:44,199 Speaker 1: from you. Hold onto the bone, and like it was 352 00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:46,440 Speaker 1: such great advice, and that is kind of what it took. 353 00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:48,320 Speaker 1: It was like people are trying to get the bone 354 00:17:48,359 --> 00:17:51,240 Speaker 1: away one of the phone and Isabel just going okay, 355 00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:53,159 Speaker 1: what's next, what's next? You know, Like there was this 356 00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:55,840 Speaker 1: sense of women who are a bit older than me 357 00:17:56,359 --> 00:18:00,200 Speaker 1: shoving me forward. And I think that's ultimately the real 358 00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:03,240 Speaker 1: reason why I made a film in my mid twenties 359 00:18:03,280 --> 00:18:05,040 Speaker 1: at a time when it was unusual for a young 360 00:18:05,119 --> 00:18:07,720 Speaker 1: actress to make a film because I had had these 361 00:18:07,760 --> 00:18:11,240 Speaker 1: female mentors, I had seen it modeled. They put that 362 00:18:11,400 --> 00:18:14,679 Speaker 1: energy into encouraging me, and I think that's sort of everything. 363 00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:16,879 Speaker 1: You know, when you are part of a group of 364 00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:20,320 Speaker 1: people that's underrepresented, you need those people ahead of you 365 00:18:20,359 --> 00:18:22,760 Speaker 1: and behind you shoving you forward. Yeah, and you need 366 00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:26,440 Speaker 1: to not not let go of that bone. I want 367 00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:29,960 Speaker 1: to come back to acting for just a second in 368 00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:32,639 Speaker 1: your adult life, because in getting ready to talk to you, 369 00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:35,080 Speaker 1: I watched this clip of you on a Canadian talk 370 00:18:35,119 --> 00:18:38,720 Speaker 1: show called John Division from back in the day. I 371 00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:40,960 Speaker 1: was like, I grew up in cann It's a beloved 372 00:18:41,040 --> 00:18:44,240 Speaker 1: TV show and you're so cool on it. You're seventeen 373 00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:48,560 Speaker 1: years old. And you said, um, I've am quoting you. 374 00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:51,359 Speaker 1: I've never been a good actor or had this great talent. 375 00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:54,280 Speaker 1: I've just sort of taken sides of myself at different 376 00:18:54,320 --> 00:18:57,760 Speaker 1: times and toyed with them. But I don't think it's 377 00:18:57,800 --> 00:19:00,760 Speaker 1: a great talent that's in my blood or something. And 378 00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:02,159 Speaker 1: I heard that and I was like, wait, isn't that 379 00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:05,720 Speaker 1: what acting? Is that what acting is for some people? 380 00:19:05,720 --> 00:19:07,159 Speaker 1: I don't know what do you make of What do 381 00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:10,520 Speaker 1: you make of that? Now that you've acted a lot 382 00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:14,200 Speaker 1: as an adult and also directed other people. Yeah, that's 383 00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:19,280 Speaker 1: so interesting. I don't know. I mean, yeah, I guess 384 00:19:19,320 --> 00:19:23,399 Speaker 1: it can be what acting is, although it's funny, like 385 00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:25,920 Speaker 1: I directed this film the summer called Women Talking, and 386 00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:30,040 Speaker 1: the actors in this film were just machines, like they 387 00:19:30,040 --> 00:19:32,640 Speaker 1: were acting machines like they were. It was Claire Foy 388 00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:36,199 Speaker 1: and Jesse Buckley and Rooney Mara and Sheila McCarthy and 389 00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:39,879 Speaker 1: Judith Ivy and Michelle McCloud and it was just like 390 00:19:40,359 --> 00:19:45,160 Speaker 1: Ben Wishaw and Francis McDormand, and like they were just 391 00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:51,439 Speaker 1: like these geniuses. And I was watching the way they 392 00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:54,280 Speaker 1: were working, and I really do think there's something fundamentally 393 00:19:54,320 --> 00:19:56,000 Speaker 1: different about what I used to do as an actor 394 00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:57,480 Speaker 1: when I was acting on what they're doing. And I 395 00:19:57,520 --> 00:20:01,080 Speaker 1: think what they're doing is like pushing themselves to like 396 00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:05,399 Speaker 1: the absolute outer or limit of what is possible in 397 00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:09,760 Speaker 1: terms of like embodying another human being and risking everything, 398 00:20:09,920 --> 00:20:14,080 Speaker 1: like risking everything psychologically and emotionally to get where they 399 00:20:14,119 --> 00:20:16,840 Speaker 1: need to go. I didn't do that as an actor. 400 00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:18,560 Speaker 1: I mean, i'd like to think if I ever went 401 00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:20,000 Speaker 1: back to acting one day, and I don't know if 402 00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:22,159 Speaker 1: I will, but if I did that, I would be 403 00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:25,520 Speaker 1: willing to take those kinds of risks with myself. But again, 404 00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:27,760 Speaker 1: because of the experience I had as a child where 405 00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:30,359 Speaker 1: I felt like both my emotions were kind of exploited 406 00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:33,760 Speaker 1: and my physical safety was taken for granted, I had 407 00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:36,520 Speaker 1: limits on what I was going to give. So I 408 00:20:36,560 --> 00:20:39,639 Speaker 1: think I got good at doing a couple of things, 409 00:20:39,920 --> 00:20:42,480 Speaker 1: you know, like I could. I could kind of had 410 00:20:42,520 --> 00:20:44,399 Speaker 1: a couple of things I could do pretty well, but 411 00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:49,400 Speaker 1: I didn't ever explode my sense of myself or risk 412 00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:54,600 Speaker 1: myself to like embody an emotion I couldn't predict coming 413 00:20:54,680 --> 00:20:57,840 Speaker 1: upon me in a scene, and watching great actors do 414 00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:01,639 Speaker 1: that is electrifying. If I ever did go back to acting, 415 00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:03,320 Speaker 1: I wouldn't do it unless I felt like I was 416 00:21:03,359 --> 00:21:07,280 Speaker 1: prepared to do that. So I think that's maybe what 417 00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:10,320 Speaker 1: I meant in that quote is like I was staying 418 00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:13,080 Speaker 1: in a zone that was comfortable for me, and I 419 00:21:13,119 --> 00:21:16,080 Speaker 1: think that I I would like to think if I 420 00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:17,960 Speaker 1: could do that part of my life over that, I 421 00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:24,000 Speaker 1: would I would push myself more in risk more. That's 422 00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:27,880 Speaker 1: actor and author Sarah Paulli. If you like conversations with 423 00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:32,320 Speaker 1: skilled actor turned directors, check out our episode with Maggie Gillenhall. 424 00:21:33,040 --> 00:21:36,960 Speaker 1: The thing I like love about the few roles that 425 00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:40,200 Speaker 1: I've done that I feel the most proud of. Um 426 00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:42,720 Speaker 1: that I think I executed the best. I think are 427 00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:48,159 Speaker 1: actually sort of the most human people, so maybe the 428 00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:52,000 Speaker 1: most conventional in terms of being like we actually are. 429 00:21:52,040 --> 00:21:54,679 Speaker 1: And I know the woman in the movie does things 430 00:21:54,800 --> 00:21:57,280 Speaker 1: that many of us would never ever do, but in 431 00:21:57,359 --> 00:22:00,440 Speaker 1: so many other ways I relate to her so much much. 432 00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:04,720 Speaker 1: You can hear more of alex conversation with Maggie Gillenhall 433 00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:07,880 Speaker 1: in our archives and Here's the Thing dot org. After 434 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:10,240 Speaker 1: the break, I talked to Sarah Paully about her decision 435 00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:13,000 Speaker 1: to finally come forward with a me too story she's 436 00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:26,760 Speaker 1: kept private for decades. Hey, I'm Talia sh Langer, and 437 00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:29,679 Speaker 1: you're listening to Here's the Thing. In the nineties and 438 00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:33,720 Speaker 1: the auts, Sarah Pauli was a celebrated actor. It seems 439 00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:35,280 Speaker 1: like she was at the height of her career and 440 00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:38,200 Speaker 1: she could have had any rules she wanted, but instead 441 00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:41,800 Speaker 1: Sarah walked away from acting. I wanted to know why. 442 00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:45,080 Speaker 1: This is one of these questions where like it's sort 443 00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:46,760 Speaker 1: of like writing the essays in this book where I 444 00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:48,639 Speaker 1: feel like I suddenly have a whole bunch of answers 445 00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:50,640 Speaker 1: I didn't expect to have to that question, like, oh, 446 00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:53,640 Speaker 1: I haven't unpacked this. I mean, on the one hand, 447 00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:56,000 Speaker 1: it's like I had discovered directing and I was in 448 00:22:56,080 --> 00:22:59,040 Speaker 1: love with writing and directing, and I was like, this 449 00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:01,080 Speaker 1: is what my priority, he is, And so I always 450 00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:03,840 Speaker 1: knew that was the the direction I was moving in. 451 00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:06,960 Speaker 1: But why I stopped acting entirely was I had a 452 00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:10,359 Speaker 1: couple of really bad experiences towards the end of my 453 00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:16,080 Speaker 1: acting career um with uh, really insensitive people and really 454 00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:21,640 Speaker 1: vulnerable situations where things were handled really badly and really insensitively, 455 00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:25,280 Speaker 1: and I just had this moment where I thought, I'm 456 00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:31,479 Speaker 1: not I'm not going to put myself in this kind 457 00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:34,200 Speaker 1: of situation again. And it was like a time, you know, 458 00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:38,000 Speaker 1: was this is pre me too, and pre these conversations 459 00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:41,040 Speaker 1: about bullying on sets and safety on sets, which thank god, 460 00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:43,679 Speaker 1: are happening finally, but at that time they weren't. And 461 00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:45,679 Speaker 1: so I just thought, this behavior is going to go 462 00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:49,240 Speaker 1: on forever, nobody's going to be accountable, and I'm just 463 00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:50,919 Speaker 1: going to be expected to kind of suck it up. 464 00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:52,320 Speaker 1: And I'm not going to do it anymore. And I've 465 00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:54,240 Speaker 1: got this other job that I love, which is directing, 466 00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:57,320 Speaker 1: where I have some agency over my working conditions and 467 00:23:57,359 --> 00:24:01,040 Speaker 1: how I'm treated, and I'm just not gonna put myself 468 00:24:01,119 --> 00:24:04,440 Speaker 1: in the line of fire anymore. So I removed myself 469 00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:07,399 Speaker 1: based on a couple of really terrible experiences I had 470 00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:09,760 Speaker 1: in a row. I also had a great experience that 471 00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:12,560 Speaker 1: year working with Jacko vandr Mal who directed Mr. Nobody, 472 00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:14,639 Speaker 1: who was the antithesis of that kind of filmmaker, was 473 00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:19,280 Speaker 1: incredibly empathetic and sensitive and passionate, and people's experience making 474 00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:22,520 Speaker 1: the film was far more important to him than the 475 00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:24,760 Speaker 1: film itself, which is something I try to carry with me, 476 00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:27,040 Speaker 1: like I just try to carry in my head because 477 00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:29,000 Speaker 1: I said, how are you managing this? Like we're working 478 00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:31,680 Speaker 1: such civilized hours, people have their kids coming to set. 479 00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:34,560 Speaker 1: You seem to care so much about how everybody is doing, Like, 480 00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:38,119 Speaker 1: how are you managing this? And he said, if this 481 00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:41,920 Speaker 1: film is everything we wanted to be, it'll maybe affect 482 00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:45,159 Speaker 1: a couple of people for a few weeks, hopefully, But 483 00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:48,560 Speaker 1: what we know for certain is that the experience of 484 00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:50,399 Speaker 1: making this film will be with all of us for 485 00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:52,639 Speaker 1: the rest of our lives, so that has to be 486 00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:56,719 Speaker 1: the priority. And I was like, that to me has 487 00:24:56,800 --> 00:25:00,199 Speaker 1: just stayed with me. So it's really But I had 488 00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:04,280 Speaker 1: a couple of other experiences that were really really depressing 489 00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:07,080 Speaker 1: and demoralizing, just in terms of watching where people were 490 00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:09,480 Speaker 1: putting their priorities and how much people couldn't pay attention 491 00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:11,720 Speaker 1: to other people's well being in the middle of of 492 00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:13,879 Speaker 1: making a film. So I went and made my own 493 00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:16,320 Speaker 1: films and was very very happy to do so. I 494 00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:20,600 Speaker 1: had this discussion recently with someone on set where like 495 00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:22,960 Speaker 1: there had been this moment where someone hadn't behaved that well, 496 00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:27,000 Speaker 1: and someone said to me, you know, if that person 497 00:25:28,359 --> 00:25:31,199 Speaker 1: didn't behave that way, you might not be getting the 498 00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:33,840 Speaker 1: job that you wanted, Like that might be what contributes 499 00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:36,000 Speaker 1: to their ability to do their job. And I remember 500 00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:38,040 Speaker 1: saying and I didn't even know I felt this way, 501 00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:39,960 Speaker 1: but the words just like popped out of my mouth 502 00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:43,040 Speaker 1: and I just went Nobody asked me what my priority was, 503 00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:44,919 Speaker 1: like if someone had said to me, you could have 504 00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:49,639 Speaker 1: less of a film. But people, we'll be behaving well 505 00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:53,120 Speaker 1: towards other and treating each other decently, and like that's 506 00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:55,440 Speaker 1: the choice, I absolutely will vote for the latter every 507 00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:57,960 Speaker 1: single time. Like I want to make great films. I'm 508 00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:00,800 Speaker 1: super ambitious for the films that I do make. But 509 00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:04,080 Speaker 1: given the choice, I don't choose the genius over the 510 00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:08,320 Speaker 1: well being. Ever, I will never accept talent as an 511 00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:10,920 Speaker 1: excuse for bullshit. I just won't do it. I don't 512 00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:13,160 Speaker 1: have it in me anymore. And it seems, I mean, 513 00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:16,280 Speaker 1: it seems maybe like people are shifting towards that a 514 00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:19,000 Speaker 1: little bit more as we're opening up these conversations. Maybe 515 00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:21,680 Speaker 1: I think they are. I mean, I think I think 516 00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:24,840 Speaker 1: this is like kind of something I didn't ever expect 517 00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:27,600 Speaker 1: to even see happen, Like in my life, you'vened about 518 00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:29,560 Speaker 1: sexual harassment, Like I just thought, this is something we're 519 00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:32,040 Speaker 1: stuck with, Like I didn't think to say anything about 520 00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:34,000 Speaker 1: it or to you know, you just this was the 521 00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:37,040 Speaker 1: landscape we lived. And so it is amazing to see 522 00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:40,240 Speaker 1: these conversations open up. I'm really excited to see them 523 00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:43,000 Speaker 1: open up more in industries where there isn't a huge 524 00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:45,760 Speaker 1: spotlight shown on them. I mean, I hope that we 525 00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:48,560 Speaker 1: can see a continued progress with this, because it's it's 526 00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:50,560 Speaker 1: a lot easier for us to complain about it given 527 00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:54,080 Speaker 1: the platforms we have. Yeah, well, let's talk, um, if 528 00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:56,120 Speaker 1: you would, about the second essay in the book, which 529 00:26:56,200 --> 00:26:59,040 Speaker 1: is called The Woman Who Stayed Silent. And as much 530 00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:01,480 Speaker 1: as I want to talk about this essay with you, 531 00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:05,040 Speaker 1: I also I want people to read every single word 532 00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:07,439 Speaker 1: of it. The way that you've crafted it, the depth 533 00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:09,320 Speaker 1: of the story that you're telling, and the nuance that 534 00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:12,160 Speaker 1: you're able to bring to the thinking around this essay 535 00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:14,840 Speaker 1: I think is so important. And if you don't mind, 536 00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:17,920 Speaker 1: Sarah's just setting up with the premise of the chapter 537 00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:21,160 Speaker 1: as as much as you're comfortable. Sure, you know, this 538 00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:23,919 Speaker 1: essay took years to write and to think about and 539 00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:27,440 Speaker 1: to choose the exact words for and so really the 540 00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:29,840 Speaker 1: the entirety of the essay itself is the best answer 541 00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:32,639 Speaker 1: to any question about it. But that said, what it 542 00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:35,000 Speaker 1: is about is an experience that I had when I 543 00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:39,119 Speaker 1: was sixteen years old with Gian Gameshi, who was acquitted 544 00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:43,760 Speaker 1: of sexually assaulting multiple women. Just stepping out of the 545 00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:47,040 Speaker 1: interview here for a moment. Gian Gameshi is a Canadian broadcaster. 546 00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:49,920 Speaker 1: He was a prominent radio host at the CBC until 547 00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:54,320 Speaker 1: that year. He was the subject of several sexual assault allegations, 548 00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:58,119 Speaker 1: Gameshi was charged, went to trial and was ultimately acquitted 549 00:27:58,119 --> 00:28:01,240 Speaker 1: of all charges. In and just so you have the 550 00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:05,320 Speaker 1: heads up, the following conversation will contain discussions of circumstances 551 00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:10,960 Speaker 1: surrounding sexual assault. Okay, back to Sarah and the allegations 552 00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:14,160 Speaker 1: when they came forward. We're a really big news story 553 00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:16,920 Speaker 1: in Canada, and I had to make a decision about 554 00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:22,359 Speaker 1: whether or not to come forward. And I spent a 555 00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:25,400 Speaker 1: really long time and a lot of hours with my newborn, 556 00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:27,840 Speaker 1: you know, strapped to me and the carrier and my 557 00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:32,000 Speaker 1: toddler with me asking everybody I knew, and I know 558 00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:33,480 Speaker 1: a lot of lawyers and a lot of people work 559 00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:36,440 Speaker 1: in the criminal justice STU been asking them if I 560 00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:39,440 Speaker 1: should come forward because I felt a deep obligation to 561 00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:42,680 Speaker 1: support the women who had come forward, whose stories sounded 562 00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:45,320 Speaker 1: very similar to my own, And the advice I was 563 00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:47,920 Speaker 1: given across the board was to not come forward, because 564 00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:51,480 Speaker 1: every lawyer I met, but for one, said they would 565 00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:53,959 Speaker 1: never advise a woman that they loved to come forward 566 00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:56,920 Speaker 1: in a sexual assault case based on how are jewous 567 00:28:56,920 --> 00:28:59,960 Speaker 1: and difficult the encounter of the criminal justice system would be, 568 00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:02,920 Speaker 1: how long it would drag on how close so many 569 00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:05,760 Speaker 1: people came to suicide by the time the process was over, 570 00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:08,800 Speaker 1: and knowing what I did about what would lie ahead 571 00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:11,680 Speaker 1: of me and coming forward and having two little kids, 572 00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:14,320 Speaker 1: I made the decision to stay silent. It was a 573 00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:17,440 Speaker 1: really hard decision on a lot of levels. And I 574 00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:20,000 Speaker 1: think the contribution that I wanted to make now, this 575 00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:23,840 Speaker 1: many years later, with having had years to think about 576 00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:27,840 Speaker 1: how I would tell this story, is to shine a 577 00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:33,200 Speaker 1: light on the parallels between the inconsistencies that were pointed 578 00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:35,640 Speaker 1: out in those women's stories and the holes that were 579 00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:39,920 Speaker 1: poked in their memories and characters and my own, Because 580 00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:43,200 Speaker 1: everything that was lobbed at those women on the stand 581 00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:46,480 Speaker 1: in terms of them not be being reliable witnesses to 582 00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:49,280 Speaker 1: the truth, would have been lobbed at me. And the 583 00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:53,680 Speaker 1: impact that trauma has on memory, the way it makes 584 00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:58,080 Speaker 1: us unreliable narrators of the details before and after an 585 00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:00,360 Speaker 1: experience like this, and the way that makes our entire 586 00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:04,640 Speaker 1: stories seem not credible, seemed like a worthwhile contribution because 587 00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:09,080 Speaker 1: what happens when women enter into or anybody with an 588 00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:11,400 Speaker 1: allegation like this, what happens to people when they're on 589 00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:15,040 Speaker 1: the stand, is these inconsistencies, and these problems in our 590 00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:17,760 Speaker 1: memories get lobbed as at us as evidence that the 591 00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:21,440 Speaker 1: thing itself didn't happen. And so my my idea was, 592 00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:23,720 Speaker 1: what if I offer all of that stuff? What if 593 00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:26,440 Speaker 1: I offer up everything I would be cross examined with 594 00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:31,720 Speaker 1: my friendly encounters with him afterwards, my friendly emails with him, 595 00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:35,640 Speaker 1: the way in which my memory didn't capture this part 596 00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:39,720 Speaker 1: or that part at various stages. What if I offered 597 00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:46,640 Speaker 1: the whole, embarrassing, messy, completely commonplace picture of what a 598 00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:50,120 Speaker 1: memory and what an account after a traumatic experience like 599 00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:54,280 Speaker 1: this looks like, hopefully to shine a light on and 600 00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:57,200 Speaker 1: maybe add credibility to all of those people who have 601 00:30:57,280 --> 00:31:00,680 Speaker 1: been discounted because of these inconsistencies. Because at this point 602 00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:02,920 Speaker 1: I don't have a lot to gain by telling the story. 603 00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:05,800 Speaker 1: It's not particularly fun to tell this story, I bet yeah, 604 00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:09,360 Speaker 1: But I feel like there's some contribution to be made 605 00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:13,320 Speaker 1: in saying, here are all the embarrassing parts, and I'm 606 00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:15,960 Speaker 1: still telling the truth. Here all the inconsistencies, and I'm 607 00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:17,840 Speaker 1: still telling the truth. Here is all the mess of 608 00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:20,560 Speaker 1: my memory and why I seem like a total flake, 609 00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:23,360 Speaker 1: and I'm still telling the truth, and so many people 610 00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:25,960 Speaker 1: who have come forward in cases like this have been 611 00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:29,600 Speaker 1: discounted as flake here are not credible because of these details, 612 00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:32,959 Speaker 1: which I think are so commonplace, and I think most 613 00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:36,240 Speaker 1: people who have had experience like this don't actually come 614 00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:38,479 Speaker 1: forward and we don't hear from them, and so I 615 00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:40,680 Speaker 1: kind of wanted to shine a light on what that 616 00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:44,160 Speaker 1: experience looks like and why a point that you made 617 00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:47,240 Speaker 1: here that I have not heard made nearly enough that 618 00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:50,080 Speaker 1: you that you also just sort of hinted at is 619 00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:52,120 Speaker 1: the idea of how people who have been through traumatic 620 00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:55,680 Speaker 1: experiences with somebody can exhibit confusing behavior after the fact. 621 00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:58,160 Speaker 1: And one of the things that you write about is 622 00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:01,280 Speaker 1: being interviewed by Jon who hosting I was working at 623 00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:03,240 Speaker 1: the CBC at that time also, I should say, and 624 00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:06,960 Speaker 1: he was hosting an arts and culture show where he 625 00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:11,120 Speaker 1: interviewed you about, you know, your work, and you write 626 00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:14,680 Speaker 1: in this essay about sort of watching clips of yourself 627 00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:17,360 Speaker 1: and how you diminished yourself in front of him or 628 00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:20,479 Speaker 1: or were giggly or we're sort of warm towards him, 629 00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:22,840 Speaker 1: and you wrote this is a quote. It can seem 630 00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:26,120 Speaker 1: perplexing from the outside, this pool that many women experience 631 00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:28,600 Speaker 1: to make things better for those who have hurt us. 632 00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:33,160 Speaker 1: M hm. And you're such a powerful and talented person, 633 00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:36,400 Speaker 1: it must have taken a lot to say that, and 634 00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:38,240 Speaker 1: then so many of us do this. So where do 635 00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:41,959 Speaker 1: you think that this behavior comes from. I think it 636 00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:44,120 Speaker 1: comes from a lot of places. I think it can 637 00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:47,440 Speaker 1: come from a desire to normalize a situation that's very 638 00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:49,480 Speaker 1: very hard to process, and that's living in a very 639 00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:52,320 Speaker 1: jaggedy place inside us, and to try to make it 640 00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:55,520 Speaker 1: so that it didn't happen. In my case, I think 641 00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:57,640 Speaker 1: it came from fear. I think I was really scared 642 00:32:57,640 --> 00:32:59,600 Speaker 1: of him, and I was really scared of how many 643 00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:02,720 Speaker 1: could be because you know, even in the years following that, 644 00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:05,000 Speaker 1: every time I saw him, he had something mean to say. 645 00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:06,880 Speaker 1: And when somebody has something mean to say to you, 646 00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:10,640 Speaker 1: but the history of your relationship with that person is 647 00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:15,760 Speaker 1: one that was terrifying and violent, that has a different meaning, 648 00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:17,640 Speaker 1: and it affects you and goes through you in a 649 00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:20,320 Speaker 1: different way. So I think I was doing everything I 650 00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:24,680 Speaker 1: could to make things nice for him and to make 651 00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:32,040 Speaker 1: um myself not threatening. I think that people underestimate how 652 00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:37,000 Speaker 1: circuitous behavior can become when we're afraid and when we 653 00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:40,320 Speaker 1: don't know how to process a situation. And at that time, 654 00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:43,800 Speaker 1: there wasn't the same language for these kinds of experiences. 655 00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:46,160 Speaker 1: So it's like we weren't all throwing the word assault around, 656 00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:47,960 Speaker 1: you know what, I mean, Like it was like, what 657 00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:52,120 Speaker 1: the hell happened? I don't know. So I think that 658 00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:55,280 Speaker 1: you know, we know now there's a huge body of 659 00:33:55,360 --> 00:34:00,320 Speaker 1: research that shows us that memory is really fray cured 660 00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:05,280 Speaker 1: by trauma. It's not consistent. We don't remember everything perfectly. 661 00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:07,720 Speaker 1: I mean, I can't count the number of people I 662 00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:12,680 Speaker 1: know who have, after a very terrifying experience with somebody, 663 00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:15,120 Speaker 1: have been nice to them afterwards and it will have 664 00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:19,400 Speaker 1: maintained contact. I mean, I'm I'm sure that a huge 665 00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:24,560 Speaker 1: percentage of these kinds of experiences that happen, there's contact 666 00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:28,880 Speaker 1: that is friendly and that is perplexing from the outside afterwards. 667 00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:31,480 Speaker 1: And I think that if we can't make room for 668 00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:34,440 Speaker 1: the mess of that, we're not going to be hearing 669 00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:36,680 Speaker 1: these stories the way we should be, you know. And 670 00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:38,640 Speaker 1: I think what was what was really hurting about the 671 00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:42,000 Speaker 1: Harvey Weinstein case was there was an expert call to 672 00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:45,759 Speaker 1: talk about the impact that trauma has on memory to 673 00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:49,759 Speaker 1: talk about typical post assault behavior, which can include contact 674 00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:52,480 Speaker 1: like this, and that was a real service. But in 675 00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:55,000 Speaker 1: in the Younga Messi case in Canada, there was no 676 00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:58,319 Speaker 1: such witness called, and those women I feel were really 677 00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:02,040 Speaker 1: hung out to dry and their behavior was made to 678 00:35:02,120 --> 00:35:06,680 Speaker 1: look flaky instead of completely normal. Yeah, it was three 679 00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:09,239 Speaker 1: years before the Harvey Weinstein case. They were also they 680 00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:12,520 Speaker 1: were humiliated. Um the title of the essay, the woman 681 00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:16,080 Speaker 1: who stayed silent carries a weight to it. I guess 682 00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:20,839 Speaker 1: a weight of reckoning with that decision. How are you 683 00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:25,920 Speaker 1: feeling about that decision? I'm feeling good now. I've been 684 00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:28,560 Speaker 1: dreading it. I've been dreading it a lot. I've always 685 00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:30,520 Speaker 1: known I was going to have to tell this story 686 00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:34,839 Speaker 1: at some point and really regretting that because I was. 687 00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:38,800 Speaker 1: I was really scared. I would say that the response 688 00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:41,400 Speaker 1: has been really surprising to me, just the number of 689 00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:45,600 Speaker 1: women who have said, yeah, like this is why I 690 00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:47,880 Speaker 1: didn't come forward in this case. I think if we 691 00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:50,560 Speaker 1: can develop a language around this and have a conversation 692 00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:54,560 Speaker 1: around this where it becomes really understood that people aren't 693 00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:58,400 Speaker 1: going to behave like a cartoon character would after something 694 00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:01,560 Speaker 1: like this happens, to us. I think that's that's an 695 00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:03,560 Speaker 1: exciting conversation to be part of because I think it 696 00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:07,160 Speaker 1: opens the door for a lot of conversations that have 697 00:36:07,239 --> 00:36:10,080 Speaker 1: been hidden to come out. You Know, my question, which 698 00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:13,000 Speaker 1: I ask in the essay is how many women didn't 699 00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:15,240 Speaker 1: come forward in the Harvey Weinstein case, how many women 700 00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:17,399 Speaker 1: didn't come forward in the Gianga Mashi case? Like, we'll 701 00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:20,359 Speaker 1: never know that, but I would hope that if there's 702 00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:22,760 Speaker 1: more of a language and more of a conversation around 703 00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:29,640 Speaker 1: what behavior and memory looks like after trauma, I would 704 00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:33,279 Speaker 1: hope that more people will feel comfortable at some point 705 00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:37,040 Speaker 1: telling these stories about their various traumatic encounters that they've 706 00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:40,320 Speaker 1: had over the years. There are a couple instances in 707 00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:42,680 Speaker 1: in the book where it's it's very clear that the 708 00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:45,520 Speaker 1: very systems that are set up to protect people really 709 00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:48,319 Speaker 1: fail them, you know, in the what you expose about 710 00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:50,160 Speaker 1: the criminal justice system and how it can deal with 711 00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:53,160 Speaker 1: sexual assault cases, also in terms of your experience as 712 00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:55,279 Speaker 1: a child actor and unions that are set up to 713 00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:57,839 Speaker 1: allegedly protect you or who's watching out for you on set, 714 00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:01,960 Speaker 1: and I would understand having experience with the failure of 715 00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:06,200 Speaker 1: those systems firsthand. Could make one a cynical person, but 716 00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:08,520 Speaker 1: it seems to have made you to be a more 717 00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:12,359 Speaker 1: curious person and a more engaged person. Is that fair 718 00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:14,680 Speaker 1: to say? And if so, like, what is it about 719 00:37:14,719 --> 00:37:19,440 Speaker 1: you that that makes that your inclination? Thank you? I'm 720 00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:23,960 Speaker 1: glad that's how come across. I mean, I am curious, 721 00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:27,160 Speaker 1: and I think I'm curious because I fundamentally don't believe 722 00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:29,000 Speaker 1: that there are that many people in this world who 723 00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:30,920 Speaker 1: mean harm. I mean, I think there are a lot 724 00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:32,480 Speaker 1: of people who do harm. I don't think there are 725 00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:34,360 Speaker 1: a lot of people who mean to I guess that 726 00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:36,799 Speaker 1: gives me a certain amount of hope that things can 727 00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:41,279 Speaker 1: shift and change based on conversation and open curiosity. Like 728 00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:44,560 Speaker 1: I actually just have an enormous amount of faith that 729 00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:49,480 Speaker 1: if people knew how to do better, they would like 730 00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:51,600 Speaker 1: even the experience of putting this essay out into the world, 731 00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:55,080 Speaker 1: which I've been dreading for years, and you know, I 732 00:37:55,120 --> 00:37:57,280 Speaker 1: thought that what I would receive was a lot of judgment, 733 00:37:57,480 --> 00:37:59,839 Speaker 1: you know, for not coming forward earlier. I certainly felt 734 00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:03,920 Speaker 1: for myself. So to have that greeted with understanding and 735 00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:06,920 Speaker 1: a conversation and you kind of go like, oh my God, 736 00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:09,880 Speaker 1: like people have a lot of room like people, people 737 00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:13,600 Speaker 1: can be tolerant and expansive and drop their judgment, and 738 00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:16,680 Speaker 1: that's hopeful. I just I mean, even like the people 739 00:38:16,719 --> 00:38:19,359 Speaker 1: in this book, Like I feel like people are kind 740 00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:23,680 Speaker 1: of really interested in telling horror stories about Terry Gilliam 741 00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:25,360 Speaker 1: and I certainly have a few of my own, But 742 00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:28,919 Speaker 1: I I actually don't think he's a monster, and I'm 743 00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:32,279 Speaker 1: I'm not interested in vilifying him, And I'm actually most 744 00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:35,400 Speaker 1: interested to know if there'll ever be a shift in 745 00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:38,839 Speaker 1: that person because he has a really creative brain. He's 746 00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:43,080 Speaker 1: really interesting, he's really alive. There's a real goodness in him. 747 00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:47,480 Speaker 1: That creative energy has not been directed towards his absorption 748 00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:50,440 Speaker 1: of conversations that go in a progressive direction. There's like 749 00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:53,120 Speaker 1: there's a real creative failure in the way he's approaching 750 00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:56,240 Speaker 1: these things. But it's there, Like he's not a monster, 751 00:38:56,440 --> 00:39:00,560 Speaker 1: so you know, he's eighty now, I don't know, like, 752 00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:02,239 Speaker 1: how will you see things in a year? Like we 753 00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:04,719 Speaker 1: can give up on people, it's fair. I think there's 754 00:39:04,719 --> 00:39:06,600 Speaker 1: a lot of evidence to support the end of giving 755 00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:08,279 Speaker 1: up on something like that, but I kind of don't 756 00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:10,759 Speaker 1: want to because I've seen the side of him that 757 00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:12,640 Speaker 1: actually does have empathy. I've seen the side of him 758 00:39:12,640 --> 00:39:15,560 Speaker 1: that's enormously creative, and so I think, like even the 759 00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:17,200 Speaker 1: people I talked about in this book in a not 760 00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:21,399 Speaker 1: flattering way, I'm just not willing to give up just 761 00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:23,880 Speaker 1: it may sound naive, but I also think it's like, 762 00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:28,759 Speaker 1: I don't know how you go forward like without that 763 00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:34,760 Speaker 1: belief that that that's possible. That's writer and director Sarah Paully. 764 00:39:35,280 --> 00:39:38,400 Speaker 1: If you're enjoying this conversation, make sure you subscribe to 765 00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:42,319 Speaker 1: Here's the Thing on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 766 00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:46,040 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. When we come back, 767 00:39:46,600 --> 00:39:49,800 Speaker 1: you'll hear what happened when Sarah Paully turned the tables 768 00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:53,360 Speaker 1: and asked me a question, one that caught me off guard. 769 00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:07,000 Speaker 1: I'm Talia Schlanger. You're listening to Here's the Thing from 770 00:40:07,080 --> 00:40:11,000 Speaker 1: my Heart Radio. I've been speaking with actor, director and 771 00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:14,960 Speaker 1: writer Sarah Polly, whose new book Run Towards the Danger 772 00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:18,120 Speaker 1: reveals some of the more harrowing stories from a life 773 00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:21,440 Speaker 1: lived on stage and screen. As you can tell by 774 00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:25,719 Speaker 1: this point, Sarah Polly is a pretty insightful person, and 775 00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:28,600 Speaker 1: I guess something in the way I asked her about 776 00:40:28,719 --> 00:40:32,440 Speaker 1: her story involving Gian Gomeshi gave her a sense I 777 00:40:32,560 --> 00:40:35,279 Speaker 1: might have a story to tell too, So just as 778 00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:38,080 Speaker 1: we were about to wrap our conversation, she said this, 779 00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:42,080 Speaker 1: can I ask you a question. I'm curious, like, how 780 00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:46,480 Speaker 1: would you describe your reasons for not coming forward? Well, 781 00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:51,920 Speaker 1: I was not assaulted by Jian Gomeshi. Um, And I 782 00:40:51,960 --> 00:40:55,880 Speaker 1: did participate in the investigation internally at CBC that was 783 00:40:55,920 --> 00:41:00,520 Speaker 1: conducted to contribute to evidence of like a pattern of behavior. 784 00:41:00,680 --> 00:41:02,560 Speaker 1: I was an intern. I wanted to be at the 785 00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:07,920 Speaker 1: CBC because of him. Uh. I dreamed of that show 786 00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:12,279 Speaker 1: and I felt so much shame about when he took 787 00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:14,560 Speaker 1: a shining to me going out with him, going to 788 00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:18,960 Speaker 1: his house, and the way he interacted with me physically 789 00:41:19,360 --> 00:41:22,920 Speaker 1: in one of those situations. My entire body was like, 790 00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:24,680 Speaker 1: you need to get away from this man and you 791 00:41:24,719 --> 00:41:29,560 Speaker 1: need to not see him again. Um And I told 792 00:41:29,640 --> 00:41:32,480 Speaker 1: him so. And I was very scared about the first 793 00:41:32,520 --> 00:41:36,240 Speaker 1: time I'm telling this story, uh publicly. I was scared 794 00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:40,120 Speaker 1: for my career, um and for myself. And he was 795 00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:42,279 Speaker 1: extremely powerful at CBC. You know, there was like a 796 00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:45,200 Speaker 1: two story high photograph of his face that I saw 797 00:41:45,239 --> 00:41:48,400 Speaker 1: every single time I walked into that building. And I 798 00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:51,799 Speaker 1: was fresh out of school. So when there was an 799 00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:56,160 Speaker 1: investigation at cbc UM, they asked for people to speak 800 00:41:56,200 --> 00:42:00,000 Speaker 1: to the lawyer who was conducting it, and I saw 801 00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:03,839 Speaker 1: off for myself also the amount of shame that I 802 00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:06,960 Speaker 1: felt even in telling her why I went out with 803 00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:09,600 Speaker 1: him on a date. It was scary enough to go 804 00:42:09,680 --> 00:42:12,880 Speaker 1: through that without having been assaulted, but I can't imagine, 805 00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:15,840 Speaker 1: Like I just got a little glimpse into what it 806 00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:17,920 Speaker 1: might be like to come forward for something like this. 807 00:42:18,360 --> 00:42:20,120 Speaker 1: And then I got I remember I got back to 808 00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:22,000 Speaker 1: my desk and there was an email from our union 809 00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:24,439 Speaker 1: that said, just so you know, if your managers find 810 00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:27,080 Speaker 1: out you took part in this investigation, we don't have 811 00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:30,240 Speaker 1: a lot of ability to protect you. Oh my god. 812 00:42:31,280 --> 00:42:33,240 Speaker 1: And I just remember thinking, all my career in Canadian 813 00:42:33,239 --> 00:42:38,440 Speaker 1: media is over and that's fine. It changed the way 814 00:42:38,960 --> 00:42:43,680 Speaker 1: I am in the workplace for sure, and I got 815 00:42:43,719 --> 00:42:48,960 Speaker 1: really lucky, yeah, and also felt so much shame, so 816 00:42:49,160 --> 00:42:52,480 Speaker 1: much shame. Yeah, it's amazing how we get left with 817 00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:55,359 Speaker 1: the shame instead of the person who's done the really 818 00:42:55,400 --> 00:42:59,279 Speaker 1: awful thing. You know. It's such a And then we 819 00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:01,360 Speaker 1: have I mean, that's one story from a whole lifetime, 820 00:43:01,840 --> 00:43:05,360 Speaker 1: so you know, like that's that's that's that, that's that 821 00:43:05,440 --> 00:43:07,680 Speaker 1: part of things. So but that is the other thing too, 822 00:43:07,719 --> 00:43:10,160 Speaker 1: is you're kind of like, I'm focusing on this story 823 00:43:10,239 --> 00:43:14,120 Speaker 1: because I want to, you know, I want to show 824 00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:16,799 Speaker 1: what the similarities were between my story and these other 825 00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:19,319 Speaker 1: women's stories. But it's like it's not even on the 826 00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:21,120 Speaker 1: scale of things that have happened in my life. I'm 827 00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:24,680 Speaker 1: not sure how much anything, you know that's like what's terrible. 828 00:43:24,680 --> 00:43:27,239 Speaker 1: It's like this, sorry, guys, this isn't actually the big 829 00:43:27,320 --> 00:43:29,080 Speaker 1: trauma on this issue, but that will be in the 830 00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:32,319 Speaker 1: next book maybe. Like it's just like, I mean, it's 831 00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:35,360 Speaker 1: just this war zone, you know, like bi female in 832 00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:38,799 Speaker 1: a professional environment. It's so messed up. It's so messed up. 833 00:43:39,480 --> 00:43:43,120 Speaker 1: It's really messed up. Yeah, and what we've absorbed as 834 00:43:43,239 --> 00:43:46,040 Speaker 1: normal or or just something we have to plow through, 835 00:43:46,200 --> 00:43:49,759 Speaker 1: and we're kind of privileged, like we have these tough 836 00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:53,600 Speaker 1: forms and like this is not even close to the 837 00:43:53,920 --> 00:43:56,560 Speaker 1: as bad as it gets. It's just to even feel 838 00:43:56,880 --> 00:43:59,880 Speaker 1: empowered enough to be able to say, well, if this 839 00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:02,000 Speaker 1: ruins my career, I lose my job. I know, that 840 00:44:02,040 --> 00:44:03,960 Speaker 1: I'll still be okay and I'll find another way around. 841 00:44:03,960 --> 00:44:09,680 Speaker 1: That's an enormous and enormous privilege. Absolutely, Yeah, I feel 842 00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:12,719 Speaker 1: very emotional after what you just told me. So do I. 843 00:44:12,560 --> 00:44:15,240 Speaker 1: I'm grateful to you for asking. I feel I've interviewed 844 00:44:15,239 --> 00:44:19,319 Speaker 1: a lot of people, and people um never, I think 845 00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:21,120 Speaker 1: that's the first time I've been asked a question. Well, 846 00:44:21,160 --> 00:44:23,560 Speaker 1: I could see your face and when you like you. 847 00:44:23,800 --> 00:44:25,760 Speaker 1: At some point when I was talking, you started closing 848 00:44:25,760 --> 00:44:29,320 Speaker 1: your eyes, and then I could see when you were talking. 849 00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:31,560 Speaker 1: I could kind of sense what you weren't saying, and 850 00:44:31,600 --> 00:44:34,160 Speaker 1: so I was like, I didn't want to intrude, but 851 00:44:34,239 --> 00:44:37,040 Speaker 1: I also just wanted to open the space to talk 852 00:44:37,080 --> 00:44:40,800 Speaker 1: a little bit because I, yeah, there's just so many 853 00:44:41,000 --> 00:44:44,040 Speaker 1: people out there who carried these stories around, and I 854 00:44:44,080 --> 00:44:46,200 Speaker 1: think the shame part is just such an important piece 855 00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:50,520 Speaker 1: of the conversation because it's what that's what creates this 856 00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:53,799 Speaker 1: kind of toxic silence around it. You know, thank you 857 00:44:53,920 --> 00:44:56,640 Speaker 1: so much. I could keep here for days and ask 858 00:44:56,680 --> 00:45:00,400 Speaker 1: you a thousand more questions. I'm so tremendously rateful to 859 00:45:00,440 --> 00:45:02,239 Speaker 1: you for writing this book and also for working in 860 00:45:02,239 --> 00:45:05,440 Speaker 1: your career to make things better. Thank you. Thank you 861 00:45:05,600 --> 00:45:10,440 Speaker 1: so much, what a pleasure this was. Thank you. I 862 00:45:10,520 --> 00:45:13,200 Speaker 1: just want to make it clear, Sarah Pauli and I 863 00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:16,360 Speaker 1: had never spoken before this interview, and I had no 864 00:45:16,440 --> 00:45:19,640 Speaker 1: plans to tell my story, certainly not on this podcast. 865 00:45:19,840 --> 00:45:23,720 Speaker 1: But Sarah asked the question, and so I answered. And again, 866 00:45:24,200 --> 00:45:27,640 Speaker 1: I'm not alleging that gian Gameshi did anything illegal towards me. 867 00:45:28,239 --> 00:45:30,920 Speaker 1: That was just my experience of interacting with someone in 868 00:45:30,960 --> 00:45:33,799 Speaker 1: a position of power, and I wanted to share how 869 00:45:33,840 --> 00:45:36,800 Speaker 1: that impacted the way I felt about myself and about 870 00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:40,280 Speaker 1: my career, especially in light of Sarah being so open 871 00:45:40,400 --> 00:45:43,520 Speaker 1: and sharing her own story. We reached out to Gian 872 00:45:43,560 --> 00:45:46,600 Speaker 1: Gameshi's team for comment and did not receive a response. 873 00:45:47,760 --> 00:45:50,840 Speaker 1: Survivors of sexual assault can reach out to the National 874 00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:54,720 Speaker 1: Sexual Assault Hotline at one eight hundred six five six 875 00:45:54,920 --> 00:45:58,600 Speaker 1: four six seven three. That's one eight hundred six five 876 00:45:58,680 --> 00:46:02,759 Speaker 1: six hope. My sincere thanks to Sarah Poulli for an 877 00:46:02,840 --> 00:46:08,560 Speaker 1: unexpected conversation. This episode was produced by Kathleen Russo, Zach McNeice, 878 00:46:08,600 --> 00:46:12,880 Speaker 1: and Maureen Hoban. Our engineer is Frank Imperial. I'm Talia Schlanger. 879 00:46:13,320 --> 00:46:16,480 Speaker 1: Alec Baldwin will be back next week here's the thing. 880 00:46:16,640 --> 00:46:18,400 Speaker 1: Is brought to you by I Heart Radio